Will Black - Get Out Of Your Own Way

If you think you're going to fail at something, you will fail. Like it's you. You have to believe, you have to think you're capable of whatever you put your mind to. And if you so much we just, we get in our own way, we, we stop ourselves before we take any action. It's one of, I mean there are, there's so many influences as far as why we have these limiting beliefs.

Welcome to the Yoga Den. Are you a stressed out cog in the corporate wheel? Do you find yourself asking what am I doing and why am I doing it? Then the Yoga Den is the place for you. I'm your host, Ryan Spence, AKA the big law dropout, writer, yoga teacher and your guide on the path to well being through yoga. Yoga helped me find my purpose, change my mindset and my life, and in this podcast I'll share how to live a life of intention, not real reaction. Each week I'll be talking to a variety of guests and covering pearls of wisdom to help you figure out where you're heading to, where you really want to go. I won't find your purpose for you, but I'll help you plan the route. So sit back and grab a drink. I've been expecting you. Hello. Welcome to episode 12 of the Yoga Den podcast. This week in the Yoga Den we have our first author, Will Black. Will is founder of corporate wellness business the Balanced Self, a company that delivers yoga meditation and self care practices to corporate employees to help them find balance in their lives. From early in his university time, Will knew that he didn't want to follow the path of a corporate career. But it took him some time to figure out that it wasn't enough to just be running away from something. To truly get on the path to finding a fulfilling life, he had to be running to something. After suffering bouts of depression and anxiety for many years, Will found meditation and yoga and headed down a spiritual path of self inquiry and personal development, resulting in huge shifts in his mindset. As Will and I discuss, mindset is often overlooked but is a key factor in developing the awareness to get out of your own way and take steps to live the life you want to live, not the life everyone else thinks you should live. Will's an interesting soul with a killer laugh, a fascinating story, and a willingness to be of service to those who need it. In this episode we talk about his yoga journey, knowing your worth, shedding limiting beliefs, changing the corporate world through wellness, and also his upcoming book, Dualities insights into getting your shit together. What a great title. We also Touch on the four day Ayahuasca retreat that Will attended in Costa Rica. In the interest of time, we continue that discussion in more detail in a separate bonus episode that's available over on my Patreon page. Stick around to the end to find out how to access that episode and more exclusive content. But for now, go ahead, grab a drink and let's do this. So today in the yoga den we have Will. How you doing, Will?

I'm great, Ryan, thank you for having me.

No problem. I'm really looking forward to sort of getting into it with you. So as I do with all of my guests who are not in the den with me. Where are you calling from and what can you see out of your window?

I am here in Denver, Colorado. It's the middle of the night right here, so I'm just looking at a black backyard, but stars are out. It's a nice, cool, beautiful evening.

Okay. It's a shame you didn't see any nice mountain views. I've been to Colorado once. I went there skiing up in Aspen many, many years ago. It was beautiful. So I'd love to come back one day.

Yeah, Aspen is absolutely lovely. You can see the like during the daytime. You can see the snow covered peaks a little bit, but yeah, not, not much from the city.

Okay, no problem. Always good to know, to get a picture as to where, where people are calling from. So a little bit different interview here in terms of some of some of the previous guests in that you, although you've had some sort of changes and some shifts in your life which have taken you to, to where you are now. Your, your background isn't in the corporate world, but actually you used to be a mo. So which sounds fascinating to me. So tell me about that. How did you get into that and where did it take you? I know you've been to some amazing places with that role.

I did, yeah. Like many yogis, many people on their journey, mine was not a straightforward path. During my time in university, I was really struggling to sort of find my way. I was bouncing between majors, transferring between schools and at one point I just decided to take a break from everything. I went on a couple different trips with some phenomenal organizations. One was Outward Bound here in the Rockies and the other was Knowles where I did a month and a half long journey through the Himalayas. Was 10 of us out in the mountain, out on, out on glaciers, really just immersed and surrounded in just this phenomenal nature. And it was really through those experiences that I was really captivated by the outdoors. Really gave my life a sense of meaning and direction. And so for a few years during summers and during breaks, I was training and in different schools for mountain guiding. Eventually that just, I found mountain guiding to be a career that really requires your full attention. Really, really hard to find balance. And so eventually that led me to stepping away from yoga or stepping away from mountain guidings. I began, I finished my degree and then it was shortly thereafter I stepped into YTT, finished my 200 hour training and then I've been teaching yoga ever since.

Cool. And so in terms of the, the guiding just because it's fascinating to me. So the Himalayas, I mean to anyone the Himalayas sounds amazing. It's like an iconic setting. And I know you also spent some time in, in Tasmania as well. Tell me about that.

Yeah, I mean the Himalayas are fascinating. Where you're looking out on these picturesque views like these mountains that their foothills are like the size of the Rockies here in Colorado. And when you're out there it almost seems surreal. It's so different than anything we experience on a normal day to day basis. It's really just this grounding captivating, just beyond spectacular beauty. And especially with when you're out there with just like 10 people, you spend 24 hours with each other, you sleep together, you cook meals together, like you really get to know them in a deep way that is just like not possible in our normal day lives. And yeah, Tasmania, Tasmania is different but also spectacularly beautiful. It's this little island not very well known here in the us. When, when I was first recommended to go travel there, I was like, oh, I don't, I don't know about Africa. And they were like Tanzania. And I was like ah, yeah, you're right. But Tassie is a really special place. It's, I think it's like something like 50% national parks. There was like rock climbing, rafting and surfing. Again, just this really beautiful isolated pocket of the world and just like the kindest, best people.

Great. So I know that you, you'd said that, that the guiding wasn't really your calling but what brought you to it initially? What was it about, about being a guide that sort of appealed to you?

I think initially having just spent so many years really lost without direction. Mountain guiding was, and that lifestyle was just something that brought a lot of like clarity and focus. There was something to living so simply of taking in nature, packing your bags, packing your meals. It really gave me a sense of purpose. It was something I was good at. It was excruciatingly challenging. Physically. But at the end of the day when you throw down your pack and you set up your tent and you're eating a bowl of ramen or a bowl of soup and you're just like cuddled up around a fire, like it's really just this immense satisfaction and a sense of peace. And it was, yeah. Mountain guiding is just so difficult to have the rest of life, to have the deep friendships, to have family, to have stability. It was really, really hard to keep those in balance. And at some point I just felt more called to have the other aspects of life. And living someplace like Colorado is wonderful where weekends I can camp, I can explore, and then I can come back to the city and have my friends and family all, all here.

And what I find interesting about that is that, I mean for us who haven't been in that world, I mean the thought of being a mountain guy just sounds fascinating. You get to go to all these amazing places. You just painted a beautiful picture there as to what that's like. But the reasons why it wasn't for you have some parallels with people who are in a corporate job. Because the whole thing about not being able to have those deep friendships or maintain those deep friendships because you're always working, not being able to find balance, all of those things definitely have parallels. And I think it's interesting to sort of see that it's not that the corporate world is necessarily bad and that anything outside of that is necessarily good. A lot of it has to do with the vision of the life that you want and working on yourself internally to kind of take yourself to where it is that you want. You know, I mean, swapping one for the other is not necessarily going to make you, make you happy as, as you've proven.

Absolutely, yeah. It's one. I, I think with everything there are, there are different trade offs. The corporate world and a lot of other careers demand 50, 60 hours of work. Even when you go home, you're connected via email, via phone calls, and there's a lot of pressure on people to maintain those and to be available. 24, 7 Mountain guiding. You're isolated in the wilderness, but in corporate culture and in a lot of high demanding careers, it's just your time and energy is what's. What you have to pay for it.

Yeah, exactly, exactly. Um, so yeah, you mentioned, obviously you, you went and you, you did your teacher training. But tell me about your, your first yoga experience. What brought you to yoga? Were you practicing before the guiding? Was it post guiding? How did it come about for you?

My first yoga class was very random. Um, I, I was really into bodybuilding, like strength training, and I think I had heard about yoga more as like for flexibility. So I thought maybe it would be a good compliment. And so I remember my first yoga class coming in. We're in, we're in Downward Dog. We're doing vinyasas. And my very like, first distinct memory of yoga is being in Down Dog and just thinking like, I hope like this pose isn't important, my arm shaking. And then come to find out it's in between nearly almost everything. So that was back in, I think 2014, 2015, and yoga was just sort of on and off. I would, sometimes I would drop into studios, sometimes gyms that I'd be a part of would have yoga classes. But it really wasn't until YTT that it became a more stable, integral part of my life.

And so from that initial class and yeah, I think a lot of people who've, who've been to yoga and do yoga can definitely relate. Down Dog. Down Dog is one of those, those poses where you, you get the teachers who say it's a resting pose and you just look at them like, are you crazy? I was actually teaching, teaching yesterday. And then students kind of want to just kind of focus on some of the poses. And we did Down Dog. And once they kind of got those little movements to kind of really get into the pose, they're like, yeah, this is really hard. It's like, yeah, it is really hard. It's a real strength pose. But that just sort of shows that yoga isn't one of those things you just sort of dive into is really easy. There is the work. And once you have that consistency, you can find those sort of little micro movements, micro changes that kind of completely change how you feel the pose. But how long before, how long between, obviously your, your first class, how long was it before you decided that you, you wanted to teach? And what, what made you decide that this was what you wanted to do?

Oh, it was. I mean, even during yoga teacher training, I was, I mean, I was absolutely captivated by the practice, captivated by my teachers. I knew, I knew yoga was going to be a part of my life. But even finishing teacher training, I wasn't sure that, that I was called to do, called to teach. I spent. Shortly afterwards, I did another travel. I was woofing in Japan and there I was, I was reading a lot of the, like, sacred texts. I was practicing my own. And it was, I kept having this hesitancy. I, I'd explored So many career paths, so many different avenues, that even being drawn to yoga, it was still like, I wasn't sure if it. If this was just one of those things that was going to be part of my life for a little bit. So I was just really, like, reluctant to commit to was. Shortly after the lockdown and moving back to Denver, I started teaching in my backyard. I just. I had mentioned to some of my neighbors that I was a yoga teacher, and they're like, oh, you should do classes here. And it was really after doing a few weeks of it where people were saying how rested they felt, how great it was, especially with all the new changes, that I really, once. Once I had started teaching and had that connection, then. Then I knew it was something I wanted to be a part of my life. And then with. With studios closing and everything, it was just more of a question then of, like, how. How do I actually go about doing this?

Yeah. The question that yoga teachers everywhere have been asking themselves this year, it's been an interesting year. But I think actually for newer yoga teachers like yourself, like me, and like some of my other guests, it's actually been quite a good opportunity because we never had the studio roles and we were never in that sort of traditional role of teaching. It wasn't like we had to adapt or pivot. It was like, okay, this is what's available. Let's just do that. And I think it's kind of worked out quite well in that. That. In that instinct. So, yeah, it seems like you. Yeah, you just like. Like a lot of people, you just kind of found this transformation within your training. And although there wasn't sort of like a very sort of clear vision as to this is what I want to do, it was still this shift that was happening inside you internally that kind of like, took you to. To where you are now.

Absolutely. It was definitely. It was. I felt like I had found. I'd found the thing I was looking for. I'd found that clarity. It was just the implementation, the making it of, like, okay, I have this practice, I like this thing I'm passionate about. How do I actually bring this into the world? How do I actually serve others? And, yeah, it was like you were mentioning, there is an interesting silver lining to this year for new teachers. And because I think we're all just navigating this new world, everyone is uncertain of how you teach, where you teach, what's okay, given the new guidelines. And I think there is something of having not been in that established studio system that was a little more Freeing.

Yeah, without a doubt. It forces you to be more creative and to not put yourself through the usual rite of passage which is probably running around teaching 20 plus classes a week and potentially suffering burnout, as a lot of teachers do. And in terms of where you, you think this is going to take you, you took the opportunity to set up your, your own business this year called the Balance Self, which, and we talked about a bit about balance in Mountain Guarding, how that didn't give you balance. Where did the name come from, the idea for the company? And what's your vision for the balance Self?

Absolutely, yeah. I would say something that is just resonated with me for the past several years. The thing that I would just describe as my overall ethos in life is balance. I think there are many elements to finding balance. Our careers or friendships or family or fitness or mental health. The seems like the more life goes on, the more things that we have to keep in balance. And so the Balance Self, the name is essentially two parts where the self comes more from the Hindu tradition of this, like capital S self, the lower self. And I really just, I wanted to combine those elements of what I, what I want to bring to my students and also what the tradition of yoga is. So that was the origin of the balanced self and really the, the future of it. Right now I teach mainly to corporate, small businesses, universities, things like that. Really I envision bringing, bringing specific programs to the people that need it. Yoga Nidra is my primary mode, my primary discipline. So those that need deep rest. I'm particularly fascinated with the Aira School developed by Richard Miller for treating trauma and ptsd. Really the future of the balanced self is bringing fitness, healing, trauma and just bringing more balanced lives to the people that need it.

So true balance is definitely something that's lacking in a lot of our lives, no matter where we are. Whether you do yoga and that's all you do and you don't do anything else, or whether you're working 50, 60 hours a week in a corporate job and have no time for personal life. We all need balance. You need the Ying and the Yang and then that's very clear. So I think the, the sort of vision that you have and the ethos behind the company is great and is an interesting one. You said you focus on corporate wellness and what's interesting to me is that as someone who hasn't been in the corporate world, I think it's quite fascinating that you chose that as your niche, as your area of focus. Normally it's people who've Been there, sort of seen the destruction and kind of want to get out and help other people effectively sort of see the light and regain, regain control of their sort of physical and mental well being that kind of go down the corporate route. What made you decide to sort of follow that path as your, as your niche in teaching yoga?

I think it was one, one of the big reasons my time in university took so long was I was just, I was hearing horror stories of like post university life, of the corporate grind, of being a cog in the wheel. And I really, I wanted to more than anything to not be in that sphere. I, I wanted to, I wanted what I was doing to have value and have meaning. And I just felt like the corporate world was like trading your livelihood for benefits and for these apathetic companies and these, these areas that don't care about you. And so I did anything desperately to not be in. But I think one thing, there's a lot of aspects that drew me to teaching, to the corporate world, and one of those is wanting to change that atmosphere. The corporate world is not going away. It serves many vital functions. There are many reasons we need it. The cubicle farms and the 9 to 5 and the overworking, those are not set in stone. It doesn't have to be that way. There are a lot of forward thinking companies that incorporate yoga, incorporate meditation, that are taking a better look at the lives of their employees and wanting to create happier, healthier employees. And so while I think there's something really beautiful in teaching in somewhere like a studio with yogis, with people who are passionate about that, I think there's something even more special about bringing it to a total novice of someone who's never done a yoga class, who's never heard of yoga, nidra and getting their experience. Yeah, I think I love teaching to yogis where they have a great experience. But if I teach to someone who has no experience with yoga and who has no reason to like it or dislike it, and they say they've never felt more restored, or they say they're full of energy, like, I think that brings me a lot of joy and I think it's a unique sphere to work and operate in.

Yeah, I can definitely concur with that. I think sharing the practice with people who maybe, as you say, are novices or maybe have thought it wasn't for them, and seeing that transformation, I think is one of the most satisfying things as a teacher. And going back to something you said earlier about wanting to serve and I think for a lot of yoga teachers, it's seen as a service. It's not about you as a teacher, it's about your students and it's about what you can give and how you can guide them. So delivering that transformation is, particularly as a newer teacher is probably greater with beginner students. And so I can definitely see how you can get a lot of value out of predominantly going down that path. You obviously have started to sort of build up quite a good roster of clients in a short time, which is great. In your experience, have you found that companies are taking the wellness of their employees seriously? I know one of the things that we've talked about on the show with some of the other guests is that whilst corporate wellness programs have been talked about and everybody, almost everybody claims to have one in terms of how seriously they're actually taken, how much support is actually given to employees to attend sessions, how much money is actually put behind it is questionable and varies from industry to industry and company to company. What's your experience?

I think it varies greatly from company to company. I think some are uncertain about what exactly wellness means to them, how to deliver it. I think it's 1, 2 where even, even companies I've worked with signing them up, like where there's a team of 50 or 24 people and then in a class like 9 or 10 show up. I think it's, it's one where I think companies, managers, they really like the idea of it initially. They're just, it's. I think it's on the duty of corporate wellness providers, yoga teachers, to really reinforce the value with something like meditation specifically it takes a while to see the benefits. So a company may be interested in like we're going to book you for four weeks or going to bug you for six classes. And while I think doing any amount of meditation is great and even if you took five minutes out of your day just to meditate, you're doing a service to yourself. It's really, if you want the profound effects, like the scientifically documented literature, it's like 11 hours of meditation is when you start seeing shifts in brain structure. So it's one of. If a company wants to take corporate wellness seriously, they really have to commit like a multi month, 4, 6, up to a year is like when they're really going to notice the benefits. But most corporate companies, they have no experience with yoga, they have no experience with wellness providers, so they're hesitant and they don't know like if it's a gimmick or if no one's going to participate. So there's a weird back and forth in that dynamic.

Yeah, I think you're right. There is a responsibility on us, on wellness providers, on yoga teachers, to sell the transformation. We can all wax lyrical about how great yoga has been for us. But I mean one of the reasons for the show is to kind of demonstrate to people that it's not just the sort of physical, is not all that it's about. If you go to a class and you feel you can't touch your toes or you can't move into a particular pose, that's not a reason to stop going because actually there's a whole transformation that happens with consistency. And also in terms of what you said about the long term investment, yoga is not a, it's not a cure all and you have to, you have to be consistent and you have to look at it as a long term investment in order to see the benefits. And I know for myself when I was still in the corporate world and trying to get to yoga classes and I could probably only do one or two a week, I felt good at the end of class. But in terms of the long term benefits, they still weren't there because effectively you're taking five, six, seven days of high stress and pressure and taking one hour out those five or seven days to relax yourself. And that's not going to cut it. You need to have some sort of consistency whether it's as you say, you do five minutes of meditation a day rather than doing a one hour class one day or whatever it is. So yeah, I think there's still a long way to go in terms of selling the benefits. And I think that, I mean, you shared an article recently on LinkedIn. I think it's also a blog on your website which was interesting because it, it kind of set out some sort of hard sort of facts and statistics and I think that those facts and statistics more likely to convince the sort of hard nose of HR or heads of companies that kind of still look at yoga meditation as these sort of airy sort of fairy, esoteric things that don't have any sort of value in the, in the real world.

Absolutely, yeah. That was a big part of writing that article is I've, I've found in the corporate sphere and in realms like that you just, you need to speak their language and you need to be coming at it from, from what they, their values, what they're looking for. I think yogis and people in that, in that realm, like we're, we're sold on the, we're sold on like the the spiritual side, we're sold on finding balance. We're sold on being better and being more authentic humans. The corporate world, a lot of times like it's for them, it's like, that's great if our employees are like that, but really we want people that are more efficient. We want to save dollars, we want those things. And it's. The good thing is that it really, it ends up when corporate wellness is taken seriously. When companies invest in yoga, they really get both because healthier employees enjoy working where they do more, they're more efficient, they're happier. And it's one where a lot of times like doing less is more like taking a half hour to meditate. Doing an hour of yoga is going to make you a better employee rather than just like grinding out all day for every hour.

Yeah, definitely. Because, because it kind of has a dual effect because on one hand you feel valued because your company is investing in you and investing in your, in your well being. So rather than seeing you as a resource, as a cog in your wheel, they're seeing you as a real person who has real needs. So that, that kind of buys some sense of loyalty. And then as you said, you, you mean you're. By working the body and the mind and sort of thinking more internally, you become more efficient, you become more focused, more intention in what it is that you're doing and you kind of want to get in and kind of get down to it rather than sort of standing around the water cooler complaining about how awful your life is. Yeah, I think that that's, that's, that's something which we, we still need to get across and there's a lot of people doing good work out there, sort of pushing this. But I think it's one of those things which still has to, has to kind of be talked about and even more so in the, in the current climate with people sort of feeling isolated being, being at home, not having those relationships that they would have by going into the office every day and also feeling the, the sort of burden of having to kind of always be on, to kind of prove that although you can't be seen, you're still working. So yeah, I think that the corporate route is a fantastic route to go down and there's a lot of tangible benefits that can be seen in a relatively short space of time, particularly if you're seeing the same students week in, week out.

Yeah, I think that's another one of the reasons that really drew me into the corporate sphere is there's, I mean there's something really rewarding as a teacher of seeing your students grow week by week. I'm sure, I mean, I'm sure in the studio system, when you have regular students, you're seeing that too. But there's an interesting thing when you just have that like, mandated schedule and week by week we're going to go through this. And at the beginning and end of sessions I've worked in, there's usually a check in, there's how people are feeling. The end, the end of class is always great. When people are like really zenned out or really relaxed or really just, really just feeling a lot better. More clear.

Yeah, no, exactly. And continuing on the, on the corporate theme, I mean, one thing obviously in terms of the podcast, I talk about people who are questioning, like, what they're doing and why they're doing it or, you know, I mean, getting people to sort of think about if where they are is where they want to be and if where they're heading is where they want to go. Because for a lot of people, you're so ensconced in the bubble. You're working hard, your head is down, you're just trying to get through each day, get through this deal, get onto the next deal, get through that one that you don't sort of come up for air and think about what it is that you want to do. And for a lot of people, that can sort of manifest itself into some sort of destructive behaviors, whether it's just dealing with stress, whether it's drinking, whether it's partying too much, etc. I know you talked a little bit about your struggles with depression and anxiety and kind of how that manifested itself. What, what helped you get through that and, and what, what was the sort of mindset shift that kind of took you out of, I guess, a relatively dark place that you were in?

Yeah, I spent really the first like two decades of my life with very severe depression, anxiety, really just this never ending, kind of like black void of hopelessness. Really. The thing that initially sparked me was sort of my life raft was strength training. There was just a, like a peace and clarity afterwards. And it was really the first time where I was able to start setting goals and have progress. I think a lot of, of people struggling with depression, they just, they don't, they don't feel like they're going anywhere. They don't feel like it's leading to anything. And strength training, and I mean any fitness, but strength training is unique. Where it's like each week you can be doing a few More reps or a little more weight. And you can really, like, tangibly see, like, you're making progress, you're getting stronger. And it was. It was through that where, like, the first time I had goals that took several years to complete, but then the day where I'm like, this is the weight I wanted to reach. This is what I wanted to do. And then I had done it, and there was a big mental shift in the way I thought about goals and the way I thought about my life, where. And I learned this through people and through mentors and other avenues, but where I realized that success is inevitable if you're putting in the work. If you keep doing persistent effort, like, no matter what your medium is, no matter if it's a career, a new hobby, an instrument, whatever your chosen thing is, if you keep working at it day in and day out and stay consistent, you will get better, you will find success. And so then it just becomes about asking the questions of, well, what do you want to do and what do you want to dedicate yourself towards? I think another one of the big traps we get in. And I was in this trap too, where I was in school and I was thinking, I don't want to be in corporate. I don't want a job where I'm a cog. And sort of like a light bulb moment for me was just asking like, well, what. What do you want to do? And then aligning towards what you want and heading in that direction. And if you can let go of the timeliness of it. Because often we're just, we want to get there as soon as we can. We just. We want it immediately. But if you just let go of that and trust the process, it will happen. And it's one. I've found a lot of times it happens quicker than you would think.

Yeah, a lot to unpack there.

You.

I think one thing I really like that you just said is success is inevitable if you're putting in the work. And I think that this is something that a lot of people struggle with because they don't necessarily know what putting in the work means. And they talk about what they don't want to do. I don't want to do this job anymore. I don't like this anymore. I don't want to have the next promotion. I don't want to be in this world anymore. But they don't, as you said, think about what is it they do want. So. And I know I've been guilty of this as well, because for a period of time, I was Running away from something rather than running to something. And I think that there's definitely a shift in mindset to running to rather than running away because when you're running to, it's almost like it's a joyous experience. You, you're looking for, it's like looking forward to Christmas, right? You're looking forward to something. So there's that excitement that builds up and you're kind of doing the preparation and taking the steps to get there. When you're running away from something, it's, it's, you know, someone's chasing you, you're just trying to get away. You have no idea where you're going. You're just trying to get away from that person behind you. And so that aimlessness is, I mean just, it doesn't solve the deeper seated problem that you actually have. So yeah, and you say you've got to be consistent. If you don't put in the work, you're not going to get there. Yoga, Yoga can give you a huge transformation, but it can only give you that transformation if you commit to it and you put in the work. As a guest, Pedro Luna said a couple of weeks ago was that you've got to go all in on yourself. You've got to be like, okay, this is what I'm going to do. I know, I'm committed and go for it. You can't kind of do it halfway, otherwise you're not going to get to where you need to get to. So I think that was a really valuable. In terms of what you were talking about there, do you feel that? I mean you talked about obviously strength training was something that was your life raft. Did yoga help you as well? Were you out of your sort of state of depression, anxiety by the time you got to yoga or was yoga sort of a continuation of the strength training and an additional life raft, if you will?

I felt like yoga was more of an evolution more than anything. I've that by the, by the time I had gotten to yoga, a lot of, a lot of like the major depression, anxiety was, was at bay. I, I very much believe that it's not something that really goes away, it's just something that you like, you work on to keep, keep in the, in the distance. Yoga was just one of the things that drew me to it was there was, it was just soul, so multi dimensional in the physical component. It has the spiritual component, it has the communal component. It was just this synesthesia of so many self care items. And that really, that really drew me to it more than anything. When, when I started getting into yoga, strength training really fell by the wayside. I still enjoy it because the, I mean the feeling after lifting heavy weights is quite different than yoga. But yoga is, it's just grounding in such a deeper way and it connects, it connects a lot more elements of life to me. But I, I think that is just for me personally because I know people were like the gym or jiu jitsu or another discipline like it, they have that same experience with it. I just found yoga was more in line with who I am.

Okay. And when we, or when lots of people think of yoga, one of the first things that comes to mind is bikram because that's what people know. That was kind of like the big explosion into the, the Western world really of, of yoga and that understanding. But although you teach a variety of styles of yoga, not Bikram, as you said earlier, your, your specialty is yoga nidra. I've had the pleasure of doing a yoga nidra once on a retreat and it was, it was amazing. I would love to do more of it. But for those who, who don't know what yoga nidra is, how, how would you explain it and what would you, what would you say the, the sort of benefits are and how it differs from say a Bikram class or a Vinyasa class or something else?

Absolutely. So I, I pretty much always describe yoga nidra as being very similar to a guided meditation of Nidra is actually unique compared to meditation. But essentially a yoga nidra class is like 15 to 20 minutes of gentle asana, just kind of warming up the body and helping people relax. And then you lie on your back in shavasana, usually in a dark, quiet space. And then it's a, it's a guide, guided meditation through the different energies. So you, it starts off and you focus on your breathing and then you do a rotation of consciousness where you're going through the different parts of the body and then there's tends to be a visualization or focusing on different elements. And yoga nidra in Sanskrit, there are different translations, but it tends to translate towards sleep. And yoga nidra is often being in the sleep state but still having conscious awareness. And it's an immensely therapeutic and healing practice with a lot with many different applications. It's therapeutically, it's been used to treat trauma and ptsd. It's used to treat depression, anxiety. It's a great, I personally use it a lot of times, just like midday as a energy booster. There's people tend to typically say like 40 minutes of yoga Nidra is the equivalent of 3 hours of sleep. And it's because during a yoga nidra session you're going into like the deep REM sleep, but you're still retaining your awareness. And it's, yeah, it's. I, I mean, every, every style of yoga is available to anyone with proper modifications and proper, proper instruction. But yoga nidra is especially like, you just, you need a quiet place to lie down. You can do it in your bed or on a mat or in a chair standing. And I, I really, it was, we had a yoga nidra session in YTT and really it was after like doing like three or four hours of asana practice. And so that helped too. But yeah, I was, during, during it, I, I felt like I was just on abso plane of reality and I felt so rested, I felt so good afterwards. And it was just one with, I think all yoga teachers have different strengths. And I felt that calming presence and rest and relaxation really resonated with me and was what I was more catered to. So that's why it became sort of my, my, my primary discipline.

Yeah, I can see, I can imagine a lot of the listeners out there. So when you were talk saying sort of 15 minutes of Sarvasana and then effectively Shavasana, they were like, yeah, I can do that. That's the yoga that I want to do. It's not one that is, that seems to be that well known. I mean, I don't think I'd heard of it until I went on my retreat back in 2019 actually. But I think it's one that, as you say, anybody can do it. And I didn't know the sort of statistic about sort of 40 minutes or so is equivalent to three hours sleep. I mean, that's huge. So, yeah, I would definitely be looking to kind of get more nidra into my life. As we talked about, in terms of finding balance, I definitely. How does it go down with, with corporate clients? Because one of the, one of the things in the corporate world is there are a lot of obviously type A personalities, a lot of alphas who kind of like the power yoga. I mean, they want to sort of, they look at it as a competition, even though yoga is not a competition. When you kind of go in, you know, I mean, and you've got a sort of very sort of calming voice and that sort of come across in some of the testimonials that you have as well. How do they take to that? Well, I thought I was going to kind of do A workout for an hour and now you're telling me that I'm basically going to sleep for an hour. What's the response?

Like, like I, I've been very fortunate that all of the clients I've worked with have been very receptive to yoga. Nidra, most conversations, most initial calls, when people are asking what I do and we're going back and forth is what they're interested in. Most, most are familiar with yoga as standing poses and postures and a flow like that. Corporate clients tend to be, at least nowadays I would say, pretty receptive to the idea of meditation. And so NIDRA is, I tend to package it in that way where I say like, what if we do like some movement and then we do a guided meditation at the end and then that tends to be the portion of nidra. Yeah, I mean it's, it's one where understanding your students, where I mean some need more of the Yang energy, like some need to burn off steam. Like that is what they need right now. And of course I'm happy to cater to that. And I think it's important to listen to what your students need. But just given 2020 with how everyone is feeling and just like the constant stress, most people I've found are very okay to lie down for 40 minutes and take a break and get some rest, get away from it for a second.

Yeah, I mean how, how many times do you, do people get to take a nap? And I mean, and it's not a nap but I mean have that sort of relaxation, that sort of time out, that stillness. So. And yeah, people, a lot of people may think that they don't need it, but they're probably the people that need it most. It's like the, the famous quote about meditation. If you can't sort of sit for 20 minutes, you need 20 hours or whatever it is. So yeah, no, it's good, it's good that they are seeing the benefit that they're receptive and that they're not just expecting the full on power yoga experience.

Yeah, I think it's one too where I think once, I think once people have experienced nidra, they're very receptive, they're very on board with it. It is definitely one where even, I mean even in the yoga sphere, I, I do think NIDRA is not talked about as much, not as, not as well known. But yeah, I think it'll, it'll just continue to grow and continue to be a bigger part. That's, I mean that's also part of the reason I love Teaching it is just sharing it and exposing it to as many people as I can. Just I think that inevitably spreads to others and grows that part of the world.

Yeah. Great. And hopefully some of the people listen to this will kind of go and explore it in their own areas or maybe they can find you online. But we'll talk a bit more about your teaching a little bit later. What I really want to talk about, one of the reasons, I mean, I'm excited to talk to all of my guests, they all have interesting stories and great things to offer. One of the things I was excited to talk to you about is that you're the first author I have on the show. So you have a. You have a book coming out. And although, I mean, it's not ready yet in the sense that, I mean, I haven't sort of been able to sort of read it and dive into it. But what I really like is the title, which is Dualities, Insight to getting your shit together. So I'm already, I'm already interested, I'm already sold, and I can't wait to sort of dive into it. But as we haven't had a chance to sort of see it. Yes. Why don't you let us know what the book's about and what made you decide to write it?

Absolutely. Well, I'm glad you like the title. Always, always. Good. Yeah. Dualities has been a big project for me. It was really the culmination of a multi year long healing journey. A lot of the lessons I've learned over the years and really just wanting to condense it and put it into a format that, that I thought could benefit. Benefit people in a lot of the similar circumstances that I found myself in. Along with growing up with anxiety, depression. From 19 to 25, I was very struggling, alcoholic. I was blacking out several times a week. It was one of the reasons my life was in absolute disarray. And I. It was definitely another one where struggled for years to find balance. I would take breaks, I would eat in between meals. I would have a glass of water in between meals. I. I did. At least where I grew up, where I was raised, alcohol was just such an integral part of life that I really. The idea of not having it in my life wasn't even sort of an option, wasn't even. I didn't consider it as a possibility. But after several years of being on that journey, it was actually when I was down in Tassie that the day finally came, or sort of the collective weight of it all was just sitting with me And I just, I decided in that moment that I wasn't sure I didn't know how to live without alcohol. But I also knew that I could no longer live with it. And so I quit drinking in 2018 and I've never looked back from that. And after I quit drinking, that's when I started meditating. It was, I had been strength training and I had been experimenting with goal setting but it was, it was sort of this slow progress and then kind of a rapid escalation as far as like a, a year after I, I felt much more, much more confident, much, much more at home in my own skin. And then sort of things that were in the back burner, things that I wanted in my life, I sort of like made, made more of a priority. And so yeah, dualities was a lot of it is sharing struggles with addiction, struggles with different mindset, different like limiting beliefs that had plagued me over the years. And something that I'm sure we can go into after this was yeah, after, after YTT and after feeling really good and happy with the progress I had made on my journey, I traveled to Costa Rica, to Solterra and I participated in a week long four ceremonies of Ayahuasca, which is beyond life changing, beyond, I mean really beyond words that, that healed a lot of a lot of traumas. A lot of yeah, just, just a lot of life. And I think after maybe a month and a half of unpacking that experience I had, I'd thought for years about writing a book and it was one where I just felt like I had sort of accrued enough wisdom that I could really sort of share some of the lessons I had gained. And I really wanted to make it sort of a beginner, beginner focused. It's a lot of like overcoming limiting beliefs. It's a lot of setting goals, it's. It covers a variety of subjects but it's really for I would say a lot of people at the beginning of their journeys where they want to sort of like lay the foundations for success. And yeah, I spent the last, this last year writing it. I'm in the final stages of just some like little, little editing tweaks and then should be, should be available mid December.

Exciting. And it sounds like there's going to be a lot, a lot in there. Obviously some of the things that we've touched on in this chat, but delving deeper into that and I think as we talked earlier about some of the destructive behaviors that are destructive patterns that people can fall into when they're not quite sure what they're doing or where they're going. Obviously you had your struggles with alcohol, which is common, definitely, in the world that I was in. So there should definitely be a lot in there that people can relate to and that they can sort of look to in terms of how they can deal with those issues in their own life. So, yeah, I'm excited for you and I'm looking forward to delving into it. And yet your ayahuasca journey I'm also fascinated about. I think we might, we might continue the chat about that, post this interview, and maybe. Maybe share it as one of the bonus episodes, because I can see that we can get quite deep into that because it's something that has fascinated me for a long time. We talked about shifts in mindset in terms of the book. In order to get your shit together. How important would you say that shifting your mindset is? I think for a lot of us, before we start to go down the. Down the path of yoga or self development or whatever you want to call it, we spend a lot of time, particularly in society, generally spend a lot of time on the external. I mean, we want our bodies to look a certain way, we want to dress a certain way, we want to drive a certain car, we want a holiday in a certain place. It's all very much sort of focused on the external. And even when you feel that you're in a situation that isn't working for you, you're still fixed on the external. I don't like this job. I want to go and do that job because it's more prestigious, or that job because it pays more money, or that job because it gives me X benefits without sort of looking inside ourselves and thinking, okay, but, but who am I? I mean, who am I? What works for me? Where, where do I, I want to be? What's your, what's your take on that? And how, how important was mindset to you in terms of bringing you to a point where you, you sort of feel that you're, you're on the path that you want to be on?

Oh, I think mindset is absolutely everything. I definitely think it's, it's one of the hardest to cultivate, but things that will absolutely most set you free. I mean, there, there are a million quotes I can pull on, but one I always love is Hugh says he thinks he can and who he thinks he says or who he thinks he cannot are both. Right. And it's one of. If you, if you think you're gonna fail at something, you will fail. Like it's you. You have to believe, you have to think you're capable of whatever you put your mind to. And if you I so much, we just, we get in our own way, we, we stop ourselves before we take any action. It's one of, I mean there are, there's so many influences as far as why we have these limiting beliefs. Some of these are cultural, some of these are societal. Some of this is like advertising making us think we're not enough, that we're not complete enough. But it's, it's also one where your mindset, mindset shift will be your greatest ally as far as your external circumstances are always going to be changing or always in flux. And one thing I've noticed, and I mean I've experienced personally though, is there are people where their external circumstances are fantastic and they're dead miserable. Like none of it is satisfying. Their bills are taken care of, they have a great career, they have great friends, and it's nothing because they're, their internal headspace is not taken care of. And then there are a lot of people where, from the outside, it's like they work three jobs, their, their apartment is small, their car is terrible. But like they're satisfied because they've cultivated that internal sense of self worth. And it's not that wealth will make you unhappy or poverty is something to be romanticized, but it's one where developing that internal space, that internal confidence, getting rid of a lot of those limiting beliefs is, is absolutely fundamental. And it's, it's one where it, I mean it's, it's excruciatingly hard. I think anyone that has done anything worthwhile. I constantly hear of experience about like imposter syndrome. And it's, it's really hard. Like my, my first yoga class, I felt, I felt so unprepared. I'm like, I done ytt and I've been practicing and I've been reading, but I'm like, I don't know anything. And like, even, even teaching for this year, it's like I can feel like I'm a better teacher, but like I. There. The journey is forever. You're always growing. Like there's always more to do. But yeah, like it's, I mean there, there are so many mental lessons to learn and things to go through, but I think a positive outlook. I think being willing to learn, I think a student, student mindset gets you very far and being humble gets you really far. Yeah.

Yeah, that's definitely true. I don't know what you mean about about teaching as well. I mean, I was fortunate. I basically finished YTT and then started teaching straight away. And I continuously taught two classes a week. And it's great, it's great for the confidences in terms of getting up to teach. But yeah, I mean, we, we don't know anything. But that's the beauty of yoga, is that they're kind of, it's kind of the process. It's not the, it's not about an end destination. It's about a process and it's about learning about yourself and it's about guiding your students. I think if we look at it as though we're the teacher and they're the students, you'll never progress. But if you accept the fact that you're always going to be learning and all you're doing is kind of guiding your students down the path that you're on and you're maybe a few steps ahead of them, but you still don't have all the answers, that's the great way to look at it. One phrase, which I, which I like that you said, and it's a phrase that I've heard a lot this year, particularly since I stepped out of my, my, my previous role in the, in the corporate world, in big law, is getting out of your own way. And it's something I wish, I wish I'd been aware of sooner because when you actually break it down, it answers a lot of questions to you. What would you say? To you, getting out of your own way means.

I think a lot of getting out of your own way is unconscious behaviors. They're, they're ones from the outside. Like, I think with, with our friends and families, you see it really, really. Apparently, like you'll have a buddy who like, wants to go to the gym, wants to get fit, and they're doing it for a little bit and then they stop and then they're eating junk food and they, they're back to like binging Netflix or something. And it's just like, you see it and it's like you know what they want, but they're not doing the things to get there. And we do. I mean, everyone does the same things to themselves. And it's one of. Getting out of your own way can be mindset, shifts of thinking you're not worthy enough, thinking that you're not skilled enough to teach, you're not knowledgeable enough, you're not worth enough to be paid for it, things like that. And it's one of sort of claiming your worth and claiming your value and Knowing that who you are, you are a unique voice and you have worth in this world. And even, even as a beginner, in whatever your medium is, it's like, it's one where you can be a beginner. But if, you know, like, I am doing the work for this, like, I will get better, I will grow. And so, yeah, I'm here. But just wait till, like, watch what I grow, watch what I do. I think a lot of getting out of your own way is knowing your shortcomings, knowing what your vices or your bad behaviors are. And I don't think it's one where we can indulge and we can enjoy our lives, but I think it's one of also keeping yourself accountable. And like, did you work as hard as you could today or are you kind of like relaxing a little earlier? Yeah, I think, I think accountability is huge. And it's sort of like being really ruthlessly, honestly honest with yourself. Because at least I found that when I've worked as hard as I could, even if I like, quote unquote, fail, it's like, well, I did all I could, so that's the best that I could have expected. But if I leave something sort of like half assed or I didn't try as hard as I could and things didn't go the way, then there's this sort of like negative feeling where I'm like, I know I could have done more. And that, that always has sat really hard with me.

Yeah, that sort of chimes very much with, with my view as well. And to take sort of two things that you said from that knowing, knowing your worth, I think is definitely something that people struggle with. One of the things I, I say to all of my guests before I start the interview, I mean, you'll know I said it to you as well. It's in my, my list of guest tips is remember what you have to say is valuable. And I'd like to say that to everybody because we think that, well, our lives are so ordinary. Like, there's nothing spectacular that happened to me. Like, what have I got to say? What have I got to share? But everyone has a unique experience, and it's incumbent upon you to step out of that fear and to share that experience, because that experience could help somebody, even if it's one person. And so by not sharing it, you're, you're protecting yourself, but you're actually being almost selfish, really, and almost making it all about you, other than making it about service. And when you look at what it is that you have to offer, look at, is it what you're doing as a form of service? That is a. That is definitely a shift. It was definitely a shift for me because then it's like, okay, it's not. It's not about me. And that was partly came from teacher training as well, because that's what we're told in teacher training. It's not about you as the teacher, as I said before, it's about the students. And once you can make that shift, then, yes, you still have fear, yes, you still have doubts, but you push past those because you're looking at the greater good. And the greater good is helping that one person out there who is in the position that you're in, but who is really struggling and who, by sharing your story, you could really help and then also trying and failing. We get so hung up on perfection. I know as a lawyer, perfection is key. You sort of pour over the sort of minutiae of every detail, so it's hard to unlearn that. But actually, if you don't fail, you never learn. I mean, I look at my kids, I've got two young kids, five and three, and they don't care about failure. They just do stuff and they just ask questions. They don't think about whether the question is. Is a silly question, whether somebody will laugh at them fast and quick. They just ask the question and if you give them an answer that they don't want to accept, they either will ask you again or they just won't accept it and they'll just say that you're wrong. And obviously we all had that as children and at some point we, we lose that and we start to kind of go down this rigid path and think more about what we should be like and second guess ourselves and overthink. And yeah, that to me is getting in your own way. Because if you kind of let that all go and just, are just free, then you'll say what you feel, you say what you think, you'll share your experience. And through that sharing, the more you do it, the more confident you will get in doing that. So, yeah, I think it's. It's getting. Getting out of your own way is a phrase which I've. I've grown to sort of really love and really live by and is one that I think for any of the listeners out there who are sort of struggling and thinking that what they have to say or what they have to share isn't important and isn't valuable, then do it. Talk to the junior lawyers in Your organization, talk to your colleagues in your company who are struggling to share your experience, and that can really help them figure out what they want to do and help them avoid making some of the mistakes that you've made.

Absolutely. I think you've touched on a lot of really great points. I think one thing that's really important is we inspire each other. It's one where what I'm doing right now, the things I've accomplished in life were because other people did them and I wanted to emulate, or they inspired me. And it's one where when you do the same, when you start a podcast, when you leave law to teach yoga, it inspires someone who is, like, in there. Like, I don't know. Like, I. Like I've invested so much, but then it's like. But you give them the courage to uncon. To go out and seek whatever it is they're seeking. I think there's such a thing of making choices based in fear, because I. A lot of people, they stay in their careers because they're afraid. They're afraid of losing the benefits. They're afraid of their stability. They're afraid of starting over. And it's one of. It's just such a dark path to go on. And it's one of, like, starting over is nothing. It's so much better to be at the bottom, doing something you care about than, like, climbing higher and going further down a path you don't want to be on. And it's one. How you were describing your children earlier, where it's. When. When you're on that path, like, when you. When you make mistakes, they. They don't seem like mistakes. They're learning experiences. Like, you teach a class, the. The wording was kind of clunky, or you forgot to, like, go to the left side or something. It's like you. It'll just. It'll be better the next time. And it's. Yeah, letting. Letting go of that perfectionism. Letting go of that fear of, like, what if I don't teach a perfect yoga class? Like.

That fear stops you. It blocks your creativity. I mean, I know once I let all that go, suddenly the creativity obviously was just pouring out of me, because then you're not afraid, and you'll just sort of try stuff, and if it works, it works. If it doesn't, it doesn't. And, yeah, like teaching a yoga class, I mean. Yeah, I mean, there's definitely been classes where I've sort of got the left and the right mixed up, you know, because you're standing, you're doing the opposite. It's fine. I mean, you just kind of correct yourself like no one, no one's, no one's come to me at the end of the class and say, you got the left and the right mixed up. You made this really bad class for me. I'm not coming back. Right. And so a lot of the fears that we, that we build for ourselves. So Owen foundered. And yes, some fear is good because if there's a, if there's an element of fear, it means that you're taking a risk. It means that you're thinking bigger than where you currently are and that's a good thing. The trick is then to allow that fear to kind of fuel you and push you forward, not to hold you back. And once you can get there, then you can start to see, to see great things happen. And so, yeah, I never want to give people the impression that it's easy. It's not easy to leave a corporate career. It's not easy to kind of go and try and set up your own thing, particularly in the year of a global pandemic and economic downturn. It's not easy to leave behind everything that you trained for and worked for and step out into the unknown. None of that is easy. But do you want a life that's easy or do you want a life that's fulfilling? And that's the question you have to ask yourself. Yourself.

Absolutely. I think the, that trade off is such a huge consideration because yeah, on one hand it's like you're, you're trading your mission in life, what you're passionate for, for like these creature comforts of this like perceived stability. And it's, it's just one of where even that can be an illusion. Like even like the corporate gig or the law firm. It's like, like massive corporations go under, law firms cut back. It's like there is no like guaranteed stability there. I do think you make an excellent point though, where I think a lot of times it's like people want to do something really dramatic, like I want to end my career and then I'm just going to go straight into teaching yoga. And it's like, I mean, if that's your calling and that's what you want to do, sure. But it's also one where I feel like you can make smaller adjustments. Like you can work your day job and you can part time teach and you can build your business that way. And at some point you're gonna get to the thing where your business is Successful enough, you're well known enough that you can transition there. Yeah, I think, I mean, some things are harder than others. If you're doing 60 hours at a law firm every week, I'm not sure much part time yoga teaching you're going to be able to do, but I think it's just one of making the small changes, making the small steps is going to help you because it's also one of anything worthwhile, anything big, like a career shift, building a company, it takes so long and you have to be in it for the long haul and you have to be happy with the small victories. But even it's like you can do little things, like you can set up a website, you can set up an Instagram. The next day you can start reaching out to people. Another day you can start creating content, like you can do these little chunks, little bit by little, and then if you just focus on the work, then one day it's like, wow, I've done so much and I've built so much. Rather than like, I think working on it in those bite sized chunks helps you from getting overwhelmed with like the daunting like how do I switch careers? Sort of questions.

Yeah. And as you said, I mean, yeah, if you're working 60 hours, it might be hard to kind of find time to teach Jacobite time. But then your small step is, okay, I start working 60 hours, I move to a firm where my hours are a bit more regular or I move in house, or I do something where I can have more regularity to my hours. Now that may require you to give up or give up the status, give up the perks, give up all of that of being in a big law firm. And then so this is where the inner work comes in. What's important to you? Where do you want your life to go? Is your life driven by all of those external factors? Do you need those to kind of validate yourself? Or is it more important that you live the life that you want, whatever that is. And that could still be within law, it could still be within the corporate world, but it could just be on your terms. And people do that. People find a way that works for them so they can still do the thing and still, still make a decent salary, but they still then have time to do the other things that are important to them in life. So, and I guess that I was going to ask you what balance means to you, but that's, that's kind of the balance. It's kind of like figuring out what, what is important and how that can fit into the life that you. That you want or the life that you're trying to create? Create?

Absolutely. I think we're. I think it's so rare that we're taught about intentional living. I think most, most people I've encountered are on sort of just like the default path, and they just haven't questioned it. It's like school, an internship, career, family. And it's, it's one of. It's like everyone's life is completely unique. What balance is to each person is completely unique. Some people need a lot of time in nature. Others want their career more than anything. Others are city people. They want to go to plays and the theater, and they couldn't care about being in nature. It's like you're saying it's about asking those questions inside yourself. I think one thing of, like, starting a business is it's one where I imagine a lot of people get into it and then they realize how much is involved. And then they're like, I don't want to do this anymore. They realize, like, I actually, I liked being more in a supportive role. I liked not having all of that responsibility. And other people, like, they, they can't stand having a manager. They. They need to be guiding their own life. It's deciding for yourself, like, what resonates with you, what speaks to you, at least for me, like balance. Balance is many, many different elements. It's my physical fitness with yoga. It's meditating every day. It's time with friends. It's time building my business. It's time reading and learning and other hobbies like that. That's balance to me. Having a good amount of time dedicated to each of those. And it's, it's one where it shifts too. Like, sometimes I'm. I'm more passionate about my business. Other times I'm craving, like, some deep time in nature. I think it's one like our, our lives aren't static and our priorities shift over time. And it's important to listen to your intuition and what's speaking to you and what you're calling at the current moment.

Yeah, so true. So, so true. So we're gonna move into sort of the wrap up now, sort of start to wind down the interview, Although I'm. I'm excited about sort of chatting a bit more later, as I said said about ayahuasca and anything else that comes up. So first rapid question that I ask every guest. Do you have a morning routine? And if you do, what is it?

Yeah, for the most part, every morning I wake up, I have a cup of coffee, I tend to read for a little bit and then I meditate for 30 minutes. My meditation practice is just sort of sitting in silence balance. I go through like a breath counting and a body scan and then I just sit there until my timer goes off. And then that's where my days shift. Sometimes I'll go into yoga afterwards, other times if I'll be like feeling like writing or I have work to do. But yeah, that, that tends to be my, my morning ritual.

And what, how long have you had that sort of, that routine and what, what difference what shift do you think having a routine like that has made to your day to day?

I would say better per maybe somewhere between like a year or two at least like meditating daily. That became as far as self care things go, that's the one that impacted me the most and the one I recommend the most and find that gets, gets my days off on like the right foot. I, I think there's just, I think there's something good about consistency. I find it really grounding if I find days where I don't start that way. If it's traveling or something else, I feel really out of sync. So I think it's just a good way that I've sort of like taught my body to just like get in a good, good rhythm and start my day off right.

Cool. Yeah. Yeah. I definitely feel that it's having some sort of routine and it doesn't have to be fully structured, but just being intentional in what you're going to do each morning can, can make a difference to how your, how your day pans out. What tips or advice would you give to any listeners that are trying to figure out if, if where they are is, is where they want to be? Obviously you've had a lot of change, a lot of shifts in your own life, what kind of worked for you or what would you like to share that you haven't already shared?

Absolutely. I think journaling is immensely powerful. I think if you don't journal regularly, I think it's immensely therapeutic. It's a great way to get a handle on your thoughts and your mind. I know there are a lot of different ways to journal. Some people journal right at the beginning of the day. I tend to do it in the evening. I also journal once a month where I go through sort of my goals, how the last month went. But I think taking time, if you haven't already, like find a quiet place, get like a pen and paper and really just sort of Pour through your thoughts, like, what's. What's on your mind? What are you worried about? What would you like to accomplish? Why? What do you feel like is getting in your way? What do you feel like you need to do? I think there's just. There's a lot of clarity that I find for me with. With a lot of worries or anxieties. When I'm able to put them to paper there, the power of them seems to go away. And I seem to be able to reach more solutions of, like, oh, I'm. I'm worried about outreach, so I need to do more of that. I need to. I'm not doing enough yoga, so I need to make that more of a priority. Need to dedicate more time to it. I think. I think journaling is a great starting place that any. Anyone. Anyone can do.

Yeah. And that's a common one. It's something which I. I'm still struggling to be consistent with. I kind of go to it and then leave it and go to it. But I. I need to do it because, as I think the listeners probably heard me say before, I'm someone who carries a lot around in the head, and I'm trying to kind of get away from that because it's just not. It's just not good as. As more and more things pile up. So, yeah, when I have done it, I must confess I found it really helpful just having that relationship. And when I'm writing myself, writing an article or whatever, that tends to be the way that I write is to kind of like, get everything out that's coming out, not edit it and then kind of go back and look at it later. So, yeah, journaling, I definitely recommend it. I mean, do as. Do as Will says. Don't do as I do. What are you most grateful for at the moment?

Honestly, I'm really grateful. I was very lucky this year to meet a really beautiful woman during COVID and quarantine, and we've been really lucky to go on a lot of wonderful adventures and get to know each other. And yeah, with. With all the crazy instability of this year, she's definitely a grounding force in my life, and I'm really, really grateful to have met her and to have her share. Share some of my adventures with me.

Cool. That's beautiful. And she'll really thank you when she hears this. You chose her. You. You've been trained well. You've been trained well, well, well done. A lot. A lot of could learn. Could learn from you on that school, but no, that's Great. I mean, as you say, having, having that, that stability, having somebody to kind of share a lot of the ups and downs with is, Is definitely something that's important. And it just kind of helps to have, have someone who can kind of just. Yeah. Either keep you accountable or just listen or just sort of like you say, have. Have great adventures with. So. Yeah. No. Beautiful. Okay. Going into the, the last few quickfly questions. So particular words of wisdom or quote that you.

I don't. I honestly, I'm reading it right now. I love the litany Against Fear from Frank Herbert in Dune. I can't remember exactly how it goes, but one of the stanzas of it is, I will permit my fear to pass through me. When it is gone, only I will remain. And it's, it's this really powerful passage of not being overwhelmed and really, really going. Going through fear. I've. I've found that a lot of times our fears are a great, like, compass of, of guiding where we should be going. Like starting a business, moving into yoga was frightening, but it. That that fear was like a good guide of where I should be going because the idea of getting a steady job or something like that, like, wasn't scary, wasn't risky. Yeah, I can't, I can't remember the exact quote.

I'll look it up and share a link to that in the show notes. But yeah, just the, the little bit that you said. Yeah, that's fascinating. I like that. Yeah. Fear. A lot of people, as we said before, think about fear and let fear hold them back. So the idea of just fear passing through you and you still being here, still being standing and being able to continue is. Yeah, is a beautiful, beautiful imagery. So, most impactful book you've read in the last 12 months.

I would say. I really love the Doubted Chant. I think I read it years and years ago and it was when I was not very spiritually inclined. Sort of like glossed through it, but I read it later this year and it is like every, every. I mean, you could meditate on each page. It's very like. It's like one of the most, like, absolute truths as far as books I've ever read. Immensely beautiful.

Okay. I haven't read it myself. I read it. The thing about asking this question is that each guest mentioned such amazing books and it just means that my, my book list gets longer and longer, so I know what I'm going to read more. But having the recommendations is always a good starting point.

So I always have a giant stack of books I'm meaning to get to. And then someone recommends something and I go buy that and just add it to the stack.

Yeah, we have that in common. Favorite yoga pose and why Child.

Child's pose is a great, like, depending where it is in the practice. Like, my, My hips are super tight, so it actually can be, like, quite intense. But there's like, nothing like being in a power vinyasa class where you're in Down Dog and they're like, if you want to drop down to Childs, I'm just like, boom, like, on the ground. Like, like, I'll. I'll skip this flow.

Big fan of child's pose myself as well. Yeah, it's quite. It can be like you say it can be. I mean, I have tight hips as well, so it can. It can be quite intense or it can be quite restorative, depending on how you take it. But yeah, I'm also a fan. Yin. Yoga or yoga Nidra.

Oh, I mean, like, both is the right answer, I will admit. Like, I, I default to Nidra way than I do Yin. But I mean, they're, They're. They're just so good in. In different ways.

And they're both. How would you. How would you distinguish them to anybody who wasn't familiar with either?

I think. I mean, yin is interesting where it's in some ways almost like, more meditative, because at least in most classes, I do like, you're in silence, so you're just. If you're in these poses, it can be like, quite, quite intense, quite uncomfortable. So there's a lot of just like resting in that. Of just like holding it for a while. Nidra is more like meditative, like trance, like where you're just following someone's voice and a lot of times even pull back where I like, I, like, didn't hear what they were saying for, like, minutes at a time. I think I would say Yin. I. I mean, yin's used for flexibility, really working on your body. And I feel like NIDRA is more restoring your, like, inner. Inner space.

Okay, that's a good description. If you could only have one of these two apps, would it be Audible or Netflix?

I would go with Netflix just because I don't like audiobooks and I only read books. Books. But if it's like physical books or Netflix, I'm going with books for sure.

Old school. Yeah, I've. Audiobooks. I've. I've kind of never really had a chance to get into. I just feel that I don't take in as much as I do when I'm actually reading a book, but I'm going to give it a go again just to kind of up my, up my book. My book. Reading, listening. And we will see. And final question. Question. Dream yoga retreat destination. You've been to some amazing places, obviously. Himalayas, Tasmania, amongst others. If you were going to go on a retreat, where would be your, your ideal destination?

I think I would, I would choose New Zealand. New Zealand has always been my like, dream destination that I haven't gotten to yet. I just something about if like a spot like near the ocean with like the big mountains in the background that sounds, that sounds pretty incred. Nice.

Yeah, that's a little bit different as well. Yeah, New Zealand. New Zealand's beautiful. I went a few years ago and it's, it's just absolutely stunning. And I mean, we only scratch the surf, so if you ever get the chance to go, then, yeah, take, take it with both hands and stay for as long as you possibly can. Okay. Well, that brings us to the end of today's interview. It's been really fascinating speaking to you, very excited about your book. Look forward to that coming out and sort of getting more depth of some of the issues that we discussed here. There's obviously only so much we can cover in the. The 90 minutes or so that we have. We, we will catch up again shortly to talk about some more esoteric things probably and go off down the, down the rabbit hole. But for now, for this main part of the interview, thank you. Thank you very much. It's been great speaking to you and yeah, I wish you all the success with the Balance self and with the book.

Well, thank you so much. It's been an absolute honor and pleasure being on your podcast. I've really enjoyed this conversation. I look forward to talking to you more a little afterwards and hearing from the rest of your guests in the future.

Great. Thanks, Will. If you enjoyed that conversation with Will, go ahead and check out his book Dualities, Insight into getting your shit together. The title alone has got to have you intrigued. I know I am. And if they're listening to that interview, I know there'll be lots of interesting stories for you to tell. And if you'd like to follow us down the rabbit hole, learn more about Will's Ayahuasca retreat over in Costa Rica, go ahead and check out My Patreon page, patreon.com liveinpodcast choose the tear that, that you want to sign in at, and it'd be good to have your support for the show to help us with creating new content, giving you guys exactly what it is that you want, that you need. And if you'd like to be on the show and you'd like to get on the show or you just want to give me some feedback, tell me what you're vibing with, what resonates with you. Drop me a DM on Instagram, heogadenpodcast and also mindspaceyoga. And if you're not on Instagram, you can also head to the website ryanspenceyoga.com and just send me a message using the contact form there. And while you're over at the site, why not sign up and download free ebook and video? Blow the theme to kickstart your day the right way with a nice simple yoga routine to connect your mind, body and your breath. Because we can all spare 15 minutes for our work. Well being right? Great. And as we come to the end of the show, as we always say, eat plants, give thanks, do yoga, peace.