The Power of Organ Meats on Health with James Barry

Hello, friends, and welcome to Perfect Practice. I am so excited because of the conversation that you're going to get to hear today with myself and James Berry. James and I actually met through Mindshare and then we recently hooked up at Genius Network. I say hooked up in a weird way. We had lunch together at Genius Network and as you learn to find out why that's relevant, in just a moment, James and I had a really fascinating conversation. He is the founder of a company called Pluck and they make organ meat based seasoning, which is really fascinating. He was actually on the stage at Mindshare. They did this shark tank, like replica kind of event where people came up there and they pitched their ideas to sharks. Joe Polish being one of them. And it was really fascinating to see James's passion, James's knowledge of this industry and, and how he's taken that passion and knowledge and turned it into a product. And so as somebody who's a vegetarian myself, I often wondered, this product sounds so good. It sounds amazing. And I can see the benefits through the eyes of a clinician and I could see how this makes total sense. And James has found a way to make the delivery of organ meats really simple and tasty for anyone, including children. So we had lunch at Genius Network and it was just a truly fascinating conversation. And I think we both came out of that lunch saying, man, I wish we had recorded that. So we're going to try to replicate some of the questions and conversation that came up and we're going to take some of that dialogue a little bit further. But without further ado, I'd love to welcome you. James, thanks for being here today.

Thank you for having, allowing me to guest. I'm very excited to dig into the conversation.

Well, I feel like everyone should know you, but there's certain things that people probably wouldn't guess from our conversation unless I shared them with them. And that is that you've been a celebrity chef for some of the most famous people on the planet. I'll let you share some of those names. Who are some of these famous people that you've had the pleasure of cooking meals for?

Yeah, truly I had the pleasure. So, yeah, I've been a private chef, personal chef, for over 20 years. And I, I got to cook for Tom Cruise, George Clooney at one point even brought Barbara Streisand briefly, and Gerard Butler for those that know him. And then one of my first clients. A lot of people don't, don't always jump at her name, but she really, they should, because she's been on TV extremely long, I think one of the longest running TV shows ever. It's, it's called. Oh, gosh, now I'm skipping on the name. It's, it's, it's, it's csi. I think that's what it's called. Something. It's one of those, those kind of law, you know, police shows or N. Nci, nsi. Or nci. Yeah, yeah, I think, I think it's, it's placed in New York. But her name is Mariska Hargitay, and she was one of my first clients. And I, I just always love to bring her up because she's, she was such a joy to work for and such a kind person.

I love that. So why, why does a celebrity hire a chef? What's the, what's the basis? Besides, of course, having them cook their meals? Like, how, how do they choose the right person? Like, how does that even. How do you even become a celebrity chef?

I know, right? It, you know, when I started, there was no blueprint, and I, and you could argue there's still no blueprint because, you know, a lot of industry, you can purchase even a book, you can go to school around it. You can, there's some kind of instruction on, okay, do A, to. To M. And then you go do an internship and then you have job and whatever, you know, career it is with private chefing. I remember I got out, I was like, well, what do I charge? How do I get into this? And, And I was fortunate enough to find another private chef who was working for some people who kind of mentored me. And then I, in turn, in my career, I've mentored many people, so I definitely tried to pay it forward. But a lot of people join. They join like those organizations that hire for housekeepers and whatnot. That's how they find work. But I, I find that most people who have the funds and do have a care of what they look like and how they present themselves to the public, they're looking to outsource the things that they don't, you know, truly love or truly have time for and good for them. You know, I think, I think we can all learn a lesson from them in a way, you know, that I think, I think many of us, we, we don't value our time, you know, and, and, and, and time is, is, is something that I think is, you know, as I get older, I'm realizing it's much more precious than I've ever known it to, you know, ever valued it at it's it's pretty much probably more precious than anything in the world. And, and, and so why not? If you have the money, why not outsource those things that, that aren't your specialty? And what was interesting though is that I had to. So when I first started, a lot of celebrities are following whatever is the trend. The trend, you know, the, the most popular book is what most people are hearing about or talking about. So they're like, oh, well, what is that? I want to do that. And when I first got out of culinary school, it was the Fat Flesh diet. So I learned very quickly that I had to understand whatever the trending diet was. I had to, I had to not not only read the book, but actually work on the recipes so I could be very good at them. Because initially that's how you first get hired is a celebrity's trying to meet a certain requirement, whether it's weight requirement or look, and you need to come in and execute based on if they're working with a nutritionist, you need to execute on that nutritionist's instructions or you need to already knowing a specific diet and you're going to work with them. I was fortunate enough that when I came up, I had also studied nutrition. That was just a passion of mine as well. And so I came in and a lot of celebrities I worked with as I cooked for them realized, oh, I'm going to just eat what he makes. Because I cook so clean, like everything was made from scratch. I used whole foods. I didn't, I didn't use anything that was ultra processed. I, I really focused on clean eating. And I think people started like, particularly women who had had a lot of, had had trouble losing their baby weight. They, they realized, oh, wow, eating this way, I'm, I'm just losing the weight. I also kept it fairly low carb as well, which I think helped. This was before that was even a thing really. Oh, I guess Atkins was around then, but, but not. Nothing else beyond Atkins.

I love that I know you, you mentioned that you also work with Puff Daddy. So what's interesting is you've got like, you know, obviously people have goals. They want to be healthy, they want to be vibrant, they want to look a part, play a part. What, what, what was something notable without, without saying names because we want to preserve your clients privacy. But what was something that stuck out to you working with celebrities or other individuals when it came to preparing their meals? Was there something big takeaway that you could, you could share with us?

Well, many, I mean, for the most Part. Many of them are very normal. I mean, there were circumstances that were abnormal. I think I would describe a celebrity as really someone who just. It's. It's a regular human being in extraordinary circumstances, you know, where they have more. You know, they have more attention on them. They have more potential money than other people, more resources. But ultimately they're just human beings. So they're all still dealing with their own cravings, their own addictions. And I found the way I worked with celebrities was I really just. I came in and I treated them just like regular people. I. I can't even. Like, most people would have pictures with the people they worked with. I have maybe a couple. Mean, I don't have many because I never. I never did that with them. I just. I came in. I. I really. I didn't try to necessarily become their best friend. I know some people do that. I. I just. I came in and I. I saw. I saw that I had a role to fulfill, and I. And I really focused on that and honoring, you know, their environment, honoring their privacy. But I would. I would just offer that they're really not that different. I mean, they. They crave the same things everyone craves. I. Difference is that sometimes their why is a lot clearer, right? Like, some people don't really know why they should be healthier, why they should be mindful of what they're putting in their. In their mouth. And when you have, you know, a $300 million movie that you have to be starring in and performing at your top, that's a big why. It's a lot of pressure. And so I would. I would always see, you know, a lot of celebrities when they were filming or about to film. They would be very disciplined. And then once it was done, they'd go back to being, you know, an inconsistent human. But, you know, so. But that. What you know, there. That. That kind of reason, I think really does ground people in. In helping them be dedicated to whatever it is they're choosing.

That's a. It's a great insight that you offered there. There are ordinary people and extraordinary circumstances. So thank you for sharing that. Let's fast forward us into kind of some of your more recent adventures, which is really what I'm excited to talk about. And the most recent one that I'm aware of is Pluck. And I know you're involved in helping co write cookbooks, and you've recently written recipes for some pretty big books that are coming out. But let's talk about Pluck for a moment. Where did that idea originate of using organ meats as seasoning.

I've always strived towards supporting humans, you know, people where they're at. And so I've never been someone fascinated with the intricacies of the culinary arts more. I was more out to learn it because I wanted to help people. That was always the motivation. But I recognize that we're very human and we are inconsistent. We are, we gravitate towards comfort foods. And so that was kind of the lens I always looked at it. It's like, okay, how can I meet people where they are but take the foods that they're eating and make those better or cleaner for them? And, and so that's the lens. But, but I didn't really come to the idea of pluck where I conceived how to get organ meats, which I, I, from my research are the most nutrient dense food on the planet. But how to get over the hurdles that everyone struggles eating them. They either struggle with the taste, they struggle with sourcing, and they struggle with just how to cook it and what to do with it. It's. So that's really what I focused on. But it was ultimately a very personal experience that I had with my, in my family. So my two daughter, we were on a trip to Canada of all places, since I'm speaking to a Canadian. But they got Shiga toxin which is a, A, is a toxin from E. Coli. And my oldest daughter who at the time was I think around five, she basically 48 hours passed, she was fine. And when you have sugar toxin, it's. You can't hold anything in. Not literally nothing. And, and for elderly people and for the, and for the very young that it can be a deadly, deadly illness because you cannot give an antibiotic. It's, it's. We were very fortunate and my wife is a nutritious and she just, she, she instinctively knew something was off. And we did a, we did a stool test and we immediately got a call from the, the lab that said you, you, you, you know, basically put us on high alert. They're like, this is serious. You make sure that you do not give them an ad because that actually can release the toxin even faster and, and overwhelm the body. So my oldest got through it, but my youngest who was around 2, she did not. And it took a lot longer and it got to the level where she was like skin and bones. It was very. I know you're a father as well. It's like, it's very. Just scary in, in general when you see any, anyone suffering. But when, when it's your own child. It's, it's just takes it to a whole other level. And she came out of it though, and the one food she could eat was toast. And if you've ever experienced, you know, someone with, you know, illness, the thing that they get ill from, they won't touch, but then the thing that they, they glob onto that is working, they almost become an addict around it. And so that's all she would eat. I mean for I'm talking a long time, she wouldn't touch anything else, just toast. And you know, as someone who cares about food and nutrition, I was like, is not healthy, like this is not good. And I, I just started at that moment. I started really conceiving like if there was just something I could sprinkle on that toast to just make it a little healthier, better for her. And I didn't necessarily connect the dots then and there with luck, but that is what spurred me kind of thinking of like something that's shelf stable, something that someone can easily sprinkle on their meals. And ultimately it brought me to that idea of, of that we already have freeze dried powdered organ meats in the form of capsules. And if I could just utilize that, you know, that modern technology and make it taste better because the reason it's in capsules is because it doesn't taste that good. So and then I basically started, you know, deconstructing pate. And what do we do with pate? Well, we, we, we use onions, we use garlic, we use these different herbs and, and spices and, and, and fat and whatnot to, in the pate to make it tastes better. And so I just tried to do that with dry ingredients. So then that, that basically the result was pluck which is, contains five organs. It contains liver, heart, kidney, spleen, pancreas, from 100% grass fed cows. And it, it really does remove the barriers. It, you don't need to know how to cook. You can just sprinkle on anything. You don't need to worry about sourcing. We did that for you. And then we really did it tastes delicious. Like most people don't even realize they're eating organ. I mean, well, you got to try it, right? I mean you can speak to that. So I shouldn't, I, I should fill your head with words. But yeah, I mean you can share how it tasted, but it, it really, we get amazing feedback from parents so they're doing exactly what I wanted to do in that moment with my kids and now I do with my Kids, which is I, they. I sprinkle it on everything. They're always getting these nutrient dense sources from Mother Nature on their.

I love the philosophy. I love your passion, I love your why behind what you do. And I want to draw people into that moment where I actually try the product. So we're sitting at lunch in Mindshare, and you were so gracious, you were giving everyone samples to try out. And I could just tell that this guy is so over the moon about this product, I have to try it. And even as a vegetarian myself, it kind of. It kind of broke my. My fast, if you will, from eating any animal products. But I said, I want to speak intelligently to this because I don't want. I know that there's people that can benefit from this product, and I want to be able to offer my honest opinion when I recommend it. I don't like to endorse things or recommend things that I haven't personally tried myself. And I know I've known you for almost two years now, and, you know, I could have easily endorsed your product without actually trying it, but you and I both know that that just doesn't jive with me. So after trying the product, I'm like, oh, this actually tastes quite good. And I sprinkled it on my salad and enjoyed it immensely. So thank you for that. And now I can speak openly to it, which is the honest truth. The product tastes amazing. And if we're able to add, you know, something that tastes good and something that's healthy and disguise it, if we want to call it that, from our children or even our family members, now we're actually upgrading the things that they're consuming without them even realizing it, with them actually benefiting from taste and from the nutritional value as well.

Yeah, I agree. I mean, I. I think sometimes we get locked in this idea that we have to be, oh, honest about everything. We feed someone and, and I don't really see it as a black or white thing. I don't see it as you're being honest or dishonest. I think that whenever you cook a meal, are you really break, like. And you, you, you, you. Let's say you have a whole bunch of people at your table and you're breaking down. Here's the menu. You don't break down the entire recipe. You say, I'm serving lasagna. You know, you don't say, well, I used salt, pepper, tomatoes, you know, garlic, onions. I use some noodles. I use this. You know, you don't. You'. And so I Think. I think we get trapped in this way of thinking. But the reality is, is that if it's. If it. If it tastes good and it's good for you and it's easy to apply, why wouldn't you use it? Like, and I'm not talking just about pluck. I'm talking about anything like. Like, we. We. I think if there's one thing I've Learned in my 20 years is that, you know, for health food to become lifestyle, it has to hit really two things. It has to be easy, because that's where our humanity comes in. We. We just will do hard things for a little bit. Well, we don't do them that long, you know, but then it also has to be delicious because we. We will. Same thing with things that are gross or just are not very flavorful. We'll do them for a certain amount of time, but then we default to the things that, you know, stimulate our hormones and whatever the, you know, the, the hormones in our, you know, excite us. You know, endorphins and whatnot. Yeah, dopamine. Exactly. So we always default to that. So that's why I really saw it as, like, okay, I have to hit those two things. And, and when you taste it, that's. The other thing is a lot of people. Yes, I promote whole eating, whole animal. I want to make whole animals easy for people as possible because I feel like there's a huge gap in the world right now is there's so much focus on either, you know, muscle, meat, like, just eating that. But, you know, from a holistic standpoint.

Where.

My, you know, for my money, I feel like we're losing. We're losing sight of something. You know, if we talk about ancestrally, for example, there's two things that really stand out to me. One is that. And this is not my quote, this is a quote from Bill Schindler, who wrote Eat like a Human. He's a doctor of archeology, and he says, you know, humans are the only species in the world that look to someone else to tell us what to eat. You know, and so when you think about that, you know, we have. We cannot forget we're animals. That's the baseline of what we are. But we have lost our way around our food systems. So in this, I. And the idea of, like, okay, let's just say we're back in the day, we're a tribe. I'm just going to throw out a number with 23 people in that tribe.

The.

The effort it took to slaughter an animal, then or even capture an animal was immense. And. And if you had to feed those 23 people, well, how many livers are there? How many hearts are there? There's not a lot. There's one. You know, I mean, and that. That means 23 people may not get a piece of that liver. It's probably going to go to the people that really need it. Same thing with the heart. But if you look at it from the whole animal now, we have other. That we bones, we have spleen, we have the different glands, we have. We do have heart, liver, kidney. We have so much more. You know, you. You have. I think someone broke it down. It's something like, well, it doesn't actually matter, but. But there's a certain amount of pounds of everything, you know, a certain amount of pounds of meat. Then you have certain amount of pounds of organs and whatnot. And when you put it all together, that's how the tribe is. Is getting nutrient, you know, getting their nutrients. It's not from one part. If we. If we slaughtered that animal and just took the ribeye, we would be classified insane, you know? You know, I mean, that would literally make zero sense. And I think that that is where we are in the state of the world, to a degree that we are. We are. We've gotten so separated from our food sources, and we're all kind of there. There is, I think, mass confusion going on about what we should be. And it's gotten even more intense, in my judgment, with social media, because we have so many people, so many influencers talking about what you should be eating, and they're all saying something different to a degree. I mean, I can't even tell you. I scroll and I see one person saying, don't eat vegetables. You know, another person saying, no, eat them. Another person saying, just eat meat. Another person saying, eat a whole animal. Some people are saying, no dairy. Some people, you know, it's like it's all over the map. And I just try to get back to what's simple. What, you know, the simplest thing. And. And if I can make the simplest thing as easy and delicious for you as possible, then my hope is that then you're going to eat it. You'll feel better in your body, which means hopefully, in the long run, you'll treat others better. Because once we feel better, we treat others better.

Isn't that the truth? Amen. Yeah, I would imagine. I'm curious, since this is a business podcast. I'm also curious on the business side of this venture. And of course, what precedes any business and entrepreneurial venture is the passion. Right. So we get to get a sense of why you're passionate about this. We've been prescribing glandular formulations for clients for many years and now this is a, you know, obviously being incorporated into our food so it's easier to take. It's, it's at a dosage safe for the whole family to take. So we don't have to wait until somebody's unwell to, to nourish their bodies. Right. We can nourish them, you know, kind of in a, you know, forward facing strategy. What were some of the initial challenges? I'm sure there's supply chain things to consider, there's packaging, there's labeling. I, I'd love to, I'd love to hear what some of those challenges and obstacles were that you had to overcome.

Yeah, the initial was is it a USDA product or fda? And I, I initially came out the door saying well, I want to make organ meats a food again because right now when they're where they're in capsules, they're deemed dietary supplement. And, and I believe it's a food. You know, I, I think that, that particularly since there's nothing being done to it, most, most of the encapsulate organy is it's raw, frozen and then processed so that it's, it's more uniform size and then it's dehydrated or, or freeze dried I should say, and then, and then powdered. So there's, there's, there's very little done to it. There's nothing added to it, agent flow, agent wise or anything like that. And so it's very pure. So that was a really interesting thing because the USDA and fda, because we are the first to do this where you, we combine spices with it. The two ingredients separate had existed in, in the, in the world but no one had combined them. And so the USDA and fda, they didn't know what to do with it. They literally lobbed it back and forth with each other saying well, I think this is yours. No, it's yours. And then finally after a couple months the USDA said well, I guess we have to take it because you have, you're calling it a seasoning and, and, and also because I had over a certain percentage of meat and they actually tried to talk me into not using as much organ meat in it. So if you put 2% or less of a meat product in, in any product, it's not USDA, so it's only when it's over 2%. So they, and of course I told them that's absurd. It's just, you know, something you're putting pinches on. So you're getting, it's a micro dosing, you know, tool. And the concept is you're microdosing frequently, which is cumulative effect. Well, if you don't do it frequently and then that micro dose isn't substantial, then you know, it's, it's snake oil. You know, I was like, I'm not gonna put 2% organ meats in something that's already getting pinches. So that was the first hurdle. But then what was interesting is once I went to the USDA or once I made it a food product, then I had to try to source it in the US As a food. So I had to, I had to have everything go through the USDA and I, they gave me a few pages of, of co. Packers that were USDA certified and I went through the entire four pages and no one could do my product because as you can imagine, they're all wet. So they're all, they're all butcher shops or, or they're dealing with mostly muscle meat, but they're not powdered muscle meat, which is key because when you have a powdered product, there's potential for contamination in the air. So, so finding a facility that had a low, low ceiling that could handle those kind of products couldn't find it. And eventually I was, I, it took me eight months of trying to work with different people, getting so far and then getting turned away that I then had to turn it into a dietary supplement. And, and what's interest. I've done that. A lot of people don't even realize. It's, it's, it's, it's a dietary supplement, first of all. So it goes to show that a lot of people don't understand the, the box on the back of the, the package. Because if it's a, if it says nutritional facts, that means it's a food. If it says dietary, dietary facts, you know, or, or dietary supplement, that means it's, it's not. Consider it's an FDA product then. And what I recently learned though, is I can never really turn it into a food because the US basically labels those, some of the glands in the animal as dietary stuff. Like they, they don't see them as food. So, so there's really no. Like, I, and I just learned that little piece because, because so Pluck, as I mentioned, has liver, heart, kidney, spleen and pancreas. So those are all considered dietary like those technically could be a food if I could find all the sourcing and make it all work, which I, I couldn't. But if I go to any kind of glands. Nope, can't, it can't be a food because it's, it's, it's, it's labeled in the US as a dietary. Someone, they don't, they don't recognize it. Brain as well is not, is not even available. If you wanted to put that purchase, you know, create a, a food, a supply chain here in the US you couldn't do it. There's a handful of. This is actually something I've learned as well is there's a handful of animal parts that you cannot put out for sale in the US So brain is one of them. And I know that they say oh it's because of mad cow, but that, that's, that's what I think is, is the propaganda. But I, but I've heard that it's actually, there's a very short list of what you cannot put out for sale and that it's pharmaceutical industry that takes it. So, you know, I think it's a little bit more shady than we realize, but point being that, that, that has been a huge kind of learning curve and people always ask us, why aren't you, why aren't you sourcing from the US because we source from New Zealand. And I'm like, I tried, I, I, and I'll keep trying, but it's, it's much harder than you think.

Is there a big difference in the quality between us and New Zealand? Because from what I understand New Zealand has very high standards.

They do. And they're also, they're an island so they can control their environments a bit more. They, they have year round green grass, whereas most other parts of the world, you're going to have a season where the cows can't, Even if they're 100% grass fed, it's not green grass. And so a lot of people don't realize that if they're a really good farm, what they do is they'll culture the grass, the grass that they've holed or the ha. So that makes it better and more digestible for the animal. But yeah, New Zealand, it's one of their major exports. So they've really dialed in that, that cattle industry. They've, they're very, they're not 100% clean like you'll, you will still find, you know, CAFOs to a degree in New Zealand. But the majority of the 100% grass fed regenerative farms. They exist there and, and they do a very good job. They also make sure that the, pretty much the whole animal is accessible. Like you can, you can get brain in New Zealand for example. You just can't get it here in the U.S. yeah. So U.S stock is, it's, it's, it's a, it's a difficult nut to crack and we are, but we are working on it and, and I'm, I'm in talks with some people that may have even potentially figured out. But what's interesting is you would think that sourcing in the US Would be cheaper and it won't be. It will actually probably be just as, or even a little bit more expensive. So that becomes an issue as well. It's like it's hard to believe that we're sourcing from New Zealand. We're paying over $1,000 in the shipment, you know, the air shipping of that product. And yet it's still going to be as expensive or slightly cheaper than if we create a US Supply chain like that. That, that to me is crazy, but that's, that's the way it is.

Well, you got to navigate these nuances right when you're putting this all together.

Yeah. And when I also launched during COVID which was, that was a fascinating one because how do you, how, how do you like, that was, that was a real interesting dilemma because I was launching a product that people didn't understand what it tasted like because they'd never experienced anything like it. And I had no means of getting samples to people, you know, in a live situation because of COVID So I, I was fortunate enough to come up the idea of like, oh, I got on as many podcasts as I could and what I would do is I would send the podcast host the product before I was on so I could ask them, well, what did they think it tastes like? How did they like it? And, and that was, that was a really, that was really good. That ended up working very well to help kind of get us launched and proof of concept. But it was, I'm sure there's many other people that have code, you know, Covid tales of launching products during those years. But it, it was definitely, it continued well and even still continues to be a bit of a challenge in that people. One of the biggest questions I get is well, how much am I really getting and how do I know? Like how do I know it's really working and, and my whole, my whole point like on this or my perspective on is like well, look, here's the deal. When you, when you like going back to that ancestral concept, I think this is actually something we even recently talked about. Like, but there's that idea that we're moving too far away from this kind of ancestral. This natural innate knowledge of what we, our bodies know, what it needs, right? We're all bio individuals. I'm sure you talk a lot about that to your practitioners. So the key is, well, how do you get back to that intuitive knowledge? And I guarantee you're not going to get it by swallowing things. Because when we swallow a pill or a capsule, we're bypassing that biological communication. So, you know, if we think about it, if we break it down, so, so digestion starts with your eyes. You know, you see something, maybe it's a bright color. You. You see the shape of something. You see a photo, whatever it is, and you're immediately pulled into it. And that could be due to your associations with whatever you're seeing or just because it's a beautiful photo, right? And then you bring that. Let's just say it's some produce. Then you bring that closer. Now you're, You're. You're accessing your, Your, Your smelling, Your. Your olfactory station, right? You know, and so now you get these smells, and those are triggering, you know, kind of concepts in your brain, right? And now you take a bite. And now your saliva, you know, it's touching your taste buds. Your saliva is, is. Is conjoining with it, and you're breaking it down. And all this starts to communicate to your body of, okay, A. Is it nutritious? What does it have? And does it have stuff that we need and want? And so then the body starts to process it. It goes into you, but you're. It's still communicating. Do I want more? Do I need more? Do I. Do I not need more? You know what is, if we eat slow enough, we get that communication, and your body will tell you when to stop. The problem is, is so many of us eat too so fast. And we're also eating foods that are high in flavor because they have natural or artificial flavors, but they have very little nutrition. And that also confuses our bodies because our bodies associate flavor in nature. If something has flavor, it usually means it has nutrition, but not so in our grocery stores. It's like the exact opposite. So it's very confusing. And, and when you swallow something like a capsule, you completely bypass that. And I always use as an example salt. Like, salt's the, the most tangible example because everyone has done it, you put it on your tongue, your body immediately responds, oh, I want more of this or I don't want more. But I guarantee when you get to three dips of your finger on that salt and in touching on your tongue, you're probably not going to be able to go much further. Like your body will literally tell you to stop. The salt will taste different. But if I swallow a salt tablet, totally bypass that, that communication 15, 20 minutes later. Why am I bloated? Oh, I got too much of something. So, so one to me is guesswork and one is helping to get us back to that innate biological communication that we have with our bodies. And, and, and so that's ultimately what I'm really, that's what I try to push to people, is that when you eat it, your body will tell you how much you need or don't need. And in, in people that have done it, like if you eat liver, if anyone actually take, you know, beef liver is huge. Like that's one thing. It's very overwhelming. And if someone cooks that up, it's very hard to eat it all in one sitting. And if you do, it starts to taste different the longer you eat it. And most likely if you're, if it's starting to taste differently by the end and, and it doesn't actually taste good to you, but you're just eating it because you don't want to waste it, then that's you not listening to that innate, your body's telling you you're good, you got enough. Because it's so nutrient dense. You really don't want to overdo it because we can get too much of something, right? You can all, you can get too little of something. You can also get too much of something. So I just, I'm just like, I kind of attack it in that way. And then I guess the last way I kind of answer that question is like, well, I'm like, well look, we're already seizing our food and right now most people use like Lowry's All Purpose. They use Old Bay. They, those are the most popular seasonings around and seasonings, a lot of them have sugar in them, they have anti caking agents, they have stabilizers, they have things that are really not good for us. Some, some have canola oil in them, vegetable oils and it's. And I don't think people realize that when you're making a product, the, the thing that they're trying to do is make a profit. And so spices are expensive, but what's not expensive is salt and Sugar. So most blends will have high, they'll be high in salt. And that's because the most of the blend is salt, because it's the cheapest ingredient. And then they'll fill in with other things so it gives it some kind of flavor. But when you start to kind of taste the difference between these seasonings, you find like some of them that they truly are like extremely salty. We're just also, you know, adrenals are probably also tapped that we don't realize it. But, but, but. So I always try to show people like, you know, you're using, you know, these seasonings, they're giving nothing to you except lots of salt and potentially harmful ingredients. And if you just switch to something like pluck, not only we use Redmond real salt, not only are you getting like really clean salt, but you're also getting these now these nutrients that you were not getting before. And we, we have a whole diagram on our website just showing you what, what you get when you use those, you get with us. And to me, that's what it's about. The, the more you do something that's healthy, make it lifestyle, then you're getting benefits every day and you don't have to even think about it.

Yeah, I'm so huge on this concept that you talked about where a lot of times we're bypassing our innate mechanisms of taste, of smell, of, you know, of our immune system and our nervous system interacting with the food before we even swallow it. You know, some of the pills that we swallow our body, if we put em in our mouth, we'd probably spit em out, which would be kind of the innate response to some of these things that we may or may not actually need. So using that, you know, kind of going down that vein, like having that feedback is so crucial and important. And it also kind of triggers the enzymes in our digestive organs to start activating as well. Which again, a lot of times these things get overlooked. So it's not uncommon to hear people saying, oh, I took these supplements and I felt really bloated afterwards. And it's because, yeah, you didn't even give your body a chance to identify what was coming in and whether it was welcome or not.

Well, they said that they're nauseous as well, sometimes from them. Yeah. And isn't that interesting too, because a lot of times, you know how when you're taking a supplement, you might be told, well, you need to eat this with food. And that's because it's a fat soluble vitamin or something. That's in the, in the pill. But what's so fascinating is that organ meats truly are Mother Nature's multivitamins. So they are. You don't have to worry about eating it with food because it is a food, you know, so it's like. And it.

And it.

What's beautiful is that the nutrients that are in it are, are either paired well, so meaning that they're going to support as the, the most absorption or they're that the most absorbable version of that, like heme iron, you know, for example, in them. But what I also find that's fascinating is that when you look at a prenatal, so what science is telling you, you need to create life. If you look at what's in a prenatal, from the folate to the iron to all the different vitamins, the B vitamins in there, it's all in organs. And so I'm not saying people should just eat organ meats instead of doing a prenatal, but you can absolutely do them together because there is this, there is that idea of like, supports, like, and when we, when our bodies have the opportunity to eat, kind of follow our instincts of what our bodies need and you're eating, let's say, you're being drawn to eat something like liver, let's say. Well, you might, you never know, there might be some kind of knowledge your body has of your own liver needing that support because the, the nutrients in that liver are, are high in those ways because that liver has a function to do. And those are the same, you know, nutrients and vitamins in your own liver. So in some way you're supporting that organ when you eat that organ is the concept. And I, I have to share this because I was actually, I learned about this just yesterday and I was just looking up before we got on, but this is fascinating. So orcas, killer whales, they are known for attacking a shark and only eating one part of the shark, the liver, isn't that fascinating? Like they, they, they literally eat just the liver, no other part of the shark. And I think that is, I just, I find that extremely interesting, particularly since if you let an animal, you know, if you're, if, if you've ever seen an animal eat in the wild, most of them also go straight for the organs and eat the organs and sometimes leave the muscle meat there to kind of age or whatever, to kind of dry out a little bit, and then the scavengers come and eat some of that, but they'll come back and gnaw it later. But for the most part the, the first stuff they eat are, are the organs typically. So it's just fascinating when you look in nature, what, what is nature eating? You know, initially particularly the carnivores, obviously, what are they eating first? And I think it could be very telling towards, well, maybe what we need since we're not that different.

Yeah, it's a great instruction manual. Right. Just look at nature and what does nature do? Maybe there's something, something there that we need to pay closer attention to.

Absolutely. And I have to say that's why I was, I was just so respectful of, I respected very much how when you did try pluck and I shared this with you, but I was very honored that you chose that product to break your, your meat fast. And, but the other thing is, is that I was just, I feel like people need to, if no one has articulated this about you, of your integrity, I know you shared that you wanted to make sure you would try the product, but to me it's bigger than that. I, I feel like what you were modeling in that moment was like you were, you were following what your body instinct was in that moment, which was, you know, I'm feeling like I need to try this. And you didn't necessarily go out and eat a steak that night. That wasn't what your body was calling, but you, in that moment you spoke to what your, your innate kind of like communication, what was your, you were innately experiencing. And I think that that is very, that's just a beautiful model of what we're talking about here is that if we, if we just let our ethics or I'm not, I don't know. Of course you're, you're, you're. I'm not speaking to your specific reasons for your dieting, but I'm, I'm more talking out there in general that we can get very heady about things and we can stop learning and listening to our body's responses, that we only focus on our mind's resolute, you know, decisions. But our bodies have responses. And I, and I personally believe it's like our body is the soothsayer, our body is the knower, they're, they're the all knowing. You can't escape the truth that your body will reveal. So, so that's what you listen to in the long run. And, and you follow whatever, whatever, even if it's just a momentary, you know, moment of following it, that you follow that and let it lead you where it goes versus your head leading you. And so I Just. I just really respected. I respect you, but I also just respected that moment of how you handled it and what you modeled.

Thank you. I received that. I appreciate that. You know, one of my mentors, Diane Solano, you know, one of the things that she said, it kind of echoing in what you're saying, which is, the body never lies. The body's always that. That. That communicator. It's always communicating to us. And if we can kind of let our dogmatic beliefs perhaps aside for a moment and just listen to what our body's saying, because we're always. A lot of times we're overriding, intellectually overriding. Especially this day and age when there's so much information, it's hard to even know what's. What's right for us or what's good for us, because sometimes we get swept up into these dogmatic ways of thinking. And I think it's important for everyone to kind of recognize what their body needs and when it needs it. Like, I'll have patience. And to be totally transparent, I never project my dietary values onto anyone else. And so I always try to maintain an objective perspective, because sometimes people will ask me, oh, I'm craving this. What should I do? And if it's something that's healthy, I'll tell them, listen, your body probably wants more of it. It. It's not uncommon for women, you know, who are, let's say, vegans or vegetarians, to start craving meat again, and it's because their body actually needs it. And sometimes when people are ascending through different, you know, aspects of their. Their personal transformations, they may not feel called to eat meat. In fact, this afternoon I had a conversation with somebody, and he was saying, you know what? Every time I eat chicken, it just doesn't. Something just doesn't agree with me. I can't put my finger on it. So no matter how good I make it taste, it's just. Something doesn't sit right with me. I'm like, well, hey, that's your body's way of telling you it doesn't need this or want this at the moment. And when. When it does, it'll let you know that as well. So we can focus on eating other foods that are just as nutrient dense or perhaps even more nutrient dense. That's going to give your body more of what it actually needs. So I totally agree. From that perspective, the body never lies. You know, let's put our dogma aside and give our body more of what it needs so that we could be around longer and be of service to others much longer as well. James, I'd love to know where can people get pluck? Where can they learn more? I'm sure people listening want to try it and experiment with it and add it to their own nutritious and healthy meals. Tell us more about how we can do that.

Absolutely. So you can go to our website@eatpluck.com you can also get us on Amazon. Just look us up at, you know, Pluck seasoning or, or organ seasoning. It will pop up. And then on our website you can even we have a section for locations and we are sold in some clinics. There's some places even in Canada that were sold as well. So you can go there to find if there's a place near you where it sells. And then we have lots of recipes on our site as well. So make sure to check it out there. We, we really do. If you, you know, if you ever have any questions around organ meats, we really try to support that and how to cook them because we're not just about you eating pluck. We really are. Our mission is to try to help people eat that whole animal and to, if they want to use pluck, that's great. But we also have other resources on how to ease organ meats into your diet as well.

I love it. Thank you so much. My friend. I know you're in the middle of moving and as busy as you are, you took time out of your, your schedule this season to spend time with me and, and share your passion with our audience. So I greatly appreciate you. Please say hi to Margaret for me and lots of love to your family. And here's to an amazing, epic year ahead for you and the whole team at Pluck. And here's to our listeners health and wellness and happiness. Get your, get your products at epluck.com, check your local grocer. If you're a practitioner. See if you can incorporate this first into your personal practices, try out the products and perhaps even encourage and endorse them to your patients as well. James, is there anything you want to share with us before we jump off?

I just wish everyone a fabulous year. And please just always know to reach out. We have affiliate programs, we have wholesale. So we're always happy to answer any questions and to support, support this, the eating of that whole animal. So please, please ask.

All right. Thank you, my friend. Have a wonderful rest of your day.

Thank you.

You too.