How Betrayal Can Catalyze Your Next Business Breakthrough with Dr. Debi Silber

Hello, my friends, and welcome to Perfect Practice. I am super excited for our conversation today that I'm going to be having with our dear guest, Dr. Debbie Solberg. We're going to be talking about something that may be impacting you. I almost guarantee it's impacting you. It may be impacting the people that you work with, and I can almost guarantee that it's impacting the clients that you're serving in your practice. Today we're going to have a conversation that will not only be about business, but will be about our emotional health and our integrity. And something that I know is impacting someone that you love and care about if it doesn't impact you directly. And that's something called betrayal. Betrayal is something that we are dealing with on a constant basis because it's something that likely happened to us many years ago and is currently impacting the way we operate. It might be impacting our nervous system, it might be impacting our relationships, it might be impacting the dreams and aspirations that we're reaching for. And certainly it's going to impact our self worth. So without further ado, I love to welcome somebody who I've known for many years, somebody who has blown my mind from the stage when she talks about this topic, and somebody who also has developed a very successful business following her passion and following her mission, speaking to people about betrayal and the trauma that it causes, the impact that it causes, and the breakthroughs that can come as a result of this. So thank you, Debbie. I appreciate you being here. I know how busy you are and I know how important this work is to you. So I am so honored to invite you to our community and share this with people.

Looking forward to our conversation, my friend.

All right, well, let's jump right in. You've got quite a amazing background. You've been in business for 32 years. You shared with me before we turned the recording on some amazing breakthroughs that are happening in your business at the current moment. So where I'd like to go is back to the beginning because it's never easy, right? And most businesses don't make it past the first year. You've made it 32 years. So there's certainly a formula of success that I'd like to dissect and study and share with our listeners today. So let's go back in time. Let's go back to, let's say, 32 years ago. What was the impetus that that wanted you to made you want to be an entrepreneur in the first place?

You know, I think so much of it is, is following your gut and really listening to your intuition. I had, I, I remember graduating from college, I had a double major and it was TV production, broadcast journalism. So I thought I was going in that sort of down that production track, but it wasn't rewarding or fulfilling for me. And I realized that's what I was really missing. And believe it or not, here I was on a vacation. I was on a hike one day and I'm walking around, I'm walking on this hike and I, and the trainer is just showing us the most beautiful sights and we're on this hike and I'm thinking to myself, oh my gosh, this is what she gets to do. This is, this is health. I like this. So I, I couldn't really justify 10 years worth of student loans in TV and putting it aside to just jump and go, go for health now. But that's what was really calling to me. And eventually I did, I just bailed on the whole TV thing, jumped over to health, became msrd, holistic dietitian, master's in nutrition, and then from there became a personal trainer because I had to support myself. That business took off and then I realized I was eating well, I was exercising and I was so sick. So I'm thinking to myself, how could this be? I should be the picture of health. And I was anything but. And it turned out that it was the toxic relationships, the stress, the overwhelm. And so I had surgery. And while I was studying, many people would like put photo albums together or whatever. I studied to become a whole health coach, a health expert trained to teach how your lifestyle creates health or disease. And I learned that on some level the thoughts I was thinking, the stress I was under, the relationships I had were at the root of it all. So I actually cut the ties and healed from all of it. That was the beginning of this, this new health journey. And then years later, my own traumas in betrayal led me to the PhD program and the studies and this discoveries and where I am now.

Wow. So you've got like a pretty impressive bio and you know, you founded the Post Betrayal Transformation Institute, you're a holistic psychologist, you have a health mindset and personal development, you know, aspect to what you do. You're a two time bestselling author, you've got your own podcast, you're. Which is ranked in the top 1.5% of all podcasts you bid on TEDx. You've been on Dr. Oz, like, wow, so impressive, so amazing. You're always so humble and I Can't even imagine you unwell because for as long as I've known you, you've been the picture of health. And so it tells me that obviously transformation is possible. But what was really interesting about what you said is that it was really the toxic relationships that was holding you back. And I see this over and over again. What would you say if you, we're talking to somebody, what are some of the signs that somebody is in a toxic relationship? Maybe we can start there to unpack that for people.

Yeah, you know, it's, it's when you start questioning and doubting yourself, when you're, you're just, you, you stop believing in yourself and you figure that someone else knows better than you. When you don't realize your value and your worth. And what happens is, and I see this very often, it starts with an early betrayal. And it could be intentional or even unintentional and it could be something such, it could be something as simple as this. Let's say there's a little. A 10 year old boy and he has some earth shattering news to share with mom and he runs into the kitchen and mom's on the phone. So she shushes him right there at that very moment. He could have made that mean, I don't matter. So think about it. What we feed grows and we want to look for confirming evidence to support that belief. So if that's the belief that his mom just reacted in that way, completely unintentionally hurting him. Right. And then he believes I don't matter. Think about the choices he'd make, you know, along the way, the people he would date, the work he would do because of something as simple as that, that doesn't get looked at.

Yeah. And you know, a lot of times when we think of betrayal, like with a capital B, we think it has to be something huge or big and blatantly obvious. So people might be listening like, I've never been betrayed. But it's, it's not about, it's about what our kind of body and emotion and our subconscious feels as well. Right. It's not just about what we might be thinking about logically and as adults. You might even think like, oh, like what's the big deal? Right. But to, to our little, little version of ourselves, there's a part of us that never really grows up. And it could show up in our lives. So specifically for entrepreneurs and in businesses, because a lot of people listening to this are our health practitioners or coaches. How might that show up in their business?

Yeah, I will Tell you exactly. I can share the symptoms of post betrayal syndrome, which, that was the second of the three discoveries. Happy to share that. But we see betrayal showing up in health, in work, in relationships. So for example, in relationships, I'll see it in one, one of two ways. The first is a repeat betrayal. The face has changed, but it's the same thing. And people go from boss to boss to boss, friend to friend to friend, partner to partner to partner. And they say, is it me? Yes. It is not in that it's your fault. In that it's your opportunity. There's a profound lesson waiting to be learned. You are lovable, worthy and deserving. You need better boundaries in place, whatever it is. Until and unless you get that, you're going to have opportunities in the form of people to teach you. So a repeat betrayal means it is unhealed. The second way we see it in relationships is the big wall goes up and we keep everyone at a distance. Been there, done that. No one's getting near me again. We think it's coming from a place of strength. It's not. It's coming from fear. We were so, so brokenhearted and our trust and heart was so shattered. We would rather keep everyone at bay than risk that level of vulnerability and have to feel that pain again. That's an unhealed betrayal. In work though, we'll see it. We'll see it in a few ways too. You want that razor promotion, you deserve it. But your confidence was shattered. So you don't have the confidence to ask and you may be bitter and resentful instead, or you want to be that team player, that collaborative partner, but the person you trusted the most true, proved untrustworthy. How do you trust that boss, that coworker, that partner? And in health, we see it in so many ways. You know, we see people going to the most well meaning, amazing doctors, coaches, healers, therapists to manage a stress related symptom, illness, condition, disease. And at the root of it is this unhealed betrayal.

You know, speaking of betrayal, what goes right along with that is forgiveness. And you founded National Forgiveness Day, which for everyone is September 1st. What's a way, you know, that if we're holding on to something and maybe we can think of someone that we need to forgive? I mean, they say when you're holding on to resentment towards somebody else, it's like holding a hot piece of coal in your own hand. Like you're the one that's getting burned, right? Your nervous system might be getting fried or you know, you might Just be having thoughts that you shouldn't be having instead of positive thoughts that you could be having and using, you know, your, your brain and your body for something else. Right. Instead of holding on to something that isn't serving you. So what are maybe a few ways that if we wanted to show our forgiveness to somebody, do you have some strategies for that or some, some best practices?

Yeah, you know, I do and, but I would, what I would like to say is when, when forgiveness, when you're working on forgiveness, but it's for the wrong reasons. Like you just want the pain to be over with already. You just want things to go back to the way they were, which never exists. It backfires every time. So what I would recommend is opt for move towards acceptance first. It's an easier reach than forgiveness. But just to show you the power of forgiveness. Because you're right, the withholding forgiveness is something that is only hurting us. But we feel, you know, in the betrayed community, what happens is we feel the rug has been pulled out of us. We barely have any control over our own lives because we never saw this coming. So granting or withholding forgiveness we feel is something within our control. So we're, you could see why we're hesitant just to give that back. But to tell you the power of forgiveness we have. She's in her mid-80s, someone in our community. And we did to launch because September this past, September 1st was our first national forgiveness day. And so I had this 21 day journey and she had a betrayal, 70 plus years old. This was from her family. 70 plus years. And she had digestive issues, which is completely common. 45% of everyone betrayed has a digestive issue. Crohn's, IBS, diverticulitis, you name it.

Wow.

2 and I'll read the stats after. I would love to share them with you. Two weeks into our forgiveness journey, 21 day forgiveness journey, she completely healed from a 70 plus year digestive issue. That's the power.

Isn't it fascinating that there's so many ways for us to heal And I would imagine that many people are climbing up the supplement tree or climbing up the next diet tree, or climbing up the next exercise routine tree and not finding answers. And it could be something that I don't want to say. Simple, certainly it's, it can be very challenging for people to experience these things and go through the, the process of forgiveness, but something so outside of the realm of our normal thinking.

Yeah, well, think about it. When you think of what the gut does, it absorbs, digests and processes food. Well, isn't a betrayal difficult to absorb, digest, and process know? Is it any wonder we're struggling with the gun? I'd love to share the stats though, if you want to hear them.

Absolutely.

Okay. Because that would be really awkward if you said no. Okay, so we've had, I don't know, 95,000 plus people take the post betrayal syndrome quiz. Men, women, just about every country's represented. I'd love you to pay attention to these numbers so you see just how high they are. Out of all of them, 78% constant constantly revisit their experience. 81% feel loss of personal power. 80% are hypervigilant. Think about what that does to your nervous system. 94% deal with painful triggers. Here are the most common physical symptoms. 71% have low energy. 68% have sleep issues. 63% have extreme fatigue. Your adrenals have totally tanked. 47% have weight changes. So in the beginning, maybe they can't hold food down. Later on, they're using food for comfort. 45% have digestive issues, which I mentioned. The most common mental symptoms. 78% are overwhelmed. 70% are walking around in a state of disbelief. 64% are in shock. 62% can't concentrate. So let's just stop there. You can't concentrate. You have a gut issue. You're exhausted. You still have to raise your kids. You still have to work. That's not even emotionally. Emotionally. 88% experience extreme sadness. 83% are very angry. And we bounce back and forth between those two all day long. Think about what your nervous system is doing when that's happening. 82% are hurt. 79% are stressed. Just a few more. This one killed me. 84% have an inability to trust. 67% prevent themselves from forming deep relationships because they're afraid of being hurt again. 82% find it hard to move forward. 90% want to move forward, but they don't know how.

Wow, that's. Those are some very staggering numbers. And, you know, I guess like from your experience, what are. Where. What if. If somebody doesn't find you in the work that you're doing, where are they going to alleviate these symptoms? Are they turning to medications, supplements, like inflicting pain on themselves? What are alcohol. What are these people turning to deal with these things?

Yeah, I'll tell you exactly what they're doing. And first of all, just to wrap up those statistics, those numbers are super high. They're also not necessarily from a recent betrayal. This could be from the parent who did something awful when you were a kid. This could be from the girlfriend or boyfriend who broke your heart in high school. So think of this. That person may not know care remember, they may not even be alive. And here we are today with these symptoms from something unhealed from all those years ago. The good news is you can heal from all of it, which is the third discovery, which I'd love to share. But to answer your question, what people typically do is number one, they'll go to therapy. And we have so many people coming into the the PBT institute with therapy, trauma and here's why, it could be the most well meaning therapist. But if all you're doing is unpacking and unpacking and unpacking, you will leave that appointment feeling heard. But that's it. And what happens is, yes, you feel heard. You're also retraumatizing yourself. You're also putting the stake in the ground like where it's just that much harder to, to leave that space. You're solidifying your story. You're making it who you are. So we see that all the time. So people will go to therapy and they wonder, oh my gosh, why is it that I've been in therapy five years and I'm still the same or I have repeat betrayals? It's because you're stuck in one of the most common places. We get stuck, which I'll talk about in the third, the third discovery. The second thing they do is they numb, avoid and distract. They'll take, you know, they'll use food, drugs, alcohol, work, tv, anything to numb, avoid and distract themselves from this painful place. So while it may make the day a bit easier to get through, not without a price. We have a saying within PBT and it's face it, feel it, heal it. And that's the only way you're going to move through it. You can't move through it if you're just numbing or coasting. You just can't. The third thing people do is very often they'll join that lame support group and they had their people. Now think of this. What we see so often is it's like the In It Awful club and everyone's complaining and commiserating. Now think about what happens. You start to heal. You will actually sabotage your healing because you don't want to outgrow your people, right? So when we're you, when we're numbing, when we're hanging on to our story through other people helping us doing just that, or when we're in those types of support groups. It is like crazy glue keeping you stuck in one spot, preventing you from moving through the five stages from betrayal to breakthrough.

You know, I love the analogies that you're using when you say crazy glue that. I could really visualize that. Like, you know, when we were young, we had that, that liquid glue. Right. And it was the tip of. It was like Elmer's. Yeah. And it was like all rubbery and it would be all glue.

Yep.

So I could like really visualize that people just being stuck there. And I'm sure this happens in, in, you know, all kinds of groups. Right. Not even just betrayal groups or, or support groups, but this could even happen in mentorships where people are afraid to outgrow their peers and they, they self sabotage and, you know, they, they kind of come back down. So it's, it's quite interesting what you're sharing. The. The one thing I love to know is what's the third discovery that you guys made?

Yeah, this for me, was the most exciting. And what we found was while we can stay stuck for years, decades, a lifetime, and so many people do, if we're going to fully heal, and by fully heal, I mean those symptoms of Post Betrayal syndrome that I just shared to this completely rebuilt space that was the first discovery called Post Betrayal Transformation. We're going to move through five proven, predictable stages. And what's even more exciting about that is we know what happens physically, mentally, and emotionally at every stage. And we know what it takes to move from one stage to the next. Healing is entirely predictable. And happy to share the stages if you want to hear them.

Yeah, I was just going to ask you that if you could walk us through them, that'd be awesome.

Sure. So stage one is before it happens. And if you can imagine four legs of a table, the four legs being physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual. What I saw with everybody, me too, was a heavy lean on the physical and the mental thinking and doing. We're so good at that. And kind of neglecting or ignoring the emotional and the spiritual feeling and being. Well, if the table only has two legs, it's easy for that table to topple over. And that's us. Stage two, shock trauma. D day, Discovery Day. It's the scariest by far of all of the stages. And it's the breakdown of the body, the mind, and the worldview right here. You've gotten the news. It's like someone just took a mask off and reveals to you who they've been all this time. And you ignite the stress response. You're headed for every single stress related symptom, illness, condition, disease. Your mind is in a complete and total state of chaos and overwhelm. You can't wrap your mind around what you just learned. This makes no sense. And your worldview has just been shattered. Your worldview is your mental model. The rules that govern you, that prevent chaos, trust this person, don't go there. These are the rules. And in this one earth shattering moment or series of moments, everything you've ever held to be real and true is no longer. The bottom has bottomed out on you and a new bottom hasn't been formed yet. This is traumatizing, but think about it. If the bottom were to bottom out on you, what would you do? You grab hold of anything or anyone in order to stay safe and stay alive. And that's stage three. Survival instincts emerge. This is the most practical out of all of the stages. If you can't help me get out of my way, how do I survive this? Where do I go? Who can I trust? Here's the trap though. Stage three by far is the most common place, we get stuck. And here's why. Once we figured out how to survive our experience, because it feels so much better than the shock and trauma of where we just came from, we think it's good. And because we don't know there's anywhere else to go, we don't know there's a stage four or stage five. We plant roots here, we park here. We're not supposed to, but we don't know that. And four things start to happen. The first thing is you start getting all those small self benefits, secondary gain. You get to be right. We like being right. You get your story. You don't have to do the hard work of learning to trust again. You get sympathy from everyone you tell your story to. And on some level that feels good. So you plant deeper roots now because this is where you are and you're here longer than you should be, the mind starts doing things like, you know, maybe you're not that great, maybe you deserved it, maybe this, maybe that. So you plant deeper roots. And now because these are the thoughts you're thinking, this is the energy you put out. Like energy attracts like energy. So now you start attracting people and circumstances and even relationships towards you to confirm this is where you belong. Right here is where you're going to join that group. Right here is where you're not going to trust that you can heal. So you will sabotage yourself so you don't outgrow your betrayer, it gets worse. But I'll get you out of here because it feels so bad. But we don't know there's anywhere else to go. Right here is where we start numbing, medicating, distracting, right? We start using food, drugs, alcohol, whatever. So think about it. You do it for a day, a week, a month. Now it's a habit. A year, 10 years, 20 years. And I can see someone 20 years later and say that emotional eating you're doing or that drinking, do you think that has anything to do with your betrayal? And they would look at me like I'm crazy. They would say, it happened 20 years ago. All they did was put themselves in stage three and stay here. And here's where I'm sure all of your clients and patients are coming in to see you, because here's where. Now what they're spending their energy and attention on is medicating, numbing, and suppressing from the symptoms that are showing up. Does that make sense?

Yeah, totally.

Yeah. So if you're willing. Willingness is a big word right here. If you're willing to let go of your story, the benefits you're receiving, grieve, mourn a loss, a bunch of things you need to do, you move to stage four. Stage four is finding and adjusting to a new normal. So here's where you acknowledge I can't undo what happened, but I control what I do with it. Just in that decision, you're turning down the stress response. You're not healing just yet, but at least you stop the massive damage you've been accumulating in stages two and stage three. Stage four feels like if you've ever moved, if you've ever moved to a new house, office, condo, apartment, whatever, all your stuff's not there. It's not cozy yet, but you're like, yeah, we got this. We could do this. But think about it. If you were to move, you don't take everything with you. You don't take the things that don't represent who you're ready to become. And what I saw was there's this one space moving from stage three to stage four. If your friends weren't there for you, you've outgrown them. Right here. That lame support group, you're done. That betrayer who isn't changing, you're done. When you've settled into this new space, you've made it cozy, you've made it mentally home. You move into the fifth most beautiful stage, and this is healing, rebirth and a new worldview. The Body starts to heal, self love, self care, you know, eating well, exercise. You didn't have the bandwidth that earlier. Now you do. Your mind is healing. You're making all kinds of new rules, new boundaries, and you have a new worldview based on everything you've been through and the four legs of the table. In the beginning, it was all about physical and mental. By this point, we're solidly grounded because we're focused on the emotional and the spiritual too. Those are the five stages, man.

So well thought out. And I, and I can totally see how in my life I've gone through some of those stages in different areas of my life. And yeah, it actually literally follows those steps. And for me, a big shift in my life took place when I physically moved from Cincinnati to Toronto. Because I know in our interview we had many years ago, I was working for a company that owed me a bunch of money and never paid me. And it changed my worldview because I'm like, am I not worth it? Do I deserve this in some way? Like, what's going on over here? And moving was a huge catalyst in really shifting my business and my self view because it kind of gave me a new point to start from. And I can only imagine how many people that I've coached over the years have faced struggles and challenges that could probably be traced back to betrayal. Not charging what they're worth, not going in for and making the offer. Right. Maybe not having the courage to put themselves out there, or not being willing to commit in longer term relationships with their clients. Right. And, and so it's, to me, it's, it's just like, as, as you're speaking, I'm, I'm going through, I'm having this like, process going on inside my head where I'm tracing back like, man, I wonder some of the things I've said to my son if those are going to show up in some ways. Betrayal, I'm thinking of like, ways I've been betrayed and the stages that I've gone through. And I'm thinking of some of my clients that, you know, just for whatever reason they, they can't get there, take that next step. And I'm wondering how much betrayal is playing a role in that. So I have a, I have a question because I feel like you're speaking directly to me as you're sharing these things. So this will be selfish, but I think it'll, I think it's not selfish. I think it'll help everyone who's listening to this, who might be thinking the Same thing. So as soon as my son comes home, he might even be home right now, but as soon as I see him, I want to have a conversation with him. So I'd love for you to perhaps guide me through what that conversation might look like or how I might break the ice with him to have really a serious and meaningful conversation with a 13 year old and just ask him if there has been a time where I have maybe shushed him and maybe not in that exact format, but if I've made him feel less than what he's worth or made him feel like he was unheard or unseen. And I can actually think of a time this, this past weekend when I was in Saint Kitts and my son was really struggling on the paddle board because it was super windy and the water was choppy and he got really upset and, you know, he kind of lashed out at me even though it wasn't my fault. But then I lashed back at him. Right. And, and I, and I could see how I could have probably responded with a little bit more empathy for him in that moment. So I'm thinking, like, what would be helpful for me and perhaps our listeners is how we initiate that conversation, if not just if we feel betrayed. Right. I think that's a whole different process. But if we feel like we've potentially betrayed somebody else and we want to regain their trust and don't want them to carry that burden into adulthood, let's say.

Sure, sure. Well, I have four kids. They're in, in their 20s now, but when my betrayal happened, they were in their teens and it was the biggest wake up call for all of us. They are, we are so, all of us so close now. It's like we've all been through war together. But I remember when, you know, when this all happened. Well, first of all, I remember saying, listen, I'm not going to be my best. I love you with every fiber of my being, but let me know how I'm falling short because I'm giving you absolutely the best I can at this time. And they were Team Mom. I mean, it was, they were totally, they were totally with me. But I've just found in all of this, nothing beats honesty ever. And there's just even something as simple as, I don't know what the heck to say to you, but I want to make sure I don't screw you up. So let me know if there's anything I'm saying that makes you feel upset or sad or angry, because my intention is only to love you and teach you is never to hurt you. But that doesn't mean I get the words right. So let's have a. Let's have a symbol or a saying or something where I know what my intentions are, but it may not be received that way. So let's. Let's have an honest communication about when I fall short in those ways. I just think when in doubt, honesty wins every single time.

Yeah, I think everyone should play that back and listen to that and, you know, they don't have to say it word for word. Say it in a way that feels right and comfortable for them. Look your kids or your spouse or your team members in the eye. Whatever is the case, look yourself perhaps in the eye. Sometimes there might even be self betrayal. I'd love to unpack that with you as well. But I think that's a really powerful statement and conversation starter that can truly transform lives and relationships. So thank you for sharing that.

You know, I would even add to it. We have a program for the betrayer now. You can imagine it's. It's not just the betrayer who's sort of onto the next. This is the person who realizes they just shattered the heart and trust of the very person that loves them the most. They love the most. And. And I. And I work with them also, in addition to our coaches and. And I even recommend to them. It's not supposed to flow out of you in this beautiful way that actually is not a way to build trust. Your honesty is supposed to be awkward. You are supposed to be tripping over your words because that's showing that person you're not that smooth at this because it's unfamiliar and it's okay. You're learning something new because that person is worth it. So instead of trying to get the words right, just tap into your heart. And what I see so often is conversations go wrong when we go from our head trying to reach someone else's head or we go from our head trying to reach their heart. The only conversation that ever lands when it comes to betrayal or really getting through to someone is someone's heart to someone else's heart, period.

I'm being really touched and moved by this conversation. So thank you for. For doing this, doing the work that you do and. And sharing it with the world. Tell me a little bit more. Maybe we'll switch gears just a little bit here to help me understand your. Your business journey. So I'd love to maybe if you could share with us, like, some of the inflection points in your business, maybe some of the challenges You've had to overcome perhaps some of the trials and tribulations. Well, I'd love to unpack some of those and also learn about who are some of the influences in your life that have made a positive impact.

That's such a great, such a great question. So I would say I've. I've always been guided by intuition and I've been guided by where my life was taking me at the time. So early on when here I had four kids and six dogs and this thriving business, it was really all about holding it together. Now here's the downside of this because there are so many people in that stage right now. Be careful what feeds you. Because I was getting so much acknowledgement and recognition for having it all together. Oh my gosh. How do you, how are you doing it all? How do you make that all work? That I was sacrificing my sleep, cutting corners, which we, we never cut corners when it comes to anybody else. We cut them with ourselves. And that, that catches up quickly. So lesson learned right there. That was one of the first lessons. And that's what had me leave sort of health in that way to, to move towards something that involves what stress is doing and what your lifestyle is creating as well. From there here I was realizing that these toxic relationships were really at the root of it. And at the time, it was my family, my own family. Now I'm one of the most family oriented people I know. I have a lot of kids, I have a big family, I love family. But it was totally toxic. And when I cut those ties, I'll never forget the founder of the program I was in was my mentor at the time. And she said, Debbie, when you did that, it's like you traded an anchor for a pair of wings. And I healed from everything. So I remember writing my first book, I think it was in 2007, and I wrote it in two and a half weeks. It just flew out of me. I wanted every mom to know the secret of. I felt like I had the secret to everything. Health, mindset, lifestyle, all of it. And then I was doing, you know, and I was doing that, and then I became an fdn. And I was doing that for a while because stress was. Was just at the root of it. And then when it was my own betrayal, really from my. Again from my family and then from my husband, I was so used to going to books to. To learn my way out of something or learn something, and a book wasn't going to do it this time. So I just, I. I Felt like I had to enroll in this whole PhD program in transpersonal psychology. And then I did that study on betrayal. And honestly, it was just to get myself out of this jam. I needed to understand, you know, how the mind works and why we do these things and how I could heal. And when those discoveries showed up, and you may have even been on one of these calls, I was talking all about the discoveries, but I was too uncomfortable sharing my own story. And we. And we were on a zoom call, and any good coach has a coach, right? So we were on a zoom call, and we're going around, what's new with you? What's new with you? What's new with you? And so it was my turn, and I start talking about the study. Oh, the study proved this. And. And then our mentor at the time looks at me, points his finger, and he says, stop hiding behind your effing study already. And I was like, oh, no, he's right. He's right. And I remember sitting my kids down and sitting my husband down, because now, at this point, we were working on reconciliation. He lost all of us, and now we were rebuilding, but from a very different place. And I said, I'm going to write this book, and the story's in there. And I thought the kids would be like, oh, come on, Mom. You know, and they're like, you know what, Mom? Go, you. And then with my husband, I was like, this is. This is when you see who someone really is, because I thought for sure he'd be humiliated and embarrassed, and he just got really emotional, and he said, you know, you're going to help so many people. So, you know, it was in the book, and it was a slow evolution. The first TEDx talk I did. I did, too. The first one, Stop sabotaging yourself. That was six weeks after my betrayal. If you watch it, you could, you hear me hint at it, But I wasn't ready to talk about it. And actually, it was the second one. Do you have post betrayal syndrome? Where I talked about it for one of the first times, and it's. It's just changed my life ever since.

Wow. Thank you for sharing. You know, before we started recording our conversation, you were telling me about how your business is evolving and you're moving into a new space. So I'd love for you to talk about that and share with us where the institute's vision is. Is headed and, you know, where you see yourself in the next few years.

Yeah. So we're. So. We've created something that truly doesn't exist. Because really, people come into the PBT Institute and they just move through the five stages. So we have a way of knowing what stage they're in. It's mostly stages two or stage three. And so they go, everything is numbered according to what stage you see certain coaches, according to what stage you're in. You go to certain classes according to what stage you're. And you do with certain programs according to what stage you're. And it's just all numbered and you just predictably move through. And then with that, we also have two different certification programs. One to be a certified PBT coach or practitioner, the other to be a certified support group host. Because the intention is to get this the right type of support to lift and inspire, you know, wherever you are on the planet. So the support group, Support groups are popping up all over the world. The, the Institute is, we're growing in that we're certifying more coaches, having more members. And then what I realized not long ago is we have a lot of clients coming in from. They're working in these corporations and they don't feel safe and they don't trust and they're not honest with their managers or bosses, and they don't feel, they feel they can lose their job at any moment. And a lot of what they're feeling has to do with an unhealed betrayal from years ago. So this, the. I shared the symptoms of post betrayal syndrome. They're going to work every day with those symptoms, or they don't trust, or they're, you know, the, the, the turnover, the absenteeism, all of that. So we're, we're going into corporate too, with just the idea of your people are struggling not having anything to do with you, but it's affecting, greatly affecting your workspace, and we can help you with that.

You know, one of the things that I'm remarking as you're speaking is how elegant of a speaker you are. And of course, you've been on many stages and done a couple TED talks. I'd love for you to share some of the other gifts that you feel you have that have helped you propel your business, aside from the speaking. And maybe you can tell us, did you have any formal training in speaking? You know, I'd love to know more about that. But what are some of the other skills that you would advise practitioners to acquire? Aside from, you know, being obviously amazing clinicians, recognizing the signs of betrayal, what are some other capabilities that they should acquire along the way to help them?

Well, thank you for that. I Love speaking, and I don't do nearly enough of it. And that's something I'm getting back to as well. What probably changed my speaking the most? In the very beginning, I had this idea of. I had this information I need to impart on the audience. And then I realized nobody cares about that. They just don't. If you were to go to an amazing restaurant, if you were to read a great book, you would just want to share it, right? With whoever's going to listen because you experience something so great that you want someone else to experience that too. When I change my speaking to have that in the back of my mind, I just happen to know this stuff that I just can't wait to share with the next person. It changed all of it. All of it. And my speaking just became something that I. I just love. And the truth is, I've spoken in pretty big audiences and smaller audiences as well. And with the bigger ones, you can only see the people in the. In the. In the front, the first few rows anyway. So one of my favorite parts is, let's say that book signing at the end or just getting to. Just getting to hug people at the end.

And.

And it's something that. That I just love doing because it's my. A lot of times the talks are a little bit shocking because I want to. I want to get people out of their kind of numbness. We don't change when we're in that numb state. We need to be. Sometimes we need to be a little prodded. So I don't. I don't mind doing that. So. But I would say to anybody, really, when it comes to sharing your message, share it in a way that feels really good for you. If. If blogging feels natural and comfortable, do that. If podcasting feels great, do that. If being on stage is. The world needs what you have in the very specific way you have it, but we get all tripped up in, well, that person's doing this and that person's doing that, and so then I should. And listen, I was guilty of this, too. I was trying everything and realized, wait a second. When I'm doing what I do best, it's effortless and I love it. Why not just do more of that?

Yeah, and I would think you would agree with this is we do best what we feel best about. And so it's gotta make us feel good when we're doing it so that we're. We wake up craving to do it more. You know, I had a. I had a conversation with one of my coaches earlier and we were just kind of mapping out what 2024 looks like. And he asked me kind of similar to this, in the vein of this conversation, he's like, what do you love doing the most? And I said, I love being on a stage, probably just like you, and really creating transformation for people by changing their worldview, changing their paradigm, changing the way they look at things so that I leave them better than I found them, but also thinking in a different way, asking new questions, creating new possibilities. And he's like, we need to do more of that. And sometimes I'll find myself, you know, building a website for somebody or a landing page or helping them craft their lead magnet, which I also enjoyed doing that as well. But I realized the thing I love doing the most and the thing I think impacts people the most, brings me the butterflies, but also the most joy is getting in front of people and truly having that transformational conversation with them. So just like you, I. I'm. I'm right there with you.

It's it. And then when you even narrow it down even further, like, I realized, you know, we know the hero's journey, right? Here's a hero walking along, just going about their business. And then there's the. The trauma, right? The big crash. And then there's this part where they start to do this rise. It's so interesting because I really don't have much to say to this person because they don't realize there's a problem yet when they have that crash. My coaches are actually so much better at that than me. I'm okay with it, but that's where they're brilliant. My zone of genius is when that person starts to realize their worth, their value, the trauma starts to subside and they realize, okay, what can I do with this? That possibility when someone. There's a look in their eyes when they realize, wait a second, I'm going to use this. This trauma to my advantage. And that's trauma well served. That is just what absolutely lights me up. Because that's where you'll see new levels of health, new relationships, new passion projects, new businesses, and. And the possibilities are endless. And it's this part right there, that.

Climb, you know, the visual that's coming up for me. Maybe you use this analogy before, but it's like a fire, right? So a fire can burn the house down or it can heat it up, right? It's just containing it and using that. That fuel correctly can make all the difference in the world. So I love. I love that you share that, and I love that you recognize that gift. It where other people, their zone of genius is perhaps getting people on the down, downward swing, and yours is getting people on the upward swing so that you can do your magic and take them to a whole new level.

Yeah, yeah, it's. That's why it takes a village.

Yeah, it sure does. So as I'm. As I'm hearing you speak, I'm also hearing that, you know, you offer coaching for people to become certified in this process. And so who's a good candidate to become a coach through your institute?

Yeah, we have two tracks. One is for coaches and healers. The others, the other is for doctors, therapists, counselors, psychologists, psychiatrists. It's the same training because they're not trained in the five stages, from stages from betrayal to breakthrough. It's just a difference in the title. And if they work within the community, I pay practitioners a bit more than coaches. Coaches. But it's really for that person who. They're a coach, a lifestyle coach, a health coach, a mindset coach, a business coach. But they've either. They've been betrayed. Typically that's those, you know, those people make the best coaches and they just really want to serve this niche. And so we, you know, or even think about it, like I. How I said, 45 people of every 45% of everyone betrayed has a gut issue. So let's say a digestive doctor would be a perfect candidate because as wonderful as their protocol may be, how much better and how much more effective would it be if they dealt with the root cause, which was the betrayal as well? So it's really for somebody who has an. Either their own personal thing or their clients or patients have betrayal as a root cause, which is so often the case. And we just want to get the five stages into as many hands as possible.

Amazing. And we'll share a link for those interested in learning more how they could pursue this and add this on as a modality. But for those that don't, Debbie, where can they. Is there a place that they can refer their clients to, to the. To work with your coaches?

Yeah, I mean, everything is at the PBT Institute, as in Post Betrayal Transformation Commission. Thepbtinstitute.com okay.

And I'm assuming you can work with people remotely, across borders, things like that.

We have people all over the world. Our coaches are from all over the world. We just, We. We have a recent coach from Dubai, one who's starting within the next few weeks from Kenya and Canada, the US all over. And our members are from all over the world.

Amazing. So if you had one message to share with the world and you had a chance to share it right now, what would that message be as it relates to betrayal?

I would say this. Even though it happened to you, it's not about you say that to yourself a million times until you believe it, because that's absolutely true. And I didn't do anything anyone else couldn't do. There's a roadmap for it. So healing has truly become a choice as far as business goes. Follow your. Follow your gut. If you're. If you feel called to do something, it's because you're supposed to. And do it boldly and proudly. And don't give up. Ever.

Yeah. And for the 45% of you whose guts aren't working, you might need to work on the betrayal part of the equation and figure out what's holding you back, because it could very well be something like that. And this has been so enlightening. Debbie, I. I really enjoyed our conversation today. I'm walking away feeling renewed and. And looking at my relationships through a whole new lens, looking at my business through a whole new lens. And I can see why. You've been successfully in business for 32 years, and I only see an upward trajectory for the work that you're doing. So thank you for being such a source of inspiration for me. And I'm sure anyone who's listening to this, leave us some comments below if you're watching this on YouTube and share how much this conversation has inspired you. And I'd love to hear what breakthroughs you have as a result of listening to this conversation. And we'll share the links as I mentioned in the show notes, so check them out where you can learn more about how to find a coach to support you, but also become a coach if you're interested, and add this as a modality into your practice. So, once again, thank you, Debbie. Here's to an amazing year ahead. Lots of love and much gratitude in anticipation of your growth and contribution to humanity. Here's. Here's to you.

Thank you so much. You too.