Going from complexity to simplicity with Dr. Penney Stringer

Hello, my friends, and welcome to Perfect Practice. Another great episode in store for you today. Today My guest is Dr. Penny Stringer, and she is a practitioner that I've had the honor and the privilege of working with in our mentorship community. But more importantly, she is somebody who is a total trailblazer. And if you have the honor and privilege of following her online, I suggest you follow her adventurous life. She's a mother of two spirited children, and I know you're really going to enjoy our conversation today. So without further ado, Penny, thank you for joining me today. And thank you for being so willing to share a little bit more about your journey and some of the things that have helped you along the way in the hopes that it helps some of our listeners today.

Thank you so much for having me, Sachin. I'm very thrilled to be with you, any chance I get.

Well, thank you. I appreciate that. I've always enjoyed our interactions, and I know this is going to be no exception to that. So why don't we get right into it and perhaps you can tell us a little bit more about where your journey in functional medicine starts. You're a traditionally trained medical doctor, and then obviously you transitioned into functional medicine and now run a very successful practice. What was the impetus for you to make that leap of faith into the functional medicine world?

So right out of residency, I started working at a community health center outside of Seattle in Redmond, which is the home of Microsoft now, but so, and I was working with a lot of immigrants and refugees and, you know, people on the margins. And it happened that the federally funded community health center was also affiliated with Bastyr University. So part of the clinic, there was a fully funded acupuncturist. There were naturopaths. There were also naturopathic students running through the clinic. And I was, you know, family doctor. I, I was able to deliver babies at that time and see pediatrics and the whole full range family medicine. But what I found myself doing was that I found myself referring everyone to the things I knew could help them. I, I was left with a prescription pad, but I was referring everyone out to the things I knew that could help them. Like there was a nutritionist, there was a naturopath, acupuncturist, and there was a counselor. And there was a, there was a dispensary that was federally funded, too, of, like, vitamins and herbs. And those are the things I knew would help people. And so I did that for a while and I did hospital work and all that associated with that clinic. But what I realized is all I was doing, all that was left for me to do was write the prescriptions. And one day I. I actually felt sick writing for a medicine I knew was harmful. And that's like. Around that same time, a patient had been to a naturopath and had anky. Ankylosing spondylitis. A young, A young kid, Hispanic kid. And he had really bad back pain, but he came back and was given antibiotics and fish oil for a gut infection. And he was all better. Like, I was ready to, like, give him the pain medicine, but he was all better. And that was. That was 20, that was 2,000. And so they treated his gut bug and his autoimmune disease got better. And then my, My brain was just like, kind of blown open. And I was like, what's up with this? And so about the same time, I was invited to a Jeffrey Bland lecture on 2000 in Seattle. He was, you know, the. He's the grandfather of functional medicine. He ran Metagenics at the time. And so I started going to these free lectures that Jeffrey Bland was giving in the early 2000s. Invited. I was invited by a naturopathic student because I had the students coming through the clinic. I was showing them how to do Pap smears and all the, you know, the family medicine stuff. And this one, she traded me. I showed her how to do Pap smears and she traded me, like, come, come listen to this lecture. And, and it was all about the microbiome and like, all the biochemical pathways. And I was like, holy moly. This is what I thought we were going to learn in medical school. How come. How come it wasn't lit up like, with light bulbs like this? And it just went from there. I just was in the right time, right place at the right time, right out of residency, really, before functional medicine was a word. And then I got invited and went to my first training and not, not too long after that. And then the rest is history. But the history is amazing because I got to meet my mentor when I moved to this new town who already was practicing functional medicine in the early 2000s. Had a wait list of five. Five year wait list of people. They were all handwritten in a notebook, waiting for a young green doc with a spring in her step to come into the town. And then, not only that, this is just funny. I love to tell a story because it's. It tells you about serendipity and like providence. I, I believe is that also at the same time, the hospital, it's an underserved area where I live, or at least it was, it still is for family medicine. And the hospital was actively recruiting physicians at the time for, for primary care. Well, meanwhile, this woman who was doing functional medicine had all this wait waiting list of patients from all the states surrounding us. And she went to the hospital, said hey, I really need a new doctor, knowing it was me and the doctor's like, oh, we have someone. And so the two of us. So the, the hospital funded our functional medicine clinic, which was unheard of at the time. Right. It was 2003. They funded it, they funded my salary, they funded the starting of the, of this wellness clinic. And there were. And so I had a mentor day one out, out right from my Institute for Functional Medicine AFMCP course that was in Boston day one I had a mentor. I had all the testing, I had all the supplements and I had all the patients lined up to see me and I had a salary that I didn't have to worry about. So I feel like it was like, you know, it was what I was supposed to do. And so that's, that's the story of the Beacon, right? That's.

Well, you know, that's the first time I'm hearing that story. And I'm not surprised because you're the type of person in our interactions has always been very positive and has been met with great fortune but not because of just fluke or random chance, but because you're, you're such a positive person. You're dedicated to your craft, you're always looking to up level and improve and I believe that the universe rewards that. So you know, I jokingly say this, but I think it's true that luck is works Evil twin. And so when we put in the hard work pays off in so many different ways. And it's that community so blessed to have someone like you so open and ready to serve and, and be a value to them. So paint, paint a picture for us. Like how did that turn out? Like, you know, you've, you've got a salary, you've got a waiting list or people that are ready to jump in enthusiastically jump in and work with you. And you've got the hospital kind of funding this, this project or business. Tell, tell, tell me a little bit more about that journey.

Oh yeah. So it was a blessed situation. I mean in every way patient like it was all insurance so people could get the best like I feel like the best care with two really dedicated physicians and it was all insurance based and we were free to do what we wanted, like, what we believed in. And it was not regular western medicine. It really wasn't. It was functional medicine all. All out from the very beginning. And we did all, you know, all women's care and men's care and, you know, like, complicated functional medicine cases. Like, my first. My very first patient, right after the course, AFMCP course was a guy. We have the most toxic cleanup site here in. In the country. It's called Hanford, Hanford Nuclear site, which was from the making of the atomic bomb. I mean, it's terrible history, this town where I live, but it's a. It's a toxic cleanup site. That's where a lot of the jobs are that are here, is. Is in the cleanup. So we have this beautiful river that runs through, but there's a lot of toxicity. And I don't think that's necessarily an accident either, that I'm here to help people's detox systems and their hormonal imbalances. But so. So my very first patient was like. He was completely chock full of heavy metals. And I was like, oh, my gosh. This is. This is what they told me about in the. In the class. And then I just. It was amazing. Like, sometimes that would happen where you think about something and then the patient would walk in with that exact ailment. And who knows what that's all about? But for you to learn, like, for us to learn, you know, I think that there's. I think that the universe is conspiring for our wholeness and our success. But if it's. If you're paying attention. So I just taught my daughter that yesterday is like, I look down on the. On the fence next to my house, at the neighbor's fence, and through the coolest. Like. Like, I don't know what they are. I'm going to go investigate them. But they're like these, like, sacs. Like maybe they're spider sacs or maybe they're like a cicada shell. It's not quite like a cicada, but I actually feel like things are put in our path to see if we're awake and see if we're paying attention. And I think that can happen with your patients and with your process as a. As a healer and as a business owner. And I think the key is, like, paying attention, really paying attention. And if you want to learn about something, actually request it from whoever's listening, from whoever's listening and see how long it takes to show up at your doorstep.

I love that such sage advice and it sounds simple. And usually the best advice is simple. What are some. You know, we could. We. We can. I can certainly relate to that. Right. I think one of the greatest gifts that we can give to ourselves and those around us is our presence and being in the moment. And I sense that, you know, from our interactions as well. But I also sense that you're somebody who has an intense, in a positive way, a very intense sense of presence. Where do you cultivate that from? Is that something that was part of your upbringing? Is that something a skill that you've developed over the years, books that you've read, you know, travels that you've gone. Gone through? Like, where does that come from?

That's a wonderful question, Sajid. My dad was a keen observer of nature. He was a biologist, environmental scientist. He studied. He had his. His science. His doctorate in parasitology from Johns Hopkins. And he also had a very childlike way of viewing the world, like a beginner's mind kind of thing. I didn't know that word, really, but that was my dad. He was a beginner's mind. And he actually, with this beginner's mind, he asked the most profound questions, like, what happens inside the chrysalis of the monarch butterfly? He. He started studying butterflies later in his career because he was on an environmental project to save this one endangered species on a. On a project. But he got really into it, and then he was granted money by this random guy on the Internet, before the Internet was even a thing. Random guy sent him a ton of money that used to go to Duke University and study what's happening actually inside the chrysalis of the monarch butterfly. And he did MRI studies of the chrysalis, and he was the first one to ever identify exactly what happens within the chrysalis, with the whole, like, budding of the wing buds and, like. And he studied that and he wrote papers on it, and he went all around the world talking about his discovery because everyone had thought it just turns to mush. That's not what happens. My dad has the proof in the mri and he was asked to be on these IMAX documentaries which are still showing today, that one of them is called Migration. Anyway, that was. That was just one of the things he did. He also built amazing houses and he did all kinds of things. But one of my earliest memories with my dad is, like, going in the woods and he would just stoop down at your, like, randomly, and he would turn over a rock and he would show us, like, the whole universe underneath the rock with all these creatures and all these worms and all these little bugs. So I think he instilled in me some of that sense of presence. And then the other thing is I have the profound privilege. I learned how to meditate when I was 19. I was kind of anxious, kind of overachiever kind of girl. And luckily I went to Spain in my junior year abroad. I majored in Spanish literature for my college. But I went to Spain and I just saw that everyone was taking siestas like every day. And people back in college were like stressed out to the max and in parts of the world they were taking siestas and having a great life. And so when I got back, I learned to meditate through transcendental meditation. And I feel like just the first two days of learning transcendental meditation, when I went outside, I can still, I can still see it perfectly, but I could see every shade of green in the spectrum. And I'm always like, I have really great eyesight, but I had never seen every spectrum of green. So I think there's so many nuances to awareness and to paying attention. And the one other thing I wanted to just mention is I have the privilege to. I've studied a little bit of cranial sacral therapy, but I also work with a master cranial sacral therapist and he happens to be in my office too. And I just feel so lucky because the, the two of us have teamed up and the last 10 years, once or twice a month we do like a double hands on patients. Just for me it's just like, because I'm just so, like just so curious about everything. But, but I, I put acupuncture needles because I've to acupuncture school but. And I do a little cranial sacral, but he does, you know, he's more the master cranial sacral therapist. And we just sit in silence, you know, in an, an hour each patient. And I feel like that that has, has just given me so much just insight and awareness about the process of healing and like just being present with a human, another human being and just like holding the space for transformation and just like being there in their, like with their pain or their joy or their release or their. It's not always comfortable. Sometimes I have to do cranial sacral myself to release what I observe in others. Because there's a lot of pain and suffering in this world. There's a lot of pain and suffering and some of us are very in tune with that pain and suffering. And I feel like it's super Important that we do our own work to release what we observe so it doesn't get stuck in our bodies. And it can get stuck in our bodies. It really can get stuck in our bodies. Like, as a. As a person who wants to alleviate suffering, I think I feel like it's super important that others like us do periodic bodywork. You know, chanting, you know, ecstatic dance, you know, being in nature, grounding all that stuff to discharge it because, you know, we don't want to. We don't want to go down with a ship.

Such an important point you bring up. And just for the person who's listening and for clarification, what might that feel like? So how. How might that show up for somebody if they're not doing this work, if they're not dissipating this energy that's building up?

Oh, yeah, that's easy. I mean, so you could feel like you don't care as much or you. You feel burned out or you feel tired. For me, I notice I get like. My nervous system gets just really kind of shaky. Like, I'm super sensitive. I get shaky like. Or I'll get like. Or, you know, it could be any symptoms. Headache. I don't get headaches, luckily, but people can get headaches. They can get stomach upsets. They can. They can just feel like they're not sleeping well or all the things that are. That make you feel bad. It can be from holding onto other people's energy or not clearing your own energy or absorbing other people's things.

Yeah. I find that a lot of people in this space tend to be more on the empathic side of the spectrum. And it's easy for us to take on other people's challenges. And so it's really important that we have a modality, a tool or a way of. Of releasing this energy. So whether it's breath work, whether it's chanting, as you mentioned, grounding, just getting out in nature, you know, finding a cathartic practice, whether it's working out or yelling in the woods or having a way of releasing that. That energy that builds up. I also, personally, I like to use crystals, specifically selenite, because I find that that transmutes some of the energy that ends up coming our way. And it's always good to check in. Right. I think you bring up a great point. When we. When we stop caring or feeling like we're not caring as much or maybe not listening as intentionally, maybe we're losing that motivation or that drive that we once had. Those are good times for us. To check in as practitioners just to make sure that, you know, we're, we're doing the self care that we need so that we can keep serving others. And when we don't feel good, it's hard to help others feel good because we're just not coming from the right space. Right. It's, we've got to put our oxygen mask on first. And, and you know, I think that's a great lesson for a lot of people who are listening to this is what are you doing for your own self care? And when's the last time, you know, you did the things that you would tell your clients to do? So it's oftentimes like I almost feel like we need a mirror in front of us and almost like we're consulting ourselves and advising ourselves on exactly what we should be doing. And, and you've given some great suggestions, so thank you for that.

Yeah. We're not always the best at listening to our own advice. Right. It's, it's kind of amazing. We know how to help so many people, but we don't always listen to our, our inner wisdom.

Yeah. So take me back. So you, you started this practice and, and is that your current practice or have you evolved out of that and started your own practice since then?

Yeah, so. So that practice, we, we worked together for like five years and then we disbanded and went our separate ways. And then I had, I had babies too at that time, so that was part of it. And then I actually went off and worked in a community health center again when my babies were really little because I didn't want to run a business. And then I came back and started my own practice again. So there's been a few iterations and the difference now is I, I've done insurance, functional medicine in the insurance, in the insurance system up until a year and a half ago. So 18 years in the insurance, I proved it can be done. I proved that it, it's a viable system. All the doctors send their patients to me. The doctors in the system send their patients to me. They send their wives, they send their husbands, but at the expense of, of my, my vagus nerve. So I, with the help of Sachin and your mentorship, I was able to take the leap and jump out of the system. Also spurred by the way that we handled the recent pandemic, which was very telling to me and told me that my timing was done well.

Thank you for sharing that. Tell us a little bit more about. You had a mentor right from the very beginning, which I think is Crucial. And if I could give myself going back to the beginning of my career, some good advice it would be hire a mentor. Learn from their time and their dime, right? Because they've made all the mistakes or they've gone through the trials and tribulations and they're happy to teach you the things that you should and shouldn't be doing. Who are some of the mentors that have played a key role in different stages of your business growth?

So in my business growth, I really haven't had much business business training except for with your mentorship. Really. I mean that was really the first. I've, I've, I have to say this truthfully is that I've done everything by my heart. I don't do anything based on financial anything. I've, I've never chosen anything based on finances, which is dumb and kind of silly and naive. But it's what you said. I think when you have the right intention, things do work out and there's abundance that flows and I still have that in my, in my, in my way of doing things. And yet I'm a little more savvy. Thankfully a couple more years, I'm a little more savvy. I'm not quite as just la ti da about it all. So I'd say you've been a very helpful mentor for like thinking things with heart centered but also business and abundance, but abundance in beyond, you know, financially but also in like the bigger, the bigger part of abundance which thanks to your mentorship. Like I now, I now look at being in nature as part of my work. Like being in nature every day is part of my ability to do my work. So it's work. I'm going to work up the mountain. I'm going to work. Not that I needed to say it's work, but it, it does re some things about reframing that are. These are all for the business really. It is. And I've had another really important mentor in medical school. I got, this was another lucky thing is my, my mentor in medical school was Jim Gordon who is, he runs the center for Mind Body Medicine. And so at Georgetown, luckily he was on the faculty. It's just so lucky. But, but so he had a whole center in Washington D.C. and he's Harvard trained psychiatrist and acupuncturist. And I mentored with him as much as I could and he just informed so much of the way I think about healing to the point where so my whole thing also is just doing healing and community. And the reason I joined your mentorship was to really, really solidify the doing groups and, and really making community the, the hallmark of the, of, of the, of the dynamic and of the system. And Jim Gordon's, his, his training center for Mind Body Medicine and the Mind Body Skills groups, like that's the basis of all my groups. So I've come like I've kind of merged those two so it's like those are just, those are just been. And you're one of my great managers too, Sachin. Thank you so much.

Thank you.

Like learning business and healing and like that it can all be together and it's not separate.

Awesome. I appreciate that. Thank you. Glad I made the list. Have there been any pivotal books or courses or trainings that you've taken? You mentioned the IFM training. Was there anything else that sticks out to you? Any books or trainings that stick out to you that maybe practitioners should consider or check out?

Oh yeah, like the center for Mind Body Medicine Learning to Facilitate Mind Body Skills groups. I feel like we're doing group work. It's just, it's such a, such a eloquent and beautiful model for being a facilitator, but also just being in, in the group where you're actually a participant as well. And it's all my, it's all mindfulness based training. So that, and then I really feel like I had a, another pivotal shift last September, September 20th, I think it was September 2022 when I went to EA Conference. And you know that that's not really functional medicine indoors so much, but it helped me reframe the way I think about barriers to healing. And it was a missing link for me. It really was about the barriers and, and, and how to address toxins and, and these bugs, these stealth bugs that are, we're all kind of, we all have, or we can have if we're, if our barriers get down. So I really feel like that was really pivotal and I do want to say just two books that, that were pivotal recently actually the ones not so recent, but it's. My friend read the book, it's. Her name is Florence, Florence Williams and she wrote the Nature Fix. And so she, It's a really awesome. She was, she was paid to go all over the world to study the effects of nature and to actually go and study them like in labs too. So she took veterans on, veterans that had PTSD down rafting in these rivers and they had like psychiatrists, neuros, neuropsychol, neuropsychiatrist, neurobiologists and the journalist Florence and they hooked them up and studied them and they coined this thing called the three day effect. So it's after three days in nature, they showed the amazing biology that changes biochemistry, that changes that happen in the brain. And so that book, that book is so awesome. And I know her personally, so it was cool to, cool to actually have the book. I have that in my waiting room. The nature effects. Anyway, that's, that's what I can think of, book wise, right this minute.

Yeah, I know that. I, I love that. You know, it kind of reminds me. That three day rule that you're describing reminds me of a trip I went on. I went on a backcountry trip and it was three. The first time I went, it was three days and I felt such a massive shift in my body and my mood and just my outlook on life. It was so radically different. And it's almost like I walked into like a portal and I walked out as a changed person. And the next time I went, I just kind of intuitively knew that I needed to go a little bit longer. So I went on a five day backcountry portaging trip. And that had even more of a profound effect on me. So there, there's definitely something to the, the timeline. And it sounds like it's almost like fasting too, right? Like they say that the first three days of a fast are awesome, but it's like days four and five is, is when the real magic takes place. So, you know, if somebody's sitting on the fence about taking that time in nature and maybe even extending that time in nature from three to five to seven days, it sounds like the book reinforces that. My experience certainly reinforces that, and I don't think we do enough of that. And especially it's really interesting because forest bathing, as I'm sure you're aware and hopefully our listeners are aware of, is a medical modality. Right? It's a treatment that is prescribed to cancer patients and people with chronic illnesses. And how much simpler and more cost effective can it get than simply being out in nature? Right? Nature is such a powerful teacher and such powerful medicine for all of us to incorporate for ourselves for our own sanity and physical and spiritual health and mental health. But also how many of us are prescribing that to our patients and our clients? And I think that could be a missing link for a lot of people's healing journeys.

Yeah, I really agree with you, Sachin. There was a New York Times article just this past week that kind of summarized the recommendations for nature for Health benefits. And it's 23:5. So it's 20 minutes in your, you go in your town park, go in your yard three days a week. It's three. Okay. It's 20 minutes three days a week and then five hours a month. Do more of like a longer hike or somewhere like where you're just, you know, not looking at your cell phone, where you're outside in nature. And then the three is every year go three days off grid where you're, you know, it could be a cabin, it could be. It doesn't have to be. You don't have to camp. You don't have to camp if that's not your, your thing. But I thought that was so good. I'll send you the article. It's actually so well written and I've never seen it like summarized that succinctly. I think most people do that.

Yeah. That's amazing. I actually have, at the end of this month, I'm going on a three day snowshoeing trip and it's just going to be me, my brother and our guide. And so we'll be up, up north in the lakes freeze over where, where we're going in Algonquin park. And so we'll be doing some, we'll have like a sauna tent which will be really interesting. It'll be like a heated tent. And then we'll be snowshoeing. We'll cut a hole in the lake, go taking some cold dips in the water as well. So I'm super stoked about that. And again, I just can't agree enough that that's such an important thing that we should all be doing. And if people learn nothing from this conversation, I hope that it's that they spend some more time in nature because it's such a wonderful tool that's available and accessible to all of us.

I love that Sachin, that you're doing that with your brother. It's so great. So awesome.

Yeah, it's a very, very long overdue. He, he wasn't able to attend our last backcountry trips because our schedules didn't. His schedule didn't align with the trip. So I said, you know what? This time, because I had such a profound shift for me, I said let's find a date that works for you and then I'll make it work for me. And it's my birthday gift to him. So, so pretty stoked to spend some time with him like that.

That's so cool. And you, you mentioned, you mentioned fasting too. So I, I think fasting is so amazing. I'm on actually day three of prolon today right now. But it's amazing the shift I feel just the second day like it's such a, it's so simple, right? I mean prolon's kind of expensive, you don't need to spend that much money. But, but it's just amazing when you get into a fasting state like we, we all have that available to us. It's just so simple and, and some of our, some of us, our genetics and thank God to our ancestors and what they had to go through to perpetuate those, that lineage and those genetics that do well without food. Like I feel like hats off to my ancestors, but fasting is pretty phenomenal.

Yeah, I mean such a, again such an easy modality for anyone to integrate into their practices. And going back to the framework of simplicity, I mean, you know, a lot of times we, we might even over complicate the dietary recommendations that we give to our clients like eat this, not that and you know, eat a certain amount of this and, and so on and so forth. And it can become overwhelming for people, especially when they're trying to make some changes. But introducing the concept of fasting alleviates so much pressure and stress for people. And you know, they might decide to do the prolonged fasting mimicking diet where they get a whole kit and then they don't have to think about what they're going to eat or how much they're going to eat. It's all measured out and taken care of for them. Where they might decide to do a 24 hour water fast or you know, 72 hour water fast, you know, whatever makes the most sense for them. And I feel like it's becoming a much more utilized tool. And again it's like pretty much free and it's simple and it works. Right. That's the other component of it. So we've got nature as a modality, we've got fasting as a modality. Let's round it off. What would be your third top modality that you recommend?

I think body work. Working with the subtle energy of the body in whatever you gravitate towards working with the subtle energy of the body. And I was thinking about this yesterday, I think is that I think some of us need people like to go do these fancy things and stem cell this and IV therapy this and, and cryo that and hyperbaric, how much pressure and then hypoxemia and all that. But I think some of us it's it's important that some of us stick with the fundamentals of how the body is, is created and how. I don't know how the body's created, how the, how this, the simplistic. It's not, it doesn't mean it's not complex. It's. But it's like the fundamentals. I feel like the fundamentals. Some of us need to stick with fundamentals. And I'm happy to be one of those people. I'm really happy to call myself a generalist, a generalist fundamentalist. I'm not a fundamentalist. I really need to be a fundamentalist.

But I mean, careful.

Stick to the elemental. Stick to the elemental. Not a fundamentalist. Stick to the elemental. Because I think so many practitioners can get into it too, where they're looking for the fanciest thing. And like, maybe I won't make the most money, but you know what? I'm okay. I'm okay with, with really just going to the down to the earth. Down to the earth level. I'm okay with that. Yeah.

You know, it's, it's, it's interesting because I teach my son this as well in a different context, in the context of basketball and Michael Jordan started every practice with a chess pass, right? He didn't do like a dunk from the foul line to start his, his practice, right? He went right back to the, you know, the foundation. And the first principles approach, which I think is probably the term terminology we're looking for, is going back to the basics, right? It doesn't like healing, doesn't have to be expensive. It doesn't have to be fancy. It doesn't have to be like, you know, the latest and greatest technology or modality. Our body's been healing our entire lives, right? And it's been. Our bodies have been healing for centuries and generations, long before we were born. So it's programmed to do just. That's all it actually knows how to do is heal, repair, and regenerate itself. We just have to, as the chiropractic philosophy would say, get out of the way, right? It already knows what to do. We just have to provide the right environment and the right timeline in order for it to do its job. And we're learning more and more that the most foundational, simplest interventions are the ones that are actually proving to work the best. So something as simple as fasting, where you don't eat anything or eat very little, that seems to be working. Sleeping, right? There's a whole movement about how important something as simple as sleeping is. Even breathing. I know you're really into breathing and breath work. I mean, what's simpler than teaching people how to breathe properly? But what's also more disruptive than people who don't know how to breathe? Right. Their own worst enemy, because they're just constantly sending their nervous system the wrong message. So I love that. I love that you shared that. It's really going back to the foundation, going back to first principles, going back to simple, accessible, affordable. And, you know, the research is now, you know, validating that as well. So I appreciate you bringing that to the forefront and appreciate you bringing that into the forefront with your patients as well. It must be such a sense of relief for them when they realize how simple healing can be in your hands.

What's wild is it's usually what's missed. It's usually. It's usually like, I'm like, wait, I did all this training so I can teach people how to eat and breathe, like, and, like, touch nature? Like, wait a second. How is that possible? I mean, if that's what I needed to do, I'm okay with it. But, like, it just seems a little ironic and kind of like a cosmic joke. But that's what gets people better. I'm like, I have lots of years to show that's what gets people better.

Yeah. You know, da Vinci said that the greatest, greatest sign of sophistication is simplicity. And so, you know, sometimes as we advance in our careers and as we learn new tools and modalities, it can be very easy to complicate our practices. And I've been guilty of that. You know, I learned about a new test or I learn about a new protocol, and I want to implement it. And what I've always come back to is that simplicity scales and simplicity wins. And simplicity makes our services and what we do a lot more accessible as well. And. And there's a. A broader benefit. The more we can simplify our practices. Right. If we make them extremely bespoke, and there's a time and place for that, but if they become overly bespoke, then we kind of handicap ourselves in terms of how many people we can help. But if we go back to the first principles, which we're talking about, then you can help groups of people simultaneously, which is what you're doing with your programs. So it almost requires us to go back to the basics so that we can reach more people. And as you and I and the listeners know, there's no shortage of people who are unwell that need to go back to the simple to the basics. And again, that makes our care more affordable to people who need it as well. And you mentioned that you live in an underserviced area, but boy, are they lucky to have you because you can provide an amazing set of services and modalities for people that they can implement and become their own doctors instead of relying on somebody else to fix them all the time.

Yeah, and I also think that's where like medical, medical physicians. Physicians and medical people pairing up with health coaches is. It's just, it's just a no brainer. Like that's just the way of, the way of the world.

So you actually have a few ways that people can work with you. You've got a few different programs that you've set up. What, what advice would you give to somebody who's listening to this and, and they're thinking about, man, you know, I really would love to have a group based program. What are, what are some key takeaways that you can offer them?

So I would say, I would say follow what interests you and follow what lights you up in terms of, you know, the kind of patients you want to work with and the setting. And I think you grow it. You know, word of mouth is always the best way to grow a practice, I believe. And I would say, you know, if you want to do groups like start, start doing them. Don't, don't wait for the, you know, the perfect system. No one, no one really has a perfect system. Just start doing groups of five, six, ten people. And it's a really efficient way to, to, to teach and to be compensated too. So I think groups are really the way to go. But sometimes you have to start with getting individual people so that they know you're, you're good and you're doing a good job and you're helping them.

But you mentioned referrals, so I love if you could share what are, what are some strategies or methodologies that you've used to increase the number of referrals? Is it, does it just happen organically for you? Are you asking for referrals? Do you have a referral program or system that you're using?

I really don't. That's my next phase of what I need to be doing to reach more people is it's still like 90% word of mouth. And I think, you know, making offerings of like doing teachings and doing lectures and master classes is a really good way for people to get to know you. That you know, you know what you're talking about and that you care and that You're, You're. Yeah. That your heart's in it. So I think the masterclass piece has been something that I've added the last three years, which has been really great. And now I'm doing more in person things which are always way more the best for me for fulfilling. And so, yeah, I think, I think just getting in front of people, offering, you know, being generous with your offerings to choose, like, we all have so much knowledge. Right. Like, just share your knowledge freely and it will come back to benefit you as well.

Yeah.

Generosity. Generosity is reciprocal.

Yeah. You know, I, I think that goes a long way. Right. Just showing. Showing people your true nature, who you really are. And the extra mile is usually just an inch. So there's so many little things that we could do to help people feel seen, to help them feel heard, to help them, you know, feel like they're not just another client or another patient in your business or in your practice, but they're actually someone who deeply matters to you. So thank you for sharing that as well. I'd love to know, Penny, what's. What's on the horizon for. You mentioned, you mentioned a few things, but what, what really excites you about this coming year?

So this is my year for saying yes to everything. So I, I have. I'm. This isn't good for the environment, but I'm on an airplane the next four to six weekends and I'm actually, I'm going to go see one of my best friends in the whole world that I met over our cadaver in medical school. And we're going to go ski in the Utah mountains this weekend. And then the following weekend, I'm going to go see my daughter in Vermont and I'm going to take her around to see colleges. So that's going to be fun. And then I'm taking my other daughter to Italy. And then the end of March, I'm going to. Or the end of April, I'm going to. No, sorry. End of end of March, over Easter, I'm going to do a breath. That breath work conference with James Nestor. Sounds amazing. Yeah. And that'll be off grid for a whole week. I'm like, very excited. Very, very excited.

Oh, man. I. A lot of exciting things that you've got going on in the next few weeks, I'm the one I can certainly relate to is a breath work retreat. I know you're going to love that. So when you, when you get there, tell James I said hi.

Okay. Awesome. I can't even believe.

Yeah, it's gonna be, you're gonna have a blast. You're really gonna love it. It's a such a great time, such a great location. The food is amazing, the weather is awesome. James and his, his crew, the facilitators also do an awesome job and I know that you're gonna love the in person aspect of it as well. So it definitely, definitely one of my highlights of my life by going there, that event.

So it's because of you that I learned about it. So I'm so excited. I mean I read his book but you, you're the one who encouraged me to do it. Oh and then the one other thing is I'm planning a retreat with one of my best functional medicine physician friends for women in menopause. It's called Menopause to Luminous Longevity. And we are going to have a three day retreat for women in, in that transition. So yeah, very exciting nature based.

So exciting times. So honored and so excited to see what comes of this coming year for you. And thank you for taking time out of your schedule, spending it with me and our audience today and sharing some of your wisdom. Lots of great takeaways, really simple things that we can do from spending more time in nature, taking good care of ourselves. Right. Putting our own oxygen masks on first, keeping things simple in our practice. I mean these are, these are all such great tips. Going back to the foundation and really following our hearts with the highest level of integrity that we can and you know, being present to all the beautiful gifts that the universe has in store for us and you know, grabbing, grabbing the bull by the horns when the timing is right. So thank you Penny. Where if somebody wants to learn more about your practice, where, where should we send them?

So my website is just my name www.pennystringermd.com so Penny with an EY, that's probably the best place.

Awesome. So if they have referrals that they can send your way or if they want to join you on your upcoming retreat or check out your beautiful website, we'll be sure to include that in the show notes. And I know you promised that you'd send me over that article. We could include that in the show notes as well. Any words of wisdom that you like to impart on us before we jump.

Off, I think follow your heart and, and trust that you are in the abundance flow.

Love it. Awesome. Thank you so, so much. Have an awesome, awesome rest of your day and here's to an amazing 2024 ahead.

Thank you Sachin. Such a pleasure.