Success Secrets Exposed - Finding Your Resilience

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Welcome to Success Secrets Exposed with Sally A. Curtis, where we share stories of challenge, success, and inspiration along with practical tips and strategies to move you forward to your success. And now here is your host, Sally A. Curtis.

Good evening, good morning, and g'day to you all. Welcome to another episode of Success Secrets Exposed, and thank you once again for joining me. For those that are new to the show, I'm a marketing strategist for speakers, coaches, and consultants specializing in content repurposing, which is the gift of turning your existing content into new, profitable, bite-sized graphic visuals that help you engage and attract new clients. It's my role to help you amplify your voice, your message, and your impact. And today we're very much going to be talking about impact. We're going to be talking about finding your resilience with Gray Robinson today. Now Gray is a third-generation lawyer, a writer, a speaker, a mentor, consultant, and coach to lawyers and the professionals who are in that legal arena. He spent 27 years practicing law and then hit a wall, became overwhelmed, stressed, and full of anxiety. He actually then went on in 2004 to actually quit due to stress and burnout, and since then has devoted his life to helping lawyers and their clients and clients deal with stress and the pressures of practicing law. Gray is the creator and founder of Lawyer Lifeline, a restorative program that guides legal professionals from anxiety and stress to that fulfillment and passion. And one of the quotes that Gray has on his website is, you, you don't have to be a strong, silent, suffering, nervous wreck. And I know even I've been that at different times, and I can only imagine what that's like in the space. He wants you to be remembered. He wants you to remember why you became a lawyer in the first place, which is often to have fun and more importantly help people. So we're going to be taking you on a journey of resilience and helping yourself and others. So please help me welcome Gray Robinson to the show.

Hey, Sally.

Hey, welcome.

I'm so happy to be here. I, uh, do a lot of radio shows and yours is very, very popular, so I'm, I'm happy to be on your show.

Thank you very, very much. I appreciate, um, that we've been connected for a while and we finally have got this opportunity to share and connect. Um, and I know you've got such a fabulous, um, heart and a very, very giving person, but I'm really also curious to share your backstory story as well as the results that you create with our audience. So would you mind sharing a little bit of your backstory of what lawyering was like for you and what your third-generation pedigree entailed?

Well, not at all. I was a trial lawyer. And that was a civil trial lawyer. I didn't do much criminal work simply because the type of clientele you get is just— it takes a very special mindset to be able to represent criminal defendants a lot. And I preferred to, uh, do contract cases or corporate cases or domestic cases or hidden, you know, personal injury cases, corporate fraud cases, all that kind of civil litigation. And in 2004, when I was been doing it for almost 27 years, uh, I got to where I woke up one morning and I couldn't get out of bed. It was, you know, from all objective standpoints, I was at the top of my game. I mean, I was making— in fact, I just had a million-dollar verdict in a case. Um, and unfortunately, you know, the reason that I became a lawyer, uh, wasn't enough anymore. Mm-hmm. And quite frankly, looking back on it, you know, I think I became a lawyer to please my parents, which happens quite a bit. You know, a lot of people become lawyers because their parents have pushed them, prodded and guided and, and pointed and, you know, think that that is, uh, you know, the perfect job. And the, the problem with it is that most lawyers are not really trained to deal with the pressure. Mm-hmm. Because lawyers have an incredible amount of responsibility to their clients, to their colleagues, to the public. And if you're not prepared, if you don't have the mindset to handle That responsibility, it can become devastating. And that's what happened to me because I was sitting there and just couldn't do it anymore. I was— it was almost a— I don't know if it was a nervous breakdown or not, but it was pretty close to one. Yeah. And I quit with just simply because I couldn't go into work. I mean, I was That, um, distressed. And so I began a journey of trying to find out why that happened to me, because like I said, I was very successful. I was very highly rated. I was one of the most popular lawyers. You were a lawyer. Yeah. And the thing that I was not aware of then, which I'm very aware of now, is my Didn't have the proper mindset. Right. You know, we all, uh, have childhoods, and we all grow up through our adolescent and young adult years and going through school and getting an education and competing and making good grades and getting a good job. And we think that's all, you know, we've done it, we've arrived. That's It's going to be easy from now on.

Yeah.

And, and the problem was is that the stuff just hit the fan when I started practicing law, because you're— most people are not prepared mentally and emotionally for the nature of the— of a law practice. Yeah. And, um, now there certainly are lots of lawyers who are very healthy. They've got a great Mind-body-spirit connection. They're, you know, they're balanced in their life approach and they are having fun.

Yeah.

Unfortunately, I wasn't one of those people because it, you know, the thing that happens to many lawyers is that when they go through the educational process, it's all about competition. It's all about being the best. It's all about doing it perfectly. And, uh, you know, and it gets— some people get to the point where their, their mind takes on a perspective that is called perfectionism. Yes. And that's not a good thing.

Yeah.

And so, and what becomes, uh, the problem is, is that any mistake, no matter how small, is devastating.

Yeah.

And, or if you get an adverse result It's devastating because that's not per— perfection.

Mm-hmm.

And so you're sitting there and no lawyer is gonna win every case.

Mm-hmm.

It's just, that's not the nature of the beast. And so you have to be able to have a bigger picture in order to understand that it's not, um, the end of the world to get an adverse result. We never know, you know. Unfortunately, we don't have a big enough perspective to know in the, in the general scheme of things whether or not we got the right result or not. Because, you know, sometimes when we lose a case, it actually ends up having a positive result on down the line.

Yeah.

And one thing I've noticed is that in some of my cases, it was really, uh, detrimental to my client to win. Because, you know, a lot of times people don't take responsibility for their conduct if they, you know, if they are victimized or whatever and go into a lawsuit and win and get a lot of money. That just reinforces their behavior of how they got into trouble in the first place.

Nice.

Yeah. So it's really important that lawyers understand that, well, sometimes you got— may have gotten an adverse result, but that was actually the best thing in the world for your client.

Sorry. Well,

I was just going to say, and the other perspective is that a lot of lawyers don't know how to ask for help.

Yes.

They, they, you know, there's— they've been conditioned through their educational process to be very competitive, to be the best, to do the best, uh, and not ask for help, because asking for help is a sign of weakness.

Yes.

For some people. And so one thing that's been fascinating to me on this journey is the things that I've learned About the neurology of the brain and, you know, our, uh, way— the way we think creates our reality. Yes. And, uh, if it's kind of like the thing a lot of people don't realize is when we say mind-body connection, that means that the body can determine how the mind is working and the mind can determine how the body is working. So if you've got a problem or, you know, negative thinking syndrome and you're always taking the worst, thinking of the worst possible scenario, uh, worst-case scenario thinking, then your body is going to react to that. Mm-hmm. And so you're going to start feeling unwell. You're going to start, you know, the stress causes chemical reactions in the body, which is normal for us. A problem with it is we're not supposed to be on high alert all the time.

Correct.

So what happens is people, uh, get to DEFCON 5, if you know what that is, and they stay there.

Yeah.

Indefinitely. And what happens is our body produces adrenaline and cortisol, which is a negative spiral that affects both our body and our thinking.

Yeah.

So that it kind of constantly reinforced, negatively reinforces that cycle, and we become burnt out. That's literally— burnout is exhaustion. Yeah. Because we— our body has just, uh, produced so much cortisol and adrenaline, our muscles literally burn out. And our mind, which is affected by the body, gets burnt out as well because we've been overthinking everything. Yeah.

I think you've said that really well there, that overthinking everything. I'm sitting here nodding because for myself, I've had burnout a couple of times in my career. And I've had that— we used to call it adrenal fatigue. So in my case, it was that. I won't admit to the perfectionism, um, but I'll certainly admit to the, um, you know, that rushing woman syndrome and, you know, the, the quest to, to be achieving, not always necessarily the best, but always be achieving. So I was a, you know, high, high-level executive and I had dressage horses. So I used to compete on the weekend. So we had a double dose of an addictive personality there that was that whole competition, um, scenario. Um, and I did actually experience muscle meltdown as part of one of those processes, which is, as you've explained, is what was going on within the body. But I find it really interesting because when you do, and I can really, really paint the picture so well of what goes on for lawyers, because they do get into that wanting to win and it becomes about, you know, the next, the win and the feeding of that and not asking for help because you almost Uh, in my case, and I'm imagining this is a bit similar, you almost isolate yourself because of the competitive nature and the fact that you're just, you know, doing more and getting into that sort of, I call it that drive, drive, drive, that you just, just literally wear yourself out. And I sort of think of those, you know, when an engine gets stuck on or a generator gets stuck on and all you hear is that. Yeah. It doesn't change speed at all. It just, just keeps going. And then all of a sudden it just goes Which is obviously what you experienced by the sounds of things when you couldn't get out of bed that day to return to work.

Yes, exactly. And, you know, and there's other— there's some other aspects of this that people probably may or may not be aware of, and that is that a lot of people, or some people rather, um, experience this stress, and if it's constant, if it's 24/7, It actually can result in trauma. There's, you know, there's direct trauma where you either— something happens to you or happens to a close friend that you care very much about, or just a random stranger. You just happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time and you witness something that is horrible and/or horrifying. And that's, you know, you think of first-line responders.

Absolutely.

You think of military people. Uh, you think of people that see tragedy day in, day out, healthcare workers, and it's like the problem is, is that you can get just as devastated with the slow drip, drip, drip of indirect trauma.

Mm-hmm.

You know, just witnessing trauma or hearing about trauma. A lot of, a lot of law firms that I work with are, you know, their staff is traumatized just as much as the lawyers because they are working with these clients who have been horribly maimed or, you know, hurt in some way, or they have had some kind of an experience that is really tragic. Mm-hmm. And you work with this day in and day out, and eventually they burn out too.

Yeah.

The staff burns out too because it is not just one thing that causes any big stress in your life, but it is a little bit every day that continually keeps that cortisol cycle going and it does not allow you to manage that at all. And so the people that have to deal with that kind of stress really need some strategies on how to, uh, reboot. In other words, how do you turn off and allow your body to reset

and

rest and go back and do it another day? You know, it's kind of like it used to be, we would think that, uh, well, we just go on a vacation and that's going to make everything all right. Vacation. Well, in my case, the only thing I, I've, you know, gone— I may go on vacation, but my mind doesn't stop thinking about work. And so it was really, uh, you know, it really wasn't a vacation. It was just kind of— it was a vacation for my family, but it wasn't for me. Yeah. So, um, anyway, you can't get away from it. And so what people need to learn is how not just to go on an isolated vacation for a week and expect anything to be different when they get back. Yeah. What they need to do is have a daily practice of allowing your brain to relax and your body to relax and to start focusing. It's, it's really a biological issue, uh, of how do you get your brain to start, um, producing melatonin, serotonin, and endorphins. Because those are the feel-good hormones that our brain produces that allows us to reboot and reset and allows us to sleep. You know, one complaint that constantly get from lawyers is that they can't sleep or they don't get much sleep because they're so stressed out. And that's because your body's producing all of this cortisol and adrenaline. The wrong ones.

Yeah.

And it keeps— it literally keeps you awake because you're on high alert. And you don't go to sleep, and that's very destructive, uh, to our bodies. And so it's conversely, how you treat your body has a lot to do with what kind of chemicals are you producing in your body.

Mm-hmm.

Not only does the stress create adrenaline and cortisol, but if you're eating a lot of toxic food, And your processed food, snacks, whatever, you know, crap diet, and you are putting all of these toxins in your body, then your body has the same reaction to that as it does to the stress. And the mind can't tell the difference. Hmm. The mind can't tell the difference. Well, am I feeling out of sorts and stressed because of the food, or am I feeling out of sorts and stressed because of my life circumstances.

Yeah, so it's sort of feeding each other, isn't it?

That just makes it worse. And then of course you gain weight, you lose your self-image, and you just— everything just kind of piles on. So you need to consider everything that's happening in your life in order to find that resilience that you're going to need to be in a stressful job. I mean, people Yes, it's a high-risk, high-reward profession, but most people come out of law school with an ideal that they're going to help the world. You know, they have a very altruistic attitude. We're going to go and we're going to right this wrong. We're going to help people. We're going to change the system. We're going to do all this. And 30 years later, you're just, you know, a puddle of nervous agitation. And so the problem is, is that along the way we forget why we became a lawyer, and it becomes about— it all becomes about winning. It all becomes about being successful. It all becomes about making, you know, getting clients in. It all— who's making the most money?

Yeah, who's the rainmaker?

So it's like, I, I always would ask myself, is there anybody in this entire world that's not— I'm not competing with? Because it seems like I'm competing with the adverse counsel, obviously. I'm, you know, the opposite party. I'm competing with them, uh, competing with the judge who is trying to understand why I'm arguing what I'm arguing. And so I have to convince the judge that I'm right. Um, I have to, uh, compete with my colleagues, not only just the bar in general, but the people who are my partners, because we're all, you know, scrabbling for pieces of pie. And, you know, so you have to— you're competing with your partners for how much money you make. Yeah. So it goes on and on and on. And it's got— the problem with it is, is that we are hardwired. Human beings are hardwired for connection to other human beings. We— if they've done hundreds of studies on isolation and the effects on the, on the brain and the body, uh, especially with solitary confinement.

Yeah. Yeah.

People in prison. And what they find is that it is lethal. But, you know, isolating yourself and cutting off any connection to other people, any meaningful connection to other people, is— excuse me— very detrimental to your health.

Yeah, which has come out of COVID too. There's been a lot of discussion around the different levels of varying isolation when people were in lockdown. We've had 18 months of lockdown in some of our states here in Australia. And obviously that was affecting the mental health because people couldn't go out and connect with people. And the, you know, the Zoom connection's not always what people are needing at a deep level. So I can really appreciate that. Um, and that's where the, you know, you get that isolate, you get that you've got people, you're surrounded by people in your practice, but you're actually sort of isolating yourself by the sounds of things because of that competitive nature and it just ends up in that spiral. Can I just ask one question that just came up as it related to— because you spoke about the staff and the fact that they're sort of surrounded by different variations of trauma as well. And that really hit home for me because that's something you don't actually think about. You understand that the lawyers are in it, But you don't realise the girl that may be doing the photocopying or the receptionist or, you know, those other people that are the significant support people. You just think they're in a support role, but you're not realising all those little drip feeds of how they're affected by trauma. Because when I was reading your bio, I found it interesting. I was almost tripping over a little bit that you talked about the lawyers, but you also talked about the people in the lawyer practice. And I hadn't actually joined the dots of where the significant was. As it related to resilience for everyone within the legal practice, all those people that are supporting the lawyers. And you've got— with the conversation that you've shared, you've given me an incredible insight around that. So thank you.

Yeah. And, you know, they are— they can be just as stressed out as the lawyers because they take pride in what they do. They want to do a good job. They understand how important their role is. You know, they don't want to make a mistake either. And I've had several clients who were— their, you know, their lawyer sent them— sent the paralegal to me because they were starting to crash and burn and making mistakes.

Yeah.

Because they were so stressed out. And so we got all that sorted out and they're doing very well, but Again, it's all, you know, when we talk about mindset, it's really one of the most incredible journeys. Part of this journey is learning how the mind works, learning how the brain works. Because I, I just went through rotator cuff surgery and, uh, for some torn muscles in my shoulder, and it's like I was hurting in places I— that shouldn't have been painful. I mean, like, my hand would hurt, my elbow would hurt. The injury was to my shoulder.

Yeah,

but my elbow hurt. And it's like— and that's because the brain was perceiving the signals it was getting from the shoulder as coming from the elbow.

Yeah.

And so this fan of pain was a perfect illustration of what the brain does when it's surrounded by trauma. They call it compassion fatigue.

I was just going to ask you to expand on that. Well done. You're preempting me, Gray. I

love it. Well, it's the— and it's a real thing because when we perceive things to be horrible, then we're going— our body reacts to that and if you have any compassion or empathy in your body at all, then you're going to feel that.

Yeah.

And so, and then that starts that cycle of either negative hormones or positive hormones, so that you have to be very conscious about the fact and be aware of the fact that if something bothers you, that it's having a biological effect on your body That can cause mental and emotional fatigue. And it is because it is kind of ironic in a way because we crash and burn because we care.

Yes. Yeah.

You know, because if we did not care, it would be no problem. Yeah. You know, you— I do not feel your pain at all. To change Billy, what is his name, Clinton's famous line, I feel your pain. Well, actually, if you don't feel your pain, then you're just fine and dandy.

Yeah.

You can be objective, you can be hard and resilient, and it doesn't bother you. But resilience, most people probably don't have a proper understanding of the word resilience. Resilience is the ability to bounce back.

Back.

It's not the ability to avoid the pitfalls altogether. It's the fact that when you trip and fall, you get back up. And so, um, there's nothing wrong in tripping and falling. That kind of comes with the territory of being a human being. But the, um, when you're aware of all of these different things that are going on in your brain and your body and how you perceive something. Um, they, they say that all perception is projection,

and

what that means is if you've just— if you're thinking about yellow Volkswagens, you're just going to see yellow Volkswagens all over the place.

Yeah.

Um, and that becomes your reality. So if you've got subconscious thoughts and decisions roaming around in your subconscious, what I call the basement. See, uh, those thoughts are actually affecting how you perceive your world.

Yeah.

And so let's say, for example, you came to the conclusion early on in your life that life was hard or life was painful. Guess what you're going to get when you start interacting with the world? You're going to find that pain, and you are going to struggle because you want to make your— your subconscious wants to be right.

Yes.

Yeah. It will cause you to think in ways that you will prove to yourself life is hard and life is painful.

Yeah. Yeah.

So in a way, I— my programs address the subconscious mind. Which is really cool, and it helps you to replace that. You know, it's called cognitive behavioral therapy, and so what you're doing is you're changing your perception of the world so that it's not threatening. Because, you know, a lot of times we see something and our, our reaction is, is that's threatening.

Mm-hmm.

Or it has the potential to be threatening. And in fact, if you look at it totally objectively, it is just what it is.

Yeah.

It has nothing to do with you. And so if, if I can get people to understand that not everything is their fault, yeah, not everything is wrong, not everything is a problem,

yeah,

it's just we're here having fun learning and laughing as we go.

Yeah. And that process there where you've talked about the cognitive therapy and changing the perspective, because what I found really interesting in that part of the conversation was when you talk about resilience and that it's that bouncing back, but it's very— and this is where the shift needs to occur— when you've got perfectionism going on and mistakes are devastating and you're not wanting to ask for help, It's very hard to bounce back because you're actually, you've actually got nowhere to bounce because you, you, you, you're in this, in this, as you said, that sort of downward cycle because you're not wanting to ask for help. Uh, mistakes of any form are, you know, devastating. You're highly competitive and on edge. So you'd literally, A, like you've expressed, somebody, um, sent one of their, um, paralegals to you. So somebody witnessed for that lovely person that they were, they were having a challenge and she needed somebody to help literally flick the switch almost. So when people come to you, and I know you've got such great results because I was reading, you know, how people, how people have said that you've helped them find their way back to being successful and happy. Um, but how do people recognize in themselves that they're needing to flick the switch? Is it, is it because they've got to that point of burnout and now they know they need help or someone's witnessed it? witnessing problems and seeing a difference in the personality that they're then able to suggest them and refer them to you? Because I know I'm asking this because I know, um, from my own experience of having burnout a couple of times, clearly I've repeated the same bad habits the second time around because I didn't learn the lessons the first time around.

Right, right.

So I didn't learn the lessons of what I needed to change to bounce back, but bounce back differently, to, to have a different set of tools to help me actually bounce forward, uh, more. So I'm curious to explore, you know, that with you. How do, um, how do people show up when they, when they come to you firstly, as far as, you know, what shifted in their, in the awareness for them that they actually are A, ready to ask for help and B, more importantly, know that they need help?

Uh, marketing.

Yeah. Yeah. They just, I've had enough now.

I speak, I speak to a lot of bar associations.

Yes.

Um, you know, the thing is, is that the bar in the, in the United States is very much aware of this problem. The problem is they don't have the tools to deal with it.

Right. Beautiful.

The, you know, that's up to me to who— and I've been trained to do this, and so I know what I'm doing. But a lot of lawyers know, they just think that's the way it is, you know. They, they don't understand It doesn't have to be that way. Yeah, a lot of people are what we call white-knuckling it. They're just hanging on.

Yes,

uh, hoping that one day something's going to get better. Well, the thing is, as Albert Einstein once said, you can't change a problem with the same thinking that created it.

Correct.

So you have to change your thinking, and there's a lot of behavioral scientists will tell you that sociologists, psychologists, psychiatrists, mental health experts will all tell you that what you think is what is going to manifest.

Yeah.

And so a lot of times I, I find people who, you know, when I do my talks to bar associations, I have facts and figures and charts and whatever, and so to tell them and show them What is happening to them. There is a reason why people burn out, and it is actually the body protecting itself against perceived threat.

Yeah.

Our bodies shut down in order to protect us. And so, uh, it's entirely natural for people to burn out if they don't have proper, um, balancing and safeguards in place to make it— make all of it make sense. And so, uh, I give— you know, what I do is I help— we do kind of like one of the most thorough background studies you could possibly get. We get down to the nitty-gritty about, um, how you think about things. And one of the things I love about neurolinguistic programming is that words matter.

Yes.

And so when you start looking into what do you feel, why do you feel that way, and when was the first time you felt that way, and what happened the first time you felt that way, and then you can get really get into the psychology and the subconscious, um, mind and see where the demons are in your basement. Because there's a reason why we do that, and it is usually a thought We call it a root cause, but there's, there's some kind of belief in your subconscious mind that has created—

A story. Yeah.

Yeah, it's creating this problem, and it's not real. It's an illusion. So, uh, that's why one, you know, one lawyer can be in a situation and have the time of his life. He enjoys it. He just loves the battle. My father was that way. He was a military man, and he just loved the battle. He would rather argue than, uh, anything.

Yeah.

And that's not so great a parenting tool, but as far as, uh, learning how to, how to get your way and how to manipulate people, he was very, very successful at that, just unconsciously. Um, and that's a large part of what I do is try to help people see where there are prejudices and there are biases. And there's, you know, we all have our biases no matter, you know, where— if we have a brain, then we have biases. Yeah. And so, and there are tests that you can take to find out what your biases, unknown implicit biases, are. And, uh, you can go online, Google implicit bias, and there's a test that the Harvard school came up with that you can take, and it will—

Just frozen, um, so we're just waiting for you to come back online, Gray.

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Oh, thanks. We've just went to a quick commercial break there because we just, uh, lost Gray. So while we're just waiting for him to come back, I want to continue the conversation with you. Now, Gray was talking about, I suppose, the root cause and how we have all of these little stories that we create for ourselves that create biases and prejudices. And I wanted to share one with me because you might have noticed while he was sharing that story, I actually had a little bit of a chuckle to myself. And it's one of those, you know, typical older brother stories. My older brother had told me for years that I was born on the kitchen table. And I had been believing this all, all the way along, even though that I knew that there was little pieces of evidence to sort of implicate that that might not have actually been correct. But because my brother was so influential in my life and all those sorts of things, it wasn't until I was in my mid-30s that it actually dawned on me that he was absolutely telling me utter crap and that it wasn't actually true. He was just ultimately being an annoying brother that was teasing me. But I had chosen to take that story on as truth. And it became a story that I continued to tell myself. And I have another one that just relates to that, that a girlfriend shared with me. She, she had a lawnmower. And we were talking about bringing the lawnmower up to my house. And she said, oh no, I can't. It won't fit. The lawnmower won't fit in the car. And I sort of went, no, no, no, it must fit in the car because the handles will collapse down. You'll be able to fold it. No, no, no, no, I can't do that, she said. I can't do that, she said. Because she'd never actually seen her husband actually fold the handles down. And she was biased to the fact that they actually could be folded down, which of course, when she actually explored the fact, because I was adamant that they could be and she was adamant that they couldn't be, but she was open enough to explore it, that she actually realized that they could be folded down. And I remember her saying to me, oh my God, I've always thought that you couldn't, I couldn't put it in the car or I couldn't do things with it because I didn't know that these folded down. So it's interesting how we bring these biases or these root stories into our life and take them on as truths, even though they may be only half-truths or not truths at all. So I do find that a little bit interesting as it relates to some of those things that we do tell ourselves and how we can find and discover the truth through some good evidence stacking of ourselves, um, as well as finding, um, the truth out by going and doing some self-discovery or unpacking some of the stories or beliefs that we have around and about ourselves. So let's just see how we're going with, uh, Gray there. May have actually lost him, um, completely, um, at this stage. So let me just jump on to his website just to give you a little bit more insight of some of the things that I wanted to share with, with you. And that was some of the testimonials, some of the things that people were actually sharing and saying about him, which I found absolutely fascinating. Some of the comments were, you know, you turned scary times into positive times for me. Um, the other one that I mentioned previously was, was that you helped me find my way back from being very success— uh, from to being successful and happy again. So if you want to find more about, about how and in which ways, uh, Gray can actually either help you if you're, uh, in the, uh, business of practicing law, or if you have support staff in your practice that are struggling a little bit with burnout, perhaps you've noticed, um, some of the, you know, their work is fluctuating a little bit, or they've got a little bit extra moody, or they're looking a little bit more stressed. I think it's a really great time and to reflect as we go into Christmas, you know, reflect and see how people are going, going, going around us, how they're actually doing. So you can connect with, um, Gray Robinson at lawyerlifeline.net. You can certainly have a look at a whole array of testimonials, video testimonials from the clients that he has in And I think it's really, really important to remember why you got into the business of practicing law or supporting people that practice law, and that was to help others. But in that process, if you've experienced compassion fatigue and are needing somebody to help you guide you forward to find the happiness and for you to bounce back to being more resilient. If you're experiencing stress, there is somebody that understands what you have actually gone through or are going through that can actually help you rewire and recreate the life that you are actually looking for. So with that, what we will do now is actually end the show a little couple of minutes early, and I will look forward to seeing you very, very soon again next week. And we'll perhaps go to a quick commercial as we exit the show. Thank you so much for joining us. And please do connect with Gray via lawyerlifeline.net. Thank you very much. Take care.

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