5 Business Ideas To Start Today With $0 ft. Shark Tank's Sabri Suby

Today I'm talking to Sabri Suby. He is kind of like the Australian Gary Vee. He's got a marketing agency. He's on Shark Tank Australia and he's a fun guy. I wanted to brainstorm with him businesses that he would start today. So next 18 months, where is the opportunity that he sees? If you're starting from scratch, you got no resources, maybe no experience or capital to start with, how would he still make it? Because this is a guy who took his laptop and basically built one of Australia's biggest growth agencies. And I wanted to hear what he would do today. So we brainstorm ideas and then at the end we talk about some of his sales philosophies, because he's a very good sales guy, and, um, also some of his life philosophies, how, how he lives his life a little bit differently than most. So enjoy this episode with Sabri Sugi. What's— what are some ideas or business ideas that you are excited about right now? So trends that you're seeing, opportunities you see. If you weren't doing what you're doing right now, what things would you be interested in? What businesses would you go create?

So I've got a few and I'll start from like, I'll lead up to the best one, what I think the best opportunities are, right? So I would say the, the, the first thing that would be a very, very compelling offer is when you're running a business and you start with one traffic channel, right? And you kind of start with one traffic channel, you make an offer, you get something working. It might be Google Ads, it might might be Twitter ads, it might be, you know, TikTok, it doesn't matter what it is. You run with one channel, you see some success, and then, you know, you got sales coming in, customers are coming in. And like a lot of businesses, there's always so much more opportunities that are flying by you. And it seems like the bigger that you get and the more success that you have, the more illustrious that these opportunities are. And the challenge is that focus is the main thing when— what I have found when running businesses, because I had shiny object syndrome really, really badly in the of my career, and that's where I had these ups and downs, and I made money, and then I lost all my money, and then I had to do everything again. And it was all because I lacked focus, and I was just looking for the next new sexy sales channel or the next new business model. And so that's something that I see for a lot of businesses, and they know that they need to focus on one thing, so they focus on one traffic channel, but as a result of that, they also then say no to a lot of opportunities. So I think that a very good opportunity right now is to reach out to businesses that are running ads on a platform, whether it be Google, and say, hey, you got your funnel here, it's all dialed in, it's obviously working, but I noticed that you're not running any Facebook ads, right? And that's always, always because they need a team, they need expertise, they need to do something, or they tried it and it didn't work because they tried to use the same funnel they were using on Google Ads on Facebook. From hot traffic to cold traffic and it didn't work. And you just say, look, I'm going to do everything for you. Don't pay me a cent. I'm going to build the funnel. I'm going to run the ads. I'm going to show you that this works. And I just want a percentage of the sales, right? From this traffic channel. There's no, there's no risk and it's only going to result in something if it's actually proven. And I think there's so many platforms that you can do that with. There's a lot of people that are like really all in on Facebook ads right now, right? And Meta ads. And they're kind of waiting to see what happens with TikTok and the ban, and they're not really running that yet. Well, you could come to those people and be like, awesome. What we're going to do is we are going to run TikTok as a platform for you, right? We're going to build the funnel because what a lot of people don't understand is there's different compliance for TikTok and Facebook. So we're going to build all of that for you. We're going to run the ads. We're going to do everything. You're not doing it right now. And we just want 10% override and we'll do everything.

Nice. And so what do you think of, what do you call that, that pitch where it's not like, it's like a reverse sell basically, or you're, it's a killer offer where you're offering them something that they'd be, they'd be a fool to say no to, right? It's a no-brainer. Do you have a phrase for that? Cause I know you're good with coining terms around this.

Yeah, I call it the Godfather offer, right? So it's like making, making like, you know, your prospects an offer that they simply can't refuse. And when I think back now to like all of the roles that I had, that, you know, the companies were crushing it. They were growing very, very quickly. They were all had a very, very strong offer. Like that was the one thing that was the throughput to all of that.

We had the same thing happen in e-commerce. A lot of stores are on Shopify that are not on Amazon. And what you can do is you can go to every Shopify store that's not on Amazon and a very simple pitch, a very kind of rinse and repeat pitch. You basically would search for a Shopify store above X in traffic, which you can go use SimilarWeb or whatever to— the Chrome extension will just tell you that. And you say, great, you reach out to them cold. We can always get the business owner's email and you say, hey, notice you're not on Amazon right now, probably because it's a big lift. It's kind of operationally intensive. You don't know where to do blah, blah, blah. Um, but I did a little research and 3 of your competitors are on Amazon. There's another tool that will tell you how much somebody's selling. So you say, your competitors are doing $1 million a month on Amazon right now. And actually there's low competitiveness for this keyword. I think there's, I think you're leaving X dollars on the table. It'll take some time to ramp up, but I can do that for you. Leave the items in your warehouse. You don't even need to ship it to Amazon yet. We can start simple and then we can get more complicated once it starts to show results. And you could pick up, you know, $5K a month, $10K a month clients. And, you know, 10 $5K a month clients is $50,000 a month that really one person who understands Amazon FBA could do. And to understand Amazon FBA is like, you're 4 months away from being good enough to operate this for one store. And then you do it for 2 stores. By the time you do it for 2 stores, you could do it, you, you'll be able to do it for 10. You'll just have to hire a couple people. And so I think that That's another example of people just find a group, find a class of businesses that are not on a channel and make them a custom killer offer, or as you call it, a Godfather offer to do business with you.

Exactly. Yeah. And I think that that is something that is not a lot of people are talking about, and it is a very nice shoe-in. You're already being able to identify a group of people that would be a perfect candidate for what it is that you've got. That have money, right? But they don't have time and they don't have the expertise in that channel and just bringing that to them and making it, um, a very—

mistake here is people try to do this for podcasters. They're like, hey, you should be posting clips or you should do this. I'll do it for you. And then what they forget is that most podcasters don't have any money or they don't have enough. They don't make enough money on a podcast to be able to do this. And so you want to go fish in a pond where something like e-commerce works because if an e-commerce store is still in business 3 years later, it's making money. And, and for them, it's very easy to say why they should do this new channel because it will also generate money right away. You can make a strong case for why Amazon is worth it because it'll generate revenue from day one. Whereas posting your podcast clips on TikTok is kind of silly because you're not necessarily going to get money or even podcast subscribers from it.

Yeah, it's harder to justify the sale, right? Like if you're giving someone an ROI, it's a much easier sell than just like, Here's another expense just to get clips chopped up for you, and you already don't have no money.

All right, what's idea 2?

So idea number 2 is I think this would probably be the place that I start— I would start if I didn't have any skills. And so one thing that's present right now is that CPMs on Facebook are through the roof, and there's only pretty much one certainty other than death and taxes, and that is that the cost to advertise next year is going to be more expensive than this year, and it's going to keep going up. And it's going to keep going up. And so what's happening right now is a lot of these SaaS businesses that have these CACs that are very high, they're really feeling the pinch and their payback period's gone from 6 months to 12 months to 18 months. Right. I think I read a report the other day about Salesforce and their payback period is something crazy now, like 24 months or something, or even longer than that.

Yes. 2 or 3 years, I think it was.

2 or 3 years. Right. And so that is going to continue. People are going to continue to feel that pinch. So I think that, you know, as long as that continues to happen, there is going to be an arbitrage with people that can actually deliver people, customers with a lower CAC. And so a great way to, to do that is that a lot of these businesses, whether it's HubSpot or GoHighLevel, ClickFunnels, Hiros, all these guys, they offer insane affiliate commissions, right? Um, I believe HubSpot's affiliate commission is 40%. Which is just astronomically high. So what I would do is I have that in dollar terms roughly.

What do you think that is? What do you think that means to deliver a customer? So this is the HubSpot affiliate is basically the, the bottom tier of it. It says is 30% recurring up to 1 year. And so I don't know what the, um, the average price point is for, for this, but what do you see on the pricing page? Okay, Marketing Hub is $800 a month. Marketing Enterprise Hub is $3,600 a month.

So let's just pick the $800, right? And then we're saying that they pay you over, over the year, you get 30% of that. So that's $3,000, right? Is basically what you're going to make for not doing a lot per customer without having to operate and maintain that customer.

You've offloaded the rest of that to the, to the actual company themselves.

Yeah. And, and there's some that are even more lucrative than that, right? So if you look at Hiros, they say that they pay a minimum of $1,000 and up to $15,000. $1,000 for a customer. And there's, there's countless of these guys. So what I would do if I was in this niche is I would pick one niche. Let's just say it's chiropractors and I would build out a full funnel that I know converts for that niche with an offer, the opt-in, the email flows and everything. I would then build a list of people in that it for all chiropractors in whatever the geography is that you want to service. You can do this on Upwork. You can do this with BuiltWith. You can do it with a whole bunch of them. And then I would run a campaign where I outreach to these people, or I would cold call these people and I would say, hey, I can see that you're running ads right now, but you're sending them to your homepage, right? Just tell me the date that we can hold the funeral for all the money that's being murdered from you doing this. So instead, what I'm going to do for you is I've already built you a funnel and here it is, right? You get the email flows, you get the landing page, the offer, everything like that, the text messages. You don't need to pay me nothing for it. I usually charge $5,000. All that I ask is that you sign up through this commission, through this affiliate link in order to sign up and get this funnel through HubSpot for free, right? Of course they have to pay there and then I get my kickback. And that is something where a lot of agencies that service chiropractors or dog washers, or it doesn't matter the niche, these people are actually charging for that. So if you are able to go out there and actually just offer people, or the same thing with Hiros, right? It's like their guarantee is like they guarantee to give you an uplift of 15 to 20% in revenue from that. Build a list on BuiltWith of all Shopify stores, cross-reference the ones that are running Facebook ads that have the Facebook ads pixel on there, and I will guarantee to increase the revenue tracked from your ads by 20%. Interesting.

Okay. So I thought you, I didn't understand the genius of your idea here. So what you were saying, I thought you were just saying, hey, HubSpot pays an affiliate commission, become a HubSpot affiliate. Run traffic to get people to sign up for HubSpot. But no, no, no, you had a two-step system. You were saying find a bunch of people that if they were sophisticated in their funnel would have enough leads where they would need to use HubSpot. So you're like, let me just do— get— create a free turnkey funnel for chiropractors, then go to the chiropractor and have them just give that to them. And they're like, wow, thanks, really? What's the catch? And you're like, oh, the only catch is that these leads need to live somewhere. They should live in HubSpot. Use my affiliate link when you sign up, when you go ahead and, and make that official there. And so that is how you would, you would generate a higher volume of customers for these SaaS products by giving away the thing to the, to the end user who needs to use it.

Correct. All right.

Look, the question that Sean and I get asked constantly is what skill set did we develop early on in our careers that kind of changed our business career? And that's an easy answer. It's copywriting. We've talked about copywriting and how it's changed our lives constantly on this podcast. And we give a ton of tips, a ton of techniques, a ton of frameworks and throughout all the podcasts. Well, we decided to aggregate all of that into one. Simple document so you can read all of it. You can see how we've learned copywriting, but you can see the resources that we turn to on a daily basis. You can see the frameworks, the techniques we use. It's in a simple document. You can check it out in the link below. All right. Now back to the show.

Okay. Smart. All right, cool. I like it. Give me another one. Give me a different one. Is there one that you have that's not as internet marketing?

Well, I do. I have— they are pretty much all kind of in that internet marketing niche. What another one that I think I'll hit you with two more. So the next one that I would do is there are 400 million small businesses in the world, right? There's 60 million in America. There's 5 million in the UK. There's 2 million in Australia. And as everyone moves online, and there's people all over at all different time zones that want to get in contact with these businesses, a lot of these businesses have a Google My Business listing, right? A Google page with their reviews and all of those kind of things. Um, and the thing that very, very few of these people offer is live chat. So I would offer live chat as a service. And if it was just me and I was trying to start a side hustle, you know what I mean? I could do it after hours, whereas where a lot of people don't have the manpower to offer support after hours or to be able to field inquiries. And again, it would be free. I would say, hey, I'm going to do this for you, no charge. So I don't need to try and convince these people to do it, right? A compelling offer is infinitely more powerful than a convincing argument. So I do not want to get into a convincing argument over the phone that they should do this and they should pay me money to do this. I would say, cool, I know that this can increase your sales by 10% because I can look at your Google My Business listing and say that you're getting so much traffic after hours that you guys aren't open. We're no longer getting in contact with you. I'm gonna field those leads. I'm gonna nurture those leads. I'm gonna then send them to your sales team or even close some of them for you through chat. And I want a 20% commission as a result of that. I would start it as myself until I got it going, and then I'd hire some people in the Philippines or wherever it might be to actually service that. And I think that that is something that for people that are running ads or that already rank on Google is just a nice little shoehorn. It just, it just fits.

Okay. I like it. What would you target? So when you're, let's say you were at the beginning and you're trying to build up, are you trying to make these into $20 million companies? Are you trying to get to $1,000 a month? Are you trying to replace a job? What's your mindset? If you were starting from the beginning here and you're thinking about one of these kind of hustler ideas where you're gonna be doing the internet marketing for somebody, what would be your goal or your approach to that to get to that first milestone? How do you think about that?

I can tell you how I thought about it. And at, at the beginning it was like just operation don't be broke, right? Like you are broke right now and you not, you need not to be broke. So it wasn't like I had this big, like elaborate vision of having these, all these team members and multiple offices and a book, all that. No, none of that. It was just like, You need to not be broke, right? So what I look for is people like what I call customers that have a bleeding neck, right? The neck is bleeding and they need an immediate solution to solve that problem. And so I like to try to get as close to like the revenue-producing activities for business as possible because that's the oxygen, right? That's the blood of a business. Um, and I think that the way that I would think about it straight away is first replacing my income either was just started as a side hustle. And everyone kind of has this magical number of like $10K per month that they want to get to per month. And I think that going through this route is a way to very, very clearly get there. But the other lens that I like to look at it for is like, what are the skills that I'm going to need to possess in order to make this business get to $10,000 per month? And what are the half-life of those skills, right? Am I going to be learning just Facebook ads that what I know right now with Facebook ads is going to be infinitely different in the next 3 years. And so the half-life of those skills is probably 36 months. And then I've lost those skills and then they don't compound for me. So then I would be looking at it is like, what are the skills that I'm going to acquire that this might be a little dirty down side hustle at $10K per month, but I can then use those skills and build something that is really big further down the line and it's going to serve me. Um, which will bring me to the, to the last thing, right? Which I think that this is the best business opportunity right now for people that want to get started, bar none. So the, the idea that I want to speak to you about is something that you need no money to begin with, right? You don't need to show your face. You don't even need to use your voice. There's nothing about it at all that you need. And it is a market that is completely exploding. And it is a way that you can earn at a bare minimum $10,000 per month. And there's proof of people making $100,000, $200,000 a month with this. Do I have your interest?

You, you have my interest. You have my attention.

So we all know that TikTok Shop is exploding right now, right? And what we are also seeing right now is that obviously the whole war between these platforms is now YouTube Shopping is about to have a second crack at it and they've just launched their thing. And so what TikTok Shop is, if anybody that doesn't know it, TikTok Shop launched their platform, which allows brands to sign up to be, to offer affiliates and to have people sell their products with a product tag on it. And then they get a percentage of whatever sales that they drive towards that business. And this thing is exploding, like social commerce under that umbrella is completely exploding. And we're kind of in a war right now. For like Gen Zs and these younger generations. Like everyone wants to get in on these guys because they know, right? They don't focus on them now, they're going to be dinosaurs in the next 5 years. So what you want to do is you can use a website like Kalodata, or there's another one called FastMOSS, and you can go through and you can find the best-selling products on TikTok Shop. And then they will tell you, not only they'll show you exactly the revenue that these products are doing, they'll show you the, the TikTok videos and the reels that people are using to actually sell these things. Now you might be thinking right now, I can hear them. I can hear the objections coming out of the back of the crowd. I don't want to show myself. I'm not a content creator. Well, this is where the magic happens, right? You don't need to do none of that. So what you can do is A lot of the people that are selling the most through these platforms is they're using ElevenLabs, right? Cool. $20 a month. We're good to go on that bad boy. And you can start to look at the scripts on something like Kalodata and have a look at what are they writing in them, get them transcribed, figure out what's making the ones sell the most, what's one making it get the most views, reverse engineer that. Then you can plug that into something like ElevenLabs. It will give you the voiceover for it. And then you can use Midjourney or whatever free AI generation tool to create the images for that. And then throw all of that into CapCut and away you go. And the boys are cooking, right? The boys and girls are cooking if you do that. Um, and you might be thinking, yeah, that sounds okay. Like, there are people printing with this. There are kids out there that used to work in Chipotle that are earning $50 grand a month doing this. And it's not by doing 1,000 of them. Right. It's about doing one a day.

Right. What's an example? How did you, uh, how did you stumble across these kids or give me a story about somebody you met that's doing this?

Yeah. Well, I saw, I, I kept on seeing all these crazy ads for like this stuff and it was like called shilajit resin. And I was like, what the hell is shilajit resin? And it was like this black tar and it was like an ad that came up and it was like, what would happen to you? This is what would happen to you if you ate shilajit every day. For 14 days.

What is Shilajit resin? I've never even heard of this.

Shilajit is like a, it's like a black tar that they get in the Himalayas in India. And it has like all of like the essential minerals. You drink it?

You put it on your teeth? What do you, what do you do with it?

It's a wild black syrup and they sell it in these tiny little like jars that look like a lip balm jar. And it comes with a golden spoon. And for anyone that runs ads, know that that is immediately killer, right? That it's a little pattern interrupt with black tar. It looks really weird. On the, on the, on the feed. And so I started to see these things everywhere and they were all AI voices and they were making the most outrageous claims that I've ever seen, that it doubles your testosterone, it increases your pencil size as they call it, and it does all these wild things, right? And all these like weird people getting jacked with this black tar all over them. And I started to, to look, then once I clicked on one, the algorithm knows, and I start seeing these things.

Everywhere.

And I was like, I need to go down this rabbit hole. I need to. Um, I am a man of the internet and this is my duty, so I will go down and I will start to investigate this thing. And so I found this company called Better Alt Himalayan Shilajit Resin that all of these TikTok affiliates were pushing. Um, and then I found CalloData and I plugged them into that and I saw that they were selling 91,000 units, right, over like a 90-day period. It was like 1,000 units a day of this shilajit resin. And I was like, that is insane. And then I went further down the rabbit hole and these guys had done just shy of $9 million in shilajit resin in 90 days. In 90 days through TikTok Shop.

$100,000 a day on TikTok Shop.

Yeah. And that was the tip of the iceberg because then I went over to their funnel and started to have a little look and started to see what I could find. Um, and there was like thousands and thousands of reviews. And then if you go to their website, that they, they say that they've sold 9.5 million servings, right? And it, it was, it's crazy. Like it was more, it was like a $200 million worth of Shilajit. If you looked at it, calculated that based on their lowest average order value. Yeah.

Okay. So they're crushing it. What's the other one? The like Gurunanda or whatever that is. The tea. Is it teeth whitening or what is that?

You would have seen this Gurunanda oil pulling kit everywhere. These guys are all over TikTok. Like they do lives. It's, it's, it's their funnel is, is very crazy.

Also, who's behind this? Is this just like two 26-year-olds or like who, who is, how did they do this? Cause it sounds like some ancient Indian herbal recipe or something like that, which is exactly how it's meant to sound, right? Like, but it's crushing on TikTok shop. So I assume it's like a guy with a, you know, zero high fade on a, you know, haircut who, who is behind this. Do you know the story? Do you know who these guys are?

I don't know the, the founders behind these things, but basically I guess like one thing that they all have in common is story-based copy. Right? It's all like, it's all about the story about the thing that they've got. And they'll focus on ancient oil pulling. The Egyptians used to do it. And they had the— there's still people that are mummies that are under the pyramids that have perfect teeth because they've been doing this oil pulling. And then they hook you in like that. Um, and yeah, Guru Nanda, same thing here, like 100,000 units a week through TikTok shop.

Well, I'm looking up the founder right now. I mean, it looks like what you would expect. And, uh, I mean, I either— this is a complete, uh, this is a fake AI-generated guy, or he's got a nephew. He's got like a nephew with the fade who is doing this because it is remarkable how much they've done. Give me a sense of the numbers. How big is this thing? I thought this was the number one selling product on TikTok Shops for a while.

Yeah, it was. Um, they're, they're doing like I think they had done like 1.2 million in sales through the app, 100,000 units a week. They've got 40,000 reviews and there's like 30,000 videos tagged with Guru Nanda on TikTok. Um, and again, this is only seeing the numbers directly through TikTok Shop using these websites that you can find them. But the crazy thing is all of these products, it— they've got way more reviews on Amazon because the thing that they're doing so smart is that like you've got a lot of people that are promoting the product on something like TikTok, right? And they're getting a lot of attention and eyeballs on it, but then the people arrive at something that is much more trusted like Amazon, and then they get that little bump in conversion rate. There's trust already. They're sold from a video, and then they get all of these secondary sales. So the opportunity here is twofold, right? Because you can attack it where you can go and say, hey, like you're just going to start as an affiliate. Right. And that's just like the skills that you will learn is like copywriting, how to grab people's attention, right? How to, you will understand the social currency of these platforms, what goes viral, and you can take those skills to any business and just explode their sales.

Right.

And what you can do is, for instance, you could start off like that and you could get some traction and then you could go to a business and you could say, hey, you're gonna pay me $20 grand a month. And what I'm going to do is I'm going to build out TikTok Shop as a platform for you. I'm going to do all the creatives for you. I'm going to run that. I'm going to crank the revenue from it. It's a $20,000 per month retainer plus 5% of sales. You don't do nothing, but I'm going to do you one better than that because I know that you guys are running a lot of Facebook ads and anybody that runs a lot of Facebook ads knows that the number one bottleneck is creative. So I'm going to Vet, I'm going to run all these TikToks, I'm going to make them go viral, and then I'm going to give them to you to run on Facebook that you can scale up on paid ads even more.

100%. This is a great idea. And the beauty of what you just said is you're going to learn these more timeless skills— copywriting, understanding consumer psychology, video editing, video storytelling, knowing how to utilize social, social media to go viral. All of these things, which are horizontal skills that could be used in any business, but you're going to get paid to do it. You're getting paid to go to school to build the most valuable skills that exist for marketers going forward by doing this as either affiliate or as a retainer consultant for some of these brands.

And that's the reason why I think it's the best is because the skills that you're getting and getting paid to get are going to serve you for the rest of your life. Like, these are not skills, these are not shiny objects that are going to go away. Like, we are going to be communicating in 20 to 30 years from now, right? And it's going to even be a more hyper-fragmented— there's going to be even a greater war for attention. Um, and if you get the reps in now, if you're uploading a TikTok a day, right, just imagine the skills and the understanding that you have on human psychology in a year, in 2 years' time, and what that will allow you to do if you go into a more legitimate business and you know this and you know all of those skills, what you'll be able to bring to those businesses.

I mean, I think this is great advice for people early in their careers, people whose main attribute and asset is hustle and willingness to learn things and figure them out. If that's all you have going for you, then this is the perfect type of thing for you, especially if you don't have, you know, coding skills. Right? If you can't build in other ways, then, you know, which is me, I was that guy, right? I was 21 years old. I didn't have coding skills. I didn't have any assets. I didn't know. And, you know, if I was a great investor, cool. I don't have any money to invest, nor do I have any track record to be able to go raise money to invest. So I can't do that career yet. I didn't have any skills to build software. If I could have built software, I would have built software, but I would have had to have learned that first in order, in order to even build a product in that category. Whereas this is something that the bar to enter is so low that it's applicable advice to anybody who's at the beginning. I'll just say that. So I don't necessarily think it's the best, but I do think it's the best for a certain group of people who are in a certain context where they only have certain attributes and they have certain things that they're lacking at that time. Correct.

You just don't need like anything to get started other than time. And that's when you're broke. That's all you have is time. And the reality of it is that most of these people are already spending 4.5 hours a day on their phones. So in that, that's where I believe that it's, it's a very ripe opportunity.

You have a few phrases that I like. I want you to tell me about them. One is kill the little bitch inside. What is this? It sounds like a David Goggins phrase.

Yeah, I just, I think that there is a duality of man that is present and whenever like, you know, you're trying to do something that is hard, there's the little bitch that comes out and starts to whisper in your ear like, hey, it's cold outside, Sabri. Like, you've been working out all week, man. Just, it's okay. Just roll over and go back to sleep. Or, hey, you've already had really great conversations this week. You send out some very promising proposals. You don't need to make another 20 cold calls, right? Just knock off for the day and go hang out. And there's always that, that little bitch that comes out. And typically the harder the things that you do, the more loud it gets. And it is the best salesperson that exists because it knows all of your little weaknesses. It knows all of your little vices and it knows exactly how to hit those pain points. And it's, I have found that the harder things that I do, the more it's my ability to silence that person and to do things despite them. And I have like an interesting relationship. With that little voice that lives in my head. Because if it rears its ugly head and tries to say that stuff to me, then I just put it through pain. So it's like, you need to skip the gym, like you've got a little bit of a tweak in your muscle, like don't go. It's like, just for recommending that, like, we're gonna finish the workout with 15 minutes of hill sprints. Like, you shouldn't have come out here today.

You want to send it into isolation.

Exactly. I want to let it know what, what, what will be accepted in this.

Not only do you ignore it, you penalize it for being there so that it doesn't re-rotate again.

I do, because I think that like the biggest lie that people tell themselves is like the lie every day. Like the people that say, I need to work out, or I need to do this, or I need to do that, and then they start their day by like lying to themselves and not accepting that. Like for me, it's just like binary. It's like, either I know that I'm not going to do something, then I'm just not going to say to myself that I'm going to do it, because I don't want to teach myself that I make promises to myself that I don't keep. Like, that's a really bad thing. So if I feel like I don't want to go to the gym the next day, or there's going to be a reason why I can't go, I'll just say it now. I'm not going to say I'm going to go and then lie to myself.

What do you do when you get caught in that situation where you thought you were— you said you were going to do something you didn't? So you, let's say you—

I have to pay tax.

Catch it ahead of time.

Yeah.

What is, what is the tax that you pay?

The tax is always more volume. So it's always more of the thing that I said I was going to do that I didn't do.

Not only do I do it, I now have to do more.

I do. I have to. It comes, it comes to collect.

What are some of the other big ideas that you, that serve you well? Either life philosophy, uh, maybe a lifestyle technique you have, maybe it's a belief you have that you think most people don't live by that, that you do that have, that have served you well. So I think what I'm asking is, What's some wisdom you can drop on me? But the wisdom is in the form of something you actually take action on.

I think that the, you know, when I started my career, I thought that I needed to look and act a certain way. And, you know, I was, you know, watching business shows. I had read business books and I was like, okay, I need to be like this serious dude. Like I need to wear a blazer and I need to show up like a businessman. And as a result of that, I had to act a certain way. And that certain way wasn't really a way that was indicative of having a lot of fun. And over the years, it's like the world just like tries to beat you down to being like vanilla, right? And to fitting in and like not being that like dark rich chocolate or that person with a bit of showmanship or a bit of flair and a bit of fun to it. Like people think this is business, so I need a, act a certain way. And I, I definitely fell into that. And so one of the philosophies that I try to embrace is just to have more fun. And to everything that I do is just to have more fun in my life and in my business. Because at the end of the day, like the revenue, the sales numbers, the profits, and all of that kind of stuff, like the years roll by. And unless you're having a lot of fun doing what it is that you're doing, like nothing else matters. So, and it was actually like, it was only after I started on focusing on having more fun did I start making a lot more money. And so like—

That's an example. So what'd you do that was more fun and how did that, what, what was the turn of events that led to more money or were they not connected?

No, they were definitely connected. So obviously like some, some of the things that like I would say that are fun is that like A specific example is about a year and a half ago, I put together an ad campaign and usually when I put together an ad campaign, I'll be like, okay, how do I make this convert the best? Right? That is the goal. It's like, how do I just make it convert? And to cold traffic, because that's the game. And then I was like, let me just think about like, what would be the funniest ad? Like, what would be, what would I need to do to have the most fun? And I, I started from that place of just having, it's still wild fun ad that regardless if they're with your own business or not, it would be entertaining and fun. Um, and we did all types of outrageous things. One of them was like having me dressed as a priest and we had Lord Zucks and Lord Elon in the background and we were having a funeral in a church for the money that is being murdered in most people's ads campaigns. Right. And that was a whole lot of fun making that ad. And everything that we did in that, in that whole script was a lot of fun. It was funny. And that one campaign tripled our sales. And so that, that is a very transactional example, but it's more so about like, what is it that would be fun? So I try to do something that is like, you know, really big and have a big swing, something that's really risky every year. Um, because I know me and I know the urge that I have as an entrepreneur to like always keep engaged and to have to scratch that itch. And the big sin that I made early on in my career is I looked at scratching that itch through other business opportunities and other like things. When what I do now is I'm present that that is the law of gravity. I'm always going to want to do new and novel things, but I have a new and novel thing that I do that is attached to the main thing. Right. So it might be a new campaign or a new channel or a new offer that I'm going to run, and that will scratch that itch. And I think that like getting wrapped up in working, people, as they get older in their life, they start to take things a lot more seriously and they forget that like, yo, we're just all here having fun at the end of the day, right? Like, what's the point if you're not having fun? So I like to talk to strangers, um, lots of strangers. We're told from a very early age not to talk to strangers. Strangers have got everything that it is that you want. My wife was once a stranger, right? Like my customers, my business partners, my best friends, all of these guys were strangers to me. And so I think that that is something that is underutilized, having parties and, and entertaining people. It's so easy to get caught up in organizing your business life and the meetings and the events that people don't take that same vigor. And discipline with planning fun and making like events fun. And when you do that and you have fun and you've got all of these things that you do in your downtime, it just makes you like bring so much more zest in life to your everyday business because it's not like this just never-ending constant grindstone.

Yeah, there was a great Google principle, I think called 20% time, that they had for a, for a period, which was they acknowledged that the most talented people the best programmers that they wanted to hire, they would never be able to just chain them to the desk and say, optimize these Google Ads for the rest of your life. And that they needed the 20% time to just say, go work on whatever you want. And you're either— you're going to do it anyways. You're either just going to do it when you go home, and that's going to become a side hustle. It's going to become a new company. It's going to become a reason to leave. It's going to become so much more fun that you're, you're just kind of disconnected from your job because the fun is what you're having outside of the, outside of the job. So instead they said explicitly, use 20% of your work time to do something completely different than what you would do in your normal day to day. And out of that came some really great ideas. I know with Facebook, out of their hackathons, which were their, their version of like, yo, let's just build some shit. Forget the process, forget the product, forget the roadmap, forget everything. Let's just build some shit tonight, have beer and pizza. And I think like the like button came out of that. The most pushed button in the history of the universe came out of, came out of somebody in a hackathon saying, hey, what if we added that to our product? And so I think that there's great examples of this, um, in business as well. We used to have a do cool shit budget, which was we would take 20% of our time, but we'd also take, I think it was like 10% of our money. We said 10% of the marketing budget has to be a no ROI play, meaning we think it's awesome, but it's not measurable. It's not clear. It's not proven that this would work. And it was only out of that extra 10% that we would do things that were the kind of big swings out of the box ideas. That might result in a big winner or might result in we just tried something, we learned some fun, we have a good story to tell, we move back on and we had a creative release that we now use to do something else. Tim Ferriss was on the podcast and he said this well. He goes, I've learned that just because I charge my batteries doing something silly doesn't mean I have to use them doing something silly. So for example, he will do something that's not quote unquote productive because it charges his batteries and he's like, now I have batteries to go do more productive stuff if I wanted to. If I only ever do the super productive stuff, but it's just draining my batteries. That's not better. That's not the way. That's not the way.

And I think that that is even a more powerful example, right? Because like looking at like Google's, like, you know, their 20% time and all that, that's still tied to work, right? But it's more so, it's like, as we get older, like most people think that getting old means getting boring. Like, just think about it. They think about most people as they get older and they have the kids and they, all of these things happen. Then it's like they just feel like that is almost like a hall pass to being boring and just like fitting in and doing stuff. So like there's this annual survey that they do every year that is the Happiness Index, right? That measures people based on their happiness. And if you ask most people like, are you happy? Or like, you know, if you had to rate yourself on a scale of 1 to 10, how happy would you be? Most people say 7. Yeah, 7, right?

Obviously.

Yeah. But I don't like to live at 7s, right? Like I want to be very happy and I I want my life to be very, very full. And I just think that this far too often, we take things far too seriously that do not need to be seriously, taken seriously. And we just, we feel like that because naturally we're getting older or getting more cynical. And it comes back to, you need to do silly things that do charge you and that you do get energy for. Because you want to have like those sprints. It's not about sitting down and working 16 hours a day, just grinding on something because you've got the hours to do it. It's about doing your most meaningful work. And I find that I do my most meaningful work when I focus on having more fun with everything that I'm doing. Because it's like, if you're going to compete with somebody, it's like the Naval quote, right? You want to do things that feel like play to you and that look like work to others. So if you can inherently have more fun doing those things, You're going to do them for longer. You're going to get better and you're going to see better results.

Can I read you a quote about this exact topic? An hour before this podcast, I was supposed to be preparing for the pod, but I was deep in a rabbit hole on Sylvester Stallone, of all people. I was studying the story of Rocky and Sly, and he said this quote. He goes, I think that life belongs to people who can make a sick joke out of it all. And he said, if you take life too seriously, I don't know, either you, you either think one of two things, either you think that life is a comedy or you'll feel that life is a tragedy. And I just love that. And, and, you know, it reminds me of, I was at a Tony Robbins event once and there's 7,000 people from 56 countries and they're, we're all totally different ages, groups of people, different, you know, backgrounds, different economics, different everything. And he says something, he goes, Show me what a depressed person looks like. How does a depressed person stand? If said, don't say a word, just how do they stand? And everybody instinctively does the same thing. We, you know, you sort of shoulders down. He said, how do they breathe? It's like shallow. It's not deep breaths. He said, how does, how does their face look? And you could see everybody, regardless of background, knew, we all knew the protocol. And he says it, he goes, you guys have practiced this, right? You know what stress looks like. You know what depressed looks like because It is— we all know instinctively what that looks like. You said something earlier, which is that we all believe that as you get older, you get boring. Nobody says that out loud, but I think it's an implicit belief that's baked into all of us. Just like knowing that, well, if I want to be in a low-energy, depressed state, I should hunch over, breathe kind of shallow, shuffle my feet, and talk, talk in a low voice. That is going to manifest that in the same way. I think that most people truly do believe and accept that as I get older, life becomes more boring. And that's crazy. We gotta like uproot that and eradicate that as a default way of accepting how things are gonna go because it's these beliefs that are so ingrained in you that you don't even really acknowledge. Those are the ones that kind of drive your life.

Correct. And it's all driven by the activities that you do. If you think about like, why are you like more energized and excited full life, you know, when you're maybe in your 20s as opposed to being later in life, right? Just as an example. And a lot of the times it's because people stop doing new things and it's like they, they just repeat the same thing every day. So instead it's like that, the manga quote of like, you know, show me where I'm going to die so I never go visit there. It's the same thing, same activities. You want to look at like, well, why are you like, why do you have a little bit more pep in your step when you're younger? You're always doing new things. You're taking big swings, like there's all, and there's always again, you know, to quote the little bitch in the back of your mind that's saying, but yeah, I have kids now. I have responsibilities. I have certain things that I need to do. Whoever said that means that you can't do also new things or that you can't also have fun while doing those things. And it's just little exercises that you can put in, in your daily life that you, you make the ordinary extraordinary.

This is a little small talk pro tip. One of the most common questions people ask is like, so what's new? That's what we ask people when we see them. What's new? And if you're ever on the receiving end of the what's new question, it's like, oh God, what's new? And it's sad. It's like nothing's really new. But for most of us, nothing is just new between the last time we saw you and now, right? We're still working that same job. We don't change jobs every week. Still got the same kids, they're still around, still got the same— most of the things we do are the same. And so asking what's new is a terrible question to ask, and it puts the other person in a sort of, uh, you sort of pin them into a sort of sad realization about their life in the moment. A different small talk question that I think generates much more interesting responses is, um, what's something you're excited about coming up? So I'll ask people this all the time. I'll be like, I'll say, I'll even say what's new so that the question doesn't sound different. I'll be like, What's new? What's something that you're looking forward to right now? What are you excited about? What's coming up for you? And then they'll tell me like, oh, I'm really looking forward to this thing that I'm going to do, this show I'm going to, this thing I'm going to go see. And then they light up because people light up when you ask them what they're looking forward to, because we need things that we're excited about and we're looking forward to. To your point, we should be building the muscle of having more fun, of building, planning things that we're excited about that are going to be fun.

Yeah, you got to engineer them. You can't just wait for them to happen by chance. Um, and the best way that I have found to do that is just to sit down at the start of the year with your partner, whoever it might be, and like, not as, as everybody plans out their work year, right? They're like, these are the projects that I want to do. I'm going to do it in Q1. Then we've got this. It's like, do that about your own life, right? We're going to go on a holiday here. I want to try this here. I want to do something crazy here, right?

What are some examples you've done?

Yeah, so some of the stuff that, that I like to do is I like to look at like all the different areas, like of my life, my relationships, wealth, all of those kinds of things. And you start to have these pillars. So the pillars might be like, for me, I like to go away every 90 days. I've got 3 daughters, my wife, I work very, very hard. And I like to, I love to travel. I like to go through, I do cooking classes, experience new cultures. And I don't wait for when I need a holiday. I just plan them in advance because I know that you know, a 10-day holiday is going to give me that zing, it's going to give me that juice, and I come back and get way more done in that next quarter. So like, we like to plan the year in terms of like all the holidays that we're going to take. And then a little hack that I, I like to do with— you've got kids and you go traveling— is whenever we go to a new city, you know, every year we go to multiple new countries, try to go to multiple new countries a year. And whatever the cities or the countries that we're going to be visiting, I go to ChatGPT and I ask it to write me a children's storybook about that, and I read that to my daughters leading up to going to the countries, and it's incredible. Like, you can say, no, make it like, I had 3 characters and these are the characters' names and they're all my daughters' names. And then like, it fuses all the things about that culture into it and it just makes everyone bought in and so much more excited.

Yeah, because the anticipation is always more fun than the, than the actual event itself. So that makes sense to actually invest in the anticipation part of it.

Indeed.

And you have a pretty interesting set of interests that align with what I'm interested in. You like— I asked you, I texted you, I said, hey, what should we talk about on the pod? And you said to me 4 words of which I'm actually interested in all of them. One of the first one you said was showmanship. Talk to me about showmanship. Why is this on your, on your mind?

Yeah, I think that like, you know, entertainment is like the currency that buys the attention of your prospect and of your marketplace. And showmanship for me is like, you know, it is, it's a lot of things like it's storytelling, it's being able to have like stage presence and energy with the way that you show up. And it's also visual storytelling and being able to surprise and bring drama and excitement to whatever it is that you do. And I think that in regardless of the business that you choose to build, you very quickly, once you get to a certain height, you realize that you're in the people business, right? You're in the, in the, the business of leading people and communicating to those people regardless of what the product or the industry that you're in. And it just becomes infinitely more important with your ability to be a showman and to bring like a bit of pizzazz you know, a bit of that sauce to things that seem ordinary, right? And that can seem mundane and boring, whether it's a job advert that you're writing or an interview that you're conducting or a team meeting that you're running and all hands on deck. And it's just one of those lost art forms where people just like, most of our communication is done through text and email. So I think that people just naturally just get to a plateau where they don't really emphasize it anymore. And I think that with everything that's happening with content creation and stuff like that, and the importance that people are placing on building an audience, there's like, you know, a renaissance of, of like showmanship that is having to come back.

I like that you said showmanship is the currency that buys the attention of your prospects. That's killer. You— it seems like it's kind of polarizing, right? The people who are out there creating content on TikTok and YouTube, they probably know more than anyone how important showmanship is, and they're benefiting from, from doing it. And then there's a whole bunch of people who are opted out of that. That sounds complicated, hard. I don't know how to do that. And they're living in emails, text messages, maybe where most business owners live. And I think I buy what you're saying, which is that when you're communicating through, let's say, just emails or, um, or you're running ads, you tend to kind of conform or subdue yourself into a very transactional just dry informational way of communicating and that that actually does you a disservice. Is most of the new business you get through content you're making on your YouTube channel?

No, I, we, we run a lot of ads. Um, so we, we get that as well. I look at it as like the whole ecosystem and the, the YouTube content is a way to also get more reps in, right? I understood that like if I want to become a better storyteller, if I want my hooks to get more dialed in, if I want the whole thing of retaining people's attention, learning all these storytelling techniques, foreshadowing, and all of this kind of stuff that, you know, I kind of really came up through the whole tutelage of direct response and learning my way through that and understanding that like the, the landscape is changing and like you really need to become even better at storytelling and all of those reps that I get in on YouTube, I can then translate them to all the ads that I do, the emails, the video sales letters and whatever else that I'm going to do, even presenting and just being a showman, it allows me that instead of getting feedback of maybe doing a launch or a campaign every quarter, like I'm uploading a YouTube video every week, right? So it just, it's about practice.

Let's say if I'm good, what's something you've learned in the gap between good and great on storytelling, uh, or showmanship through content?

Yeah, I wouldn't say, like, I, I wouldn't put a crown on myself and say that I'm great yet. I think I still got, I've got ways to go, but I think that fundamentally it's understanding the principles of like, how do you first hook somebody's attention and then retain it and then be able to make an ask? And I think that the place that a lot of people start is really focusing on how to make an ask. They think about how to write the most, you know, influential copy, the most persuasive copy to have a huge amount of emphasis on the offer. Um, and the ask that you're making to your audience. And I think that the number one thing, if you want to improve the conversion rate of anything on any vehicle, the thing that you need to focus on is improving the consumption first. And so, you know, I think that you want to place a disproportionate amount of your effort on first getting that consumption. And the way that you do that is by understanding the hook. And understanding the lead, right? So how do I have either something that's going to be a pattern interrupt or a pattern match to my market? Um, and then how do I slowly just foreshadow? How do I build stakes? How do I have where I, I'm basically delaying a payoff at that and have multiple storylines in it? Because if you can do that and if you can earn that viewer, even if like, yes, you want to have a very strong offer, But it doesn't matter how strong the offer is if you don't get people to that part of your whole pitch anyway.

Right. And you have a, um, you have, uh, an interesting method here that you, I, I just was reading one of your titles that I really like. The title of one of your most popular videos is Sell Like Crazy, Stop Praying to the Internet Gods. What's the premise of that video?

Is that like a lot of people sit around and hope and pray to Zucks about that they're going to get cheaper CPMs, right? Or everything would just get easier with my ad account. It's like the algorithm wouldn't be so wild and so volatile. Or people, you know, basically beg people for referrals and they sit around and operate their business by whatever fate falls in their lap. But most businesses don't have a repeatable, predictable way to actually put a dollar into a machine and turn it into $3 or $5 or $10 back. Um, and with all the businesses that I've seen, with the thousands of clients that I've worked with, all the businesses that I've actually been an employee of, you know, that's the one thing that those people all have is a repeatable process to go out there and get clients. Because if you do not have that, you have an expensive hobby that just is worse than a job because you don't get vacations, you've got all the stress, you've got everything that else you need to deal with. Um, and you end up working double the amount of hours than you would in a normal job.

Right, right. What are some examples of these repeatable systems, which might be just a sales funnel, a great sales funnel that you've seen right now that you could, you know, teach me about or tell me about?

Yeah, I think that like if you, if you look at it on like a lead gen perspective, you know, a basic funnel is having somebody having a piece of information or a video or a free report or something that you can get your target market to raise their hand. In a sea of people and say, hey, I would be interested in learning more about that. And that's the first, like, cardinal sin that most businesses make is that they go out to their market and they conduct it like that they're in the dark ages. They lay out their wares like they're in the marketplace. They can say, these are all the products and services that I've got. There's a little bit of haggling back and forth on the prices, and then the deal is done, right? They're just like, get a quote, buy, buy, buy. Where you will get 10 times the amount of people if you go out to your marketplace with something of value to try and educate people and basically lead with your best foot forward and use a piece of content that you know that is gonna be bait to get that person to raise their hand in a sea of people, right? And it can be a free report about anything. And then once you get them to raise their hand on a very small ask that is not confronting, it's not intimidating. Then you have them arrive on a page where then you make your offer, right? Where then it's a two-step, a basic two-step funnel. So instead of saying, get in contact with our sales team or get a quote, you say, here's a free piece of information. They download that. Then you arrive them on a page that makes them a Godfather offer to get on the telephone. And you just get 10 times the volume of people that will come into communication with what it is that you do if you do that.

So what's an example of, uh, a specific example of someone doing this?

Um, so in terms of like, we do that a lot. All of our clients do that. But there is like, in, say for instance, you're a digital agency and you want to sell your digital agency services. Instead of being like, hey, we can help you grow your business with digital marketing, you're like, here is a free report of the 22 things that you need to know when running Facebook ads. Right? And then that's only going to pull people in that are interested in running Facebook ads. And a percentage of those people are going to be interested. In having someone run their Facebook ads for them. That's it on the lead gen side, right? Then if you've got like the e-commerce side of things, again, it's a bit about being able to first go out there and get people's attention through, through content. Um, and then the brands that are crushing it the most is they're not like, here is our goop in a bottle. Here is our protein shake, right? All of these people now, if you look at the landscape with TikTok and everything that's going on, they hit you with a piece of content that just looks— it just slides under the radar. It's completely organic. It doesn't look like a sales message. And then you're watching it because it's very interesting and the algorithm does all the optimizing for you. And then you get to the end of it and then they make the ask. Right, right. So if they're selling like a testosterone boosting supplement, they're not like, here's this testosterone boosting supplement, buy it. Yeah. They're like, did you know that testosterone in males has dropped by 70% over the last 10 years? And it's like, like that will get someone's ears to kind of perk up and go, okay, what is that? And do you know the reason?

They'll post a clip of Joe Rogan talking about testosterone. It just looks like it's someone sharing a clip of Joe Rogan, and then it starts to go to weave you into an actual, uh, a product pitch later.

Exactly. Like, I saw a brilliant one the other day. Like, I'm in the process right now building a house, and it was a reel on TikTok, and the guy's like, these are the best 20 things that you definitely want to be building inside your house that nobody tells you about. And he's like, you want a whole house water filter, you want this dehumidifier for your whole property, you want these essential oils that diffuse and go through your AC, you want heated tiles. And I'm like, dude, like, this is fire. And then at the end of it, and he's like, and all these things are expensive. And so if you want, you must be thinking like, how much is this going to cost me? Well, I've just put together a course that shows you how to buy and flip homes so you have the money to buy all this stuff. I was like, dude, you got me hook, line, and sinker.

Yeah, that's an absolute judo flip at the end there. Exactly. And forget about having a home. You can't afford it. But the way you could afford it is if you take my course and start learning how to make money online. That's amazing. You did it. You did this with your book, right? I remember going down the funnel once of your free book. And I was like, this is very, very smart. He's got a free book funnel. Tell me about this Sell Like Crazy book funnel. How many people have bought, have gotten a book from you from through this? I would guess it's a pretty ridiculous number.

Yeah, we've sold a million copies now.

But are you selling them or are they free? I thought they're free.

Yeah, like it's free plus shipping. So like between— we are on Amazon and whatnot as well. But yeah, overall it's— we've sold a million copies through both Amazon and the funnel.

And when I saw this, I was like, this is genius because books are not good moneymakers anyways. So instead of trying to make a profit charging $9 for a book, you're like, let me give away a free book. Book on teaching you how to sell. And then you would create what I call the yes, yes, yes, no funnel. The yes, yes, yes, no funnel is you hear somebody telling you how to do something, how to get better at something. They're not selling you anything. And you say, yes, yes, yes. That all makes sense. That's true. That's a great example. That's a great point. Yes, yes, yes. And at the end you just say, no, I don't have the energy to do that. And at the end, what you're hoping for, the ideal prospect for a lot of these businesses is somebody who is now convinced that you know your shit, but they're also convinced that they don't have the time, the energy, or the skill to go do it themselves. And you could say, if you don't want, I'm giving you the playbook, but if you don't want to do this yourself or you don't have the time to do this yourself, luckily we're here. We do this for you. And you have a marketing agency, for example. So you could teach people, you could give away how to do marketing and people would do yes, yes, yes. And at the end they would say, no, but I'd rather you do it for me. You've, all you've done is convinced me that you are an expert at this and I want to now enlist you to do Yeah.

And I think there's a caveat to it though, right? And so like what a lot of people do when it comes to book funnels or any of these kind of things is they effectively make the book like a thinly veiled sales pitch to do exactly just that. And one of the things that like, you know, I think I started it in the different way. Like I started in a position where it's like we were getting so much inbound to what we were doing. And, you know, we're a premium agency. There's a lot of businesses that could not afford to work with us. And they would always ask us like, who, who else would you recommend? Like, right, who's the no-frills version of what it is that you guys do? And in the beginning I was like, okay, let me try to find some people that kind of know what they're doing and send them their way. And they would always come back to bite me in the ass and they'd be like, hey, you recommended this person and they just murdered my money. Right. So, and so I just decided then I was going to write like a playbook to help those people to get them to a point where they may not be ready right now. But let me give them this stuff for free. Let me literally no holds barred, give them exactly the playbook and not hold anything back. And then maybe in the future they might come back as a client, and if not, that's completely fine. So there's a lot of people that just, they go the opposite route and they go, let me build the, the yes, yes, no funnel and let me just make basically the book a sales letter for my core offer. And so I was very conscious of not not making that the, the situation, um, because I wanted to be something like— books is interesting. Books is not like a YouTube video or a reel, right? Like, that book is going to be around in some capacity, hopefully long after I am gone. Um, so you really need to pour a lot of time and energy to make it the best that you possibly can. And so, yeah, like, I think that that's the distinction to make, is that it's not a bait and switch of like, yeah, you buy the book and it's just like, you— I'm gonna hold back all the secrets, Juju, the, the secret 11 herbs and spices, baby. You're not gonna know them, right? Right. And you, you need to literally lead with your best foot forward and do give them everything. And then if they arrive at that decision, they don't feel like, okay, he's given me everything but the secret little part that turns the machine on.

Yeah, I think that's a good, a very good point. Awesome. Well, dude, thanks for coming on, man. Uh, I knew I would learn some stuff about marketing, but I also got some good life tips and, uh, life wisdom out of this, which is always, always a good thing for me. So I appreciate you coming on. Where can people find you or get more about you?

It's been a pleasure. Thanks for having me on. Um, you can check me at Sabri Subi, um, pretty much on all platforms. And if you liked this, you can go to YouTube and check me out.

Awesome. Thanks, man. No problems.