Hasan Minhaj - Comedy, Netflix, Haters, & Money

Netflix was like, "Where do you want to do the special?

LA, Chicago, New York?" I was like, "Nah, son. Davis, California." Because you're completely free now, right?

I'm completely free. Well, you're never really free. You know, you build a prison of your own making now. Yeah. So, you know, two little kids. So day starts with morning shift, dad duty. Yeah. So I take the mornings. I got a 2-year-old and an 8-month-old. Yeah.

And so we're like, we're the same.

Yeah. When you were talking about it yesterday, I was like, I feel you. Yeah. And we, so I do the morning shift. That's just straight dad time. Then I basically pick between, I got 3 kind of major projects.

Yeah.

So I got investing. So sometimes we'll be looking at deals, then it's, could be content, but content is really kind of on a specific niche schedule. It's like Monday, Wednesday for an hour we sit down, we do the show and then that's kind of it. I don't do too much more than that. I write sometimes and like Twitter or emails or whatever. And then I have a business. So me and my wife started an e-commerce business.

Oh cool.

And so that, That scaled up. So basically in the last year that went from zero, like just an idea.

Yeah.

To now we do like over $1 million a month of revenue on that business. I was looking for something new. Yeah. That I could do as a side hustle. Something that wasn't like, yeah, gonna take up all my time. Yeah. But could still be a valuable business that was, you know, like some part-time basically. Yeah. And so that's what—

Have you always been like that? Multiple hustles? Have you always been that guy?

I was always that guy, but they weren't working before. So I was really, I was trying to do that and I was failing at it.

And like since high school, like you were that dude.

So no, so, so a lot of people have this story. A lot of entrepreneurs have this like, oh, back in I was my lemonade stand, I was selling, I was doing newspaper routes and I hired all these kids.

Yeah. Baseball cards.

I was, dude, the lights were off in my head until like 21. So like, uh-huh. I was like, I'm going to be pre-med. I was going to be, I wanted to be a team doctor for an NBA team. So I was like, okay, what do I do to, I wanted to be on the NBA team. All right. Genetics not working. Yeah. Team doctor. That seems like the blend of my genetics and my interest.

Yeah.

And only when I met a team doctor, I was like, wow, this is boring as shit. These are just joints that are in pain and it's only so much you could do. I was like, wow, this is not as exciting. Shit, I need a plan B. So I was 21 when I figured that out. Wow. And I was like—

You were still an undergrad?

Yeah. I had just taken the MCATs. I was ready to go to med school. I was like, what else? I had this random business idea with a couple of buddies that sounded kind of silly. It was so silly that it was almost like not dangerous. You know how that is? Like sometimes a very serious sounding idea is almost too intimidating to do. But this almost seemed so goofy, it was harmless. I was like, I'm just gonna go try, I'm just gonna do this. But obviously I'll eventually go to med school. Obviously I was like, I'm not gonna, you know, I just do this for a couple months.

And you're also, you're at a point in your life, college is so unique in the sense that you're leaning on this thing where if people ask you, hey, what are you doing? I'm a student.

Yeah, exactly. I got my cover. I got my cover story. Yours is similar, right? 'Cause you started young, right? Yeah, totally. I started, yeah, freshman.

In college.

Exactly. And you were— How long did you have the, like, okay, so let's take that. When did you decide, all right, I'm gonna do this for real. This will be the job. Was it right away or did you kind of play with it first and then decide a year later or two years later?

So it's really interesting. So for me, I was a, it's so funny, you were at the show last night. And so you could tell, especially in the Bay, there's just this level of connection I have in this city, New York, certain cities where I'm like, I know you guys. We're all Kumon kids. And they're like, yeah.

That joke killed.

We're like type A, like, we gotta do this. You know, I know you. Like, I know you, I know what your house smells like, I know the way your mom talks to you, I know you, I've seen you at family parties, I know you, like, I really know you. And there's a level of intimacy there with that material. The point of the story is, is that I was part of that camp where there was a clear track. Relatively speaking, in the community, I wasn't the brightest kid. Every community has like the Stanford kid. I'm always like, I go up to people in Dallas. I'm like, yeah, you grew up in Dallas, right? Who's the Stanford kid?

Which one? Yeah, which one?

Yeah, who's— man, it was Nikhil. I'm like, yeah, yeah. So assuming you're not Nikhil, what was your path? Right? Everybody has one. Somebody's like, Pranav, man. Pranav went to MIT. It was like, he's the star. Who's the star of your community? There's a kid, right? Yeah, you're not going to name him. It's fine. So every kid—

he won the spelling bee.

Yeah. And you're like, okay, this person is the shining star of the community. What's my path? And so I was a speech and debate kid. I go to college and the first open mic that I did, a friend of mine, funny enough, who I knew in college, was illegally downloading a ton of stand-up comedy. I went to college during like the Kazaa—

Yeah, LimeWire.

LimeWire era. I think we're the same age. I'm 36.

Yeah, I'm 33, I think.

Yeah. So we're like, we're that same era. And you said 33, I think.

Yeah. I was like, I haven't been thinking about my age in a while.

Yeah, I think I'm 30.

I think I am 33. Yeah. I'm either 33 or 34. I think I'm 33.

Yeah, I'm 36. And so I went to college during that era. He downloads a Chris Rock special, Never Scared. I remember that special. He's in the purple suit. And I remember being like, oh, this is funny speech and debate. This is—

connect to the dots.

Yeah, this is forensics, but funny, right? Oh, I see the matrix. And then I come to find out, oh, like a lot of the comics that I really loved, there were certain comics that really thought critically like that. Greg Giraldo, rest in peace. One of the all-time greats. He was a former attorney, right? And then he became a comic. Demetri Martin, who was really big at the time in the early 2000s, early aughts. He also was an attorney, worked at the White House for a while, and then like got into comedy and he had a big run in comedy. Anyways, all these people that I like, Carlin, they were these critical thinkers that kind of were doing speech and debate, presenting an argument or a take. And it just was a light bulb moment. And I had this thing inside of me I'm like, oh, this is one of the first things in my life where I have an alacrity and speed at which I do this that I never had at Kumon or at the SAT or at the MCATs or at the LSATs. Like, I can pick this up really fast. And I don't know if you felt this. I think a lot of, you know, Desi kids have this or whatever, kids in general. Your parents will put you in soccer or basketball. Or swimming, and you're like, ah, there's always that kid from just the first drill picks it up fast. And so much of adult life is figuring out what's my thing that I pick up fast like that. And that was that. That was my moment.

I had the same moment, 21 years old, when we started that, we had this business idea and it was like we didn't even know what the fuck we were doing, right? As in nobody does in the beginning. And I remember thinking, oh man, my parents probably not going to be cool with this if I— because especially our idea was to create the Chipotle for sushi. So it wasn't like even like a business This idea like, oh, bioengineering, blah, blah, blah, like some new microbial whatever.

Yeah, why does it sound like you were high when you said that? The way you said Chipotle for sushi is like such a like—

I wish I was. That would be a better excuse. We just, I just tried sushi for the first time and before that I was eating Subway and Chipotle a lot and I was like, why don't I just, why isn't sushi served like that the way I'm used to? Yeah. It was as simple as that.

Yeah.

So I was like, all right, I'm gonna—

Did you always have, so this moment, this problem solving thing, 'Yo, why don't they do this like this?' Have you always—

That was the start of it. That's what I'm saying. I didn't always have it. I started to realize—

Naval has that too, right?

He does.

I've seen interviews with Naval and Naval's like, 'I was always like, why doesn't that pizza place do this?' Yeah, I wasn't like that.

And I say this because I remember I used to watch those guys like Naval. He's like a hero to me, right? He's like a mentor in many ways.

Yeah.

And when I hear him and, you know, you hear these people talk about how they, they just had it from day one or, you know, early age.

Yeah.

It makes you think if you don't have that, your thing, which most people don't by then, It's like, I guess I'm just not that type. I guess I'm just not cut out that way. I guess they're different than me. Yeah. And so I'm always very like upfront about it, which is like, no, there was no signs of anything. I didn't know what the heck I wanted to do. I didn't know what I was good at until I did. And that just light bulb comes on when it came on. Yeah. And I remember going to my dad. I remember we started working on it and like you said, I had this alacrity of, I was good at pitching. It was a pitch contest that we were working on first, business plan pitch.

Were you a great student? Were you like a really—

No, mediocre. And that's why I called my dad and I said, hey, I'm thinking about doing this thing. I was kind of expecting the Indian parent thing, which is like, no, stay focused, med school. Remember the whole thing you just worked on for 4 years? Why I paid for this expensive-ass college? Do that thing. And he was like, I think you should run with this. I go, you think it's a good idea? He goes, no, I think it's a terrible idea. I think food business is awful. I think restaurants are terrible idea. I don't understand what you mean, but you don't know anything about sushi, so I think it's a terrible idea in like 10 different ways. He's like, but what time did you wake up this morning? I was like, I don't know, like 8:30. He's like, and what'd you do right away? I was like, I started working on this. He goes, that's why I know you should do this because the light obviously— This is your dad? Yeah, he was like, we've been trying to get you to like study and like do—

And just care about anything.

Yeah, care and like wake up with your own light bulb on and be able to go do that thing.

What does your dad do?

Know what I'm asking? He kind of had a career where he was in, like, he was an engineer, research, like, worked at a big company, worked at a big oil company. And then he realized, like, he was like 30-something. He looked around, he saw in his office, he's like, my office is the same office I've been in for 10 years. I got all these patents on the wall. He's like, but these are just like certificates they give me to like pat me on the head and keep me, you know, just to keep me doing my thing, sitting here like a scientist, like doing my thing. He's like, the guy I hand the idea to, he gets promoted, he gets to go to London and he gets to like, he takes my idea and makes it sound like it's his idea. He's like, Maybe I should do the business guy thing because it's like those guys just take my ideas and run with it. So then he switched into the business side. And so that's why he kind of, you know, most parents have this where like the thing they regret, they kind of push their kids like, no, do it. And I was like, so for my dad, that was two things was like social. He's like, I didn't know anything about socializing till it was almost too late. So go to that party. He would drop me off at a party. Wow. He would be like, you need to go. And I'd be like, I'm scared. I was just socially scared as a high schooler. I didn't know what the heck was going on.

And did they let you have girlfriends and stuff?

Yeah, they were cool about it. They were like, whatever.

Awesome.

Yeah. So they were pushing me to again, fill the gaps that they didn't have. Yeah. And one of their moms was closer to my mom. My mom, because are you the oldest sibling or the eldest?

Yeah.

So the oldest paves the way. So my sister had already done it.

Yeah.

And so my mom, like, she had to talk.

She went through Vietnam with them.

Yeah. She was, she was like, all right, look, your sister didn't tell us anything and did everything anyways.

Yeah.

Everything we told her not to do, she did. And then she didn't tell us, which made it worse. And we found out later as we do. And it's like, bad.

She's like, by the way, I know the listeners sometimes get mad at this. They're just like, get to talking about Bitcoin. The reason why this is— no, the reason why this is important to me is like understanding someone's driveshaft is so imperative to why they are where they are.

Yeah. You're looking under the surface. Yeah.

Like sometimes people are like, ah, that's stupid. But I'm like, no, because all of your— I'll just speak on my, like, my field, which is not big. It's relatively narrow. If you take 100 comics and you're all in the green room, you'll quickly see the ones that are talking shit. You'll see the ones that don't like to write. You'll see the ones that use sometimes comedy in the comedy club as a crutch to give them a place to go to just socialize. The ones that love it, the ones that are sociopathic sick offense, all of those things. But if you start to find out more about them, which is why, you know, sometimes you come up in a comedy scene. I came up here in San Francisco in the Bay. You quickly find out, oh, this person's running from something, right? This person— do you know what I mean? And that informs the next 15 dominoes of their career and their life.

And when you did that, because comedy, I think, is kind of known for that, like, yeah, comedy is like this torturous field where it's like, you know, nobody makes it. Then even if you do make it, it's like, just continue. You have to come up with new material, reinvent it every year, every 2 years.

Yes.

Is this is this brutal field.

Yeah.

And then even the better you are at it, you're a truth teller.

Yes.

Right. And often these truths are kind of ugly or they're kind of painful or about yourself or about society or about whatever.

Yeah.

So there's this like darkness that's with like a lot of great comedians.

Sure.

It lives with them.

Yeah.

You seem like a well-adjusted, you know, good-looking guy.

Happy person. You saw the show last night. Did I come off as unhinged or?

No, you came out. You came off like you came off like I'll tell you exactly how you came off. To me, and I don't mean this— this might sound like a backhanded compliment.

Yeah.

You seem to me like somebody who isn't the naturalist— not naturally isn't the funniest guy. Like some comedians, you just see it, you're like, dude, they could just be doing this at their dinner room— dinner table. Yeah. And they're just probably slaying whatever room they're in. They just happen to be in a big auditorium.

Yeah, yeah.

Yours, I could tell, and my sister even said that, she goes, he works on his craft. Like, I could see that the stories you were telling, the beats The punchlines, it just felt like everything was put together. It was thought through. The lighting, the sound, the position, your body language on the stage. It seemed like you had worked this set. Not like this guy's just funny. He had 2 drinks and he gets up here and he starts spitballing. Yeah. Which is the vibe that some comedians give off.

Yeah, totally.

And so to me, that was what I got was like, it's ironic. It's like, this is kind of like the Indian kid who like, does like hard work and practice and is like really good at the thing that he set his mind to. Yeah, that's the vibe I got. Is that accurate or is that like my own projection of shit?

I think, I think that is definitely accurate. Like, I really do care. Like, I love it. I love this thing.

Okay, do the thing. Do you agree with my first thing, which is amongst 100 comedians that are like at the same—

Yeah, I'm—

Are you naturally, are you the average, above average, below average? Where would you say?

Yeah. So what you're talking about is just like natural. There's people that look funny, talk funny, say things in a funny way. So their voice sounds funny. They look funny. You're already in the top heap. Think about those guys. Chris Farley.

Yes.

Another comic I love, Felipe Esparza. Felipe Esparza just looks funny. Hannibal Buress has an amazing voice. Chappelle has an amazing voice.

Right.

Do you know what I mean?

Yes, exactly.

He just like sounds funny. He's brilliant. He also sounds really funny. Chris Rock has a great voice, right? Right. He sounds funny. Yeah, I look like a news anchor, you know what I mean? Like, I look like I should be doing like the 5-day forecast or whatever. But I also have like a— I have a genuine love and I have something that I want to say. Like, there's a message. Yeah, I just want to say something. There's something inside of me that I want to say. And Yeah, one of the things that I definitely feel is like when I put together a show, like on tour, I want to give you a show.

Right.

Like I want it to be a show. And for me, putting together, mixing standup comedy, storytelling, and theater, that to me was my elixir. Yeah, it was my elixir.

We were at the show. I was thinking about, what do I ask him? I was like, I got a bunch of questions, but the one that I truly wanted to know, which I don't even know if there's a good answer for this.

Yeah.

But the question, I was like, at the end, so you went up there for an hour and like by the end it was like, you know, in tetherball when one person gets the momentum and it's just swinging and the other, the person, the other person just like flailing, they're helpless. Like the ball is just out of reach.

Yeah.

But the one person knows, they're like, I'm about to, you haven't won yet, but the momentum is so strong.

Yeah.

From about halfway through the show to the end of the show, that's what I felt like it was tetherball. You were dominating and the crowd was just in the palm of your hands. It was so good. And at the end, you know, mic drop, crowd goes wild. What is that feeling like? Because most human beings are never going to experience that. But it seems sitting there, I'm like, that must feel fucking amazing. Even though you've done this many times. Oh, it must feel fucking amazing. Does that— what does that feel like? You know what it feels like?

At the end of the set, every artist and I think every human being, whether it's intimate relationships, personal relationships, collaborating in business, family dynamics, and hopefully your career. Everybody wants to feel seen. And there's this moment in Act 2 of the show where I basically go, man, I want to give you guys all of me.

Yeah.

I want to close the gap between who I am on Instagram and who I am on iMessage.

Right.

And when I look in people's eyes, I could tell everybody that's in, like, the Bay Area work-from-home crowd, they're like, fuck, I can't be me. And there's part of me when I—

That's the part where you laid down.

Yeah. When I lay down, I'm sharing all these secrets with you guys. And I'm like, there's this moment of, do you see me? I want to be seen. Right. Like when I'm with Bina, when I'm with my spouse, she's like, hey, when we're disagreeing on something, it's like, you don't see me. Like, you actually don't see me for who I am.

Right.

And the most enriching thing about that last moment when I say good night, and I see people and their reaction, I feel seen. I'm like, oh, I think y'all, you guys get me, right? And to me, laughter in that exchange, in that live experience, is an expression of love. You know what I mean? Because I can't make you laugh. I can't, like, force you to laugh. Much like lovemaking, it's an intimate act, right? And that release of laughter is like, oh, you get me, right? You feel me?

What's the journey from the beginning of the show? So that's the end. That's the climax. Yeah. That's how I feel loved and seen.

Yeah.

Before the show.

Yeah.

And again, we're sitting there and the openers went on and we said, okay, he's about to come on. And my sister goes, oh man, what would you feel if you were about to go on? And I said, well, I was just thinking in my head, I was like, I know he's done this many times, so now he's figured out a system to how to deal with that combination of excitement and nerves.

Gotcha.

What's the feeling like for you now? And what's the system you've developed to get on stage and have that switch flipped? Because when you came on, within 2 seconds, it's like this guy's in a state of mind. He's in a state, as we say.

Yeah.

Of like he's here to perform. He knows what he's here to do.

Yeah.

There's no like tiptoeing into it.

Yeah.

So I was wondering, what do you do the 5, 10 minutes before or an hour before? I don't know what you're kind of like warm-up routine. Yeah. Yeah. How do you get ready?

The listeners want to know this?

I'm sure.

I don't really— I— this is my personal curiosity.

I want to know it. And I'm just— my trainer has this great phrase. He goes, 'Who are my customers?' The people that love what I do. Like, because he's like, people always ask, 'Oh, who are your customers?' Is some demographic, right? Some like, some like marketing intellectual answer. He's like, 'Yeah, easiest way in the world is the people who love— who, who your customers are, the people who love what you do.' Yeah. So just do what you do. Yeah. You will naturally attract the people who love that. You will repel the people who aren't interested.

Yeah.

And you will never have to guess what the heck people want because you just do what you want. And so that's the approach I take to the pod.

Yeah. No, I love it, man. I love talking shop like this. For me, it's actually, it's the 3 hours before. So what I try to do before any show, I try to make sure that I exercise in some capacity because, and I don't know if you feel this way, maybe it's within our community. It's so funny to go back to what you're talking about where you're like, oh, he seems like a guy who works really hard. This is funny. I was doing Marc Maron's podcast and Maron said the same thing about me. He's like, yeah, you seem like really put together. And he's like, why aren't you unraveling like the way other comics are? Right? And I'm like, yeah, I'm just philosophically not from that camp. I'm not from the tortured artist camp. I'm more from the place of like I'm creating from a place of passion and love. And actually, real talk, it's about emptying the tank. I just want to put it all out on the court.

Right.

You know, and this court happens to be the stage, right? And I want to do my best. I want to be like, I put everything into picking out this outfit. I put everything into picking out these jokes, these tags, the stage design, the lighting design. Like, this is it. And I want to know when I go to sleep here at night, when I put my head down on the pillow, I did everything I could, right? Like living a life without regret. And only you can answer that is the best, right? Everybody's talking about chasing happiness. To me, it's about chasing satisfaction like that. Self-satisfaction. And you know what it is, right? You know what it is.

And you know, when you sold out, you know, you got a good result, but you kind of didn't do it the right way. Yeah, that sticks with you. And some people just like let that stick with them.

Yeah.

Other people say, all right, even if I won, I'm not going to win on those terms again.

Yeah.

Even if I lost, I can lose on these terms and be good at night.

Yeah. And I'm sure there's listeners to the pod that spend their time retweeting the right things and quote tweeting and dunking on VC people. And, you know, they say the right things, they'll regurgitate the right opinions, but they know when they put their head down at night, hey, you were supposed to train, you jerked off instead. You were supposed to do this, you didn't. But only you can answer that, right? So you can signal all you want. For me, what that stage represents is like, no, I'm putting myself in a high level of accountability in front of 3,400 people, right? I'm putting it all out here, right? Even— and if you don't think I'm good, if you think I'm corny, if you think I'm whatever, hey, it is what it is, but I stood here Right. And I did it.

I did me.

And on my terms. And I did my best.

So you're saying— so you're saying 3 hours before you do—

3 hours before, what I do is I like to do the, the, uh, some form of exercise and I try to get out of my head.

Like a workout workout or you're just trying to break a sweat? What do you— what's the—

Yeah, trying to do— on tour, it's just about body maintenance. So I'll do running, I'll do some pull-ups, some core stuff, just stuff to get my body going and start breaking a sweat. And what I love about like right around minute 30 to 45, is I'll get out of my head and into my body. And so much of life right now— getting out of your head. And it's funny, I called you randomly. I appreciate you picking up the phone the other day. We had a long conversation. We can get into that later. But so much of, I think, what you do and what you put out in the world— and I call it like tech Twitter talk— it's all in your head.

Intellectual.

It's all just heady. Anxiety-inducing stuff, right? Oh, Ethereum's up. Oh, this is— Solana's this. It's like, it's all head shit, right? It's not a body feeling thing, right? Like grounding yourself 2 feet on the ground. I'm here in this moment. What do I do? And so much of performance and to be great at it, the best— Chappelle, the best performers, they're not in their head. They're in their body. They're really there, right? Somebody screams, somebody says something, somebody heckles. They're in their body. When you watch Steph Curry play, when I watch Devin Booker play, these guys are so in their body, right? Luka is the best at this. He's in his body, he's in the— he's in flow, right?

And so Luka's like a kid, and kids do this well. Yeah, kids do this pretty naturally.

I love that.

The older you get, the more heady you get, which is— you gotta fight.

Yeah, you gotta fight that, right? And so that's a great way to get out of my head, get into my body. Then I'll probably— I eat something, um, I take a shower, and then I put— I put on the outfit. And for me, it's like being on stage, uniform, and putting on that, it feels like a uniform. And like, for me, it feels like I want to feel like a show. Like, from the watch to the jacket to the pants, I'm like, there's a level of confidence that you have when you move into a room and you're like, hey, from, from my heels all the way up to my head, I'm wearing my armor, right? Like, I'm coming correct, right? And you just, you carry yourself with a little bop. You're like, no, I feel better about myself. My shit isn't slouching. There's no stains on my stuff. You know what I mean? Like the moment I saw you today, you walked in, you're wearing your tech pants. I could tell you washed them a few times, but there's some stains on the backside, you know what I'm saying? But that feeling of like, no, man, when I'm coming in here, I'm going to be fresher than Sean. Yeah, I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm just gonna be fresh.

Yeah.

That already gives me a feeling of like confidence. I know what I'm doing, you know? And by the way, the opener, Marcela, like Marcela was just like dressed to the nines, you know? It's a feeling. Then I get to the show, I finish eating, I'll meditate. So meditation for 10 to 15 minutes will allow me to just again get out of my head and drop into my body. And something simple, just Headspace, right? Like, I'm not getting too crazy about it. And what I love about Headspace specifically is so much of it is just basic breathing, establishing a level of intention. I'll meditate, then I'll pray. And for me, like, prayer is really important because it's got to be about something bigger than just myself and my corporal being. I'm like, what am I doing this for? And just establishing an intention. And for me, the intention is like, love. Let me give joy to people.

Right.

And I want the seed of everything that I'm doing to come from that, not be like, not be petty energy, angry energy. I'm going to prove you wrong energy. Like, I'm in the laughter business, right? Like, I'm here to make you feel joy, right? And that warm feeling. So establishing an intention there. I get to the— I'll get to the venue about an hour before. I'll have a double shot of espresso. I'll let my bowels do what they do. You always get those jitters, like you got to pee, you got to do what you got to do. And then about like 30 to 45 minutes before, I like to be loose. Just with the staff.

Right.

Let them know like, hey, what's up? How are you? Door guy, security guy, openers.

Right.

You know what I mean?

Another way to get out of your head, by the way.

Yeah.

Be with others, be there.

Yeah.

Talking to others, serving others in a way. Yeah.

And then about a half an hour before, I'll go to my green room. I usually write it down. I'll write down, it'll just be on hotel notepad paper. Hey, what are a couple new tags that I'm working on tonight?

Right.

Just move the ball forward a little bit. Remind myself, yo, I'm going to do this. For example, last night, one of the things I talk about in Act 1 of the show is fertility. And a new joke that I did was like, you know what it's like being infertile as a man? I felt like Woody in Toy Story when his arm got ripped off. Right. That was just one line. And I was like, hey, make sure you do the Woody Toy Story line.

Right.

You know, and every show I try to add a few of these extra moments. And you add that up over the course of like a year, 2 years, 3 years, you start to see what works and what doesn't work. And I'll have 1,000, 3,000 different variations of that.

Right.

And then I get on stage and by the time I get on stage, there's just this feeling of like, now it's just pure play. Whatever happens, happens.

Right.

And when I'm on stage, what I try to do is I try to remember when, when I'm opening in front of my crowd, they're like really hot. And one of the things I try to remember is don't yell, don't scream. Try to actually bring them to you. Like, set the tempo of the game, right? Don't get like too excited or too hot. Like, you can whip them up, but then like sit down at the stool, bring them to you. And like make the room feel like it's coming to you. You know what I'm saying?

Do you ever watch a film of yourself, basically?

Yeah, I watch tape all the time. Yeah. And so I see bad habits.

Kind of brutal, huh?

Yeah. Yeah. But it's cool though, actually. Like those moments where you like— is very painful for your ego. And but there's a lot of growth in that. The only way to break through and get to like the next part is, is that part.

I've done that even in the business world. And I'm going to keep bringing it back because that's where a lot of the audience lives.

Yeah.

The things you're talking about of how to get ready for your performance, your day, which you do, that's, I mean, athletes do this before they get on the field. You do, the performers do this before they get on the stage.

Yeah.

I do this before I get on my laptop. It sounds lame. It sounds like dorky, but it's like, well, I'm trying to be the best version of myself.

Yeah.

I'm trying to set an intention before I go out here. I'm trying to get out of my head so I can do my best. Yeah. I do all the same things and I just apply it into this world. And it doesn't matter if it's a call with a supplier or it's a podcast episode or whatever. Before you came here, yeah, got it. I got through my routine.

Yeah.

To make sure that—

is your routine similar-ish?

Very similar. Obviously compressed, not because, you know, a longer day. So I'll try— I practiced it where I can do it in 10 minutes now. I can get that state in 10 minutes. That's my goal.

Really?

And it has 3 components: breathwork, So this first 3 minutes are breath.

Yeah.

And so I can use breath to change my physi— physiological state right away. It'll be pushups and breathwork. So I'll just do 15, 20 pushups. I'll do breath. Next 3 minutes. Again, how do you get outta your head? It's not about you. Gratitude and thinking about others. I have this little exercise I do. Again, sounds a little bit cheesy, but I'll say it out loud. People wanna try this, just try it. I just let, uh, I, I rotate through almost like in my head. So I'll visualize like, let's say my mom, my sister, whoever. People I love, people in my life. I just visualize them laughing. So I just visualize them laughing, which is them in their joyful state.

Yeah.

And there's no, like, I don't have to think about why I laugh, nothing. I just, I've seen them laugh a thousand times. I just see them all laugh in succession in my head.

Yeah.

Now I'm not thinking about me and my problems and my needs and my desires. I'm just thinking about them.

Yeah.

And I'm just, it's a good energy that I like. Yeah.

The last thing you do, you do establish an intention.

I do establish it. And then the last bit is I remember why I'm here. And so the thing you were saying, which you were saying, I want to bring joy, love to the audience, want to make them laugh, make them have a great time. Yeah, same thing. I used to think, what am I going to say? Whether it's a meeting, a presentation, a podcast, what am I going to say? What am I going to say?

Yeah.

And that used to paralyze me. Just think, what am I going to say? I want to get the right words. I don't want to fuck up. So then as soon as I start talking, there's a little editor in my head being like, that sounded dumb. Oh yeah, you walked up and you said that thing is stupid. And then I'm in my head while I'm doing the thing and you're not in your body and you're not— and I wanted to just be clear and okay, how did I do that? So then I stopped thinking about— I just, I imagined the end. So I already imagined after this, I already imagined us saying bye to each other at the end of this.

Yeah.

And if that happened, that means this all went well. Yeah. And I remember, okay, the people listening to this, what are they going to be thinking? They're going to be thinking blah, blah, blah. They're going to be saying these things.

Yeah.

Dude, that episode was amazing. Dude, I love Hasan, man. You have him on again. He was so good.

Right.

So now I don't have to think about what questions do I ask? I'm already remembering what I'm trying to deliver. And then it's— I'm not going to learn a new skill in the next 5 minutes. Like the performance is going to be based on all the hard work I've done over a decade about whatever I'm doing. Yeah. So I don't try to like cram for the exam. I just try to put myself in the right state of mind so I can just perform the way that the things I already know how to do. So that's my routine for, for, you know, my— to start my day every day.

How do you get over— you're part of this thing again, I call it like the business internet world.

Yeah.

Which can be filled with people that are sincere in their intentions. It's filled with grifters. It's filled with sometimes people that are trying to do get-rich-quick schemes. You're part of this really— it's actually quite similar to Hollywood and politics in that way.

Yeah.

Because if you work in show business, you'll quickly see that too.

Yeah.

You know, shit can run from people that are like really about it. Artists, artists, Nas, Kendrick Lamar, all the way to Logan Paul and Jake Paul, like that are just about like the WWF circus show of it all, right? This world that you run in and people are now talking about money and business in a really interesting way. When people come out and they comment about you and your businesses and they quote tweet you and they're dunking on you, and that's a part of now the social currency. This is all social currency that you're part of. Oh, the more subscribers I get, then I can do me on these commercials and we can sell the pod. And you're a business guy, right? How do you deal with those negative critiques? Does it bother you? Does it— what's—

so the honest answer is, yeah, every negative comment is like 10 times 10 for every positive comment. And so that is the initial reaction. But there's also a difference between response and reaction. So The initial— if I'm not in the right state of mind, that initial reaction, I'm gonna clap back, or they're so dumb because of this, this, and this. I'll go look at their profile. You only got 11 followers and you're saying this shit? Maybe, yeah, maybe this is why you have 11 followers, because you think this way, you know, I'm right, you're wrong, blah, blah, blah.

Yeah.

And I realized pretty quickly that doesn't get me anywhere. In fact, it would waste like almost like half a day or a whole day of mine just checking the mentions for good and bad. Like, this happened if I go viral, good, you know, I go check all them. I'm just addicted to refreshing the thing. You did an amazing bit about this. That was the most, for me, it was most relatable.

Yeah.

You just, you played it up. It was amazing. People aren't going to know this. Go see the show. You'll see this part about the, the, the social media comments, likes.

Yeah. Social media, that cocaine cloud.

That cocaine cloud. Exactly. Um, but with that comes the, the kind of the, the negativity. And that also is fun and exciting. It's this, it's this thing in its own way.

Yeah.

And so what I kind of like, where did I land with all that?

Yeah. Uh, okay.

So, you know, The good, they think I'm like a genius guru. I'm not. My wife will remind me of that real quick. And the other people who think I'm an idiot, scammer or whatever, people who think I'm an idiot who doesn't know anything about anything or I'm wrong or whatever, or they'll point out that I've stumbled and said this the wrong way or whatever. Yeah. Okay. Where is my focus going to go? Focus on why I'm so great or why I'm so terrible really does nothing for me.

Right.

So I said, okay, I do need a sounding board. So I'll say, so I get a reaction from people, good or bad. I'll be like, hmm, let me just get curious. Why are people reacting in this way? I'll take a minute to observe that. Then I'll go internal and I'll say, what's my judgment? Because I guess my rule that I created for myself was that I want my own opinion of myself to be higher than anybody else's opinion of me.

You mean positive opinion?

Anything. If I think something sucks that I did, I don't care what anybody else says. I think it is. So I basically want my opinion of myself to be the trump card. And so that works for self-respect. Like, I stop seeking the respect of others because I'm like, well, if I don't have the main respect, my respect, then what is all this other stuff worth?

But then how did you get that wisdom? Because we are social creatures.

My trainer. So my trainer's kind of my— my trainer I brought in for my personal trainer. He's also like a kind of like a he's like me. He's like, dude, it's all in the mind. This is a solo player game.

Yeah.

And we got to train this just as much as we train the rest. Yeah. So he said something at the very beginning. He's like, why do you want to work out? And I was like, oh, I just want to get fit. I've got real fat doing my last company. I just want to lose weight. Okay. He wanted, like you said, he wanted to know the driveshaft. What's driving you to do this?

Yeah.

What's making you think that? What's making you think you're fat? What's making you— why'd you call me today? Why today? Why didn't you call me 6 months ago? What changed?

Yeah.

And eventually it got down to, I had this experience where I went with my two best friends who are business kind of like mentors, bit older than me. All the things I do, they've done a little bit more. And we all went on a Spartan race together and I thought, oh, I'm a little bit out of shape. Oh, we're all out a little out of shape. It's no big deal. We went on the Spartan race and I was way behind and I was just huffing and puffing and I was dying on this thing and they were like trying to help me. And every time they helped me, I just felt like a bitch. I was like, oh man.

Wow.

Like, this is embarrassing. I'd rather they just ran and finished the race and left me to like, you know, die I'm on my own on this mountain here. The worst thing you could do is push me from behind because I'm like, it's like, shit, don't give me the pep talk. No, anything but the pep talk. So I told him, I said, I was pretty embarrassed. I had this situation. I said, I just want to have the respect of the people I respect. I thought that sounded like a good thing to say. And he goes, okay, respect. He goes, respect's one of those things. He goes, you want to give it, not seek it. And he goes, two things. He goes, We're not going to do this. We're not going to start this program from a place where you're trying to get the respect to others. He goes, whenever you feel you lack, it's time to give. So like, let's not worry about who you're—

who—

what respect you're trying to get from others and who you're trying to prove yourself to and all that. Let's become a giver of respect to yourself and to others. So who— and so we started flipping the script and this became one of my philosophies, which is whatever you feel like you lack in the moment, that's a signal it's time to give that exact thing. And when you give it, you realize I got it, I have it in abundance. It's kind of like a circular way of thinking about it. But that was the thought process for me, at least on this topic, I guess.

That's cool.

Yeah.

That's really interesting, man. I don't know. You know, I know I called you about one of your tweets that went viral again, and it was about how It was specifically about the metaverse and how the digital world will matter more than the physical world. And I think the reason why it so deeply philosophically rubbed me the wrong way was because the pseudonymous digital world has commodified cowardice in such a way that the real world and the game checks you. And what do I mean by that? You know, I grew up, I was a, you know, Desi kid who'd play at 24 Hour Fitness. You play ball at 24 Hour Fitness, first to 12 straight up or win by 2. But if you lose, get the fuck off the court.

Right.

I remember there'd be these guys— it was an honor code— these guys that were nice. It'd be 11-11 straight up. This dude would step back, hit it, and as he's about to hit it, he'd go, get the fuck off the court.

Right.

And you would respect it because he stood there and he's like, I beat you 12-11. It's over.

This is— there's no argument.

Yeah. This is not subjective. This is objective reality. Next. Yeah. And you got to sit there and you got to run it back. You got to wait another 1 game or 2 games or 3 games and then run it back. But for the first time in history, there are people that stand on stage, that stand on the stage of business or life or comedy or art, and they use their actual government name. And then pseudonymous trolls who don't use their government name can launch digital drone strikes, right, attacking you, your character, your family, that can then potentially impose economic sanctions upon your future Yep. And they do it pseudonymously. Yeah, philosophically, I don't rock with that. Say that shit with your chest, right? Get on the court with me at 24 Hour Fitness. Let's cook. Like, let's play each other. That's what I— it's that feeling that fundamentally bothers me. This is a dishonorable craft, right? It's not honorable. It's not a fair fight.

The way I look at it—

how do you think I should unpack that? That's the problem. I was like, why does this bother me?

Yeah. Well, that's the first good— that's the right question. Yeah. Which is not, why are they doing this? Why is this allowed? Why does this bother me? Right? The curiosity is what will set you free because you got to say, do I enjoy focusing on this? Do I enjoy this trap, this uncontrollable— you're not going to stop it. We all agree on that. You're not going to turn them all off. Right? So that's not going to happen.

This is the world now.

This is the world.

And I'm also thinking about my children too, because I'm trying to prepare. I got a 3-year-old and a 1-year-old. How do I prepare them for this new world order?

Right.

And in a weird way, let's— I'll keep riffing this out with you.

Let's figure this out.

In a weird way, there's times where I'm like, yo, I wish you punched me in the face, actually, because I would prefer that. How many fights have you gotten in your life? I've gotten into 3. Okay, I've gotten into 3. I've lost all of them.

Yes.

One time some kid was trying to steal my shoes. I didn't let him, and then he just beat the shit out of me. But I'm proud. Like, I kept my shoes. He wanted my Jordan 13s, but I kept them. But I remember. I remember being like, I like the, the IRL nature of this. There is some level of virtue even in this fight, right, that it, that it ends. And it ends today. We've resolved this here, right?

Which is why you see when people fight, it's gone. The beef is usually gone. It's gone as long as the fight was on fair terms. Yeah, both people are like sort of mutual respect by the end.

Yeah, it's over.

Yeah, it's over.

And, um, that doesn't happen. Yeah, this is the first time where We don't really have that. And the reason why I'm saying, say it with your government name. If someone says Sean is corny or Hasan is corny, anytime any comedian or contemporary says that, I go, cool, put up your hour against my hour. Oh, I'm corny? I'll do 10, you do 10. Let's see what it is. Let's play to 12. Let's play to 12. Like, I love the dance of it. Straight up or win by 2.

Well, it's a merit-based thing.

Yeah, but when ball— Comedy is a merit-based thing.

Again, you said you can get up on stage. Yeah. No matter what your name is, you can't make them laugh.

Yeah.

You can't just force them to laugh.

Yeah.

It is merit-based. You must earn that laugh.

It's why my favorite thing right now in pop culture is the verses, right? I don't know if you saw Dipset versus The Lox. Yeah. But you could see Jadakiss go up against, right, Dipset. And I thought Dipset was going to win, but Jadakiss was so nice. He just buried them. And it was, it was Let's Play to 12, right? You play your records, I'll play my records. And there's something so honorable in that. And this new digital world order is so not honorable.

Right.

Because there's no reconciliation at the end either. So I quote tweet you, and by the way, shitposting is now incentivized. So actually being a negative Nancy and being an absolutist in your position is now commodified and incentivized. So that you can't even recognize, yo, you won, I lost, good game. And there's no shake on it.

Well, it even gets worse because what you say online, what you display online, the photo you take online is so easily faked. So it's not even like 20— it's like if instead of going and playing at 24 Hour Fitness, we each submitted a mixtape.

Yeah.

And it's like, here's my mixtape versus your mixtape. It's like, well, how much editing really is going into your lifestyle, your opinion, your persona, your face? All of it is filtered, is edited, is curated. Leaving out the bad shit. And the more real you are—

so the way I look at this, and by the way, I'm not shitting on digital skills. So if two people are competing against each other in video games, I still like that. Like, there's NBA 2K tournaments, but it's, are you better at 2K than me?

Right.

So I think about like the way in which I want to live my life, and I want my kids to live honorable lives too. Hey, compete, and there's nothing wrong with losing, but like be a good competitor, be an honorable competitor, say good game, right? But when I'm using my government name and Baldrape79 is risking nothing, I'm like, this is whack. This game is whack. And Baldrape, even you can't deny that. But I don't know if the people on the other side recognize that. Go ahead. I mean, I just love your analysis on this.

I guess the way I look at it is with the— the pendulum has swung. So before, and they're sort of like in the past when everybody was online, everybody was in real life, real name, merit-based. You had still had people's opinions in their heads. They just couldn't broadcast it. People, if somebody, if somebody thought you were corny before, they were thinking that they weren't saying it. They couldn't get amplified from each other.

Or they would say it and you're like, okay, cool. So you think I'm corny?

And let's look, it took a buy-in. They had to ante up. Yeah. They were going to—

let's square off in the lunchroom. So you think I'm corny? Now I can make fun of your shoes. I can make fun of your hat. I can make fun of You know what I mean? Who you're dating. I can make fun of your mom.

There was a cost to enter.

There's a cost to enter the arena.

The cost of the barrier to enter is so low now, right? Fake name, fake handle, whatever. You can just go on there, say whatever you want.

You know what we're analyzing right now? This is Kevin Durant syndrome. Kevin Durant is one of the greatest basketball players on planet Earth, and there are people on the internet that get Kevin Durant and his feelings riled up.

Yeah. And then he says he doesn't care, but yeah, you know, so this actually—

but because to me, I was like, yo, if— and I talk about it in the show, I'm like, yo, these memes hurt my feelings. I'm a person, right? But I'm like, yo, if KD is getting in his feelings, 7-foot-2 wingspan, can cross people over, built like, built like a velociraptor, but can move like a point guard and like, yeah, then just like shoot and sledgehammer on you. Like, and he's getting in his feelings about these like laymen at home. We're in a big fundamental shift in society and culture in a way that it never was like that before. Yeah.

So I think basically the reason you get the rewards you get are because of all these things as well. So by you going out there under your real name, with your real face, with authenticity, telling your real life stories, which is what you do, right? You're talking about fertility issues, you're talking about stuff like that. You're getting like bing, bing, bing, bing, bing. The score, the meter is just running up. Why? Because it's in such scarcity today. We don't get that from most people. In most situations. So when somebody does it, you're running up the score real quick, right?

You get the benefits of being the counter to all the high level of accountability.

You're running counter to it. You're putting it on the line. So you're getting all of the benefits and you're getting the scale of those benefits. Before, without technology, right, you'd be doing local shows and, oh, I saw this guy in North Carolina. He was amazing. The guy, you know, in Texas, like, I don't— I'm not a fan of that person. I've never seen them.

Yeah.

You do the Netflix show, you do Twitter, you do stuff like that. You're reaching everybody everywhere all at once. Yeah. And so you're getting the benefits of that leverage. Yeah. And so you're running up the score because that is what society lacks today. This, this real like honor code. Yeah. Of like, look, I'm going to go try to earn it under my real name. I put myself out there. I'll let you judge me. And if I'm good, I'm good. If I lose, I lose. And I'm willing to play at those stakes. Yeah. Because you're willing to play, you're getting all this benefit and people who are not willing to play, they're not going to get any of the benefit and they're going to get— so they get this proportional like you know, small bit of success if they just like kind of shit on you and maybe you're not, they get a little immediate dopamine hit, but ultimately they sort of don't ever really, their score never really goes up.

So you're talking about the capital markets. It's efficient. They will reward Durant or whatever. Yeah.

Or you are getting rewarded for being authentic and being accountable and you're getting, and with that power comes the trade-off, which is, would you like this giant prize? Yeah, and here's the— here's what the— the hair on the deal. Yeah, here's the cost of that big reward. Yeah, where you blew up in like, I don't know, 5 years or something like that. Yeah, last 5 years you had this like meteoric rise. Yeah, awesome. It's because you had the right answer when society was going one way. You were an awesome counterpoint. Yeah, you're willing to say what was on your mind, willing to say what was right, and you use technology to go viral as hell because you had something good. It went viral, it spread like crazy. So you're going to have to pay this, this tax, this vig along the way. And you got to recognize there are two sides of the same coin. And so that's where it's like the, the, the 24 Hour Fitness scale where it was everybody was being accountable. Yeah, cool. But it was only operating at this like small scale. It's not scaled up.

Yeah.

You're getting the benefits of this thing.

Right.

And with that comes certain tradeoffs and that's— I think that's just like the way I look at it. And I think that that's a good framing. Society's going in that direction. And so you're already on the right side of history here where you're willing to play a different game. And because of that, you're going to win a very different prize. Yeah. And you're seeing that your career basically is an example of that.

So just so the listeners know, I called you on the phone when that thread went viral and I said, hey, Sean, like, and I'm so glad you picked up. Very few people pick up these days, like real talk, pick up the phone. And I go, hey, man, like, this actually irks me here. And, you know, I'm such like a I'm an artist, man. So I operate from a feeling thing and then I start questioning why do I feel this way? And I was like, I'm an IRL guy. But when you're telling me everything is going to be on the metaverse, I don't want to be a pseudonymous drone, right? I don't want to throw drone strikes at people that I can't see. I want to talk about what's real. And if you watch the show, like, I'm talking about what's real. I'm talking about me and Bina, my kids, what I went through going at dictators and governments and It's real. This is real life. I talk about lawsuits and this just crazy shit, but I'm like, hey, it's real. It's my experience, right? I'm being sincere and authentic in that experience. And I got the receipts. And I don't want to live in a world where I'm a Reddit commentator and you're a Reddit commentator and let's just like argue ad infinitum. That's a zero value add to society to me.

Right.

But I guess, I guess what you're saying is right. You're like, well, the more you double down on that, so the capital markets will perhaps reward you.

So you're being rewarded right now for that accountability, right? So the coming Comedian who gets up there and just tells dick jokes is not going to have the same emotional resonance as you going up there and talking about fertility issues and then you're dealing with it and what that was like and the tension that's loaded in that. Because anybody, I just had two kids, anybody who's been through anything with kids and that whole process, the uncertainty, we didn't even have any issues, but my wife was worried that we might have issues and it loaded the relationship with tension.

Totally. I'm sure you have friends that went through it too.

Let's get started earlier because it might happen. It's a connection. So you put yourself, the real you out there, you get the reward.

Comedian who just makes the dick joke, I laugh, I move on with my life.

I don't feel like I'm going to back this guy the way that I felt like by the end of your show, I was like, I'm about what this dude's about.

Oh, wow.

Right. Because that's what you did. You drew a line in the sand. You said, this is what I'm about.

Yeah.

You've told, you built your case.

Yeah.

And at the end of that, how could you not be like, right, right.

I'm with you. I'm about what these guys— If you don't, cool.

So it was a very different thing. It wasn't just laughing. It was like laughing, but also This is— this person just put their balls on the table and said, this is what I'm about. Yeah. And you got to respect that, and then you got to react to that. You got to pick a side. You're either about that or you're not, and that's okay. You can go either way.

Yeah.

But he made it very clear. And then I'm like, that guy's gonna build an army because he's gonna build— because there's a lot of people who are gonna hear that and be like, mm-hmm, I rock with that. I rock with that.

Yeah.

Whereas if he just did a bunch— if you just did a bunch of impressions of like what Indian aunties sound like, I would have laughed. Yeah. And then I would have been like, next time you have something, I'm not lining up for it. I'm not camping out for it.

Right.

Because I I didn't connect in that way.

Right.

But you did it. So I think you get paid for, for doing that. So you're saying just be aware of that, be aware of that and like recognize what you're— just remember what's already working for you and why, why that bothers you is because you're the opposite of that. Yeah. But there's also a piece of it that could be you, but you've intentionally driven the other way. So when you see it, you're like, I built my brand being the opposite of that. So yeah, it's like when Apple sees a poorly designed product Steve Jobs was disgusted when he saw other products that were not well thought through. He was annoyed with it in a way no other CEO was because he built himself as, we care about the inside of the fucking design of the, inside the case, what that looks like. These motherfuckers don't even care what the outside of it looks like. So it disgusted him in a way that it disgusts you, somebody who has no accountability, sort of stands for nothing, just is trying to dunk on people on the outside. That's that part of it. To go to the metaverse side of it, I think it's not as different as you think. So let's say the world does move to where we have these online identities and that digital identity matters a lot. You have a screen name and my first screen name was Mr. Goobapple. So whatever, that's whatever I picked from fifth grade. I don't even know what that is. Let's say that stuck with me.

It's so funny. You know my first screen name was Hasan Minhaj 1. I've always been this way. Yeah, it's always— yes, it was taken. And then I remember on AIM, Hasan Minhaj went online. You remember the door? You see the sound of the door open? Of course, right? And then I'm like, yeah, and I messaged him, and then it just immediately the door closed.

So I think that, yeah, whatever your screen name is, it'll be the same. Like, this name you have, Hasan Minhaj, that's what was given to you. It's your— it's for better or worse, it's your stage name for the world. Sure. And you're building up a reputation.

Accountable to that name.

It doesn't matter if that name was Mr. Gubapple or it was Hassan. It doesn't really matter what the real name. It's wherever you're, whatever you're going to make accountable, you're going to say, hey, if you like me, if you trust me, put my reputation on this name. And then if I fuck up, that name has lost its value.

Yes.

Well, the metaverse, you might be able to pick a second name, but it's still going to work the same way where people are still going to have to put up or shut up under some handle. It just doesn't matter if it matches your Social Security number. It's kind of like my, my take on that. But I don't know, it's, it's a wild world of how that's going to turn out. I think we're still like, it's just we're still a ways away from that.

Where do you, where do you get the points of like the things that you do that you're doing right now? Like the fact that you take time to train and think you're, you are preparing your mind as a physical corporal being with two feet on planet Earth.

Yeah.

Rather than being just like this guy with like the headset and you're just like in the Matrix, you know what I mean? And your body's literally just being used as heat to fucking be a part of this.

Yeah.

Ready Player One world.

Yeah.

You know what I mean? And I'm just like, yeah, I'm not going to say I'm above that.

Like, maybe when that's here, maybe I will.

Like, yo, I remember— I'm afraid my kids are going to like tackle me and they're just going to put it on my head and just be like, just join us. Yeah, join us, Dad. I'm like, I don't want to do this.

Well, it's like I don't know if you remember before the phone, I remember thinking it was like batshit crazy that people, we go watch movies on this tiny screen. Why would you do that? That's like, I don't want to do that. That's no fun. I want, I love going to the theater. I love the feel of the newspaper. Yeah. If you had told me, hey, you're going to check your phone like 170 times a day.

Yeah.

I would have been like, well, why would I do, I'm not a hamster. Like I don't want to live that rat lifestyle. Just constantly checking for my email.

Yeah.

Why would I need to do that? I can just check my email once a day or whatever, you know, like the things I do normally today would have seemed really abnormal. And I would have been kind of disgusted by some of the things. And then other things I would have been like, there's no way. How would I be able to do that? It's not plugged in. Where would the internet come from?

How do you now— so now you've embraced that, but then how do you eliminate noise from your life? One of the things I'm genuinely curious about is Trung, your friend Trung, who's hilarious online. Fucking hilarious, right? My question is, I was like, I'm like, how much just internet garbage is going in that guy's head every day? I want to meet him. Where is he? In like Vancouver or something?

He's in Vancouver.

I should have invited him to the show. I was just in Vancouver. But I'm like, how much just fecal matter of garbage is going in your head for him to be like, this is the meme? Because he has to sift through.

Right, that's his job. It's filtering through shit and saying, here's one. Here's a good one.

Yeah, just more shit. Yeah. And how does that affect your body and mind? So what I'm asking you, and I would love to ask Trung, is like, for you guys, how do you eliminate just like, this is just sheer garbage. And if 80% of your day is just sifting through that, which is so much of what internet discourse is, and again, the algorithm is incentivized that just people yelling at each other, not solutions-oriented thinking and conversation and dialogue. How do you then have like a high efficacy rate? Because I feel like we live in an era now where you're busy, but you're just, you're doing absolute horseshit.

Yeah, this is where I've heard this great quote from this guy. He's an entrepreneur. I don't remember his name, but he told me something. He goes, he was talking about, I was like, so what are you doing outside of building your startup? If I'm going to invest, I first get to know what do you do when you're not coding this thing? And he was like, I got some friends. Here's what we do. And I go, he's like, yeah, we're making music. I was like, so you're trying to make a band? He's like, no, we just, we make music together because it's more fun than listening to music. I go, I go, what? And he goes, yeah, we make videos. I'm like, you trying to be a YouTuber? He's like, no, it's just better than sitting there and watching YouTube. He goes, I have this rule, which is good friends consume together, great friends create together.

Ah, that's dope.

He goes, so you can look at all your relationships and say, what percentage of the time are we just consuming? We go to a restaurant, we just consume shit versus cooking something together. When we go to the movies, we just consume something or binge watch a show versus try to make something together, make some art, do a project together, build a gingerbread house. Doesn't matter what the thing is. He goes, The great relationships in my life, I recognize they're great because we create. And the ones I want to be great, I create more than we consume. So similarly, whether it's even with work, I try to create. I think most people are consuming like 99% of the time. I think they're literally just mouth open, ingesting like whatever the hell everybody else is, you know, the few content creators are creating. They're just taking it all in and then they're hoping that their brain doesn't get like, you know, turned into like peanut butter. Yeah. What I do is like, I know it's very addictive to just sit there and scroll the feeds. Yeah, I do it from time to time, but I try to say, all right, I need to be creating 80% of the content. I'll consume 20%.

Yeah.

But of my time that I'm thinking about content, that's like, that's like doing this. I'm not with my family, I'm not in the gym, I'm not whatever. Yeah, I'm going to be creating.

Yeah.

And so I can only consume to the extent it helps me create.

How do you build community?

In the startup world, it's not hard because it's like comics probably where We're all trying to do something really hard, which is build a business from scratch that works. And so there's a misery loves company type of thing where it's like there's this rapport that's built amongst people. It's like, we'll help each other out, we'll get along with each other because we're all going through the same shit. So my community became other people who were startup founders when I was doing that. And now that I'm kind of more creating content and building an audience and a brand, It's people who are trying to do that and trying to figure out, like, we have one friend, Pomp, who is amazing at content. Like, he's great. He's building his brand. He's like the Bitcoin guy.

He's the Bitcoin guy. Yeah.

But when I look at it, I say, wow, there's a lot of things I admire about what he did. But I also got to learn that, like, I would never want to do what he's doing. He does this thing. He does a daily business show on YouTube now. Every day he wakes up 5 in the morning or whatever, and he's creating like a 3-hour live show.

Yeah. He's doing his squawk box every day, every day.

And I'm like, I get it, that would work. I would never want to do that. I never want to go that path. So I'm like trying to triangulate and learn from— but he did these other 3 things I thought were fucking dope that I'm like, oh, that's a great idea, I should add that to my game. Yeah, it's just like any athlete, it's like anybody trying to get good at anything. You surround yourself with people who are in the game trying to do the same thing as you. That's your peer group, and you commiserate and share strategies with each other. And then you have some people who already like have done it. They're kind of your mentors and you go to them, you know, from time to time and ask them for something. I'm sure you have the same thing in comedy. Totally. I would bet.

Yeah. I ask the Jedi. Yeah.

Yeah.

There's a bunch of Jedi and then there's other Padawan that are part of my like contemporary class that all the time.

Yeah. And how did you get good? Like when did you go from suck to non-suck? Like, cuz everybody starts, I believe, at suck. That's like the Pixar way. I don't know if you've heard this before. Pixar has a philosophy, which is all movies start at suck. Our job is to like remove the suck.

Yeah.

So there's non-suck left at the end.

Yeah.

Yeah. So I took that approach, man.

The Daily Show changed my life, man. Seeing the way Jon Stewart worked and especially that institution, both Daily Show and SNL, love them, hate them. They're part of their comedy institutions. SNL for 50 years now, Daily Show, 25, you know, that are these pedigree boot camps for understanding the process about how to think about comedy. And one of the things that I realized is what Jon taught me and Trevor showed me, you know, Jon really unlocked the code, but it's like, it's all about your take. What is your take? And being able to back it up. So it's not even being funny first. It's what is the take? What am I trying to say? What is the take? What am I philosophically, artistically trying to say?

And let's give an example. You had on the show last night, you're like, you met this guy who's a private equity guy. You're like, what the fuck is that?

Yeah.

He's like, oh yeah, we do like LBOs. You're like, what is this? Yeah.

What is a leveraged buyout? And he's like, well, we use debt.

You get to the bottom of it, you're like, so you use other people's money to buy other people's companies and then you ruin the people's lives in them by firing them and gutting them, making them profitable, and then you flip it to somebody else. Yeah. You're like, yeah, I'm not cool with that. Like, yeah, I think that's a little bit of a fucked up way to win is to like, yeah, this kind of like vulture, just legal stealing. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was never your money to begin with.

Yeah.

Oh, so it's, it's, it's stealing. Well, it's legal. Oh, just, just because it's legal doesn't mean it's ethical.

Right.

You know, Bill Cosby got off legally, right? We all know what it is. And so like, that is what the joke I would start with. That's my take around leveraged buyouts and vulture funds, right? Then you start tagging it. You can do that Bill Cosby tag. He got off legally.

It's not—

we all know it's unethical, whatever what he did or whatever.

The glove didn't fit O.J.

Yeah, right. Right. So you must have— okay. And then you start tagging and then the funny just starts flowing from there and then you go, that's like this. And then you can just—

what are you doing? You're sitting in a room with like a few people. You just spitballing, riffing, bantering just like that.

Yeah. And then eventually you got to put pen to paper, right? And you got to start writing the Act 1. And you start to see when I watch Weekend Update or when I see an Act 1 on The Daily Show or any of those desk segments, I now see the matrix. I now see, oh, I know how to construct a 7.5-minute piece. Last Week Tonight, Patriot Act. I know how to do a 27-minute piece on it, right? I know the beats and the flow of that. And what was really cool was it just gave me that, that central kind of like philosophy. How do I do this? And so the first 10, 11, 12 years of my career, I was just trying to be funny. And what Jon in 2014 really helped me unlock was like, no, no, no, you need to have like, um, there needs to be an actual process and purpose to what you do. Now, I'm not saying this as a virtue thing. No, just, you just need to be like, even if you're doing dick jokes or even if you're being silly, there needs to be, you need to understand the game and how to heighten it comedically. even stupid, silly jokes, you know, are like that. And so that was the unlock for me. And then just reps, trying to get as good as possible. Now, my next thing that I'm just working on the most is the jazz part of it. Like, yo, just have fun. That's always been one of my weaknesses because, like I told you, I'm a Kumon kid.

You're structured.

And so, and so we're so built around fear. And so there's these moments that I try to have on stage. I don't know if you saw, I was just like, I'm just kind of unhinged. Like the first like 3 or 4 minutes of the set, I'm just, I'm literally just riffing.

Yeah.

When I was making fun of the kids' shorts, there was a kid in the front row of the show, just short shorts. Zayn. Yeah, Zayn. Yeah, his thighs were just like all up on the chair and then like the seats in the back and, you know, seeing people come in late and then riffing off of that. It's pure jazz now. Jazz has structure, but there's also play. Right. And then you can go back to it and like, it's that organized chaos that I'm trying to like start to tap into. Yeah.

And you're doing well now. You, I don't know how you were doing before, but I'll say, let's say, when was like the, when did things start getting real good? It was about the last 4 or 5 years?

Yeah. I would say probably around like White House Correspondents' Dinner. That was my kind of big breakthrough, right? National recognition moment of like, you didn't have to be a fan of The Daily Show or just a fan of comedy. Like, I penetrated, you know, front page of the newsfeed type fame and clout and credibility type thing. Yeah.

And you, uh, so you start doing well, start making money doing this thing, which is amazing.

Yeah.

So hard to do. So you did it. Uh, yeah. And what do you do? So let's— I want to talk about the breakout, how you broke through, but So now that you're here, you've arrived, you're doing really well now. Business side of things.

Yeah.

How you running the show? So what are you just in like, dude, I'm just fucking touring 24/7. I don't even think about the money. Just goes in an account. I don't think about it yet. Are you like investing? What are you, what are you thinking about?

Yeah. And so, you know, that's the really interesting thing is now I'm starting to think more about the business side of things, not in so much of the, I'm a venture capitalist. I want a 100x, I want a 1000x. The way show business works, I think like any business really, but show business specifically is extremely predatory and it's built on this idea that we provide the labor and they're kind of banking on you being desperate, dumb, and not owning your IP and content creation. They kind of are banking on that and they meaning like the big studios, the big streamers, the powers that be, the agencies, all those sort of things. They're banking on you not knowing what it is. And I think for the first time in history, we're starting to see close groups of collaborators starting to come together and build things themselves. They can still run them through the big pipes in the studio system, but they're also like, no, no, no, we independently operate. We cook everything. We write everything completely. So like me and Prashanth, we started a company and we write, we produce, we executive produce people's projects, but we do the whole thing, kit and caboodle.

Right.

And hypothetically, Sean would come to me and go, hey, listen, man, I'm hosting this 15-minute event at this thing and I want it to fucking rip. I want it to kill. I go, cool, let's— what's your take? What do you want to say? Blah, blah, blah. Come sit down with me and PV. Let's break down your act one, right? And we'll tag it up and do all that stuff. And that's a cool opportunity for us to collaborate and for us to brown paper bag amongst each other. And I love the ethos of that. Like, hey, let's build together, right? You're an artist and a creative. I'm an artist and a creative. I think lawyers are important. I think agents are important. They're fine, but they're necessary evils. This brown paper bag, this honest relationship that we have as artisans together is of, you know, the paramount importance. And the more artists we can learn about just the business side of things, I think it's going to be for the, for the better. The other, the other part of it, man, is I'm just— I'm so much of my life was just trying to make it.

Yeah.

Now I don't even know what to do with money. I'm trying to understand what is money, what to do with it.

Right. And what's your mindset now? So what have you arrived on that?

To me, money represents, you know, and capital represents two things. Money will not solve all your problems, but money can take care of certain, certain problems. So if there's 10 problems, 4 of them say childcare, my daughter's braces, you know, being able to Uber back and forth to the airport, I can take those problems off the table.

Right.

It will not solve my marriage. It will not make me a loving father or an attentive father. Those are problems I have to solve. It won't make me in shape. It won't help my mind. But at least taking those pain points off the table means a lot to me. But there's another data point as an artist that money can help solve. Two things. It gives me the opportunity to say no to things. You have fuck you money. Like, ah, you should host this game show. Nah, I'm not going to do that. It also gives me the opportunity to imprint my worldview upon the world on my terms. So the show you saw, I own it outright. I'm not just in the comedy business.

Bet on yourself.

I'm in the trucking business. Like, I own and operate that 18-wheel truck.

You're like Mayweather now.

Those lights, those there's the holodeck that I'm standing on that glows. I own it. I don't know what I'm gonna do with it after the special, but there's a sense of empowerment of, yo, I wanna say this in the world and I have the capital to imprint my worldview upon the world. And there's a deeply empowering feeling in that. The next thing that I'm trying to learn and the reason why I wanna be on podcasts and meet people like you is artists, we need to learn more about how money works. So once you make it and you want to buy a house and provide for your family and, you know, hopefully have childcare in some capacity, and how do you not blow it on dumb shit, right? To the point where it gets really sad, man. There's a lot of artists and entertainers, you'll get hit up and they'll be like, hey, so-and-so has cancer. We need to do a comedy benefit to pay for their medical bills. I'm like, this is sad, man. This guy was on SNL. This guy was on blah blah blah. This guy was on a sitcom. And I'm like, yeah, this has to stop. Right. And, um, my question to you would be, and this is the thing I'm trying to figure out, is if you were an artist and you all of a sudden— we make our money in lump sums— you all of a sudden were given $2 million, $1 million, $500,000, you just make these lump sums, what would you do with that money? Yeah, that's the fundamental question that I'm trying to figure out and answer.

Well, the first thing is there's gonna be a bunch of people telling you what to do with your money and you gotta avoid them at all costs. Correct. The people that are swooping in with the next great opportunity and trying to get you to buy fucking, you know, Kentucky Fried Chicken franchises and shit like that. Like, yeah, you have to sort of say, all right, how do I get a trusted person who is an expert at this?

Yeah.

That is actually good at their job. And how do we align our incentives so that they're not able to just pillage me? Uh, like happens to a bunch of athletes.

Yeah.

They're not just my homeboy, you know, from, from high school or whatever. Yes, I trust them, but they may not be experts. Like, yeah, find that intersection of trust and expert.

Can I tell you where it gets really hard? You know, I'm fortunately like, again, I grew up, I'm kind of just, you know, I'm a nerdy kid. I was never— I don't roll with an entourage, right? Yeah. I pulled up in an Uber here like solo with my backpack. So I don't have all those pitfalls that other artists and entertainers have. Where they're a couple of— yeah, jewelry purchases, a couple car purchases, and a divorce away from just like losing it all.

Yeah.

You know, I'm a pretty like level-headed, you know, guy. That being said, you know, it's interesting. You try to do your research and it's crazy. I'm 36 years old. I'm starting to read about, you know, financial literacy and stuff like that. And I'll read books, I'll read JL Collins's book, and he's an advocate of VTSAX, just Vanguard funds. But when I go on the internet and I start looking through your mentions and I go through your page or Sam's page, nobody trying to fuck with VTSAX. Like, you old man, you're not on the Solana tip. How do I discern truth, ontological truth, reality, and light from just this banter with this just never-ending up-down nature of noise.

So here's how I would do it. All right, so here's how I would break it down. I'd say, what do I want? So there's some people who are saying, I'm trying to become Diddy, I'm trying to become Kevin Hart, I'm trying to do whatever, I'm trying to have this mega mega empire, billion-dollar status. Some people say, look, I came from nothing and I got this thing now. I'm not— I need a certain level of security and safety. That's what makes me happy is knowing I can never go down to zero, knowing that I can never fuck up and lose it all. It is safety for life for me and for my kids. What is that Yeah. So you start to play with these numbers. You start to say, what does life cost and what do I want? What are my goals with this? What's my burn right now? You first got to take that lay of the land. I don't need any strategy without an objective. So any strategy is meant to get you to some objective. And what most people do wrong is they're just picking strategies without really curating the objectives.

Yeah. And why?

Why? Why is that the thing? Can I stand and defend why I believe that this is what I'm going for, that this is my strategy? Um, like, how do I get to the point where I know what I want and I can defend what I want to myself? Not to, you know, like I can articulate it. Yeah. Actually why I've decided that and why I said no to these other plausible paths that might be right for others, but they're not for me.

Yeah.

So you set your goal that way. So that's the first, most important step.

My goal is two things and I've identified them because I think about these things a long time. You know, being on tour is really good because you just start to, planes are great.

You just have a lot of time. You take a shower in the air.

To think.

Yeah.

And one of the things that I thought about was like, it's two things. It's like, to me, being a father and a husband means providing financial safety and security for my kids. You know, I grew up in a family— I don't want to give away— I want to talk about this too much, but money was always a thing that people in my family argued about. And I never wanted that to be a thing here. And it's a tough thing to do if you're an artist. Are you kidding me? That's— why did you pick that path? But it was— it's what's honest to me. But to me, what money and business represents is, okay, if I can earn enough so that God forbid this goes to shit, but I have enough runway room. And this is going to sound crazy, but for 10 years, because I do deep work, like it took me 2.5, 3 years to write this show, right? Took me a long time to put it together. And I hope the depth of that resonated with you and to the audience. That's my dream. Like, yo, do you feel what this meant to me and what this— I hope, I hope you see me. I hope you see it. I hope you feel it too. But in order to do that, I have to have runway room.

Yes.

I have to have 2 years to be able to hole up and write this movie, write this thing. I have a couple of projects that are now lined up after we shoot this Netflix special, but they've required a ton of time.

Right.

Time. You need financial capital to cover your burn.

Yep.

To cover, like I said, you know, my daughter, baby girl, she has glasses now.

We got escalating burn.

Yeah. And now there's all these additional things. My mom, her knees are going, she needs knee replacement surgery. You know, I'm the eldest. These are real things. And I put it as like, no, I need that burn for, you know, 10 years.

Right.

But now we live in a world where we're not even going to retire.

Yeah.

So I have to start thinking, no, I got to be Rocky. I want to be Mel Brooks. I want to be doing this, you know, hopefully Dick Gregory. I'm doing this until I die.

Right.

I love that Dick Gregory died with dates on the books. He was going to do Rooster Teeth Feathers in Sunnyvale, California. Living legend, man. And I'm like, what an inspired life, right? So many people are like, well, he wasn't the biggest comedian. I'm like, bro, you lost the plot.

Yeah, exactly.

He's still playing the game. What a beautiful thing in his 80s, right? God, God, give— please give me life so I can continue to do that. So that's— it's that burn. What's that number? 10, maybe 10 years, 5 years. And I've told my accountant this, right? Then the other thing is, is what is the financial capital that I need to then continue to imprint my vision upon the world? So the show that you saw, the burn to run it, man, is almost $40,000 a week just in labor costs, trucking costs, getting it to venue to venue. It's a lot right now. Do that at scale. I'm touring for 6 months, 8 months, 9 months, a year. Got to take it over to Europe, to Asia, to Australia. All of those things. It's like I want to be able to count on creative capital. Yeah, only on myself. I'm not asking for a network.

Work.

You know, it's so funny, like one of the things that artists now complain about is like, the studio said this. And I'm like, hey man, we got to shift to now being like, no, no, no, we have that. Now in order to do that, I got to be able to make money not at a 1x, 2x, 5x. I have to start making moves that can potentially 10x it because it can then cover that burn. So those are my two missions.

Yep.

How do I continue to do King's Jesters and take care of my family? I'm not trying to be a billionaire. It's just those two things.

Yeah. So that will give you a number or set of a range.

Yeah.

Then you say, all right, what are the strategies that could be that get me to that? And you're not going to know them yourself because you're like, well, I spent 10 years getting fucking amazing at comedy, not the money game, right? The money game is its own game. I'm going to respect that the same way when I'm like, dude, I want to do comedy. I know comedy means it's a game that I, I know what it was like to be an absolute beginner in business. I got my ass kicked for 8 years straight. It's probably going to feel very similar if I ever wanted to even just have the experience of going and doing a 5-minute comedy set. I'm probably going to have to get my ass kicked for a year or two to just be able to go do that. So you got to say, all right, how do I find somebody that's going to do that? And I need somebody who— I need them more than they need me. That'd be a great thing to have, right? Because a lot of people who need you, they need you for the clout, they need you for the money, they need you for many things. So you need to find somebody who doesn't really need you. They're happy to help. They're happy to offer. They get something of it. It has to be a mutual exchange.

Yeah.

But they're good already. And so that's why I like hanging out with people who are good already. So when I go to them, they're not trying to dig into, oh yeah, here's a business idea. Here's what you should do. By the way, can I get some advisor shares? Can I get some equity? It's like, well, you don't, they don't need that because they're already playing the game at a higher level in the money game. So they don't need me for money when it comes to that. So I can trust their advice from that sense. Cause, or, you know, they're not looking for that. So then you get a bunch of strategies. You say, all right, here's my safety playbook. I want this amount of money that's in something like Vanguard low-cost ETFs that's expected to grow 7%. I could chart that out and say, all right, that's what that looks like over 10 years. Then I need my high-risk, high-reward part of the portfolio. That's the—

And I've read those books. Jason Kalkanis has a book where he's just like, hey, take $100,000 and turn it into $100 million. Let me ask you this. Is that real?

That part I do not believe is real. I think that would be very misguided.

And I don't know You know, my whole thing is, you know, and you can like it, not like my comedy, whatever. But I'm trying to meet people where they're at, right? I love people, bro. Like, I never want to lose— I call it the cost of milk energy. If you ask my dad, how much is milk? My dad will be like, in Manhattan, at the bodega, or at Costco over in New Jersey. If we go over the bridge, he'll tell you the cost of milk. I love that. Like knowing how much gas is. Knowing how much it is to like lease or buy a Corolla. It's why I drive an Odyssey, right? It's like, man, I want to fuck with people. I love people. So for me, one of the biggest things that I'm trying to do also is like, if I can learn, perhaps even through my comedy, through my gift, I can help meet the people where they're at. I'm never going to run with the A16Zs, right? Maybe. Who knows? They may. They want me to. They may want me to like perform at their birthday party or something with Drake.

You know, the kid's 12th birthday.

Just like, oh, they really like Hasan. Come, come do 10 minutes. But I'm talking about like, man, that I'm speaking to that. It's funny, I had this joke that I did on Patriot Act where I made fun of Bitcoin, the dudes who like tell me to invest in Bitcoin. I said, I believe in Bitcoin. I just don't believe in the people that tell me to get Bitcoin because it's all my homies that told me to take out a subprime mortgage in 2008. I'm like, Travis, get a property. Yeah, you wanted me to, you wanted me to take out a second mortgage. Oh, hey. Yeah. And why are you just like all like Diamond Hands now. You're Diamond Handsing me to death or whatever. And they're like, you dumb motherfucker. Look, it's at $60K now. And the comic in me is like, bro, keep it 100. Keep it 100 with me. Use your government. Look me in the eye. Tell me honestly. The reality is, is you have $10K in the bank. The cost of living in Milpitas is too high. And you need that shit to fucking 200x. And so you are betting everything on this. And that's why my jokes are getting to you. Now look me in the eye and use your government name and tell me, am I lying?

So I think that—

Am I being real? Check me. If I'm wrong, check me, Sean.

Uh, you're not wrong. You're not wrong. What I would say is—

But maybe I'm misguided. Maybe—

There's a certain level of skepticism you have that is absolutely needed.

Yeah.

And you have to get to the root of—

Yeah.

Why are you saying this? Do you know what you're talking about? What is in it for you if I do this? You know, you know, you don't want to be blind following the blind. Yeah. What I do, one thing that works for me, that's like a hack, a cheat code. When I was doing that sushi restaurant thing I told you about, we were trying to find the perfect location. They said in restaurants, location is everything. So we're like, oh, fucking gotta be location experts. We're scouting, we're doing all this real estate shit, we're looking up. And then we just realized, hey, Chipotle puts like, you know, billions of dollars into picking the right location. Why don't we just go right next to wherever Chipotle is? And that's actually the strategy that Quiznos and a whole bunch of other brands had used. Noodles and Company, if you go look next to a Chipotle, there'll be a Noodles and Company there, or there'll be a Subway there. They all just, they're like, well, they do all the research and they're an attraction. So like, yeah, we just go next to them. We could piggyback because they're putting their skin in the game. They're not just telling us it's a good location.

Yeah.

They are putting down their roots. They're investing money.

Yeah.

Which means this is probably a good idea.

Yeah.

So I have a couple buddies who I'm like, look, "Look, you've been successful in this game. What are you putting your money into now? And in what ratios are you putting them in? How much of your money are you putting into these things? And how do you think about them?" And I triangulate between 4 people like that. I say, "Okay, now I have a base understanding of where they are putting their skin in the game. They're not telling me to do it because they get something out of it. They are themselves investing in this and they're doing a certain amount of diligence that they are in a space that they understand." And so you're able to get, there's an intelligent way to copy. And then follow. Yeah, there's an intelligent way to follow and then there's an unintelligent way to follow as well.

Yeah.

The unintelligent way to follow is I heard some shit from some guy who's got an incentive to sell me this thing.

Yeah.

And I don't really understand why he's telling me to do this and I can't really ask him. I don't know what percentage of his portfolio is in this, you know, so I can shill some random cryptocurrency I'm excited about.

Yeah.

People are like, oh, you said that was great. Yeah. I put half a percent of my net worth into it because I understood it in this way and I thought had this risk-reward. You put 30% of your net worth into it. I never told you to do that. Yeah, I never told you to do anything, but you interpreted X as Y. Yeah. So there's an intelligent and an unintelligent way to do it. But that's kind of my approach of like how I would do this. I would say, all right, there's a money game you got to learn. I'm going to learn along the way.

Yeah.

I'm going to speed up my learning curve by partnering with people who already are playing this game at a higher level than me that don't need any— they don't need the money from me. They're not getting a cut of me. Yeah. But they're happy to do it because It's cool to know a comedian. Yeah. You know, it's like a social benefit.

Yeah.

Like, it's just, it's fun, right? And so like, there's, that's how I would approach it if I was him. The other thing you said, which is important, which is the artists have to get leverage. So like people were last night when we were leaving the show, I was talking to my sister and I said, oh, it's amazing. This, my dad was like, I can't, my dad the whole time I told you I bought the beer. He's like, I can't believe you bought that beer at the show. So expensive. That beer's a dollar at Costco. I was like, I know, I understand that.

Yeah.

I'm having an experience at the show here. I wanted to have a beer and enjoy the show. Yeah. That was worth $13 to me. I know the beer only cost $1. Which is crazy.

$13.

And so he's like, I can't believe so many people pay to come to the show. How can they afford a show like this? And I said, well, people care about, they're having fun. This is their budget. I understand you don't allocate your budget to that. They do. And he was like, this guy must be doing amazing because he did 8 shows or whatever in Bay Area. He's got a Netflix show. And I say, yeah, he's doing great. I'm sure he's doing great. But also think about, I don't know what your Netflix deal is, but I know that if I was offered a Netflix deal, I'd have to do it for zero essentially. Netflix kind of knows that I have to say yes to have a Netflix show. So my bargaining power is probably very low. So even though it's a big deal and it might do well, my negotiating power in that situation, my leverage is low versus this show that you own, your leverage is higher. So it's like, I say, Just because somebody has certain things you do for distribution and fame and certain things you do to monetize.

And that was the Comedy Central deal. You're on The Daily Show, you're on SNL to be on a cultural institution.

Exactly. To get your name built. They know they can pay you whatever. And so how do you get the leverage back? And so that's where there's this idea, by the way, that— I forgot who said this. Somebody said this, I'm stealing it. But why wouldn't comedians create— Oh, so everybody's getting big checks from Netflix and others to go do a special now. And okay, here's, you know, I think Chappelle, whatever, something like $30 million, $20 million. I don't know what the numbers are, but it's on that rank. Very big upfront payday. They know they're making the money on the back end, otherwise they wouldn't offer that kind of money. Yeah.

But also a key data point you need to know is it's just like you cannot use Ronaldo's deal, LeBron's deal, Steph Curry's ultra max deal, or Chappelle's ultra max deal, because the delta between who the capital markets are paying, number one, Man, you gotta see what Buddy Heald on the Sacramento Kings is making. No, because Buddy's solid. But what is he— but is he top 10 in the league? Is he top 15 in the league? That's the real— again, I talk about the Costco milk thing. That's the real working class artist. If you can't be Kevin Hart, if you can't be Jeff Bezos, if you can't be Chamath or whatever, and you can't ball out at a bill, then what do you— what are the moves you make? Exactly. That's the way I'm trying to operate my life. Hey, assume you won't be Will Smith. You won't be the biggest movie star in the world and the capital markets are going to pay you at 1,000x. Say they pay you at 10x. What moves do you then do to have a healthy, happy artistic career for the rest of your life? That's my mission. I want to continue to make art that's honest for the rest of my life.

Yeah. So I think, well, I'll answer your question.

But let's—

but the idea real quick is the idea is if the artists got together and created the streaming technology now is actually like pretty standardized off the shelf. You can You can have a white-labeled version of Netflix.

Yes.

In 6 months.

Yes.

The thing is, you need draws. And so, like, if somehow— and this is always the coordination problem. Yeah. If you could somehow coordinate the key artists to say, hey, we can own this motherfucker, we can actually create our own platform. That's a comedy streaming service that people pay for. Yeah. And we're going to share the dividends sort of like meritocratically, meaning if I come to watch your show, if I subscribe to the service.

Yeah.

Because of Hasan's show. You're going to get the bounty of my joining. And then if I also watch, you know, 3 other artists, they're going to get some cut of the subscription. It can be what crypto and other things are enabling is a basically creator-owned platform. Somebody's going to do this. I don't know if it's in comedy or if it's in some other music or something.

What's Triller? Triller's kind of like that, right?

No, it's the same thing. It's a company. Then they cut checks, they get the artist to come on board and then they pimp out the artist to go get customers. And the artist feels like they're getting a good deal because they're cash rich but they're equity poor. They're getting— and you know, they might cut a deal with Jake Paul or something because Triller has nothing to lose. So they're like, yeah, you get 2%. Yeah. You know, they'll cut that to 1%. Yeah. What I'm talking about is if Chappelle, Kevin Hart, if you could somehow coordinate the forces that be.

Yeah.

To say, let's create a platform, let's only put our art on this platform. Comedy is one of those things where the fans will pay to jump the fence to get the thing.

Yeah.

And they're willing to pay to also support their—

you know, it's funny, I have the answer to that.

But so that would be a platform that would be valued. It could eventually be valued, you know, easily single-digit billions of dollars that would be creator-owned. And then as you cycle out and the next comedian comes up, they would just basically join the syndicate. They'd be pumping their fan base into it and they would be getting their proportionate share based on how much audience they're bringing to the platform.

So I'm presenting, so now I'd love your analysis on this. Again, I don't know, I'm trying to learn, but I'll just share the things that I've learned from just being in the circle. You know, shout out to my man AZ. AZ was, you know, Chappelle was doing all these summer camps in Ohio and one of my comedian friends, AZ, I think you've met with him. He was saying, he asked Dave, he goes, and I love AZ. AZ's like, he's always been a futurist.

He's the writer of Remy, right?

Yeah. And he's, but he's always been a futurist. He's always been 20 years ahead. And I tell AZ, I go, AZ, you got the Al Gore problem in 2000. It's like the internet. Everyone's like, shut up.

Yeah. You look like an idiot. Than 20 years ahead.

You don't wanna be 20 years ahead. You wanna be maybe like 3 to 5 years.

4 years. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

You don't wanna be that guy with the Oculus and you're like, bro, this sucks. That's always my thing. I was like, I don't wanna be the Oculus dude. You know what I mean? You're gonna watch Jungle Book on Oculus. I'm like, it's giving me a headache. Like, cut this shit out. Anyways, he goes up to Dave and he goes, Dave, man, come on, bro, you're the GOAT. You're number one. You could just put it up on davechappelle.com and everybody would pay you $5 or $10 or $15, $20, maybe Radiohead style. $100. Nipsey Hussle, right? Proud to pay.

And Louie did that. Yeah.

Dave's like this. He goes like this. He goes, new fans. What about new fans? What that Netflix billboard gives you is it pumps that tile out in front of you, whether you like it or not. I don't know Sam Parr. Yeah, I slid in Sam's DMs. Sam, I slid in your DMs. You didn't hit me back. Back. But when he's with his wife and they open up the—

yep—

and they see my tile and they see my, like, my raccoon on Adderall face, Sam now has to reckon with that. Then Sam, he's sitting on the couch, he pulls out his phone, and then he sees you retweet my thing, and he's like, man, this Indian dude, what's up about this guy? Let me see this guy. Boom. I've now picked up Sam Parr. I know I'm gonna convert with you. Your cousins are going to talk about me, your, your sister's going to talk about me, whatever. But I'm talking about new fans, you know what I mean? And the distribution they do to get new fans on board, that's what this Proud to Pay movement doesn't have.

Right.

So everybody's told me, hey, start an online shop. I'm like, cool, I'll do Homecoming King, Lok Yau Kang shirts. Cool. What about your 3 other coworkers? The dude in that room? I want them to know who I am.

Right.

So that's what, you know, Louis put out his last special, Sincerely, Louis CK. Did you see it? No. Why didn't you see it? Because it was just a closed network between him and his direct fans. People couldn't get outraged about it. They couldn't write about it, which would then get you to— it would titillate you and you'd be like, I'm gonna watch it.

Right.

Which would then get you to watch it and he'd pick you up as a new fan.

Yeah, it had— yeah, exactly. That's 100% true.

It's closed.

It has to be paired with a pretty aggressive clips strategy, right? So like one of the ways you grew was not because I watched 60 Minutes of the correspondence speech, 45 minutes, it was a long speech, right?

Yeah, it's 27 minutes long.

27 minutes. It's because a couple of those clips get on Instagram, they get shared, they're TikTok, they go viral. And Twitter, Instagram, TikTok, that's where you'd have to basically pair it with that. That'd be the only way that you could get the exposure is to say, there's great shit, we're going to use YouTube, we're going to use TikTok, we're going to use whatever, and we're actually going to, they're going to take the best stuff, we're going to dangle it over there, we're going to let that be shareable. It still may not work to actually assume You're like the new fan. That's why.

That's the interesting thing.

There's that and the coordination problem, which is the biggest people you want, they're getting overpaid by the networks because that's the strategy of the network.

Lock them in.

Lock them in. And then every other artist has to follow at almost below market rate because this is where all the headliners are. You want to be where they are. That's what feels like a first-class thing as an artist.

Yeah. If I'm in the airport and people are like, what do you do? You're a comedian? I go, yeah, yeah. And then I go, yeah, how did I see you?

Go download DAZN. Yeah.

And I'm just like, Netflix. They go, Netflix? Because Netflix has that the dumb factor. Just like, damn, man, my kids watch Cocomelon. I watch Netflix, I watch blah, blah, blah. So the thing is, Amazon, Disney, and Netflix right now, they're running it. And I'm trying to think, to me, I'm trying to have a barbell approach to it. So if you follow me on Instagram, I put out content, I put out videos. Tyler, my videographer, we put out stuff, but I'm trying to barbell it. And I'm trying to figure out, yeah, how do we start to monetize those things? Now, the most, the most, the clearest sign of that that I've seen, which has a low cost of entry, has been podcasting. Comedians podcasting and people like Tom Segura, people like Joe Rogan, people like Andrew Schultz. Those guys have been able to call me, call, call your daddy. You know, people in that podcast, Dax Shepard, people in that space. Artists have been able to build up their own independent platforms and have more leverage. Here's my issue with it. I find it very risky to put up every single thought and idea that I have in real time on the internet. I'm gonna be candid with everybody listening. I have no hidden thing here. I'm just be transparent. The reason why I'm honest is I love what you do. I think what you do is honest and sincere, and I think artists need to start to talk to people. In your space to be like, you understand business, we understand art, how can we work together? How does this all— how do these, these two worlds now merge, right? Without being part of a, a multinational conglomerate and then have business affairs and lawyers and all that stuff muck it up. That's the interesting new world that I'm really excited about. And that's what I'm trying to figure out.

Yeah, I love it. Yeah. I don't know how much time you got.

I got time.

I want to be respectful.

No, I got time.

Are the cameras still rolling? Are they? Yeah. Perfect. Yeah. Let's finish up with a couple of things. You, do you listen to the pod? I don't know if you actually listen to the pod.

I listen to the pod.

Yeah. Amazing. Yeah. When you listen to it, you, there's always the beautiful part when a guest listens to the show, because most, I would honestly, most guests don't, but they, if they do, the best part is there's a moment on podcasting when you're at home and you're hearing people talk about stuff and you're screaming either like, you don't get it. Yeah. Talk about this instead. Or no, I disagree. And like, they normally never get the mic. They just have to sit there and sort of punch air as we just drone on about whatever the hell we're talking about.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

What are those things that when you're listening, you're like, I would say this, or I want to know about this, or I want to talk about this. What are those things for you? As you know, now you broke through the wall and you're here. Yeah.

For me, I'll tell you the moment that I loved. And by the way, this has been my ethos with comedy writing, and I learned this at The Daily Show. You can only tear something down, and this also works with movie writing and script writing. If you tear something down, you gotta pitch an alt. Don't just shit on the idea, pitch an alt.

Right.

And what's the alt joke? What's the alt take? Otherwise, sit down. Like, sit on the sideline. You're not in the game. So I'll tell you what I love. Actually, there's— I don't have a ton of criticism. I've actually asked those questions. The one that I loved is you guys had this run that you and Sam did. There was two things that I sincerely loved. You guys had this thing up. If you had $1 million, what would you do with it today? I loved that. Then there was another thing that you did that was really cool. It was vulnerable. And again, the reason why it resonated with me is at a level of honesty and transparency in it. You guys were candid about your asset portfolio distributions, right? And Sam was like, I'm a little bit more conservative. Conservative. And you're like, I'm more risky, right? And there's two moments I love. It was the thing, what would I do with $1 million? And there's a moment that you did where you were like, I want to move through the world in a way— what if I was worth $100 million and I want to build my days around that? Yeah, but where did you get that from? So there's two things I love. Those are just two things I love. But I want to actually just tag that with a question. Where did you get that attitude? That like, that BDE? That's a, that's a, that's a big dick energy.

I had a thing. I was talking to the, when I got it, when we got acquired, we went to Twitch.

Yeah.

And they brought in this guy who became like an issue reporter straight to the CEO. And they brought in this guy who became the chief product officer. And he was like, Twitch is like this gamer, young Gen Z, millennial type of product. This guy comes in, gray hair. Doesn't play video games, you know, was like at Google in 2003 or some shit like that. And he's obviously smart and accomplished in the tech world, but seemed like so out of touch with the product. Yeah. So people were like, ah, why do we have this guy? Like internally, like rumblings in the engineering ranks, which is sort of like, this guy doesn't get it. Like the people already hate upper management in general. They always think that out of touch, making bad decisions. So there was this like skepticism. Is this guy going to get it? And he would ask questions in meetings that were like, Oh, like, you don't— like, you do know what Fortnite is? Like, wait, how are you— how do you have this job if you don't know? Like, he didn't know what Minecraft was, Discord for exactly. Yeah, but he was just— he didn't care. He was like, I'm asking questions to learn. Why would I ask? I'm obviously— if I'm asking the question, I don't know. I think it's important to know. Yeah, you think I should know this, so I'm just gonna learn it right here. Like, instantly, he didn't care. Yeah, he asked a bunch of questions. When I, um, he asked me— he sat down with me, he was like, uh, let's do like a one-on-one. He's like, all right, it's career, career planning or whatever. And he's like, so what do you want to do? And I basically, when you sell your company, you have this deal, this vesting structure. So it's like you basically get some cash up front, and then it's like after 1 year you're going to get your next big check, and after 2 years you're going to get the next big check. And if you make it to year 3, you get the last bit. I didn't make it to year 3. I only got 2.

But wow, at somewhere self-imposed, or you guys kind of—

oh yeah, I was just like, this is enough. I want to go do other shit.

Yeah.

Uh, I'm surprised I even got to 2. Like, 1 I knew I would do because 1 locked in my family security. So I was like, I'm going to suck this up and I don't care how bad this sucks. I'm going to get that year. I'm going to lock in like family is good. I'm going to get the bag. And so I was there and he was like, what is the number?

If you don't mind me asking, what is that number in the Bay Area?

I had always said $6 million. I said $6 million is where your money works for you. Up till then, you're working for money. Your money works for you at $6 million.

Why did I say $6?

Because I said, all right, you work backwards. So I said, all right, My burn rate, I think at the time I calculated it, I was like, we're spending like $20,000 a month.

Okay.

Was my like monthly expenses. And I said, okay, well I don't know if it's going to go up or down, but sorry, I know it's not going to go down. It's probably only going to go up.

Right.

Because it's very hard to give things up once you have certain services or certain lifestyle or certain size house, whatever. You don't want to plan to downsize. I wanted to plan to buffer in some growth. I said, okay, so that gets you to $240,000 a year. Okay, so let's say $240,000. How do I make it so that just the interest on the money I own, so just the gains on that money being invested in the market, and I don't need a home run.

Yeah.

Just like if I'm making—

Sam and whatever.

Yeah, if I'm making 7%, or let's call it 4 or 5%, is like 4 or 5% as a target.

Yeah.

So then you just do the math. As the rule is, I don't do public math, but you take $240,000, you divide it by the 5% or whatever, and that gives you some number. So I forgot what the calculations were, but I know the number came out to about $6 million. $6 million invested would yield an amount of money that will pay for our lifestyle rather than me going and working a job or doing something that requires income to pay for our lifestyle. So I came up with this number and some people were like, that's too low. Some people are like, why is your monthly expenses so high? I said, look, I like to live a certain way. I'm going to try to live that way. I'm not telling you you need to spend this much money.

I'm going to get Chipotle with avocado. I like avocado.

Exactly. The guac's extra. I said, give me 2 servings. That's what I wanted to be able to not have any weight on on that. And so I was like, all right, well, that's the— I'm trying to live that guac life. And so that became a target number. And I said, all right, I want to hit that number. And I said, okay, so I was trying to secure that bag. So winding back to this question of how did I get this mindset? So I talked to the guy, he takes me in, he says, what are your career plans?

So you got to 6 though?

I got to the 6. And I said, all right, well, how do I—

Post-tax, right?

It's US fee. You have to have it. You have to have it. Exactly. So I said, all right, well, So he goes, when you think about your career, what are you going to do? And I knew that the right answer is to say, oh, you know, I love it here at Twitch and I would love to stay here forever and I could see myself being you someday. But the reality was I couldn't. I was having fun because I made it my way, but I was like, this is not where I want to be forever. And I was like, I'm just going to be honest with this guy. I'm not going to tell him. And it's a weird conversation. You're basically telling your boss, I don't plan to be here for very long, which is in a way saying, don't invest in me. You know, like, don't promote me, don't give me opportunities, give it to the next guy because he cares. It was kind of like a weird thing, but I decided I'm going to be honest. So I told him, he goes, all right, so what do you want to do? He's like, then we don't need to talk about this Twitch shit. Like, tell me what you want to do. I said, well, first I'm doing this so that then I can go do this thing I want to do. He goes, I don't believe all that. I go, what, you don't believe I want to do this? He goes, no, I don't believe that strategy of life. I don't believe in this life plan of I'm going to do all the stuff I don't want to do so that then I could do all these things I do want to do.

You're mortgaging for a future that may not happen.

Exactly. This is never going to come. He's like, I've been around the block.

Fuck.

People who have that plan, he's like, very rarely do you ever do the thing you want to do. He said, much better just do the thing you want to do. Start that now. Don't spend 5 years doing the thing you don't want to do because it's a means to an end.

But then what you're talking about is that if you had approached that, you would've never perhaps gotten that 6.

Exactly. So he had a different mindset. So I said, all right, well, what does that look like? And so he goes, why don't you just figure out what you want to do, figure out what it requires, what amount of money, what skills, what you would require, and start accumulating those. So that's actually where the 6 came in. I said, oh, I want to be able to wake up every day and do a certain amount, do a certain thing, which is basically wake up and just work on whatever I was most interested in. Like I told you, dude, I want to do comedy sometime.

I want to do it.

I want to do, I have these other things. I'm like, dude, why don't I make a song that just slaps? Like, why don't I just make a catchy-ass song?

That seems like— I want to produce. I want to produce a record.

Yeah. I don't know anything about it, but I was like, wouldn't that be fun if I just made a catchy-ass song that kind of hit? And I'm not trying to be the best musician, but why not? Why not write a book? Why not do all these things? That'd be a fun way to spend a career. That's kind of how I thought about it. So I said, all right, well, if I want to be able to do that, I got to have this.

You need time.

Yeah, I got to have time.

That's deep work.

So I said, let me start accumulating.

Comedy, standup, DJing, acting.

So that was kind of my mindset. And so along the way, again, I talked to my trainer and he goes, is if you want to have a certain thing, carry yourself like the guy who has that thing. Very simple.

Really? The fake it till you make it thing?

Not even fake it till you make it. You believe you will feel a certain way when you have it, right? That's why you want— let's say you want $100 million, you want a billion dollars, whatever your number is, $5 million, $1 million. You believe you want that because you think you're going to feel a certain way when you have it.

Yeah.

So let's skip all the middle shit and let's just believe that we have this. Let's believe that we're going to have that. Let's carry ourselves like that. Let's have that feeling now. Don't punt the feeling until the end when you're 60.

Okay.

And maybe you've achieved your goal.

So what he's basically saying is a level of confidence, right? And confidence and security and not playing scared.

Exactly.

Yeah. Then the byproduct of that, you know, the comedy take I had on this, by the way, is the way my brain works. The extremely wealthy and the homeless actually operate the same way, which is what?

Delusion.

Which is what? Is what? Anything I do isn't going to affect my life anyways. What are you going to do? The incredibly rich.

That's funny.

And people who are like, they have the same mindset.

Yeah.

Are, are just like, hey, what are you going to do to me? What can you take from me?

Right.

They both actually operate that same way. Sometimes it's people that are in that vast middle that fear either direction. That are like, oh, I cannot fuck this up.

Yes.

Yeah.

So that's the mindset is basically don't wait. Waiting is the enemy. So when you're waiting to feel good until you've achieved certain things, anytime you hear the word wait, run. That's not the right strategy. And so it's like anytime you're waiting to do the thing you want to do, don't wait. That's kind of became my mindset. I just realized.

Got it. You mean don't put it off.

Don't put it off.

Right.

Don't wait till X in order to have Y that you really want. I want.

Gotcha.

So if I want this feeling of security, of, of relaxation, of confidence, whatever, why am I waiting? Let me tap into that now. So that became both, uh, it had two benefits. There's the benefit, which is you feel better today. That's already, already a win. Yeah. Instead of feeling anxious and stressed and worried, you're already feeling good. But there's also a strategy to it, which is when you carry yourself like that dude, when you carry yourself that way, You'd be surprised what kind of doors sort of open for you, how people treat you differently. They, they treat you with the assumption of what you treat yourself. Why do you dress the way you dress? Why do you carry yourself the way you carry yourself? Because people will treat you differently. Life will give to you what you're putting out there.

But I also feel it too. Like, I like being fitted. I like wearing like Jordans. Yeah.

And it makes you feel good. You get the immediate feeling, which is already good. Yeah. And then you get the actual, like, I think this Harvard guy called it the happiness effect. He basically said most people wait till they achieve a thing, then they're going to feel happy. And then what happens is you achieve that thing and you just move the goalposts. Well, this is not enough. When I really have it, then I can do it. And so they just keep moving the goalposts and never do it. He's like, not only is that obviously deferring the thing you want, which is bad, two, he said there's studies that will show that the person who goes into the situation already feeling happy will perform better on the test, will be better in the professional setting, will have a higher likelihood of success, will have more lucky breaks. That was one of the things they tested. Tested, they gave you a test and the third line of the instructions said, just go to the end, just write the letter 5 in and you're done. And the people who went in with a stress mindset, they were just trying to solve all the problems and they had to do the whole test. The people who went in relaxed and confident, they were more likely to observe that little line and say, oh, another break that goes my way.

Oh, great.

So I'm going to skip to the end, hand the test in, I'm done. And so that's called, when I started to learn about this sort of happiness effect, this This idea that if you bring the future feeling you're chasing into the now, not only do you feel good now, but you actually have better results. I was like, that's the thing I want.

But it's also a mindset shift where you're operating different than Sam. Sam's like, I'm not going to take those crazy bets.

Sam's the opposite.

But why?

Why is he the opposite?

Yeah. So what I'm saying is Sam may look objectively at— or it's his subjective experience at your financial situation and be like, you can't afford that. You can't afford to start this like $1 million fund and just with randos off the internet and just start betting things.

Yeah.

Why are you doing that? You could lose it. Yeah.

It served him well. Like, I think, you know, there are many ways to win.

What I'm trying to do is get you guys to beef. I'm trying to get you guys— I'm joking.

I'm choosing—

I'm actually curious.

Play style. Like, there's this great Conor McGregor quote where he goes, look, you're going to feel some kind of way anyways, right? Like, at any moment you're feeling some kind of way. So he's just like, he's like, why not feel unstoppable? Why not feel— why not feel super confident?

Yeah.

Yeah, it's the same sort of thing, which is that there's many ways to win, but you do get to choose. And Sam's way to win, and many successful entrepreneurs the same way, which is chip on my shoulder, my dad never loved me, you know, uh, I— people doubted me and that drives me and that's why I'm successful. And they'll tell you this proudly, and I hear it and I'm just like, man, you sound like you've been suffering for a long-ass time. You know you didn't have to do all that, right? Like, yeah, yeah, I'm, I'm glad it worked for you, but also like the toll was high on that highway, right? You paid an expensive vig, which was every day you were focusing on like, yeah, the grind, grindset mindset, and you're, you're focusing on proving people wrong and how, right, how it, you know, the doubters and how you had to like kill yourself to make this work. I know people who did it the other way, so let's agree that, let's agree that both can happen.

Yeah, let's, let's also do a quick delineation though. When you said you're moving like you're worth $100 million So you're not—

I don't make size bets. Like, obviously there's a cause of gravity.

No, but there's a way to move to be like, hey, because I'm serious, because there's people that may be listening that are just like, let me get that. Let me get that Rolex Daytona, right? Let me feel that way, right? If it's $100 million, then it's probably a Rolls-Royce Phantom. It's probably a, you know what I mean? A Maserati, a Ducati, whatever that thing may be. You're not making those things, are you?

Yes and no. So the things that matter, like I hired a personal chef. Okay, that's something that really the only like the ultra wealthy typically do. Okay, I was like, no, this matters to me. I want— this is the number one want I have. I think it helps me and my family be healthy. We don't have to stress out about making food all the time for our daughter who's real picky and she keeps throwing away. We got to remake dinner, right? I said, this will improve the quality of my life. I don't care if we can afford it. I'm going to get it and I'm going to— then I'm going to afford it, right? Because I'm not like— I know I believe in myself, my ability to go get that money.

Yeah.

So I will not limit myself in the things that I really care about. Yeah.

Yeah. It's a true belief. It's something that you really want for you and your family.

I truly wanted it. I'm not going to wait again. I was waiting. I said, oh, I identified all the spots in my life I was waiting. I said, I got to get rid of waiting. That's the thing I really want and I'm waiting for it. No more. I'm going to do it now.

Got it.

But do I go and just spend outside of like, outside of what I care about and what I have? Like, no. No, I don't. And I don't because I also don't want to be owned by those things. Every time you buy something, it now owns you as much as you own it. Because that bill owns you in a way. It owns a piece of your time because you got to pay for it. I'm very selective about, do I want this enough where I'm willing to let it own me a little bit? And so then I don't need a lot of those things. And I also have this, like, this is, you're good at these questions, man. The last thing I do is, I want to be able to have as much fun whether I'm in a mansion having a feast with celebrities as if I'm stuck in an elevator by myself. Which means I don't want to have to have some nice shit in order to feel good. I don't want to have to have the circumstances be going my way for me to feel good.

But that's self-satisfaction. That's you training. I want to train my brain. Yeah, but that's you doing what? You're training your brain, you're meditating, you're boxing, whatever that thing is. So you feel a self-sense of self-satisfaction. That's $0. It's not $100 million. That's not $100 million or $100,000.

Exactly. Because the ultimate goal, the ultimate way to carry myself isn't that I had the $100 million. It's I just remind myself of that if I ever start to feel lack.

Because when I heard that, what resonated with me as an artist is play big.

Yeah, play big.

Why are you playing scared? Cook. You're on the court. Cook. Let it fly. Launch. Be loose, do the impressions, do characters. That's what my thing is like. That's my goal. I want to be loose. I want to have fun. I want to be really get on the floor.

So use a basketball analogy because I know you love basketball. Yeah. In researching for this, I saw your celebrity game. Got a nice left hand. Go with the left.

Yeah.

You're not lefty, right?

No, I'm left.

I'm righty. But you were very nice with the left. The analogy is this. Steph Curry's not afraid to shoot his shot anywhere on the court. Once he passes half court, he's willing to let it fly. That doesn't mean every time he steps across half court, he just lets it fly because he knows, The ultimate goal is to win.

Yes.

But he's not afraid to shoot his shot. He's not thinking about missing. He's thinking about making. His confidence in that make. Yeah. So I would say a very similar thing on the business side, which is I don't just spend like a drunken sailor or invest in the most wild shit possible all the time. I'm not trying to take every risk possible. Yeah. I'm not trying to shoot every shot at half court, but I am confident if I pulled—

But you're not afraid to let it fly.

If I pulled or if I'm feeling it, it.

Yeah.

Or if I believe I can make the shot, I'm gonna pull.

Yeah.

Even if I miss the last 3, even if this is not what other people—

like, this feels right.

This feels right. Yeah. I put in the time and I have the confidence in myself and I'm not gonna second-guess it.

Yeah.

So that's where I'll make—

cool—

some— take some risks that feel right to me in the moment. But the overall objective is to win. It's not to take maximum, maximum risk possible. Yeah. It's also not to minimize risk. It's to win. And you got to define what that win is for yourself, right? My definition of the win for myself is I want to have the lifestyle where I'm at the mansion with my best friends. We're at the table, we're feasting, we're toasting. That's what I want.

Yeah.

But I want to be able to have as much fun if I'm alone, stuck in an elevator. That is my ultimate win, where my mind has created that situation where I can have all those things.

Yeah.

But I'm— I am impervious to the environment. Great. I will have just— so that's my ultimate win. Yeah. I'll take enough risks along the way to get to that, you know, as I go.

That's great. Last question. This is from— this is from me to —people gonna be pissed, by the way.

They're like, dude, you had Hasan on, you just talked about your own fucking philosophy.

No, you know what I'm gonna say this right now for the listeners and the watchers. People are gonna be like, he interrupted Sean too much, and why is he talking like this about Bitcoin? People are gonna be like, Sean, you know you're not the star of this. No, no, no, I'm coming from here. I humble myself before all you, my first million people. So listen, let's see. I love this. Again, this is what I love most about IRL experiences, about being on stage stage, doing material in front of people, hearing the applause break, knowing that that joke is right because I've corroborated it with the people. Sometimes comics, when a joke doesn't work, they'll be like, fuck you, I know better. And sometimes that works. But there's a lot of times where it's like, no, no, no, hear them, listen to them, see them. You want to be seen, but you got to see them. For you as an outsider, you know, we don't know each other well. This is our first time actually meeting. When you watch the show and you see me, what would be your advice for somebody like me that's at this point in my career? I'm at an inflection point in my career. I represent a certain period of time. Me, my contemporaries, me, John Mulaney, Ali Wong, we're entering that new era that the Bill Burrs and the Chapelles are— those are the elder statesmen of the art form. What is your— what is your advice to someone like me looking at it from the outside? Because you have such a great business mind.

Yeah, I think what's, what's worked for you is going to keep working. That's why I said before, I think you have zagged when everybody zigged. Uh, so everybody was going in one direction, which was, which is low accountability, low risk. Yeah. Um, doing things under, uh, you know, worried about cancel culture and things like that. I think you have built a niche where you're You're not afraid to call out the Saudi prince. You're not afraid to call out the president, but you're calling out not from a place of getting a reaction. You're calling out when you see a truth, you're putting your finger on it and saying, I don't care if this hurts. I don't care if this is a nerve. I'm going to have my take on this. I'm going to stand by my take regardless of what's happening. And that's when all that, those are the things that have hit for you. You talked about that in the show. Yeah. So I think it's not that you have to keep doing that same exact thing. You have to keep in the mindset that got you to do that in the first place. You got to self-assess. What got me to observe those things? What made me curious where I observed those things, where I asked the question that got me to that truth, right? What gave me the guts to do this? Oh, I felt like I had nothing to lose, trying to make a name for myself. Now I got a name for myself. Now every tweet, I'm kind of worried, how are people gonna react? Well, now, now you're not playing the game the way you did at that time. Yeah. So I would say first and foremost, don't lose what got you to dance. Second is the stuff you talked about, which is you're betting on yourself, which is you're owning your own production, you're owning your IP, you're owning your— own as much of that pipeline as you can from a business perspective, because it's what gets you leverage. It gets you to capture the value you're creating. You create a bunch of value, you got to capture it. You got to look at the supply chain and say, who's capturing all this value? Who— why is Ticketmaster taking this much of my fees? Why is, you know, who— when I go put this special online, what do I really make out of this? First is, what do they make? How do I get their numbers? And how do I understand How to capture value on the distribution side and not just this side. Yeah, I'll try to think about those types of things. And it seems like you're building— like, for example, my mom saw you on The Morning Show. I watched The Morning Show too. Yeah. Oh shit, he's getting into these mainstream areas, building the name, building the face there. And then you're gonna almost like— that's how you go get the new fans and you take them back. You build this funnel. Yeah, at the bottom of the funnel, the people who are going to know your life story, they're going to know what you stand for and all those things. They know me. Just like any product in Silicon value? You create a funnel. Top of funnel is new fans, new eyeballs. How are you going to go get them? You need a strategy. Middle of the funnel, how are you going to get them to get their first taste of you, their first real experience? Get them to their first show, get them to watch the first 20 minutes of something that's your best work. How do I get that? And how do I get them bottom of the funnel, which is how do I create maximum value? Like, oh, a bunch of artists are doing NFTs. What does that look like for comedy? Let me play with these ideas. I'm not going to do all of them. But I'm going to have brainstorming sessions with guys like Sean to say, yeah, what would I do with NFT? What could a comedian do with NFTs? And I would start to think about because that's bottom of the funnel, more like monetization. Yeah, I would think about that funnel. I would say, all right, I am a product and I'm going to build my brand around that product, you know, and it's a long, you know, it's a long series of optimizations. Totally. But that's how I would think about it. That's how I would view my craft, which is like, you know, it's easy to just get into the art world, which is like, I'm trying to build myself and tell jokes, make people laugh. Yes, but ultimately you're a product in your experience. When I showed up at the show yesterday, there was an hour-long line. We got to skip it luckily 'cause you hooked it up with the nice VIP stuff. But everybody, their experience end to end isn't just when you step on the stage.

It's from before the show, the line, the rest.

And I would say our—

The playlist when you sit down.

That's some friction. We talked about the interface where you go buy the tickets, how much friction is there? I will go look at that whole funnel and I would say, all right, I'm trying to grease this funnel. I'm trying to get them to these magic moments with me. The first magic moment when I first made you laugh on that clip on Instagram. Second magic moment, your friend takes you to a show. You have a great time. Third magic moment is the follow-up of that. Fourth is when you buy the merch and actually the merch stands for something. Totally. You know, whatever. Yeah, that's cool.

I've always— I appreciate that because The eye cannot see itself. Sometimes we're so in our— especially as artists, it's what requires us to do deep, meaningful work. But we remove ourselves from, like what you said, the line 4 blocks down the street from the Masonic Theater, how much you had to pay for parking, then what the show experience is like, all that stuff. Yeah, right. Yeah.

I think you're doing great, man. Thanks, man. I don't think you need advice from me, to be honest with you. I think you're doing a great job.

No, man. Hey, this is my 2 cents for the space y'all are working in. I think I think just continuing to try to be a source of light amongst just all this heat that's out there, it's really important, man. There's just a lot of garbage in trying to actually represent ontological truth and reality for what it is. Right. Because you're playing with people's money. People are listening to My First Million for that thing. I just want to like let you know. Yeah, don't forget. It's that, but it's that titillating feature. Yes. It's like when you hear that title, you're like, but I want to—

it's, but it's just like, I want to make a million with your show. I came to laugh. Yeah. I came to laugh at you making fun of our Indian parents and the goofy things that they do. Yeah. But why did I— that's what I, that's what I came for. That's not what I, what I loved. What I loved was the stuff you're saying at the end, the stories about your daughter, the stories about the, the, the jerk parent at the, at the library or the book fair or whatever. Those were where I was like, oh man, I attached. Same thing We have My First Million and the hook is ideas. I'll help you make money and get you, get you to your first million. And what do you do with that when you get there? I know that the people who are really going to love this, because that's going to fade. Like you get that hit. Yeah, you get the hit, you get the hit. What are you going to be here a year from now? You should have already got that million, you know, by, by a couple of years in or whatever. The people are going to stay because, damn, these are just great conversations. I want to hang with these guys. Yeah, that's the only thing we do is recreate a fun conversation where people wish they were. I hope that like there's a third seat in the studio. My goal is that somebody listening to this was like, damn, I feel like I was in that third seat. I was listening to a real ass conversation between two people. Not you talking your book and me talking my book, but like, right, a real conversation by two people. You were curious. And so I answer questions. I ask you a bunch of questions of stuff I was curious about. Yeah. They feel like they got to be a part of a conversation that was a little bit more entertaining than whatever's going on in their world that day. Like maybe their real-life conversations that day weren't as interesting. Sure. My hope is that this one is, that they feel like they're in that third seat. That's like a win for me with this. And so I hope people enjoy this.

I know this is super cool. Appreciate you coming on. No, thanks for having me, man. And thanks for doing it in person because I remember you reached out and you're like, let's do it via Zoom. And I was like, no, we're doing this.

Yeah. Sorry to Sam. Sam couldn't join.

We pulled one out for him. Yeah. Sam, check your DMs, bro. I'm in your DMs though. Okay, cool. Thank you, man.