Shaan Challenges Sam to Ignore His Limits, Michael Rubin is the Billy of the Week, and More

People DM us a lot of interesting ideas. My reply to all of them, they go, what do you think about this? I always reply with two things. I always say it's an amazing idea. And then I say, when are you launching?

I feel like I could rule the world. I know I could be what I want to.

I put my all in it like no days off.

On the road, let's travel, never look back. All right, let's start the episode here.

All right. What I've got. Actually, two interesting things to tell you. The first, this company reached out. It's a famous publication that you know of, and I don't want to say it out loud yet, but they want us to go to Baja, Mexico to ride motorcycles and film a series on like weekend adventures. Are you interested in that?

Uh, what for? Like, they, uh, what's, what's the catch? You want me to come out here and surf and ride motorcycles? What's in it for you?

They just had Uh, I guess I could talk about it. I haven't asked if I could talk about it. It's just like, it's a— without giving too much weight, they have a, uh, just a web series that goes in like on TV. It gets for web and TV. They have a TV channel and they have this whole series where they— it's all about like 9-to-5 workers, like normal yuppie jobs, and you have adventures Friday to Sunday. So like, what all can you do on a weekend?

Uh, okay. All right. Uh, that seems super up your alley and kind of up my alley too, but you know Um, that's, that's their suggestion.

Do you have a better idea on like a weekend adventure? It's an adventure publication.

Yeah, I don't do motorcycles. That's my only thing. I don't do motorcycles. And after Kobe, I also don't do helicopters. But, uh, I love surfing. Surfing is a cool thing. I suck at it, but it's fun. So I would do that.

Well, if you come up with a better idea, then, then pitch it. Um, but they like— it's all paid for and everything.

Oh, okay, great. Yeah, let's do that. Why not? Ah, look at your fitness influencer life is already coming in handy.

So what I wanted to talk about was you're getting really fit too. And I think it's pretty inspiring.

Are you enjoying this? Coming from an influencer like you in the fitness world, that means a lot to me.

Hardly. But do you think it's— has your body— or I know your body has changed. Has your brain changed, do you think? And your attitude?

Of course. That changes first, right?

Yeah.

The attitude changes first. The brain changes first. The body changes slowly over time. But yeah, for sure. But I, um, like, okay, if people— if I took off my shirt, you know, nobody's gonna be super impressed with me just yet, but I'm pretty impressed with me. And that's kind of my own opinion. I hold a higher regard than anyone else's. So yeah, I basically— I went from like, kind of like, I don't know, was I— would you be like, he's fat? Would fat— was I fat? I might have been fat. I didn't think of myself like a fat guy. Then I'd see a photo and I'd be like, what the hell, I look fat here. Then I'm like, every photo I look fat, maybe I'm just fat. That's kind of what I really reached the conclusion of at that time.

You were getting overweight. I think that, like, I think that, you know, there's like a, like a, like a definition of obese, like, you know, it's a body fat percentage. And, and I guess if we use obese and fat, yeah, I would say you're overweight, but I don't think you're overweight now.

Yeah, so, and, and so now I've been training hard for like a year. I started off doing 2 days a week, 3 days a week, and I just cranked it up to 5 days a week now with the trainer. Um, it was always supposed to be 5 days a week, but the, the days I was supposed to be doing on my own, I was, you know, really half-assing it or no-assing it. So I would say on average I was doing like 3 or 4 days a week before, and now I'm doing 5 or 6 days a week. Pretty intense. And I got to say, I don't know why you're bringing it up, so I don't know where you're going with this, but it's amazing. And I could talk about it all day because it's like the best thing I've done all year. So if you're listening to this and whatever investment you're making right now in your health, I guarantee you that if you upped that investment, you would only thank yourself. And that's kind of where I'm coming from here is like, yeah, I'm super happy with making this shift and it's totally great.

I have this— the reason I was bringing this up is I have this friend who is incredibly wealthy. Like, I would have to imagine like $30 million wealthy. And he, he was like, I want to get in shape. What routine are you using? And I'm like, that's a bad question. Who cares about the routine? If I was you, I would just hire a coach. It'll be like $400 a month. And he was like, wow, that's expensive. And I'm like, dude, you've got one body and one life. Like, I— for me, my fear is when I see someone who's my age or 40, 50, 60 and their body hurts so they can't walk and they can't— they like struggle to sit down on the floor or something like that. I'm like, that's hell, right? Like, you're just— you're in this— you're in this shitty home that's falling apart and you can't get out. And I was like, what? You know, you just bought this fancy house. Why not also buy a fancy body? And that's like, look good naked, but, but like, feel good. And so I was just thinking about it and I think we talk about investing and I'm like, I think that's got to be the best investment.

For sure. We have a mutual friend. I can't say the name on here because what they said is funny, but I'll share what they said. So they're wealthy. They're probably like, I think they have like $100 million in the bank. And they said this thing, they're always doing kind of like fitnessy stuff. They're not like, you wouldn't look at them and say, oh yeah, this person's clearly like they're not just like super jacked. That's not that, but they live a very healthy lifestyle and whatever, wherever they go, like in their day, their workout is like a key part of their day and they don't sacrifice it. They don't get, they don't get too busy for it. And so I asked him about that and I said, you know, man, it seems like you're really taking this seriously. He goes, yeah, you know, the way I look at it is if you're rich, you have no excuse to be fat. I go, what? He goes, look, if you don't have the money and you're all, you're, you're just, you're trying to support your family, you got to work 2 jobs, you got to shop at certain stores, you know, McDonald's, you know, you got to eat what you can afford sometimes. Okay, fine. Like, still, they're not great, and you know, I want you to not be in that situation, but like, I definitely understand. He goes, if you're rich and you're fat, that's on you, bro. And, uh, and that's how I feel now, is like, when he said it, I was like, you know, that's actually so true, which is if you had all the resources but you didn't make the investment that matters, uh, that's sort of silly, right? And so, uh, that kind of That kind of was one little seed that got planted in my head. I'll tell you something else that's been funny. My trainer recently, um, so you're at— you're absolutely right what you said, which is it's not the workout routine, it's not the— it's not what you do, it's not the workout program, right? It's not like somebody has some secret formula.

For most people, it really doesn't matter. Like, for most people, even if you just walked 15,000 steps a day and you ate, uh, only maybe 2,300 calories, you're gonna like look pretty good, and you're gonna feel probably pretty good.

If you're not working out 5 days a week, that's your problem. It has nothing to do with the routine. It doesn't matter what you did in the routine. Like, just start with doing any workout and then make it better over time. And like, yeah, when you're— when you're Sam status, then the actual routine does matter because, you know, you're, you're already at the kind of 99th percentile. You're just trying to optimize at the end and try to get certain details to pop. So yeah, then your routine matters. But for most people, it doesn't matter. But I'll tell you something my trainer told me that was counterintuitive. He goes, um, we were talking about like, my body has really changed. My arms have changed, my chest has changed, but my stomach still looks like the stomach of a guy who's not super in shape. Like, I don't have like a six-pack.

That's not even— bro.

And so, so that's what I said. I was telling him, I was like, oh yeah, but that's all diet, right? And he goes, he goes, you know, everybody says that. He goes, um, they say you can't out-train your diet, all the stuff. He goes, and I get what they mean. He goes, but I'll tell you what, Intensity over diet all day. And I go, what? He goes, intensity over diet. Watch. He goes, don't even touch your diet right now. Don't worry about your diet. Don't feel guilty when you eat something. Don't like count every calorie. Don't go weigh out your chicken breast. Like, don't do any of that shit. All I want you to do is commit to cranking up the intensity when we're here in this part of the gym. So he's like, if you're like, let's say 0 to 10, what's the intensity of your workout today? Like on average? I say, oh, you know, it's like an 8. He's like, great. All we're gonna do is we're gonna take that to a 9. We're just gonna make every workout at least a 9 on the intensity level. And some days we're gonna be hitting 9.5, and some days we're gonna even hit a 10. But right now I just want you to focus on a 9. And he goes, watch what happens. And he's been so right, which is that it was really hard to just change my diet, but it was much easier to just crank up the intensity in working out. And it's not that the intensity will all of a sudden shed my fat. It's that when I put the intensity in here, diet becomes a much easier decision because I really like laid it all out during the workout part. And so the desire to like throw it all away for, you know, this like pleasure, these chips or this whatever, like it's just not there. And now I am— at first I thought he's full of shit. I did not believe him. But now that, now that I'm actually trying it, I just said, hey, let me, let me follow what you say. You're my coach. I understand what he's saying. And this is now applied to many other things in my life. So now even in business, we were— I was talking to Ben about one of our business plans and it's like, oh, should we do this or this or this? It was all about the plan, the how, the, you know, what is the strategy? And I basically said, fuck the strategy. Let's just take our intensity up. He's like, what? I said, whatever strategy we're doing, let's just agree that like right now we're probably executing any of our strategies at a 7 or 8. Let's just execute any of these bullshit strategies at a 9.5. Let's just see what happens. And this is just working in all areas of my life now, because now when you put a 9, 9 or 9.5 intensity, you kind of like want to figure out the right plan, right? It's like, if I'm going to put in this intensity, it better be on the right thing. And your brain will solve the, the which path should I choose problem in a different way because of the intensity. I don't know if that makes sense, but it's a little—

No, it does.

Mind hack.

This weekend I went to F1, Formula 1 racing in Austin. It was like the hot thing to do. And I went with this guy. Have you heard of, um, what's it called? Jungle Scout. You know Jungle Scout?

Yeah. Yeah. We've talked about it. It's the tool that basically if you go on Amazon and you want to see what products are selling, how much, how much of this Instapot gets sold every week. Jungle Scout's this little extension you can click on. It'll tell you what, how much sales the products on Amazon have. It's kind of expensive, but it's a cool product.

So it's a big business. Like, you know, if you just Google it, like you'd have to— if you could put the pieces together that they're not far from $100 million in recurring revenue. Big business.

Yeah.

And started as a Google Chrome plugin, which is interesting. This guy, Greg, he's Neville's good buddy, my buddy's Neville. So that's how I got brought into this thing. I went with him and he's very nice, very kind, easy to talk to, but incredibly intense. And here's just a tiny example of what, when I see this and I'm like, I, I like, I always see like whenever I'm around certain people, I always notice this, uh, when, when, when intense people do things like this. So for example, the race had just ended. Uh, some people, I don't know how they got onto it, but they got onto the track. I guess they just went on and took photos and he's like, let's go. And he just starts walking over. And I'm like, well, there's no like gate. And like, imagine like huge stands and then you walk down the stands and there's like a fence that's quite tall. And he goes, he's like, well, let's go. I'm like, there's no, there's no gate. And he goes, no, no, no, we're going to jump the fence. Everyone was staring at us. He just walks up without hesitation, puts his hands up there, climbs up on this fence and just hops. He goes, come on, let's go. And I would— I'm, I'm, I don't like confrontation that much. I don't like doing a lot of things that like people stare at me. And I was like, what? You just did it. Like, you didn't even think twice. And I've been with people who are like really successful entrepreneurs and they'll be like a line. And of course, this is like jackass. This is like a jackass move. And they're like, no, no, no, we're not waiting in line. We're just going to— we're going to walk in and we're just going to— we're going to do this. And that's like an example of that intensity. Have you ever noticed, like, you probably have friends that do like—

dude, you're like this. You're an intense dude. I've noticed this from you. And the line example is perfect. When we were going to do our live show, remember, in Miami, and the airport was just packed. I don't know why, it was like 6 in the morning. The airport was so packed. We got there early and we were still gonna miss our flight. Like, the security line was like 2 miles long, and we waited, we waited, we waited, and then you were like— you just like— some switch flipped inside you that was just like, okay, we have all the reasons to like do— do like just to miss this flight, basically. It's like, all right, we got here early. Look, it's just a long line. There's nothing we could do. Um, you know, the airport is packed. COVID just— it's all That's circumstance. And then I literally— we didn't even— you didn't even say anything. You were just like, okay, I'm gonna go. And then you just left the line. So you gave up your spot, which was like a risk because we had waited for like an hour and a half.

You gave up your spot into the— the pre—

you go to TSA PreCheck, you're not TSA PreCheck, and you just hand the guy your ticket and he's like, bro, there's no PreCheck on this. And you're like, oh yeah, my, uh, my wife PreCheck. It was— she's—

we—

it didn't print. Or you're like, you're like, I'm PreCheck. He's like looking at—

he's like, there's no PreCheck.

You're like I'm prechecked. It just didn't print right. And then he's like, your will just dominated his and then you just got through the line.

And I'm like, come on, Sean.

I'm still standing there. I'm like, shit, if I go and say the exact same thing, that may work. And so I was like, I need to crank my intensity up. So I went and I bought CLEAR at that moment. I just, I went and spent $200 buying CLEAR. And then I like CLEAR, well, they'll escort you to the front of the line and like take you through TSA. And then it was like, you called me and you're like, dude, you got to sprint because you were at the gate. You were like, you gotta sprint. Yeah. So I didn't even have my shoes on cuz of the security line or whatever. So I'm holding my shoes, didn't even have time to put 'em back on. I'm in my socks and I sprinted to the gate like I've never sprinted before. And I hate running, so I hate, I hate ran my way all the way there.

Yeah.

But it was your contagious intensity. Another example, we wanted to build our podcast studio and, uh, I was like, we had kind of been talking about it and it got to that dangerous point that happens where you have an idea, a thing you wanna do, and then you've talked about it. but you're not closing. You're just somewhere in the middle. And this is where dreams go to die. And I think most people, it would just sort of like, it would either fade and you just don't do it or you kind of half-ass it. And I remember like in a 24-hour period, you just blew up my phone. You were like DMing me like pictures of every other podcaster. You're like, how about this, this, this? Just tell me of these 3, which one do you want? I like number 2. Number 2? And I'm like, yeah, sure. Number 2. You're like, great. Number 2. Okay. I found the chair on Amazon. Actually, let's drive to these 3 places and like, let's go pick it up today. What time are you free? Are you free in 10 minutes? I'll be at your house. And you came, you picked me up and we drove to IKEA. Then we drove to another furniture spot. Then we drove to this bootleg spot in Oakland. And then while we're at the bootleg spot in Oakland, it was like not really happening. And then we went to another spot and then literally the saleslady recognized your intensity. She came up to us. It was a big furniture store. She comes up, she goes, you guys look like you're, you guys look like you're ready to buy. I don't know what she said. She said something like, you guys look like you know what you want. And you were like, yes, I'm looking for this red chair because I have a show and I want it to pop in the thumbnail and it's gotta look like this. And she like ran into the back and tried to find us one. And then you like got the whole thing done. And somebody, meanwhile, somebody was painting the whole wall. You were like, we need to paint the wall. So you like hired some guy to go paint the wall over the weekend. And by Monday, that was a Friday. By Monday, the studio was done. And I share this because That's a level of intensity that you— that I know you have, that I've observed in all of my successful friends. They have this, this trait— or not all, I shouldn't say. Some people are doing style, but very common that people who are success have this level of intensity when they do something, massive action. And, um, it is contagious. It's contagious to the people around you. And like the lady in the store, um, there's a— there's this principle that's kind of like this. So I'm reading this book. Sorry to go on a tangent here, but I'm reading this book.

Which book? You—

every— everybody's heard of it. You've heard of it. Think and Grow Rich by Napoleon Hill. Have you read that? Have you actually read the book?

Years ago, but it's one of those books that you should reread every 5 years, probably. I should probably read it. It's pretty amazing.

I've had the book for like 10 years. I never even opened it because I was kind of like, I think I get the idea. Um, and so I actually started reading it 2 nights ago, and he tells a story of this guy who wanted to work with Thomas Edison. He's like, this guy had a clear idea. He's like, I want to work with Thomas Edison. He goes to notice 2 things. He said he knew exactly what he wanted, not just like, I want a job in a lab. It's like, no, I want to work with Thomas Edison. This guy is an amazing inventor. He goes, the second thing is I don't want to work for him. I want to work with him as a business partner. And so he's like, you know, problem is I have no qualifications and I'm literally not even in the same city and I've never met the guy. I have no access to him. I don't know anyone who knows him. But he didn't let any of those limitations, those limitations were sort of irrelevant to the guy. So sure enough, he buys a train ticket. He goes to where Thomas Edison is. Barges through the door and he says, you know, Mr. Edison, I'm here to work with you. Like, I think you're great. And I think, you know, we'll do great work together. I'm here to work with you. And Edison's like, what the fuck? Like, you know, we're not even hiring. But like, and he said something— Edison has a quote in the book, which is like, even though this man had no qualifications and I had never seen this person, he's a complete stranger, there was something about the intensity of his presence that told me this person has their mind set on something and they're gonna make it happen. And that sort of reminded me of this like common thing that's I've, I've seen in a lot of people and in myself in situations, which is once you get to that level of absolute certainty and you carry yourself, people will literally just start to respond to you differently. Cuz they just see this person is like on a mission. They are a man on a mission. And like, I mean, I either need to get outta the way or I need to get behind them and help them do this. Um, and that has like served me. I have one crazy story that's served me well, but is that ever ever happened to you, or have you ever seen that in yourself or others?

Yeah, I call it being an animal. And like Paul Graham, or he's the one who said, he goes, basically, he's like, a lot of people talk about who you should hire in your early stage startups. He goes, basically, the one word you want to use to describe them is, are they an animal? Right? And do they just get shit done? And I remember, like, I remember talking to my friend Jake, who went and worked at this company called Teespring, which grew very, very quickly. And I was like, what's it like to work for Walker, the guy who runs it? And he goes, He's an animal. Like, for example, we wanted to do this partnership and we had been working for weeks and weeks on getting in touch with these folks, and he just Googled like their customer service number. And then just right there in the meeting, he goes, guys, watch this. And he just calls them and goes, hey, can I talk to this one person? Uh, hey, this is Walker. I want to make this happen. What do we got to do? And he like— and that's an— that's a very easy example.

Uh, I have almost the same story. When I was in college, I had, um, I've talked a little bit about this before, but my very first business idea was to create the Chipotle for sushi. So the same kind of fast casual model, but for sushi. You'd done it for sandwiches, for burritos, for Chinese food, but nobody had ever done it for sushi. So that was the idea. Problem was, I know nothing about sushi. I know nothing about the food industry. I had in fact only tried sushi for the first time like a week before that. And that's why I even had this idea. I was like, oh, sushi's fucking amazing. How do I do more sushi in my life? And, um, and so one day I skipped class and me and my buddy Trevor, we were sitting around at our apartment and I was like, you know, and Trevor loves to watch food shows like Chopped, Iron Chef. He just loved watching this food shit. I never understood it because again, I'm not a foodie. I was like, why do you want to watch other people eat food? That seems like crazy to me. Um, but you know, I got hooked because the shows are great, obviously. And we're watching a throwdown with Bobby Flay, and there's this sushi chef that comes on, and he's like, he know— obviously he knows his shit about sushi, otherwise he wouldn't be on the Food Network. He says his qualifications were like, you know, I'm in LA, I got my restaurant, but I also run the largest sushi academy for training chef. So we were like, oh, this guy runs the largest chef training thing for sushi chefs. And he had like this swag to him. But we had interviewed 3 chefs locally, and they were all like, you know, think about like a traditional Japanese sushi chef, like zero kind of outward personality, very traditional, conservative. And they just looked at us like, you are like kind of like besmirching the name of sushi. Like, how dare you even suggest this? Fast sushi? No, no, thank you. And so we, I saw this guy and he had, he had a big personality, which is why he was on TV. And I said, we need a guy like this. I go, and he's like, and Trevor's like, yeah, where are we gonna find him? I go, he's right in front of us. We need this guy. And he's like, okay. Um, and so he's quiet for a second and Trevor just Googles his number. He's like, turns his laptop at me. He goes, here's his number. And that's like, you know, challenge accepted. Like if your friend shows you that, it's like, or, you know, it's like, hey, that girl over there, it's a dare. "You got to go now. Now you got to go approach that girl." So I pick up the phone and I call, and I don't know why I said this. I didn't have this planned, but it's exactly what you just said the guy Walker said. Somebody picks up the phone, and I'm so used to getting the runaround that I didn't expect it to be him. So I go, "I need to talk to Phillip Yee. How do I make that happen?" And then he goes—

So I didn't say, "May I please speak to the team member?" Which by the way, that's the right way to ask, which is, "How do I make this happen?" Exactly. Because there's always an answer.

It just came out, and it came out because I I had already worked myself into a state of intensity and I was kind of nervous. And so like, I was just in this heightened state. And so that's just what came out. And he goes, Philip, talk to me. And I hadn't planned what the fuck I would say after that. And I was like, oh, I said, Philip, you've never met me, but I'd like to start a business with you. And I know that sounds crazy, but if you give me 10 minutes to hear me out, hear out my plans, I think you'll find it really interesting. It might be something that will extend what you're doing in LA. It seems like you have a great thing going. I think this will really take that and really blow it And he goes, he goes, what's the plan? How old am I at this time? Yeah, I was a senior in college, so 20, 21.

Wow.

And he goes, what's the plan? And I didn't have a plan. So I go, I go, you know what? It's going to be easier for me to email this to you. What's your email address? And I bought myself 2 days to like create a plan and send it to him. And later on, you know, so he, a bunch of stuff happens. He flies out to meet us. Uh, we're going to school in North Carolina. He flies to our college dorm basically and meets us. We fly to his— I live on his couch in LA. He's good. He like vets us, but he basically puts us through the grinder to see are we the type of people he wants to work with.

Which I don't know how the story's gonna end, but at that point, to me, that's a success already.

It's a success already. We turned this joke of an idea into like, well, it might be a funny idea to you when I say I'm starting a sushi restaurant, but, you know, this Food Network chef's on board, or he's like kind of on board. He's talking to me at least. He's flying out here next week, so we got to prepare for that. I'm not going to class right now. I gotta prepare for my chef. And so later, months later, when we finally struck a deal with him, we closed the deal. And he's like, dude, you don't know how many people— he's like, because celebrities eat at my restaurant. He's like, you don't know how many rich celebrities come to me. They say, oh, this restaurant's so small. You don't even have a liquor license. You need to expand. I'll put up the money. You need to expand. He goes, and I never did business with any of them. And here I am with 3 dipshits in college. And I decided to go into business with you. And everyone thinks I'm crazy. But you know why? And I go, why? He goes, He goes, you remember what you first said to me? And I was like, no. And he goes, he goes, you called and you said, I need to talk to Philippe. How do I make that happen? And he goes that— he's like, there was something in the way you said it that just told me this guy's going to do something. This guy's going to make something happen. And he goes, he goes, if you literally had not said that phrase, I don't think I would have even ever heard you out because this is just another one of these people who say, I want to start a restaurant with you. I'd love to partner with you, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, wow, I didn't realize these things make that big of a difference. And I don't think it's the words. I think it's the intensity that will bring you to do the right thing and say the right thing at the right time.

That's great. I like that. How, how did it end?

We partner with him, we go live on his couch, we train in his restaurant in LA. And, uh, so, you know, first, first day I go there, he shows me, um, the process for making sushi. So I don't know if, have you ever seen how a sushi chef rolls a roll of sushi?

Just like the— yeah, I guess so. Like, they use that like a piece of wood.

Yeah, a little bamboo. There's a bamboo roller, basically. But before you do any of that, right, so the seaweed lays down and you got to put the rice on it. Now, the rice is sticky rice. Uh, if you've ever had Asian food, sticky rice. So how do you use your hands? How do you grab the sticky rice? How do you— so there's a little problem, right? I didn't even realize there's a problem, right? I'm sitting there watching him for an hour. So first he says, just shadow me, sit here and watch me. I said, okay, I'm watching him. And he's just making sushi and I'm kind of getting it, but I don't even know what I'm looking for, right? Like any amateur, when you look at something, you don't even know what you're looking for. You don't know what the details are that matter until you try something. And this is why he was a genius teacher. One hour in, he goes, the, the next customer walked in. I'll tell you who it was in a second. He go, he goes, all right, Sean, you're up. And he moves outta the way and I get to go stand in that spot wearing my stupid chef coat. And I don't know anything about anything. I've just been watching this guy. I thought it would be a long time because traditionally in sushi, If you've ever watched like, what's that? Jiro Dreams of Sushi.

Jiro, yeah. It's like a 5-decade sushi role, right?

The tradition is like you spend 5 years just mopping the floor. You then, you get to touch the veggies, then you get to touch the fish. And the last thing you ever touch is the rice. 'Cause actually sushi means vinegared rice. It's sushi is really about the rice, not about the fish. So, so I didn't expect to be doing it. And so 1 hour in, he throws me in the fire. And not only does he throw me in the fire, he throws me in the fire with this guy who sits down and I look up and it's Darryl from The Office. If you've ever watched The Office, it's Darryl. And Darryl's a regular there, so he kind of knew like—

wait, wait, wait, Darryl from The Office is—

he's the warehouse guy. He's the black warehouse guy.

Oh, black dude, uh, Ben Robinson, I think his name is.

Uh, I don't know if that's his name. Maybe that's his name. It's just something like that.

But Darryl, I know Darryl, of course.

So, so it's Darryl. So I'm like, oh fuck, I gotta make sushi. And I make it for Darryl. And sushi It's like the guy's staring at you. You're 2 feet away from each other, right? Like, there's no hiding in the back of the kitchen to make it. I'm making it in this guy's face. And, uh, and so he—

Darryl Philbin, sorry.

And so I— so I first, I just freeze. I'm just standing there and I'm looking down at the fucking bamboo. I have seaweed, bamboo, and rice. And I'm like, okay, how did he do this? And then I'm freezing. And then he walks away. I'm like, shit, okay, I gotta figure this out before he comes back. He comes back up to me. He hands me a shot of sake and he goes, "Drink the fucking shot and roll the fucking roll, Sean." And I— so I take a shot and then I'm like, "Okay." I grab the rice 'cause I'm like, "I gotta spread the rice on the seaweed." I grab the rice and immediately I know I've done something wrong because the rice is so fucking sticky in my hand that as I try to rub it onto the seaweed to place it on the seaweed, it's like not gonna leave my hand. I just rip the seaweed and my hand is like a rice glove. And he goes, he's laughing, and he said, he goes, you know, every time before I roll the roll, I dip my hand in this water and I clap. He goes, that clap is not for show. That clap is you wet your hand, then you clap, and that removes all the moisture. That like kind of like splashes the moisture off your hand. So you just, just enough so that when you touch the rice, it's not going to stick to your hand. And so I was like, oh shit. And then he kind of showed me how to do the first one or whatever. And so that was kind of like my first experience was feeding him. And like that same day, badass. If you ever watched Lost, the guy Hugo from Lost, Uh, came in and he ordered food or whatever. It's crazy. Anyway, so that's, that's part of how that story ended.

Have you heard of, um, I want to talk about intensity and, and Billy of the Week because I came across this guy that is incredibly fascinating and one of the most intense people I've ever read about. Have you ever heard of Michael Rubin?

Michael Rubin, is that the Fanatics guy?

Yes. So he's interesting because he's a young guy. He's probably not yet 50, but if he is 50, he's early 50s. And his name's Michael Rubin. He's been a baller for years and years and years. And so this guy is incredibly fascinating, but not a lot of people know who he is. I think he's worth like $10 billion. Like, you know, he's worth a ton of money, you know, like Jack Dorsey money. And yet he's like pretty under-talked-about. And so this guy, listen to his story. So I was reading, reading about him. So basically he's in the news now, but I'm going to explain his background. So at the age of 12, he started a ski tuning shop in his, in his parents' basement. Basement. And then 2 years later, at 14, he got $2,500 in bar mitzvah gifts and he leased a, an office or a shop near his parents' house. And by age 16, he was already in $120,000 in debt and had to settle with creditors. And his dad had to pay him, give him bail amount for $37,000. And he was basically said like, I'll bail you out, but you have to go to college and you got to stop this nonsense. So he goes to college. But then after a couple of semesters, he drops out and he already has 5 new ski shops and it kind of kicks ass and he eventually sells it. And then at the age of 21, he starts this business called KPR Sports. It's an equipment closeout company. By age 21, it has $1 million in sales. 2 years later, age 23, $50 million in sales. At the age of 20— at 23, 1995, he purchased it, purchased 40% of the women's shoe company Reebok. Have you heard of Reebok? It was around in like the '90s and early 2000s. And then eventually he started this company called GSI Commerce. He kind of pivoted into this thing where it was called GSI Commerce, and they would buy brands and they would kind of be the logistics and backend that make these brands amazing. And he sold that at age like 28 for $2.4 billion, netting him $150 million personally. Then a few years later, he bought the business back and he formed 3 different companies. The first was ShopRunner. Have you heard of ShopRunner?

No.

ShopRunner basically was kind of like Amazon Prime, but for all non-Amazon stores. So you could spend $100 and get free shipping on loads of different stores. He started Rue La La, which you probably wouldn't have heard of, but I bet your wife has. And then he has— and then he started Fanatics. He sold ShopRunner recently for $228 million. Fanatics ends up becoming this massive business. And so basically, if you buy like a Rams jersey, it's made by Fanatics and they basically work with the NFL.

They're like the official merchandiser basically of like all major sports.

But here's where shit gets really, really wild. So Fanatics turns it— now at this point, I believe it's 3 different large businesses. So there's the main Fanatics business, which is they basically have licenses with the NFL, NBA, MLB. They make shirts and stuff like that and just normal merchandise. I think— I believe if it's not publicly traded, it's nearly publicly traded and worth $18 billion. The second thing that he did was he spun out this trading card division. Have you seen that? They're just in the news because this—

what is it? What is it?

So he raised— it's called Fanatics Trading Cards. And so basically he raised $350 million at a $10.4 billion valuation. And so basically there's companies like Topps. Everyone knows Topps. They make cards. I think they also make a bunch of other stuff like gum and random things. But Topps plus the other 3 big dogs in the space, I forget what they are. But if you're listening in on baseball cards, Panini is huge. So collectively those make like $2 billion a year in EBITDA. Like, so it's a fairly big business. And so you're like, $10 billion trading card company?

Right.

It is pretty frothy, but like, it, it could, you know, can it be a billion dollar a year in profit business? Totally. And so he raised money for that. And then he has this second thing called Candy Digital, which is making NFTs for sports. And they just raised $100 million at $1.5 billion valuation. And so he spun all all of these off. And now he's also the owner of the 76ers and the New Jersey Devils, the sports team. Pretty freaking wild. And if you follow him on Instagram, which I just started following him, he's homies with Meek Mill, uh, and he like helped get him out of prison. And he spends a lot of his time— Michael Rubin spends a lot of his time with prison reform. Incredibly prolific, very, very, very confident, very fast-moving, very intense, incredibly interesting guy. Seems like a good guy.

And the door is open for, for him to come on the pod. This guy, this guy's cool. I've seen a lot of his interviews and, uh, and I like him a lot. And I think what he did with Fnatic is like— I always view doing things in sports, it's like if you want to do sports and music, it's like actually so hard to win because it's like, oh yeah, I'm passionate about sports, great, you and, you know, 2.2 billion other people. And so it's really, really hard to do what I'll call obvious ideas in sports, like like, yeah, selling the merch, selling jerseys, selling shirts. So for him to build such a large business in what would be such a competitive space is really impressive to me.

It's very impressive. And what I— when I was watching interviews with them, so Gary Vee is a partner on this, um, on a couple of these things. Like, I don't know if he's an investor, if he gets a small stake, I don't know what— how the— how the thing is, but he's, he's mentioned in a lot of the articles as like either a co-founder or a founding team member, something like that. And basically I've hung out with Gary maybe only 3 or 4 times, including the time we had him on the podcast. I've hung out with him in person and he has the same energy that I've noticed Michael Rubin has, where there's basically like this thing that I have and I think every human being, even these guys, they just don't have a lot of it where it's like a self-limiting belief where it's like, well, you know, I can't do this because of this, this and this. And I've noticed with Gary, he's talked like one time he told me, he's like, I want to— my next thing, he's like, I'm going to create all these restaurants and they're actually going to be completely free. Free. And the way they're going to make money is Amex or whoever is going to sponsor it. Like, he was just brainstorming. He's like, but I'm going to do that. And in my head, I'm like, well, that's really dumb. I mean, a free restaurant, that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard of. But I feel like 9 out of 10 things he does, I would say that's a really dumb idea and they work. And, you know, he said he's going to come out with these— what's his NFT thing? It's VeeFriends. VeeFriends. Like, if he told me, I'm like, Gary, this is really dumb. Or, you know, like, that's not going to work. And it's been incredibly lucrative and very successful. And they don't have this limiting belief where it's like, this won't work for this reason or this reason. It was just like, well, why not? Like it, it logically it makes sense. I think this can work anyway.

This is very timely. So let me tell you why, by the way, I've noticed a lot of these coincidences happening in my life where I'm thinking about something or I'm doing something and then somebody who's like, uh, like-minded, they're almost experiencing the same thing and just in a different way. We trade these stories. So same exact thing. All right. I told you I'm reading Think and Grow Rich. There's a section in there that I remember, it's just stuck in my head. And he goes, "To be successful, one needs to be success conscious." And I was like, "I don't even know what that means. I don't think most people would know what that means." But the interesting part is the second line. It's what he says after that. He goes, "And people who fail all fail for the same reason. They take their current limitations as real limitations." They take the perceived limitations that they're feeling now and they treat them as real. And what you're saying is exactly that, which is that everybody, "Oh, I need to do this, but I don't have the time, but I don't have the money, but I don't have the experience. But this person said they would get back to me and they haven't got back to me yet. But the port is closed right now and so the shipment's going to be delayed." It's like there's always these limitations that feel very real in the moment. And what What successful people do really, really well is they sort of just ignore all those limitations. They ignore all the limitations about themselves. And even when somebody says no to them, they're like, okay, cool. But like, what does your boss think about that? How about I talk to them? Let me see what they have to say. How about I go to your competitor? Let me see what they have to say. How about I ask you again, but this time I'm gonna ask more playfully and later on at night out over a glass of wine. Now you're gonna have a different answer. And like, they don't take no for an answer on any front, you know, on their own limitations from there. They don't take no from themselves and they also don't take no from the world. And so I noticed that. And so yesterday we were finishing up our workout and we have a kind of like, you know, like we train the body, but we train the mind at the same time. And so we were talking about this. I said, man, I read this great thing and I know I could share it with him 'cause he's the type too that likes to eat this stuff up. And he goes, oh, that's great. And I go, but you know what? I don't wanna just sit here and say that's great. 'Cause what really means when I say this and we're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's true. Is we kind of do this thing where we're like, yeah, that's true, uh, other people fucked that up, but you know, not me.

Yeah.

Um, there's like this inherent like, yeah, other people really need to get this, but they don't get it. I get it. So I said, no, no, screw that. Just like we just did reps in the gym on our, you know, shoulders and, and lats and whatever else. I said, let's get a rep right here. I say, what's a, let's get a rep right now. What's something that you want that you just have some random limitation that you, it's not even like you haven't been able to overcome it, Honestly, you're just not even aware of it. You're not even like saying it out loud. Once you say it out loud, you'd probably find a solution to it, but you don't really do it. I said, I'll go first. I said, man, I, ever since I went and worked out at Sam's gym, I want my garage gym to feel like that. I already had the weights. I'm already doing the workout, but it doesn't feel the same. His gym feels amazing to be in. He's got the floor finished properly. He's got this, he's got the fan on the wall. He's got the music system. It just feels great. I want my gym to feel like that. And I said, I want that. And then what's my limitation? I hired this one contractor. He's been really slow getting back to me with a quote. It's like, well, I could think of 10 ways to solve that problem right now, but like, I just kind of hadn't put my awareness on what was, what was a random limitation that was standing in the way of me and something I wanted. And I, I told my trainer, I said, you gotta do one now. What's, what's a, what's something you want that you have a limitation? I said, let's get a rep. And this is a very powerful way of thinking, which is when you get advice, Don't just be like, "Yeah, advice. Let me write that quote down. Let me tweet that quote out." It's like, no, no, no. Apply it in the moment. Get a rep doing the thing. And so let me ask you, let's do it live. What's a thing you want in your life? And then what's the thing you want that you're not kind of like, it's not being realized fully right now? It could be anything. It could be something relationship, work-wise, money-wise, fitness-wise, whatever. Something small, something in your house, whatever. Um, what's the thing you want? And then try to shine that light on what's the limiting— what's something you've just let limit you for no reason that Gary Vee wouldn't, that Michael Rubin wouldn't?

Um, okay, this sounds silly.

It should sound silly. It's perfect because it's usually the silly things.

I've had a fear of camping for a long time, and I want to spend more time in the wilderness because I like the idea of it, but like, I'm kind of afraid of like being out at nighttime in the woods by myself or with like a small group.

Okay, great. So you want to camp and then you're afraid. And then so if you shine the light, what's the, what's the limited, what's the thought that goes in your head? Is it I don't have X or I'm afraid of Y? What is it?

I've just not, I've just, I've not bought like camping equipment. I've not looked at where to go. I've not told a buddy or two that I want to go do it. And that, and that I've, I've not take, I've just not planned anything.

Make it more personal. Why haven't you planned anything?

Uh, what's all the fear?

Fear of what?

Fear of being out at night in the wilderness by myself.

And that's the perfect stopping point because whenever you say the fear out loud, it sounds really fucking stupid. It's like, I'm afraid of being outside at night by myself. Like, first of all, I'm not scared. I'm not gonna be by myself. I'm gonna be with somebody because more fun with friends. Secondly, like, whatever, it's not that scary. I could do it. Uh, right. So like, that's the best part of like when you finally find the thing and you say it out loud It just sort of dissolves because it's like, well, that sounds silly. Like, huh, it doesn't have its— it doesn't have as much power once I say it out loud. Once I shine the light on it, it's like scurries away.

Well, you got to get your gym set up then. It's not that hard. I sent you the link.

I know, yeah, I have everything. The, the limiting thing was I don't know how to do home improvement projects. Like, I've never— I'm not handy, dude.

Do you know how to cut like a slice of bread? That's all you have to do when you lay down floor.

You just gotta be able to— even easier than that. I was like I could pay this guy to do it. Okay, that'll solve my problem. Oh, the guy's not responding. Okay. And then I just let it fizzle there. It's like, what? No, I want this.

Why?

I want this. Why would I, why would I just let this wait? And we, we all agreed that one common denominator in most of the things you want is you've come up with an excuse to wait. Um, like I'll give you another example. I hope he doesn't mind me saying this, but I had this guy who kind of was like an apprentice for me for a few months. And I, I basically was like, hey, he was like, hey, I want to learn about content and stuff like that. And I said, cool, you come help me research and write stuff, and I'll teach you some things. And after a few months, he went on his way and I was like, cool, go out there in the world. And since then, I think I could say his name. So it's this guy, Chris, I don't even know how you say his last name. Chris Hasluck. I don't know. It's a crazy last name.

Redhead guy who works at Goldman.

Redhead guy. Exactly. So he was a college student at the time. So when I was talking to him, he was a student at Yale. And after he did—

Nice guy. I've talked to him.

Super nice guy. After he did the apprenticeship, he grew his Twitter following. From, I think, 2,000 followers. He just hit 100,000 followers yesterday or 2 days ago. And he texts me, he's like, dude, I hit 100,000. Thank you. I learned a bunch of stuff. You showed me what good writing looks like. And I was like, dude, that's honestly, it's fucking amazing. You're a college kid and you did that? That's super impressive. And he's like, but I'm thinking about where do I go from here? I said, well, it's real simple. What do you want? I'm not going to tell you what to do next. What do you want to do next? And then go do that thing. It's really that simple. And he's like, "Oh, I want to start a company." And I said, "Okay, cool. So did you take that banking job that I was telling you not to take?" He's like, "Yeah, I've been here for a little bit. I don't think that might be the long-term thing for me. I think I want to start a company someday." I said, "Oh, you're waiting." He's like, "Yeah, yeah." I said, "Okay, why don't you just quit your job and go do that?" And he's like, "Well, you know." And he gave me another reason for waiting. I said, "Okay, so why don't you just go do it?" And he goes, Well, I, you know, if I did do it, I'd wanna do it with my friend. He's really, really smart, super smart guy, but he has to wait a year cuz he's graduating. He's not graduated yet. So, you know, I thought I'd just wait, you know, a year. I said, wait a year, huh? 10% of your 20s you're just gonna give away? Oh, most precious asset, just pissing it away, huh? Uh, just waiting, huh? Wait. Wow. And I was just like, and he's like, yeah, you know, and then also, you know, I wanna, I, I'm making good money right now. I wanna save up so I have enough runway, you know, money. Money is always like, you know, it does matter at the end of the day. I said, how about this? How about instead of telling me a bunch of reasons why you're not going to do the thing you want to do, you just start telling me some reasons you are going to do the thing you're going to— you want to do. Try that. It works much better. Trust me. And I was like kind of a dick about it, but it's really that fucking simple. And I notice— and it's not just him. I know this because I do this. I'm guilty of waiting for bullshit or coming up with reasons to wait. And so whoever's listening to this that needs to hear this, Don't wait. My trainer says, let me tell you, wait, wait is a weight on your back and stop waiting.

So, uh, I had a friend who, and, and we can move on after this, but I don't know if people, I think people will like this, but I had a friend who on, um, I do this all the time. So if I have friends or people who I care about in, on April 5th, I'm at the point where I've saved enough money to move forward with the prototyping process and feel like I found the right engineer to partner with. It's a decent amount of money, but I think I could do it. I wanna know what your thoughts are on How to launch this? I texted back. I go, uh, if I was you, I would do this, this, and this.

Right.

This morning I, I texted him. This was April 5th. I texted him today. How'd the idea turn out? He said, too expensive for me to commit my life savings. The cost in manufacturing and marketing of a physical product were way big and much bigger compared to starting a software or internet company. Oh wow. So you started a software company. LOL.

No, I love it.

I was about to say, I'm figuring out what to do. And what I'm going to stop being a worker bee. And then I'll probably, um, I can't say, I'll probably quit after blank IPOs, right? Don't even know what city I'll be in next year. And it's never going to happen. It's never going to— it will never happen. Oh no, it will never—

let's imagine lovingly for this guy, it is going to happen. It's going to happen once he stops thinking that way, right? Once he stops being that way, once he changes, that'll change. And so I— or she, I don't know, I don't know what it is, but basically, yeah, there's a, um, There's a funny thing with that. And, you know, I, I, I always wonder, like, do you be a dick or do you kind of like empathize?

If you care, you'd be a dick.

And why is that?

If you care— well, like, look, it's like, look, do you want this or not? And, and oftentimes I say to people, I'm like, do you really want this? I don't know if you actually want this. And I think that you just think it's cool to want this. And I don't think it's cool to want this.

You want to talk about—

either do or you don't, right?

You want to talk about it?

Like, if you just want to talk about it, just tell me you just want to brainstorm, right? Or you just want to shoot the shit, right? But if you're telling me that you want this, then I'll hold you accountable. Actually, I'll say, why haven't you done this, right?

Um, he goes, uh, he goes, you know, I treat people the way they told me they want to be. So you want to be fit, right? So then if you're going to complain about doing this sets, well, the guy who's fit does this, so I'm going to treat you from the place you told me you want to be. And hey, you, at any given time, you could come and say, I don't want it anymore, I changed my mind, I want this instead. Cool, I'm happy to change my treat— I'm happy to treat you differently when you tell me that you have changed your mind, that you don't want to— you don't want this anymore, you want something else. You are totally in your right to that. But let's be clear, I'm always going to ask you, did you change what you wanted? Because if you still want that thing, then I'm going to keep treating you like the person who gets that thing. And that person doesn't do or say these things. And so I'm not going to entertain it. I'm not going to be the shoulder to cry on. I'm not going to be the one who sympathizes and pats you on the head and says, "I understand why it's tough for you, why it's so hard," because it's not so hard for that guy. And so be that guy.

People DM us a lot of interesting ideas. My reply to all of them, they go, "What do you think about this?" I always reply with two things. I think that's an amazing idea. And I always say it's an amazing idea. And then I say, "When are you launching?" Yeah, it's always amazing. Like, you're just asking for permit. You're just asking for permission. So I'm going to give you permission. Amazing. There's no reason why this can't work. Oftentimes there's a lot of reasons, but it doesn't matter. When are you launching? Right. And, uh, I do a similar—

mine says, sounds cool, right? They say, but I have this idea. What do you think? I would love to hear your feedback, your thoughts. Happy to jump on a call. I don't even reply to any of that. I just say, sounds cool. Let me know when you launch it so I could check it out.

Yeah, I always say the same thing. And sometimes I, I'll reply months later, like I'll save certain conversations and I reply. Right. Do you wanna, um, talk about one more interesting thing, uh, on the list?

I have one thing from this De Beers thing that I've just, yeah, I've been dying to hear it. Okay. So, okay, so let me tell you this story. This kind of blew my mind. I gotta open up my notes for this cuz I, I did, you know, proper, proper research for this.

Um, So why don't you put your notes in this document so I can see them?

Oh, it's just really long. It's like 2 pages of notes. So I didn't wanna blow it up for this, but let me just tell you this story. I got your full and undivided attention. You can't even read the thing. You gotta listen to me say it. All right, so somebody in my family was thinking about getting engaged soon. And so the whole like engagement ring process was going on and they were asking like, you know, all the questions you have, 'cause you don't usually, most people don't buy a ton of diamond rings or some things like that. So they're kind of like, you know, what's the budget? I see there's these 4 C's, cut, clarity, which one should I care more about, blah, blah, blah. So, and then they did this thing. They went to a jewelry shop and they tried some. I said, just go try some on, see what you like. And I said, you're not gonna buy it from there, but go to a nice shop to try things on so you could see what shape you like, what color you like, what different prices will get you, that sort of thing. And they go and they came back and they said, hey, you ever heard about this lab-grown diamond thing? And, uh, have you heard of this?

Uh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Basically, they're— I mean, that's all it is. It's diamonds grown in the lab, right?

So just the way that, like, now you have, um, you know, for, for many different types of products— for meat, they're trying lab-grown meat. So what if instead of farming animals and killing them and, you know, contributing to a lot of, you know, global warming, you could just take a stem cell from a cow's shoulder and grow a filet mignon? Right? That's the promise. And there's a company called Memphis Meats that's doing it. And it tastes— it looks identical to the meat, to a steak. It tastes identical because it is identical cellularly, molecularly. It is identical to a normal steak. Now, the problem right now for meat is that it costs like $10,000 a pound or something crazy. So, you know, it's not economically feasible yet. And, um, and then there's this company I was looking at potentially investing in called Vitro Labs. And they're doing this with leather. They're saying, hey, instead of killing animals for leather, what if we could have a cruelty-free leather? Let's just grow the skin in a lab. And they're signing deals with, you know, big, big-name luxury brands, you know, the sort of who's who luxury brands that they want to offer a vegan product but they don't want to sacrifice the quality of the material. So they said, hey, let's get you an identical material, molecularly matching material for that. Okay, so I've been interested in this lab-grown trend, and diamonds was the latest one. So I said, oh, interesting. Diamonds, it's not the new, it's not new. It's actually much more commercially forward. It's like out there and people buy this stuff. It's growing in popularity compared to meats and leather, which are kind of like still in development. So, so I started looking into it and I was like, I was like, is this kind of like bullshit or what's going on? And here's what I found. The diamond industry itself is mostly bullshit. And a lot of people know this, but I dug into some of the history and here's what, here's what I found that kind of interests me. So before 1870, like diamonds weren't even like— they were not even considered rare. So, sorry, plentiful. Sorry, before 1870, they were rare because we didn't know where to find them. So like, you know, the Maharaja in India would, would have it in his crown, or, you know, some Egyptian person would have it in their, in their garment. But it was, it was so rare that you didn't even see it around. It wasn't even a thing. It wasn't even businesses around it. But then in 1870, they find this huge deposit in, I think, South Africa. And so now diamonds become this, like, they realize, oh, diamonds are actually not in short supply. There's tons of diamonds. They found this huge thing. And so all these miners go in like a gold rush basically. And they start, they start establishing diamond mines in South Africa. And then like 6 months later, a year later, they all realize like, shit, there's now too much supply. We're flooding the market with this stuff. And it's, we're all going out of business. Nobody can afford, um, nobody can afford, uh, to, to run the mine because we're, we're flooding so much supply. So the miners, uh, But no, so the miners like, damn it, if everybody else just stopped, I could make a bunch of money. But it's like the prisoner's dilemma. Nobody wants to be the one that stops. So they all keep going and they all put each other out of business. And so there's this guy Cecil Rhodes who comes around, and Cecil Rhodes starts buying up the mines. He's like, I need to aggregate all this supply in South Africa. So he starts aggregating it all. He basically buys mines from one of the farms is called something something that the brothers were called De Beers. That was their last name. So he becomes the De Beers, like Mining and Exploration Group or something like that, some name like that. So that's where De Beers, the diamond company, uh, comes from. And so De Beers became this— over the next 100 years, De Beers becomes this monopoly. They control 90% of the supply. And the reason diamonds are considered rare is because De Beers owns all the supply and they just limit how much they produce from the mines. They could produce 10 times more, but instead they intentionally restrict supply at the mining level. Then they— this is so monopolistic, it's crazy. So then they created this group of 200 people. Only 200 people were allowed to buy from them called site holders. And they said, oh, you were invited. So, so we control all the supply. So we decide who we sell to and we only are gonna sell these 200 and then you can go sell to merchants. Now we're gonna— so they could kind of hold these 200 people accountable and say, hey, why is this person over here selling at this low price? Cut them off. And like, they just cut you off. And if a new mine popped up, they would go like the mafia and they'll go and just sort of like through violence, intimidation, or like even just like market tactics, they would basically like put the mine out of business and take it over. So like, let's say you discovered a mine that had a bunch of yellow diamonds, they would flood the market with yellow diamond supply, crush your economics. You'd go outta business and they'd take over your mine.

Wow.

And so they, they would just find whatever you produce and they would just flood you. And so, um, So all the way up until about the year 2000, they owned 90% of this thing. But I was like, I was like, why is this? So if it's not rare, where does the value come from? And so the story is basically diamond mining wasn't big business right away. It was like an okay business, good business. And then it started to like, kind of like plateau and it wasn't really growing that fast. So 1936, they say, we gotta do something. We got all this diamond production, but there's not enough demand now. For the diamond production. So they go down Madison Avenue and they find this ad agency and they find this one guy. So everybody who loves diamonds today and every girl who's demanding a diamond engagement ring, it's because of this guy George Locke back in the day. And they hire this guy and they say, look, we need you to create demand for diamonds. And at that time, before 1936, people were not even giving diamonds as an engagement ring. It wasn't even like— rings weren't even an engagement process. It was like very rare that people would do that. Most people just kind of did an engagement as sort of a different sort of agreement. And so he does a big study and he says, okay, look, what we need to do is this. We need to get men to buy the diamonds for women, and we need the women to believe that diamonds are the way that your man can show you. So for women, it's like, if you want the man to say he loves you, we need diamond to represent love. Diamond equals love. That's like one side of the board. They said, on the other side, men, The bigger, the better, the more expensive the diamond, the more of a man you are. So it became diamonds.

And they came out worth— and it was, it was like some like ridiculously obvious statement that they came out with, right?

So they, they had a bunch. So they've done like, um, uh, Diamonds Are Forever is— was named, I think, one of the most, uh, I think it was named the marketing slogan of the century or something like that. I think of the last 100 years, it was voted that Diamonds Are Forever was the best marketing hook created because it created this like demand for diamonds. So why is that? So, so, so there's a bunch of like aspects to this. So first, how did they build demand? Well, it was basically in old school influencer marketing. So they decided, all right, we're gonna make diamonds look like the gift of love. And so they went to Hollywood and they went to all the producers and they said, we will give you producers, here's a beautiful diamond for you to give your wife. Here's a diamond for you, for you, for you on your, your bracelet or your necklace, your earrings or whatever. And they basically said, hey, um, We will give you these diamonds for free, producer, but you need to have a scene in your movie, the climax of your movie where the man professes his love for the woman. He needs to open up a box with a diamond ring inside, and then she needs to have an amazing reaction. Like she needs to be won over because the guy did that. And so they went to all these movie producers and the movies now all have these scenes and you could go back and watch this montage of before this, nobody was doing this in movies. All of a sudden, every movie, this was the key scene. The guy pronounces his love for the woman and gives her a diamond and she says, oh my God, I love you too and kisses him back. And so they like use that kind of inception. Then they went to fashion designers and said, hey, would it be a shame if you didn't say that the trend next year, the big trend is that diamonds are in? Let's call it the trend to diamonds. So they created this thing called the trend to diamonds and they just got all these fashion designers to ambiguously continuously say there's a trend to diamonds. So now you have the high art people saying this, and then you have Hollywood showing it. And that was like the main sort of brainwashing mechanism of the world at the time. No social media, no nothing. And so then they said, so then, you know, the ad agency starts getting, you know, clever. They're like, all right, how do we make the diamond proportionate to the man's success? What if it was, you have to spend one month's salary on this? And they went with one month's salary, and then they upped it to two months' salary. And then they had an advertising campaign that said, Um, how do you make 2 months of salary last forever? Buy a diamond. Oh man. Amazing, right? And then, and then they were like, okay, look, but hey, we all know that diamonds are actually not that rare, right? So we can't have people reselling these. So they said, oh, uh, first of all, if you make it the, the, the, the ultimate gift of love, the woman won't wanna sell it, the guy won't wanna sell it. And then even if they do, here's what we'll do. Dealers, the, you, the, the merchants who sell this, you cannot take diamonds back. 'Cause diamonds, even though they are like seen in the world as like a store of value, it's like, oh, well, it's jewelry. It's like, you know, jewelry's kind of like a safe way to store your wealth. It's like a car. If you take a diamond out of the shop, it's lost 50% of its resale value. And the dealer doesn't want you to know that, so they won't even make you an offer to buy it back. So they banned merchants from like making offers to buy it back 'cause they didn't want the merchant to tell the customer, hey, once you buy this thing, it's worth half. Uh, and so they said, don't even make an offer. And, um, and so they, they kind of like killed the resale market and then they created this Diamonds Are Forever campaign so that you would not wanna sell your diamond. And they did this country by country. So like you can look in any country, you could see this chart. So it's like the US goes through this curve where no one's buying diamonds to like 75% of engagements are all through diamonds. And then, uh, 90%, it gets to like 90-something percent are, are engagements are done through diamonds. In Japan. They, they're like, oh, we have no market share in Japan. They go, they do the same marketing playbook there. It goes from 5% of brides have a ring to 60% in 20 years, in a 20-year period. And De Beers owns 70% of that market share, right? And then they started creating other marketing gimmicks like the right-hand ring. It's like, if you're an independent woman, you, you know, you don't want this ring on your left hand that shows that you're kind of owned by this man. Wear a right-hand ring. You need a diamond on your right hand that says that's the right-hand ring, the 25th anniversary ring, the upgrade ring. Like, you know, just show that you were doing better than you were before. And so they created all this— like, they literally fucking created the demand and they restricted the supply. It's kind of unbelievable. Um, so that's kind of like the— that's amazing— the core of it. There's some other stuff, like, you know, there's like sort of the blood diamonds thing, which is like the bad PR around it, which is that these diamond mines were, A, kind of shitty conditions to be in, Um, but B, they were like basically using profits from the mine to fund like war in the area, like militia war in the area. So that was kind of like, you're basically funding conflict in a way. And so the diamond industry tried to like, after that movie Blood Diamond came out, they tried to like clean up their image, but then lab-grown diamonds started coming out. And, um, and so the lab-grown diamonds come out, it's like, oh shit. So first they create a marketing campaign that says real is rare. And they basically were like, if it's real, that's what makes it rare, which is what makes it valuable. So if it's a lab-grown thing, uh, that's nothing. And they refused to acknowledge it. They refused to sell it. They refused to care about it. But customers were like, dude, this is— it's indistinguishable from a diamond. The naked eye cannot tell what's a real diamond, like mined from the earth, or made in a lab. Because materially, again, the composition is the same. It's not like a fake— it's not like a fake diamond. It's the same material. It was just grown in a lab rather than grown in the earth.

And so I always get the, the Shein commercials, right? And they say like, you don't want to get them from a lab, from a lab. It's, it's, it's just like every other one. They're all the same.

Exactly, exactly. It's not special. And so the problem is it's still growing in popularity because they sell for about 30% of the price. So you could get like a way bigger ring that looks identical to a diamond ring that is made of a diamond, um, but it just happened to have been like— it's like, do I want my coffee sourced from, you know, Canada or from Philippines or from Africa? Like, It's kind of like, where is it sourced? So some people care, but it's growing in popularity. So then De Beers and the diamond industry, they like did the last kind of like stone cold killer move. For years they were like, lab grown is fake, it's bullshit, don't buy it. But it was just growing in popularity anyways. So they were like, all right, shit, we gotta do something else. So then they create this brand called Lightbox and they start producing lab grown diamonds. Everyone's like, oh my God, does this mean that lab is legit? And they're like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Lab is for people who can't afford diamonds, so we're gonna sell ours. So they undercut the price like crazy. So normally a lab-grown diamond will cost like 30 or 40% the cost, so it's like a 50-60% discount. And but they started pricing theirs at like a 90% discount of a real diamond just to ruin the market value of the brand perception of lab-grown diamonds. And they said, this is for— they said, they came out in a statement, they said, this is for emotionally shallow events like a Sweet 16 or like a quinceañera party. Buy the lab-grown for that. Don't, you know, so this is their latest tactic to try to like keep up this big myth, this big lie that diamonds are this rare, valuable, precious gem. And it's like actually complete bullshit.

This is amazing research. This is a good one. This is a very good story. And what— but here's the thing where we are, uh, maybe it will change, is us in our 30s, we all do the same thing, which is right before we get engaged, we say, this is bullshit. I will not stand for this. I will not pay this amount of money.

Right.

My budget, I'm going to set it really low. I'm going to get a fake one or I'm going to get a lab girl. Like, I will not buy into this. And then you get into it and you say, fuck it, it's going to make her happy.

She's going to make her happy. Yeah.

And we all refuse to buy into it.

Well, more and more people are starting to go the other way. Um, but, but yeah, it's, it's amazing that this is still the majority, right? Given now that lab-grown is visibly identical and you can get a way better, better looking diamond for, for cheaper price, uh, it's amazing that, that like the real— the utility doesn't overwhelm, but like the branding is that embedded, it's that strong after so long. And actually there's one other part which is that eventually, you know, the diamonds do, um The De Beers did lose their monopoly, I should say. So like in the year 2000, they basically broke up the monopoly because they were getting a lot of public pressure as a monopoly. The buyers were kind of sick of being like constantly threatened by De Beers. And then people found new mines in Australia and all these other places where they couldn't, like you could kind of just, in Africa you can kind of like coerce people, but in Australia it's a lot harder to like go coerce a miner in public to like just fucking give you their mine. And so they've changed their business strategy. And the last factor, by the way, there's this guy— the family that kind of like created the real Monopoly is the Oppenheimer family, and they've run this thing for years. First guy, Oppenheimer.

How rich are they?

They're very wealthy. So the business, I think, is like a $10 billion business. I think they sold half the stake for $4 or $5 billion recently. And I also think they own like 50% of Louis Vuitton or something like that. They own some other stuff too. But, um, but anyways, they couldn't— the, the, in the family, there's no one to take it over anymore. Uh, no one wants to run the business. Nobody— none of the young generation, they didn't want— they don't want the business. There's nobody, there's no heir. And so they're like, shit, there's no heir, business is still good, but it's getting harder and we don't have somebody to fight it. And so they actually switched strategy. So they broke up the monopoly and now they shifted from like 90% market share to 30%. Uh, and then they started rolling out their own retail stores and profits have gone up, but they're kind of like, they're, um, you know, their control has gone down, their power has gone down.

And I would have to But if I had to bet, I'm a very amateur historian, and so I've read a lot of these stories. If I had to bet, I would bet that once you break up a monopoly for a family-owned business, I would argue that the odds are that the family are now actually going to get richer. It seems like when—

Because what? What do you mean?

Well, so for example, Standard Oil, this is the same thing. In the 1920s, Teddy Roosevelt said, "Nope, Standard Oil, you are the De Beers of America. You own 80% of oil production." You can't do it anymore. So they broke it up into 5 or 8 different companies. And some of those companies are Exxon, uh, Mobil, um, BP, right? Um, Conoco, and like 5 or 6 other companies that you probably know of. Um, and it made Rockefeller get significantly richer because he owned a small stake into each one, right? And they all competed with each other and they boost their revenue, boost their profits. And they all made— and he made significantly more money because of that. And that was, uh, the big source of his wealth was when they broke up the company. And I would say that if Facebook and Instagram had to compete with each other, um, it would actually make Zuckerberg richer. Same with YouTube and Google. If they had to compete, it would probably make them better and thus the owners a little bit more rich.

Exactly. I, I agree. That's why when people talk about breaking up Facebook, it's like, well, you know what this is going to do, right? Like, they're all going to become more valuable and the services will become better, but it does open up more room for competition, whereas when they have an absolute stranglehold, then, you know, it may not be as lucrative and it may not be as good of a product, but it's very hard to break in.

Yeah, that was great. That was—

well, there's also like an opportunity here, right? Like, as I learned this, I was like, okay, I know this is not new, but if I just sample the population, it's like, on one hand, you do two surveys. One survey they did was, hey, did you know about lab-grown blah blah blah? Here's what— here's like, look, you can't tell the difference. Look, it's made of— it's actually the same material composite. It's the same material as diamond. It's just grown from a lab rather than mined in the earth. And hey, you don't have to worry about the, like, ethics of the mining because it's not, not mined from the earth. 70% of, like, millennials are like, yeah, I'm totally open to that. That sounds great. But then at the same time, the market share hasn't caught up yet. And so I think that even though this is not a brand new thing, I think that people could create really valuable brand. Like, I'm curious if somebody listened to this that wants to go and basically take an education-based approach to selling this, because I think the more you educate people, the more they want to like, the more willing they are to buy. And if you're the one who educates them, you get that first right of refusal to sell them, sell them their first lab-grown diamond.

And I think I would bet that millennials won't do this. But what's the generation after that? Z? I believe they would. And the 18— because, you know, they're so politically correct and they're very— they, they, they, they have a high bullshit detector, I believe. And for me and my friends, a lot of us were like, this is not the battle I'm going to choose.

Right.

I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna, you know, buy my way out of this and, and, and we'll fight a different battle. Right. With them, I don't, I would argue that there's a good chance that something like that could happen. I don't think it will happen now, but I think in 10 years when the 18-year-olds get in their 20s and 30s, uh, and I would bet money, I, I, I would bet my money, I think that that could work as well. So I'm bullish on this too.

Yeah, that's great. Um, all right, do we want to do it?

This is a good story. That, that— yeah, we, um, that, that— this has got to be our, our YouTube clip. That was a very well-researched and very good story.

Good job very much.

So that's the episode. We'll see. Let's see if this one's a hit. I think it was kind of interesting. What do you think, Ben?

I thought it was great. Um, the De Beers stuff is super, super interesting. Um, and, uh, and the intensity stuff Uh, the, the sushi story was great.

Loved it.

Good.

Speaking of intensity, you dunked on somebody this week, you said?

Did you really?

Can you dunk? How tall are you?

He's Mormon, of course he can dunk.

So I'm 6'4".

Apparently it's like the basket— isn't, isn't it, isn't it the basketball of, uh, of the— like, whenever all my Mormon friends, they— it seems like they always are playing basketball on Sunday.

All of our churches have basketball courts in them. And so even like non-Mormons play basketball in our churches.

Now, are we talking— I'm 6'4". You could do windmills or we're barely scraping the dunk through or what's going on?

So, you know, like when I was younger, when I was in high school, I could do like tomahawks and 180s and like pretty good dunks. But, you know, over the pandemic, I didn't play basketball for like almost a year and a half. So I didn't know if I still had it. And last night I just drove. I was going down the lanes. Actually, a buddy of mine jumped with me and I wasn't planning on doing him like that, but I was just— I was there and I had to do it. I dunked on him.

Can you please send me a video of something like this and I would share it? I'll tweet the evidence. I don't think you're a guy that would lie at all, but I would love to see this. I don't think that you're a guy that would even exaggerate a little bit.

Yeah, not at all.

I would love to see this.

I don't have the video of me dunking on the guy, but I sure I have video of me dunking, so I can—

yeah, can I send it to me? I would share that in a heartbeat. I would love to brag about that. I— are you— you're 6'4"? We've never seen Ben in real life, by the way.

You're 6'4"?

Yeah, last company I worked for was all remote, and, uh, we had an offsite. We all met each other for the first time, and everyone was blown away. They were like, "Oh, I didn't know you were so tall." And one, like, I—

if I—

one person at the company told me, she's like, "You have short energy. I can't believe you're tall." Wow, I know.

Dude, I saw this really hilarious TikTok yesterday where this girl just goes, oh, I go around on livestreams and I just give people compliments for, I call it, I go, we love our short kings. And she goes to tall guys' streams, like normal height or taller guys' streams, and she goes, yeah, we stan our short king. We love our short king with kissy face. And the guys, and she clipped together their reaction and they're just, they're all like, we love our short king. And they get excited. They're like, wait, what? I'm 6 and a quarter. Like, I don't know who you're calling short king. And then like, and everybody gets like super butthurt about it right away. It like really fucks up their brain. And she goes, it's hilarious. Just call him like my short king.

Ben, please send me a video of you dunking on fools. I would love that. That would make, that would make my day.

I'll send it to you right now. Sean, Sam, how tall are both you?

I'm 6'1".

I'm 6'1". Yeah, we're both, uh, we're both, uh, of similar height and weight, I think. I mean, I like when, when, when people meet both of us, they say, you guys are much bigger than we thought. And I would say that when we're together, we look big and tall. And Sean, you look taller than you are, I think, too.

Oh good, I don't know what that means, but I'll take it. It's better than being called a short king.

Well, I think it's because you got big hair.

That's right, that's right.

You know what I don't get?

Do you, do you guys feel tall at 6 foot and 6 foot 1?

No, I don't.

You feel average height, right? Like to me that's like 6 foot 6, but like if you look at global averages or even American average, like the American male height is like only 5'9" or something, right? Or some, yeah.

Yeah.

It's like, it's short. You guys are super tall, which I don't know. There's a disconnect.

Well then you're a giant, I guess so.

Yeah.

By that logic. Um, no, I don't, I don't feel tall. I feel, uh, I feel thicker than the average person, that's for sure.

And you are. So Ben, uh, when you dunked on the guy, did you like scream? What did it feel like? I mean, I've never dunked on anyone. I've only— I've dunked a volleyball once. That's the closest I ever got. It was like, actually not even a volleyball, something smaller than a volleyball.

I mean, that's pretty good. That is pretty good.

I was like in high school, so it wasn't great.

The guy was a friend of mine. I had— we'd been playing some pickup at a Mormon church actually, and I just won like 4 games in a row. And I think people like, morale is pretty low, so I just played it cool. I didn't say anything. I just kind of randomly—

by the way, I'm not being prejudiced. It's a thing that Mormons like. You— it's like, I've always known that there was basketball courts at the church, and it's like your church is like a community event, right? You hang out there after church.

Yeah, we have weekday events there sometimes, uh, especially for like youth, and like, yeah, people play basketball there.

Yeah.

Yep.

Yeah, so it's a thing. It is a thing.

Sam's a Mormon thing to go dunk on someone politely as you did. Like, it's such a Mormon move to politely dunk on somebody.

And then just like, and then like drink a Coke. I do too, right?

Uh, a lot, many Latter-day Saints, many, many members of the church do drink a lot of soda because we don't drink coffee or tea. Um, but I don't.

Yeah, whenever I go to Utah, like, I'll go to the drive-through at these like soda places and they've got the best sodas, like the weirdest combinations. I love it. I'm, I'm Team Mormon, man. I'm an honorary member, I hope.

Sam, are you a Coke or Pepsi guy?

Coke. Diet Coke Zero all the way, all day.

Ben, Coke or Pepsi?

I've, I've actually never had either in my entire life.

What?

Oh, amazing. That's amazing.

Okay, great.

I saw this great Reddit thread that was like brands, uh, if their slogans were true, like truthful brand slogans, and the Pepsi one was, um 'Is Pepsi okay?' I thought it was so fucking clever. It's like the thing at the restaurant, you order a Coke and then they hit you with, 'Is Pepsi okay?' Um, all right, that's the episode.

Let's see, uh, we gotta cut those into clips. We had a bunch of good ones. See ya.

I feel like I could rule the world. I know I could be what I want to.