Caregiving & Planning

intimate conversations with today's thought leaders, changemakers, and disruptors to bring you tools, strategies, and insightful perspectives on personal and business growth, revealing the humanness of success and challenge. For those that are new to the show, I'm Sally A. Curtis. I'm a content repurposing whiz, and we work with brilliant individuals to help them leverage their content to engage their audience Through the power of visuals. We provide a done-for-you service that amplifies your impact because you stand out, you connect deeply with your audience, your message is heard, and you reach more people with ease. Now, you may remember these 2 lovely ladies, and yes, it is an absolute repeat today. What we're going to be talking about is care planning. In essence, we plan for birth, but We want to talk about let's plan for caring and for death. Now, the reason we're doing a rerun is because I messed up the sound last time, and it's a really, really important message to me for these ladies to be able to share with the world. So I would love you to re-welcome to the show both Suzanne and Janice. Welcome. Thank you. Now, as, as we're going to be talking about today, I think it's really, really important important and imperative that we do start to have these conversations with our families as it relates to caring for them when they're unwell, etc., as well as some of that pre-planning for, you know, the passing or their end of life. So can I ask you firstly if you can each share a little bit of your backstory to give the audience a bit of context of how you've come to sort of being on this quest and this level of service that you offer?

Okay.

I'm here.

Oh, I'm, I'm Janice Lombardo. I am in Northeast Ohio in the US, and I have been a caregiver for over 20 years. I'm also a stage 4 cancer survivor. And when I was taking care of my mom for 8 years during her cancer journey, There were so many things that I did not know. My primary focus was keeping her alive, and so we never ever had those end-of-life discussions. That wasn't even in my purview. Mm-hmm. And when things with her health declined rapidly, there was a lot of chaos and a lot of scrambling, and planning her funeral while she was actively dying is not something I would ever recommend or want to see anyone to go through. So after she passed, I made sure that I learned what else I could do because I still have senior family members that I care for. And so that was one of my, you know, big things to get involved in. And becoming an end-of-life doula, I found out during the pandemic, was something I could do. So I have taken it, run with it, trailblazed with it, and here I am with Sally and Suzanne today.

Yeah, beautiful. Thank you. Um, over to you, Suzanne.

Okay, thanks so much. So I'm Suzanne White, founder of Caregiver Warrior, and, um, I started Caregiver Warrior and my blog and website because I too was a caregiver and Just found that there was so little information out there for me to lean on, you know, and I understood that I— and for me, information was really important. So I made a commitment and promised that I would start helping one caregiver at a time to see if we could ease the stress of the journey. And recently, I had to have brain surgery rather unexpectedly. So I really understand from Firsthand, personally, on the other side as a patient, which has been really good for me, how important the conversations are with family and friends about end-of-life choices and decisions and having all your ducks in a row, so to speak. It was really important to me and to give me a sense of peace before I went under, you know, rather extensive surgery. So the importance of it was really driven home to me. So I love this conversation because I think, you know, it just makes the patient and the caregiver so much more— it just takes so much stress off us. You know, when we can have this conversation about, hey, what happens if?

Yeah, yeah. And it really is a— it's a brave conversation to have, to start that conversation, because it's one of those things that gets pushed, pushed to the side, you never quite get around to doing, let alone having the ducks all lined up when you talked about having the ducks lined up. It's sort of like, I haven't even got the ducks in the farmyard, let alone in a room. And isn't that the case for most of us? We're just living life, we're busy. And I can only imagine the stress of, you know, leaving my son, my son, for example, if something was to happen to me and, you know, working out what he needs to do with me, let alone the business and the house and, you know, the other family members and all those sorts of things. It's It would be an incredibly stressful time if it was to happen suddenly. Yes, it's still stressful if it's a little bit more elongated, if there's been unwell— if they've been unwell. But by gosh, what a great conversation to have. So I'm going to ask you from both of your experiences, how do you find people start that difficult conversation? What are the pitfalls? What are the opportunities? How can you bring those conversations? up and start to make it easier from a family perspective or an individual perspective?

Okay. In my own family, I have come to learn that having these discussions oftentimes is a matter of, well, I've been thinking about my own situation and I've been planning my own situation. And this is what I decided, and what would you like to talk about? Maybe we need to make some things, put some things in writing, because that's the thing. You can talk, but if you don't have this information in writing so that it's a guideline to follow, then it's not as effective because memories don't always last, because these are living documents. Yeah. And they can change because of a life event. I really recommend getting together over dinner, over dessert, over something where it makes it a little more normal. And you're talking about something that will someday happen. This is not a what-if, this is a when. Mm-hmm. And I've also discovered that working with my own family members is a lot more challenging than working with people outside of my family, because if you have someone who is not willing to be honest and open and forthright, and they know how to shut you down, you really have no recourse. And so for some family members, I've taken it upon myself to go ahead and just start a preliminary checklist of my own so that I am not caught off guard. Um, and I really recommend that if you are thinking about doing this, start with yourself and then work your way towards your family members, as long as there is no, uh, health crisis or anything like that. So that's how I would approach the beginning stages of it.

That's right.

And then if you need help, that's why I'm here. I am part of that I'm like Sweden. I don't have any way, shape, or form anything to do with it. I'm here to help you facilitate. So that's one of the things that I really like to emphasize when I meet different people who are, you know, interested in what do I do so that they don't feel so overwhelmed because one of my giveaways is 10 pages long. So, and just so you're also aware, directive plans are more of the legal part. Of your final wishes. Final wishes are things like where do you want to die, how do you want to be remembered, what do you want done with your body, do you want a celebration of life or a traditional funeral. Those are final wishes, not like your directive plans, which is your will, your powers of attorney, your living will, and those types of documentation. But all that documentation is important to have Moving forward.

Yeah.

And I think the takeaway from that, all of that, and I'm in total agreement, is, you know, if you have a family member that's giving you a hard time, you know, my mom, my mom was very— she was actually really good at planning a lot of stuff, taking care of business. But when it, when it came to having me being involved in helping her take care of her business, that was a little more difficult. And I think, you know, a really good takeaway is, you know, getting a third party or someone outside of the family, a professional that you can bring in that you don't, you know, because there's family baggage.

Mm-hmm.

You know, I mean, we all have it. No matter how good the family is, there's always opportunities for something, you know, to be brought up from the past that perhaps, you know, makes it more difficult to move forward. And I think that having someone who is more an objective party to people who are more stubborn and proud and, you know, don't want to necessarily lean on somebody younger or their children is a really good point. And it helped me a little bit with my parents, even though, as I said, my mom was great. But, you know, I was able to bring in some other professionals to sort of help them move along, and they didn't necessarily feel like it was coming from me.

Yeah.

Right.

Do you find that it actually helps? I'm sort of hearing— so I want to ask the question is, do you find bringing in that third party helps to remove the emotion? I'm going to sort of say the family emotions. Does it help to mitigate a lot of those sort of, you know, those rises that we have when we're with family members around heated instances? It helps to not— as you said, I think the word you used at one point, Janice was normalizing it. And I think there's, you know, you're normalizing it over food and having a, you know, a conversation like you would over food. But you're also normalizing it by bringing in that third party to sort of mitigate that heated emotion. Would that be right from your perspectives?

Absolutely. I think that it's so important to have a mediator. And as an end-of-life doula, I know the process, and I can guide folks through it without the drama.

Mm-hmm.

And so, um, the thing is that when you have a family, not everybody lives in the same town. So you might be doing this over a Zoom conversation, or you might be doing this with people and a Zoom conversation, because those are the kinds of things in order to get everyone on the same page you have to do. Um, but then you also will have family members who will refuse to participate in that planning and then turn around when things are happening and expect to run the show. So that's also another part of the process where, how do you politely say, okay, well, we've all made this decision and sorry, you can't come in at the last minute and change your mind.

Mm-hmm.

This is not up for debate. This is what this, you know, person wanted. This was their wish. This is their life, their decisions, and we all have to respect that.

Yeah, yeah.

I also feel too that in just this whole process, you know, especially with my parents and my sister-in-law, that, you know, I would approach the subject more multiple times, you know, that it wasn't, you know, it's not a cut-and-dry case. And so often, and I think that having patience and being able to tell myself, you know, we're not getting anywhere right now. You know, maybe we're moving a little forward, um, but, you know, drop it for now. You have to read the room a little bit. Mm-hmm. Um, it's really important to be able to read the room. And, and, and I think caregivers have a tendency, you know, to want to fix everything right away, you know what I mean? And, and, and that's wonderful, and I honor that. But we also, you know, there's a place and a time And it's okay. And you can, you know, drop it and pick it up in 2 days, you know. Mm-hmm. You know, and I even found with myself, I mean, that I, you know, because I'm my personal— as a patient, I wanted everything done. I wanted everything signed. I wanted everybody to understand. I wanted to have the conversation. I wanted to have everything, you know. And, and, and people were like, oh, you're not gonna die. And I said, well, yeah, but I could. So I want to, you know what I mean? So I learned You know, to just sort of back off a little bit, um, you know, and, and, and maybe not, and not have a complete conversation and resolve everything all at once, you know. I think, I think you kind of, you know, take, take a couple bites of the enchilada and not have to eat the whole thing.

Yeah, it's a process.

Yeah, and I think I'd love what you've said both there around that timing thing because I think we're all very similar in that we, you know, get stuff done and we're reasonably fast-paced and we've got that, you know, that structured approach to life as a collective. But not everybody in our life is like that. And where we might get something done in one sitting because we're going to get it done, the other people, as you've expressed, when someone says, oh, but you're not going to die, you know, they're not ready to have that conversation. So it is understanding other people's timings and being appreciative of that and just knowing, you know, that you do have that opportunity to, you know, drop a little— drop some seeds and let them grow a little bit and continue the conversation and then continue the conversation till you get to the, I suppose, the final outcome. But sometimes that might take a little bit of time. And it's understanding that everybody's got a different pace to what we may have and a different level of— Acceptance of what words you're going to use and how you're going to express yourself as well. Yeah. Thank you. And so, Suzanne, can I ask you a little bit too, as a little bit more from you as it relates to what happens to somebody when they've been thrown into that caregiving scenario that's become quite sudden, without a lot of the conversations along the way? So that's was part of your example. And it's obviously what you're helping caregivers understand of, you know, looking after themselves in this process, particularly when they get thrown in the deep end, so to speak.

Yes, you know, I mean, I recently looked— just looked at my body of work and the things that I'm trying to say. And basically, I'm realizing that I say it 50 million different ways. But my message basically is, it's okay no matter what you're feeling, it's okay. And be kind to yourself around it. I mean, it's that— that's basically the message that, that we're all, you know, we're all completely different. And we're all on different paths. But it's the same journey. I mean, we're helping other people walk home. And it's, it's just, you know, when we come to it quickly, we want to make it all better. We want to fix everything. And we want to be perfect. And, um, you know, we're doing a great job. And, you know, these, these conversations are difficult. There's a lot of emotion around all of this stuff. It's, you know, there's a stigma to it. Um, you know, people are sick and, and, and like I said, they're walking home and, you know, we want to make it all okay. And, and it's, you know, it is okay. Well, we're going to have big feelings around it, and it's challenging. So—

And it's messy.

It's messy, you know, and, and, and, and, and it's good that it's messy because it's allowing us to learn and grow and, and, you know, communicate with people and share things with people and, you know, be authentic. And I mean, there's a lot of opportunity, um, but it's big and it's hard. So we just have to know that it's, it's okay To have, you know, big feelings around it and just to be really kind to ourselves and then to everybody else.

Brilliantly said. And I think that's— that comes into that being kind to ourselves is understanding that there's different— that there is going to be differences. We're all different. The conversations are going to be different for all of us. The emotions are going to be different for all of us. The perspectives can be very, very different to what we believe somebody has said and written in their documentation. I remember having a conversation with my family around my father and he had some very specific instructions. But because people had their own different feelings and emotions, they would skew it or stretch it to be over in that version. But whereas Dad's might have been over here type thing and it was like, well, no, where do we bring this? How do we get this to what Dad wants? Because he's actually said this and understanding that, you know, a family member might want to skew it one way and another family member might want to skew it the other way because we, you know, as my son says, it's just marketing. We can all make a sentence skewed to our way of thinking if we stack enough evidence and provide all those sorts of things. So we, we can, we can create conversations versus starting with the real conversation of what the actual family member wanted and understanding that, yes, we might have different perspectives of how we interpret that. But let's look at the person that's actually provided the instruction and how they are wanting it interpreted. I think it's a really strong message.

And one of the other things with that message Sally, that we need to make sure that we're listening.

Mm-hmm.

Because when you have more than one personality trying to interpret what the individual wants, there really isn't that much to interpret. What we are needing to do is to listen. What we need to do is to take that step back And to just breathe and to let that individual answer a question. And they may change their mind 6 times, which you have to live with because this is their documentation, it's their life. And it's so important to be able to have that, take the emotion out of it. Mm-hmm. Take that emotion out of it. Plus, if you're going to have someone be your powers of attorney or, you know, any other thing that has to do with financials or, you know, your living will or whatever, always have a backup. Don't just leave one person in charge. Make it a team effort.

Yeah.

Because then that way it could eliminate a lot of chaos and misunderstanding. That's something that I really believe in very strongly, that you need to have more than one person be involved and a responsible party. And as far as Suzanne was talking about self-care, get into some self-care rituals. Yeah. Uh, you know, make sure that you eat well, make sure that you get a little bit of exercise, even if it's to walk outside and do a primal scream for 3 seconds. Make sure that, you know, you bathe and, you know, brush your teeth. And if you need to just You know, sit in a chair and vegetate and do nothing for 20 minutes, do it. I was thrust into a caregiver's role for my mom. I also was raising 2 school-aged children. And after a couple of years, my health was declining because of all the stress I was under trying to juggle all of that. And it's not good when you go to a doctor for help and you explain to them what you're dealing with and that you really could use some help, and all they do is look at you and say, well, you just need to stop burning the candle at both ends. Really? You're a freaking healthcare professional and that's your sage advice to me, the overwhelmed caregiver? Not happy with that. But that is not an uncommon situation.

Yeah, very normal.

That many caregivers out there have experienced this. Or patients.

Yes,

I'm on the patient side as well. And

that's the time when you sort of say fire the doctor, you know. I mean, it's, you know, if it's, you know, I have a— there's a very big pet peeve of mine where, you know, if you can, because you can't always do it, if you can though, get rid of a doctor. If you're not getting the answers you want, the support you want, the care you want, next. Next.

I've done it.

I've had to get rid of doctors, and man, the people that replaced them were brilliant. It's amazing that you create this vacuum and this angel drops down from Earth. And, and again, you know, due to the healthcare system or due to, due to your insurance or due to location or geography or whatever, there's not— you can't always do that. So then there's other steps to sort of, you know, bite the bullet and try to have a conversation with someone and say, hey, I'm not getting what I need here. You know, but if you can switch doctors because you, you know, you need— you deserve to have your questions answered and to get support. They're healers. It's a business. They work for you. They are your employee. You pay them.

I think you also have to self-advocate. So go ahead.

Yeah, no, I was just going to say, and that, that ties into what my— what the thought that just popped into my head, and I think that's where it's so important to have a community, which I know you've, you've both are advocates of around you while you're going through this stuff. A, in my world, to keep me on track to, you know, to shine the light on me when I'm not doing what I'm telling everybody else to do. So I think it's very important to have community to hold us accountable to ourselves. But it's also to get feedback and that insight and referrals or suggestions or help, help you advocate what you need to advocate for you. So I'd love you to, to explore and share some of the insights around the community and how you help the community and how the community is helping you through both of your journeys?

Oh, obviously friends. Local, local church was also instrumental in helping my parents provide meals at the last year of her life. Um, I'm part of 2 different organizations that focus on, uh, businesses that care for the elderly. And so partnering with different organizations to be able to provide the service, to let people know what an end-of-life doula is and what an end-of-life doula is not. Awesome. I am also a certified Willow end-of-life educator. And so I can give presentations to all different kinds of groups to help educate and to make things less scary.

Yeah.

We have not had enough education around end of life, and it is so needed. And so those are some of the things as a caregiver, as an end-of-life doula, that I work through within the community and get support and provide support for.

Yeah, beautiful. Suzanne?

Yeah, I, I know, I think the word community is, is, you know, a really key word, you know. And I think you have to— and it's wonderful because, you know, education and information and research is great. So I mean, it's really wonderful that you're doing that for your community. And because I, you know, anytime I can get information, I feel more powerful. I mean, yes, you know, information is power to me. It's my personality. And, but, you know, getting a team around you and getting a community around you and plugging into a community. You know, I, you know, I was doing, you know, I had therapy, I had a 12-step program, I had other caregivers that I was talking to, I had friends of my parents, I had my parents' church, I had, you know, a spiritual community I was involved in. You know, I, you know, I had everything I possibly could be 'Cause if I would pick up the phone to call someone and they weren't there, I could switch to something else or add other people in. I mean, you know, getting some— just having support and making sure you allow yourself to have that support. Yeah. And going for it is extremely important. And I had to learn that. I had a burnout very early on and made a phone call to someone who was a caregiver who completely changed my day and my life, you know what I mean? And, and there, and, and I learned my lesson. I went, oh, I get it, pick the phone up. Wow, you know, like, you know, ask for help, which was, you know, a new thing for me.

Yeah.

You know, that's why caregiving was such a great experience for me because it just made me a much better me.

Yeah.

Um, but yeah, I think that the most important thing you can do and you deserve to do, it's all about deserving, is You deserve to have people around who care for you and support you. And if people— and if there are people that don't, bye.

Yeah,

you know, so you have to make sure you surround yourself and get education and talk to people.

Yeah,

um, that can give you, you know, more information because it really does soothe your soul.

Yeah, beautifully said. And I think that was, uh, for me, uh, why, you know, I obviously wanted to have this conversation again, but why conversation and sharing wisdom to me is, is, you know, why I do what I do, regardless of what part of the business it is. That shared wisdom empowers us all, and that shared wisdom helps us move through life as better people with better resources. But so often, if I look at my life and different conversations I've had with different people that have had burnout in different forms or, you know, massive amounts of overwhelm, it's generally because we've sat in isolation. We've not shared what's going on with other people. And by not sharing, you know, because we're trying to be tough and we, you know, we're handling everything and we're, you know, we're super— we think we're super people. But with that shared conversation, you do find the wisdom and the insights of other people's experiences, who else can be a resource for you. And it does give— it does lighten the load, if that's the right term. It just gives, you know, shared wisdom. It does help to lighten the load. And that's why I think it's so important to have those educational conversations that you're doing so we can have more empowered, I suppose, discussions and information and understanding of where we can go as individuals that we don't have to be isolated. And I think my message today would be, you know, if you're going through trying to plan something for yourself or plan something for— and caring for somebody else, you don't have to do it in isolation, either as a family unit or as the individual within that unit. I think that the ability to share, to listen, and to Utilize resources becomes incredibly important for your own, for your own sanity.

Well, I don't know if any of you had had this experience, but I know for me, when I was sick, people that I thought I was going to be able to count on disappeared, and other people who I only barely knew stepped up and were right there for me. And I was so grateful that that was the case, and I have a feeling that that's something that's more typical than not.

Mm-hmm.

And also, um, just walking the caregiver's path, unfortunately not everyone has, um, resources available to them. And those who are in a family unit where you might be the oldest daughter Or the only daughter. Um, oftentimes women, like almost 75% according to ARP and PEW research, say that they're— women are the caregivers. And it is a matter not necessarily of free will, but it's an obligation or an expectation that you end up doing that. Yeah. And so we as women have found ways to support each other.

Yeah.

And so, I mean, I know that there are a lot of guys and gentlemen out there who are caring for family members, and I applaud everyone who goes through this path, but unfortunately it seems that women are oftentimes put into this role and we're the ones giving more sacrifice to it rather than having the choice. So I just want to throw that out there, that that is actually part of our reality at this point, and it really needs to change. And through education and through making sure that everybody is taught this is something that is gender neutral. You are not— just because you're a woman is not your job to take this on. Mm-hmm. You should be able to share the wealth with your siblings or other family members. No matter what gender they are.

What the scenario is. Yeah, very true. And Suzanne, was that a similar scenario for you, that there was an expectation? I know with— sorry, I'll just add to that. I know with my family, I remember sitting around the table as a family very in the very early days, and one of our family members going, haha, that's going to end with you. And, you know, and that, you know, yes, it was joking and all the rest of it. But the bottom line was that was the expectation. And that's, you know, that's normal family dynamics. But, you know, through the education that you're sharing and the conversations that we're having, we can again normalise something. So it becomes more a collective and it's not, you know, that's your job or that's my job and all those sorts of things. So Suzanne, what was your experience around that?

You know, I mean, I'm sort of an anomaly in that, you know, my sister and I are extraordinarily close. And she was an extraordinary backup for me. But geographically, I mean, I'm the big sister, right? So, um, you know, and geographically I was closest to my parents. So I just— and my personality, you know, I mean, not that she, you know, but bam, I was right there.

Yeah.

Um, and, and I, and I did pick it up. And, and, and, and just to speak quickly, you know, and I— and it is interesting who shows up and who doesn't. And my sister actually was having a hard time because she felt really guilty because I was doing everything. And I kept saying— she goes, you know what? I said, listen, there will be a day when I call you and I'm going to ask you, you know, I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna call you and I'm gonna say, get here now. And absolutely sure enough, that's exactly what happened. Um, she was on the next plane and, and she came in and she stayed for 6 weeks. And my parents died within 7 weeks of each other. Yeah. Um, so needless to say, it was, it was a pretty interesting interesting time. But so I was really lucky with that. However, um, and she supported me with everything I do. She never questioned anything. Mm-hmm. However, for me, you know, I, I needed to have people on the ground, um, supporting me where my parents were because we were 90 miles away. Um, so I had a team right around my parents, um, and I, I worked really hard at getting that team put together. And I made sure that I had caregivers that I could call and therapists that I could go to. You know, you have to take care of yourself. It wasn't going to happen without me. I could see that. I could finally see when I had to make that one phone call, somebody did help me, that it was important for me to make— take the first move and pick the phone up.

Yeah.

You know, I had to get out of this, I can do it myself. Yeah. No, nobody, nobody said I had to do it myself. I said I had to do it. You know what I mean? I mean, no one was saying, Suzanne, you have to do this all alone. No, I was like, I can do this, I can handle it, it's okay. You know, I'm a bad caregiver. But no, you know, we're not bad caregivers. We reach out and we have people around who support us. Yeah. You know, and I always tell people, you know, like, don't wait for the caregiver to ask you. Like, you know, if they're stubborn like me, say, hey, you know, I'll just bring dinner over.

Yes, like, it can— and it can be simple, can't it? And So, yeah, you know, gracious.

Here's a lasagna, you know, see ya. I mean, you know, that's, you know what I mean? Or, or, hey, I have a half an hour this afternoon, I'm gonna come over and hang out with Mom, you want to do something? Um, you know, and I think that, but, and again, you know, we have to teach caregivers that there's always one in the family that shows up. That's just how it is. And, you know, you deserve to have people around you to help out.

Yeah.

And but they don't know what you want if you don't ask them.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Well said. And I think what's— what you've also said within there is, and through that conversation, you've actually created the opportunity to have your own self-care and your own little moments of timeout, which just helps you keep going and helps you remain balanced, if that's a Not quite the right word, but a concept from there.

Yes, that's perfectly— it is, it is about— it is a balancing act. And I don't know that I— I don't know how about you guys, but I didn't, I didn't really hit that balance that often. But it was a goal, you know, it was a goal that, you know, you know, let's try, you know, that, you know, because I'm an extremist, I'm a perfectionist. I'm an extremist. Everything's black and white to me.

Yeah.

So, you know, learning to try to find that balance is a wonderful exercise.

Yeah. And that just comes back to, back to the scenario that everything's messy. It's okay that it's messy. There's some form of organization there. Make sure you've got some people around you. And just, it's, you know, that ebb and flow Of support of the other persons or persons and of yourself, which ties into, you know, having the appropriate plans and conversations in place and then ties into, you know, taking care of others and also taking care of yourself, that self-care. So I think that's both really, really important. So if I can just, you know, because we always get close to the end and get into some really great conversations I'd love to sort of round things out by asking you to sort of talk about perhaps your 3 top tips or top steps, or I suppose tips or ideas or suggestions and insights that you can give the audience to help make things easier for them, or what they need to be aware of.

Okay, I will go first.

Thank you.

My mantra is we plan for birth, Let's plan for death too. Yeah. And that's pretty self-explanatory. We plan for vacations and everything else, but end of life is like a big taboo. I also believe very strongly that knowledge is power, so any kind of, um, information that you can find, whether it's through a seminar, a meeting Something that's sponsored by an assisted living or a senior community. There are programs always that are available. The Alzheimer's Association also sponsors different programs. I believe that some of them are monthly or bimonthly.

Mm-hmm.

Different organizations such as senior advocacy groups as well as In everybody's community, there is a senior group that has things that you can utilize. So whether it's a meeting or whether it's finding a checklist or any other thing that you might need help with, especially if you're the caregiver, you can go to those areas and, and find that help. It's more available than it used to be.

Yeah, which is beautiful. And just before I pass over to Suzanne, you mentioned your checklist. So can I ask you just to talk about— or you mentioned a checklist, and I know you've got one. Can I ask you just to share a little bit about that so people know that that's available for them to access as well?

Thank you. For anyone who has listened with us today, thank you so much for coming. I have a before and after a death occurs checklist. It's actually almost 10 pages long, so it's a lot of information. And if you would like a copy, I can send it to you if you attach it to the email of myangeljanice111@gmail.com, and in the subject line put Sally's Gift. This will help you to help plan your own end of life. as well as start a conversation with loved ones. I encourage you to make copies, pass it out, get the word out, because, uh, grassroots campaigns are a wonderful thing.

Beautiful.

Oh, and one more thing, I'm also on an educational platform called pickmybrain.world, and if you would like to have a conversation with me, I can schedule a 30-minute session for free so that we can get you started on the process, and then everything will be taken care of and you'll be ahead of the game rather than trying to play catch-up when things don't go well.

Yeah, pre-planning. Awesome. Thank you very, very much for that. Appreciate that. Suzanne?

Yes, it's great. Yes, you know, again, my, you know, my, my 3 takeaways just in general are, you know, you can't do it alone. You can't do it immediately and you can't do it perfectly. Bingo. That's what it is. So, you know, pace yourself and get educated and do research. And again, you know, it's okay. And be kind to yourself around it. You know, it's no matter what it is and what you feel, it's okay. It's just, you know, big feelings. It's an intense journey, and, and just, just be kind to yourself because you're, you're showing up for another human being or human beings, you know. You're giving service in the universe that, you know, you're an angel walking on Earth. So you'll— it's all going to be okay.

Yeah, beautiful. Thank you. And what's the best way for, um, people to get in contact, uh, with you and find out a little bit more about your journey and your tip, you've got a book that we need to share and let people know about.

Yeah, absolutely. So it's behind me there, and Self-Care for Caregivers, and any of your favorite bookstores and on Amazon. I'm very happy with it. And the reason I love it is because it's 140 tips and it's one a page, you know, because caregivers can't sit with a book really. They don't have the time, you know. It's like— and there's also, which is amazing, an Audible version. So, you know, you can just sort of listen as you're doing the ironing and cleaning up the bathroom, which is what was one of my favorite tasks. And I'm really pleased to— it was an honor to have written it. So pick up a copy if you'd like and get in touch with me through my website. And I'd love to hear from you.

Yeah. And for those that are watching and listening later, do have a look at the ticker or the banner that goes across the bottom of show because you will actually see the ladies' websites across the bottom there and you'll be able to make contact with them. As you've seen, it's, it's a very deep conversation. It's one that's very easy to have in a little cluster of women that have been through it like this. It's not always easy to have it with your family, but it can be made easier by sharing knowledge and being armed with a little bit additional information and knowledge and wisdom which both of these ladies have shared with you today and actually have resources to share with you after the fact as well to certainly make your journey a lot easier so you can look after yourself and be well prepared. I can't say thank you enough for both of you ladies for coming back again to the show. I appreciate your time that you've invested a second time around to get this very important important conversation out to the world and have it as a resource for anybody that's needing it. I remember meeting Janice for the first time and she shared her— your folder with me, which with the end of thing, and that to me, I just love that because I'm a folder girl with all of my plans and all of my elements in there. And I appreciate obviously what needs to go into a folder versus just sheet of paper. So there's a lot that needs to be thought about. There's lots of discussions to have. There's lots of perspectives. But that journey, you can walk hand in hand with these 2 lovely ladies to make it much, much easier for you. So that's my final, final words. I'd love you to share any final words from each of you as we get to the close of the show.

Well, Sally, thank you so much for having me again. Suzanne, I'm so grateful to have been able to meet you, and I know that we will be in touch some more to possibly do some things together because we have voices and we are ready to use them. And this is a wonderful platform. And like I said, knowledge is power. The more we talk about it, the less scary it is. And so let's normalize end of life. Absolutely. Thank you.

Yes, thank you, ladies. You're the best.

Thank you very, very much. And with that, we'll end the show. Thank you very, very much for joining us, and we look forward to another— seeing you on another episode of Success Secrets Exposed. And another massive, massive thank you to both of you. Thank you very much. Take care, everybody, and we'll see you next week. Bye.