The Story Of Death Row Records Co-Founder Harry-O (#421)

You told me by age 26 you had 11 different businesses. You said around that in your early or mid-20s you were producing Broadway shows, that you were like in the mix at a very early, early age. How did that kind of come to be and what were those 11 businesses? All right, man, we're live. We, uh, we always just kind of hop into things. But, uh, on the pod today we have Michael Harris. But do you like to go by Harry O or Michael? What do you like to go by?

Well, people call me, you know, people that know me by Harry O call me Harry, call me O or Michael, whatever works.

So I'll kind of set this up, but basically I'll tell you, I, I, I've, I've read a lot about you and I've read about a lot of the work that you've done. The way that we got connected was We have a mutual friend named Chris who has this thing called The Last Mile, which helps people when they get out of prison, helps them get jobs at tech companies. And he's been bragging about you, 'cause I told him, you can't see it now 'cause I redecorated, but on my wall I used to have a picture of Tupac and Dre and Eazy-E, 'cause I loved N.W.A. and I loved like the rebellious culture of people who created cool stuff. And he goes, hey, you know, I know the guy who is part, you know, part brains behind all that. And I go, what? And he said, who you, you know, he said your name. I go, oh, I've read all about him. And he goes, well, I, he's my, he's my buddy. And so that's kind of how, that's kind of how we got connected. And so I thought today we can kind of talk a little bit about your story so people can learn about you, but then also we can talk a little bit about business and kind of the stuff that you went through. So you, uh, where are you from?

Los Angeles. I'm from the East Side of Los Angeles, California.

You told me by age 26, you had 11 different businesses. You said around that in your early or mid-20s, you were producing Broadway shows that you were like in the mix at a very early, early age. How did that kind of come to be? And what were those 11 businesses?

Well, I used to be— I used to, I used to own a limousine. First business I had was a limousine service. That was, uh, quite profitable. And I also had a construction company, I had production companies, I had music companies, I had, uh, salons, like beauty salons, I had, um, real estate investment companies. So I was just kind of like all over the place. And I also produced, uh, not just concerts and plays, but also, uh, I supported clubs in the city.

How big was the limo business?

I had about 30 cars. And so, but they was luxury limousines. They were Ultra Scratches. At the time it was pretty impressive, the style of car that we had, yes.

What type of monthly revenue can a limo business make?

Man, it depends. I stay pretty booked. I spend a lot of time advertising. So a lot of times I would have, beyond the cars that I possess, I would have people calling me. And so a lot of the services that surrounded me didn't have business. And so I would form out the rest of the business that I didn't have the capacity to serve. So a lot of times I would provide opportunities for the other car services. That didn't advertise as much as I did. So maybe somebody needed 100 cars and only had 30. I could provide them with 100 because I would parlay it out to what they call farm out to the other companies, which you get 50% of the service that is conducted.

Like an affiliate fee.

Right, right. But you actually get half. You get half of what it is because you're the one who initiated the sale. So.

What, how old were you? And how old were you when you had a limo company that had 30 cars?

I probably maybe 23 years old.

How on earth does that happen? What age did you start working?

Well, I, you know, as a youngster I started working. I used to work at, I mean, likely places to learn business structure. When I was a kid, I mean like I'm talking about like, Before I even went to junior high school, I worked at a shoeshine parlor. And at that shoeshine parlor, it was in my neighborhood, but it was two shoeshine parlors. There was one on one end of the corner and one was on the other end of the corner. What I was able to learn from that experience as a 12, 13-year-old kid, 11, 12, 13-year-old kid, is competition and how business was ran. These two guys competed with each other, but they also hired, you know, kids from the neighborhood to work at these shoeshine parlors and we competed with each other. And so I learned a lot about business from that practice and that process. But I also learned, I used to listen a lot. You know, a lot of people come in different, from different walks of life. It could be preachers and business owners, people from the street. And you would just, you know, while you shining their shoes, you're listening at a young age and you're hearing different, hearing about different opportunities. Opportunities and how people approach business differently. And so I was always like a sponge at a young age. But, you know, for instance, and I also learned how never to judge a book by its cover. Like sometimes a guy might pull up and be in a nice car and you're like, people is, you know, trying to get that customer. And this guy comes in, may only have one or two pair of shoes and may not even be a tipper. But then a guy pulls up in a station wagon or a regular car and he might have 30 cars 30 shoes in there. And also as a big tipper. So it's just this learning how to read people and just that whole competitive thing that was amongst us as youth to compete and be at our best, be dressed, representing, and honing in on our skill. So I try to learn something from everything I always did as a kid. Like, how do I use this moving forward? What is it? What's the lesson? You know, learned here, you know. So, uh, that was— that was— and my mother also owned a, a restaurant in the neighborhood, and I watched how she navigated that and how she would— how she handled her customers and how she worked with her staff. And, you know, I actually remember before she bought that business, when she used to work for the people that she bought it from, how she, you know, raised up— rose up in that in terms of management and then acquired that business. And so just watching people be effective in business at a young age had a profound effect on me.

And you end up kind of getting in trouble, which I'll let you tell a story in your 20s. But before that, how big was your empire in terms of employees at its peak?

I probably had about 150 employees.

And can you reveal like how much revenue like this whole, the whole empire was bringing in?

Well, I was, I was making millions of dollars. I mean, you know, it's 35, 36 years ago, so I don't remember the exact, I mean, that builds up though.

What do you, what did you do with your money?

I always invested in real estate.

In real estate. And so you're not, not public equities. You liked real estate and you're, so you're buying real estate, what, your neighborhood?

Yeah. Well, yeah, all over. Any, anywhere I could find a deal. You know, to buy up, you know, like rehab properties as well as no luxury properties and business outlets. I would purchase it.

How many did you own? How many buildings?

Probably 30 or 40 buildings.

Damn, you still own them?

Yeah, I own what I own. It's been a long time, brother.

I mean, that adds up, that adds up. I just started purchasing some stuff about 3 years ago. And I'm like, if I just get 1 or 2 every single year, I mean, these definitely add up. And you bought at a good time, I bet.

Oh yeah, it was, you know, I was in a position to buy a different type of properties that came into my preview, so.

But the thing that you're most famous for is the entertainment stuff. When did you, what led you to entertainment? Was it? The plays at first?

No, one of, one of my first— well, I said limousine was one of my first major business, but I had opened up, um, I had opened up a, uh, a one in that building I was telling you about that was on 54th and Crenshaw. I opened up a studio and we created a company. It was, I believe it was called the Jingle Factory. And what I would do is make commercials for local businesses, and so with the local radio stations, and so like KLJLH and KACE. And so that brought me around musicians. So, you know, I would have people sing hooks and make certain melodies for it to go with, you know, certain businesses to give it a certain aesthetic. And so a lot of, producers and singers would come into the studio, and I kind of just kind of drifted off into that world. Um, so I'm managing groups and, uh, working with, uh, different record labels and production companies. And at the same time, as my Limousine Girl was growing, I worked with a lot of production companies as well, and artists would use my services. So just being in that circle connected me to that world. And so, for different reasons, I got involved in the music business.

Was there anyone that I would know of that you started working with, like, really early on around that time at the— was it called the Jingle Factory?

Yeah, the Jingle Factory was commercial-based. Like, you know, we did commercials in the city. So basically that, I did my own jingles for my own limousine service as well. So no, that was non-celebrity. That was just commercial. But at the same time, I started working with, you know, Motown. I started working with, at the time, Motown was pretty hot in the city. So I was working with Motown behind the scenes a lot.

And then how did that kind of go into the production companies?

Well, I created a production called Why Not Production. And I just felt like during that time, it was hard for people that look like me to really get a stronghold in the city. So I decided to create my own production company. So, and I would, you know, be available to help produce artists that didn't have the financial wherewithal to be able to do it themselves. And somebody brought me a play opportunity And I never was involved in plays until that moment. And I just thought it was just a real creative space for people who were in the movie business but didn't have work at the time, but could hone in on their craft and also provide entertainment in the community. And a lot of people may not have been used to experiencing the plays. And so that gave me an opportunity to bring that kind of entertainment. to my community. So it was very exciting. I got to meet some, some pretty heavy hitters.

Like who?

I met Denzel, uh, during that opportunity. I met, uh, Paul Winfield. I met Vanessa Williams. I met, uh, Richard Lawson. I met, uh, Ruby Dee, uh, I mean, Al Freeman. I mean, I could just go down the list, uh, There was a number of people who worked with me on this production. I worked with a guy named Woody King, who's out of New York, who was the director. And Ron Milner happened to be the author of this particular play called Checkmate. And I was able to take it to various cities and ultimately got it to Broadway with the Nederlanders on 46th. Broadway, and my life came crashing down right before we actually launched on Broadway. We was on Broadway, but I didn't get to market and promote it the way I normally do. I like to market and promote the projects that I'm involved with.

And so what does that mean? You basically, you know, someone came to you and they go, hey man, I got this idea for this play. I got, here's my vision, yada, yada, yada. Here's what I think could be the outcome. And you're like, all right, cool, I'll put up $100K, I'm half owner, and I'll help make connections. You're gonna do a lot of the day-to-day work. I'll oversee and I'll make some connections. And, or were you more hands-on? Like, what's that look like?

Okay, like when you talk about, like when I was telling you about all my investments was consistent, like I would like to come into the management aspect of it. What that does though, Uh, helps me understand the business. Okay, I may have management skills, but I may not have an insight on that particular business. So part of that relationship, that merging of that relationship, you need to teach me everything you know about what you do. And then I, you know, compile that with my management skills and then we could, you know, move on to the next level. But that was part of what I would do. You know, I would come in and decide if this is something I wanna invest in and I would become the managing partner. But also I wanna learn everything that everybody here knows so that I could be effective in that position. And so that's usually the role I always took.

What's it like working with— and by the way, at this point you're still in your 20s.

Yes.

And you were working with some up-and-coming people, but you were definitely probably working with some established people. What did they think about this guy? They say this— I mean, you got this tough guy persona now. I bet you had that same persona back then. You know, you could be— you, you can be intimidating. I imagine they're like, I don't know about no tough guy. Well, I, I'm saying that's my opinion. And if I had to do business with you, I'd be like, man, I don't want to make this guy mad. And So if you're in your 20s and like, ooh, this young Black guy from, he's talking about living in LA, now he's wanting to be out here in New York putting on these plays. Like, who is this guy think he is? Like, did you deal with a bunch of that?

Like, I always respect other people's territory, you know, no matter what business you're in. And I always deal with people respectfully, you know. I mean, there may, it's the persona and the perception of me, and then it's the reality of me. And so the reality is that I always was straight up, you know? So there may be that tension, there may be that consideration before they get to know me, but then once they get to know me, oh, this guy's, you know, he's up, you know, straight up, 100, you know, keep it real. You know, it wasn't, you know, I just think that, I don't know. Probably later on when the Death Row stuff happened, I just think people conflate everybody's attitude as one. And we all were different. We all came from different vantage points to help create that. And I just think that sometimes people don't pull back and say, "Who are the individuals that was a part of that entity?" And that's a different, that will bring about a different perception once people got to know who you are. You know, I come from a pretty tough neighborhood. I don't argue that. I think that you had to be pretty strong to survive it. And especially with certain businesses that I was in as a youth, you had to be pretty strong to survive it. And a lot of things I did at my younger youth, I'm not really proud of, especially now today after being away for 33 years and going through that experience and reflecting back on my quick rise and heavy fall. But at the same time, I always try to stay positive and try to see what that journey had to offer.

So you said, The play didn't work out 'cause your life came crashing down. What's that mean?

Right when we went through the pre-Broadway and got ready to open full scale, I was arrested and sent to prison.

What were the charges?

I was arrested for, one, for attempted murder, and two, later for drug conspiracy. And the later, the drug, the attempted murder was, I was exonerated at the end after 30, after—

Goddamn.

23 years. But, you know, I knew I was innocent and I think that made me take it, you know, lightly. And I didn't really, I kept working while I was out on bail, not thinking that this would, the results that happened would happen. I thought I was, you know, I would be vindicated and life was upside down.

What, were you guilty of the drug charges?

Yeah, I used to be involved in drugs. And so I was also, even though I had got outta the drug business, you know, you get pulled back in based on some, previous phone calls I had got out. But still, you know, that's, they call that karma, you know, you have to pay the piper.

And when I, when you Google your name, one of the first thing comes up, it's this interview you did, I forget the publication, but the article said at one point you were doing something, I think it said close to $1 million a day in drug sales. Is that true?

I think it said 2.

Was it 2 million a day?

Yeah, I think it said 2. I'm not proud of that.

So what's the story of that?

It was hard work. I mean, you know, I mean, the thing is, uh, and that's coke, I guess. Yes, it was cocaine. Yeah. And I think that, uh, like I was saying before, uh, whatever I put myself to, uh, good, bad, or indifferent, it was, it was like I put myself to it, you know, and then it was like only after watching the repercussions throughout my community and communities across the country that I realized that, you know, what was making me rich was also making me poor in spirit and in culture, you know. I was helping to destroy my own community. And so, you know, so I don't really take a lot of joy in talking about the amount of money I made in that business, even though I was engaged and I was pretty focused in that business when I was young and misguided in that business venture. But I had a lot of time to reflect.

And I bet that's confusing because Whenever, you know, I start something and it starts working out, working out, I get, it's like a dopamine rush, you know, just seeing the sales come in. I mean, it's exciting, you know, like it's fun.

Of course.

In your case, it's, even though people were getting hurt, it's definitely exhilarating and it is exciting. And even if you're using the money to invest in cool stuff that helps your community, it's still, and it hurts people, it's still exciting. I mean, I bet that's still an exhilarating adventure's life.

And, and you gotta understand, so at, at a young age, You know, just, you gotta put everything in its proper context. You know, like, I'm growing up, people selling weed, you know, it's no harm, you know? It's like— And then this thing is introduced to the community, and it's just the next level from selling marijuana or whatever it is. And you— Next thing you know, you're involved, and all you see is the dollars, you know, what you're making, the transactions. You don't really— 'Cause everybody was, you know, you smoke weed, next day you get up, you go to work, you do what you do. You don't really know. You had no previous, uh, insight on what this could become. And so it's just like, okay, this person is buying, you selling it, it's in your community, it's available. That's it. That's all you see. And then when you see later on, when you see that this is not like marijuana, this is something else, and it's changing the The, uh, it's just changing the whole makeup of the community. You know, people are just not themselves no more. And now it's like, whoa, you know, especially if you're a conscious person and you was raised in a good, you know, family setting, and now you out here hustling and you hustling in a way that other people that have become vulnerable to this particular drug, which I never used, so I didn't know I didn't know what it felt like, but that, you know, there's people that I cared about later, I would see them fall victim to it. And, you know, that's that karma I'm talking about. It comes back to you, you know? It's like, wow, this is what I'm doing. And so, yeah, I made a lot of money. It was exciting. It was adventurous. It was enterprising. But then it also had that side that you can't ignore.

And then you got, what was your sentence? 33 years? And that was mostly the attempted murder or the—

No, that was not my sentence. I had a 25 to life. And on top of that, I had a 20-year sentence with the federal, with the feds. Damn.

What's that feel like hearing that?

It's unbelievable, but it's real. I mean, like the, The criminal system is real. I mean, it's like a lot of people— I think conversations like the one we have should be had more. I think people just see the glitz and glamour of a particular lifestyle, and the fact that a lot of us have very little patience because some of us live in conditions that are unbearable. And so you just want to get out however you got to get out. And so— you don't realize that the patience that you need, that you can exercise, that you should exercise, could save you a lifetime of misery. And so, in hindsight, you can see, like in reverse. So I believe I should be a conduit for that. I believe I should be able to talk to people that are poised to make some of the same youthful mistakes that I made, thinking that it's gonna solve the problem when it creates multiple problems and it affects your family and the community in ways that you can't even imagine.

When you were, so you started Death Row, and I wanna hear about that, while in prison, after you went in?

Yes.

How on earth does that work?

Well, you know, I'm enterprising. What do you want me to tell you? I mean, what do you want me to say? What do you want me to say? Well, what's it?

I mean, when you're just sitting there, you have a visitor, or you're writing letters, you're doing phone calls, and someone comes to you and be like, hey man, you want to start a record label? I mean, I don't even know. I mean, how long were you in there before you kind of got this idea, or how'd that happen?

Well, like I told you, I was involved in different aspects of the entertainment business already. So it was kind of like I was already bitten by the bug. What happened was, I don't know if I should tell you this part, or maybe you should wait till the movie come out. But maybe, you know, maybe you done already heard some aspects of this, but it's just, you know, I was— I just still had all this energy inside of me that I wanted to do something. I didn't want my sentence to be the end of me. And I just couldn't stop. You know, I'm the kind of guy that only slept 3 hours a day. And, uh, and like I said, ran 11 businesses. How do you go to prison and sit there and be okay with that? You know, it's just not what it is. So you always— you're trying to find something outside of your environment that allows you to stay alive, uh, in spite of your circumstances, in spite of your sentence that has been imposed. You just, you know, you're still youthful and you still want to have an impact. Because like I say, when you deal with the totality of a person and you see that there was more good than bad in that person, that's what you're trying to get back to. You know what I'm saying? Like, sometimes, like I say, just trying to find a cool place in hell, you know, for all the bad things that I did, you know, praying that God could, you know, forgive me for that. And at the same time, being able to give something back to my community that they can use instead of something they shouldn't use.

So what's that creation story look like? Who contacted, I mean, I told you I read, which book? Ruthless, is that what the book's called? Ruthless? Is that by Jerry Heller? So I have that.

Yeah, so Ruthless was before Death Row, right?

Right, right, right.

So Death Row is the, if you say, if you will, the next step. Iteration of Ruthless, because one of the main components of Ruthless was Dr. Dre. And Dr. Dre was the producer of the music that mostly was produced by N.W.A. Mostly all the music that was released at N.W.A. was produced by Dr. Dre. And so, N.W.A. was a group, and Dr. Dre was a part of that, but he also was the engine that made it run. But I don't think that Eazy-E, rest in peace, and Jerry Heller, also deceased, understood what— understood Dre's value to the point where it shouldn't have been overlooked. And so that opened up an opportunity for him to be disgruntled. And for Suge Knight, who, uh, who actually began to manage Dr. Dre after managing an artist by the name of D.O.C., uh, who introduced Suge to Dr. Dre. And, uh, then I was introduced to Suge shortly after. And, uh, that's how that relationship came. He was managing Dr. Dre and D.O.C. And, uh, we created a company. First, we created Godfather Entertainment. And then out of that birthed Death Row. And so then it was—

Who came up with that name?

I came up with Godfather Entertainment. And based on my situation, you know, I was actually housed on Death Row.

In San Quentin?

Yeah, San Quentin. I wasn't sentenced to Death Row. I was housed there for a short period of time. And I was able to witness young people, younger than myself at the time, being sentenced to death row. And I just, I was profoundly affected by that. And I thought that, you know, so you hear different versions of the name, 'cause it used to be Def, Def like D-E-F, Row. And then we decided to call it Death Row, which that's the company I set up, Death Row Records.

And you had, you guys—

Yeah, I worked with my attorney, at the time that was working with me on my appeal. David Kenner was also part of that partnership that helped assemble that company for me while I was behind bars.

And you guys, I mean, you didn't necessarily— you didn't even shape the genre. You created it a little bit. You know, you had Pac, Snoop. Who else was on there?

I mean, it's— look, people don't realize Death Row didn't have a large roster. It just had an effective one. And also my ex-wife Lydia, she was also a part of the management team that helped facilitate the company in the beginning. So to answer your question, it's like the moment the world heard Snoop Dogg and Dr. Dre's voice together, it was a game changer, you know? It was, you know, Warren G was a part of a group with Snoop 213, and his relationship with Dr. Dre facilitated Snoop Dogg coming into the fold. And, uh, DOC working with, uh, Snoop and helping him, you know, up his game in the rap game. And Dr. Dre looking to create another star, and that relationship, um, forged together just It just made magic. But there was other members, other producers and other artists that was on the label, female, like Rage and Jewel, the Dog Pound. There was, uh, there was, uh, there was just a lot of synergy there, you know. And they all come from different walks of life, and, and it just was that time, you know. Some things was just time, you know, the energy. Pac came later. But, uh, he, uh, brought some of that fire with him too, and it just put Death Row in history books like no other label. Because a lot of people don't really understand that Death Row was the, the little choo-choo train that would, you know, it just, it connected dots to so many different companies that a lot of people don't even realize that.

Like what?

I mean, from Universal to increasing their distribution because of his relationship with Def Row and Interscope. And Warner Brothers almost getting out of the music business because of the way they mishandled their relationship with Def Row and Interscope. I'm just saying, it's so many different aspects to Def Row's existence that most people don't even ponder. They're too busy with the negative side of, and the drama that some of the people that was involved participated in. But they don't think about the enterprising nature of that organization, which is what my focus is. It's like, what was its original intent, and what did it do in the business world that most people don't talk about? The narrative has been focused, narrow, it's been moved to a narrow focus. Hopefully I'll be able to expand that out. You know, me and Snoop Dogg are working together. Snoop Dogg, we acquired Death Row and we're partners and I'm the COO of the new Death Row that I helped create 30-some years ago. So it's exciting to see how that turn out.

What's crazy is you've been around all these people and you actually saw them when they were young. You talked about all these interesting people Denzel, Dre, Snoop. What, uh, what do some of these young guys have in common, you think, that kind of— because they're not just like successful business people, they're culture-changing people. They changed America, they changed the world. What, what, what attributes did they have in common? You know what I'm saying?

Well, let's just back up. Like, like seeing Denzel as the young Denzel and seeing him now He still is consistent in his character. You know, there's certain roles he won't play, and it's the way that he approaches the craft that attracted me to that project, Checkmate, in the first place. He was just always a consummate professional. You know, it's just— He didn't really hang out. You know, he just did what he did, and he took off. But I just watched him, and I watched his work ethic and his projection in the films that he do. For people that look like myself, We're proud, you know? He makes you proud. He makes you proud. And there's not enough of that in our culture, to have people who can represent, you know, just in his craft, you know, just a strong, focused, intriguing individual, you know? Instead of— Like, you used the word intimidating, like, towards me earlier. You know, it's like, sometimes that could be— off-putting for people, and it kills opportunity because people see the book. Remember earlier I talked about judging a book by its cover and not really taking the time to connect to that individual. But Denzel has been really great with that, with the roles that he has played. So it's my honor and pleasure to have known him then and to know him now, that he's a consummate professional even today. He's always, you know, thinking about his thoughts when he does a particular project. And N.W.A. and Death Row is different. Now, it had this—

And by the way, when I said intimidating, in part I meant I'm intimidated because you've got this cool demeanor. I asked you earlier, I said, if you ever say something that you don't want on the pod, just let me know. And you said, I don't say things I don't mean to say. Like, you're just— you got this Clint Eastwood, just like— I'm like, I just— you've got this coolness about you that is, uh, is intimidating, is what I meant. And I'm intimidated by your success.

Well, I appreciate the clarification. Yeah, because, you know, I'm glad you said that. No, and I appreciate that aspect of it. Yeah, I, uh, No, I just, you know, I just think about my thoughts. And so that's why I don't worry. And I appreciate you saying that to me early on, but I'm usually conscious. And if I say it, I meant to say it.

That's what I mean. You're very intentional. And that can be intimidating to people. Because when I get nervous, if there's silence or I'm nervous, I'll say shit that I don't even mean to say. You know what I mean? Yeah. And you don't seem to have that attribute.

I've been in some pretty sticky situations. And you got to say what you mean and mean what you say. It could turn out real bad. Real ugly, you know, if you don't understand your surroundings. And you know, you gotta speak to your audience, you know, whatever that audience may be in real life. I mean, in life, you know, every day, or just in this type of setting, you know, like you never know who could benefit from our conversation today or hesitate on something they're about to do and say, "Hey, you know what? That's some wisdom there. Let me connect to that." Here's a person that done been through it and experienced it on different levels and he might have something to say, you know? So thinking about, I'm thinking about setting up me a podcast, you know? So you talking about your success, I'm trying, I'm gonna be in your rearview mirror for a second, then I'm gonna be.

I have a feeling you're gonna only be in the rearview mirror for a second. But what were you saying about, I think you said NWA, I forget who you said you were talking about.

Right, okay, I already said they were different. In a way that they provided an opportunity for us to speak. Now, some people don't like what we said, but it was different. It was like you had a certain box that Black Americans, and not just Black Americans, Hispanics, different nationalities that are sometimes regulated to a box. And so you don't really get to hear 'em. But through this mechanism called music, called hip-hop, called rap, some people call it gangster rap. I just call it reality rap. Whatever that reality was in us community, being able to speak to it, you know what I'm saying? Like becoming your own CNN or Fox News. You can say this is what's happening, good, bad, or indifference, but this is what's happening in our community. And they were able to communicate that. And so my intention was to elevate, but at the same time, this thing takes on a life of its own. And so, and then you get involved in— Then it becomes a business, and then you have executives and producers who start to see your world even different from how you see it. So later it was altered, but in the beginning, it was fresh and raw and uncut. So people were mirroring in into a community that they knew little about. And so in that aspect, the rappers, the music business was able to shed a light on those communities in a way that it hasn't been shed. And especially when it came to police brutality and a lot of the injustice that was taking place in those communities. It just became a profitable vehicle that allowed us to talk about things in code or in, you know, through lyrics that normally you wouldn't even have access at doing. So.

What's the first song that you heard that you thought, "Oh, Death Row, I'm onto something." Well, it's like I got to hear a lot of it before it came out, so.

It wasn't, I mean, I got to hear the whole album, The Chronic, before it came out. And so, but the first, when I heard the first song that was done on Deep Cover soundtrack, the single that Snoop and Dre did, and I was in prison and a lot of guys was, ah, they wasn't really paying attention to them.

Really?

Until that happened, yeah, because it was N.W.A. and other groups that was out at the time. And so MCA, all these guys that were out, you know, and then we had other local artists, Totty T and Miss Maxx the Spade and Ice-T and all these different guys, you know, doing their solo career as well. But once they heard that song on the radio, 187 on Undercover Cop, and they heard that melodic sound come from Snoop, and those thumping beats from Dre, it was game over. It was game over, you know? And I was like, wow, you know? 'Cause I had tried to let them listen to it before that and they didn't wanna hear it. Then once I got a line around the corner, they wanna hear the tape now, you know? And then it's been like that ever since, you know? And I watched, I was able to watch Dre and Snoop them perform at the Super Bowl. And, uh, I was able to attend the practices, and it was just watching them at work and flashing back to what happened so many years ago. And just to see them become top-notch in their game, because we took it from an independent, uh, type of setting with Rufus and NWA, and Death Row was able to submerge itself into the majors and, and become a major player, which changed the game for a lot of rappers that are quite successful today. So they were—

was it, was it mostly on tapes or CD? It was tapes still when it, when it first started?

Yes, they did. It went to CDs. Yeah.

How much was the cassette back then? So The Chronic came out in '92. What, what year did you go away?

I went away in '88.

Okay, so you're in there for 4 years, um, by the time The Chronic comes out. How much is a cassette back then, you think? CDs in the late '90s were like $18.

What's it, $18 to $23? Yeah, so that— so, so you talking about $9 for a cassette, something like that.

So listen to this. Yes, I didn't, I didn't realize how fast this happened. So I just, I'm looking at the disc— I'm looking at, um, um, Death Row's, uh, work. So the first album was The Chronic, right? That sold like 3 million pretty quickly. Then it was Doggystyle with Snoop. That sold close to 7 million like pretty fast.

Yes.

Then it's All Eyes on Me by Pac— Tupac. And then another Tupac one. I mean, I didn't realize— I didn't realize how fast you came out the gate.

Yeah, it changed the game. I mean, just all of a sudden, it made people go crazy too. So, you know, like money just make you a bigger wherever you are. So, you know, it was like a lot of things changed, you know?

So you're on a $10 cassette tape, how much does Death Row get? Like 30 or 40%, $3 or $4 on $10?

Yeah, that's about right, man. It's not bad. Damn, man.

So I mean, what's it feel like to be in prison and seeing all that money coming in and you're not able to enjoy it? Ah, it would've been better if I was on the streets.

Tell you that. But at the same time, uh, it was good to see, uh, legal activity taking place to make that kind of money. Uh, I come from a world where some people— not that you had to, but we felt that we had to do what we had to do to get what we had to get. And to be able to see a legitimate venture do so well, and, and those opportunities become available to me and so many other people, uh, That's what I kind of locked into. Like, we can go legit, you know? And basically figuring out creative ways, they figured out creative ways to tell stories that could capture the masses. And I just thought that was such a creative, even now when I'm around Snoop And I see him do things so effortlessly, like he just— it's just like it's nothing to him, you know? It's like all these years, he could still remember lyrics that he did 30 years ago like he just composed it seconds ago. And even being around Dr. Dre and Being in his home studio and watching him and his team, uh, you know, conduct full orchestras. It's like, what happened here? You know, like, and they still are coming with music and they're still working with young people and they're still open. It's like, it's no, like, I hear no I'm done. I hear none of that. It's just like every day. And just to be in those environments and just, you know, being recognized by those individuals as somebody that had an integral part in what they did. And me and Snoop is more than most, uh, pretty connected. When it comes to that.

You guys took off right out the gate with Death Row, but it almost seemed like unfortunately you kind of went away as fast as you came. I mean, your work stayed forever, but the entity kind of went south after only like a handful of years, or, you know, was, uh, well, it's back to management again, you know. Yeah. What would you, what would you have done differently managing? And was Suge, was Suge a good manager?

Well, I just say this about Suge. You know, I think, I think Suge was really creative, and, uh, and he was in the right place at the right time, and, and he was able to connect the right people. And so in the beginning, Suge, to me, could have been one of our biggest entrepreneurs had he not imploded, you know. He I know him, you know what I mean? I used to sit with him and I used to talk with him. So I know the side of Suge that most people don't know. And we considered ourselves brothers at one time, you know? It was a close bond. And to see him unravel and to pull away from these opportunities that was surrounding him, it's just a tragedy, you know? Because I know a different Suge. And so, uh, but, uh, yeah, it went away for a little while, but it's back, right? It's back and it's strong. And, uh, people are looking at it different. And so I have nothing negative to say about anybody because I just think that's wasted energy. I just think we all did what we did, uh, and sometimes, uh, I could be wrong about certain things, the next person could be wrong about certain things. It's just how You know, it's how you deal with the present, you know? And how— and can Death Row be seen differently with the new generation? And so we're about to see.

At my last— I started my last company when I was about 25 years old. And we grew. We had dozens of employees. And the average age at one point was like 23, 24, 25. And I was the adult in the room. I don't drink. I don't party. I don't do any drugs. I'm completely sober. But a lot of my people would. And it was a creative business. And whenever they would start drinking and stuff, I would always have to put someone in charge and I'd be like, hey, I gotta get outta here. I don't wanna be around this. Um, and like managing young people, particularly in a party environment and particularly creatives, that's a challenge. You have to like give them the lanes to stay within and let them be free within those lanes. And from an outside perspective, you dealt with that times 10. You know, they weren't just drinking and, um, you know, making bad decisions at the bar. Some, you know, Snoop got, um, he was in trouble for, um, there was some, some, some worse stuff that was happening. And all those guys had issues. What's that like managing creative wild guys?

Well, you know, it's called putting out the fires. But, you know, you spoke about Snoop, he was exonerated from that case too.

So yeah, and I'm not saying he did anything, I'm just saying That's hard managing. I imagine it was challenging managing creative people who also had a wild side or sometimes would be in a circle of getting in trouble regardless if they did it or not. What—

Well, in that particular music or any creative, I just think that you have to take people where they are, you know? And so what happens is if you take away something, it takes away something. And so we all get to elevate in life. And so who you were and what you came from and the condition that— the way you were conditioned to see the world, all of that had something to do with the way that music was made. And so I'm not justifying behavior of any kind. I'm just saying that you start where you start. And if you look at what you're talking about, about some of the conduct that different individuals participated in early on, early on, and you look at them now, these guys are philanthropists. They have charities, they have foundations, they change, they help and motivate and mentor other people in their careers. So yeah, Def Row was all of that, and that's what made it exciting, and that was the energy that it possessed. But it grew, and some people, learned and some people didn't. And some people went up and some people went down. And it's just, it's, you know, you talk about a Shakespearean play. I mean, there is no other, you know. It's just, you know, a lot of people lost their lives and careers and a lot of people became quite wealthy as well. So it's just a combination of it all, you know. So the story is still being told.

Do you think that creating Death Row, is that the thing you're most proud of career-wise?

Well, my career is not over, sir. And so—

So far.

So far. I just think that it's the most impactful. Good, bad. Like I said, good, bad. I can go somewhere and people from all over the world recognize the brand. And you'll be surprised, people from high up in different— parts of this society, classes of society, has told me that when they were in college or whatever they were doing, that that music—

Dude, I listened to it all. I know every word to California Love, to Hit 'Em Up. I mean, I know all these words. I grew up in Missouri as a, you know, as a 12-year-old white kid in Missouri. I don't relate. I mean, I don't experience what they experienced, but like there was a rebellious side of me where I go, I wanna stick it to the man. I want to— and I, I like what I loved about Pac in particular. Here's one of my heroes. I love that he accomplished so much. What, how old was— I think he died in September of what, '96?

Yeah.

Um, he, he was, he was 25. He was a young guy and he had, he had an artful side to him. You know, these old interviews when he's 18, 19, when he's talking about, uh, I think Jada Smith, or, um, and talking about like, you see the love that he has for this woman. He's being artful and he's talking about, like, Brenda had a baby. These songs are like real issues. But then he also got— he got charged with rape and he also was, you know, the whole Hit 'Em Up thing. And with, with all these other guys, he was fighting. And what I love about him is that he was a flawed character who was mostly good and he redeemed himself like he would screw up. And then he was like, he was a rich character and I was drawn to that. I'm like, I got flaws, you know, I had substance abuse issues and I overcame them and I did all this stuff. And I was drawn by people who screwed up and overcame, and then maybe screwed up again and overcame, and had this rebellious, bold part of it. And that's why I was drawn to it, even though I can't relate anything to selling drugs or to— well, I can't relate to any of that.

But even some of those charges, like, you know, with Tupac, we're not here to defend or revisit the case, but we know that a lot of times you have to guard the people that surround you as much as you guard the food that you digest. And sometimes you could be a big-name person, and other people around you could do something that you get it because you're the easy victim. You know, you're the one with the big paycheck, or you're the one with the big name. And sometimes you suffer the consequences of the people that you allow in your circle. So it's important to always be conscious of that because a lot of times— I mean, yeah, he was rebellious, he fought back, he fought against, he was raised, he was conditioned to do so. But at the same time, a lot of times, Sometimes things were put on him that really didn't have nothing to do with him.

But at a young age too. At a young age. At a real young age when you have the spotlight. I mean, he was famous since he was really young. And I admire that. And talented.

He was famous.

And talented.

He was very talented. And like you said, we all flawed. And so it's just, we're human beings. And when you go back and you look at the age, and if you look at somebody that's 25 years age than now, and you be like, wow, this kid accomplished this much and he was able to have this type of mindset and was able to be able to translate that into the music. I mean, come on. I mean, this is just— And everybody that worked with him always tell me about he was a consummate professional. You know, "Hey, we gotta push. We gotta make this happen." And, you know, he was something else.

And he was prolific. He had all those albums at such a young age. He was prolific. So I identified with those characters, even though on paper, there wasn't a lot that I could relate to, but I identify with their— maybe not identified, but I admired them. I was like, dude, guys at young ages changing cultures, and I think it was— that's interesting.

It's funny you saying that because, uh, my thing is I think it's— I think it's infectious. I think the sound, the energy was infectious. So you didn't have to actually come from that particular culture to really identify. It just, it met you where you was. It provided you with some energy that helped you do whatever you were trying to do. It was, I think it was more about the energy that it possessed.

You know, like people, you know who GaryVee is? Gary Vaynerchuk. Right. He's a, you know, people, I watch him sometimes to get amped when I'm having a bad day. And then, but when I was younger, it was, I would listen to Hit 'Em Up or something. It's like, you know what I'm saying? Like it gave me fuel to get back on track. And so I thought it— I mean, I just love that stuff. I also— that's why I like startups. I like people who are just nerds playing on the computer and they, they create Bitcoin or, you know, I'm saying like they create something that sticks it to the man. And even though they're just, you know, in Silicon Valley in an office, whereas you guys were down there and writing music, it's like it's still kind of a rebellious energy of us versus the world that I think is infectious.

I think that it's quite relatable. A lot of the internet tech entrepreneurs, that whole creating something out of nothing, I think it's relatable for people in the hip-hop business. Creating something that was meant for a particular circle that went outside the circle and affected the world. And so same way with these young, enterprising engineers who create something that we all use, like the phones and the different apps. And now that whole world is merging and trying to find its place. So it's quite interesting to see how it all folds out. You know, a lot of big companies have been displaced because of the internet and don't know how to find their place. And it allows for new merging of creative minds to take its place. So I'm excited about what the future holds.

I have a lot of takeaways from talking to you. It's just like, I think that a lot of entrepreneurs like myself, I'm real emotional, you know, like you're into the arts and building businesses is my art. And people who are sometimes artistic I go up and down. I get real sad sometimes. I get real happy. You know, I'm not calm like you are all the time. I'm trying to work on my calmness just to be a little more steady. You know, you were— you experienced a lot harder stuff than I have, and you have remained— you have this cool attitude. I said it's like Clint Eastwood. And so, uh, I think you kind of inspired me to be calmer.

Well, I think with me in particular, you know, I was in a situation where it was quite volatile. And I had a conversation with God, and, uh, I felt that I had reached an understanding. And at one point I said, if I never go home from here and I never live another day, just the fact that I knew who the Creator was, and I was thankful for what God has done for us as to— and what we had to do to even be born. And so the miracle of our birth and how important that is to live up to that. And so you can't help but to become— once you know that each person is considered a miracle, it's just for you to live up to it.

And that's another thing, you got a good attitude. You've got a really good attitude. It makes me— I, I get calm being around you, and I feel more optimistic, uh, and I also, uh You know, I've always been fascinated by these people who are a little mysterious. There's a little more. There's always a little more behind that you don't even know. And they're always got something up their sleeve, some good story or some cool experience that they've had. And I get that vibe from you and it inspires me a little bit. I think it's cool. I also think, you know, last night the Grammys were on and I think it was— they had the— they did like the 50 Years of Hip Hop and the Ghetto Boys were on singing one of their songs. And they got the— they had this one line where they go, real gangsters don't flex nuts because they know they got them. And that's, that's kind of how I feel about you is when you're, when you're, you know, when you're like the guy, you don't got to say you're the guy.

Yeah, yeah, you are who you are. And trust me, when you're in situations like I've been in, you know, It's, you know, you're gonna rise to the top or you're gonna fall to the bottom. You know, it's just, you know, and it was weird being there and being away. And like I said, especially early on, it was really dangerous. But I come from a certain type of community and I conducted myself a certain kind of way and I was able to get through it without a scar. And then later on to be able to be there when Chris and other people like Chris and his wife Beverly was able to create programs where people could really engage and recognize real change in themselves. So I done seen it go from where you can't even, you don't know if you're going to live the next day, to, hey man, you got to get prepared for the outside world. And I'm glad Chris introduced us. Last Mile is a very progressive a program that teaches people how to code while they're in and also prepare them for job opportunities when they get out in the tech world.

So, well, man, I appreciate you doing this. This is awesome. Where, uh, you have an Instagram? Is that where people— is that where you connect with people most?

Well, yeah, the, uh, what is the official Harry O, uh, did you see it? The official Harry O. I think that's what it was.

It looked like it was you posting.

Yeah, yeah.

Michael Harry O. Harris, the official Harry O on Instagram. I mean, you have 41,000 followers. It looks like a picture of you on a private jet or some type of Sprinter van. I don't know what you're doing, smoking a vape.

No, I'm not smoking a vape. It's a vape around me. But yeah, you know, that's, uh, that's the, uh, official, uh Instagram. But why? I'll let you know when I set up the podcast.

I could talk to you all day. Yeah, I like getting to know you better because I want to ask you all these stories, but I want to be respectful, you know, uh, because I look up to you so much. But there's so many stories that you have that, you know, you could talk for hours and hours and hours, I'm sure.

Well, as long as it's an exchange, like I said, I'm gonna be set up to be able to invite you on my show And I want to ask you about some of the enterprising things that you've done. I'm going to be an open book for you to be able to ask me different questions that come up and different things that we're going to be involved in. A lot of things that we're going to launch this year, I can't speak about it as yet, and film projects as well. But next time we talk, some of it will be came to fruition and we'll be able to talk about it.

Hey, and I got stories too. It's just every story you have divided by 10, and that might be as exciting as my stories, but—

You're not going to feed me that. Actually, I'm getting into the podcast world because of what you do and, and people like yourself and the way you bring, uh, insight to, to the business world. So I'm looking forward to being in that lane with you. All right, all right.

I appreciate it, man. You're awesome.

Thank you.

I really look up to you. Thanks for doing that.

Appreciate you. Thank you for the opportunity.