The Viral Marketing Strategy Behind Andrew Tate’s Rise To Fame (#463)
In this episode Sam Parr and Shaan Puri explore the rise of a new masculine sub‑culture they call “Total Man,” exemplified by figures such as Andrew Tate, David Goggins, Joe Rogan, Jocko Willink and Donald Trump. They argue that these influencers use a tactic they label “mob marketing,” deliberately provoking and angering large online audiences to generate viral attention. The hosts dissect how this approach differs from traditional business marketing, citing Nick Huber’s Twitter strategy as a case study. They then map the traits of the Total Man – unapologetic, drama‑free, financially driven, physically extreme, charismatic, and code‑bound – and discuss how this identity is emerging as a reaction against the current “soft” cultural climate that emphasizes empathy, gender‑neutral language, and “woke” policies. Personal anecdotes illustrate the friction this creates inside tech companies (e.g., Twitch’s gender‑pronoun rollout, internal debates over the word “woke”) and the broader media landscape (Andrew Tate’s controversial BBC interview). The conversation shifts to the economics of adult‑content platforms, revealing the hidden infrastructure of OnlyFans (agency‑run accounts, chat‑farm call centers, “girlfriend experience” sales). They also touch on historical and modern private‑security firms, from the 19th‑century Pinkertons to contemporary startups like Deep Sentinel and Bannerman, noting the continuity of “security as a service.” Additional stories illustrate opportunistic entrepreneurship and hidden talent: Jimmy Butler creates a $100 coffee brand inside the NBA bubble, Nikola Jokic’s unlikely rise from a Serbian farm league after a diet overhaul, and a VC’s quote that talent is everywhere but opportunity is not, underscoring the fragile nature of success. The hosts also discuss FloSports, a niche sports‑streaming platform that grew to $100 million by serving underserved audiences, and their encounters with Olympic gold‑medal athletes, reflecting on the mindset of elite performers versus the desire to be the 100,000th most successful person. Throughout, the hosts blend cultural analysis, marketing insight, and personal storytelling to argue that the Total Man movement is both a counter‑cultural pendulum swing and a lucrative brand ecosystem.
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What else is traits of the total man? The total man does not get caught up in BS drama. The total man does not act like a wussy. So when things, you know, like David Goggins is like, I broke my foot. Good. I'm finishing this 100-mile run. Like, and the stories they collect and pride themselves on are not about lifestyle balance, are not about like someone came over to my house the other day and they, she said this to my wife. She goes, it's okay to not be okay. And I go, total man would never say it's okay to not be okay. This is different lifestyles. You're turning into, uh, Sasha Fierce with that.
Trying to calm down. All right, we're live. I don't know who Sasha Fierce is. I bet she's amazing.
It's, uh, Beyoncé. When she goes on stage, she has a stage character she calls Sasha Fierce. She gets into that mode. So no matter how she was before going on stage, she's like, that wasn't— I'm a new person now, and I'm doing my thing that I do with this.
It's hard.
That's hard when you, uh, drink your Topo Chico. You take a big swig of that and you become Sam Fierce.
Where do you want to go from here? You drive.
All right, I got a couple things that I want to talk to you about. So I think, I think this episode is not going to be for this for the faint of heart. I think it's not going to be for the sensitive. I want to talk to you about a concept that I've seen, two concepts that I've seen.
The title of this episode is going to be, I'm not racist, but it's not illegal, right? Like, I'm not, I'm not trying to be sexist, but that's what this episode is going to be called.
Okay. So let me tell you something. So I'm doing this, um, um, workshop that is clearly not a webinar today, right after this with our boy Nick Huber.
And, um, how many people signed up? Can you say?
Take a guess. Take a guess how many people signed up for a webinar.
Hundreds?
5,000 people have signed up for this.
No shit, really?
Your boy pulls weight, I think is one conclusion. But the second conclusion is I saw, I got to see up close and personal how how Nick marketed this thing. So Nick does something I call mob marketing. He basically angers the mob.
Nick who?
Nick Huber. Um, and he's on Twitter. He's @SweatyStartup and he's got a big following, a couple hundred thousand followers. And some people love him and a lot of people hate him. He's one of our only friends. Like we have this group chat of people who all got big on Twitter. He's the only one of us I think that gets like death threats on a daily basis.
Um, dude, his home address gets posted all the time.
People will post his home address. They'll post pictures of his wife and they'll talk about how he's evil. They'll post on LinkedIn separately, not even tagging him the next day being like, ah, I couldn't sleep at night just thinking about how much this bothered me with what this guy said. And he'll say things that definitely ruffle feathers. He does it, I would say it's some overlap. I can't decide, you know, it's hard to get into the mind of like, you know, the Joker, Batman.
What's an example post?
It's like somebody wants to, so he'll be like.
I've never met someone who has purple hair and also has their life together.
He's like, I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but I'm 0 for 8. And so it's like, some people think it's funny. Some people secretly kind of nod along, but they'll stay quiet about it. And then a bunch of people are like, dude, what are you saying here? And they're offended or they're like offended on behalf of somebody else. And then he'll do that again. He'll be like, um, you know, he'll say, I run my company. I have, you know, 20 people that are making $5 an hour in the Philippines and it's the best decision I made. Hiring my international staff has been, you know, an absolute game changer. I'm never hiring entitled Americans who care about A, B, and C again. You know, whatever. And then people are like, you're, what, are you anti-American? And then they're like, wait, $5 an hour in the Philippines? Do you feel good taking advantage of this labor? And he's like, well, you know, I'm paying them double what they were making before this. Otherwise they wouldn't take this job. I'm not forcing anyone into anything, but okay. If that, if you want to protect these people who like this job, okay, sure.
Um, but the point is, is he posts stuff that he knows, he knows ruffles feathers.
He takes a very polarizing approach to it. And I would say in our world, in the business world, this is not common. Um, Elon kind of does it, but not really. And he's the only, he's the only one I could think of, uh, that's like, maybe there's a bunch of other examples, but on the, on the business side, it's not that common. And the political side, you see it, right? Trump on the political side uses this.
Trump did it before he was doing it as a business person.
Well, I think it was, I don't know, maybe it was because his whole business career was kind of pre-social media. So it's hard to say, right? Like, I think he always was this guy, but you know, when you do it in dinner parties, it's very different than doing it out loud on Twitter where anybody anywhere in the world can follow you and hate you. Tucker Carlson is like this. All of the like kind of media pundits that get really big, like Hannity and whatever, they take a very polarizing view on things. Ben Shapiro, right? And then you have Andrew Tate. And this kind of leads me into a, so first I kind of noticed this mob marketing tactic. I was like, this is very effective. I don't know if I would want to do it. It sounds like it, you know, is a lot of like kind of firefighting. Um, and I've been able to make it work without doing it. So I don't, I don't really intend to go do this, but it is one tactic that does work. The, the other thing that I've noticed with this is it ties into this idea I call Total Man. And I think Total Man is a new lifestyle that is popping up and I'd like to tell you about it. So here's the idea with Total Man.
Is this a trademark, uh, phrase?
I tried to buy the domain. It's taken. I'd like to own this domain. And I think that this is going to be, it's either already is or going to be the next big kind of lifestyle brand trend is whoever owns this total man thing. I think Andrew Tate kind of did it. So I'm a little bit late to the, to the game here. But basically, if you look at the following individuals, David Goggins, Joe Rogan, Jocko Willink, Andrew Tate. Donald Trump, even Nick Huber to an extent. They all subscribe to this like total man lifestyle. What is the total man lifestyle?
So here, did I get, did I get left off that bullet point list?
You, you are, you're like half of them. Um, like I think you, I think you definitely, you're not total man, you're half man, but you might be 2% milk. Yeah. You might be trying to get to that, to that level. Okay. So here's, so my trainer even said this, he's like, he's like, I'm just trying to I want to live the quality, like I want to be a quality man and I want to have this lifestyle. And I thought, quality man, that's a good phrase. And I thought, I just said, let me just sharpen that a little bit. Total man. I said, what do you mean by that? He goes, he's like, I just want to have my finances like set. I want to have, I want to be wealthy. I want to, I want to be fit. Like I don't want to be out of shape. I don't think it's cool to be out of shape. I'm going to push myself to be in phenomenal shape. And you know, I found some other characteristics that he didn't say these, but basically somebody who's unapologetic. So you see this with Nick when the mob comes at him, he never apologizes or backs down. He pushes back. He can— Trump does the same thing. Andrew Tate does the same thing. They double down instead of backpedaling. So they're unapologetic. Why? Because they live by a code. I think you do that too. They live by a code. It's an internal code and the internal code can be a little bit flawed. Like Andrew Tate says some wild stuff, but the fact that they have a code is actually quite admirable. I think people are attracted to somebody with a code because they themselves don't have a code. And so you, it's sort of like life is easier when you're just around people who live by their code. What else is traits of the total man? The total man does not get caught up in BS drama. The total man does not act like a wussy. So when things, you know, if it like David Goggins is like, I broke my foot. Good. I'm finishing this 100-mile run. Like, and the stories they collect and pride themselves on are not about lifestyle balance, are not about— like, someone came over to my house the other day and they— she said this to my wife. She goes, it's okay to not be okay. And I go, total man would never say it's okay to not be okay. This is different lifestyles, right? I think there's one lifestyle. And so let me keep going. He knows what he wants out of life and then he has it. So it doesn't matter if what you want is a Bugatti and, uh, you know, uh, 3 model girlfriends. What matters is that you wanted it and you sort of whatever, quote unquote, manifested it. I think that's another trait of the, of these people that do this total man lifestyle. And lastly, they have strong hobbies. Joe Rogan goes bow hunting. Uh, you know, Goggins does pull-ups for fun. Uh, these people have strong hobbies and lastly, they are charismatic and they care about being charismatic. So to me, I think that you're going to see a bunch of mega influencers and a bunch of brands being built, like in the same way that there's like right-wing conservative, like that became a lifestyle and an identity. And then a bunch of brands got built for that population. I think you're going to see a bunch of people, you're already seeing it with Andrew Tate and others, David Goggins and others that are trying to do this total man lifestyle. And then build a bunch of products for other guys who want to be in this, want, want to be a part of this religion. And I think about this and this isn't anything, this isn't anything new.
I'm reading like the biography of Arnold Schwarzenegger right now.
And, but you know, he like something he would be in the Church of the Total Man would do is go read Arnold Schwarzenegger biography for fun.
Yeah. Well, he's, he's an eclectic person, but he was, uh, you know, he was selling workout plans and things like that because people are like, Oh, you're on the, he would, he would do these photo shoots in fitness magazines of him holding a surfboard on the beach in LA. And he, in the biography, he's like, I've never surfed in my life. Like I could barely swim. Look at me. Like, have you seen a bulldog swim? Like it doesn't happen a lot. And, uh, like, he's like, you know, I don't really like, I'm not like that, but people wanted to look like him. They wanted to be around these hot girls. They wanted to live in LA and he would sell these plates. So of course, this isn't anything new. We're just seeing a different generation.
Here's what I think is new. I have this belief that like almost everything that becomes a big trend is in response to the world being a certain status quo in the other way. It's a pendulum that swings. And so you had an era where it was like the world was very conventional and traditional and blah, blah, blah. And then you start to see a bunch of unconventional, untraditional things. And this is people having different genders and pronouns and purple hair and all this stuff. And you see a big, a big movement in that direction. And then you see, um, like I would say therapy and empathy and all these words have never been more popular and amongst men and women. Um, and I think in response to that, I think there's an undercurrent of people who feel like it's all too soft. The world's getting too soft. We need hard men. We need, we need the total man. And, and so here's how I know it works. Everything I described. Is the opposite of toxic masculinity. It is basically, uh, being a man became something that got labeled as toxic masculinity. And now I think there's a bunch of people trying to take that back and be like, hell no, we embrace masculinity. And so that's what I see happening is people basically flipping that on its head and be like, I'm not, I'm not going to apologize for being manly. In fact, I'm going to double down on it. And then there's this wave of people who have been craving something like that. And I'll give you the example. I remember when Snapchat came out and I underestimated Snapchat at first. I thought, oh, disappearing photos for kids. And is this just for, you know, bleep pics? Like, you know, what, what is this? Is this, this is going to be a real deal? What I underestimated was that Snapchat was the response. The pendulum had swung at when Snapchat came out. Facebook was basically at the peak of its powers. or had like sort of like was, was, uh, Facebook and Instagram were like the top and what Facebook and Instagram were, were every photo is public. Every photo is permanent. Every photo looks good and just trying to make you look, look cool. And what was Snapchat? It was the exact opposite. It was every photo is private. Every photo is impermanent and it lets the, because of that, you get to be silly. You get to let your hair down. You get to just send goofy pictures instead of pictures that make you look cool. And so that it, there, to me, the need for a product like Snapchat only be, only came out because the world had got so Instagramified, so Facebookified where everything was public, permanent, and, uh, and, and pretty. And so I think that you see this anytime you notice that the world goes in one direction, you can sort of anticipate that 2 or 3 years later, the counterculture response is going to be there. The opposite is going to become popular. And so, uh, this is like a way for me to get, like, when I think about how to be ahead of the curve on trends, I start to think about what, what feels dominant today. And in 3 years, what would be the opposite? Because I think there's going to be an emergence of that counterculture. What do you think of this? Am I just, am I just doing fake astrology there trying to piece things together?
Uh, no, your theory I think is, is exactly right. You know, there's been things that I've been interested in, like, um, have you heard of the, the Lite Phone? It's L-I-T-E Phone.
Yep. I've I looked into buying one because I crave that. Why? Because we're so— well, I guess explain what it is, but it's like we're so heavy on our phones.
It's like a $300 phone, but it has the screen of a Kindle. So no colors. And I think you can only download— I think you can only do Spot— I think it's just Spotify. I think it's just Google Maps and then phone calling. And you might be able to text, but you can only text like a Nokia. So you have to like type in like Yeah, in order to do C, you got to hit 1 3 times. And it came out like maybe 10 years ago at this point, 8 years ago, and it didn't really hit right away, but it's getting more and more and more popular. Another one that I've been preaching about forever, and it hasn't entirely taken off yet, is DuckDuckGo. So DuckDuckGo is a search engine. It's just like Google, but it's, uh, you can't be tracked. And so if you Google DuckDuckGo, Internet searches, they actually have a graph and you can see like the number of searches per day and it's growing exponentially. Right. Um, yeah. So your theory I think is totally right.
I think anybody who's into fashion or whatever is going to know this thing and be like, yeah, duh. Like when everything goes to skinny jeans, guess what's, guess what's coming back next? Which is bell bottoms and whatever the, you know, the baggy stuff, the high-waisted loose stuff or whatever. Um, but you have an issue.
Here's a, here's a flaw with this premise. This particular one. It's not a flaw. You're stuck in this California bubble, man. You gotta, you gotta come to where I'm from in Missouri. I think like, you know, this is, this has been gaining momentum now for a little while. I think the difference is, is that, um, California types, you know, the people who like, if, if, if I'm from like a place that's generally right of center, now the left of center people, I think are also craving a bit more than before.
Right.
Before it was like kind of cringy guys. Um, and then they start evolving a little bit to being a little bit more holistic. And so, for example, do you know who Andy Frisella is?
Yes.
So he's in our world in that technically we compete against him in the podcast charts, but I had no idea who he was, but he was the top. He was the, he's the number one business podcast typically in the charts each week. And he talks a ton about like politics and stuff. And I believe he's right of center, but it's, that's mostly a stereotype of just the way he looks and some of the phrasing that he uses. His podcast used to be called the MFN CEO.
Right.
And then I started listening to him and I'm like, oh, you're way more eclectic than I originally judged you for. And you're actually really interesting. And I think that that's what's happening is that there's people who don't entirely fit into the previous bubble of whatever I would stereotype these guys as being, which is like lower IQ, big ass meatheads. And it's like, oh no, you're actually way more thoughtful than I thought. Totally.
Uh, yeah, I think that's, that's totally true. Um, so yeah, I think this, uh, I'm keeping an eye on this and I think that they've been very successful. Like David Goggins is kind of like stunningly popular now. And, um, same thing with Andrew Tate.
Well, so is Jaco.
You saw Andrew Tate came out of prison and did an interview. Did you see this interview on BBC?
Just, it ended mid-interview, didn't it?
Well, there's a, the full thing got posted on like Rumble or something like that.
Like what happened? Yeah, no, I didn't watch it. Uh, I mean, it's kind of a headache. The thing about him is like. He started out, like, if you listen to his messages, like, maybe 70% is like good. Like, you know, a man is someone who exercises, they get what they want. But then like, there's like 30% where I'm like, ah, bro, like, I don't want to be associated with that. Like that, you crossed the line there. But, uh, yeah, some of the stuff he says is awesome.
So for example, yeah, the, the, the BBC. So it's a woman. She comes into his home and she's interviewing him. And, uh, she goes, you are, you know, um, How can you say these things that are, you know, toxic and dangerous and whatever? You've been named by the UK, um, commission, uh, committee of whatever as the most dangerous man in the United Kingdom. You— he's like, dangerous man in the United Kingdom? He's like, he's like, he's like, what am I preaching that, that is so dangerous? He's like, he's like, I don't— I'm Muslim. I don't drink. I don't do drugs. I tell people don't drink, don't do drugs. I say work out. I say work hard. Get rich, um, and, you know, like, like build yourself into a quality individual who lives by code. And he's like, you know, that's what I, that's what I preach. What is dangerous about that? And she's like, well, you said on an interview that, um, if your wife does OnlyFans, you're entitled to half her earnings or whatever. Um, or like that, you know, if your wife is your wife, that she is your, your property as a man or whatever. And he's like, he's like, did you listen to the actual interview? And she's like, you said that, that is, that's what you said. He goes, yes, but what's the context of the interview? Context of the interview is, uh, or the context of the podcast is I'm— me and several women are on a podcast. We're joking around because one woman says, um, if my man owns a car and I'm dating him, that's my car. I own that property too. And then he countered as a joke. He's like, he's like, I basically as a joke countered, if I'm dating a girl and she has an OnlyFans, then I, I get half of that too. And, uh, he's, he's like, well, the same logic, right? And he's like, so that's what I said. And she's like, so you're saying it's a joke? He's like, yeah, I'm saying you're taking it completely out of context. And he's like, you know, he, he's kind of like trying to defend himself and they're arguing back and forth. And then he's like, he asked her a question and she's like, no, I'm asking the questions here. He goes, no, no, no, you're in my house. I invited you here. I'm doing you the favor. You know how you're, you've been begging me for interviews and, uh, I, I let you in here. We are equals. Uh, there, you do not hold any authority over me. We are equals. If I ask you a question, you, you can choose to answer. If you ask me a question, I don't have to answer either. You know, that's how this is going to be. It's a conversation. And she like was like rejecting that premise. And then you hear their handlers in the background that are all like getting really nervous about how the whole thing's going. Cause it's like going off the rails.
Um, the BBC handler or the Tate handler? Cause they, he, he has them. Yeah.
He has people who are like, you know, I wouldn't say maybe handlers, not the right word, but like, you know, he has this like kind of whatever PR type people that were like, he's answered the question already. Like why, like you repeated the same question 6 times. Like just move on to the next thing. Like, wait, you're stuck here. Like. He's answered it. He's not going to answer it any differently. He's answered it 5 times now. Just move on to the next question. And so they were like, you could hear these voices in the background in the unedited version. Like even they take a break. They're like, hold on, we got to, the camera, camera died. We got to reset the batteries. Hold on. And then you could see what happens in the break. She like immediately is like, no, just make eye contact. She's like looking at her notes only.
And doesn't he go like, good interview.
And his aunt was like, we don't have to do this. It's fine. It's fine. No, this is good. Actually, I want people to see how this goes. He's like, I want people to see her, uh, like, you know, how, how the mainstream media, how they don't, they don't do their research. They lie, blah, blah, blah. And he's got his like spiel, but during the break, there's like maximum tension. It's like, that's actually probably the most interesting part of the whole interview.
So I, uh, I'm not con— I'm me personally. I'm not convinced I'm willing to sign up for that. I don't want to, I'm not, I don't want to deal with that headache.
Agreed.
I'm willing to make sacrifices to some parts, not of my code, it's just that my code is like not that hardcore, maybe is the right way to put it. But I've met a lot of people who run companies that, you know, that are worth hundreds of millions and some that are actually worth billions. And I'll see them like do certain things that are common now about like, uh, uh, like they use phrases like bring your whole self to work, which is like kind of like a funny controversial statement to some people because some people are like, No, just bring your work self to work. Like we don't, we don't need all this other stuff. Yeah. Or no, there's like a crew and then there's like, they'll do like certain things that are typically like, uh, that you see a lot of that are categorized as woke. And I'm like, dude, I know you don't believe that. And I see them say, they'll say things privately, like, yeah, but I want to win. And this is the game I have to play in order to like hire all these people. And I don't know how I feel about that. When I hear about that, I'm like, I had a funny experience with this.
So when we got acquired by Twitch, now in a 2,000-person organization and Twitch, literally, I think, you know, 5% of the staff has like, you know, purple hair. Like, and I don't mean that as a knock. I just mean like, we're in San Francisco. We are the stereotype of when people talk about like, kind of like left-leaning social media companies. Like people think this about Twitter or Facebook. I would say Twitch is probably more like that than in terms of the staff. So I'm in a meeting. And I joined like 3 minutes late as I do, as you know, that I tend to be 3 minutes late every time. And there's a presentation on the screen. I don't really understand what's going on. I'm like, what is this presentation about? And I Slack somebody and they're like, oh, it's like a, you know, just kind of like updating our copywriting, whatever. I'm like, oh, copywriting. I love copywriting. What are we talking about? And it was talking about like how we use genders from now on. It's like, we only say they. And then, and then they were talking about, uh, women. They're like, we don't say women. We say, um, and they spelled this word W-O-M-X-N. And I was like, I was like, how do you even say that? What is it? Womxn? I don't know. What is that? Or is it just women? Like, what do you say for that? And like, this is now how we say this. And I was like, I was like, what does that mean? Like, sorry, dumb question. But like, well, like, what is it? Who's offended? And what does this mean? It was like, oh, this is inclusive of like people who were maybe not biologically born women, but now. Are women. And so this is like the inclusive term. And I was like, so I was like, how do you say this? And like, all of a sudden I could see, I could feel like a bunch of heat on me. Like, why are you asking all these questions? And like, there's kind of an undercurrent in the way I'm asking the questions, which is sort of like, is this, are you sure? Like, that's kind of all I was, I was like, I was like, wow, this is overnight. We're just changing. Like, this is, we don't say that. And now we say this, like, this is a pretty big change. No. And, um, And so I'm hearing this and I'm like, okay, I guess, you know, that's cool. And, um, and then they, the funny thing is the company then tweeted out for International Women's Day. They tweeted out International Womexan's Day or whatever, right? Like they tweeted it out like that. And then they got tons of blowback from the transgender, like the LGBTQ community being like, don't, don't use that phrase. Just call us women. Why are you trying to make us seem different? And I was like, oh my God, that backfired. Like their attempt to, to like, you know, placate actually backfired. And I was like, wow, this is really. Like, this is, there's a bunch of landmines. Like, you don't even know.
But then what if the executive, were you like, hey, executive team, what are you thinking?
You can't ask that. But I was like, I said it in a different way. I said, uh, we were talking about like, you know, questions. I was like, um, Amazon has this thing where when you are doing your yearly planning, one of their questions is what are the dogs that are not barking yet? And it's from this old Sherlock Holmes story of like a crime occurs in a house. There's a break-in and there's no clues and Sherlock can't figure it out. And he figures it out because he's like, um, well, the dog was here, right? So surely the neighbor heard the dog. And they're like, no, the dog didn't bark. And he's like, ah, that's it. That's the clue, Watson. And he's like, what? He's like, if the dog didn't bark, it's because he knows who the intruder was. That means this was an inside job. And so he figures out who it was because there was the dog not barking. So they have this thing in Amazon, which is when you're doing your annual planning, they say, what are your dogs not barking? Basically like, what are you not hearing that is actually telling you something? Or it's a different way of saying like, what is something that's not being said out loud, but could signal something that's worth talking about? And so I said, I go, I think we should decide how woke we're going to be. And like, where, like, is there a line? And what does that mean? And who do we want to, like, we should say it out loud what we want to be. And then literally, like, my Slack just blew up of like DMs being like, Like abort, don't, don't say this. Don't like, don't bring this up. Like, um, what are you saying, dude? Like, this is like, you know, uh, a suicide mission. And one girl goes, she goes, she goes, um, I didn't appreciate that. We don't use the word woke anymore. And I go, I go, we, who, like, there's a company policy. You can't use the word woke. I was like, I didn't even mean it as an insult. Like, I thought it's just like a, yeah. Cause at the time it really wasn't, this was many years. This is like 4 years ago or 5 years ago now. Woke was, woke became a little bit more derogatory over time. Uh, at first it was stay woke. It was like a, the kids were saying it as like, yo, you, if you're not, you're not like awake to what's really going on.
Dude, I think Twitter had t-shirts that said stay woke.
Yeah, it was like a positive thing and then it turned into a criticism later. So it was somewhere in the middle of that and I was like, we should decide woke. And she's like, we don't use the word woke anymore. So I, you know, I appreciate if you don't do that. I go, who's we? Is there a committee that decides what words we can say? Like, that sounds pretty non-woke to me. And, uh, and she links me like a Vox article. I'm like, Oh, you read this Vox article? You decided that I can't say this? And I was like, oh, this is just too much for me. And I was like, there's only one piece of advice that I needed. And it was a piece of advice I got on this podcast from a guy very early on, Daniel Gross. He's a super smart guy. He got acquired by Apple. And I go, what was that like in that acquisition? You were there for 3 years. What, what was the best advice you got about navigating that? And he goes, don't give yourself brain damage. And I go, what? And he goes, Yeah, when you get acquired, there's a really tempting thing as an entrepreneur to like, I'm going to, I see things that are wrong in this organization or that I want to be a challenger voice and not just like another, another person who just follows, you know, the company line. And I'm going to challenge, you know, maybe our innovation cycle or our policies or anything. I'm going to, I'm going to be the one who brings change. He goes, it's just brain damage. Don't, don't try it. And I was like, oh, I'm doing it. I'm giving myself brain damage.
How'd the woke story end?
It ended with that one person telling me that we can't say, say these words anymore, which was backed up by nothing. And I was like, oh cool. So you read this article and so you decided that I am not allowed to ask this question again. Gotcha. Just clarifying. Great. Uh, thank you. You know, whatever head of important thing inside the company, like, yeah, I'm glad that you're, uh, I'm glad this is how this, this, this works.
And you know what, do you think without calling out Well, Emmett is the CEO and he seems, I don't know him, but he seems like an awesome guy. What, I don't know if you can answer this without calling him out, but what do you think he thinks or someone like him? Can I say someone like him?
Someone in his position, someone in his position with his name and face. What would they say? Yeah.
I don't know.
I can't speak for him, but I guess my impression of it was basically, I think he's mostly shielded from this stuff. So like, I don't think most of this gets to his plate. And that by the time it does, he's a total man.
He doesn't care about drama.
I think he's like a Renaissance man. He's a little different. I think two things. I think one, I think he's mostly just like, he, I think he's gotten a lot of CEO coaching to where he doesn't let his first reaction be his response. So like something comes up. And now instead of reacting, he responds and he usually responds with a question and he'll just ask them tons of questions. And he's like, I'm in the spirit of literally understanding what you're saying and trying to figure this out. Tell me, what does that word mean? Like, and they'll be like, it just, I mean, it means inclusive. It means that he's like, well, like, no, like, can you please like use an example or can you, uh, like from, can you explain that from like, you know, base principles? Like, what are you talking about? Where, what are the boundary lines? Like, let's make sure we're all talking about the same thing. And, uh, he does like kind of like a Socratic method where he would, he would end up just like fatiguing out anybody who wanted to bring something up and he would get his understanding of it and then decide, is this important or not? But, um, I think most people are sort of intimidated by him. And then in the process of trying to debate him on something would sort of like, nobody could really, uh, very few people in the company could really like hold up to any debate or any scrutiny from him in, in a conversation. I saw it just many, many times. And he was trying to dial that down because he knows that that's like, you know, already he's in a position of authority. Plus he's like a, you know, world-class debater who's got this like wide breadth of knowledge to like pull from. So he already knows he's like, you know, if he does that, he's just going to shut people down. So he tries not to do that. But I saw, you know, most people didn't want to bring it up to him.
Dude, I just avoid all of this shit. Like, I can't stand this stuff. And it's just, I just don't care. Is it really what it is?
I guarantee it's the worst part of the job for Zuckerberg or Nam-Aid or anybody who runs these networks. It's like the 1% of trust and safety or like angry people that's constantly angry about something. That's got to be the worst part of the job. That's not why they created these networks is to like be public policymaker in their own like kingdom.
But it is amazing how they get around it because I could, I could tell Zuck doesn't care about that stuff, but he still plays the game and Zuck's the man. He's never had a controversy. He's never done anything. Not a lot of these guys haven't, like they've done pretty good with navigating some of these topics. And I'm amazed that they don't react by saying, oh, you guys want to form this union or you want to like protest over this? You're all fired. Like, this is a machine. You know, we don't need this. We don't need this. This is a machine that they put up there.
Well, that happened to the Milkshake guy, right? Like, didn't he say something in an email, which is like, you know, let's not do it this way. And then he got fired from his own company.
What happened? I don't know what happened.
He wrote an email to the staff about a trend he noticed in the workforce, which was new hires had to introduce themselves using their preferred pronouns. He says, this is completely unnecessary for a woman who is clearly a woman to tell us that her pronouns are she and her, and a man who's clearly a man to tell us that his pronouns are he and him. Um, he understands that the practice is rooted in kindness, but he says in the long run, this approach does more harm than good because you're forcing people to behave a certain way, and that's the opposite of inclusion. Um, and then And so then, uh, he says, first, there's a tiny number of people at, uh, well, he says peeps, so, you know, already that's a fireable offense. It's a tiny number of peeps at MailChimp who would consider themselves transgender, forcing either with orders or guilt the other 1,390 other peeps to adopt a new communication paradigm that humanity has never had to use in our 300,000-year existence and our 150,000 years of spoken language. In order to make things slightly more comfortable for an extremely small group of peeps is completely illogical. Um, so then he got fired.
It was probably for the peeps thing, to be honest. Like, Intuit, whoever bought the company, was like, look, man, we need to talk.
Yeah.
He's like, but I didn't mean to hurt the trans people. He goes, what? No, look, we need to talk about this peep thing.
Yeah. He stepped down as CEO shortly after. And, uh, voluntarily, uh, and then also somebody came out, was like, by the way, there's no policy that says they have to do that. It's like, shit.
This data is wrong every freaking time. Have you heard of HubSpot? HubSpot is a CRM platform where everything is fully integrated. Whoa, I can see the client's whole history— calls, support tickets, emails—
and here's a task from 3 days ago. I totally HubSpot.
Grow better. We, um, one time at The Hustle, we wrote an article on Sasha Gray. Sasha Gray used to be like this famous porn star, and we wrote about how she was trying to change her image around to not be that. And every single night at like midnight our time, I would get all this traffic from Japan because I guess that was morning time in Japan. It was all people searching for Sasha Gray and they were finding our article.
Yeah.
And I, found out that she had hired this company called like reputation.com to like boost that article. So it showed up first. So we were getting all these people searching Sasha Grey XXX and they didn't get what they wanted to, but whatever.
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Dude, I didn't realize, I guess I realized it, but someone posted this infographic on Twitter of the biggest websites. And it was like, Google was just like the largest. It was like bigger than everything combined. But then like, I think 4 of the top 10 were porn sites. And, uh, it's, it's wild. I mean, imagine working at one of those companies. Can you imagine that? What would that be like just sitting in the office? It's weird.
I've imagined it many times. No, um, so I've, I've been, I can't talk about these, but I've been, I've had very interesting conversations with a few people that own OnlyFans-based businesses recently. And they're absolutely crushing it to the point where I can't talk about it because I would be kind of like, it's like, uh, do you mean, do you mean the, the stars or like the ancillary things? All, uh, most, I'm talking about the ancillary things right now, but they're all crushing it. The platform is crushing it. The stars are crushing it. And the, the cottage businesses that get built around this to help this, to be a part of that ecosystem, but they're doing so well that I sort of, if I talked about them, I would be coming between them and like millions of dollars. People, a lot of people would want to compete with the strategies that they're doing. But I will say one thing that I've learned that was pretty interesting. So I always assumed that OnlyFans was popular because, um, you're sending like, I don't know, nude pics or videos to guys. And that's like the thing, that's what they're paying for. And I was always a little curious. I was like, porn's like free on the internet. Why would you pay for this? Like, there must be something. I don't know. And I just kind of wrote it off as that. Do you know why they make so much money? Do you know what the actual moneymaker is inside of a, of an OnlyFans account when these girls say that they're making like a million dollars a month? You know what actually drives that?
I've never, I've never subscribed to one. I guess you probably have subscribed to a few now that you're like researching it, but I've never subscribed to one.
You know, I'm a married man and I did not do that, but you didn't need to because I talked to the people who like run, they like run the accounts or whatever, like What a lot of people don't realize is that a lot of these accounts are just, they're bought. So like, uh, a girl has a public persona. She does an OnlyFans. She kind of gets exhausted running the thing because it's like a lot and it's like emotionally exhausting dealing with all these guys and, uh, whatever. So she's, uh, so somebody come approaches her and says, we'll buy your account for, um, you know, I'll give you $200,000 right now for your OnlyFans account. And then I'll give you, you know, X percent of the profits and I'll run it. You just have to put pictures in a Dropbox folder. And, uh, you give me good content and I will give you money and that's how it goes. And then, uh, and so what, what, what actually people, so I was like, why do people pay for these pictures and videos? Like, again, porn's free. That's like one of the rules of the internet is porn is free. Uh, so what, what do people really want? And it turns out that they want like the girlfriend experience. And so the money is made not through the content. But through the chatting and that the chatting has all kinds of weird things.
Like, is it one group chat or individuals?
Oh, individuals. And so they hire farms of chatters. So basically what OnlyFans is built off of, like a lot of the money is made through is giant, like customer support, you know, uh, call centers, uh, essentially in the Philippines talking to, you know, it's basically like dudes in the Philippines talking to dudes in the US pretending to be the girl. And so they. It's just like they have this army of chatters that will chat with these guys and tease them and flirt with them and then upsell them and boom, cha-ching, got the sale there. And they're like salespeople. They, they gotta, they get commissions and all this stuff. It's insane. And what, but how within that, okay, so what are the highest ticket items? What's the, you know, if this was the, the, the county fair, what's that top stuffed, stuffed animal at the top? And it's basically like the number one is pretend to be my girlfriend for like, you know, a month. And it's like, text me as if you're my girlfriend. And it's like, that's the, that's like the top prize. But there's other weird stuff underneath. Weird. So weird that I can't even say this. This is a family show. And so I can't even say some of the weird stuff that they want, but it's not what you would think. It's not like super crude.
Is it just like sending, sending pictures back and forth?
Like, I'll give you one example. One example is the guy who's the customer sending pictures to the OnlyFans person. Asking for their opinion or rating of them. And that's like the service that they pay for. And so there's stuff. And, and I guess like the two things stood out. One is it's like the free market at work, baby. It's like you, you can really see what humans are all about when you talk to this, to these people. Because it's like, man, people are into all kinds of crazy stuff. These are like their real desires. And these are desires they wouldn't admit. And I bet a bunch of these people are, you know, They're the person, they're doctors and they're the CEOs and they're other people. Like, you know, human desires got revealed. They were always there and they got revealed because OnlyFans gave a better avenue to realize those desires, which is kind of crazy to me. The second thing is I think it's wild how much money is being made in this space. And my reaction to it is not kind of like, like I think you were asking what's your reaction to No, my, my question is not who cares if it exists.
My question is, uh, you getting involved into it. What, how does it make you feel and how does it make your wife feel? And are you like, well, I'm not involved in it. Well, okay. You're, you're, you're contemplating.
I'm learning. I'm talking to these people because I find it fascinating. Uh, I have contemplated investing in some of these because I was like, I would not want to operate this, but yo, if you're, if you're already down there in the sewer, Let me know if you got something. I'm gonna hand it up here. You know, like I, I will, I will provide resources.
Dude, you realize how hypocritical— that's so hypocritical.
Why is that hypocritical? I'm saying I don't personally, I would not personally enjoy operating this. I, I also would not like operating a deli or an ice cream shop or whatever, but I'll go, I'll go eat a scoop. What's the problem with that? If they need resources, they need capital or they need advice, I'll give them those things. I don't want to operate. So to me, that's fine. Um, my wife, I have—
it's also hypocritical of me, by the way, if I consume porn and to also shit on it. So I'm not acting like I'm whole. I'm not acting as though I'm holier than thou, but it is a conundrum.
I told my wife, by the way, I was like, hey, I'm thinking about this. And she just goes, okay, don't tell me, but if it makes money, that's fine. That's great. Cool. Um, yeah, I would also say that it's really funny. Uh, I find it like amusing the way that the ecosystem works where it's like what you think it is, is some woman with an account who's putting up content and guys want that. And then she's chatting with them. And it's like, actually, there's like a whole other thing. There's agencies that control the accounts. The agencies are 90% dudes. Uh, the chatters are like, you know, these call centers in India and the Philippines. And, um, I find it amusing. I'm like, that's hilarious that that's what this like, that that's how this like evolved. And I find that—
Dude, I always, I always get their reels on Instagram at night in bed. So like, I try not to keep my phone, uh, so I, uh, like if I'm scrolling on my phone at like 10 PM, it's normally like ripped guys and dogs in the day. And then even in the evening, it's hot girls that pop up on my reel or, you know, like when you're scrolling through your Instagram and I'm like, wait, what is this? And then you click on their profile and it links to a Linktree, which goes to—
Well, the funny thing is you see it because what they, one of their main growth tactics is they pay meme accounts. So accounts that just post funny jokes 99% of the time. The way that those accounts make money is OnlyFans people will pay a lot of money to get posted one time at night on those accounts, and then you can delete it in the morning. Um, and that's how they grow their, their own social followings. And so, uh, through these meme distribution channels. And so that's a funny part of it. But anyways, I don't even know, didn't plan to talk about this one, but that's a funny little tangent.
So, all right, listen, I don't know if this actually is going to interest you. But I'm going to try to make this interesting because anything that uses the H word, history, you're not into, right? That's not— but the total man should understand history because history—
he actually, listen, he actually, you know, has been alive through all of history. It's like a dosekis, man.
So I'm reading this book. It's called like Killers of the Flower Moon. It's basically about the 1920s Osage Indians. It was Native Americans. They were given this plot of land when they were like, you know, like The government was like, hey, you know, we're taking this shit over. Here's your plot of land. Turns out it sat on all this oil. And so they all got rich and white people take advantage of them and kill them and to steal their money. And I was reading this book and they keep talking about the Pinkertons. Have you heard of the Pinkertons?
Never.
So they were like, kept talking. I was like, why don't they go to the police? And they're hiring these guys called the Pinkertons. So Pinkertons, it was basically a guy named Alan Pinkerton. He started this company in 1950. And he started it because he was walking through the woods one day and he saw a bunch of like counterfeiters and he got curious. So he starts watching them and he starts figuring out what they're doing. And then he calls the police on them and they're like, well, we can't really solve this. He goes, give me a few weeks. I'm going to, I'll, I'll keep an eye on them. And I think I can figure out what they're doing, where they're going, and I'll be your detective. He does that and they get arrested and he's like, I love doing this. This is very fun. And so he keeps doing it and it starts like a small, like little mom and pop business where he goes to other people and he goes, hey, do you want me to help you solve this crime? Just pay me a little little bit of money and I'll go and, I'll go and do it and we'll report it to the police and we'll give them all the evidence that they need. So he does this for a handful of years and eventually he works his way up to like the, uh, the government, American government is paying him money and it gets to the point where his people, this is pre Secret Service, his people, uh, protect Abe Lincoln. So we didn't have the Secret Service back then. Secret Service was invented after Abe Lincoln got shot.
Didn't do a great job. I'd say.
Yeah. She can't win them all.
It turns out.
Yeah.
Can't win them all.
Can't win them all. It turns out.
Yeah.
That is actually totally true. He's had a bunch of losses, but, uh, so he, so he was like, uh, uh, failed to protect the president, but for some reason the government still liked him. So they started giving them contracts. So anyway, fast forward to the Pinkertons are still around and they've done a bunch of controversial shit. So like as they grew. Companies like, uh, Andrew Carnegie, like the titans of, uh, industry would hire him to basically like when there were, uh, unions that would go and strike, they would literally sit outside of a gate of a factory and like, like protest and shit. And then also fight. And so the Pinkertons at one point killed like 24 of these like protesters. It was like a huge thing.
And so they're like pretty hardcore. At their peak, they had more agents than the standing American army. Is that true? That's insane.
Dude, they had tons of people and their motto was Pinkertons don't sleep. We don't sleep. And their logo was an open eye. And so they like, it was just like, we are there all the time. And we will always find out what's going on.
You know, I thought that Mighty Ducks, Ducks Fly Together was the top, but this, we don't sleep might be better than Ducks Fly Together.
Yeah, we don't sleep. But so this company was created in 1850, I think I said. I was reading about coincidentally this other thing going on with like Amazon. Amazon was having some issues with union stuff. And dude, Amazon, this company still exists. And Amazon hired these Pinkertons. So basically what they do now, so the company was sold in like 2005 or something for like $400 million. So not a significant amount of money for how long it lasted, but because it kind of peaked in the early 1900s, but they're still hired by—
look at their website. Have you been to their website? Pinkerton.com. It just says our story. And there's literally a picture of Abe Lincoln. That's my hero image. Do they have a holding cell? Talking about owning your failures. These guys love it. Yeah.
Yeah. It just says, whoops.
Case study.
We've learned from our mistakes.
Nobody fails faster than us.
Yeah, they took fail fast to heart.
So risk advisory, investigations, protection, embedded SMEs. I don't even know what that is.
That sounds Dude, so listen to what they do. So they basically, they'll hire these guys. So Pinkerton, like there's like guards now, I guess, I don't know what they wear, like just blue jeans and a plaid shirt. And they like go to like, they'll go to Starbucks hired them and they'll go to the Starbucks to get a coffee and they'll just try to listen in and you'll hear like one guy talking to his coworker like, hey, we should unionize or, you know, fuck this guy. Let's do this and that. And they go and report it back to like corporate headquarters or they'll try to figure out like when, uh, Amazon was launching a bunch of stuff, they'll go and just walk around the office and be like, is anyone talking about shit they shouldn't be talking about? And they like report it. They still exist. Google hires them. Facebook hires them. They still like monitor this stuff. And it's a really, it's A, fascinating that a company has existed since 1850 or whenever it was. And they're still like working. And B, I started thinking about like private police and security companies. And there hasn't been that many, like, interesting security startups. So one of them that I actually invested in, it's called Deep Sentinel. Do you know what Deep Sentinel is?
It's the security, um, it's a security thing where you're like, it's a security camera where, uh, it'll talk. It'll like, there's like a human watching on the other side.
Uh, Deep Sentinel's whole thing, like they make a joke, they go, Ring's awesome for watching your shit get stolen. And, uh, like I, I have Deep Sentinels at my house and like one time a drunk guy came up to my front door thinking that I was We are his Airbnb and like the camera like catches him and he says, hey sir, what are you doing here? And they call the police. So I walked down at like 3 AM and I see the cops at my house, like taking away this guy. And so anyway, that's kind of cool. Another one is called Bannerman. Have you heard of Bannerman?
I have heard of this. It's like bodyguards, right?
Dude, we used to do it all the time. So it was a company that went through Y Combinator and we host conferences. Well, I don't know. I'm trying to figure out the site's still up, but basically when you host a conference, By law, as well as like practicality, like you need it, you have to hire security, you need security guards. And we would use Bannermen and we would hire like, and they have like a menu. It's like armed guard, $200 an hour, non-armed guard, $150, just a huge scary looking guy, $100 an hour. Like you could like hire them by the hour. And it was so easy. It was like Uber for security. It was awesome. But there hasn't been that much new startups like in this space.
By the way, here's the pricing. Unarmed guard, $59 an hour, armed guard, $98 an hour, off-duty police, $145 an hour, and they're armed. That's it.
That's it. So I can just get a big scary guy to walk with me for $50 or $80 an hour, whatever it was.
Yeah, I'll do it for free.
Um, the wrong type of scary. Uh, uh, so anyway, I'm just like interested in this space and I thought like the Pinkerton thing, it was wild that this shit still existed.
Do you know how much they sold for? Is that, or do you know anything about their revenues or anything? Like this is a Crazy. No.
And I've looked everywhere and the founder, uh, he, he says, uh, on his LinkedIn, he goes, I don't use LinkedIn anymore. That's like what it said on his profile. So I—
Founder's alive?
Yeah. His name's Johnny Chin. Um, how is he alive?
1850s?
Oh, I thought you were talking about, uh, fucking Bannerman.
Uh, no, Pinkerton.
No, that dude's for sure dead. Uh, how much does it cost? I don't—
How much? Well, you said they sold to somebody, right?
Oh, $400 million. In 1999, 400, like '99. Um, but it's pretty fascinating that it lasted that long. It got sold. So basically, and I was doing even further research on this, that like, there's this like the security industry, it appears as though it's like a handful of big players and then tons of mom and pops, but the handful of big players, there's like 3 of them and they each do like $10 billion a year in revenue. And what they do is they just acquire tons of like mom and pop businesses. And so now the biggest ones, you'll, you'll probably recognize a lot of their t-shirts. 'cause they'll see him at like, concerts and shit like that. But then there's a bunch of private ones. Have you heard of Blackwater?
No, that sounds good though.
So dude, this guy, his name's Eric Prince, very controversial guy. I haven't read his book, but I want to, but he was controversial because he started like a, it was basically a private security company, but they did shit for overseas. So they would like, protect like princes in Saudi Arabia and shit like that. And then also when, Iraq and all that shit went down, they would do government contracts. And so they would eventually like, you know, do army shit. So they would like protect like a convoy and eventually kill a lot of people. And they were like hardcore. And Erik Prince became a billionaire doing this. And he eventually sold it to private equity for billions of dollars. It's called Blackwater. Very ominous name. I love that name. But there's like a, there's like a bunch of interesting players in this space, but not that much like of these like tech startups. So I think it's really interesting and fascinating industry.
I'll give a quick shout out to this genius restaurant. Uh, so this guy Joshua Goodfield tweeted this out. There's a restaurant that basically named all of its, like the number 1, the number 2, the number 3, um, office supplies. So it'll be like mini dry erase board or like pack of pencils.
So that's hilarious.
You can expense on all meals from this restaurant.
It's called USB wired mouse, $5 French fries.
Yeah, exactly. I thought that was a genius little, uh, little marketing hack. Uh, so shout out to that. And then, um, Dude, are you watching the NBA Finals? I got a little human interest story for you.
No, but tell me about it.
It's pretty crazy. So the two teams that are in it, it's Miami Heat and Denver Nuggets. So the best player on both the teams have just like crazy backstories. So one, there's a guy on the Heat, Jimmy Butler. He, have you ever seen the movie The Blind Side?
I love that movie. That's my favorite movie.
It's his life. So the guy got kicked out of his house at like 13 and was crashing on friends' couches. And then this white woman just took him in and, um, she just like joined their family and he's like, yeah, she's, you know, she didn't have to do that. She just did it. Um, he calls her mom, like, you know, his brother, her, her real kids are his brothers and sisters. Like, that's just like the way it was. And he was not like, unlike The Blind Side, with The Blind Side, it was like, it was pretty clear this guy had like NFL talent. Like he was just like a freak athlete and was just huge. And so any coach would kind of tell you that, not to say that's why she did it, but like, it was kind of like possible. But Jimmy Butler was like, it wasn't like he went to a junior college, then he transferred to Marquette, then he barely got into the NBA. And now he's a star, but like, it was not obvious.
Have you heard, do you know who the real parents in Blindside that, you know, it's real people. He owned a shitload of KFCs and like Long John Silvers and shit. And I Googled him. He sold it for $400 million, all of his franchises.
Good things happen to good people.
Good things happen to good people. And so what, Jimmy Butler was—
so this woman, this woman that took him in, single mom also. So single mom with 7 kids did this, took him in, basically put a roof over his head. And, uh, he ends up grinding his way to the NBA and is, you know, doesn't make the thing. He also was doing something really, really funny. So back when COVID hit, the NBA, to keep the season going, they had to create a bubble. Many sports had to do this. They created a bubble, which was like a—
didn't they do it like at Disneyland?
Yeah, they did at Disney World, I think. So they did it in Disney World in Orlando. It was like you live on campus, nobody comes in or out. Like if food gets delivered, it gets delivered in a like sealed box 30 feet away and it gets, you know, like given to you. And they just like tested everybody daily. And if anybody ever had anything, they got kicked out. And so during that process, Jimmy Butler realizes, yo, supply demand is out of whack. So he starts He's making coffees. He brought a, he brought a fancy coffee machine and he starts making coffees. And, um, people are like, yo, can I get some coffee? Like the coffee here sucks. I want, I want the good coffee. He's like, yeah, cool, man. It's $100. That's fast. They're like, what? They're like, $100? He's like, that's the price.
He's like, you got somewhere else to go?
He's like, these are NBA players who cannot leave this bubble. And so, and they're like, all right, man, fuck it. And they just start giving him $100 for this coffee. And so he creates this brand. I think it's called Big Face Coffee. Uh, he, and now he's like, so he, he, and during the bubble, people want to know what it's like in there. So a lot of the guys were like vlogging. So this was like one of the storylines, you know, Jimmy opened up a coffee shop. He's just like, you know, killing us on this coffee. And he's like, yo, I make the best coffee. It's the best coffee in the world. $100. And, uh, and so now he's like creating a spinoff brand of actually that, that, that coffee brand, which is, I think, kind of cool.
And who's the other guy? That, that big white guy?
The giant white guy. So, uh, Jokic.
Dude, he looks mean. That guy looks mean. I saw he got into it with—
So he's from a small town in Serbia. Sombor, Serbia.
He got into it with some dude on the sidelines too. I saw.
Yeah, that's funny. That was the owner of another team. He basically like bullied an owner of another team. So, so this guy's, he's awesome. So he basically, his story's even crazier, I think. So this guy's born in the middle of nowhere Serbia. He's got two older brothers and his, he's, even though they're really tall, he only likes one sport. Horseback riding. So he just falls in love with horses. He's always on the horse track or whatever. But because he's so tall, like, you know, when he wasn't on with the horses, he starts playing basketball. And, um, what's interesting is that nobody would have ever known of this guy except for the fact that, um, there was one team that had a business model and their business model was basically let's find prospects that might have like NBA potential. We don't care if we win now. Well, let's just find like big dudes who got a lot of potential that like might get bought out by the bigger clubs. And let's, they're like kind of like house flippers. They're like, let's buy this guy. Let's see if we can turn up, like, you know, polish up the asset and let's flip them to a bigger team in Europe. Or let's hold their rights and maybe we get there and maybe the NBA team will have to buy, buy us out. And they had done this with a couple of guys. And so the guy's reading the newspaper one day and he sees that at some youth basketball game, like say some 8th grade game, some kid, you know, had like 25 points and 25 rebounds. And he's like, huh. So he goes and he finds this guy and he's like, hey, you ever thought about playing pro basketball? He's like, no. And he's like, come with me. So at like, I don't know, age 13, he like leaves his hometown and joins this like team. And they're like, and so you're, so then you think the story is, cause he's the best player in the NBA now. So it's like, he must've been hot.
He's the best now.
He's the best player in the world right now.
And so it's like, and how tall is he?
He's like 7, 7 foot 1, something like that. And so they're like, you would think, oh, he must've been dominating in Serbia. And then like, you know, he went to the, He's like, you know, tier 4 league. Like, you know, he must be awesome. No, he didn't even play. The coach was like, this kid is so fat. He is just so out of shape. I will not play this guy. And so he's only allowed to go to practice and they're like, until you can run, like until you're in shape, it's not going to work. He's like, what do I do? They're like, well, look, what's your diet? And the guy was drinking like 2 gallons of Coke a day. He's just, he was addicted to Coke. He just loved Coke, drinking Coke. And so they were like, you gotta stop that. Like, first of all. And, um, and so he stops drinking Coke. He loses like 30, 40 pounds in the course of like a few months just by changing that like one habit and going and running every day in practice because he won't, they won't give him the ball. He just have to run on the side while everybody else practices. And so he's doing that. Finally, he, um, starts playing. He becomes like the top player on his team, like as soon as he like was able to get in shape, he was the top player on his team. And he gets drafted in the second round. Like basically he's like one of the last picks. The NBA draft, if you go watch the video of like, oh, I want to see when they got drafted. Like you've seen when LeBron gets drafted, he gets on stage, he shakes the commissioner's hand, he smiles, the light bulbs are flashing. Like people know this is the start of the— a star is born.
Well, was he just like walking by and they're like, uh, here, take this hat. Here, just take that one.
Even better. They just cut to a Taco Bell commercial. And at the bottom ticker, it just said, pick number 41, Nikola Jokic. It just like, it goes across the screen, it goes away, and it's a cheesy Gordita Crunch ad. He didn't even have that starting moment because nobody thought this guy would turn into anything. And then he's basically become, you know, the best player in the world.
So how old is he?
Something like 27, 28, something like that. He's, he's pretty young still. And, um, he actually wouldn't have even made it to the NBA. Like this team in Barcelona was going to buy him. That was going to be the flip. It was like, he goes from the Serbian team to the Barcelona team. And the day, like the day before he was supposed to sign the contract, like it was already, the lawyer just had to finish one thing. He played in a game and he was so terrible that the team backed out. So he had no choice but to go join like the NBA team that had bought his rights or drafted his rights. And he's like, ah, I guess I'll go to the NBA then. Like, you know, I don't really know if anything's going to come of this, but whatever. And so he goes and he's this very stoic guy. Like in all his interviews, they're like, they have these narratives. The media has all these narratives. They're like, How has becoming a new dad helped you become a better basketball player? And he'll just look at them and be like, what? It doesn't. That's not how that works. He's just like, he's like just very matter of fact. Like, you know, like, you know, like the kind of like Dagestani guys in the UFC. He's kind of like that, but for basketball. So he's a fascinating character. And it reminds me of this quote that I heard from this VC. I was like, you know, what's, he had this Twitter bio. This guy, Nico, Nico, I don't know how he says that name. Bonsantos, Bonasastos. I don't know exactly how you say it.
Oh, from General Catalyst.
Yeah, from GC. Exactly. The guy, he invested in Snapchat super early on. And I was like, Nico, why is your bio, why is your bio quote what it is? And his quote was, talent is everywhere, opportunity is not. So talent is evenly distributed, but opportunity is not. And I was like, why is that? What does that mean? He goes, because it's true. He goes, talent is everywhere. But opportunity is not evenly distributed. And if I do my job right, we're going to distribute opportunity to more people who have the talent. And I think about both these guys, the two guys that are starring in the NBA, like, you know, they're kind of like one little bounce of the Plinko chip away from it being a zero. And instead they get to be world famous basketball players. It's like, if this guy didn't get discovered while playing in like a youth farm league in Serbia, or Jimmy Butler didn't get, you know, adopted by this woman, like who knows if they would have ended up actually even getting their shot. And it's like, that's how fragile, like, you know, like success and failure can be.
Dude, last night I went and hung out at this, like, have you heard of FloTrack? Or FloSports? Sorry, FloSports?
Yes.
So FloSports started as, it was basically this guy would go, they started out of UT, University of Texas. This guy would go and film track meets and wrestling meets.
Stuff that wasn't going to be broadcasted otherwise.
Stuff that wasn't going to be broadcast. And he was just like, he was a track and field athlete and I think they had friends that were wrestlers and he's like, but you know, I'm, I'm a fan of running and like people love that shit, but just not on TV. So he starts filming this and then he puts it online and he forms a company and people start buying it and paying like $100 a year to watch this stuff. And it's been around for 13 years now. And now they do over $100 million in revenue. And I was like, what's the fastest growing segment? And he said, uh, uh, um, motorsports. And I was like, oh, like NASCAR and shit. He's like, no, it's like it's like the pre-NASCAR. So it's like where the 18-year-old kids, they do this thing called dirt track. So it's like, it looks like a buggy kind of, and they're on, it's like, he's like, it's grassroots, but he didn't say it, but it's like redneck shit. And he's like, that's our fastest growing segment. But we have like 18 sports. I think they have wrestling, grappling, running, cross country, track and field, whatever, all this stuff. And so he, um, I went and hung out at their office because they had a little party and I was with like 3 different guys who had won gold medals in the Olympics. One guy in the decathlon, one guy in the mile and, uh, some other guys. And first of all, here's what was interesting. One of the, a bunch of the Olympians, I was like, hey, do you still run? You know, they're like maybe 40 now and like, you still run? And they're like, not a chance. Like, it was my job and like, I don't want to do that at all anymore. Like, I'll exercise and go for walks and I'll lift weights, but I don't want to like run like I used to run. I'm done with that. And the second thing was interesting is like, dude, these guys are all freaks. Like one guy, his name's Trey Hardy. You can look him up. His body is crazy and they are freaks of nature. But it's cool being around people like that who are A, the best in the world at something. Like they are literally, if they won a gold medal at that point, they are the best in the world at what they do. And it's so fascinating to like hear the stories. Like they would tell stories of like, dude, that guy, we used to go to the hotel and he'd be wearing flip flops and he'd be like, hey, I bet you I could touch the ceiling. And the ceiling was 15 feet high. And he would just jump and just touch the ceiling. And they were like, we just would see little like things like that. This guy would do shit all the time where he'd be like, watch this. I bet I can backflip, but he would backflip, but he would jump so high in the air. And like, we would just see these like freakish stuff all the time. And so I was thinking, would you give up any of the success that you've had so far in order to be a broke but Olympic medal winner or like the best athlete or whatever in the world? Because I was thinking about that and I think I would.
No chance on the gold medal. Well, best athlete in the world. Yes, I would do that. That's—
but there's a lot of sports where you could like be the best like NCAA wrestler, best like normal wrestler.
You're like my overall athlete. No, no, no. If it's, if it's, uh, I'm, I'm the fastest miler or NCAA, you know, uh, nation, you know, national champion or whatever. No chance. I've said this before. The Olympics are for suckers.
Oh, you are so crazy. Because I'm hanging out with these guys and I'm like, congrats, you are the best bobsledder the world has ever seen.
You've dedicated your entire life to this absolutely arbitrary thing that got you, that got you no money, that got you, uh, you know, no, no skills beyond this. I'm just joking.
Dude, I'm so, I so disagree because they were asking me advice on business shit. I'm like, hey, just so you know, I'm like, the 100,000th most successful person in America.
Maybe like, that's what I want to do. I want to play a game where the 100,000th person wins and has an awesome life. Not where I have to be the best person in the world. And even then, I gotta start over at age 27 and create a new career because I'm done with the thing and my joints don't work anymore.
These guys had shaved arms and shaved legs. I was just staring at those calf muscles and I was like, dude, I could see every vein of your forearm. That's so awesome. I would kill to have that. I want some of that vascularity. Like, Look at that vein pop. Like, I just love that. That was cool.
Uh, his business advice was great, but then he said he wants to put butter on my chest and I didn't understand that.
Like, he kept saying I had a really nice ball calf at the top of my leg. Like, dude, they, their calf muscles were just so solid. Like a little tennis ball was stuck in there. I just saw that. I'm like, so I remember I was thinking of this one guy and I told Sarah after, I was like, dude, I bet that guy's wife is so hot. And like, she just, she's like, that guy's wife?
You said to your wife?
This is unlogic.
Dude.
They're so lucky. And then she's like, well, he worked hard. And I was like, no, the wife. That wife is so lucky. Can you believe that she gets to see that bod? Like, I was just thinking about that shit, man. And I just love these Olympians, man. I'd give it all up just to be, to be a gold medalist in, in the high jump. So I don't know where we go from here. This is the total man episode.
It ends up with Sam loving men.
Dude, I do.
I like, I can't.
You just see a guy with like, you know, like some sick calf muscles. You got to admire it, you know?
Yeah, I guess you, I guess you do.
You don't do that?
Yeah, definitely not the way you'd— like there's been several people that come on this podcast and I'm like, I'm pretty sure Sam's just imagining them without their shirt on right now. I feel like Sam does that like pretty frequently.
Yeah. It's like, you have some sick pecs, bro. How'd you get some of those things? Yeah. If I see a guy with big pecs, I just want to ask him a bunch of questions. I don't know where we go from here. This is something.
