The Art of Authentic Relating, deepening connection with Ryel Kestano | Gateways to Awakening — Gateways to Awakening

This episode of Gateways to Awakening is brought to you by Vastu Feng Shui, a sacred technology that merges ancient wisdom with modern design. Our spaces are alive. They hold energy, memory, and frequency, mirroring our state of consciousness and shaping how we think, feel, and create. Vastu Feng Shui is the first app of its kind, harmonizing space design system that reads your birth chart and your home's energetic compass to offer personalized remedies for balance and flow. Imagine walking into your home and instantly feeling clarity, creativity, and peace. Rooted in over 10,000 years of Vedic science, Vastu Feng Shui maps your planetary blueprint and translates it into modern activations using sacred geometry, yantras, crystal grids, color frequencies, and spatial alignments. To turn your home into a sanctuary for abundance and love. You can go ahead and download the Vastu Feng Shui app now on the Apple App Store or visit vastufengshuiharmony.com to begin your transformation. Hi, my name is Yasmeen Turehi, and this is Gateways to Awakening, where we host one-on-one conversations with leading experts in wellness, wellbeing, and spirituality. Today's show is with Rael Castano, the co-founder of the Cora dating and relationship app, and is a longtime leader and pioneer in the authentic relating movement worldwide. And prior to Cora, Rael was the co-founder and CEO of Authentic Relating— it's called ART International, the world's leading authentic relating training company— and the Realness Project, nonprofit bringing authentic relating to prison inmates. He's also the author of an excellent book, which I'm reading now, called Authentic Relating: A Guide to Rich, Meaningful, Nourishing Relationships. And he's dedicated his life to helping people experience the kind of deep, meaningful connection that's really nourishing and enriching. I'm so excited to welcome Ryle to the show. I am actually in the Level 1 Art of Authentic Relating training right now, so I'm excited to welcome him to the show. Welcome.

Thanks, Jasmine. Appreciate it.

So to kick it off, Ryle, you know, for folks who haven't read your work or know anything about The Art of Authentic Relating, people hear this phrase like authentic relating and think about, I'm just going to be honest. But how do you define authenticity? And, you know, what's really misunderstood about, about that word?

Yeah, sure. I mean, authentic relating really at its core and in its spirit as a practice to simply have better relationships with other humans more fulfilling, more enlivening, richer, more trustable, a space in which we can be more vulnerable with others and invite them to be more vulnerable with us. And it recognizes that the quality of our relationships are probably the most impactful influence in our well-being in life in general. And yet there's really no explicit kind of training that really any of us get in the course of our upbringing or early lives that provides us with the resources and skills and tools to be able to cultivate, create, and participate in these kinds of relationships. So authentic relating is a way of grabbing and capturing that way of relating to people in this nourishing, fulfilling way. And then in response to your specific question, I would say that, yeah, people do have a preconceived idea of what authentic and authenticity means, which really is that it's just being real. Um, but what I really want to emphasize is that it's not called authentic, it's called authentic relating. And the relating part of the practice is just as, and arguably even more important than the authentic part. A lot of personal development modalities, I would say, emphasize and provide resources for people to live a more authentic life and to be more authentically expressed in the world, which is a beautiful thing. But authentic relating really recognizes that we're in relationship with other people who are having their own unique experience on the other side of the relational divide. And so we want to create a space in which not only we can be authentic, but we can invite authenticity and authentic expression from another. And so it's a really collaborative practice, and I think it brings a necessary dose of humility into the practice of authentic expression so that we can create a space of safety, welcoming, and invitation for other people to join us in both authentic expression and the receiving of each other's expression.

Yes, I love that so much. I mean, I love— well, first of all, one of the things I learned very early on was to slow things down, and I just noticed that you're doing that, you know, just the slowing down of speech so that it it can actually land somatically in the body and to actually be in this moment. So many of us talk so fast, myself included as a former New Yorker. And I love that, that piece about this work is slowing things down. And yeah, and like you said, the relating piece of the authentic relating word is really like the focus here is how do we create relationships that actually feel like We're being seen and we're sharing parts of ourselves that feel emergent rather than informational. And I think that this piece about the levels of relating is something that I just learned. I'd love for you to share a little bit about the levels of relating. And I mean, this for me was so phenomenal, like the, how valuable it is to discern this practice between, you know, informational versus relational, for example. So can you speak about that?

Yeah, sure. I mean, just a quick note on the slowing down, and an ironic quick note. I think slowing down, yeah, I mean, it's the first chapter I write about in the book. I think it's the precursor to being able to actually fully enter into the world and landscape of real human connection I think we're still as humans wired as we have been for millennia up until the very recent, recent modern age, and we moved at a very slow pace, I think, until recently, uh, through our days and our conversations. I remember seeing a study of indigenous cultures and tribes that are still existent around the world today and looking at how they spent their days. And it turned out that the vast majority of the time of a person's day in these indigenous tribes was spent doing nothing, nothing at all, just sitting around idly without any agenda or plan or project. And that was, yeah, really inspiring to, to read about and try to bring an element of that into my life. And I would say I'm— I feel the greatest sense of peace and ease, whether it's by myself or with another, when we're in a really slow pace and in silence and just being and appreciating the present moment. So that ties directly into the three levels of conversation that you reference, where the highest level is informational. That's where we're literally just exchanging data about the world, about things, about the past or the future. The weather is sunny today. I have to go bring my kid to school later today. It's just facts. And if you start to notice, this is one of the first invitations we make of people, is notice how much of your conversation with people is the transactional exchange of facts and data. And then how does that feel? How does that feel in your body? And typically it's dry, it's flat, there's no life to it. And then the second level down is what we call the emotional or personal level of conversation. Now we're talking about our feelings about the information. You know, it's the weather is sunny today and yeah, I'm feeling happy that I get to go out later in the sun. So we're starting to get a personal reference point for how we orient to and relate to the data, which has us feeling ourselves and each other a bit more deeply. And that's mostly where people bottom out at. And yet what authentic relating offers is a third level, which is the relational level of conversation, and that's specifically defined by the here and now, what's happening right here in this physical space, what's happening right now in this spatial moment. And the beauty of living at and exploring the relational level of conversation is that there is no pre-existing script for it by definition, because this moment has never happened. And then this moment and this moment and this moment. We're all occurring for the first time. And so it has us in this sort of naked, open, unstructured place in which we don't rely on the scripts and patterns that we otherwise would use to move through the world. And so it sort of injects this freshness and aliveness in the present moment. A lot of my work these days is coaching people, singles, in the dating world. And so one of the most common suggestions I'm offering them out on first dates is to drop into this here and now, present moment, relational level conversation. Something like, how are you doing? How are you feeling right now? How's this date going for you? How are you feeling about where we're at? What's happening for you, what's alive for you. And this is all what's happening for me and how I'm feeling in this moment. And it's also because of this unscripted nature and because it's providing a window into how we're actually feeling right now, it also is the space in which the greatest experience of intimacy can occur between two people. And I think we know this just in life in general. I mean, meditation, for anyone who practices any form of meditation is about bringing your attention to the present moment. And so there's, there's something already compelling about dropping away out of, you know, ruminating and dissecting and analyzing the past, or trying to predict and live in the future, and just dropping into what's happening here and now. You know, I've heard this also called like a flow state. And for anyone who's in sports or activities, you might be striving for that flow state. So it's similar. It's like there's no thought about what has happened or what will happen. It's really just being in this present moment. And when you can bring that into a relationship and conversation with someone, bring that flow state to interrelational presence. Yeah, it's, it's a really beautiful and uplifting, enlivening experience.

Yeah, I love that, the, the present moment and the emergence of whatever arises, you know, in that moment, in the expression. I think I remember this word, um, the intersubjective. My friend, a longtime mentor of mine, used to tell me that the only thing I really care about is how are you navigating and experiencing what's happening. I don't actually care about the external world, the details. It's just like, but what's going on inside? And it was funny because she used to host these like salons in the Bay Area, and one person was like, this whole evening I had no idea what anyone was saying. You know, that was actually my experience of this evening. And yeah, there is something really powerful in just being able to speak what's truly, you know, happening for someone without them the need to perform or to wear a mask. And I think that, I mean, I'm just kind of anecdotally noticing, um, that this is— there's such a loneliness epidemic on our planet right now, and especially in the West, I would say, especially in these like remote work environments where you're just like basically hanging out with yourself. And, um, and so I'm curious, like, what's, what's sort of the first thing you would tell someone who's feeling lonely or feeling like disconnected from themselves, you know? And we can even, you know, we can even get into the 5 practices, but I'm just curious, like, do you have kind of like an overarching question for, for people to sort of ponder with when it comes to connecting with their own loneliness?

Yeah, the first of the 5 practices is welcome everything. So right off the bat, I think we want to notice where it is that we're making certain aspects of our experiences wrong and they should be different, and we need to shift out of the experience that we're in into something better, which can be a mask for escape. And so we actually want to just land first in the experience that we're having. What is the experience that we are labeling as lonely? What's happening there? Can we get underneath the thoughts, the comparisons, the distracted stories that we might have about who we are, what that means, and just get to the level of feeling and sensation? What's actually happening there? And that could be a million different reasons as to what might be underlying the process that culminates in the label of lonely. And often you can actually— it's ironic— you can actually cultivate a completely different experience by welcoming the experience that you're actually having right now and create more space around it. So that's the first thing I would say is stop making the thing that we're labeling lonely wrong and just welcome it and just be with it. It can be that that itself is a symptom of trying to construct some kind of self-narrative or life narrative that is contrived. You know, for me, I'm often with people, with my kids, I'm out in community, out in the world, And I so appreciate, and I'm so grateful for the times that I get to just be alone and to be in this open space of just allowing space to feel what is there for me to feel. I mean, lonely can really, like I said, just be an escape away from the feelings that are actually there that would benefit from being felt. And engaged with and related to. So that's the first thing I would say. And then to the extent that, okay, cool, you know, I've been with myself and my feelings, and yeah, I would like to feel more connection in my life, I would say, yeah, like, there's opportunities to connect with other humans every day and in every part of the day. You don't need to have these profound you know, super close, deep friends and conversations. I tell people, when you go out to the grocery store, just be more, more present there, more available for connection. It could be connecting with the person you're standing in line with, or it could be the cashier is checking out your groceries, you know, just a simple, how's your day going? Even that alone can be a source of nourishment. And a feeling of feeling more connected to the world. So just as you go about your day, you know, I mean, a lot of people go to work in offices or spaces in which they're sharing space with other people, and everyone's just sort of on autopilot and just going about their task list and their day. What's it like to, you know, create a new context for oneself wherever you're in shared space with other humans of reaching out, of bringing a little bit of humanity to those spaces, you know, just simply asking, you know, how are you? How's your day going? What's going on? Here's what's happening for me. I spent a fair bit of time flying on airplanes, and I made it a practice— I write about this in the book— I made it a practice that I would at least try to spark up a conversation with whoever sat next to me on the airplane. And there's no stakes there. It's like there's no other purpose than to just have an opportunity for connection with another human that you'll probably never see again. And, uh, it was so enriching actually to be the first one to offer a gesture of connection and so often be reciprocated and met. In that. And then having so often really nourishing and enlivening conversations with people. I think nowadays, you know, people are with the, you know, the deep integration of phones and screens and, you know, earbuds and all that. It's like, yeah, you can create this little bubble for yourself basically everywhere you go. And it's this, you know, I think that's this weird tension where we have at our disposal these mechanisms that can induce an individual bubble more than ever. And yet we're also saying how lonely we are and how much more connection we would like to have in our lives. So, you know, I encourage people to be an agent of that. You know, yeah, yeah, it's true. You actually have to sort of pierce beyond your own impulse to bubble up and reach across into the bubble of another and extend the hand. Hey, I'm here. You know, we don't have to be totally isolated even as we sit inches away from each other and see what happens. Yeah, I mean, I was so pleasantly surprised by how responsive people were to my initiating contact. Yeah, so that's what I would say is people— we are— I really believe we're all wired for connection. And, you know, we live in a modern world that has us so easily withdraw into our respective bubbles, even as I don't think we really feel that fulfilled there. So if you can be the first one to initiate contact, it's scary as it might be, I think you'll be so rewarded and surprised by what comes back.

Wow, it's so lovely to, to be in this conversation with you. I've done 270 interviews, and, um, you know, this— it feels just the way that you're showing up, it— if I feel very seen. And I also love that there's no interruption, there's space. Yeah, there's like a real presence here, and I I'm just, I wanted to name that and call that out because, you know, it's obvious that you've done the work and it just shows. So I just wanted to share that. And I feel it's different in terms of our dialogue, our connection. I'm also curious since, you know, to put this into practice, what's arising for you in this moment?

Yeah, I mean, I love that you named that. It's like we're talking about the thing while here we are as two humans interacting ourselves. It's partly interesting because, It's audio only, so I can't see you at all. But it kind of harkens back to the time of long phone calls you might have with somebody in your life. Yeah, I mean, one thing I've come to appreciate— I'm grateful you named sort of spaciousness— is the quality of spaciousness and silence that can occur between two people that doesn't in any way diminish the experience of connection. Between those people. And, uh, yeah, I mean, given that we are here talking about this practice which really hinges on our choosing to slow down so that we can feel more, it's sweet to sort of feel an integrity with that here in this conversation. I can feel the kind of being soothed and state of calm, which actually is— I'm appreciating in the midst of an otherwise pretty busy workday. And it has me actually also expand a bit more to be attuned to the surrounding environment. What am I— it's like tunnel vision, right? So much of our lives are tunnel vision. What happens when I expand the horizon of my awareness and noticing And, you know, look around and just see, you know, the quality of sunlight on surfaces, you know, the wood desk in front of me, how it feels to put my hand on it, uh, the surface of the chair underneath me, things like that.

You know, something I'm noticing too— thank you for, for that— and, uh, even bringing in the sensorial, you know, experience of feeling and touching. It just kind of occurred to me as I'm like talking to you that, you know, in full disclosure, I think for me, I feel— I felt a lot of times when I was younger that there was just such a desire to like entangle or enmesh. I'm very sensitive. I'm quite an empath. And so there's a desire to create like a little bit of space and a boundary. So I'm very aware when people want to get closer but do it in a way that feels intrusive, that feels like there's an desire to kind of come into my space. Where this practice actually, what is so revolutionary is that it's so intimate, but it's also very sovereign. Like it's really keeping people in their own experience while also being expansive and while also being intimate. And so I just wanted to call that out, that nuance, because that's something I was like, wow, I couldn't really figure out like what was the difference of this kind of way of relating versus other ways which feel, you know, a little intrusive or enmeshed. And I'm wondering if, if that occurred to you too, if you could speak to that.

Yeah, I mean, that's kind of encoded in the name itself, authentic relating. It maintains this balance between being authentic, which is my own authentic experience as I'm experiencing it, distinct from your own, and then the relating part is what unites us, is what creates the container inside of which we're relating and sharing a sense of common reality. So that's, that's the sort of aspirational structure and spirit of the practice. And then I would say, in my experience, most people have been modeled one or the other in childhood upbringing learning from models of adults and caregivers. Some people are more at the authentic end, and in our authentic relating language, we have, you know, this contrast between dignity and humility, with a respect of shadows being posture. And the shadow of dignity, that's really just being sort of super entitled, and I'm better than everybody, smarter than everyone, and above everyone. And then collapse is the corresponding shadow of humility. It's the exact opposite. Everyone's better than me, smarter than me. I'm nobody, I'm worthless. And so I'd say a lot of us were raised in one end or the other where we have more access to authentic expression and really speaking our minds and being honest and being direct and more independent And then some of us are more prone to kind of ceding space to another, giving way to another, putting ourselves lower than others. We might pride ourselves in how we listen and are curious about others, but it could also be a mask for how we collapse in relational dynamics. And so, you know, this contrast of dignity and humility, and, and really in The entire practice of authentic relating is the opportunity to first identify where it is that I am located on that spectrum by default, and then where is it that I can move towards the other end, the other pole, as a way of bringing myself to the middle and having a sense of balance and access to both dignity and humility, authentic expression and relating and listening and creating space for another. So, you know, wherever you start, wherever your entry point is into this practice, one roadmap and one trajectory through it is to calibrate to the middle so that we have equal access to speaking and listening, to honoring ourselves and honoring others, to feeling dignified in ourselves, to feeling humble with others. Yeah, so, you know, I, I often speak about the middle way. I'm not obviously not the first to reference the middle way of living, um, a conscious life, but I love how that is informed and guided by the practice.

And I'd love to actually talk about the practice, uh, Ryle, the 5 practices which are in your book, and, um, you know, how people can start applying them. And maybe we won't talk about all 5. I know you just mentioned one, which is to welcome everything. But yeah, I would love to, to talk a little bit about some of these practices and, and how our listeners can start to actually play with at least one of them after this call and see how that lands.

Yeah, welcome everything is, is the first, and that's really the starting point. You can't really skip it. And that itself can be a lifelong meditation and aspiration. The first question is, what is it that I'm not welcoming in myself or in another? What is it that I'm avoiding or suppressing or not acknowledging? And so that sets us on the path towards wholeness, wholeness in our individual selves, wholeness being creating a space in which all parts of ourselves are welcome. No matter how uncomfortable or painful or confronting or shameful? And then where is it that we can then extend that experience of welcoming and of making whole toward others? And then how can we make whole our relationships so that we can include more of that which would otherwise be in the shadow and suppressed? And then even beyond that, how can we make all our communities our countries, our world. There's no end to the scale that welcome everything can be applied. And then beyond that, the second is assume nothing. So noticing how it is that we conflate assumptions with reality, how we apply what we think is true onto what actually is true, and where is there a discrepancy between the two. So an invitation to becoming more intimate with reality itself. And then the third is reveal your experience, which is sort of defined by the name itself. Can I be seen more? Let myself be seen? I think we all have this deep abiding desire and longing to be loved, welcomed, appreciated, honored for who we actually are. And yet we have to allow ourselves to be seen by others to be able to actually fulfill on that longing. And again, going back to like how I support people in the dating world, well, one of the most important questions early on, and then really even through early stages of relationship, is how much are you filtering of yourself? Because of this idea that only parts of you are actually acceptable and worthy of love. And so you have to hide the other parts of you, which creates all kinds of other byproduct side effects. So bring your whole self to the world, to relationships, to conversations. The fourth is own your experience, taking responsibility for the experience that you are having and want to have in the future. So this is sort of the antidote to victim mentality. No matter what I do, I'm, you know, stuck with what I've got, no way to change it. So playing with that, owning your experience, and it's also recognizing that no other person really is the source of the experience that you're having. They create events and have impact, and then you have the freedom to be with that impact, to interpret it, to construct a narrative into which those interpretations are woven, and creating more freedom and empowerment around that. Turns out you can actually create any narrative that you want for yourself in your life, rather than being subject to the ones that you thought were imposed upon you. And then the fifth is honor self and other. That's really the outcome of practicing everything else in the practice of authentic relating, you naturally will then honor yourself and honor others. And that's kind of referenced back to what I was saying earlier. Some, some people are— it's more easy for them to look out for themselves first at the expense of other people, and then vice versa, prioritize other people's needs and wants over their own. So where is it that we can come into calibrated balance between honoring my own needs, wants, boundaries, desires, preferences, and honoring those of another. And these are the best relationships, and these are the most conscious containers of relationship, are those in which we both strive to create maximal honoring of our respective values, needs, desires within the container of that relationship.

So, you know, I'm curious for, um, I have so many questions, Ryle. I'm like, wow, this is, to me, it's like one of the most important kind of work that we could be doing in this lifetime. And, um, you know, I'm actually curious, like, how did you end up on this path starting this organization? And, uh, what led you here? And, um, why do you think this work is so important?

I had pretty dysfunctional models of healthy relating growing up in my childhood and youth. And, you know, had pretty impactful events occur in my childhood that shaped the maps that I then applied and used in adult relationships, which had pretty significant blind spots and dysfunctions within them. Deeper in that relationship, you know, to the point that, you know, they couldn't be ignored anymore. And so, uh, you know, it was in the context of my deteriorating marriage that I felt like I've got to do something. I gotta find help, guidance, support, answers, anything to help me with what I'm experiencing. I was in a lot of suffering. And so that was the initial catalyst, as it is for many people. It's, you know, it's the silver lining and great potential inside of profound suffering is the catalyst to actually go seek the relief of that suffering. So I found that, you know, when we actually are humbled enough to pray, you know, to ask for help of the universe, of community, of friends, anybody. I need help. That actually the universe and people respond. It's almost like they've been waiting for that prayer. And, uh, yeah, and then that launched me into a whole series of explorations, workshops, therapies, modalities, retreats, uh, anything and everything that remotely seemed like it could be of support to me. And it was in the midst of that exploration that I ended up in a workshop here in Boulder at a place called the Integral Center, uh, and in a practice called circling. And it was a near-instant experience of awakening or transformation or something. That really just blew me away. Really, at its heart, was the experience of feeling welcome in my wholeness by others, far beyond how I could accept my own self. And so, you know, to have that kind of blueprint in the practice of feeling so welcomed in all of me was a really healing experience. And so from there, I wanted to learn everything I could about the practice. And then the next sequence from there was, how can we deconstruct and reconstruct the essence of this practice to be able to teach it in the form of training workshops to other people? And that was the genesis of what became ART and the workshops that we've offered since then around the world.

And you, you know, when you came to the, the 5 kind of ways to relate, it seems like that they're so like clear and there's like some deeper truth with each of them. I imagine like you probably spent a lot of time figuring out which of those kind of 5 ways of relating you'd include as like the, the blueprint. I'm curious how you came to those 5 as a, as like the list, because I'm sure that you could have probably created like a list of 100, right? But why those 5?

Yeah, some of them were kind of encoded in the circling practice that we were in during our own training at the Integral Center. They were just sort of spread around in different sort of sections of that training. And so the sort of like raw groundwork was already there. And then I would say it was— I mean, it took— we, we'd already started our— and we're delivering workshops before we had finalized and distilled down the practice, you know, authentic relating practice, to these 5 constituent practices. And so it really was actually living it out in the world. It was living it in many, many interactions with people, talking about it, listening to people share impact of the work in their lives. Playing with just sort of different formulations, uh, until it kind of just sort of crystallized into, you know, what we've ever since called the Five Practices of Authentic Relating. But yes, I would say it wasn't us just like sitting at a, at a table and trying to chart this out, you know, and figure it out. It really was living it in our bodies and our hearts and in the world, on the field, and paying attention to the intelligence of the application of the practice as the source of guidance for how to articulate and define it in that way.

I'm curious, Ryle, how do we stay authentic when the person that we're connecting with can't meet us there? You know, there's a quote by Robert Otto. He says, you know, people can only give us a level of intimacy that they've met within themselves. And, you know, I'm curious, how do you, how do you stay authentic when, let's say, someone is only kind of capped at the informational level and doesn't know their own emotional experience, or when being honest might even rupture a relationship? How do we stay authentic?

I would say one, one of the most intimate experiences we can have with another human is simply resting and being in silence together. And I think we know that from watching a mother and a child, an infant, or being that infant or being that mother. That's among the most intimate and core ways of relating with another being and another human that there is. And so it doesn't matter in that space, doesn't matter your training or experience or background or ability to express yourself emotionally or anything. So I'd say that that's available to all of us. I think we talk too much generally, and I think we rely on words too much as it is. So, you know, what's it like to bring back and restore this experience of intimacy and intimate connection without having to say or do anything but just to exist and coexist with another being? And then beyond that, you know, the way that I've tried to teach authentic relating is to always meet the other person where they're at, no matter where they are at. And so if for whatever reason they only want to or are available to talk about the weather or what they had for breakfast or where they went on vacation, can I just meet them right there? It's, you know, disconnection probably often occurs because I'm trying to impose a certain agenda or trying to like steer and like force the conversation and connection to go a certain way. I mean, I hear this a lot with people and their parents, right? It's like, I can't, I can't talk to my parents, they just, they don't understand me, you know, they don't have the emotional capacity to meet me. But are you meeting them, right? It's like, flip it around. Like, if you're so evolved and so capable, then you should be the one to cross that divide and be with them and sit with them in their world. So, you know, that's— so that's what I encourage people to do, is just drop the, you know, holier-than-thou and I'm more evolved and you can't meet me. It's like, good luck with that, you know.

Oh my gosh, I'm laughing, but I'm also just like noting like my own a struggle with this, which is like feeling like I have to squish like a— and there's no like, there's not an egoic thing, right? But it's just sort of like having to like feel like I have to squeeze myself in a box in order to, you know, see the world in a completely different way that feels smaller. I think that's the— yeah, I think it feels physically hard, not even emotionally hard. It feels physically hard in my body.

Yeah, I mean, I, you know, I, I also think it's important to consider the distinction between people who just don't want to connect or want to go deep or want to connect with you intimately versus people who can't and don't know how but actually do want to. Yeah, and I would say that's the vast majority of people fall in that category, which is why, you know, there's— that's the whole premise behind training, right? Offering training. It's like, yeah, part of you I'm sure longs to experience the quality of intimate connection with another that you might have had, you know, as a baby or fleetingly in your earlier life, or you know is possible but you just don't know how to actually access it. Right, so, you know, hopefully we can give you some resources to be able to create that for yourself and for others. Um, but I, I'll say, you know, I spent many years in deep, deep, deep in the authentic relating world and community where, you know, everyone's got these skills and we're always going deep with each other and all of that. It can create a kind of insulation. It's like, well, I can only relate with people who can go that deep, and it's totally not true. Like, it was so relieving actually to step away from that whole world and just go be with people, you know, like in the quote-unquote sort of real world or mainstream world, and not need to go deep or talk about our feelings, just to actually hang out and just, yeah, like, what's up in your life? What have you been up to? You know, what's, what's your life been like in the past? Like, what are your— what are you hoping to do in the future? Just simple, simple conversations. Um, and then maybe sharing, you know, like a, like a shared experience. Like, well, look at the experience that we're having right now, you know, this hike in the forest or walk along a lakeshore, you know, or just at this cafe or wherever you happen to find yourself. You know, um, you get to share an experience like that. You don't have to force it to be something more than it is, you know, when actually the most fulfilling and nourishing connection is just simply sharing quiet space with someone.

Wow. Yeah, I think it's hard. We, like, a lot of us just don't have space or have not created space in our life to, to have that kind of even just silence with self. So yeah, I love, I love all this work. I think it's so incredibly powerful. And I'm curious, you know, looking back on your journey, Ryle, what sorts of things have surprised you the most?

I would say first it was when I was able to transcend my fear and terror of revealing these deep hidden parts of myself with others, that they didn't like run away or try to get away or withdraw or push me away or push me down or judge me. It was all the opposite. They came closer, uh, they revealed more of themselves. They would often reveal like, wow, I've had that experience as well, like a universalizing of parts of my own experience that I thought I only had myself. Turns out we— the things that we think we're, you know, the things that make us ashamed to be who we are and to have these things singularly are actually the very things that are the most universal among humans. So there's this like, um, revelation that by revealing these most shameful parts, it actually brings us in a closer connection with others because they have their own versions of pretty much the same exact thing. Yeah, and then both how, how much fear play— how much a role fear plays in our lives, the fear of being hurt, uh, and this coexistent tension between prioritizing safety and guardedness from being hurt, as many of us have already been in the past. Next to this simmering longing to really drop into a vulnerable, fully exposed, intimate connection with another, and to honor both, you know, to make room and honor both of those. Surprising in just the path that my life has taken in ways that I never could have predicted, really basically entirely by the influences of the relationships that I've had, interactions that I've had with other humans, and how, how beautiful of a way of living I think it is to let go of, or at least soften, plans, agendas, objectives, goals, and just allow oneself to go with the flow that is shaped and influenced by the unpredictable nature of humans coming into and out of our lives. And the interactions and conversations that we have with them. Yeah. And, um, yeah, I guess as I get— I'm 50 now, getting older and practicing slowing down all the more, and just how rich of an experience I'm having of life in the stillness and slowness and just looking around wherever I happen to be.

Wow. And also, why did you start this Quora app? What was the kind of purpose and genesis for that?

I mean, that's another example of like, I, I thought I was kind of like sort of done trying to like create big projects and have big impact and all that. I've already, you know, had a solid taste of that and, you know, really just kind of wanted to chill for the rest of my life. And then, yeah, it's exactly what I'm speaking of. I mean, it's just the confluence of various people in my life and the conversations that emerged out of those spontaneous interactions that was like, oh, this, this thing is germinating. I think, you know, ideas like this germinate just underneath the human collective, and then they, like water or something, like find the path of least resistance to the surface. And I think the combination of my own expertise along with my business partner Sophie's matchmaking expertise, and then a couple other people have come into that orbit, um, just created that path of least resistance for what I think is a really promising and meaningful paradigm shift in how people how single people date, how they meet each other, how they embark on the journey of intimacy and relationship. I think we've deviated in pretty, you know, pretty, pretty difficult ways and challenging ways from how humans, I think, are most wired to connect and meet and interact and explore connection. So we're trying to restore that and, you know, leveraging the fact that we do live in a modern technologically mediated world to create that, to support that. So it's kind of like meeting people again where they already are, which is on their phones and in the world that we live in. How can we leverage that while also restoring what I think is a deeply humanized way of meeting each other and infusing that with authentic relating skills and tools and, and ways of being and relating. Yeah, so, you know, I'd say traditionally we would meet each other in long-term social networks and circles, whether that was at work or religious institution or school or community outlets. We get to know somebody over a longer period of time and kind of build a model of that person across different social contexts. And then from that, you know, a romantic interest would naturally and organically emerge. We're not doing that at all today, right? It's like we're finding, you know, going out on dates that were like, in, like, instantly popped up for us on a, on an app, for many of us. And it's like, there's no way that you can get to know— you can compress getting to know somebody across months or years into the space of an hour or two. And then we're supposed to make this kind of final judgment about whether or not they're, you know, compatible or suitable as a life partner. I mean, one of the most important, if not the most, one of the most important decisions you'll ever make in your life is who you choose as a life partner.

Yeah.

And it's insane that you would— I mean, even for a job, right, you, you go through several rounds of interviews. To determine a fit. And like, here we are in this paradigm where you're supposed to compress that exploration and feeling into something so momentous into an hour or two. It's just insane. And so we're, you know, what we're offering is really, really rich. I think, you know, probably the richest onboarding process of any dating app out there, where we really are spending a lot of time with new users, understanding them from every angle down to level of values, subconscious dreams, longings, visions, every aspect of how they orient to relationships and dating and partnership, family history. Yeah, it's a really rigorous process to build this really comprehensive, multifaceted profile so we can really understand a person And then we apply really cool, really, I think, cutting-edge analysis that also captures the timeless matchmaking intuition of how two people might meet and be a good match for each other. And that's where we're applying, you know, the best of AI analysis to look at this raw data that we've captured from each user and then being able to produce highly compatible matches, not just at the level of one or two dates, but for an entire lifelong partnership. And we're able to predict the aspects of compatibility that will lead to a really vibrant, healthy, sustainable, long-term relationship. and then bringing those people into an introduction that itself is facilitated to really maximize depth and connection and aliveness and curiosity. And then from there, we're continuously evolving and adding to each user's profile and captured data to provide ongoing super customized coaching, mentorship, reflections, guidance, training, insight, so that people have really the best chance of experiencing beautiful, sustainable, deep, enriching relationships with others.

Wow. I'll ask you for the link at the, at the end, um, and we can also include it in the show notes because I'm sure folks are going to be interested in, in signing up. And, you know, as we kind of close down, Ryle, I'm, uh just so grateful for this conversation. What is your main takeaway, call to action? What do you want people to do or think about the moment they get off this, or the moment that they finish this conversation?

I would say that, you know, the heart of this practice, really more than anything, is not learning anything new. It's remembering what might have been forgotten, and that's that we are connective creatures. We need each other. We are most enriched and fulfilled by real connection with each other. We are a part of a greater network and constellation of the human experience. And with everything that's happening in the world and all the reasons why we're pushing each other away, I think it's vital that we remember that we all as humans share this deep primal instinct and impulse towards connection, and that it is also so available and inviting of us all around us, wherever we are, whatever we're feeling and experiencing. And to bring our whole real selves to those connections— you don't have to filter and contrive some version of yourself to be worthy of connection. You are worthy of connection exactly as you are. That's what I want people to remember.

Wow, beautiful. And, and where can people learn more about authentic relating? Where can they learn more about the Cora app and, and just even connecting with you in general?

Yeah, so the company I co-founded, Art International, is thriving and always offering workshops online, offline, around the world, year-round. So they're at authenticrelating.co. Then I have my own coaching practice helping couples and individuals have better relationships in their lives. You can read more about me at rylecastano.com. And then the new project is, yeah, the Cora dating and relationship app. That's at cora.dating. And then my book is available on Amazon.

Amazing. And actually, I have one last question before we wrap up because it's something that just struck me during the conversation is How do you remain so humble throughout this, this work, this process that you've been, been in over the last, I don't know, a couple decades?

Uh, I would say that the world smacks me down if I get too high and mighty again and again and again. So I think it's a self— it's like a, uh, you know, objectively regulating process, um, that I seem to be, uh, you know, in relationship with in the world.

Beautiful. Rael, thank you so much for your time. This was just so enriching and illuminating, and I'm so grateful that you put this work out in the world. I'm excited to even just be in the class, and I've learned so much already. So thank you so much for, for all of it.

Yeah, my pleasure. Thank you.

And for our audience, thanks for joining and for listening. In this episode, we learned about authentic relating and so much more with Rael Castano. And you could tune into Gateways to Awakening, where we host one-on-one conversations with leading experts in wellness, wellbeing, and spirituality. Thanks again. Hey there, it's your host, Yasmin. If you've been enjoying Gateways to Awakening, I'd love to invite you to go even deeper with me. You can visit innerknowingschool.com to sign up for my newsletter, where I share exclusive insights on intuition, consciousness, and personal transformation. And if you're ready to take your journey to the next level, you can join my next group coaching cohort where we explore practical tools to help you trust your inner knowing and navigate your life with clarity and confidence. You can also follow my latest thoughts and discoveries on my Substack. The link is in the show notes, or you can connect with me on Instagram @therealyasmineT where you can find my Substack on my Linktree. I absolutely love hearing from my audience, so please send me a message and let me know what are you enjoying, what would you like to see more of? And if you found value in this podcast, it would mean the absolute world to me if you left a review. Your feedback helps others discover Gateways to Awakening and join this incredible community of seekers and changemakers. Thanks for being here, and as always, just wishing you the absolute best.