What is food inflammation testing? with James White

Hello, my friends, and welcome to Perfect Practice. I am very honored and excited for our conversation today. With me, I have none other than James White. James is the founder of KBMO Labs. And this lab has actually been very instrumental in my own healing journey because it's helped me in getting a better understanding of what foods I should and should not be eating. As we know, food is medicine. However, one person's food could be poison for somebody else. So today we're going to take a beginner's mind approach, and we're going to be discussing what functional food testing looks like and get a better understanding of how our body responds to foods that are favorable to it and foods that are not favorable to it. As clinicians, this gives us a really good insight into what might be leading to somebody's chronic inflammation, perhaps chronic pain, despite eating a healthy and nutritious diet. I met James actually at Mindshare recently, and he was kind enough to actually run my labs for me. His assistant was on the spot, and I discovered some things about myself that I'm glad I did, but did not expect. So a lot of times it's important for us to know that there could be hidden triggers to people's underlying issues, and sometimes there may be issues going on below the surface that they may not even be aware of. And so we're going to be discussing what that looks like, how to test for it. I love the convenience of this lab. I love the turnaround. I've had amazing service working with James and his team. So I know that you're all in for a treat. And like I said, we're going to take a beginner's mind approach so that, you know, those of you who are not using this type of testing and even those of you who are are going to benefit from this dialogue. And I should give a shout out to Dr. Robert Silverman because he pulled me over and he said, you got to meet James. And so grateful that he did so. Without further ado, James, thanks for joining me today. I appreciate you taking time out of your busy schedule.

My pleasure. And exactly. Shout out to Dr. Rob. Sure.

He seems to know a ton of people, a super smart guy, and from a clinical standpoint, anything he says, I'm all at ears. I trust him with my life. And so thank you for the work that you guys do. And let's dive right in. I mean, tell us a little bit more about what got you into the space. I'd love to know that. Yeah.

So it's interesting. So before we kind of set up this company, my kind of previous background, been running different diagnostics companies, from blood gas analysis to molecular diagnostics. And then I got involved in cardiovascular testing a bit and we were doing some specialized testing. It was specialized at the time for things like lp, which are a little bit more mainstream now than they were back then. But really what kind of brought me to this business was that when I was talking with a lot of the cardiologists, it seemed to be let's eat less and exercise more was pretty much the mantra after all their training. So what was a little bit surprising with my molecular diagnostic background, but there was no real personalized care, so it wasn't looking at the individual. It was more or less kind of one size fits all, you know, and the fact that we're even still talking about a food pyramid probably tells you about how far off base. Base we are in terms of, you know, what's going on, in terms of, you know, the science and how far it's progressed. And. And so it was really down to that fact that I had a background looking at the lecture and was really enjoying the fact that, you know, you could get so detailed on an individual. But then something as mainstream as cardiology, which was, you know, this massive problem for every nation around the country, we were still talking about pyramids. And so I thought, well, there must be a better way of getting to that. And that's when I came across the company. And so I partnered with a gentleman called Dr. Brent Dorval, who was a real genius. He'd invented the first rapid HIV diagnostic. But in many cases, like many of these brilliant scientists, was really comfortable being in the lab and at the bench, but less comfortable doing the things like the trade shows, the mindshares, where I bumped into you in terms of going on, you know, out and explaining to people what the massive benefits of this patent is tests were. And so I think it was. It was one of those, you know, precipitous moments where all these things begin to come in, in an alignment of, you've looked at molecular, you've done some blood gas, you've done some cardiovascular, everything is underpinned in some level by inflammation. And then I stumbled across Dr. Brent and his brilliant testing. But again, when I met him and said, I think I've got a really good test. And so. And I said, well, how many people have you got running? He said, well, I've got three providers. And so I called them all up and went, you know, so how are you? They were like, they were unbelievably positive about this test. Look, this is. This is what the world's been missing, James. And so I was like, wow, all three of you are saying this. And sometimes providers aren't always as kind of positive about a test as they can be. They go, yeah, it's okay, and. But they were all, you know, really excited about this. And so that's what really led me into kind of getting involved in this business, was leaving the comfort of probably a larger public company, all these larger companies, and say, why don't I go back to kind of basics? And we started with two people, and so that was the journey in terms of getting to the business.

Yeah. And just so everyone knows, now you work with over 10,000 practitioners, so you've kind of grown, you know, the business quite effectively. But. But more importantly, that tells me that what you guys do actually works. Right. Because if it didn't work, then there wouldn't be the rapid growth that's taken place. And certainly my endorsement was Dr. Silverman. And so clinicians like him who are at kind of peak performance in terms of their clinical knowledge, are oftentimes looking for the best of the best testing. So, again, thank you for creating something so meaningful. What I'd. What I'd love to do, or being part of something so, so meaningful. What I. What I'd love to do is, is kind of start from, you know, the beginning. Right. Because as a practitioner, there's so many different labs that are out there. And help me understand the differences between perhaps some of the con, you know, other food sensitivity tests that are out there. Is this is the fit test, a food sensitivity test? I know we refer to it as a food inflammation test. What's the difference? What are the different clinical applications of this test versus some of the other tests? And why would somebody choose this over those tests?

That's a great question. And to your point, I think now versus maybe 20 years ago, there's some brilliant labs out there. So I think the wonderful thing about this space is I think it is growing really nicely, and there's lots of good companies out there. And so what I liked about our specific test and how I think it differs is when I met Brent, and then at that point, the N of three, the three providers we talked to, they're all saying, what we love about this test, James, is traditionally with food sensitivities, we've all looked at igg, and frankly, the knock on this area has been, it's just telling you what you're exposed to. But what Dr. Doval's test was rather than stopping at that point point. He then went on to look at the innate immune system and look at complement activation and look at the, the most prevalent mark, which is C3D and the most inflammatory. And so his idea was rather than just saying let's look at, you know, what you're exposed to, let's go on and do another screen, as it were, and say rather than stop there, let's look at actually which of those foods causing inflammation. And so what I loved about that was it's a real simplistic message of one thing which I loved was you're measuring the whole immune system versus just half of it. But also you've done a great job of looking at that innate immune system. So you eliminated what I would describe as the false positives and really zeroed in on a handful of foods, generally five to 10 foods. And one of the things I love about it, as I mentioned you earlier, I'm doing a dry January and exercising every day and kind of having as much water as part of that. I did our cardiovascular test, but I also ran the fit test. It's amazing how stable it is. You know, when I first did the test many years ago, it's five or six foods and today it remains five or six foods. So it's interesting that, you know, the stability and the reproducibility of the testing over a 12 year period in my case, in terms of running it. So those were some of the things I found really interesting and unique was that Dr. Dorval, his background was he was the guy who invented the first rapid HIV diagnostic. And so everything we did with the testing was really through an infectious disease lens. So a good example of that is we run 15 standards of controls to make sure that testing is not only highly accurate but reproducible. So again, I think that was some of the things that, you know, when I, when I looked at that, the space from afar was, you know, people worried about reproducibility. You were just telling people what they were consuming versus that underlying inflammatory response as well. So I think when you, when he kind of addressed it from a very scientific standpoint and so what we tried to do was how do we then kind of, I guess impart some of that knowledge to providers so that they can, you know, educate their, their patients. And I think that was the great thing was we have this great scientific base. Dr. Dval is amazing. He's, you know, his PhD is around complement medicine and so he can, he can speak for many hours on complement, which is amazing. But the reality is what we then had to do is say how do we take this really unique science? And then kind of re educate the population a bit about saying there's a real advantage of knowing what you're exposed to. But more importantly, if you take it to the next level, you're actually going to find out which foods are causing you inflammation. And that section is why we called it food inflammation test rather than just the C3D test, was to say how do we kind of make people understand what it is we're doing which differentiates us from I would say the normal test. And there's some great companies out there. And so one of the things I did was I ran an heavily well test and we came up with over 25 foods. When I ran the fit test, I came up with five. So it was a great way to illustrate to me as an individual, when you look at just the igg, you're going to get these false positives is how is how we describe them. Because you're looking at what you're exposed to versus the underlying innate immune system as well with the complement to say what's activating those that complement activation. It's these five or six trigger foods in my case versus the 25. And then when you start thinking about the world in those kind of numbers versus 25, you suddenly get patients nodding versus going, there's no way I can take out 25 foods from my diet. So you get compliance going up. So you get suddenly much better kind of clinical outcomes because the patient's not kind of crying BS a little bit to say, oh my gosh, what's going on with this? Because there's no way I can take out 25 foods from my diet. However, we didn't get there because James and a group of guys sat down and said 5 to 10 might be a good number. It was more we got there from having this double screen, which was the brilliance of Dr. Dauvel's idea of measuring, as I mentioned, the whole immune system versus just maybe the front end of it with the igg. And as I say, the companies that just do IG are brilliant companies. There's no knock on them. The limitation on them is it's that pathway versus how they're doing it.

Okay, so they are doing a great test, but on the wrong part of the immune system that gives us the information.

Yeah, exactly right. Just that front end versus then going on to say what's going on in the innate immune system. And so that's where this test I would say gives you a more specific answer than maybe just looking at what your exposure is.

The visual I'm getting is like a bouncer in front of a club and it's like one bouncer is rejecting everyone without actually screening them to see if they have weapons or drugs or you know, a knife or something like that. And the other one is doing a better job kind of screening to make sure that, okay, these people are the bad ones. And um, it might be a, it's certainly a smaller number of people or foods in this case that are causing those problems. So what I want to speak to my test and, and I'm just curious. We'll use myself as an example. So there's no like HIPAA rules or anything that we're violating. So when I get my test results back, there's two components to the test. I tested for 176 foods and then there was also a leaky gut test. And thankfully the leaky gut test came back all clear. But there were certain foods that showed up for me and one of them in particular was cow's milk and eggs. Those were the two highest for me. Cauliflower. And there was a few other things that I, that I didn't really eat. So that didn't affect me very much. But I'm curious as to. So the first thought that went through my head is when I eat these foods I don't really feel anything. And, and that's. So I'm glad I did this test because if I didn't do this test, I wouldn't know that these foods are causing a chronic low grade inflammatory response in body. What are some symptoms that somebody might have? Or do you get cases where somebody says aha, I knew this was it and this was causing my problem. Like how does, how does, how does it equate to clinical symptoms when people see those?

Yeah, I mean it's a great point. I mean generally because we're looking at that inflammatory response we see the test is, is. Is highly helpful for, you know, migraines, weight loss, joint pain, skin related issues in terms of, think of that third barrier. And it's interesting, the types of foods are very varied. I mean we had, without naming names, we had, we had one of the, one of the crew from A4N, Big Anti Aging group, very healthy individual, but was suffering from acne. And it turned out for that individual it was spinach that came up. And so when spinach came, she was very healthy, you know, very careful, she eliminated that and the back acne totally cleared up. And so I would argue that's, that's highly unusual because you'd say to your point, it's going to be eggs and milk and wheat. And then, you know, why do we bother testing for anything else? How did you come up with 176, James? That's kind of like you must have been stretching the point. But I guess that is an illustration from, for me of you never really know which food is going to be the trigger. But that in, in to you, to your earlier point, you know what the concept that anyone would be eating spinach and that would be bad for them is, is something that, you know, we could almost do another program on. It's like it's, it's, it's, it's crazy. But that was the thing that, and subsequently the only reason I found out that that was the food of interest for her because all her colleagues came to me at the next meeting we had and said we'd all like to get tested. And after about the fifth or sixth one, I said, just out of interest what's true? They said, well, one of our colleagues had the test and she had this issue and she identified this as an individual food that would do it. So I think the reason I kind of highlight the spinach one is really because sometimes it's obvious in terms it's a milk or wheat or dairy, but then sometimes it can be these, you know, these quite obscure things. And one of the other things that we do on the test which I think has been really helpful, is that we measure colorings and additives because, you know, regardless of how clean a lot of us try and live these days, you're going to get exposed to these colorings and additives. They're in processed foods that maybe we're all much better at kind of avoiding than we hope we are. They're increasingly in supplements and thirdly, they're in personal hygiene products. So you know, we look at benzoic acid and when we put it on, I thought, well, I guess we should have that on there. It turns out it's in shampoos, it's in washing powders. And we had, you know, there was a, again, a young child who was just below 10. He was very lethargic. He was a young boy. And the provider kind of came to me, said this was amazing, James. It turned out he was 4 plus for benzoic acid. They couldn't work out why he was lethargic. And if anyone's got an under 10 year old boy, they know that's not the normal State. And so after eight weeks they said it was remarkable, the turnaround. And they'd taken out benzoic acid so they changed washing powders, they changed shampoos and stuff like that. And so I think, although everyone would say well it's eggs, milk and wheat and we do that, there's probably not an elimination diet on the planet that would say well let's start with benzoic acid and then we'll move on to some of these other things. And so I think that's been in essence almost the fun part of the many parts of it are very gratifying in terms of the success stories of people coming up where they've had really life changing things. In terms of. We did a study on IBS patients again saw dramatic improvements there. And so I think it's almost the novelty value in some regards of some of the things that are coming up which are you get to a certain maybe burden within your system and it's as you say, it's a low grade inflammatory response but which is pushing people into whether it's the migraines again, that's another one where we've seen dramatic improvements. Where patients have had them for 10, 20 years and they've eliminated a handful of foods. And that's the interesting thing. Satchin is never 20 or 30. It's normally there's a handful of triggers and when they eliminate that, the providers will say this is incredible. James, you know, we've struggled with this patient for a long time and this has been a really game changer for us in terms of what's been going on in terms of their. And you hit it on the head. It's their inflammatory burden. That again you're probably an unusual case because you're in tune with your body much more than I would say the average patient. But a lot of them are putting up the symptoms. That is not shocking. It's probably the wrong phrase. But we end up living with stuff in terms of that is well above the norm. And sometimes what we find with our providers is make sure you do a symptom checklist and find out what are the symptoms or the norm that they're living with that hopefully by reducing that overall inflammatory burden via your diet will be helpful. And what we found is we're a direct to provider company and, and that's not a mistake. That's from my standpoint is food is so central to so many parts of your body that we want to make sure that that information is filtered through your provider so he or she can then Help what is going on because of the interlinks between everything that goes on with your body. So our view is, in many respects we've simplified the test down. You know, we don't say on the front that this was developed by the, you know, the HIV genius scientist, you know, and, and he's going to kind of talk to you for four hours on compliment. It's how do we keep it simple so the busy provider and the busy patient can understand it and move forward on their journey, whatever that might be from a healthcare perspective.

Yeah, I love that. You know, one thing about the report that was so nice is that it wasn't littered with all kinds of, you know, positive responses. It was very manageable to be able to look at it and be like, oh, I, I can do this. Certainly me being vegetarian, you know, cutting out cow's milk and, and eggs almost forces me to go pretty close to being vegan. But I'm glad that I found the answer right. And it's not, it's not about how I feel about it, it's what, how I can potentially feel by eliminating those foods that are again causing perhaps a low grade chronic inflammation. And I think I'm also guilty of maybe, you know, thinking that food only affects my digestion, right, or how I feel immediately, but there could be something going on that's adding to the allostatic load of inflammation in my joints or in my cardiovascular system or in my brain, or disrupting other aspects of my health that are subclinical, that I wouldn't know. And if you just keep doing that over and over and over again, it's gonna create a problem. Now, one thing you said earlier that kind of intrigued me, and I'm curious about this as well, is that you said you tested yourself six years ago, tested again, and you found that it was five foods. Were that, was it the same five foods or do these foods change over time?

Very, very similar. So it was eggs, milk, eggs, milk and dairy and wheat with a big three. And I always had something to do with crustaceans. It was, it's either been clam or lobster. So it's been interesting to see how they have been very, very stable over that time period. So as you can imagine, I'm a bundle of last come breakfast time. But it's, it's, it's one of those things where, you know, they've just been very stable and it's, you know, the lab manager almost laughing at me. They're like, you know, how do you fix your results, James? So they're always like, well, I don't do anything. It's like, it's just the way I. You know, the way it is. And so it's interesting. I. When I first bought the company, my triglycerides were. I'm gonna admit this, were nearly 500. And so I. Yeah, so. And I. And so I decided to take the test with my blood work at the same time as those five. Same five foods. I was really strict about taking out gluten eggs. I very rarely eat any. Any eggs anymore. And I took out dairy. And within six months, I went. I was. I saw my provider and they said, well, we can put you on a drug to reduce those triglycerides. And I said, look, triglyceride is all about lifestyle, so why. And diet. So why are you suggesting I shouldn't look at that first? And they're saying, well, yeah, no one really does that. So that we just put them on a drug. And I said, well, okay, let me try that and see how we go. And I got my triglycerism, triglycerides in six months, down to 100 from fiber by taking out those three foods. Because again, if you think of it, underlying triglycerides, inflammatory response, take out those sources. I dropped 15 pounds as well. So it was fun to see that the test worked on me as an individual and it improved my blood work as well by looking at doing those things of reducing inflammatory response. But again, it was three things. Everyone would say they're pretty major things. Eggs, milk, and wheat. But it was transformative for me as an individual to say I could control weight and kind of inflammation by focusing in on these results. And obviously when you do that, I was exercising more. But again, it becomes a virtuous circle, doesn't it? When you start losing weight or whatever your goal might be, then you start feeling better. And why would I want to go back to where I was or whatever it might have been? So it was certainly very helpful in terms of. As a. Just another way of doing it. Because I think one of the things that I know patients, and I hear it from providers as well, really like about this test, there's no judgment attached to it. So it wasn't like, you know, if you're positive, egg, milk, wheat, whatever it is, that doesn't. That's not a negative on you. Whereas, you know, I think for some patients, they feel a bit browbeaten when I say, well, your triglycerides are off the charts. We're going to have to do this for You. And they're like, oh, my God. Another doctor telling me how bad I am was. This one's like, it's almost. You're taking. You're giving your patients the ability to take control of their health and do some meaningful things with things they understand. Because at the time, even I knew what 500 triglyceride was. But most patients would go, is that good or bad, Doc? And why would they know what that is? And so I think it's one of the nice things with the test. It's something that every patient understands.

Food.

And they know we all have different relationships with it. That's granted, no issue there, but at least that you feel like you can control that and you can do something meaningful about it. And I think that's where it resonates a lot more with the patient than saying, okay, how do you kind of bring down some of your blood work?

Yeah. Such a great point. I think that, you know, knowing what to do instead of just knowing what's wrong is. Is a much more powerful position to be in. And especially if you go to the doctor and they say these numbers are off, well, that doesn't mean a whole lot to the average person.

Yeah.

And they may not know, what is that supposed to feel like, if that's off. Right. Because I don't. I don't know what high triglycerides feels like, but. So they may not even associate it to a discomfort or a pain or a dysfunction in their body. They just may incidentally discover that this is the case. And I love that you took the bull by the horns and made the lifestyle changes and, you know, took some of your own medicine, did the test Right. Made the. Made the adjustments and experienced the benefits. And. And it's. It's amazing to see that, you know, there's a few people that come to mind that I think clinicians should take into consideration in running this lab. If not everybody. I mean, I think that everyone should have this test done because food is the thing people are most curious about. Even though it's one part of the equation, it's certainly a big part of the health healing equation. Certainly I think diabetics would benefit from this. It seems that autoimmune patients would benefit. Cognitive decline patients, dementia patients would probably benefit. Who else do you think would be a good candidate? You said IBS and digestive issue patients. Certainly. Is there anyone else that kind of jumps out at you that, you know, if our. If a clinician's listening to this, they're probably thinking of a. Of A tricky case that they have that should have this test done.

Yeah, I mean, you touched on the cognitive. And we've seen a growing, obviously, you know, amount of evidence showing leaky gut, leaky brain. And so we've been fortunate. We've had, how I would describe it as traditionally, it used to be leaky gut leading to leaky brain. We're now hearing from some leading psychiatrists who. So I would say the leaky gut is leading down to the leaky or, sorry, the leaky brain is coming back to the leaky gut. And so what I found fascinating in the last 12 years is the first clinical study we did. The leading symptoms were anxiety, depression, and brain fog. And I guess 10, 12 years ago, we didn't have the courage of our convictions to say, isn't that amazing that you've got the links between gut health and brain health staring us in the face? I think at that point we were concerned we'd be taken out in a. On a gurney, in a white coat for kind of making such a rash claim. Today, I think that's more mainstream. And as I said, it's been really fascinating for me. And we've got a number of gentlemen who've Talked for us, Dr. Bruce Kerr being one of them, who runs psychiatry, for example, he uses the test, and he routinely has a nutritionist on his. On his team working with his patients. And so it's been fascinating me to see, you know, where. To your point, where food is so central, that whole, you know, one of the reasons why we added our gut barrier panel was, you know, it's. It's a bit of a chicken and egg, isn't it? What came first? You know, maybe not chicken egg, because you and I can't eat eggs, but chicken and egg, in terms of, you know, which came first, Was it leaky gut or was it food inflammation? And so that was one of the reasons we kind of combined those things together. Because when I first got involved with this, we, you know, I got to New Hampshire and we have. We had some fantastic providers up there, nutritionists, chiropractors, naturopaths, and some will say, james, look, we love the fact you've got this patented test. It's eliminating those false positives. It's really getting to the root cause of this inflammation. But some would say, look, we don't run food sensitivity tests because we think the patient has leaky gut. So I think what I would hope now is in their defense, there wasn't a good test out there 12 years ago. So I think now, by combining those two areas, we're giving you a really good indication of if you've got an inflamed patient. And that's why I was going to slightly hesitant in naming a group of patients. I'd argue probably 95% of the patients, most of you of the providers listening see, are inflamed. So this is a great way to try and get through a slightly different pathway of what might be causing some of that underlying inflammation. As we're saying, how do we help bring down that burden of inflammation in a lot of, a lot of patients to try and make them feel a bit more normal, whatever normal is, but you know, at least to try and help bring that, that burden down. So I think if you've got an inflamed patient and you're struggling with them, then this is a great way because it's something that gives that patient a route into seeing how they can take take control of their own health versus necessarily always having a provider as their crutch in terms of taking them on their journey.

I love that. You know, a couple things come to mind as, as we're having this conversation. One is I've seen lab tests compare cooked versus uncooked foods and I'm curious if you have any commentary or insights on that, if that, if that makes a difference or not. The raw food versus the cooked food. Yeah.

So we measure both and I think we know. So we do a few of them which are raw and some of them are cooked. What I haven't seen yet is the next stage of that piece of work that says, okay, when I, if you run them both together, do you have a different clinical outcome? Absolutely. If you cook something, you're going to denature the protein. You know, we all get that. But the reality is from a clinical perspective, we've got a mixture on the plate on, on our ELISA plates that we, that we've developed the testing on and we're seeing some amazing clinical outcomes with a combination of them versus saying it's all cooked or it's all raw. The best example I can give you, we just done a study in Chengdu, which is about three hours outside of Beijing. We sent them some plates, they're running the test over there in China. We've got a lab in Beijing doing it as well, which shows, I think, how robust the test is. They took 75 patients and basically took all comers. So whether it was skin related brain fog, classical gut related issues, a range of patients who were in that kind of 74 they did a three month elimination diet and 82% of those patients saw an improvement from running the test. And so it was really good for me to see that, you know, how robust this test is being run in a separate lab. Because I think sometimes again with some labs they say, well, this is a really good test. We're going to run the clinical study, we're going to write the paper and then we're going to publish it. The great thing for me is all we did was we made the plates and then they sent me the report back saying this is what we saw. And it was completely black hole in terms of our control of what happened. So I love that because that shows how robust our testing is. Rather than going, it works beautifully in a very thematically sealed world of me having total control of it, which as we know, for any patient, that's not reality. So it's much better to have it, you know, from a test, to have everything thrown at it, to kind of make sure that it's robust in many people's hands. And we see that in terms of the kind of the clinical outcomes. And again, we, you know, we do the mindset, we do the A4MS. And IFM type music. And one of the great things to me is, and everyone goes, how come as the owner, you still turn up for all these meetings? It's so gratifying to have our providers come up and tell me about the success stories they've had. And more importantly, as any business owner, as anyone trying to grow, finding out what we can do better. And so I think that's one of the great things about those meetings is, you know, and one of the, you know, the real problems with COVID is that community was lost. And so, and that's where I certainly applaud a 4M. They were the first ones to understand the importance of community and get direct face to face. And I think IFM are now, getting there now as well, which is fantastic. So that community and sense of changing and swapping ideas, a bit like we're doing now, that's the oxygen, I think, for the functional medicine world.

I love it. Let's talk some brass tacks. One of them being logistics of administering the test, getting the test kits into a practitioner's office. So walk us through that. So if a practitioner is listening to this right now and they're saying, man, I need to get this test for myself. And then, you know, of course, their patients and clients and family members, what would that process look like? And maybe you could walk us through what the testing process looks like, what the turnaround times are like and that'll give us a much clearer indication of how to implement this into our practices.

Perfect. Well, one of the nice things is it's a finger stick. So again, you know, I'm sure there's a, there's a hole somewhere in the world with full of phlebotomy kits that never made it to the phlebotomist. So the nice thing here is it's something that we can drop ship to your patient or you can carry in the office. And so we control, we can do all that drop shipping for you. So again if you're virtual or you're in office and we can kind of cope with both of those, of those scenarios and to sign up all you need to do is go to infobmo diagnostics.com and then just mention Sachin's name that you, that you heard about us on there. We'll send out a new account form. It's a simple one page document. You fill that out and then we, the kits are free. So we can then send you kits directly for you in the office or as I mentioned, we can arrange them to be drop shipped to your patients with the patient. We have it so that the patient can come onto our website and order the kits but they have to have a CDASH number which is linked to you, the provider. So again, everything we do is very much provider centric. So we want the provider to be center of all of these decisions that any patient makes. And so if you've got the kits in the office, as I say, it's a simple finger stick, there's an easy video to watch or if we send it to the patient, there's a finger stick and we put two in for the patient. If we send it directly to their homes, they mail it in and for the patient tests, we even give them a stamp stressed envelope. So as long as they can find their mailbox they should be in good shape. And then the kit comes back to us and seven to ten business days later we'll upload it into a thing called box.com so you can access the results. So as I say, the patient, we don't send the results the patient, we only send them to the provider and then the provider can then go over those results with the patient. But what we do for the patient 14 days after we've sent the results to the provider is we, we have an app so that way they can have their results on their phone. And the other thing that we provide with all the results is a meal plan. So again, I'm sure all you providers are familiar with the first food sensory test you did. The patient goes, oh my gosh, what can I eat, doc? And you guys go, oh, that's a really good question. I've now got to spend some time on a meal plan. So we provide that for you. So we've got a team of meal planners that do that and they're individualized per patient. So the sequence is really sample comes back seven to 10 days later, you get the results, we give you 14 days. And if you want that to be longer, we can adjust it so the app comes to the patient a longer time period. But the great thing with the app is from a compliance standpoint, again, which is key to what we do, is that the patient has it on their phone. As we all know, all your patients, one thing they all have in common around the world is they all have a cell phone. And so the fact that their results are on their phone, it means that they will, you know, the compliance slightly go up. The other great thing about that app is patients love to share their friends or bore their friends. Sometimes people say with about the foods they can't eat. And so they bring out their phone and they say, I saw Sachin had amazing results. I feel so much better. Let me show you the app and I'll show you my results. It'll be cool to see how you. How yours differ type thing. And it's not uncommon for one family member to get the test done. And then, you know, you as a provider, you'll get a call going, all my family need to get tested. And so that's a very frequent call that I hear from my provider. They go, well, what do I do? I said, well, I get them a test probably. So again, it's one of the nice things because I know a lot of providers, marketing is probably low on their list of things that they love to do. So without really doing anything, this app is really one of your great tools of marketing your practice to not only your patients, but also their friends and family, which can sometimes be a challenge. So that's generally how it works. And then with the what we now developed with the gut barrier panel, so we talked about the meal plan with the food sensitivity test. If anything's elevated on the gut barrier panel, then we've also got a number of protocols. We set up with a number of leading supplement companies like the likes of Nutridyne, Biotics Designs for Health. And we've also partnered with Fullscript So if you've got a fullscript account, you can click on that and then we can get you the supplements through there. So I am unashamedly not a supplement expert. So what we wanted to do was go out to some of the leading supplement brands and get them to develop supplement protocols. So from my standpoint, we can be arm's length, agnostic, whatever you want to phrase you want to use to make sure we give you some options. If you've got a better plan of how to do that, that's fantastic. But again, we put on our report for the gut barrier panel. If any of the eight markers are elevated, then, you know, go on a good gut healing protocol and hopefully from a provider standpoint that helps kind of sometimes bridge a difficult conversation with a patient who goes, oh my God, why have I got to go on these supplements? Well, we did the, we ran this, we ran the test and on the bottom of that report it said these, you know, we should, we should go on some supplements to make sure we can heal the gut. And so that's one of the other things that we've tried to do. So we've tried to make it very straightforward for providers. Easy to sign up, easy access to the kit. So again, we're not trying to make sure that any upfront payments on any of these things and then the payment types in one of either ways. We either bill you directly or we can bill the patient directly. So again, we want to keep it nice and easy, transparent and walk you and the patient through it in a very manageable way. And Sachin's had the ability to do that. And so again, I don't know. How did you find that process, Sachin?

Oh, it was amazing. Amazing. A big thing for me is turnaround time and when I got my lab results back, it was quick. I have the results on my app on my phone, which makes it easy to shop when you're going out. If you forget something like it's all in there, you can show it to your server if you have any, if they have any questions like, hey, these are the foods or ingredients I need to be conscientious of. And yeah, it's been a very positive experience for us so far. And the customer service you guys provide is exceptional. So very much.

Our other secret weapon is Dr. Val, who basically is available, I'm not going to say 24 7, but she's definitely very available in terms of, for when you run your first test on yourself or on one of your patients. She can review those results with You. She's been running the test for kind of 12 years in her practice. So again, she comes with a very practical experience of how you implement it in your practice. And so again, she's got a wealth of experience. And so again, what I wanted to do in that role is have someone who had the experience of running the test because again, what you know is typically, you know, it's as that the phrase of, you know, the barbarians of the gate, you've got to report, how on earth do I interpret it? Dr. Val's there to kind of help answer some of those questions in terms of make sure you feel comfortable that you've got that support, not only in terms of the kind of nuts and bolts, as Sachin mentioned, but also in terms of the clinical interpretation. And she's a naturopath and got many years of experience.

Amazing. I love it. Thank you so, so much, James. This has been very enlightening and I've really enjoyed our time together. And you've just been exceptional from the moment I've met you. So I appreciate everything that you're doing to make our lives better as clinicians. We will be including in the show notes and, you know, any of the links that you see that does include the infobmodiagnostics.com that's where people can go send an email, indicate that they're interested in getting registered, and they can also go Learn more at kbmodiagnostics.com to learn more about the testing, more about the lab. And is there a place that they can go there to download the application form or do you want them to send the email?

There's places on the front page of the website as well. So again, do it on the website or send us an email, whatever is easiest for you. Feel free to reach out and we'll make sure we respond.

Wonderful. Well, thank you so, so much. And here's to a dry January for you.

Thank you.

Here's to avoiding eggs for both of us. And here's to amazing health and wholeness to everyone listening. Thank you so much.

Well, thank you so much for your time, Sachin. Much appreciated.