Mastering Sleep: How to Beat Insomnia with Devin Burke

Foreign. And welcome to another great episode of Perfect Practice. Today we have a very special guest, somebody who's actually become a dear friend of mine over the last few months, Devin Burke. He's the founder of the Sleep Science Academy. He's been rated one of the top coaches in America, and He's also a TEDx speaker. And I really, really know you're going to love this conversation. It's going to help you become more aware on how to improve and optimize sleep. But we're also going to talk about the spectrum of sleep disorders because, you know, in our practice, people are coming to us, let's say, for metabolic health and wellness, and secondary to that, we help them improve their sleep. With Devin, people are coming to him primarily for sleep issues, and doctors and practitioners are referring clients to him when they can't seem to crack the code. So think of your clients who have a hard time falling asleep. Think of your clients who have a hard time staying asleep. Think of your clients who are just ready to pull their hair out or really frustrated with their sleep. People who are sedating themselves with alcohol or medications. I want you to, you know, bring those people into this conversation as we discuss this topic. And then we'll also discuss the neurotic folks like myself who are trying to go from like a 88 score on their Oura ring to trying to crack that. That hundred. I've only hit it once. I have hit it once. But, you know, we're going to talk about that a little bit, but we're going to mainly focus on, you know, major sleep disorders. And again, you're in for an awesome treat. So, Devin, thank you for being here today. Thanks for taking time out of your. Your busy schedule. You and I had a chance to chat a little bit before the conversation started recording, and I know you've had a busy day. I appreciate you sharing that. You were doing some breath work and that helped kind of get you re centered and refocused. So thanks for continuing to do the work that you do, and I'm excited for our conversation today.

I'm grateful to be here and honored and excited to dive into this conversation on sleep because it's an important one and a lot of people are needing this information. So I'm excited to share it and to be here with you.

Thank you. So you're obviously quite young, and so I'm very curious as to what got you into the world of sleep, because I think sleep is sexy, but it's one of those things, like in the performance world, it's unfortunately, like, the last thing a lot of people think of right in the health space is the last thing we always think of, like mitochondria and detox and exercise and food and nutrition. And for whatever reason, sleep kind of gets, you know, stacked on the bottom of the pile. And I think you and I both know how important it is. And so for us, it's like, for you, certainly, you know, top three, for me certainly top three health habits. But what got you into helping people sleep better?

Yeah, so it was about seven years ago. I was doing high performance health and life coaching primarily for CEOs, people that ran companies, very busy people. A lot of them had sleep issues. And so up until that point, I had studied a lot of different things. Nutrition, mind body techniques, a lot of different psychologies just to really help people with their performance, with their energy. And one particular person that I was working with was really, really struggling with sleep. And he was like, man, listen, I've been on sleeping medic. I don't want to be on them. What do you know about sleep? And at that point, honestly, I. I overlooked it because I'm an amazing sleeper. I have the gift of, like, we were sharing before the call. Like, we both have the gift of just being able to sleep. So I never thought about it. And I was kind of conditioned by what society views sleep as. You know, it's a waste of time. It's a, you know, something that lazy people do. You know, you snooze, you lose, you hear all these things. And I actually, I actually felt guilty about how well I like sleeping. I'd be like, oh, no, I need to get up at 5am so this particular person, you know, I saw the pain that he was struggling with. I'm like, let me, let me look into this. And so first I started to look into what was available for people. And the first thing obviously was sleeping medication, which, if you really dive into what sleeping medication is, the ramifications of taking these medications long term, it's pretty horrifying. That's, you know, they're band aids. There's a time and a place for them. But so then I said, okay, well, that's obviously not the. The answer. And I continued to kind of go down the rabbit hole. And I found something called cbti, which is cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia. So I started to look into that, and I was like, okay, a lot of this makes sense, but some of it didn't make sense to me based off of things that I had studied in the Past. So I started to, again, dive into other different areas of sleep, sleep science. I just started to test stuff with this person. He started to get some results, and I was like, all right, well, something's working. So then I started to test more of what was working with this person, with some of my other clients, started to get results. And then I was like, okay, well, I think I have something here. If I'm able to get results for more than one person with some of these techniques and mindsets and strategies and behaviors, then I think I might have something. That was about seven years ago. And that's when I really formulated a system to really help people go from two to three hours of sleep, on sleeping medication, trying all the things, really struggling to, in a short amount of time, being able to restore their natural ability to sleep. And so that was a journey. And there's a lot of testing personally as well as with clients. And I'm so grateful for all the people that I got to work with that were willing and open to try some of these techniques and tools. But at this point, we've helped over 1500 adults across the United States that have the worst of the worst sleep issues with our system. And I'm really proud about that because it's, you know, it's very, very painful when. When you're not sleeping. I mean, it affects every single aspect of our life. And people really are pretty desperate when they're not sleeping and pretty lost.

Yeah, it's, you know, you can go. I've. I've heard you say this, and when I heard you say this, I was like, wow, this is, like, very familiar in. In terms of what I share as well, which is you can go, you know, weeks without eating, you can go days without drinking any water, but you can't go very long without sleeping. I think if you're sleep deprived just one to two nights, you're a threat to yourself and others around you. So it's one of those things that I think people who are good sleepers, like yourself and myself, probably take for granted, and we may not understand fully the pain of not being able to sleep at night, the effect that it has on your brain, your immune system, your energy levels, like just your mood, your cognition. I mean, it could be quite catastrophic. And in your TED Talk, you rightfully, you know, shared that. Jeff Bezos says that sleep is, like, the number one thing that he focuses on because it just makes you sharper in so many areas. So one thing you said that caught my attention is you've helped 1500 adults. Which kind of sparked the question in me, do sleep challenges start when we're children or does it. Is this something that progressively starts showing up as we get older? As someone who's never had quote, unquote, sleep issues, I'm curious as to where you feel like it's rooted in and where the problem begins.

Yeah. So I like to, just to lay.

It out like this.

There's usually an event that happens. That event can happen as a young child, it could happen as an adult. So there's usually an event that happens. And that event could be something stressful. It could be. Usually it is something stressful. A move, a divorce, a health crisis. It could be some type of trauma with a big T or a little T. So there's an event that happens, and then there's all these patterns that develop after that event. So an event happens that leads someone to have a challenge with their sleep, either falling asleep or staying asleep. And then what happens is people get in these patterns of trying to fix it, solve it, address it. And within those patterns, that's where they get stuck. And one of the big things that people need to understand is sleep is not something that you can force or control. And that's one of the things that when people are not sleeping well, immediately what they do is they look to hold on to something, to make sleep happen, to force it to happen. And it's that very pattern that gets people in. In a longer pattern of not being able to sleep because there's all this pressure, there's all this expectation, there's all this controlling or manipulating to. To have sleep happen.

Can you, can you share a few examples of what those things might be?

Yeah, so. So one of the things that people, again, people that have sleep issues, either falling asleep or staying asleep for months, weeks, or years, people, what they'll try to do is they'll try to solve it through sleep hygiene. So sleep hygiene is amazing for people that are already sleeping pretty well, that want to sleep better. But for someone that's really struggling with their sleep, they become overly hygienic and they start to do things so that they sleep. So for instance, they start to develop beliefs where I need to take a hot shower and stretch and do all these things or I won't sleep. I need to put my blue light blocking glasses on and I need to, you know, read a book and I need to have completely cold, dark room. I need to have all these conditions be essentially perfect or I'm not going to sleep. And what that does is it creates so much pressure, so much pressure and puts sleep on a pedestal. And when sleep's on a pedestal, creates more, even more pressure. And it becomes tricky because sleep deserves to be on a pedestal. But then that pressure creates this anxiety about sleep, anxiety about what the next day is going to feel like, or how you're going to perform or how you're going to look as a result of continuing to not sleep. And then it almost becomes like a. It becomes like an anxiety around sleep itself. And I've seen this literally for so many people, so many people. It just, it's this very pattern that keeps the body releasing adrenaline and cortisol, all of these hormones at the wrong time that then either pull people out of sleep and make it difficult for them to fall back asleep, or they can't initiate sleep to begin with because they're that worked up.

So it's almost like it reminds me of the term orthorexia, perhaps. Is there, is there a term? An orthorexia, from my understanding, is people who are obsessed with what they eat.

Yes.

And so is there an equivalent term for people who are obsessed about their sleep?

You know, I believe there is. I don't want to misspeak here. I think it's orthosomic. But that could be. I might have just made that word up. We'll have to fact check that. But there is a word, and people do get to this place where it's almost like they're starving person looking for food, and that food is sleep. And they're trying everything under the sun to sleep. And in that trying again, there's this forcing, this controlling, this manipulation, this expectation that then has the body respond in such a way where sleep doesn't happen.

Yeah, I just looked it up. It's orthosomnia.

So, okay, there we go.

And the medical. It's a medical term for unhealthy obsession with getting perfect sleep. So I might, I might have that.

I might have it too. I might have it too, to be honest. So, yeah, and so this is, this is one of the. So there's the event and then there's all the sort of the things that people try to do to then fix their sleep. And sleep is a result, it's not the problem. So like I view, if you're having challenges with your sleep, that's a symptom. So it's like, well, what's going on that has the most natural thing in the world not happening? What's going on in your psychology? What's going on in what you're doing and not doing, there's something there. And if you're not sleeping or not sleeping the way that you want to sleep, all it means is there's something to learn and there's some place to look. And where that looking takes place is actually in your life and in your day and in your relationship to sleep itself. And so this is where the work really begins, is to start to unpack and identify, well, what's going on in how I'm relating to myself, others to sleep in what I'm doing and not doing. That has this most. The most natural thing in the world, the world we were born to sleep. Not happening. It's such a strange thing.

You know, sleep is a very fascinating topic, especially for. For new parents. And I feel like there's. There's a big shift that takes place in just the way you sleep. It's just different. I don't know how to describe it. After you have children and you know, the parents become so obsessed with is the child sleeping? Right. That's one of the first questions that gets asked is how's the baby sleeping? And then there's different methodologies to help the baby get to sleep. I'm curious from your experience, if there's any good advice you can give to young parents about setting up the proper sleep hygiene or protocols or methodology for young children?

Yeah, so there are people that literally specialize just in children's sleep, like baby sleep coaches and consultants. There's a ton of them out there. I am not one of them.

Okay.

Honestly. So I don't have children and I know nothing about baby sleep. So I am not the guy to. To guide someone with their child. And I know. But what I do know about. There's a lot. There are very different methodologies for what somebody would do or not do. And depending on the expert and the. The baby sleep consultant you speak to, they can be completely opposite. You know, the cry it out method, there's. There's all different types of philosophies and methods on this. And, you know, I think they all can work. It just depends on, hey, which. Which approach really resonates with you as a parent. Because some of them are a little bit more aggressive.

Yeah, I know we. There was. Not to get too sidetracked here, but we use the. We. We learned about the cry it out method, and I think we did it for like a day. And then it just intuitively didn't feel quite right to us. So I co. We co. Slept with our son Devin for Many, many years, and almost until he was 10, he enjoyed, like me sleeping with him or at least putting him to sleep and laying in the bed with him. So he, he found a lot of comfort in that. And he probably not be happy with me if I, if I share that with you, but just, it just is what it is and I enjoyed it. I, I found it very restorative for myself. And, you know, so did he. And so it's quite interesting how, how children affect our sleep. But, you know, we'll, we'll. That'll be for maybe a different conversation. But. So thank you for, thank you for offering whatever guidance you could there. I think it's, it's something, you know, some, some people who might be listening to might be wondering, like children and sleep, how does that affect us? And it's, it's always fascinating topic to me, for sure.

And it's, it's. It's one of the. I will say this, I know this. It is one of the few times in life. There's really two times in life where most people struggle with their sleep. And one of those times is as a young parent because your child isn't sleeping and you're trying to figure it out. And, you know, so that is a difficult time for, for, you know, for, for parents and for sleep. And then the other time is, is really most women, about 60% of women, I would say maybe even more struggle with sleep during menopause, you know, during that metamorphosis time. And those are two really kind of tricky times for sleep for, for people. And there, I mean, there's a lot, there's a lot to be said about both of those sort of transitionary times. But one of the things that I'll just kind of note here is both of those pass. And it might be, you know, no matter what strategy or what tools you're using, it's important to connect with. This is just a transition and it's going to pass. Because sometimes what can happen is people kind of create these patterns and then it continues on and their child is now sleeping, but they're not, or they get through menopause and, you know, things are hormonally balanced and stabilized, but they're still not sleeping. And it's because there's other things going on below the surface.

So, you know, we, we've talked about why we have a hard time sleeping. We talked about a few misconceptions, but I just want you to fully unpack that. So, you know, sleep is a result, as you said, it's a result of a variety of different factors. What are some of the other misconceptions around sleep?

Yeah, one of the big, I would say misconceptions is people that are not sleeping well, they, they spend too much time in bed. And so logically it makes sense. If you're not sleeping well, it's like, okay, well I need to spend more time in bed. Logically that makes complete sense. And it's actually the complete opposite of what's necessary and needed. Because what you're doing is you're anchoring your bed with a place of wakefulness or frustration or a racing mind. And again, it's one of these things like we anchor, we have strong anchors to places and spaces. And so if you're somebody that has a challenge either falling or staying asleep, one of the best things you possibly could do is remove yourself from the bed and bedroom when you feel, I'm going to say the word activated. So you could use the word anxious, you could use the word excited, you could use the word. You know, there's a lot of emotions and feelings that it might not even be like a negative thing. Like maybe you're so jazzed up because you're excited about life and all these things, but really the bed in the bedroom is a sacred space where only sleep and making love to your bed partner. That's all. And if we're anchoring being awake or doing other things in the bed and bedroom, it really puts a. It really makes it difficult to improve sleep, sleep quantity and also then quality.

So, so what would, would this be somebody who has a hard time? Like would you suggest somebody wait until they're tired to then get into bed? Or if they're waking up in the middle of the night, would they get out of their bed at that point? And like, I'll give you an example. I have a friend of mine who wakes up at 3 and he just can't go back to sleep. So he just gets up and starts doing work. And then he'll find an hour like around, like between, you know, 6:30 and 7:30 to sneak in a nap in the morning and then start his day. So is that what you would suggest to him to do or like maybe, maybe unpack that for me more?

Yeah, I would suggest that if he wakes up at 3am not number one, not to look at his phone or clock, like not know what time it is. And then, and then if after about 20, 30 minutes sleep is not happening and he notices that his mind's racing or that he's awake to go to a place and have a plan. And a place would be somewhere comfortable that's low lit, that doesn't have a lot of, you know, technology or light, and do something that's relaxing. So maybe his work's relaxing, maybe it's not. But do something that's just relaxing, not so that you get back to sleep. Just do it because it feels good. And then once you get sleepy, then go back in bed. Only then, only when you're sleepy do you then go back into your bed and bedroom. And we had a. We had a guy satchin his. His insomnia was so bad, the only place he could sleep was in his car in the middle of the night with his wife driving him around. And so what we did with this particular person is we invited him to go from sleeping in his car with what an amazing wife, right? To drive your husband around the middle night to a chair in his living room. So we got him out of the car to a chair. And then once he built the confidence that, okay, I can sleep in this chair, then we put the chair in the bedroom. And then from the chair in the bedroom, we took him to his bed. And before that, I mean, this, you know, he was again, like, the only way he would be able to get any sleep was literally his wife driving around in a car. So it's really, it's important to. To just kind of note here, like the mental anchoring to spaces and places and emotions and feeling. Most times we're not even conscious or aware of sort of the state change or what gets anchored to a place. And it plays a huge role when we're talking about sleep. The bed in the bedroom, because that is the place, the bed and bedroom, it's a sacred space. It's a place of relaxation. It's a place of letting go, of surrender, of, you know, and for most people, it's actually not the opposite. It's a place of struggle. It's a place of frustration. It's a place of, you know, just negativity really. And so reconditioning, that is a really important aspect to restore your natural ability to sleep.

Okay, tell me about sleeping with a partner versus sleeping in separate beds or rooms.

Yeah, so this is a, this is, I think, very interesting question. So some people, I think it's best that they sleep apart. And there's nothing wrong with that. I think there's a lot of social conditioning to believe that, you know, it's. You should be in bed with your significant other or is there something wrong as long as it's not getting in the way of intimacy, then it's, you know, just. There's. I. I see nothing wrong with it. I actually think it can improve both people's sleep, but only if it's not getting in the way of intimacy. And there's a lot of places to be intimate outside of the bedroom, but the bedroom usually is that place where most people, you know, have that. That deeper connection. So. Yeah, but it. It can be really challenging. Like, in our conversation, we were talking about bed. One bed partner may be snoring, which keeps the other bed partner up. Maybe one bed partner. They want the room to be a little bit warmer or cooler. Maybe one bed partner is a fitful sleeper, and it kind of wakes the other bed partner up. So I think it's all. There's a lot of conditions as far as, like, what we would do. But if your bed partner is keeping you up or if there's something there that's keeping your body from sleeping because of how your partner's sleeping, it's like, either encourage that person to get support or. Yeah. Have a conversation about it and then sleep in a different room or get two different beds. You know, that can also be an option.

Yeah. My wife and I sleep in the same bedroom, but we have adjustable bases to our beds because we like to sleep at different angles. And I found that to be quite. Quite effective. We still share the same covers. So I think the next evolution in our sleeping journey is to have separate covers so that we're not pulling on the covers from each other.

Well, it's really common in European countries to have, you know, two twins together and then two. Two different sets of sheets and blankets. But it's kind of. It's, like, kind of taboo in the United States or maybe Canada as well. But in a lot of European countries, that's, like, the norm.

Yeah, I bet it's aesthetic more than anything else here. Right. You can't have, like, a line in the middle of the bed. It's gotta be like, one big comforter.

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And it can be challenging. I mean, like, there's something called sleep envy where people actually, you know, if one of the bed partners is an amazing sleeper and the other one is not, it actually can become a thing where this person literally is, like, envious, and it creates a lot of frustration. Like, why? Why? I don't understand. Like, why can my bed partner just lay down and sleep? And I'm here struggling, and I'm. I feel like I'm doing all the right things, even more so than this person. I did a whole video on, on my YouTube channel on this because I, I hear it so often. People in their language is saying like, yeah, it's like, it's really frustrating. It's really. I, like, I have this envy and, and it's really not, it's not useful. Right. Coming from that place, it's like, okay, well there's something there to kind of look at and work through.

So help me understand if these are misconceptions or if they're actually true. So I used to, when I grew up, I used to say I'm not a morning person. And I'm just curious, is there any truth to that? Or like, because now, now I feel like I am a morning person because I improve my sleep quality and emphasis on sleep and consistency. But is that actually a thing that some people just aren't morning people or is it sleep quality that can impact that?

I think that it's both. So I think that there for sure there's, you know, we, we each kind of have our unique chronotype or chronobiology. There's like evening type people or morning type people, or sometimes there's like in between type people. And I think it also has to do with the quality of sleep and it also has to do with what stage of sleep you wake up out of. I don't know if you've ever had this experience Satchin, but being really consistent with your sleep schedule and then having to change that sleep schedule and get up a lot earlier than what you know, and you're waking up in a different stage of sleep, and sometimes you might even feel better, more alert, more present, more energized than if you were waking up at your normal time. Or it might be the opposite. You wake in, you wake up in a different stage of sleep and you feel like, so groggy, so foggy, and you might have had a good quality night of sleep, but that stage of sleep that you came out of was not your normal stage of sleep. And it affects how you physiologically feel. Have you, have you ever had that experience?

Yeah, I know what you're talking about. And you can. It's almost like people say I woke up on the wrong side of the bed. But it's probably what they're trying to say is I woke up in the wrong stage of my sleep 100% because like, you'll wake up and you're just like, I'm ready to go. And then some days you'll wake up and it's the right time for you to wake up, but you just feel like, man, I wish, I wish I had like 10 more minutes or I feel like, I feel like I didn't even sleep. Like what's going on here? And it's, it's probably exactly that is there are other devices that can determine what stage of sleep you're in and wake you up in the right stage.

So there's actually some really cool technology that I, that is, they're working on. There's some that exist now, but they're definitely working on some cool sleep tech to really lock in how to wake someone up in the optimal stage of sleep for them. I think there's a lot, you know, just like the Oura ring and the whoop strap and the ultra human ring and all these other sleep tracking devices. They've come a long way in the last five years with their algorithms and with their work wearable tech. I think it'll be at least another 5, 10 years for this technology actually to be, you know, accurate. And because it really, what you'd have to do is deeply track and accurately track your stages of sleep. And there's not really any device like right now. The devices are precise, but they're not necessarily 100% accurate, meaning they're consistent. They're going to give you consistent data, but that data might be consistently inaccurate, if that makes sense. But there are some cool things. There's, there's some headbands. There's a mattress company called the Brighty Bed. It's kind of like the Tesla beds of mattresses. I'm not sure if you've heard of them. The eight Sleep, they're trying to do something similar with their cooling technology and their sleep tracking technology. Like to match your body temperature to get you into deeper stages of sleep, depending on what stage you're in. That's some really cool stuff. Now how accurate and effective are these tools right now? I mean, that's debatable.

Okay, yeah, good to know. Like there's, there's so much, so many products that are coming out on the market and some of them are, can be relatively inexpensive. I mean, expensive is a relative term as well. I mean, some people might find the Oura Ring expensive and certainly we were looking at the eight Sleep mattress cover and you know, they're like, you know, three, four thousand dollars. So they're not, you know, they're not inexpensive. Sometimes it could be more expensive than the actual mattress itself. And what concerns me is, is all that tech. So I'm curious as to what your thoughts are. I know, I know you're not a big fan of technology and especially like screens and stuff like that before bedtime, but with all this tech that's coming out around sleep, maybe you can talk a little bit about that. Because there's more technology creeping into our bedrooms these days.

There is, and I think there, it's for sure, without a doubt, you know, EMFs, there's, I think there's some people that are more sensitive than other people to them. Just like there's some people that are more sensitive to certain types of foods or certain types of environments. I think there's, there's a, there's a spectrum of sensitivity to, you know, electromagnetic frequencies from devices and, and technology. I think it's a good idea to, to protect yourself as much as you can, whether you're sensitive or not. Why take the risk? Is sort of. Because I, I have seen research and studies that kind of support both sides, like, oh, it's safe or it's not safe, but again, the bedroom and the bed, you spend a third of your life on in bed. You know, if you're doing it right, a third of your life is sleep. So, you know, I think it's really important to protect that, that third, that space to mitigate any harmful type of electronic output or frequency.

Yeah, you know, you hear, you hear so many different things. And tell me if this is accurate or not or if you've heard this, but I've heard that in some languages there's no, like, in tribal languages, there's no word for insomnia because it's such a foreign concept in, in those cultures. Is that true or am I just making that up?

No, no, is true. And again, that's like, to the point, like, sleep is the most natural thing in the world. And if it's not happening, then all it means is there's something to look at or learn. And a lot of times it's, again, it's a natural thing. So if something that is completely natural is not happening, then it's assigned to, okay, what do I need to look at? A lot of people say, well, what do I need to do? I like to use the word what do I need to look at? Because you might not need to do anything. You might need to just stop doing stuff, actually. But yeah, it is 100%. It's. I think, unfortunately, we're getting less sleep and the sleep that we are getting is, is absolutely worse based because of all the technology, because of light bulbs, because of smartphones. Just because of the technological stress, because of the access of information, people are sleeping less and their sleep quality is also declining and it's consistently declining. So it is, it is, it is an issue and it's a mental health issue as well because sleep and mental health are deeply connected. You know, more people now are depressed and anxious and suicidal. You know, more people feel disconnected, feel alone. And as a result of that, you know, that affects their sleep and then it compounds the, you know, the issues, these mental health issues. So, you know, sadly that it's, the numbers are not improving. They're actually going in the opposite direction.

Yeah. You know, I remember from your TED talk you said that people used to sleep before the light bulb was invented about nine hours a night and now it's about 6.8. Yes. And certainly those 2.2 hours that we're sleeping less aren't filled with drum circles and meditation and yoga and chanting. Right. It's, you know, work seems to fill that, that void or watching TV fills that void. What would you suggest if, if it, if you ran the world, what would people fill those two hours with? Would it be sleep or is there something else that they can plug in there that would, would help them sleep better?

Yeah, I think it would. I mean, definitely, I would say an hour of that would definitely be sleep. I think some. Listen, does everyone need nine hours or eight hours? Absolutely not. Some people can get away with six and a half hours of sleep and be completely energized and strong and healthy and clear minded. I think eight hours is a myth. But to answer the question, I think doing something that connects you back to yourself, something that you enjoy doing, whether that's a musical instrument, whether that's creating something, whether that's learning something, you know, that you're passionate about, something that's going to, you know, kind of fill you up and allow you to develop as a human. That would be a great use of that time versus doing something what most people do, which is, you know, they do the opposite of that. They do things that kind of are detrimental to their mind and their body and, and their relationships and their, their health during those hours, whether it's going out and drinking alcohol or whether it's know, watching the news or binge watching TV shows, Right. It's, it's, they're doing things that help really feel disconnection and, and so doing something that would help help you feel more whole and more integrated would be what I would suggest. And that's going to look different for, for everyone.

Okay. You know, I, I, I like to, I like to kind of bring in my personal experience into these conversations and kind of gives people a window into my life and, and also, hopefully they can relate to what I'm going to share. So yesterday I, or two days ago, rather, Deepa had come home from a camping trip, and she didn't sleep well there because it was out of her comfort zone and, and being in a tent and stuff like that was just, it's, she loves it, but it's obviously different for her body. And so she came home, she was really tired, so she went to bed late, bit earlier than I did. And I had a webinar that night. So I ended up, you know, not just wanting to, like, dive right into sleep. I wanted to unwind a little bit. So I came to the room and we have a red bulb in, in our night in my nightstand and hers as well. So I turned it on. And she wasn't too happy about that. She's like, what are you doing? I was sleeping. Like, you're waking me up. I'm. And then I'm like, I'm trying to, like, it would make way more noise if I fell because we sleep in complete darkness.

Yeah.

And I thought you were sleeping. And she's like, I was sleeping, but you woke me up. And so we got into this whole thing, and I'm like, if you were sleeping, then I, A light like, that shouldn't have woken you up. And she's like, well, I'm a light sleeper, so. And she's. And I've known that for a while. So my intention was not to wake her up, but my intention was also not to fall and make noise. So is that a thing? Is that a story that we tell ourselves? Or is it like, I'm a pretty deep sleeper and I'll wake up under this under certain circumstances, but if somebody turned a light on, a very dim light, it wouldn't wake me up. So I'm just curious as to. Can we rewrite that narrative or is there something biologically that needs to shift in us for us to sleep a little bit deeper? Or is that just the way some people are wired?

Yeah, that's. It's a really interesting question. I think for sure we can change the narrative and the story about it, and that would be helpful. And I think there are certain people that are, would be considered, you know, lighter sleepers, more sensitive types of people. So I think, you know, it's the story. And there is probably a biological, you know, certain people are, you know, Born with a. Of the gift of sleep. Certain people are born being a little bit of a lighter sleeper, for instance. I'll give you an example. Most women, when they have a baby, no matter if they're a super deep sleeper or they consider themselves a light sleeper, are going to become more of a light sleeper because it's biological to be on more alert because you just brought into the world a baby, right? So like, your body has this intelligence about it. And it's also. Also the stories that we tell ourselves actually massively impact our experiences because it's not just what we do, it's how we think about what we do that also makes the difference. So I think there's. There's a bit of both in that. But I always like to challenge people. Like, what would be possible if you, you know, started telling yourself that you weren't a light sleeper and you started looking for evidence for that not to be true? You'd actually start to find it because we have these biases that kind of confirm what we tell ourselves. And all of a sudden, if you flip the narrative, you actually can start to find evidence. Actually there was a couple. There was a time in my life or there was a, you know, a period of time when I was on vacation or when I was younger or whatever where I actually, I wasn't a light sleeper. So how do you explain that? So that's kind of the. You know, the mind is a very powerful thing. And I've seen some amazing miracles happen when people really challenge the stories and the beliefs that they tell themselves and then start to find evidence for the opposite to be just as true, if not truer.

You know, one thing I've. Thank you for sharing. One thing I've noticed about myself recently is instead of waking up early in the morning and going to work out is sleeping for that hour. And I found that it significantly improved my sleep scores. And it's almost like my body was craving that last hour of sleep. And so part of me is like, I gotta get to the gym and work out because I gotta kind of race the clock because once the day gets started then, you know, it's unlikely that I'm gonna be able to go and I've gotta get to the gym before my son wakes up and before I have to drop him off to school. So what would your advice be to someone like myself? Like, what would. It seems like my body's really craving the sleep. It's. It's. Is definitely enjoying it. Yeah. I'm just curious on your thoughts because that, and that would mean me working out later in the day. So I'm curious how that would affect my sleep.

Yeah, I would say listen to your body. I would say totally listen to your body. If your body, if you're, if it feels more natural and feels more restorative for you to sleep versus get up early and work out, then experiment with getting creative with your schedule where you can fit some of that workout time in, in a place that wouldn't affect your sleep. Now if you're telling me, well, it's, that's gonna be like 9 o' clock at night and usually I go to bed at 10, probably that there's gonna be an impact there. But if you can get creative with your schedule and actually, you know, let your body sleep as much as it needs and then find that other space, whether it's at lunchtime or whether it's, you know, I'm not sure what it's gonna be for you, but it would benefit not only your, your, your, your energy, but your. I, I think you'd find your workouts would actually be, you'd be stronger, you'd be, you'd be, you know, you get a lot more out of your workouts.

Yeah, I'm, I'm. Part of me is excited for when my son can drive himself to school.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's going to change. Right. So it's like maybe, maybe this is a temporary time where you continue to get up and, and sort of sacrifice to sleep. Or, or maybe you can find a balance between, you know, on certain days you allow your body to sleep, on certain days you get up early, and on those days where you allow yourself to sleep, maybe you can squeeze in some, some movement that doesn't involve going to the gym.

Yeah. So a lot, a lot of our clients work with patients who have metabolic challenges. So this could be weight diabetes, energy autoimmunity, immune system issues. Talk to us about how, how sleep is connected to these and when people start sleeping better, what kind of results are you seeing?

Yeah, so it's, it's interesting. So about 15 years ago, I was working in the weight loss space and I always thought it was. So I couldn't wrap my head around, you know, when people change their diet and they were eating clean nutrition, really healthy food, were moving their bodies, but they still weren't losing the weight. I was always so confused around that. And there's so much research that shows that if you are, you could be doing all the right things. But if you're sleep, if you're not sleeping enough or if that sleep isn't quality sleep, your body's going to hold on to the weight. Your body, you know, your cortisol is going to be higher. You're, you know, hormonally you're going to be, your insulin is going to be a little bit or a lot of bit affected. So you're going to crave sugar and fat more. You know, your willpower is going to be less. So there really is this inverse relationship. The more sleep you get and the higher quality sleep you get, the more fat you're going to burn and the less cravings you're going to have for the sugar and the fat. And when you do eat, you're actually going to feel, you know, you're going to feel satisfied. Ghrelin and leptin are those, you know, signaling hormones. Right. So there's a lot of research that, that shows that sleep directly impacts insulin, ghrelin and leptin.

Right.

And those are all hormones that we want to really optimize for when we're talking about metabolic health.

Yeah. So ghrelin helps regulate our appetite, leptin satiety, and then insulin, blood sugar, metabolism and energy. Right. So it's, it's amazing how like a lot of times we'll come across this with clients and they're like, well, I don't, I, you know, they'll, they'll, because we put them on a, a nutrient dense diet that and just naturally ends up being less in calories and they feel like, oh, I'm hungry all the time, I'm hungry all the time. But they're eating a large volume of food so their stomach should be stretched out like it should be quite filling and they'll either not feel satiated or they'll be craving all the wrong foods. And they're thinking it's their willpower. Right. Or it's like a mental weakness that they have. But then we start really breaking it down and discovering that it's their sleep that's the problem. And they're, they're kind of arm wrestling their biology every day and, and then they're beating themselves up for the wrong thing when in fact it, it could just be, hey, you need to get more sleep or better quality sleep and, you know, practice some of the things that we talked about today. Now, I know you work with people that, you know, you work with people along the spectrum, but your focus tends to be people who have, you know, pretty significant sleep challenges. So maybe you can describe to us like who's an ideal referral to your. To your academy.

Yeah. So really, the people we work with, you know, adults, so ages really 30 through 60, is primarily who we work with that are either taking sleeping medication, the sleeping medication has stopped working, or they don't want to have to go on a sleeping medication. And they've tried all the physical things. You know, they've maybe been to therapy, maybe they even been through a CBTI program. They've tried, you know, all of changing their diet, their. All the physical aspects of what might improve health, and they're still struggling with their sleep. Those are. Those are the people that. That we serve. It's. They've tried all the things. Those things have not been effective for them. And usually there's some type of anxiety at this point or nervousness or stress about their sleep and about what it's creating for their health and what it's going to continue to create for their health if they don't figure it out. Often our clients come to us really afraid and lost and confused, like, hey, I tried all these things, all these things that were supposed to help improve my sleep. They haven't. So they believe that they're broken. They feel alone, and they often think that their situation is unique. And I always tell people, you're unique. How you got here is unique, but what you're experiencing is not unique. And people on, you know, when they kind of get into our program, they, you know, we have these group sessions, and they hear other people sharing their stories. All of a sudden, their whole system, you can actually see it. It's really cool. Just relaxes. Because they realize, oh, my gosh, I'm not broken. I'm definitely not alone. And this person is describing my experience, and it kind of just puts them a little bit at ease. So those. Those are the types of clients that, you know, that. That really we specialize in serving and supporting.

All right, awesome. So if somebody is struggling with sleep, no matter where they are in the spectrum, walk me through some of, perhaps your. Your go to kind of sleep criteria that they should try first. And then if those things don't work, then by all means, I'd love for them to come and connect with you. But what are some of the precursors to getting a good night's sleep from your experience?

Yeah. So a great night of sleep happens as soon as you wake up. It's really important for people to get that, because what you do throughout your entire day sets sleep up for success or for it to be a fitful, challenging night. So waking up and if you can wake up in a, in a, in a way that's relaxing. I, I never understood why people, you know, I wake up with these crazy alarms that automatically put their system in a state of stress. Like invest in a. They make these amazing alarm clocks. Now a brand that I'm actually currently testing is called Lofty. You can, you can wake up to like meditation chimes and they have circadian lighting that your lamp starts to light up, wake up in a way that is relaxing and begin your day in a way that is parasympathetic. Like don't go and have the cup of coffee, have the water right, have type some type of. If you can create the space to ease into your day versus like get right on your phone, get right on your computer because you're just setting yourself up for tension and pressure to be built up all day long which is going to make it really hard for the body to then let that tension and pressure off so that sleep can happen. So it's a really an all day thing. What you do all day is going to set sleep up, taking breaks. One of the biggest things that people, one of the biggest mistakes I think people make is they next they go from one, the next thing to the next thing, the next thing. There's no break, there's no time to breathe, there's no time to get back into their body. They're constantly in their head problem solving all day long. Especially entrepreneurs, especially founders. And if there's not this rest throughout the day. Rest leads to sleep. We have a rest deficiency. People do not rest and then they're confused as to why they're not able to sleep. So what does rest look like? I mean there's a lot of different types of rest. Could be mental rest, emotional rest, spiritual rest, physical rest, you know, creative rest. There's a great book called Sacred Rest and she kind of outlines the different types of rest. She's a doctor, Dr. Dalton I think is her name, Sandra Dalton. But really, you know, making sure that you prioritize rest again sets you up for making sleep easier to happen. And then really there's, there's a little strategy that's just so easy to remember and I love to share it. It's the three, two, one sleep. So three hours before you like to be in bed, no work. A lot of us are taking our days right into our nights, right? We're working like you know, up until maybe you know, 30 minutes and then we're getting in bed and our mind's still trying to our Minds are not like light switches. They don't just shut off. So having. For some people, some people need more. Some people can get away with a little bit less. But I like three hours, no work, two hours before bed, you don't want any, you know, no food or technology. So for some people, they need four hours, no food, you know, so this is kind of just. You get to experiment with this. 3, 2, 1. But food, a lot of times people eat way too late. And then that affects deeper stages of sleep, which happen in the first quarter of the night. And then being on devices, I mean, this is the common age of Netflix the Net. The founder of Netflix actually said his competition is sleep, which I'm like, oh, my God. But yes, we're on our devices, we're on our computers, we're on our phones. And it's not so much the blue light, although that does for sure impact our quality of sleep. It's the hyper arousal that that creates. If you're on social media, you're comparing yourself. You're. If you're on your computer, probably researching or you're probably working. Right. All of these things activate our mind. And then one hour before bed, One hour before bed, that is the time where you shift into your parasympathetic, whatever that is, nighttime ritual routine. So that could be some breathing exercises, that could be reading, that could be stretching, that could be a puzzle how I, what I like to do. My routine is I make a cup of tea and I play the piano.

Ah, cool.

Or I read, you know, so do something that you find really relaxing, something that would, you know, kind of take. Kind of let your mind slow down, something that slows you down. And then when you're sleepy, just get in bed and let it happen.

Amazing. I know. There's so much that you can unpack on such an important topic. Where would people go to learn more about the work that you're doing?

So Sleep Science academy dot com, that's, that's where you can go. And. And then we. On YouTube, Sleep Science Academy, I put up a video, probably a video a week, diving deep on some of the topics that we, we touched on in this conversation.

Amazing. So we'll be sure to share the notes for everyone to get access to that. And yes, check out Devin's TED talk that he did. Check out his YouTube channel. He's done several podcasts on this topic as well. And certainly check out the Sleep Science Academy. Everyone deserves a good night's rest, especially us healthcare practitioners who are doing such great work in the world sleep has to be one of our top priorities. And, you know, we need to get our clients sleeping better as well. And so if your clients are struggling with significant sleep challenges beyond just the things that sleep hygiene is going to fix, then Devon certainly is a great referral source for you. And even if they're looking to improve and optimize their sleep, I know you guys have some great resources for people. So thank you for the important work that you do. Thank you for all the insights that you share today. And I want to. I want to kind of leave the floor to you. Is there anything that you'd like to share, perhaps, that I didn't ask with the audience?

Yeah, there's nothing too good about sleeping. And. And sleeping is the best meditation. I think the Dalai Lama said that. But it. It truly is. I mean, there. It's. It's. It's such a. There's. It's a mystical thing, sleep, and it's. It's such a valuable, important thing to really think about. How can. How can I make it, you know, this third of my life, how can I make it the best third of my life to make the other two thirds that much better? It's a really good question to ask. And then invest in it. Invest your time, your attention, your energy into answering that question, whatever it means for you, wherever you're at.

Amazing. Thank you, my friend.

Thank you. Appreciate you having me.

Yeah, of course. Appreciate everything that you shared today. And here's to a good night's rest for everyone listening.

That's awesome.

Have a great day.

Thank you. You too, Satchin.

Thanks, brother. Bye, everyone. Chat with you soon. Check out Devin's work. He's awesome. If you ever get to meet him in person, you'll get a deeper understanding as to why I feel that way. And again, we all need to get a certain amount of sleep each day, whether it's six hours or eight hours, as long as we feel refreshed, rejuvenated, or revived, that's what's most important. And again, now you have a resource where you can send your clients to or you can go to if you need some additional help and support in getting a good night's rest. Sleep well, my friends. Have an amazing rest of your day.