Most People Are Chasing the Wrong Number

Today we're talking about money with the guy who's been studying money for like the last 10 years. He's the author who sold more books about money than pretty much anyone on earth. It's Morgan Housel. He wrote The Psychology of Money, The Same as Ever, The Art of Spending Money. And we talked to him about Warren Buffett, about the behaviors that drive people to either make money or lose a bunch of money, about spending money, about how much money is enough. It's just a good, honest conversation between a bunch of dudes about money. What more do you want? Morgan, you tweeted out something that broke my brain. In fact, I thought it was like an AI deepfake. It's like when Luka got traded and people were like, you know, this must be fake news. There's no way this is possible. You said that my favorite Buffett stat is that Berkshire Hathaway could lose 99% of its value tomorrow. And still have outperformed the S&P 500 since Buffett took over.

And the, and the truth is, I was understating it. It's actually like 99.6% or something like that, that it could decline.

That is so cr— how is it even possible? Like, you know, we don't do public math here, but that sounds mathematically impossible.

And he only outperformed by 7 points, right? It was like, or like he's done like 20% annual versus—

it's about that. His is about 20. And I think the S&P nominal with dividends is probably like 11 or 12. So maybe it's 8 or 9% outperformance. But he did that outperformance over 60 years. And so the cumulative performance— I'm pretty sure I'm saying this off the top of my head. If I'm getting this a little bit wrong, I'm sorry. But I think the S&P 500 is 35,000% since Buffett took over and Berkshire's return was 5.5 million%. And so even if it's only, quote unquote, only 9% per year over 60 years, it just gets incredible, insane, preposterous. And, you know, Buffett's current net worth is I think $130 billion, but he's given so much away to charity that if you count that in, it's something like $500 billion. That if he hadn't given money away to charity, he'd be worth $500 billion.

He'd be the richest man alive by far.

And he started with $10,000. And I mean, and then turned it into half a trillion. And so that's— but I think the biggest lesson here, and this is the most important for ordinary people, is that like, look, You can't pick stocks like Buffett. You can't analyze businesses like Buffett. He's smarter than you, and he operated in a different era than all of us. So don't try to emulate that. What you can emulate, especially for young people, of course, is the most important and powerful thing that he did is that he was a good investor for 80 years. And it's just the time that he was doing it for that made all the difference in the world. So I pointed this out in my, my first book. If he, if you look at his net worth, 99% of it came after his 60th birthday. 99% of his net worth was accumulated after his 60th birthday. So if he had retired when he was 60, when he was worth a couple hundred million bucks, like, pretty good, you would have never heard of the guy. The whole reason he became so famous and so wealthy is that he started investing when he was 11 and he retired last week when he was 95.

You're very lucky that you get to talk to all these amazing, successful people. And investors are really cool because it's not always about investing that you're interested in. It's about, like you said, behaviors. That's why Sean and I love talking about, to investors, how we had Howard Marks on. It was one of our favorite things ever. And we don't know anything about bonds. With Buffett, is that the attribute other than time in market that— I mean, what other attributes separated him from the hundred, a thousand other people? Because there's definitely hundreds or maybe even thousands of equally probably smart people. What other attributes allowed him to be who he is versus the rest who are pretty good?

I think there's, there's, there's quite a bit. One is, I think what Berkshire did, what Buffett did for 60 years is on one hand so unbelievably simple and on another hand almost impossible to replicate. And it's hard to kind of square those two. But what it required was an unbelievable amount of patience, an unbelievable amount of goodwill in terms of the trust that he had among all other businesses, among his investors, among regulators, who— because everybody around him just left him alone to do his thing because they trusted him. And I think that that's an overlooked part of this. And like any other hedge fund manager, private equity fund manager would not have the trust among their investors, among portfolio companies, anybody to let them do what Buffett did. That was huge.

Sorry, explain that a little more. What's the thing that Buffett did that others might not have had the leash to do?

He had the track record and the narrative that if you sell your business to Berkshire, it is not going to molest it and rip it apart and sell it for parts. It's going to nurture it and let it grow for it, for forever. And I think that was— and if you compare that to Blackstone, KKR, all the other private equity shops, their stated purpose— and I'm not saying this is wrong, but their stated purpose is we're going to maximize IRR and we're going to do whatever is necessary to get there. Whereas Berkshire was, we are intentionally not going to maximize returns. We could easily flip this company next year for more than we paid for it. We could easily lay off half the staff. And squeeze more, more net income out of it. We're not going to do that. We're going to keep this as it is and do it. And because of that, you had businesses that would sell their company to Berkshire for less than they could have gotten from Blackstone or KKR. Because if you were particularly a family business who built your business up over the years and this was your baby, did you want to sell it to Blackstone for an extra $10 million and have them rip it to shreds? Or sell it to Berkshire for a little bit less and know that he was going to nurture it for several generations.

A common thread, I think, of the people that I've grown to admire is that they're stewards. So I've loved reading about George Washington. He was one of the only presidents ever in our 50 years of, you know, 50-plus presidents or so where he had unilateral support from both sides of the aisle, which that still existed back then. And when, when he was— when people interviewed, they said, why do you trust George Washington? And they go, because I know that he is willing to put the union in front of himself. For example, the idea of a two-term president. George Washington created that. That was so crazy when he had been president for two terms and he was like, I'm now done. It's, it's better off that someone else does it. Or the US Constitution, which he helped formulate. It was one of the very first self-amending rulebooks where we acknowledge that the rules might be wrong, but we are going to work together to fix them as we go. And George— and it was modeled in part because of George Washington's attitude of being a steward. And that's really interesting that you're talking about Buffett that way. You're saying he was basically like a steward of goodwill.

I think that's true. And a lot of it was not altruism. It was he knew that he would be able to get the best terms and the best deals if he had that level of trust. And so a lot of it was, was morals of just doing the right thing. But a lot of it was he— this, this was going to accrue to him personally and to Berkshire over time.

Sure.

And I think— but that's where you get the best results when it's like everybody's winning here. The companies that would sell to him were like, this is, this is where we want our baby to go. And Buffett himself was going to get it at better terms and have better flow than anyone else doing it. Also important to point out, this should not take away from any of his success, but it's important to point something like this out. Buffett once pointed out that over the course of his career, he has purchased 500 stocks and he made the vast majority of his returns on 10 of them. And Munger once pointed out that if you look at all of Berkshire's deals over the 50, 60 years that it was doing it, if you remove the top 5, its returns fall to average. And so this is true for almost any endeavor that you look at. The vast majority of Berkshire's returns, and whether it's Berkshire buying whole companies or Buffett as a basically a hedge fund manager back in the day, the huge majority of the success comes from a very small minority of what he did.

I've talked before about the way that I know how to make money, about how to build a money-making skill, about how to leverage your time and energy. And the team at HubSpot actually went through the video where I explained all that and turned it into a free downloadable cheat sheet on my 4 rules of how to make money. Now, this is not, you know, get-rich-quick advice. It's just core principles, foundational principles about building wealth, things that I wish I knew when I was, you know, just getting started. And so if you wanna download it, it's in the description below. It's totally free. You can go get it. Thanks to the folks at HubSpot for doing the research, making this document, and making it available to all you guys. All right, back to this episode. How do you action that power law, the observation that, man, it's all about these power laws, that the— a few things will account for the majority of your success or your returns?

I think there's probably two takeaways from it. One is the idea that if, if you're in a game like that where you don't have a perfect success rate, like if you're a pilot, you should have a perfect success rate every Every flight should land. It should be 100% every time. If you're an investor and it's not like that, you have to be very comfortable with a lot of things not working. And a lot of investors are not. A lot of investors, it will destroy their ego, their soul, or the trust among their investors. If they're, if they're like, hey, we picked 10 stocks and 3 of them went bankrupt and 4 of them did okay, but 1 did really well. Even if on average it works out, a lot of people just can't handle that kind of volatility. So coming to terms with the idea that it's always going to be a tail-driven business, just the psychology of that is important. The other, I think, more important takeaway though, is the humility of how hard it is to emulate this. It would be one thing to learn how to be a pilot and learn the mechanics of an airplane and of aerodynamics and to figure out how you can land the plane every time. And you can teach that skill. It's another to be like, man, if you're a great investor and you're so smart and you know everything, you're right 5.5 times out of 10. And that's if you're good. And that's like, that's, it's a, it's a very humbling statistic just to put people in their place, I think, in a good way of how difficult this business can be.

I asked the same question to Mohnish Pabrai, who is a value investor. He was a kind of Buffett disciple, friends with Charlie Munger type of thing. And I said, what's the takeaway from that? That stat that he, you know, Buffett himself admits it's a dozen decisions out of 500 that really charted, you know, the difference between them being who they were versus being average. And he said, you can't control which— you don't know upfront which of those decisions is going to be the big winning decisions. But he said Buffett was able to circle the wagons, meaning once he bought one of those companies that was the long-term compounder that was just going to keep paying paying dividends out for them. He didn't sell too early. He held them for the long term. He circled the wagons around those core assets. He just never let anything attack those core assets. And Buffett is famous for having called, I think, Peter Lynch once, and he said like, hey, I love this phrase you said. Can I steal it for my annual letter? And Lynch was like, yeah, well, what did I say? I don't even remember. And he goes, you said don't cut your flowers and water your weeds, meaning don't sell your winners to take profits. And then take those and put them into less good investments because that is like, you know, that's going to destroy your ability to get returns. It's so hard to find these winners. When you find them, you got to circle the wagons around them. And I think that's the only like thing you could do after you've made the good decision is let your winners ride for a longer period of time.

Yeah. And this might get back to a little bit what we said earlier of, you know, so I joined the fund in 2016, but I'm not an investor, but I've been able to watch and observe a top-tier venture capital fund operate. And what's very interesting to me is true to all venture capital companies, a small minority of the companies we've invested in account for the vast majority, virtually all of the returns.

Who are the big winners for Collab?

Lyft, Beyond Meat, Impossible Foods, Upstart. Those, those I just named are the vast majority of returns. That's probably right. And what's interesting about it is if you go back to 2016 when I joined, The companies that were going to be our obvious winners weren't, and most of them don't exist anymore. And the companies that did just explode— Upstart and those— were not— were companies that were like, oh, that's, that's a cool company. They're doing some cool things, but never in a million years would we have thought this was going to be it. So not only is it a small minority of, of companies that are your winners, but similar to what Mona said, you, you don't even know which ones those are going to be. It's very difficult to know in real time.

Well, that was the case with your book. I think you said you printed 5,000 copies of The Psychology of Money. You've sold 10 million. I'm not sure how many books have sold 10 million, but like, you know, you are in the freaks amongst the freaks in terms of, in terms of numbers.

And nobody, nobody saw that coming. I didn't see it coming. The publishers didn't see it coming. I've said this a million times before, but every US publisher turned it down. Every single US publisher rejected it. And, but, and I don't, I don't fault them. Like it's, it's, it's a, it's impossible to know what's going to work before it comes out.

About how many nonfiction authors have sold 10 million copies of a book? Could you guys book a table at a restaurant?

Like, I kind of feel like it's got to be like, no, yeah, it's hard. It's hard to know because there's not a lot of it. If you're looking at the last 10 or 15 years, there's pretty good industry data that you can compare across time. But if you go back 100 years, you're dealing with like the data sources are so all over the place.

Okay, well, how many in the last 15 years?

Not many. I don't know, probably 5. Something like that.

No shit. How cool is that, man? 5 people.

You get a free plus one to the dinner.

Well, isn't that interesting? You said you wrote, I think you said 8,000 blog posts. You've written 3 books now that have been huge hits. And yet you are telling me that predicting what will be popular in terms of content, particularly in writing, is impossible? I don't like that as someone who's making content, right?

No, I think I'm being very honest. And of the 4,000 blog posts that I wrote, um, there's like 3 or 4 that stood out that were, you know, an order of magnitude bigger than the others. And all 4 of those, before I hit publish, I was like, should I? I don't know. This is crazy. This is insane. Like, I don't even know if I want to. This is crazy. And there's, there's literally one of them that I, um, I published it, but I hid it from our blog's feed because I was like, I just want to like, I, I want to have a link that I can show some people, but I don't know if I want people to see this yet. And, and so if there is any metric that, you know, like, or have some feel, it's, it's that. It's before you publish it, you're like, this is the craziest shit I've ever said in my life, and I'm, and I'm embarrassed to hit publish. But that, I think almost that's what you need to make it work. And so when we pitch Psychology of Money to all the big publishers, a lot of it wasn't just basic rejection. A lot of it was like, there's no way that that would ever work because it was a weird idea. I was like, look, there's no central thesis to this book. It's just 19 random essays. And like, they kind of, they're all about behavioral finance-ish, but there's no other cohesive theme. That is so antithetical to what a publisher wants. A publisher wants one big idea weaving its way throughout the entire book. And I'm like, no, I don't have that, sorry. And so it wasn't just that they didn't believe me in a writer, the whole structure of the book was the opposite of what they were looking for. But I think you need that in order to stick out. And like, how could it be any other way? That in order to have a non-normal result, you have to have a non-normal idea. That's true for entrepreneurs, it's true for any endeavor that you take, that you have to be an oddball in order to stick out.

Can I give you a couple of, uh, quotes that from your book that I've loved, that I just have in my Kindle highlights, and I just kind of want you to talk about them? I'm just I'm just going to throw them at you.

Yeah, let's do it.

Okay. The first one is a useful one, and then I have a fun one right after that. All right. So the useful one is this. You said something like, there are two ways to use money. Number one, money as a tool to improve the quality of your life. And number two, money as a measuring stick to measure the sort of the, the, your self-worth. That one hit me hard, and I now can't unsee that whenever I see anybody, whether they come on this podcast or just somebody in real life. It's so black and white to me to understand kind of like who's using money in which way.

No, it's, it's tough. And I think I've always, I've always wanted to write things and about problems I have in my own life. So a lot of this was just kind of looking in the mirror and being like, what is my desire for more money? Am I using it as a tool to make my life better and my wife and kids' lives better? Or is it just like, I'm, it's just, it's just a measuring stick of, of how well am I doing in life and where do I sit on the social hierarchy? And if you're, if I was, if I was honest with myself, it was a lot of the latter. And I think we've done a pretty good job spending money on the things that we like and whatnot. But a lot of the desire was just like, what's a scorecard look like? And maybe that's not bad because like, I enjoy that game.

Yeah.

Why is that bad? Because like, for example, you're, you've sold 10 million books. We just use that as a measuring stick and 10 million books correlates exactly to money. Uh, like that to me, that means your ideas are impacting so many people for the better. And it's— and I want you to measure your life by getting to 20 million books because I think your book helps people.

I think you're right there. But here's where it can really go astray. Money is so quantifiable and book sales are so quantifiable that they become like we overestimate their importance. And what I mean by that, if you, if you said like, what's important in life? I want to be a good husband, a good dad, a good friend, a good citizen. I want to be funny. I want to be healthy. All those things are so important and they're very hard to quantify. How do I quantify whether I'm a good dad or not? I don't, I don't know. It's, it's, it's potentially the most important thing to me in the world and there's no score. And so it means everything to me, but it's easy to kind of ignore because this is mushy topic. But what is my net worth? How much did my income go up last year? What are my returns versus the S&P 500? You can measure those down to the millionth of a basis point. And so because they're so easy to track and it's apples to apples, my net worth versus yours, how do I compare my, you know, social citizen score or my dad's score or husband's score from, from me to you? You can't. There's nothing. And but income, we can sit here and compare our net worth all day. And so I think the using it as a scorecard metric is both really good and can be a lot of fun and used for good. And I love that game. I've been playing that game since I was a teenager. And I'll keep playing it the rest of my life. But you have to understand the limitations of it and how much power there is towards it. Just, just because you can quantify it, not because it's necessarily going to give you a better life. I think there are a lot of people who, because it's so easy to quantify, chase it as the ultimate metric to all of their problems, the solution to everything in your life and everything else— your friendships, your relationships, your health— that are more important. Take a backseat just because you can't measure them.

Let me give you an example of this, because I think usually when we talk about like, well, like you got to think about money's not going to make you so happy, or money could be a tool to improve your life or a measuring stick. This is usually like rich guy problems. So it's like you already have money and you keep chasing more money and you're in this— you're facing this existential, you know, what's it— what it is enough?

Right?

You've, you've talked about this word enough. Sam, I know you've talked about like, enough is just twice what I have always, right? Our buddy Andrew Wilkerson wrote a book called Never Enough. And like, I kind of reject the premise and I'll give you an opposite example. So when I was 21 years old, I graduated from college. I graduated from a good school. I went to Duke. And when you go to a good school, everybody you know goes and gets a job in finance or consulting, or they go become a lawyer or a doctor or whatever. But the people who get jobs, they go get high-paying jobs at companies you've heard of. And that sounds really good. And so, you know, they— I would see one friend gets $100K, one friend gets $120K, one guy got $200,000 straight out of college. That is incredible. And I faced that problem you were just talking about, Morgan, which is like, that's a number that I can compare myself on. And I made a decision because we were trying to start a startup, so nobody was going to pay me any money. And the company was a company nobody's ever heard of because we just created it like 3 days ago when we filed the LLC. Okay, so what am I going to do? And what I did was I created— I tried to think about money as a tool to improve my life. Specifically, I said, what is the minimum amount of money I need to make this year so that I can live and have the maximum amount of time to go pursue this project and travel and like do these other things? And so I calculated what I called the freedom number, and I don't remember what it was exactly. I think it was something like $15,000 or something like that. It was like a very low number, like not even it's like less than minimum wage if you just work like in a McDonald's or whatever.

So like, uh, what's that, $1,200 or $1,500 a month?

Yeah, I remember like we were splitting a 2-bedroom apartment, 3 friends, and we slept on air mattresses. We got all our, all our sofas for free off Craigslist. And like, you know, we ate, you know, the minimum stuff at home. Like we didn't go and we, you know, we drank at home and then we would go out. We didn't, uh, you know, buy drinks at the bar. Like little stuff. And I realized I could make that number if I just— I was tutoring like 3 or 4 college kids in statistics, which I wasn't even good at. I had a C in statistics, but they had an F. So, you know, in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. And then I coached a basketball team of middle schoolers at a school for autistic children. And like, that was my job. So I was like, 2 basketball practices a week, tutor 3 kids. And I had all this free time that none of my friends who had like hedge fund jobs or banking jobs in New York had. And it was the first time I got a taste of this concept you're doing, which is like, you need to create your own scoreboard and your own metrics if you want to live life on your own terms. If you just take the metrics life hands you, you're going to live the life that those algorithms want you to have or society wants you to have, and you're not really going to have life on your own terms.

The only thing I ever wanted out of money was independence. I just wanted to live life on my terms and do what I wanted to do. And I've known this about myself for a long time, that I can do good work, but I'm not a good worker. I'm not a good employee. I'm not good at all when a boss says, here's what I want you to do, here's how I want you to do it, and when I want you to do it. I'm a, I'm a shit worker under those terms. But if I'm left to my own devices and somebody says, just, just go do your thing. I can then, then I can really accomplish something. And so I, I just wanted to be fiercely independent in everything that I do. And I think every single person has unbelievable talents if they can be left to their own devices. But a lot of people, once they're under the pressure of other people's goals, other people's ideas, other people's, their financial incentives, you know, are pushed down a notch and it's unavoidable. I'm not saying everybody should go be an entrepreneur, of course, But I think if you can use financial independence to work at the company that you want, to live where you want, to live in an area that gives you a lower commute, to retire when you want, whatever it might be, that to me, I'm, I'm not anti-materialistic at all. I, I, I, I love nice things, but using your money for that is, I think, the highest ROI by tenfold. If you can use it for independence rather than as a material, you you know, social peacock showing other people, look how successful I am, using it more inward to just be like, I just want to wake up every morning and say, I can do whatever I want today. That to me was always the ultimate goal.

We should talk about spending in a second, but Sean, what are the rest of your quotes?

Well, one of them was the story, speaking of like money for using money for status. It was the story about the Koch brothers' wine collection. Uh, can you just tell the story? Sam, have you heard this story? I think it's, I think it's awesome.

There was, I mean, one, one of the Koch brothers was a, is a, unbelievable wine collector and has not like tens of thousands of bottles and the rarest, most amazing wine that's ever existed. And, uh, 2 or 3 bottles that he purchased. I forget the exact price. It's in the book, but an unbelievable amount of money. And they were Thomas Jefferson's wines from his estate that he bottled from his estate on in, in Virginia and whatnot. And, uh, he bought, bought, you know, paid.

I'd break 10 years of sobriety to drink that.

Well, this is where the story gets good. Uh, they, they were, they were fake. They were forged.

Shit.

He hired a private investigator to like audit his entire wine collection and be like, give me a rough estimate of how much of what I'd bought over the years is fake.

And this is a multi-million dollar wine collection, right? Like how much roughly was the wine collection?

I mean, I forget the exact numbers of what they were, but it was a very uncomfortable percentage of what he had purchased for tens of millions of dollars was, was all forgery. And once you, once you dig into it. The wine forgery business is off the charts because you have very rich collectors and no way to, to authenticate what's there.

It's sort of like, uh, the, the, the dog vitamin business. It's like, does it work?

One of the, the tells of what they were doing when they were investigating this was like literally this Thomas Jefferson wine. The label was on there, or there was, or for, for, for, for some of these wines, the label would be stuck on with Elmer's glue that was invented 50 years ago kind of thing.

That's awesome. And so, but, but even when you open the bottle, they're like, turns out Thomas Jefferson didn't even bottle wine.

Even, but even when you open the bottle and drink it, you still, you still can't tell. So it's this ultimate forgery business.

But was he less happy once he found that out?

That's the point. I, I think there, there is a thing of like, you do these things because they're cool and they make you feel good and whatnot. And so if you have a fake Louis Vuitton purse and, uh, it does, does that make you feel like what, what should make you happy is the quality of the purse. The feeling of it, the durability.

All this. No, dude, I so disagree. The story can matter. Like, for example, we were just talking about like, if you buy, if you're like, like I'm into like Japanese denim, it's just a weird hobby. And like there's some weird story about how this, this small company in Japan, they remake the jeans in this crazy stupid way, but it's awesome to a very small group of people like me. If I found out that wasn't true, I, that would bum me out because I wanted to participate in this journey.

I don't disagree with that. Um, but I, I think there, there is an interesting thing where the quality of the topic, like brands gain their brand a lot of, you know, by the quality of the product. There was a period when Louis Vuitton was just a startup bag company and they gained their brand and their prestige based off of quality over time. And there comes to a point where it's like, if a fake has that exact same quality and I totally understand the point about the, the, the history and the story of it. A friend of mine just started a men's skincare company, and I love supporting him, and the product is great kind of thing. So like, there's a story behind it. But I think it's interesting when the, the prestige of it disconnects from the quality of it. To me, I think there's always been this litmus test that I think about, which is if I was on a deserted island with my family and nobody could see how we lived, Nobody could see our house, our cars, our clothes. It was completely invisible to every other eyeball except for our own. How would we choose to live? And I think for some people, the answer might be exactly as I do right now. I'd have the same house, the same car, wear the same clothes, but not, not most people, but definitely not most people. And I think, I think, I think for a lot of people, they are living a life of performance. And that's, that's okay. I think, I think it's, I think, I think I do that to some extent. But you have to perform for the right people. I want to perform for— and that's, that's, that's a, that's a silly way to do it, but I desperately want to impress my wife, kids, parents, uh, 3 or 4 of my friends, because like, I really want their love and attention. Once you start into the realm of, I want to perform for strangers and get their attention, that I think is a completely fruitless game.

Okay, but let's shit test that. Do you think your kids and wife care about the books you've been spending years of your life writing? No, they're not impressed by that. But you're doing it, so there's got to be some other motivation?

No, it's, it's been an interesting thing of like, you know, I, I wrote my first book when I was married and had two kids. And so all of this came after that. Does my wife love me more? No, she loved me enough back then. And so that, you know, do my kids, does my 6-year-old daughter love me more now? No.

So, but is there a part of you trying to impress some other group with the books, or is there just some other motivation altogether? If you're being honest, like, what is that?

Yeah, it's, it's a good question. I'll try to give you an honest answer. I think it's a combination of I genuinely love writing. I think it's a lot of fun. And if I'm looking at it from a financial point of view, I like the game. I like the game of earn as much as I can, invest it as well as I can, compound it for as long as I can, uh, use that money to both live a great life right now and pass it along to my heirs and charity at various points in the future. I love that game. I frickin' love it. And I would be sad if I stopped playing that game. And so I think that's, that's the main motivator.

Sean, you've posed that question to me and you sort of like posed it to me. You're just, you're teasing me where it was almost like a gotcha. Like, see, they don't, they don't care. And I, and I actually reflected on that and I actually realized the answer was they don't care right now.

But who, like your kids?

Yeah, my kids or family members, you know, the people.

I think the context is you were saying like, it's, I really want my kids to see me working hard and like going for something. I think that's kind of how you've said it, right? Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

And that stuck with me.

And the reason it stuck with me is because you and I have talked about our parents on this podcast, and the things that we talk about are the things that they did when they were 18, 19, 30 years old, when we were— before we were born, or when we were small enough that we didn't care then. But we look back and we think, now, how badass was that? How great was that? And so I think that the answer, potentially, Morgan, for you— it is for me— is they don't care today, but how wonderful will that be when your son or daughter is 25 or 30 years old and they're like, look what my dad did. He, he had this concept. No one believed in him. It took off and he kept at it. And how wonderful is that? Therefore, if I want to do it, if I have a particular goal in my life or something, I want to, A, be proud of my name and carry this on. And B, if my dad can do it, I can do it. And he's my model on like perseverance.

Yeah, you're, you're absolutely right in the, in that the way you did that, like kind of abstract, it's like they might not care about the newsletter or about Hampton or about this podcast or about like the specific projects we do. But when I was with Jesse Itzler in that last episode, he goes, he goes, just— he's like, think about this. When you go back and you tell your kids, hey, Daddy took a long trip to go and try to be better, like, try to better himself. Like, he saw someone who might know something, and he was willing to go out there and try to learn it so that he could become better. He's like, what a powerful lesson you could teach your kids. About identifying, maybe there's something out there that I could go learn and then being willing to go get on a plane and go chase it, knowing it might not work out, but it might. And if it does, that's important. And I came back and I actually did tell my kids because they were like, where'd you go? And always when they say, where'd you go? I say, Atlanta. As if they don't even know. They don't know what Atlanta is. Daddy has work. And to them, work is just something that gets in the way of Daddy spending time with them, right? And, you know, like, they are like, they don't really understand, like, what, what the purpose of it. In fact, I give it quite a negative association. I'm not showing them some wonderful example. They just associate it with, uh, it's this thing that we don't get to have daddy because he has to go do some, like, something that's bad because he's not here with us doing the fun things that we like. And so once I reframed that, I started to see them act different. And they would say things in their own day of how they came back from school where they'll, they'll use this language where I'm like, that's the thing I told them 2 weeks ago. That sounded kind of cheesy, but hey, it's just the three of us in the car and like nobody's here to judge me.

Yeah, I, I both completely agree with what both of you just said. And, uh, I, I also think you can be, uh, a, a filthy rich terrible parent or a parent who, uh, you know, makes $45,000 a year and is an unbelievably good parent. And so I think, I think this gets back to the quantification of money just becoming the ultimate metric getting in the way. I wrote about this in my last book. I have a good friend of mine. I've known him for more than 20 years. One of my favorite people in the entire world. He's so funny. He tells such good stories. He's so much fun to hang out with. I can't— I can't wait to see him every time we hang out. And among our friend group, he by far earns the least amount of money by far. And it really bothers him and it makes him feel inferior. And he says this. And I had to tell him one day, I was like, look, if you are who you are, a good husband, a good father, hilarious, so much fun to hang out with, you've probably earned 9.5 out of 10 friend points that I'm willing to give you. If you also happen to be a successful entrepreneur, I might bump you up to like 9.7 out of 10 from 9. But, but don't pretend like it makes that much difference. And I know, I'm sure you know, Many rich entrepreneurs who are the most insufferable, arrogant people that you don't want to spend 5 minutes with. Those people exist too.

We call it being the total man. You know, we'll have people on the podcast who are successful, but we're like, I don't emulate, you know, I don't want to be like them. But then we'll have other people who are successful and also they're a good husband and also they're fit and also they're fun to be around and also they're polite and kind. And we're like, that's the total man. That's what it's—

that's what it's perfect. I think a lot of people like the salt of the earth of just like You're a fireman and you coach the Little League team and you're a great dad, great husband. You fix your cars, you help the community. Like, people love that persona.

Are you just describing your dream hunk? You got a sick jawline, a little salt and pepper hair.

People love that.

Like, you know, from Foo Fighters, there goes my hero. He's ordinary. I think, I think you don't have— I think the idea that you're only exceptional if you are earning more than X dollars per year has done a lot of damage to society, especially among young people.

Can you give us a curated list of the people who are known? So the people who me and Sean can go and copy, so that we can go read, the people who you've read about, who you've talked about, who have a public presence, uh, maybe like a list of 3 or 5 people who have had the biggest impact on you, or who you think we should go learn and follow?

James Clear is, you know, if you want to talk about book sales, he's— I mean, he's in a completely different league than I am for nonfiction. Of the 5 or whatever people who've sold more nonfiction books, he's at the top. And he's one of the nicest, humblest people you can ever meet. One of the most caring people you can ever meet. James and I have only met in person maybe 3 times, so I would be lying if I said he's one of my closest friends. But whenever I have a question about books, and this goes back to before I wrote Psychology of Money, and he was a big dog and I was a nobody, and I would send him a text and he would write me back a novel. Like, he would spend half a day trying to help me figure out the title of my next book kind of thing. So nice, so humble, and so unbelievably successful. Atomic Habits sold over 25 million copies and is still going stronger than ever. Kind of thing. And I think he thinks about— he had this saying one time that I loved. He said, I'm not an author, I'm an entrepreneur, and a book is one of the products that I launched. And he thought about Atomic Habits in that way. And he is an incredible author, of course. But the way that he thought about how to launch it, how to market it, how to structure it, how to, how to write the table of contents in a way that would get your attention. He thought about— he's the most scientific thinker about this that led to an unbelievable amount of success, a generational level of success, and still culminated with the humblest, nicest guy you can possibly imagine.

I had to do the math on that. 25 million books times $25. $625 million of book sales, right?

Yeah. I mean, it's a, it's, it's a, it's a, it's a bonkers level. And he also started, uh, the Atomic Habits app. That exploded, that exploded. There's, there's a whole, there's a whole ecosystem around it. And, and look, there's, there's a lot of people who've, you know, tech entrepreneurs, whatnot, who made a fortune and are very talented and deserve to be praised. And that level of success turned them into insufferable monsters. And I actually have a lot of sympathy for that. I think it's not uncommon, uh, for, for people to do that, particularly if you were snubbed when you were a child, if you were bullied when you were a kid. And then at 25 you're worth a zillion dollars, it's very easy to— for that, that insecurity to come out as being an insufferable prick. I think that— I think that's not uncommon. And most of the time it's a reflection of— it's a— it's a compensation of your lack of self-esteem before you became rich.

Who else is on your list?

Other than James, you, you mentioned him earlier. Um, Mohnish Pabrai is someone who I started following. Mohnish Pabrai in probably 2005. When he was just starting to get a little bit of notoriety in the value investing community. And people instantly started gravitating towards him because he's a very good communicator. And that is very— that's rare in the investing world that somebody can not only have a track record of success but can explain it to anybody. So at the time I was in college and reading his, his books, he published, I think, 3 books back in the day. And those are some of the foundational books that where now I was like, oh, I, I, I, I'm, I'm really starting to understand how this investing thing works. And for that to come from someone who has a great level of success himself, and I, I've, I've met him a few times. He's a, he's also just an incredibly nice, humble person. And so maybe that's the common denominator that I keep bringing up. I, I really, I have so much admiration for people who have an outsized level of success and fame. And it clearly, not only did it not go to their head, if anything, it like, it like dropped their ego. From, from what I understand, obviously never met him. The Matrix, the actor.

Keanu Reeves.

Keanu Reeves, thank you. Is, is one of those people. Absolute, like, tippity-top A-list celebrity. And from what I understand, the nicest, most helpful person you'll ever meet. Shuns the paparazzi kind of thing, just wants to live his own humble life. And so I think that's who I admire the most, are people who can, who can live that kind of life.

Isn't it funny how, you know, we each have a, like, what is it that you admire? Like, obviously your type of the thing you look for is that, that combo that's rare to come, come by, right? Extreme success. And, you know, probably the second layer is like able to communicate or teach that success. And I think as a student of the game, you appreciate that, whether it's James communicating as an author or Manish communicating as an investor. And then the last one, but like, and yet not only did it not ruin them, they became sort of more humble and even more approachable. And that makes it all the more rare, you know, that those things go together. It's so funny that like, that's your type. And then like Sam, like you have like almost like a type like this as well. I'll throw out a couple, maybe you can correct it, but like Sam, I feel like for you—

Tall, dark, and handsome. Oh, oh yeah. Sorry. Uh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Go ahead.

There's like some level of like being a maverick or like a rule breaker in a way. I think doing non-technical things, uh, like things that are like of the real world or like in the middle of America or, you know, just like manly in some way, like it's like some masculine like aspect to it. I feel like I'm missing a third. What would a third one be?

I've done it for a long time.

I've done it for a long time.

Yeah.

I've done it for a very long time.

Yeah.

Stayed on track. And I think all of these are like things that we fear ourselves going wrong. So we really admire the people who did it right.

Like, for example, I'm not a naturally focused and patient person. Therefore, I admire that most.

Right.

Do you have one, Sean?

Yeah.

The traits for me are people who, um, they're having fun while they're doing it. So like when I meet them, they just have this like, they are, they're, they're funny. They're laughing a lot. They have a zest for life. They talk to the waiter and the, the, uh, you know, the driver as much as they'll talk to the other fellow keynote speakers. You know what I mean? Like, I remember when we were at, um, our Hoop Group event, uh, Alexis Ohanian, who is the founder of Reddit, was there, right? And on all the car rides, you know, Alexis would always be chopping it up with the Uber driver, the security guard, the doorman. Like, he paid as much attention and importance to them as the other mega VIP guests that were at this event. And contrasted with— I won't name names, but there were other people at the mega VIPs who literally were like scanning the room for like, who's got a few more billion than me? And like, let me spend— let me get at their table. That's where I want to sit. That's who I want to talk to. And like, if I don't immediately grok how you are like the man, then like, you know, I'm going to eject out of this conversation. You know, I will visibly be disinterested. And like one trait that— so that trait is like very appealing to me where the person is so almost secure in their success that they are not chasing. They don't give off this desperate chasing energy.

Can I ask you a question about spending? Your last book is on spending, and I think it's pretty cool because you're like, there's a ton of books on how to get rich but not on how to spend. And I know that you hate formulas. I mean, I think you've said— I hear you, you write about this and you talk about it. You're like, it's hard to say, like, You know, for example, a common question is like, what number is enough? And you're like, I can't give you that number. So you don't really like formulas, but is there like a filter where if it passes this filter, it's likely a good idea to spend money on this in order to make your life happier?

I don't know if there's any formula to get that. I think if there is something that's almost formulaic to get in this, it's like what's going to make me happy is not what's going to make you happy. And so the idea— I think most people spend money on things that, that society tells them that they should like. That marketing tells them that they should like, which is, which is cars, homes, clothes. And the fancier, the more expensive, the better. That's like the basic model that we're taught. And I think, I think the truth is everybody has very different likes and wants, and price is not always a good indication of how much value that you're going to get out of it. I think the people who have done the best job spending are people who completely tuned out any kind of social influence. What other people thought of their spending and just said, I'm going to go do my own thing. And within that, you're going to find people— if, if, if we're looking at a wealthy person who spends way more on this item than you would think they would and way less on other items than on other items than you would think they would. Ramit Sethi is a perfect example of this. And he's kind of— I think he's— he personifies what I'm talking about, where his thing is he loves clothes. And so he spends a lot on clothes and he dresses incredibly well. And that's so important to him. He's not a car guy. And so I hope I'm getting this right, but I think he drives a Honda Accord and he's just like, I don't, I couldn't care less. I couldn't care less about cars or what anyone thinks about it, but he's going to be dressed to the nines everywhere he goes. That's his thing. Even if you are the exact opposite, it doesn't matter what your thing is. What I love is he's like, that's what makes me happy. And the money that he saved on cars, he can spend on clothes.

He calls it his, uh, his money dials. He goes, he goes, I think, I think carefully about what my money dials are in order to live a rich life. And my money dial is clothing. I love fancy clothes. And I think he said, he goes, up until recently I drove a Honda Accord or Honda Civic, whatever it is. And I wanted to try— I forget what the fancy— Lucid. Is that— is it Lucid? He was like, he tried a Lucid and he's like, it was way too complicated. I hated it. I went and got another Civic or something like that.

It's, it's the opposite of frugality. It's, I love clothes, so I'm going to mercilessly cut everything else in order to have a higher budget for clothes. And, and, and encouraging everyone to do that, to figure out what their thing is. My wife and I figured this out in the last 6 months, at least at this phase in our life with 2 young kids. Travel's not for us. It's just, it's, it's like, we, we, we realized that after the last, like, 4 vacations we took, the best part of the trip was coming home. And after having that feeling for the fourth time, we're like, can we just admit, like, maybe we should do less of this right now? Maybe in 5 years when our kids are a little bit more stable, it'll be different. But I think, but for other people, they're like, they, they're vagabonds. They can't wait to travel. Like, good. Like, figure out what your thing is and what your thing is not. And, and, and, and, and go for it from there. I, when I, when I travel for work a lot, I travel very well and spend a lot on travel that other people would find wasteful. But it, but I love it. And so you have to figure out what your thing is and work from there. And I think most bad financial decisions and most bad financial behavior comes not from making bad decisions. It's when you're trying to follow somebody else's path and be like, well, that worked for them. Maybe I should do that. And so people listening to this might be like, oh, maybe I should try Ramit's thing. Maybe I should go spend a lot of money on clothes and drive a beat-up Honda Civic. Like, no, you like, maybe that's for you, but it's probably not. You have to figure it out what it is. It takes like just a crazy amount of independence and looking in the mirror and trying to figure out what works for you.

Yeah, you've, you've said, personal finance is a lot more about the word personal than about finance. And I thought that was a good way of putting it.

And same for investing. And so what's interesting to me, maybe it's not surprising, but it was interesting, is that at the end of my first book, The Psychology of Money, I— there's a chapter about the psychology of my money. I just kind of laid out everything that I believe there's no numbers in it, but it's like, here's how, here's how I save, here's how I invest, here's how I spend, here's my personal philosophies. And in that I said, look, I dollar cost average into index funds. I had a 3% mortgage that I paid off early, like that, which, which is a terrible financial decision, but I love doing it because it made me feel good. And so I laid it out and there are so many people who wrote— I can't tell you how many emails I got of people saying, I love the book until I got to that chapter and now I can't take you seriously anymore. And, and I think it's interesting to me that even after laying out in the book being like, look, there's no formula, you just have to figure it out for yourself. People looked at the decisions that I made and said, well, they basically said to themselves, I would have done it differently, so therefore you must be wrong. And I think that's the, that's the disconnect that people have.

Well, they're— and they're also like, because I always troll people because I have this premise that I think owning a home is a stupid financial decision. And then I always say, but if it makes you happy, you should do it. And that makes it a great— that makes it wonderful. And people get angry at that. And then paying off your mortgage and whatever else you said, because you're like, it's, it's interesting that I study investing and I like all these investing people when I don't even invest. And like, oddly, not terribly into money, but what you're interested in is the stories and the behaviors of it and that money is everywhere. And if you think of every story that you see, what's the money angle here? And you find really cool stories and there's this huge connection of story and money and our personal behaviors. It's just everywhere. And when you say to someone like a real estate thing or something, it changes their— it makes them question their identity because a lot of people's financial decisions are tied deeply to their— your identity. You also said that if someone has retired, has been saving and saving and saving for 65 years, they're 66, they're retired.

Yeah.

Oftentimes they don't spend. They don't spend because they can't change their identity and that's too hard. And so it's like, it's like it is interesting how And I, and I'm a victim of this as well, of how it's very challenging to change your investing spending habits because that's just a, that's just what's under, underneath the money surface level. It's really like, what is my identity?

It's such an important part of society and there's so much uncertainty to it that I think a lot of times when people are having a fight about money, they're debating about money. It's two investors who are, you know, have differing views. 9 times out of 10, the people are not actually debating. They just have different preferences and they're talking over each other. And what they're saying is like, and if I believe X and you believe Y, a lot of times it's like, I view your opinion as a threat to me because I know there's, I know my views have a lot of uncertainty and they may or may not be right. And if you believe something different, that's like an indication that I might be wrong and that makes me really uncomfortable.

It'd be like me calling you an idiot for preferring vanilla.

That's exactly it. Yes. And people understand with food. I like Mexican food. You like Italian food. Good. Like, great. Like, to each their own. But with money, there is this feeling that there should be one right answer. And if your answer is different than mine, one of us must be wrong. And I think, I think that's why finance can be more contentious than other fields, like, like food, where it's just like, just figure out what works for you and go do it. But we, we don't make that leap with finance.

So based off of like everything that you've read and everything that you've written so far, if you only had the next, let's say, 60 or 120 seconds to kind of summarize it in a couple sentences?

All that matters in finance is it's not about what you know. It's not about how smart you are. It's not about how much information you have. It's just about how you behave. And there's almost no other field where that's the case, where somebody with no education and no experience and no background can massively outperform the person who has the highest education and the highest background. And there's, there's no other examples of fields where a country bumpkin, uh, didn't go to school and doesn't earn that much money, but does have the right investing behavior and can invest and maintain and hold it with patience for 50 years and build a fortune. While at the same time, the Harvard-educated Goldman Sachs MBA blows himself up with a complicated derivative trade. That kind of thing, like, by and large doesn't happen in other fields. And, and I think so finance is a very unique field where it is. It's not that behavior is important. I think the behavior part is everything. And behavior is very difficult to teach. It's hard to teach even to very smart people because you can't distill it down to a formula that you can memorize. It's unique, it's individualistic. And so I think maybe the message, the takeaway is you have to spend a lot of time thinking about the soft skills of patience, ego, greed, fear. And you have to spend a lot of time thinking about how those topics apply to you individually, to you and your family, and figuring out your own goals, your own benchmarks, even if they're different from the people that are around you.

We appreciate you so much.

Thanks for coming on, man.

Thanks, guys. This is fun.

That's it. That's the pod.