Maverick Marketing

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Welcome to the Legacy Leavers series on Success Secrets Exposed. Tune in live every Tuesday at 7 PM Eastern time or Wednesday mornings in Australia on W4CY Radio and Talk4TV. The series showcases experts, changemakers, and disruptors leaving a lasting legacy with those sharing Their wisdom with the world.

Good morning, good afternoon, and g'day to you all, and welcome to another episode of Success Secrets Exposed. Today we're going to be talking about embracing a maverick mindset in business. We're going to be joined by Todd Starr, who's the founder of Be Seen More, which is a bold marketing agency helping Kiwi small businesses and nonprofits stand out, connect with the right audiences and the right customers. Todd's from, from a working-class upbringing in Cornwall, um, to now boldly running a very successful agency in New Zealand. And Todd's journey is fueled with creativity, resilience, and a dyslexic superpower. So we're going to dive into Todd's unique perspectives on transactional analysis— tongue tripper there for me— dyslexic thinking, and strategic marketing. And we're going to discover how he has empowered business owners to navigate their own challenges with confidence and a deeper understanding of not only themselves but also their customers and others also. So please help me welcome to the stage Todd Starr.

Hey Sally, thanks for having me.

Thank you, lovely to have you on the show, and thank you very much for joining us. I'm really looking forward to a of a deep dive into your inner genius.

Yeah, I hope I can live up to that introduction. Pressure's on.

It is, absolutely. In a fun way though, of course. So let's start with a little bit of the backstory to give the audience a bit of a perspective. So you grew up in Cornwall, and how has that affected your and shaped your mindset and business philosophies?

I think, um, yeah, I mean, if we go, if we go right back, I grew up in a, I would say, a near-perfect childhood. Um, and I think there were, there were a few ingredients to that. Um, complete boundless love. So our parents really loved us. Um, and unfortunately, that's quite a rare, rare thing I'm coming to learn in the world. So, so very lucky that, that they loved us. We had good mindset instilled in us. My dad was a very hard worker, so was my mum, and they really sacrificed a lot of the things they could have done for us. So, you know, lots of love, lots of sacrifice, and not much money. And I think that's the best ingredient, you know, to raise kids in. I think we have a— all of us, my older brother Dean's a property investor and developer in the UK, and And my sister works here at Nelson as a marketing girl at the Nelson Hospice in the nonprofit sector. So we're all very grounded, I think, in our principles and our values. And that came from that type of upbringing. I think the shift to New Zealand was very poignant. It immediately thrust us into a different culture. I say this in an endearing way, not in an arrogant way, but you sort of go back in time when you get to New Zealand. Certainly, spending some time in some bigger cities in the UK, as soon as you get off the plane here, you're sort of 5 years backwards. And that doesn't mean there's not great innovation here, but I just feel like we're just a bit slower as Kiwis to adopt new things. So I always felt like that gave us, well, that gave me a bit of an advantage because I would be plugged in with things in the UK and I'll be able to bring that over here. So yeah, I don't know if that really answers the question, but good upbringing, good parents, lots of love.

Yeah, absolutely. Those sorts of things are very shaping. And I also love that you've used the term plugged in, because when you've been shaped but you've also plugged into where things are actually happening at a different pace or a different speed, or there's new insights and you remain in that plugged-in space, you do have that opportunity to bring stuff forward and help more people because it does feel new and innovative and exciting to them, but you know where the philosophies and the grounded— grounding elements of that are. And I think that's the ability to be able to share that does make a huge, huge, huge difference.

Yeah, and I also think— how do I say this— I also think there's a level of Sort of, I don't know the best way to phrase this. Yeah, what did you say before? You, you got me thinking about something you said, um, about sort of bringing ideas over and

bringing up the fact that the speed in which you being plugged in and being able to translate and transfer that knowledge across, there's power in that element.

Yeah, 100%. So that made me think just about the scale as well. Like, it's so easy to forget how big the world is. You know, we're based in Nelson. I think there's about 80,000 people here. And even if you're in Auckland, there's a couple of million, you know, and you look at some of these other big countries and big cities and you forget the scale and the opportunity that's out there globally. And it's easy to feel a bit detached from that when you're in a small sort of area of a country miles away. Yeah. But I also think in some ways it's good to recognize that if, especially if you're a local business or you're a service-based business where you need to be serving customers in your location, not to get too distracted with insights and philosophies of like big American entrepreneurial authors, right? I think so many people can get stuck in like the Alex Hormozis and the Gary Vee mindsets and like they're just operating in a different culture at a different scale. Different buying cycles. People make decisions quicker or slower. And I just think a lot of that can be damaging when people take those philosophies and try and map them into like 80,000 people as your market size. It's like, um, there's a more delicate way to go about that. So yeah.

Yeah, I, I just— that reminds me of the— we used to have a button, you know, the yay button and the— and that was because you can't be that sort of a guru at the front. of the room, and I often talked with our clients about, you know, you can't be a cardboard cutout of somebody else. You just can utilize some of their strategies, but you need to be able to map them and understand if those strategies suit you, your personality, your buying cycles, your clients, and all those other things. You can't automatically go, oh, I want to do that in my business, because it might not, it might not be the right thing. When you're looking outside of yourself at the guru at the front of the room versus looking at the guru at the front of the room and going, okay, well, that resonates with the way in which I operate and who I am. I can bring that into my business. And I think that's the issue with— and I know we'll probably end up having a deep dive into the marketing conversation, but that's the issue I see with marketing in general is people see the guru at the front of the room, tactics as their marketing tactics, but it doesn't suit themselves or their strategies or their marketplace, and then they fall flat. We've got too entrenched in the guru at the front of the room.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think, I mean, half of you is everyone else. So this is a concept that took me quite a while to understand, and it's from a book about the brain. But they basically say that half of you is made up of everyone else. So 50% of who you are as a person is informed around others' opinions, information they communicate to you, what they say, how they talk, how they make you feel. The other half of you is you when you're alone. And I think it's important to understand each part of you because that enables you to see clearly and make better decisions. And I think certainly from a business and a marketing perspective, like belief is a big topic. I know that many people sit on the fence and maybe don't believe that they can market themselves better. Others might tell them they can improve, and they might even think they can improve. They might even deeply know it. But until they believe it, they won't decide. And if they don't decide to do something different, then they won't take action. And if they don't take action, then nothing will change. So when you dig a little deeper into this, they already have a belief in place. They already believe that they can't. So it's actually not that they can't believe at all. It's that you have to rewrite that script that's in their head and change their beliefs. And that's very hard to do alone. Yeah. So essentially, you know, in my job, I can't help someone if their problem isn't painful enough. So unfortunately, I'm You know, my sweet spot is not really startups and early founders because they already have some level of ego or a deep belief that they can do something. They're willing to take a risk and start something new and try and innovate in a space, and they think they can do it better and compete. So they're usually not at the stage where they're most receptive to the type of work I do. And then you've got the other end of the spectrum, people that are just set in their ways and it's very hard to change their beliefs. And then you've got like the kind of middle section, the 2 to 5 year chasm when all the kind of early stage entrepreneurialism's worn off a bit and things are not working how you planned. And that's where the pain's gonna be real enough and the opportunity to help them change is gonna be more available. So yeah, a bit of a rant, but that's what I think about it.

No, I love that. And that's so poignant in that. And I my brain goes automatically to the pace and the speed or the movement. Yeah. Unless you're rocking the car and you've got some movement with the car, you're not going to move the car forward unless it's in gear and those sorts of things. And when you spoke with the startups, they're in movement. Might not be the right movement, but they're in movement. They're in doing mode. And then at the other end, it's that I'm not doing because I've got stuck in that spot, whereas in that spot, and they're not hungry anymore because they've had enough.

Yeah. And to use your car analogy, like, I don't really want to be out there at the dealership when you're buying your car. And I also don't want to be there when you're selling your car at the end. I want to be there when, you know, just before you're about to break down at the side of the road. That's the sweet spot of sort of, you know, the car's not quite operating how it should. And you need a mechanic to meet you at the side of the road and help you get going. I think there's a really good story. I like to give credit where credit's due, but I can't remember where I heard this. But there's a story about a pebble in your shoe. And I mean, if you got up now, Sally, and went for a 5K run, and after 2 to 3 minutes, you could feel a pebble in your shoe, at that very moment, you have 2 options ahead of you. Yeah. One is the truth and one is a painful delusion that unfortunately many believe.

Yeah.

You could stop running at that moment, take the pebble out, and then keep running. You could also convince yourself that you shouldn't stop running because you're going to get a personal best, um, and that over time, by avoiding, you know, discomfort and pain and using just grit and determination and will, that eventually the pebble will wear down. And I see business owners every day with a pebble in their shoe. So my real job is to convince them to stop and take it out. I mean, I spoke to an accountant yesterday from up north in New Zealand, and, and he's had a pebble in his shoe for 10 years. You know, he knows this issue has existed. And, and my question was, why have you done nothing about it? And it just wasn't painful enough for him to fix it. And it's cheaper and easier and faster to fix it as soon as you notice it. But— It's It's going to be hard for him to undo a lot of the mess that he's in because it's just built up over 10 years. So it's going to cost him a lot more and take him a lot more effort rather than just stopping and taking the stone out.

And this to me is sounding like, you know, having this maverick mindset, because I've seen little sprinkles or heard little sprinkles as we've been talking about this maverick mindset and what it means to you and how you're helping your clients. How has that maverick mindset guided your journey?

Um, I mean, the word Maverick came from— it was meant as an insult. I was talking— I won't say who it is, um, but there was, there was quite a well-known marketing guy. Any, any one of my followers would know who it is. So he owns an agency locally, and, and we were at a networking event, and, and I was talking to him about some ideas, and, and we were working with a, with the same client, um, offering different services, and, and he tried to insult me and said, you know, you're just, you're just too Maverick. And I sort of went away and thought, I don't really know actually what that means. So Googled it and I think it means something like independent thinker or sort of bit rogue. I think if you just fundamentally look at what marketing is, being a maverick is sort of the most endearing quality I could have. So he said it to me in a way that's like, you're not conforming to the norm, but that's exactly what you want your marketing to do.

Yeah.

So that's sort of where it came from. And then I suppose for me, it's evolved into, if it's independent thinking, then it gives me sort of boundless freedom to explore it. And I think when I look at marketing, it's psychology at scale, it's communication at scale. So the thing we were talking about before, right, that accountant who's had this problem for 10 years, that has grown now. from a marketing problem, i.e., he is not producing content, he is not promoting his products and services, he's not running ads, his website doesn't function well. That was a marketing problem.

Mm-hmm.

But now that's grown into a psychological problem. Now he feels like an imposter. He feels invisible in the marketplace. So he's got some doubt that's growing. So that has grown very quickly from a, from a simple tactical strategic marketing problem that we can fix. to now like a deeply rooted belief system that has to change. Yeah. So in terms of the Maverick Marketing thing, I just think I'm noticing ways to improve the space. And that makes me maverick, I suppose, because I'm testing counterintuitive things. I'm mapping tools and technologies and psychological principles together in an unusual way. And And my competition don't like it.

Yeah, and that's great. Can I ask from that, with that maverick mindset, and this is just a bit, something that's just popped into my head as it does. With that maverick mindset and really understanding your clients like you do, and especially as it relates to the beliefs and the communications and all that mindset stuff in the back that we had a deep conversation with, which we'll bring forward. Do you find yourself that, find with that maverick mindset that you actually— I'm going to use the word no or stop. I'm always saying to my clients, no, no, no, no, stop, stop, stop. We just need to do this. Because everyone, from my perspective, I find people overcomplicate stuff. And this was something we spoke about the other day. Um, do you find yourself in that maverick position actually saying to people no and stop as part of what you do?

I think, yeah, I think that there's a number of ways to answer that. So it's, and it's a good question, it deserves a good answer. But if I, if I pull out a little bit, I think for me it's, it's not about direction, directing them. It's not saying stop. But for me, um, it's using empathy. Um, so what, what do I mean by that? I suppose what the definition of empathy, I mean, is, is feeling someone else's pain, right? So watching someone else in pain and being in pain use exactly the same neural machinery. And this is the basis of empathy. So to empathize with another person is literally to feel their pain. You run a sort of compelling simulation in your mind of what it would be like if you were in that same situation. If you can get to that sort of radical empathy space, everything changes in terms of how you look at these problems, right? But why do we have that facility in the first place? And from an evolutionary point of view, empathy is an extremely useful skill. Yeah. Sort of by gaining a better grasp of what someone else is feeling, it gives you an easier way to predict what they'll likely do next. So You know, if someone says they're dying of thirst and you show them a tap, you can easily predict they're probably going to drink some water. You know, if a kid falls over and gets an injury and it's a bad one and you can feel how their parents feel, it's likely that they're going to go to the hospital. So if you can feel a business is in pain and you know they genuinely want to fix that pain, you can accurately predict what you can do and who you know that you can send them to for help. So I think being You know, like, I think a business that's being successful, like, does not protect them from going broke. Um, you know, you, you are how you think, you are what you do, you do what you think. Therefore, it's thinking followed by actions that keeps you where you are. And, and if you can— if you take the wrong advice and think the wrong things, your situation can change quicker than, than you believe. So ultimately You know, empathy on my side and focus on your side will determine your reality, basically.

Yeah, yeah, beautifully. Well, well said. Thank you. Now I'm just going to ask too, before I dive into the question that keeps sitting there talking to me, and we also talked about, uh, the dyslexia as being your superpower. I'm sort of feeling now that this is about the right time to sort of unpack that before I ask the next question.

Okay.

So talk to me about your superpower.

I suppose other than being dyslexic, I'm not that well studied on it, so I, I can only speak to this from a place of knowing how it affects me or how I think it affects me. There's always a little bit of sort of cognitive dissonance around how you think you're being and how other people perceive you, so I can only say this from my point of view. But I think, in my opinion, my dyslexia and people I know that are dyslexic, it makes you exceptional at big picture thinking and problem solving and recognizing patterns. And non-dyslexics, by contrast, lean more towards sort of logic and sequential language-driven reasoning. So from a strategic point of view and a problem solving point of view and a marketing and comms and PR space, being dyslexic is a superpower.

Yeah.

It was hard as a child because I was— I only found out that I was actually dyslexic maybe 5 years ago. I'd done some tests and Richard Branson had a test online and I was just off the scale in terms of, you are definitely dyslexic. But I went through my whole child, you know, and early adult life feeling different.

Yeah.

People telling me I was different, but never finding a place where I could slot in and that would be good. So in school, that was terrible. In my jobs when I was younger, I could see more efficient ways to do things. I could see better systems, better operational ideas and innovations to make things work better. But you're 15, 16, and your boss has owned the company for 20 years, and you just come across as an arrogant guy. You know, so I wasn't really taken seriously at that point. And it wasn't until I went out into business on my own that that really became, you know, sort of the entrepreneurial arena is like the ultimate playground because there's endless problems to solve. So I think as a child it was hard, but that set me up without it being hard. That set me up, you know, to get resilient and really understand what is considered normal. Because I wasn't considered normal in school. And then that helps me break the mold now for all the business owners that did well in class that now can't think independently, right? So I think I sort of tactfully avoided all of that school programming, which my parents did not like. Yeah. But in terms of, in terms of like unpacking dyslexia for, for the listeners or the viewers, I think it can often sound arrogant because you're I find myself regularly stating the obvious, um, and— but it's— but I know now that it's not obvious to others. Yes. Um, so you can sometimes come across as a bit of a know-it-all, but it's just I can see some patterns that others can't. And, and if you step back and really look at neurodiversity, like, we are shaped— we— the world we live in is shaped by neurodiversity. Um, Vinton Cerf was dyslexic and hearing impaired and had several neurodiverse traits. Probably no one listening to this has ever heard of him, but he invented the internet. You know, Alexander Graham Bell was dyslexic, he invented the telephone. Yeah. Steve Jobs, dyslexic, then invents the iPhone, building from a previous dyslexic thinker. You know, Thomas Edison, the light bulb. Richard Branson, Virgin Group. You know, trains, planes, music, entertainment. Henry Ford, General Assembly line. John Lennon, Leonardo da Vinci, Pablo Picasso, you know, Steven Spielberg, Walt Disney, like these are all dyslexic thinkers who have shaped everything we now consume as humans across media, entertainment, science, biology, chemistry, electricity, connectivity, like it's dyslexic thinkers who shape the world, um, and everyone else is just living in

it. Yeah, because they see so differently. That's, yeah, a beautiful explanation of that, thank you. And that's given me a whole lot of insight, and I was getting goosebumps as you were sharing that. So thank you. One of the things that we talked about the other day, and you've mentioned it a couple of times, is this transactional analysis. I always trip up over that word, so we'll just call it TA. Can you tell me, explain what that actually is and how you utilize that in business? Give the audience a bit of a taste. perspective on that?

Again, I'm not an expert in this whatsoever. Um, it's something I came across 5, 5 years ago. Um, effectively, it's a psychological methodology, um, that states we have 3, um, brains, 3, 3 sort of ego states. And again, I'm probably going to butcher this, but there's plenty of stuff online if people want to go and get real deep knowledge on this, but effectively you have, um, your adult brain, your parent brain, and your child brain. Your adult brain is logical, reasonable, rational, unemotional. It's just the computer part of your brain. The parent brain is split into 2, so you've got like a nurturing parent brain and a critical, pointy, shouty parent brain. And that is effectively—

That's Brian.

What's that? Sorry.

Oh, I just go, I know which one I like playing in. So

those, those parts of your parent brain, to my understanding, represent programming from authoritative figures around you. So your parents, uh, your grandparents, uncles, aunties, older siblings, school teachers, anybody in a position of authority, and the things they told you. Yeah. Um, and then your child brain, from my understanding, is like stored emotions and how you felt depending on those parent— parental figures around you. So that's like you've got like a carefree child, like a— I think it's called a natural child, and then you've got an adapted child. So the natural child is a bit carefree, jump off a big high tree and hurt themselves, throw paint everywhere. Um, not, not really caring, just be impulsive.

Mm-hmm.

And then the, the adaptive child is like the stored emotions, good and bad, of, you know, don't do that, you shouldn't do that, why did you talk to me like that, and so on. Um, so when you then take that out of a therapy session with someone who's like mentally ill and drop that into a marketing or business setting from a strategic perspective, it's absolutely magic. And it feels like I've started to connect with some sort of marketing/psychologist people. And I thought for a while that was quite an original concept, but it does look like people are doing it well. But I think I've just noticed how like it goes back to what we said before, right? That marketing is ultimately communicating at scale. So if you know who you are really, And how you think and how you feel and how you respond to things, and you can sort of simulate what that would be like with your customers, you can communicate with them better, right? And then you just slot marketing in there and you have a much deeper understanding about how people think and feel and, and, um, yeah, what levers to pull to, to make everybody better and happy.

Yeah, no, I love that. When we spoke the other day, I really— and thank you for going into the detail of that because that's given me even more insight. Because from the work that we do when when it comes to creating the content that we do, which is very, we call it emotive. It gave me deeper understanding of why I look at certain images and why I'm looking for it to instill an emotive reaction or a mirror reflection of someone's transformation that they're seeking or they're experiencing.

Absolutely. This is the book to read on that if anybody wants to read a book about it.

Perfect.

It's called Games People Play: The Psychology of Human Relationships. And the founder of Transaction Analysis is that guy, Eric Berne. So in here, it shows you lots and lots of examples of very trivial, simple arguments and conflicts that people get into. And you'll see it everywhere around your house and at work and with friends. And you'll just see the games that are playing, and you can very quickly adapt that to your business.

Yeah, perfect. I'm going to come back to the question now and just change gears slightly that's got me all excited the other day when we started talking. And it's that one around marketing versus meaningful connections, because I know this is an area that you're really getting really into with the work that you do. And we talked about how business owners will automatically think, and even us expert business owners, that we just need to do more marketing. instead of, um, you know, that quick action of a meaningful business development scenario. What I'm getting at there is it's explaining that doing, um, you know, almost doing less posting because everyone will automatically go and think to do a marketing activity versus, you know, we could actually just pick up the phone and ring 8 people and go, hey, I'm just doing blah, do you want, do you want to come and join? You know, being that friend and that providing that Uh, invitation. Um, I'd love to, um, explore and unpack that with you with, uh, from an insight perspective, because you would see clients do that a lot too, like I see it a lot. Um, and yeah, just put your— I'd love to have your lens on, on that.

Hmm. I think I believe there are, there are 3 types of marketing support out there in the market. One is selling vitamins, one is selling painkillers, and one is selling surgery. When I think about what you just said, I think most, most marketing agencies are selling vitamins or vitamins, and they, they fill some hole in your diet and they make you feel like you're making good decisions. And it might be placebo, it might actually be helping. Others are selling painkillers, and those are good for people who don't need vitamins, but they want you to kill the pain immediately.

We call that the red pill, blue pill, just fix it.

Bit of Matrix stuff. But what, what most businesses need is full-on Surgery, like if your liver hurts, vitamins are not going to do much. Painkillers will do something because they will hide the pain that's really going on deep down. But what you need is an MRI scan that reveals the truth, and you need a surgeon that can go deep inside you with the correct tools, knowledge, experience, and precision to fix the bleeding. And the problem is that most people are afraid to go under the knife. So those that you know, those that do have a healthy and happy business and those that don't, there's always a feeling of underlying pain. And like, it's easy not to do anything. It's easy to just take the painkillers or avoid the pain. Like, the gravity of average is very strong. So you have to be brave to be noticed. And most people are not willing to do what it takes. But it's amazing to see what pain you can endure. Yeah. when you have no choice. But I just, I guess I would wrap that up with if you're a business owner and you know you need to do something, like it's so much easier to just ask somebody for help. And it doesn't, you know, if you ask the right people, I give people advice all the time and free things and low-hanging fruit and a simple LinkedIn message and I might be able to solve your problem for free because I've done 3,000, you know, creative client projects, and I've walked this path many, many times. I know, I know the map.

Yeah.

But people are afraid to even do that, right? Because, because I think LinkedIn's full of just— it is a pitch fest. It is absolutely just a sales fest on there. All the posts that people are putting on there is like bait and switch. It's like starts off with a nice story about your family, and then it very quickly turns into like, and this is how you need this for your business, and we can help you. And it's, you know, and I found, I find myself doing that sometimes. It's like,

Right,

you know, so I feel like it builds up a bit of fear and a bit of threat response for people because it's like, as soon as I message them and say I've got a problem, I'm going to be buying something before, you know, before I even know what my problem is. It's like, so it's tricky. It's tricky to wade through, wade through all the, all the rubbish out there, all the red pills.

But I do think what you've actually also highlighted there in the way in which you roll, um, and I believe I roll as well, is, um, And I'm going to put a caveat on that and come back to that, is that we are, and so many people are willing to help. We've just got so caught in that trap that we see that we don't— we're actually even more fearful of asking.

Absolutely.

If you ask anybody to help you do anything, if it's nipping next door to the— in my case, only a couple of days ago, nipping to the next-door neighbour and saying, hey, look, I need to go up the ladder to change the light globe in the garage. Would you you mind coming and holding the ladder for me because I don't want to fall off it because I'm likely to when I'm on my own? And, you know, oh yeah, no problems, you know, we'll come over. And the 2 kids came over as well and they were holding the ladder, so it became an adventure for them, you know, you know, and it was exciting and it was just changing a globe up a ladder. And I asked, but so many people don't ask. No, please continue.

Well, that's novelty, right? That's because that was an unusual situation. So I think novelty works in marketing in a massively underutilized. Like, um, there's an experiment, I think it's called the Milgram experiment. Are you familiar with that?

Yeah.

It was, um, they basically, they wanted to do a study on if you could, um, influence people to do something. Um, so they got a bunch of people and they put them in a room, and I won't go into the whole details because it's very long and above my pay grade, but basically they, they realized that novelty was a key. to convincing people to do something good for them in some instances, right? It's not always a bad thing, but you're not manipulating people, but you can help people see clearly. And novelty, the example they used was, you know, if you think back to some cavemen and they're fishing and every day they walk back with their fish to the camp, to the tribe. And one day they're walking past a bush they've walked past hundreds of times before and they hear rustling and a stick snaps. Like that is novel for them. That is novelty. This doesn't normally happen. So everything in their brain goes away and they're hyper-focused on that situation. They're not thinking about their kids or the fish or where they've come from or how tired they are. Everything stops and their brain goes completely into zoned-in focus about that particular situation. So if you think about that from a marketing perspective, like I even, I even got a real estate agent to post some videos they were doing deliberately upside down for the first 5 seconds. Purely because that's novelty, right? When you're scrolling through, that's weird. That stands out. That is different. You double back and check that that is what you really saw, right? So there's lots of like, it's a bit of a gimmick and there's a classy way to do that and a tacky way to do that. But, you know, and I just feel like it's not often that there's much novelty, especially on LinkedIn if you're doing B2B sales and and you're thinking about marketing and content, like, but what you were saying was more like it, that made me think more of like cognitive dissonance, like what you were saying, like in sales and marketing. To me, cognitive dissonance occurs when a customer's experience, when they experience mental discomfort or conflict between their beliefs and a purchase decision. So that then creates resistance. So essentially, If your value and your offer is not clearly identified in an easy way to remember, and more importantly, put in a neat box inside their brain, they will be confused.

Yeah.

And if they're confused, we've got 200 million years of evolutionary hardwiring that when confusion happens, get scared, threat, fear.

Yeah.

So there's a, there's a game we can do here, Sally. So Can you can you can do some ABCs for me? So go up to maybe G as quick as you can. So A B C

D E F G A B C D E F G A B C.

Now now count to ten.

One two three four five six seven eight nine ten.

Cool, easy. Now mix them. So now go for as long as you can, as quick as you can until you make a mistake, and you want to go A one B two C three

B two. C3, D4, E5, F6, G7.

So you've massively slowed down, right? And what you're experiencing there is cognitive dissonance. Those things don't usually go together in that order. So your brain is literally processing the information as opposed to just accepting it. So it's confusing. You know, we need to simplify our marketing and our communication strategy and use more metaphors and analogies and make it easier For people to buy from us,

and understand and understanding. You've just demonstrated that so beautifully. Thank you.

No worries.

Sorry, I've got something percolating there. Coming down here. Wait, just wait for that one.

Am I just waffling here? I feel like I'm just nonsense.

No, no, no, no. So you've talked a lot about marketing and the philosophies, and you've mentioned a couple of your clients, and you're the real estate agent and. You've obviously tied in there with the family, your brother that does the property developments. What are some of the most common, like grassroots common problems that you actually see business owners make? I know we've talked very big picture, but yeah, what are some of the common ones you see people make? Because I want to call them out because I think when somebody such as yourself that has such deep insight into it, you actually are going to really help help people see it and/or hear it for the first time, even though they've—

Yeah, so let's, so let's flip, let's do, let's do this live then. Let's, let's like, you, you tell me what you think they are, and then let's dig into, um, why I think they're happening, how that maps to actually psychological belief system rather than that being the problem. Like, what do you think, what do you think the top like 2, 2, 3 problems are?

So I've, my biggest thing is, um, that I see is people will Overcomplicate, and I'm going to use business growth. So I'm going to move away from marketing. And that comes back to that sort of question, you know, I'm going to do a post or I'm going to create a lead magnet or I'm going to do a landing page and a sequence

versus

I only need 6 people to help me out do this beta program. Why don't I just pick up the phone? Because I know I've got 6 friends, you know, we'll automatically go to that.

So on that as an exact example, then let's unpack that straight away. So when you say overcomplicate, business growth, um, in terms of like they'll do something that's harder than the something that's easier. Is that what you mean?

Yeah, yeah.

So that— how is that not a belief system? How is that not programming as a child that like early bird catches the worm, you know, build it and they will come? All these proverbs, right? They're like, you know, nothing's ever easy in life, money doesn't grow on trees. Like you can't even— so if that's deeply ingrained, you can't even believe that there is an easy way to do something. Even if I show you there's an easy way to do it, you'll still resist that. You'll still feel like now I'm tricking you or I'm lying or this isn't really the truth. So that is a belief. So the biggest problem is regardless of any combination you could have given me there, it will come down to the person in control of that company's belief system is why everything works and why everything fails in that business. Simple as that.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's not a popular answer, right? That's not a nice thing because that means that forces you to look in the ugly mirror. A lot. And that's not something people want to do.

So let's, let's actually expose the ugly mirror. We'll do a little bit of it. Was it Snow White with the witch looks in the mirror? So let's, let's, let's describe and discuss what people are seeing in that mirror.

They're seeing the truth. They're seeing clarity if they're asking the right questions, right? And this is why people go see a therapist, because they know what questions to ask to get you there quickly.

Yeah.

You know, it's difficult to do that alone. Yes. Um, so you're just staring at your reflection and thinking— you're actually probably making it worse because you'll go, you're an imposter. See, you're a failure. You're a loser. You don't know what you're doing. Like, these are— this is the conversation you'll have alone. If you bring me into the room, there's no judgment. Like, can I swear on this?

Go for it. Who

gives a shit, right? Who gives a shit? I don't— I'm not here to judge you. We're all deeply flawed as human beings.

Yes,

but you've got goals and ambition, and I can help you to get there. So it's like, there's no judgment, and people are nervous of that, to put themselves out there. But yeah, so I think, you know, I think that's the biggest problem, is just how you think.

Yeah, yeah, I, I love that, because when you talked about the, you know, uh, when we're looking in the mirror, um, And I remember doing an activity when I was in sales training that we had to, you know, talk to the mirror when we were selling. And I remember when I first had to do that, my experience was, oh my God, he's making me— and this is the conversation I'm having in the mirror. Oh my God, he's making me look at the mirror. I don't want to look at myself. Oh dear, my eyeliner's not on right. Oh, this is just really bad. This is just not going to work. You know, all of this non— what I'm going to call non-self-love and non-empathetic for yourself. Versus when you have that somebody else in the room, even if just in that simplest example, when you've got somebody else in the room that's there with the mirror, straight away you don't start speaking to yourself like that. You actually listen a little bit more and you start to listen and speak and appreciate yourself very, very differently because you're starting to come into the, you know, I'll lean into that truth a little bit. You know, you're moving into that, leaning in.

Especially if they know what questions to ask to get you there.

Correct.

You know, if it's the first time they've held the mirror, that might be a mess, right? That might do more psychological harm and damage than, than help you. But if that person's helped people transition that place in their mind many times, then you know the questions to ask to get to the truth. And I mean, every time I have a meeting with a business owner, this occurs. And every time The answer is the same. It starts with why do you want to do this at all? Why do you even want to fix this problem regardless of what it is? It might be strategy, they want some video content, they need to fix their website, whatever it is. There'll be that initial pain indicator for them. So why do you want to fix that? For X reason. X reasons usually get more customers. So you want to get more customers, right? So why do you want more customers? Make more money. Okay, why do you want more money? Hire some staff. And why do you want to hire staff? So I don't have to fucking work in the business so much.

Yeah.

It's always that. So let's deal with that then first. Let's actually work out like, what is— to use Daniel Priestley, you know, as a, as a total genius in this space— what is your official capacity then? Like, what number does that— what is the set you free number? Because you might not need to go through any of those steps to get there.

Yeah.

You know, it might actually be doing less work, getting less customers, spending less money, getting rid of half of your staff, and actually having a more premium product on a subscription model that will set you free quicker. It might actually be doing no work. Yeah. This is why I say, you know, success in business isn't about doing more. It's about seeing differently.

Yes.

The flip side to that is you may need to do all those things, but at least we've got to the bottom of the truth as to why we're really doing it. And, and that will propel us through when it gets difficult. So I think it's always because I want to go fishing with my son, because I don't get to play golf as much, because my wife is nagging me all the time that we don't do date night. These— this is the real motivator behind it. So if we can get past all the marketing fluff and all the bullshit that everybody else would say about marketing, about your pixels and your cookies and your retargeting, and let's set up this funnel and some squeeze pages and blah blah blah. Yeah. If you're doing all of those things for the wrong reason, Then you're delusional, and I don't want to play a part in helping you waste your money.

Yeah, yeah, I love that. Getting back to the simplistic truth and finding— I'm going to use the term finding your flow. And that takes a great strategist with a very keen insight that knows the right questions to ask to simplify the process based on what you're really wanting to achieve. And that To me was exactly what I saw in you when we first spoke earlier in the week. So I'm glad that you've been able to express that so beautifully. So thank you. We're getting—

There is another, there is another quick book plug there for that, to unpack that more. It's called How to Run Your Own Life. It's actually a very hard book to find. It's also about transaction analysis, but it's probably the best book there is on how people think, but nobody knows about it. How to Run Your Own Life. It's by an author called Jut Meininger. Um, very hard to find. I tried to buy a physical copy and it was about $6,000 on Amazon because it's so rare. Um, but that book will completely change your life regardless of where you're at in your business. Um, it's— the principle is a Martian comes to Earth, and that Martian represents basically a TA therapist. It helps you see clearly. And over the book, as you see more clearly, he disappears and stops asking you questions. And you realize you've actually developed the ability to self-critique why you do what you do. But there's examples in there that directly map to a business context. Like if you're afraid to talk to strangers because your parents told you don't talk to strangers, that's now your nurturing or critical parent programming your child brain that there's a threat when you talk to strangers. As soon as you get into a networking scenario or a sales scenario, if you still believe that strangers are to be feared, you're not going to go up to anyone and talk to anyone. So understanding this is critical in business. And, um, yeah, get some— get these books and read them.

Read them from there. Now I'm going to, um, just wind things down in the last couple of minutes. We, um, the show's obviously talking about legacy and helping people, um, craft their legacy in simpler ways, which is what we've actually talked about today as well. So what sort of type of legacy do you hope to leave? I know I pretty much know what it is for the clients, but what is it for Alfie and Louis?

Look, when I think about legacy, it's not about awards or monuments or headlines. It's the seeds that I plant in my sons. To me, legacy starts at home, in the quiet moments where I have this incredible chance to program them in the right ways. I take that responsibility very seriously, to give them the right information and the right mindsets that I know they will need. I want them to think differently, to see the world not just as it is, but how it could be, the possibilities and the opportunities they have, because that's where creativity and real change live. So I'm raising them to believe in themselves and to have an acute awareness of the challenges that are out there and how they could fix them. If I can give them that foundation, that courage to question and build and believe in themselves, then they'll stand poised to take the knowledge I've shared and amplify it in ways that I can't even imagine. So that's my mark. That's the legacy. Not something carved in stone, but something alive in them, growing through their choices and their innovations and, and their impact. So legacy isn't what I'll leave behind; it's what they'll carry forward to me.

Beautifully said. And how can people best get in contact with you?

You can go to my website. I've got a, got a landing page there. So it's in the thing here, toddstar.co.nz. I've developed a health check Because I like these surgeon and doctor analogies. I'm selling surgery, not vitamins or painkillers. So you can go on there and fill out the quiz, and it'll give you some things you didn't know about yourselves. And I'll be able to get in contact with you from there if I think I can help. It takes about 7 minutes. It's totally free.

Lovely. It's been an absolute pleasure sharing a conversation with you today. Thank you so much for your insights. There's lots and lots of gold nuggets there, and obviously there's a great opportunity for people to connect with you, to discover more through the work that you do on LinkedIn, but more importantly, jumping onto that website and going through the process so you can actually discover more and understand more before we get into the deep dive. Again, Todd, an incredible conversation. Your way of articulating, storytelling, and sharing with the world is phenomenal. Your children are very lucky, and I look forward to hearing more about what they're doing as they grow up as well. So thank you so much for sharing with me today. Greatly appreciate it. Thank you.

Thanks for having me, Sally. Appreciate it too.

You're very welcome. Thank you everyone, and we will look forward to seeing you again on another episode of Success Secrets Exposed. Till then, Have a great day. Take care.

Remember, if you want to be sought after and sold out, as well as being known as the obvious expert in your industry, you need to speak with Sally, our host of Success Secrets Exposed. Sally is the founder of Monetize Your Content, a done-for-you content marketing agency that helps you be easy to buy. See you next week on another episode of Success Secrets Exposed. Secrets Exposed. Tune in live every Tuesday at 7 PM Eastern Time or Wednesday mornings in Australia on W4CY Radio and Talk 4 TV.