Hobby to Profitability - How to build a passion business into a profitable legacy-worth business

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Welcome to the Legacy Leavers series on Success Secrets Exposed. Tune in live every Tuesday at 7 PM Eastern time or Wednesday mornings in Australia on W4CY Radio and Talk4TV. The series showcases experts, changemakers, and disruptors leaving a lasting legacy with those sharing their Wisdom with the world.

Good morning, good afternoon, and g'day to you all, and welcome to another episode of Success Secrets Exposed. Today we're going to be talking about hobby to profitability and how to build a passion-based business into a profitable, legacy-worthy business. And I'm super excited to be sharing with you today Jackie Green, who's the powerhouse of Behind the Design, a company that helps interior designers, architects, and creative entrepreneurs transform their business through education, consulting, and marketing. Now, she's the founder and CEO and the chief strategist in refining how creative professionals can turn their passions into a profitable business, allowing them to succeed, explore the systems and habits that it takes behind business success and also uncover the mindset shifts necessary to go from that hobby-based business to a profitable enterprise. So I'd love it if you can all help me welcome Jackie to the show.

Thank you, Sally. I'm so excited to be here.

Thank you so much for joining us. And yet we've dived straight in straight after Christmas and the New Year. So welcome and thank you very, very much for joining us. I really appreciate you taking the time today.

Yeah, absolutely.

Thank you. So I'd love to start at the very, very beginning and sort of dive into getting you to share that backstory. How did you go from starting behind the design and now becoming the leader that's empowering others to create that business and that legacy that they want to build for themselves and their families?

Sure. I spent about 15 years in corporate America, and like many of us, I burned out. Went back to school, became interior designer. Really wasn't loving it like I was with marketing, and I was marketing consultant. I did a bunch of things along the way. I taught, and I realized when I was a marketing consultant, like I really burned out. And what I had essentially done is I had created a job for myself, a really hard job, rather than really building a business. And at that time, I couldn't quite figure out okay. I know I have this. I have these great clients. I'm making good money. But the problem was if I wasn't working, I wasn't making money. If I wasn't, um, then I wasn't with my family. Then I felt guilty for not being with them because I wasn't working. And it's this whole thing that I think a lot of us go into businesses thinking, okay, well, I'm really good at this, or I really like doing this. I want to put that passion and love into something that can really build something. But no one teaches us how to really build a business out of that framework. And so that's essentially where Hobby to Profitability came because I just saw so many designers and creative professionals that had created jobs for themselves. And again, really hard jobs.

Yeah. Yeah. I, I can absolutely relate. And I know, uh, talking, uh, to lots of different people in the entrepreneur space, we all go dive into business for that freedom for ourselves. And, you know, it's all gonna be sunshine and poses. And then, oh my God, you know, 12, 18 months, 2 years in, you're sort of like, what have I done? You've created this monster beast that you're attached to and tied to, and it becomes the, you know, the monster versus the inspiration that you originally wanted it to start for. So I love that you're starting there, and it is, um, there is elements that obviously take it from that hobby, uh, to that, um, legacy or that the business enterprise that we want. And there's gonna be, um, some shifts that I'd really like to dive into with you today around, you know, what are the challenges and the mindset shifts that we need to have, you know, when we dive in with inspiration and it's all sunshine and roses and it's gonna be easy, and then we suddenly have this job that we're chained to. So what are some of the common things that you see, uh, in entrepreneurs as they start that journey and have that realization that they've created this job?

Well, the reason we start with mindset is that's just so important. And we don't realize it, but all of us have some sort of trauma in our background. It might be something that's really severe trauma, or it might just be some experience that we had as a kid where when I was growing up, oftentimes, you know, kids were told to be seen but not heard. I

remember that one.

Yeah, definitely. Or maybe you saw your parents fighting over finances a lot. That was an attention point within your family and how that manifested in you as an adult might be that you have a scarcity mindset, that you're scared to try new ideas. You're scared to think outside of your realm that you're in right now. You think, you might often think that, oh, well, I can't do that because this other person's doing that same idea when really there is enough to go around.

Hmm.

When we really focus on that growth in our growth mindset and really look at, okay, what is holding us back? Whether that be our self-worth, whether that be, um, our confidence, whether it be self-sabotage, whatever those things are, the fear that we have, we have to really address that even to the smallest point of dreaming bigger than our parents dreamed. Mm-hmm. You know, my husband and I both come from very blue-collar backgrounds, and it was one of those things. You went to work for the same company, you worked really hard, you did, you put your time in, and then you retired. And we both don't think that way. And so part of us thought there was something wrong with us. But on the other hand, it's like, oh, but that was still ingrained in me as a child. And it, you know, I had to really kind of address those things when I became an entrepreneurial and how I was going to grow this beyond my comfort zone, beyond what I could dream about.

Yeah. And that there is so many variations to fear and I've, um, Was to love one of the quotes, which is, um, everything you want is on the other side of fear.

Absolutely.

Yeah, which, which is so true. But there's that, that there's all those different types of fear. So it's not just one, it's— there's all those multiple layers. So we do have to, uh, discover, I think, for ourselves the awareness of what is our fear and what is holding us back. So we can almost I'm going to say unpack it to be able to deal with it. Has that been your experience?

It has. And that's the thing. It's really quite hard. And you think, oh, well, I identified this problem in my family. I'll just change it. But that's not how it works. It's really ingrained in us. And so over a period of time, you really have to kind of realize and start recognizing when are you acting a certain way? When are you maybe not making a phone call to a prospect When you know, you know, you know they're interested in your product, but you're scared to call them. Well, I might be bugging them right now, or it's Monday morning, maybe they're busy.

Yeah,

it's Friday afternoon.

Excuses.

Yeah, all those little excuses we tell ourselves. But the thing about it is when we recognize, okay, this is what I'm doing, and do a mental kind of shift of going, okay, hold on, no, we're gonna back up and we're going to do this correctly. We're going to move. They were interested in our product. They said they were interested. Let's call them and see if we can get that meeting scheduled. Yeah. So little shifts like that and really realize about 2 years ago, I really went on this kind of deep dive into finding out, okay, what was holding me back? What was continuously kind of, it just felt like something was really holding me back. And when I started doing that work and really looking at the situation and being in that moment, not after the moment, But in that moment, okay, why am I hesitant to pick up the phone? Why am I hesitant to do this? It really started helping me kind of overcome that. And I promise you, once you start doing those things that you fear, you do it once, you do it twice, you do it 3 times, it becomes so much easier. And then before you know it, you're, you're great at it. Mm-hmm. And I give it an example of networking. I would get so scared of networking. And going somewhere and going into this room with strangers and being able to talk to people that I would physically make myself sick. I would— I have been known to drive to a place and not get out of the car and drive back away. Yeah. And, you know, I just had to start forcing myself. I was like, okay, I'm going to go in here. I'm going to meet one person. That's all I have to do. I have to have one person, introduce myself to one person, talk to that one person. Well, you go into these situations and you, you meet somebody and they're like, oh, you need to meet my friend Jane over here. And then you're meeting Jane, and then before you know it, Jane's reintroducing you to John, and then John's talking to you and you're in a group, and all of a sudden you leave and you're like, oh, that wasn't so bad. Those are really nice people. Because it turns out people that network aren't mean. Yeah.

And so they actually want to be nice and they actually want to meet you.

Yeah. Yeah. And so I forced myself to do it. Every week and I kept doing it and I kept doing it. And about 6 months into it, all of a sudden I realized that I had hopped out of my car, ran into this event, met a bunch of people and left and never thought twice about it. So it's just a mind over matter of recognizing, reframing it, and then really diving in and taking action.

Yeah. And I love the way that you explained that because when you were talking about it, I could see where you've sort of been in your head and I know I do that myself, you sort of had that mental shift in your brain where you just sort of change gears or you back up and you just sort of go, instead of taking that fork, I'm going to take that fork because that's the one where I want to run away to, but that's the one where I want to run to something. So taking that mental shift. But what you've also expressed there, which is one of my Sally nags, is the consistency piece where you just got into the role of going every week. And for me, it's those, you know, we all think change is a great big, huge, dramatic jump from one side of the cliff to the other. And sometimes it can be, but generally speaking, it's all those little incremental steps and habits, the daily little changes and implementations that you create that actually accumulate to create that positive change for us. So I think that's a good thing to sort of share with people that it is, you know, those habits and those consistency pieces.

Yeah, absolutely. It's the little steps, the little things, and they don't have to be big things, but for some reason our brains realize when we're taking those steps, If I take this one step and it's fine, I'm safe, then I'm going to take another step. Oh look, I'm still safe. And it starts opening our world up to things because really our bodies and our brains are really just trying to protect us.

Correct.

They don't want us to be harmed. That's all it is trying to do. And so, you know, just even talking to ourselves and being like, okay, this is going to be okay. I'm going to go in here and you know what, if I don't meet anybody new, Using the networking example, that's okay. If I just say hi to somebody, I'm still getting out of my comfort zone.

Yeah.

And that's something really simple. But for people that are feel like they're kind of introverted, which I am definitely, I definitely get my energy from being at you know home.

You

know the difference between extrovert and introvert? Extrovert, you get excited. You want to meet everybody in the room. That's where you pull energy from. Where us introverts are okay, I can talk to everybody in the room, but then I'm going to go home and go my quiet space and get my energy.

Yeah.

And so when we recognize those things about ourselves, we can really take those little steps and they really don't have to be big steps, but they do build up in time.

Yeah, absolutely. So, uh, there's quite a number of key things that when we, I was reading through, um, the information that you sent through to me and doing my, uh, Google searches and all the other things, there's some real keywords that, uh, really resonate with me, but I'm, I'm going to contain my excitement and skip one and just jump down to it, um, to another one where we, where you talk a lot about the overcoming that perfection paralysis. And this is sort of tying in with where we're talking now. Um, and you emphasize taking action before knowing all the answers. And that can be a little bit fear-based as well, but I think there's some real gold within this. So why is it important to sort of understand and play that game of moving forward to, to be ready?

Perfection is one of those things that you, you thinking you want it to be right because you want to do a good job. We all have that. And I saw it a lot when I was teaching design students. I would see them just really have all this anxiety and anxiousness about it being perfect.

And it—

at some point it dawned on me that even with helping my clients, I still am able to help them. You know, I— they've said, oh, Or I don't know if it's even old, the adage that you just need to know 10% more than they do. Well, here's the thing with the design students is that they, when they're working on a project, if you were presenting that to an actual client, your client's still going to be wowed because you know at least 10% more than they do about design. And it applies to anything. Yes. You know, you just need to know a little bit more and they're like, oh wow, this is great. They don't know all those little tiny details that you know in your head, but nobody else notices. So when we realize that, we can start taking a step back and go, okay, good enough is perfect. Yeah. Because nothing's ever perfect. And if you get in that realm of always trying to be perfect, you're gonna drive yourself crazy. You're not gonna get things done. And so you have to realize, okay, this isn't great. I did— I recorded this video. There's a dog bark in the middle of my video. All right, well, so be it. A lot of us have dogs. I mean, it just is what it is. And so when we start looking at that way and state and say, okay, I'm going to take action instead of worrying about it being perfect, it does— it gets easier. So just like, you know, recording videos, um, you record one video, you record another one, another one, another one, and all of a sudden you're recording videos and you're like, wait a minute, I'm not getting as nervous.

Yeah.

And so it becomes easier. Now your dog's still barking. Or the neighbor's dog or whatever. But, you know, it starts getting a little bit like, everybody's had that situation. It's okay.

Yeah. So totally true. And it makes it so much more real, uh, and personable too, I believe, with all those little nuances too. So that brings me onto one of my favorite little words that you, you, you said within, um, within the context of what you do, and that's the reinvention being a life skill. So everything that we've talked about is all those little incremental steps. So walk us through and then we'll dive in a little bit more, um, the, the reinvention being a life skill and how you've seen that help not only yourself, but also your clients as well.

Yeah, I think that we think, okay, well, I've done this for so long, so I'm always going to do this and I'm always going to do it this way. What I've learned over time and what my clients have learned is that you can reinvent yourself as many times as you want. You can try new things. You know, I spent 20 years in marketing and then all of a sudden I just had a need to do something else. So I took a class. I talked to my husband and I'm like, hey, I'm going to take a class at the Tierra Design School here locally. And yeah, I took a class and before I knew it, 3 years later, I had a degree. I had worked for 3 different architecture firms. And then before long, I was teaching. And you know, it's taking that step. I wouldn't have thought and known that was my path. And then it turned around. I turned around and built a company to really kind of educate and help people after college, after they get out of school. And I did that because I was like, I can't teach them everything I know in the time that I have them. So I want to be able to continuously be able— nor could they take in the information. When you're in school, you're getting— it's like drinking from a fire hose. It's so— Yeah. Take everything in. You don't have the wisdom, you don't have the experience to be able to know how it all fits together until you're really experiencing it. And so I'm like, somebody needs to— and this is, you know, quite a while ago, but I was like, we need to be able to continuously educate and reinvent ourselves and, and be okay with the fact that we fail along the way and we pick ourselves up and dust ourselves off and move forward. That is life, and that's what's fun about it.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think too, uh, that, you know, that quest of— quest to not know the path, to just, um, I'm going to use the trust your instincts. So you sort of had that, that passion-filled moment where you, where you want— went into discovery or seek— sought out a new adventure of sorts, um, and then you've just gone, gone with the flow, and there's been an element of trusting your instincts and The path rolling out. Um, so,

and you think, I mean, just to not to interrupt, but you think, oh, I don't know, so I can't go this path, or that seems really overwhelming. But once you start going down that path, none of us, you think everyone else has all the answers. They don't. And it took me realizing that. Yeah, it took me realizing that and realizing the people around me were just like me, just trying to figure it out. There wasn't a— solution. There wasn't one answer that fit all of us. Nobody has all the answers. Uh, again, I think it's kind of fun to do that, but it's also incredibly scary.

Very. Yeah. Yeah. One of my mentors said to me, and it was, uh, I remember this and I repeat this often, is, um, you know, stop studying strategies and study yourself 95% of the time. So 95% of the time, understand who you are and what you're all about, uh, and study this, uh, strategies 5% of the time when you understand who you are and what you're all about, because then you can actually choose the right ones and you have a little bit of an easier path because you have that ability to be discerning based on the life experiences that you've had to date. But as you said, we don't know that when we're first kicking off and we're in that learning phase. It is like drinking from a fire hose. Yeah. And I believe, and it sounds like you're very similar, is that living life and business is a lifelong learning process.

Yeah, it really is. And I laugh sometimes because it's a learning process and sometimes it hurts. You fall down, you get up, you, you start over and you're kind of like, really? Is this really happening? But at some point you kind of have to just brush yourself off. It's that whole saying, throw some dirt on it, move on. Yeah. And not to be callous about it, but in some ways that's really healthy for us. It's healthy for us to fall down and learn from it and to get up and start again. It's how we grow. And as humans, and, you know, just even our brains, we have to constantly be growing. Um, you know, if you're not growing, you're dying, basically. And so I, I've taken that to heart. And my clients, even my clients are very surprised. I have one client who was scared to do a lot of videos, but when she puts a video out that's not polished, that's just her talking. Mm-hmm. She's like, I get so many more likes and engagement when it's just me, when it's not anything fancy. And I'm like, yeah, that's because people can see the authenticity in you and they can see that you're like them at some point, that maybe you're 5 steps ahead of them, but that you're not that far off and that they can relate to you.

And I think that's becoming really, really prevalent now is people are looking for the humanness with all of the different AI stuff that's out now, good, bad, or ugly. And depending on how people are using it, you know, we do look for the humanness and that humanness is the fact that we've got dirt on our knees because we've just scuffed a knee on the way in and, you know, that we've struggled with different things. And I think part of that humanness also is on the flip side of that, of going through our own struggles and learning our own path and overcoming our own challenges, Um, giving ourselves permission and the ability to actually ask for help and seek help out.

Yeah, that's one of the things I wish I had done earlier in my career was just ask for help. And in my business too, is in it, you know, people often ask, okay, what's the one big lesson you've learned? To ask for help. I thought I had to know all the answers. And then I realized, I'm like, no, no one knows all the answers. And so when I realized that, I'm like, hold on, I can ask other people for help. I don't have to And so that was one of the things that I realized, that there were people around me that could help me. And I see that within my clients too, is that especially when you're a solopreneur or you're just starting to build a business, you're so reluctant to try to go out and get resources to help you because, you know, quite frankly, you don't have a lot of money to do those things. But there are people out there and, you know, I'm not saying that you have to go out and hire you know, that are willing to help you, to give you some advice, and really looking for that and helping out, um, can help you and save you time and money in the long run.

Yeah, absolutely. I've just, uh, written that, uh, written the word competition down, um, because a lot of— I remember from my own experience at that very beginning stage, you actually see and think everybody is competition to you. So you sort of don't want to talk with other people, but there's so much value and power in the mastermind and, you know, fresh eyes with it, with, with other people. And I remember listening to a podcast many years ago, um, and this guy was— had been very, very successfully taken a business from, um, you know, a few million dollars to like, uh, $20-something million in an 18-month period. Like, it was huge growth, and he was only a very, very young CEO in his very early 20s. But what he did is he actually sought people out in his industry that were, you know, at that 50— at the $50 million mark. So, you know, not in competition to somebody that was at the $2 million mark, same industry, but just, you know, the big, big guns. And those guys that were the CEOs and the managing directors and people in, you know, key positions there didn't see him as being competition and often weren't asked for didn't have people asking them for help. So they absolutely loved, you know, going out for a coffee and him asking a few questions. And that was where he got all of his intel to problem solve and fast-track what he wanted to do from a growth perspective. And that really was so confronting to me because he had taken asking for help to the extreme in that he was going to these massive leaders That was the same

industry.

Yeah, but they were so happy to help, and they felt, you know, really privileged that he'd asked them to go out and ask them to go out for coffee. He took them out for coffee, and, you know, he asked them, I think it was 2 or 3 key questions. So he, you know, didn't, you know, completely pick their brain and, you know, be rude and all those sorts of things, but he asked them a couple of key questions. Fast track to success. What a, you know, what a great strategy. Even if we only did that at, you know, a small amount of that, where could we be just by asking for help?

Yeah, absolutely. I think of it too, because in the design industry, I was shocked coming from in corporate. There, there were definitely competition and you're definitely competing for positions, but from a corporation standpoint, they were constantly offering training or go to this conference, or there were other— there was some sharing knowledge as a team. And so when I got into the design field in these smaller businesses, I found that a lot of them would hold their secrets tight. They didn't want to— they didn't want to share. Well, if I, if I tell this stuff to this employee or this other person, they might steal my clients from me. Mm-hmm. And they think about that, um, like in a coach standpoint. If I'm the coach of a baseball team and one player is hitting really well and the other player is not hitting really well, is the player that's hitting really well going to hold his secrets and how he started moving or positioning himself against a certain pitcher? He wouldn't do that because overall he wants the overall team to win.

Right.

And so he's going to say, hey, this pitcher is throwing a little on the inside or this, you know, down low, whatever that is. Let me give you a little bit of advice. You see it all the time on teams like quarterbacks. A rookie comes up and, you know, the old guy per se, you know, the 30-something-year-old quarterback is giving them advice. We still should do that from a business standpoint of helping those behind us. And I had a boss and mentor once that gave me great advice. And essentially what she told me was that the better I got, the stronger I got, the more knowledge I gained, The better she got. It forced her to be better. And even though I was after her job, she was after her boss's job. With that, the whole ecosystem was that the stronger I got, the stronger she got, the stronger the next person got, and we were all doing good for the business. And that really kind of resonated with me because I remember that from early in my career, and she was absolutely right. So from a manager standpoint, I try to build up those people around me. As a leader, um, rather than tearing them down, whether they're part of this company or whether they're, you know, somebody who's competing. I'll share my knowledge with you. Go for it.

Because we'll all interpret it and act differently according to it anyway, which is, you know, one of the things we've all got our own skew and our own experience, which means what you've shared with us and the way you do it's going to be slightly different from me. But we don't often realize that. because of the, you know, the competition and the scarcity that we have with sharing with others. And as you said, especially when we're in that more of a solopreneur space and understanding. So how have you found that your clients have overcome that and found and sought out either the knowledge or the masterminds, especially when they're on that— not the— they haven't got the extra funds to go, you know, hire lots of different coaches or go to all of the different The different educational seminars and those sorts of things. What have you found has really worked for your community in that creative space that tends to be a lot more tight-knit?

I think really looking and prioritizing what is important and what isn't. One, it's recognizing, okay, these, these are my limits, these are the things that I need to grow, and these are the priorities. And when we really start looking at it that way, We can say, and a great example of this is social media. A lot of my clients come to us for help and they think they have to be on every social media platform out there. And it's like, no, one, your, your client, your ideal client isn't on every platform. So let's figure out where your clients are hanging out and only be there. Let's focus on those little areas. And so when we prioritize them, we can get rid of that feeling of, of, I, I have to be everyone. I have to be everywhere for everyone, everything, the whole thing. And it's like, no, I have to focus on these priorities right now. And these are the most important priorities that are going to move my business forward. And so when we start really looking at that and putting our mind around, okay, yeah, I want to do this great little thing over here. I want to do this. When we kind of settle down and go, nope, these are the priorities. This is how we're going to focus. Let's get these things done. We make real progress.

Yeah. Yeah. And isn't it interesting, uh, when you're not, when you're not chasing all of the bright, shiny butterflies and you've just worked out, you know, the one or two, um, how much, how much bigger they grow and brighter they get because, because of that, uh, of that focus. And I think that, um, that focus and the ability to have that discernment, uh, really does sort of drive those, uh, again, those professional habits and the success that we're looking for. I've just got to commend and reiterate too, you don't need to be on every— as another marketeer, you don't have to be on every platform all of the time. You just need to find the platform and know when your audience is there. There's that understanding who you are, but there's also understanding who your audience is and when they're wanting to

And that, I think that's one of the challenges of being an entrepreneur is that one, the thing that makes us great entrepreneurs is that we have those great ideas that we're constantly thinking of the strategy and how we can get ahead and what's the newest thing and staying ahead of trends. But that's also a detriment to our success because we're always thinking that way. And so as entrepreneurs, we really have to kind of take a moment and just kind of take a step back. And step back and go, okay, I, and I have a whiteboard in my office where I sit there and kind of write out these things and give my time, give myself the space to put those ideas down, but then circle back around. Does this hit the priorities of what we were going to accomplish for this year? And if that answer is no, then it's something that has to go on a back burner and we just save it for later. And that's okay. Um, but we really have to look at it in And time is so limited when you really look at time. And I think maybe it's because I'm getting older that I'm realizing that time flies.

It does. It does.

You really, as an entrepreneur, it's so easy to be distracted, but your time is money no matter how you think of it. Even if you don't sell on an hourly basis, maybe you sell products, but your time is definitely money. And how you spend that time is so important for the profitability of your business.

Very much so. And I think, and I love the whiteboarding and capturing ideas. That's one of the things that I'm very passionate about is, you know, capturing all of those ideas. But then as you said, prioritizing them. And for me, that's prioritizing, you know, what's the keyword for the year and what are my 3 major buckets or topics that are doing what we need to do. And as you said, Then you sort of try and sneak another word in there on that, on that, and you sort of go, no, that'll have to go over there. That's sort of, that's not this, this 6 months or this quarter's priority. So it is understanding those priorities and having, um, the clear goals of, you know, how all of the things that you're going to do are helping you achieve that, those outcomes that you're actually setting for yourself.

Yeah. Especially when you have a team too, it really helps the team when you're shooting and going after all these little things. It gets very confusing. For the team. And so as you hire people and you build that up, if you're just kind of willy-nilly moving and changing things, that's not good. It's not good for the employee engagement. It's not good for them to really kind of focus on their jobs. The type of employees that you're hiring, a lot of times we will hire more administrative at first or more people that really like working within a system. Yes. And if you're kind of just changing the game plan every other day, That can be really overwhelming to a lot of employees. And so it's, you know, it's, it's just not, it's just not a good idea. And so when we have a really focused approach and really say, okay, these ideas are great, but let's put them here. We're going to really focus on what we set out to accomplish in whatever period of time, this month, this quarter, this year, whatever that is. And it takes a real strong leader to be able to do that.

Yeah, yeah. There's a great visual that somebody shared with me. You know, when you've been on the escalators, the stairs that you go down, and on occasions that they sort of stop and you get that jolt? Well, if you imagine those escalators and you've got somebody at both ends just doing that, jiggling them backwards and forwards, that's often what our employees— because I've done this to my employees— my employees are sort of trying, are we going up? Are we going down? Are we going to fall off? Because they're on that escalator that I'm doing this to because I keep changing all of the The ideas and stuff. So

that's very funny. I can imagine that. And it is so true. And every entrepreneur, including myself, we've all done it. We've all put our employees through this and like, hold on, yesterday you told me we're working on this and today we're working on this. Am I confused?

And we wonder why they, they, they look like they've been running a marathon, that they're, you know, they're stressed, they're ragged. And it's sort of like, well, I've been trying to, you know, stay steady. I've been this thing that you've been jiggling around. So I think sort of sharing that visual, which I just thought was great when I saw it, of what we are doing to our team when we aren't consistent in our own focus and priorities. So is there, as it relates to the creative people that you work with, is there key systems and processes that you recommend that they have to help turn that passion into this thriving business? What would you, uh, uh, would you walk us through those?

And that's part of our— when we talk about hobby to profitability, systems and processes are huge. And it really starts with the customer. What— who is your ideal customer? What are their expectations? What do they want? Where do they hang out? Um, what, you know, what products and services can you offer them? And then we start really looking at that and saying, okay, well, this is my audience. Let's look at what products and services are we willing to build, create for them? What pricing, what's the pricing on that? What are they willing to pay for this? And that we're still able to be able to offer it at the service level that we want to offer it. Then we can kind of get into more around that experience. The customer experience is going to be, is incredibly important and is going to continue to be important.

Mm-hmm.

And so AI is the biggest thing, But with AI, and I'm a component for AI, we use it within our business and I promote it and help other clients use it as well. But there is a level of taking that personal connection experience away. And so we really need to be cognizant of bringing that back in and making sure that our customers are having the experience that they need or want.

Yeah.

And yeah, and understanding that. And so when we start to build processes around this, and it's basically a framework framework that we've created, then we can start putting in not just the steps that need to be accomplished so that someone can easily do that within our team.

Mm-hmm.

It also shows us opportunities to grow within the system and see where we can kind of explore and look ahead. And so we are always in that framework. We look at promotion, we look at operations, we look at analyzing everything and all the data. And it's— I know people are like, oh, systems, processes, this is so time-consuming. But I promise you, if you want to grow a company and you want that company to be profitable and you want to leave a legacy or you want to sell that business at some point, you have to have those systems and processes in place. And it allows you to figure out where those efficiencies and inefficiencies are. It allows you to know, okay, where can we improve? Improve our customer experience so our retention's higher, because we know that returning customers are a lot cheaper than going out and getting a new customer. And it helps with our employee engagement. You know, employees want a system that they can work in. They want to know what the rules are and the boundaries are and, and what their expectations are for their job. And so when we give them that systems and processes, it doesn't mean it can't be improved. Mm-hmm. And it really kind of guides us down a path that we're ensuring that no matter if it's you talking to the client or whether it's an account manager, a salesperson, the marketing person, a designer, whatever that is, is talking to that same client, that we're all doing the same thing. We're offering the same level of service. We're capturing that information and sharing it with our team.

Mm-hmm.

And putting that within our CRM system if we have one.

Yeah.

And we're communicating both to the client and internally.

Um, I think, um, with what you've expressed there, there's comfort in the container.

Yeah.

But the container doesn't have to always be, you know, completely solid. It is, it is able to move and grow. So the container's like that rubber band that, you know, as we stretch it out, it continues to grow and then stays sort of further out. But there is absolute comfort in that container of knowing what's expected and what we can do, etc., on a daily basis in that area. So what are the— from a systems perspective, and I know that's a broad statement or word, from a systems perspective, what do you see as the most challenging system, if you were to call one out, for most people in the creative space?

So in creative, it's the design process. I hear a lot of times that But you know, every project's different. Different designing for you know different clients. I'm designing is different. Yes and no. So when we look at, let's use a house for instance. When we look at a house, we know that the foundation goes in first. You can't build a house without a foundation. We know that the house is going to need plumbing. It's going to need electrical. It needs a roof. To get a roof, you got to have walls. There is a system within building that, there is still a system within the creative process. We still have to think through, okay, what are the needs of the client and what are the steps to get there? There's still a level of steps even though there's creative process within that. Identifying the steps— well, the first thing is I do sketches. I send the sketch, I talk to the client, I show them the sketches, and I get an idea of what they like and don't like. Okay. That's a process.

Yes.

And that's how you— that, that's exactly the process. Okay, once you get that feedback from the sketches, what happens now? Well, now I go into the, you know, into the computer software and I start kind of building it within whatever software I'm using. And in interior design architecture, it's often called schematic design. And so it's just kind of an idea of, okay, this is kind of what it's looking like. And we go back to the client. Okay, yeah, I like this, I don't like that. We change that. Then we come back and we start really developing that design, and it's called design development. And we go in and we really start putting the little things in there, the nitty-gritty things, the faucets, or the, you know, what color those faucets are going to be, or what the cabinets are going to look like. Or we start really kind of building out that picture, but there is a process in doing that. And so really, when you think of creatives, You're thinking, well, I don't have a process. Everything's different. No, it's actually really not. When you break it down to the smallest, simplest steps, there are steps and processes you follow, whether you know it or not. You have them.

So glad you've said that because that's, uh, that's my experience with the clients that I work with in a different creative space is everyone thinks that they're creative and everything, and that they are creative and unique. unique, but there's always steps and foundational things that they do repeatedly. But because they're so in their inner genius, they actually don't notice it. But when somebody with fresh eyes like you and I can actually see what they're doing in those steps, and it is just about understanding that and then creating the systems behind that. But it's not easy for us to see as a creative person how we do those habitual things, because as we've said, humans are so habitual, aren't

we? We really are, and understanding that. But as creatives, we often kind of fly out there and just kind of let ourselves, you know, be— well, I'm just— it's creative, I'm coming up with this idea, I have this idea in my head, how do I put it down? But you're absolutely— there's a process, and we all go through that, and we are very habitual as people. And that— and that's part of what we talk about too, is once you identify, you know, those systems and processes that you have created that you are doing whether you know it or not, it one helps you identify, okay, which ones, what can we change to make it more efficient or adjust? And then also what habits do we build around that? It's like, you know, you're having a customer, you talk to a customer and the customer calls and says, you know, I'm really just not liking this one aspect. I thought about it and like we do a lot of websites. I really don't want to put that on my website. Okay, well, I could either write that down on a sticky note, or I could go into the project forms that I've created in the systems and write down, okay, client is wary of this. This is, you know, what their thoughts are. You know, either can we show them a mock-up of where it might look better, or do we just drop this? You know, putting those notes into the customer File versus I have a sticky and I have a stack of stickies like this all over the wall, getting taken over by stickies. It's not going to help the project and your system.

Yeah, so true. So, um, I know we asked the question before, um, around key lessons and learning learnings, and you've shared some of those. From words of encouragement, encouragement for somebody, what advice would you give somebody that's on the edge of that leap between hobby and being a full-fledged business, what would your tips be?

The first thing is believe in yourself. You're gonna, you're gonna figure it out. You might fall, yeah. You might fail, yeah. But you have to believe in yourself and in your self-worth, that you deserve all the hard work that you put into this, that you deserve success, and that you're You're worthy to receive that success, and I think that's one of them important things. And saying that too, it's we've talked about this is asking for help and getting advice, and that's okay not to have all the answers and understand you don't have all the answers, but know that you are going to find the answers. They might hit you over the head with a big bat one day, but you're going to find the answers, and it's going to come to you. And the other thing is I always rely on my gut. And every time I get a feeling in my gut that doesn't seem right, I promise you it turns out really bad. And so when I started listening to my gut, okay, this is a— I'm not sure this is the right product or this is the right service or a customer. I had a client who was talking about one of their clients that kept coming back to them and saying, But I can get this at Home Depot. Well, okay, if you want. And this is an interior designer. Well, if you wanted just to go to Home Depot, then go to Home Depot. The products we're suggesting are a higher level. And so I told her, I'm like, you have got to get rid of that. You have to fire him because he's going to continue to try to nickel and dime you. She goes, yeah, I have that feeling. And I'm like, it was in your gut. You knew this was not a good client for you. And you have to listen to that gut feeling because it's typically there for a reason. Now, with that said, sometimes, you know, just like we talked about earlier about being scared, you kind of have to be like, okay, I understand we're a little scared about trying something new. Trying something new is good. But if you have a gut feeling about something big, there's usually a reason you should look into it a little bit deeper before you just sign on the dotted line.

Yeah, very much so, which is why I've got that over this side. Trust your instincts because they're That's my reminder for me, because you can either have the, the feather, the brick, or the Mack truck version of that, uh, of the reminder. So, um, and now I sort of got to Mack truck a lot before I was actually listening. I've learned, learned now that the feather is probably the best place to actually start.

It's so true. I cannot tell you how many times, especially in my younger days, where I was thinking like, how did I get myself into that Oh yeah, there were signs that I totally ignored.

So finally I

got run over.

Yeah, I hear you on that one. So as we come to the end, and with all great conversations, they zoom through— we zoom through the time really, really quickly. As a leader and a mentor in the space that you're in, uh, what legacy do you hope to leave through behind the design and the work that you do with creative entrepreneurs? What's your big hairy goal?

You know, I really want to inspire people to reach for more. And so often I see these creatives think, oh well, I just have enough clients, I'm good, you know, I don't need to grow. It's like, no, you deserve and you have a talent. Go out there and dream big and accomplish it. And I want— if I inspire one person, you know, with this interview, with other interviews, with the work I do with them, then that is all worth it to me. And the other part is, the part of the reason I do this too is also to inspire my kids.

Yeah.

For them to reach higher. And I'm, you know, that's a big thing for me is to make sure I'm living that life that I have told them to live and showing that I can overcome my own fears and in And get the things that I've dreamed of. And where we so often go, oh, you could be anything you dream about, and then we don't do it. That doesn't seem right. And so I want to make sure that the legacy I leave for them is that they know that, you know, I was always fighting to do more things, better things, help others, and all the great things.

Yeah, perfect. How old are your children?

Uh, one's 28 and recently engaged, so we're pretty excited about that. And one's 19.

I, I asked that because I know, you know, there's that saying that out of the, out of the mouth of babes comes wisdom. And I'm sure as a mother, and with them being older, you've had something dished back at you. What's one of the lessons you've had dished back at you as we close out?

Oh, I love when they say, but you said this. Well, don't do what I said. Don't pay attention to what I'm doing. You just do what I said. So I'm trying to think I can think of one thing, like, um, I know my youngest right now, we have this big thing about driving and he does not want to drive and he just is refusing. And he's like, well, yeah, but you drive so fast. And he's constantly pointing out that I, even though I'm a big rule follower, I always drive too fast. I'm like, thanks a lot for pointing that out there, buddy.

God bless those children. I've got no experience, which is why I asked you.

There's tons of examples. I mean, it's just funny how they're like that.

Yeah, my son's 21 and he's very much a rule follower, and I'm always getting, but you just, you know, you went across the line. Okay, let's just keep going. But God bless children, they do, they do watch, they do learn from us, and they even give it, give it back to us as well. So

100%. But you know what, it's made me a better person, that's for sure.

Absolutely, couldn't agree more. So Jackie, thank you Thank you so much for sharing all of your wise words of wisdom with us. And the best place for people to reach out to you is through your website, which is behindthedesign.com. And you've got lots of resources there that people can connect with you, and on LinkedIn and Instagram.

And it's behindthedesignco.com. Oh,

co, co, is it?

Yep, yep, absolutely.

Lovely. Well, thank you very, very much, and we will look forward to seeing you all again on another episode of Success Secrets Exposed. Till then, take care. Bye.

Remember, if you want to be sought after and sold out, as well as being known as the obvious expert in your industry, you need to speak with Sally, our host of Success Secrets Exposed. Sally is the founder of Monetize Your Content, a done-for-you content marketing agency that helps you be easy to buy. See you next time. Next week on another episode of Success Secrets Exposed. Tune in live every Tuesday at 7 PM Eastern time or Wednesday mornings in Australia on W4CY Radio and Talk4TV.