TCF891: Bringing Pride Back to the Craft

Writers, today I have back my buddy, Adam Sand. You're going to want to check out this interview. He is CEO, founder, all that good stuff of roofing business partner. You can check him out. At roofingbusinesspartner.com we talk about life and kids and marketing and ideal clients and how to attract more of the right people into trades, how to make more money. It's a great conversation. So without further ado, here is my interview with Adam Sandwich.

It turned into like, okay, don't fire me. Let me fix your CRM. And then we started doing that, and I mean that. And that just became what we do now because it was more sticky, it was more money. And then I had to change the entire business up when I had a baby here in November.

Well, first things first. What's your baby's name?

Atlas.

Atlas?

Yeah.

How is Atlas doing?

He is, you know, he's four and a bit months now and he's got his activity center the other day and he loves it and he's teething early and he feels, I feel like he's gonna walk any day now, even though it shouldn't be. But he's just growing. Like, I, I don't know, maybe it's that vaccine, you know what I mean? Like, we had to get it across the border into the States. Now I think he's just like a mutant or something. Fast.

Yeah. Powerlifting and all that already.

Yeah, it's cool. It's crazy.

Where, where do you live?

In between Hawaii and Canada.

Okay.

Yeah. So Edmonton area in Alberta, and then we have a place out in Hawaii and that's where we were for a long time. But then once we had the baby and we went. Came back to Canada to, you know, do the tour. Right. For everybody to meet him. When we went to cross the border back into the States, the border agency was just like, so you have an American born kid? I was like, you're like, yep. Right. Because Allison had some complications or whatever. And then so that just immediate red flag, they put us in the back, right. Where they put all the crying people. Right. And then we had to go through the whole process and they denied us to come back in. And we've been working on a different visa for about a year and a half. We put 100 grand into it. We should have had our interview actually, while we were, while we were here, that, in that phase, that eight days, we timed coming back with our interview time, but then it was late, so we had to get back to the States because I had two conferences to Attend. And then they, and then they just denied us. And like we have to wait for your interview. So we waited for interview. The girl said, yep, I think I want to prove you today. And then they put us into administrative processing. And it is the government, it is slow. And they're like, I mean, they're just pulling a straw. They really kind of are projecting that their thought process was that I built, went and built a multi million dollar company in the United States, hired 30 people, traveled the country, went, attended conferences, paid for booths at those conferences, paid my medical bills, hired, paid taxes. Also that three years later I could have a baby accidentally in the states so that what, he would get Obamacare. Like, like, like, you know, it's like. And then when you're in my position and I haven't seen my dogs in two months because they're still at my house in Hawaii, I have a babysitter, just hopefully giving them some care. But then I got to watch the news every day and you know what's on the news every day? Well, I was going, I'm the problem.

I was going to say, you screwed up. You should have gone to the came through the southern border.

Yeah.

Because it wouldn't have been a problem.

Yeah, it's, it's like, I know you see people, I see people on Tik Tok bragging about, you know, this stuff. And I see, you know, the stuff that's happened, like, you know, people beating up cops and getting released and flipping off cameras. And I just go, I'm your problem. And you have a screen door on a submarine and you're putting your finger over top the hole and I'm trying to go through and you think you're solving the problem.

That might be the best analogy I've heard. Man. I love it. I love it. Well, I'm sorry you're dealing with all that. It makes no sense. And it's, it's just wrong. It's flat out wrong. We all know it.

And God's teaching me. God's teaching me something. I don't know what it is yet.

Not sure what it is. But something, something's coming, right?

Yeah. Just to him. And it all works out well.

Dude, maybe you're just going to create the next software to fix this shit in the government, you know, and then you'll, you'll own planet Earth in a few years. So there you go.

No kidding.

I don't think you could do it, Adam. I don't think you could create a software that would fix this problem.

That's how you get me going.

You probably couldn't do it. Well, you're telling it, but, you know.

The problem is I'd be done in six months, but the government would want to spend $12 billion on it, make it three years late.

Oh, good stuff.

And then I'd get dragged into a senate hearing for how I overspent the money. Right? Yeah. Yes.

It'd be your fault again. You'd be the problem again.

It's always private contractor's fault, not the bureaucracy's fault.

That's right.

Yeah, man. So. But it's, it's fun going to business. Right? And this is just part of the, part of my challenge. And I mean, I, I love, I love America. And it's worth, it's worth fighting for.

There you go, man.

It's worth fighting for the opportunity to continue to be able to live and do business in that country.

Yep, I hear you. Well, you get through this stuff. Like you said, you're learning something. Who knows what it is, but you'll.

Figure it out and you know.

Well, congrats on Atlas Man. Hope hopefully you're enjoying it. It's. We have five kids and it's a, it's a riot. So, yeah, ours are all out of the house now, but it's, it's pretty cool.

So, you know, it, it's kind of, kind of neat. You start thinking about yourself or you start thinking of yourself as the ghost of your kids memories. Like you think someday he's going to remember this and it's going to anchor him to some behavior that he's going to choose to have. And it creates like this whole new perspective right on. Like how, how you behave and conduct yourself. Because now you're thinking this isn't just like my choices. These are going to be his, his template.

They're watching, man. Like, even though they don't know what's going on, they're watching and, and they pick up everything. It's pretty crazy.

So you had a, you were. You, did you end up doing a TV show or did that get kind of thrown off baseball?

Yeah, we, we, yeah, Covid kind of screwed it up a bit. We did, we, we filmed four episodes which they called season one. It was called Unfinished Business on, on HGTV and then didn't renew it. You know, they just didn't get the feedback they wanted. They were, I was an experiment. They never had like a coach. And so it was, it was a little bit unique where I had a builder and a designer and I would go in and coach People, basically, that started a master bathroom remodeling project 11 years ago, and it's still not done. And so I'd go in and I'd be like, you know, Adam, what's. What's going on inside your head here, man, that you can't finish this thing. You can't see this thing through. So I'm coaching them, and the feedback they got with their focus groups and stuff was, I don't go to HGTV to get coached. I go there to escape. And so. And there were some things, you know, I'd never done a show before, and I didn't realize, like, there was some input that I had that I didn't know I had as the host. You know, I just was kind of. I just. I was like, hey, I'm just the hired hand here, you know, the host. And I was just being me. And then they edit the crap out of everything. And, you know, it's. It's. It's pretty crazy. But I, you know, it was great experience overall. I think if I could go back, knowing what I know now, I think I would have been a little more vocal about some things, you know, not like being an. But just like, I think the way they set up the episodes was. Was kind of jacked up. We. We should have done it differently. And.

Well, nice thing is, is YouTube people go there to get coached all the time. Yeah, you already know how to. How to do content media. Like, we're experimenting with that ourselves. We started this thing called Building the Sand Castle because, like, our journey is so crazy from two years traveling the country, living out of our, like, living out of our car, but, like, going from city to city, city or Yukon with me, my wife, and my dog for two years during COVID to, you know, everything we're trying to do with the business now. We started this thing called Building the Sandcastle because Allison was pregnant. And we just thought, you know, like, all the content that I wish I could see, like my heroes, like the Alex Ramosis, the Grant Cardone's, the Gary Vee's, the Tony Robbins, the, you know, even like, go back, like, to, like, the Warren Buffett's, Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Elon Musk. Right. I wish that they would just, like, how cool would it have been if, like, when Jeff Bezos was putting books and boxes on his hands and knees, and there's a story about how they're all on their hands and knees in his garage putting books in boxes. It's so busy. And then Jeff stands up and goes Stretches back. Oh, guys, we need knee pads. And a guy who's now, like, a senior vice president worth hundreds of millions of dollars, but he was in the garage with him that day, says, no, Jeff, we need desks. And how great would it be if you could go back and see fate like, Jeff Bezos pull out his Facebook Live? Like, so the funniest thing just happened. We were on the other, and he said, and this guy here says, no, Jeff, we need. We need desks. Right? And the. And the crazy thing is, is once you get successful, you get haters, right? And they say you're fake and you didn't really do it, or, you know, like, you don't pay enough income tax or, like, whatever, right? Like, everybody. We have this weird thing in America where everybody wants to, like, tear down heroes once they made it. Like, it's like the minute you make it, all these people want to tear you down. It's almost like you don't want to be an exceptional person, because the minute you do, they'll just tear you down. It's like, who wants to be president? You know, like, the great, the best and greatest would be stupid to go be president. And so we decided that we wanted to make that content, even though it was financially burdensome. So we actually, like, started vlogging about our life. And we have, you know, Allison's home birth, right? We did that, right? We have, like, her yelling at me in the shower because the dog knocked over a coffee. And I wasn't sensitive to it, how we had to deal with them. We had employees quit because of the show, because we, you know, we started out talking a little bit more about, like, stuff we were dealing with, with employees and they were comfortable with. And so the first episode caused two people to quit. Like, you know, we went through, but we're showing, like, what it's like to build a business when it's new. And now I get. My highest episode is 4000 views. My lowest is 180. Has no views. But my hope is that, you know, when. If I believe in what I'm doing, right, if I believe that I'm going to get where I want to go, right, then I owe it to the entrepreneurial community to make the content that I wish I could consume so someday someone else could, right? And so that's. That's the theory behind it. So when I hear you say what you just said, I just think, dude, like, whether you own the naming rights or not, whether you, you know, name it something different, like, if that's what you want to do. And if you believe in what you're doing there, if you believe that you can help people with that. Yep. I say do it, man.

Yeah, it's a. You know, the. The other issue that we ran into. So, like, give you an example, if you. Is, you know, everything I do in the contractor fight is stop stealing from your family. Right. It's like, it's about, you know, charging more and charging appropriately, and most contractors don't make money and all this other. Then I'm on hgtv, and we're in the kitchen, and the network is telling me that I need to give this budget for what this kitchen is going.

To cost, and you're kind of going against your core value.

And so. So I. I just chose to be me. And I said, so, like, one of the first time we did it, they were like, yeah, we want you to say that this kitchen's around 28 grand. It's going to be about 28 grand to do this kitchen. And I'm like, I texted a buddy of mine who's a kitchen remodeler and stuff and builds kitchens and this and that, and I'm like, hey, shooting all these pictures. I'm like, oh, much is this kitchen. He's like, it's like a hundred, you know, And I'm like, so. So on the show, and they edit it in a way that not everything comes out, too. You know what I mean? Like, you don't.

Oh, my buddy was on Naked and Afraid twice.

Okay, well, there you go.

I've heard all about how it goes.

So I said, what was the woman's name? I forget her name. But anyway, really nice lady. I said, hey, listen, I've got some. Some good news, and I got some bad news. And she's like. And I said, let's start with the bad news. This kitchen is a. Is a hundred thousand dollars kitchen. To do this, to do it right. And. And I said, you ready for the good news? She goes, what's that? I said, the good news is you already have the cabinets, and you already. You already have, you know, some of these appliances, and you've already shared with me that you have a bunch of people, including yourself, that are willing to put some sweat equity into this. And so the majority of your labor is covered, so it looks like you're going to be out of pocket around 28 to $34,000. So that's how I framed it. But. But it was still bullshit. And it felt icky, you know, because it's just not so I had to walk this line. And it was. And I was very clear when we did the, the, the interviews to see, like, they reached out to me for, like, I don't know, several months, and they're like, we want you to host the show. And finally I did a zoom. And I'm like, guys, I can't go on HGTV and talk about how contractors are ripping people off. Okay.

Yeah.

Because most of them are fucking broke. Most of them are not making any money. Most of them don't know their numbers. And you consumers think that they're ripping you off, and they're not. They're starving while you fucking retire. And they never retire. And, like, this whole thing, I said, so I will do the show under one condition. And how it was supposed to be was I was going to bridge the gap between unrealistic homeowner expectations and contractors and show that, like, because I, you know, me, I call bullshit on the contractors as much I call them on the homeowners. Right. You know, I just call it as I see it. And so that was the intent. I think it would have been a lot better had it been on another network. I think it would have done better because HGTV is a little fluffy and so. And so the. Not like, the fuck you in your face, Tom Reber, but, like, the little bit more intense version of me would have probably been accepted better on Spike.

Because it would have been you. You.

Yeah. So I've. My team and I, we, you know, the last year and a half, two years, we keep. My wife and I and this. We keep throwing around the idea we know some now I know a bunch of people that produce, and I could pull a team together and do it. It's really, at this point just going, what's. What's the angle that people give a shit about for something where. Because it. I would want to do it where. Why HGTV works. Here's the biggest thing. They. Here's the problem. Create some drama. Oh, my God, can we get this done? Here's the reveal, right? The show is always about the reveal. And so I picture, like, just as an example, like, a bar rescue for contractors. But there's no reveal in bar rescue. There's a reveal. There's a grand opening. There's people in a restaurant. You know what I'm saying? It's more visual. So. And I help. I just help fuckers make more money, save their marriages, you know, be there for their kids. You know, it's. There's not this big visual reveal and so we're just kind of working around like is first, what would that look like? And second, is the juice worth the squeeze? Because it's as you know, you've done the YouTube thing and this and that. Like it's, it's a lot man. You know, and, and it's, and if it doesn't fulfill.

Passionate about the project. Yeah, I don't want to film a, I'm not like for my like business content. You know, we don't spend a lot on production value. Right. Like we spend enough to be relevant and like, and be taken seriously. But like the building the sand castle to actually create like a lifestyle type, you know, TV show quality thing that runs 11 minutes, that's like to do a weekly episode cost us like 10 to 16k a month. Right. It's like that's a serious investment if you're trying to get an ROI on that. Like I'm not getting ROI on that other than like I'm putting into the world what I thought. But you know, kind of speak with, speak to what you said, right? You know, you're, you're helping people spend more time with their families and help them make more money and live better lives and spend more time with their kids. The, the contracting industry is really like, you know, America's forgotten sons, right? Like that's who ends up in this, especially now. Like that the youth doesn't have like a pride in the trades. It's kind of like where they end up. You know, you kind of got America's forgotten sons. And the biggest thing that I've noticed was like, you know, prior to having the baby, our business really just became like, you know, people in the roofing industry would tease me and say, you know, we're a luxury of the rich, right? Like that. Because we were building like, you know, 100, $200,000 systems for large enterprise level roofing companies. But it required me, my team to be there on site because you got to stare at 50 doe wide salespeople who are now getting their commission cut, their roles changed, the tools they're using, changing the whole business process is changing. To adopt, you know, to move from some kind of, you know, base model system that's built for like, you know, the 60,000 roofers that are between, you know, 3 and 8 million and going to like an enterprise level system. And these guys, you know, like they don't need another boat or another car. Like the marginal utility of money in their bank account has had a decreasing rate of return on their happiness for years. Like you're running a $46 million company doing 10% net profit. You got 4.6 million, you bought a building, you're investing in real estate. You're in, you know, you got a ranch. Like, your wife's got all the bags. You go on vacations, your kids are set up. Like that wasn't making them happy. They just wanted their business to run the way they envisioned it in their head because it's kind of outgrown their hands. Because in a contracting business, you know, Walmart has 60,000 cameras inside of a 60,000 square foot store, right? And yet as a contractor, you got a, you know, a 600 square mile store and you got no cameras, no insight, no tracking, no nothing. And then when you've got 100, 180 sales reps and stuff like this, it's too much. But then when the baby was born, my wife was like, well, you're a business consultant, so consult yourself and figure out how to not travel anymore. So I had to spend about six months with a crayon figuring out how to turn that into a new business model. And we found a way to scale our services to appropriately serve. We had to do some technology enablement, nerdy stuff, but we found a way to serve three to $8 million contractors. And what I found is I hadn't talked to them in years, but what I found is like the version of me now, right, realizes like these customers are families. Like, I got a client that's, you know, husband, wife and both sons, that's who's running the roofing company. And this stands to change the family tree. Like it's a really more rewarding place to live, right? And helping these like 3 to 8 million dollar roofers. And just even to get to 3 to 8 million, you have to figure out a lot of stuff and step on a lot of landmines, right? And if you, when you say that it's a juice worth the squeeze, you know, there's a portion of you that at this point, right, you have legacy, right? Because you men typically go from making money in business to some kind of creative work to legacy and changing the world, right? Like, talk about Trump, right? He went from building businesses and making money to the apprentice to president. Yeah. And so what is your version of that? Like, you've done a lot of creative work, but then now what is the legacy you leave behind? So the juice might be worth the squeeze if you can find a way to tie it back to what does it mean when Todd Reaver's gone Fighters.

Are you ready to get serious about making some changes in your business? As you know, our contractor intervention segments on the podcast have been a great success. We've helped so many contractors level up their business. And I just want to remind you that if you're in a position right now where you're willing to look in the mirror, you want to go toe to toe with me one on one and get some coaching, some training, support, some help for you to identify those next steps that you need to take in your business, then I invite you to go to thecontractorfight.com intervention, fill out the application, and we'll see if you qualify and get you on the show and help you take that next leap in your business. I'm out.

When I was trying to ultimately say, okay, how do I train other consultants to do my job? You know, it was okay. First, we have to operate on the theory of constraints, right? So if you're trying to run from point A to point B and get there as fast as you can, you could try and improve your gait, right. Your process, right. You could try and change your shoes, get better systems. If there's a rubber band holding your ankles together, right? That's the constraint. Cut the rubber band, the shoes and the. In the running and the breathing. Doesn't make sense. Like, doesn't change that much. Then you have to get to a place where you can collect data, right? You have to collect data and then be very pragmatic by saying, the data is telling us something, what is working? Let's do more of that, right? Yeah. And you have to think, like, is it outperforming the average? You do more of that and you do. So like you kind of were talking about, you could. If you're doing direct mail, right? And you spend $10,000 in direct mail and you get a million dollars in sales. If you do 20,000, you get 2 million next quarter. Well, great. If you did. If you spent 30,000, you get 3 million. Oh, you only got two and a half. So you reach like that Asym tool, right? Decreasing return. So then you have to say, well, can I do it better? So the better offer, better targeting, better, better, you know, more colors, bigger postcard, right? Know where. Where do we do it? How do we do it better? And then once you get. If you've exhausted more and you've exhausted better, then you do new. And you have to do new based on the experience of everything you've done, right? Say, is this going to be easy with a big impact? Is it Going to be easy with a little impact. Is it going to be hard with a big impact or is it going to be hard with little impact? And you start at the top and work your way down. If you get to the point where it's hard and has very little impact, then there's probably a new constraint that you're not seeing. You should probably refocus around that. And when I showed the consultants that I was hiring that that methodology and then just tried to like build infrastructure in these businesses, allowed us to get the data so we could be pragmatic about it, all of a sudden really getting anything to go wherever you want became kind of easy and predictable. Like it almost felt like a cheat code. If people could just memorize that, like whatever, how many sentences it is, yeah, I probably wouldn't have a job, right? And so whether I think it applies to pretty much anything. Health, right? Like marriage, content, business, sales, like just constraints, more better, new, new based on impact. And then be just ridiculous about executing and be honest, right?

So what are some of the constraints that you're seeing just at the, you know, higher level, bird's eye view with the contractors you've been working with, you know, when you get your hands on them, what are some of those things?

So, you know, by the way, I'm.

Starting the interview now, so I kind.

Of, I kind of saw that when I look at these roofing companies, right? I saw a really good interview today where a guy's actually being used as an example, right? Okay. And for most people he is because he's running a about $46 million roofing company. And so somebody's doing an interview because it's a clickbaity headline. He's well known. So it's like, here's this guy now, I've worked for a lot of these people, right? And the very beginning of the interview, he's talking about how he has 100 reps, now he has 180 reps. He's talking about scaling into busy season for roofing, right? He's saying that, you know, but they get into talking about how sales people have this like natural happiness set point. That wasn't a language they used, but it's how I was interpreting it. It's like, yeah, sometimes like salespeople is like pushing string, right? Because they get, you know, some guys get to 75, 000 or a hundred thousand something to 150, 000, but that's really where they're like belief lid pops out. And that's, that's where it's like, that's where they're happy making money. But the problem is the company is generating leads. So then you have to hire more salespeople to accomplish the leads. Because if he takes these 100 reps from last year, he says, yeah, they're average around 300 to $500,000 in annual sales. And sometimes you get a million dollar producer. But they're hard to do. So we really focus on personal development. But they kind of circle the drain a bit on this conversation about the difficulty of it. You know, you have to motivate them and you have to try and create competition. And these are project managers. They're doing like cradle of the grave style sales, right? So they get the lead, they sell the job, do the work, order material, order, you know, and then kind of like run the job, you know, tell the subs what to do and then collect the check, right? So I call it like cradle to grave. Most people do. And then we've been big, like, we've done the data because we had to figure this out during COVID right? Which was like, now you couldn't meet people in their homes. You could sell. You had to kind of sell more and get more appointments out per day. And I had a client reach out to me and said, adam, I want to do 25 million easier than I did 20. And this will explain why this came up. So he flew me out there for a month and said, I got to figure this out. He said, I got some sales guys that can quote some roofing materials, some that can quote all. My sales manager basically has to die because he's not doing bad because we're growing, but he's not doing great. And he can't really, like qualify. These sales guys really quality quoted the right stuff because he doesn't know all the materials, but I don't want to fire him and I don't have anybody to replace him. And he said some sales guys are really good at follow up and they're like, you know, they're not good at closing the deal and they discount before they even come out of first pencil. But you know, they close a lot of deals in follow up when they're really good in the CRM, they keep things organized and their deals are good. Now I got these other guys killers, but gosh, like they, you know, they don't close that many more deals than the other guys. They just one call close a lot more and they're always cooking up heat. Their jobs are disorganized and there's so many leads in their bucket, they're not taking care of it. That's what this Guy on this YouTube video says. I paid for 10,000 leads last year. We got 2, 500 sales. I got contractors in my market say, oh, yeah, we're happy to pick up your slack. You know what I mean? Like, they're happy to be the second guy because they know they're. Because. And so he's being modeled as the example. But then, you know, I look at the data on that. So with that customer, what we did is we drew a circle on a whiteboard. We said, okay, what are the skills that are needed to be a good. A good salesperson? It's like, well, you got climbing on roofs, taking pictures, site conditions inspect, like finding leaks, you know, like just knowing how to kind of scope a job. And then there was got to be able to kitchen, kitchen table, kneecap to kneecap, closing deals, presenting demo. You got to drive. You got to be able to climb on a roof, right? And then you got to go. Then there's like, the inside stuff, which was like, follow up, setting up deals, putting the things in the CRM, you know, creating the company cam, creating the sumo quote like this, ordering the measurements from the satellite company, all that stuff kind of stuff. And then handing off the job, production, like the notes to give to production. And then there was, like, estimating, right? And so we were finished. This circle kind of looked like a Covid thing, you know, so we call it the amoeba. And this was during COVID So I think our brains were all just thinking, sure. And so we call it the amoeba. And so what we kind of theorized was, what if we could just split the role up, right? Have inside people and outside people and, like, maybe an estimator for when the jobs are complicated. And so I flew back home, and then I went and built the CRM that would allow for this. And we came up with a different compensation plan where we're like, okay, outside guys will get, like 5% instead of the usual, like 10 to 12. The inside guys will get 15 bucks an hour, $150 a deal, and 1% if they get over this many deals. And we experimented with, like, what the team should look like. And we looked at it like one inside to two outside. Because every lead that comes in the inside jobs incur about an hour of work, right? You got a lead intake put together, you know, notes, set the appointment, order the measurements, set up the deal in the CRM. You got to follow up, follow, follow Follow up, and then you got to like sign it, and then you got to write some notes and push it to production. Then outside incurs about two hours with work, right? Because you drive there, do like your 20, 30 minute inspection checklist, pictures, that kind of stuff. Then put together a proposal, walk in, do your dog and pony show, overcome objections, sign the deal, get back in your truck and start driving. Next one, that's what two hours would work. So we really realized there's one inside, the two outside. Because if you get eight leads a day, the inside person accumulated an hour, eight hours worth of work. And the two outside people included incurred four hours each, or, sorry, eight hours each. So this would like scale and pause, right? And well, that company ended up doing 46 million that year instead of 20, right? And so when I look at that guy, he's got 180 reps, he's doing 46 million a year. He's getting 10,000 leads, close around 25%. And he's paying a high commission rate because these guys got to do all the work. And what are they thinking? I got to do all the work for this guy, right? He's paying me 12 or whatever percent commission, but I got to do all the work. And for all that work, if I could get paid like a hundred grand a year and I can work six hours a day doing all these different things, some things I'm good at, some things I'm not good at, some things I like, some things I don't, I'm good making 120Q a year. So when he says, oh, we got more leads, who can run more appointments, he's like, man, hire somebody else. I'm good, right? Whereas this model actually decreased the cost of sales. And because it split the role in two. So then it split, decreased the cost of sales and split it. They kind of had to do a little more as far as volume to make the same money, but they were doing the things they're good at. One of the best inside salespeople I've ever met is actually in a wheelchair, right? And would like to be doing Verizon tech support. And so then we, this is what we rolled out across the country for two years. So I look at this guy, if he split those 180 people into 63 person teams, right? Our pods typically do two point. Like the average is 2.7. Our record is 7.2. The next highest is 5.7, but the average is 2.7 million per pod. You know me like I love.

And a pot is three Right. Pot is two outside and one inside. Just to be clear for everybody. Okay.

Yeah. So Our average is 2.7 million per pod. And so if they just did that, there's a couple other ingredients that go into making this work. Right? You get some tech and stuff like that you got to do and some processes that change. But if they just did that, the math that I put out, that would be $146 million company. Right, right. And so they wouldn't even have to do, like, they'd probably lose. Like, we had one client. 15 of their 17 sales reps quit the week after I left. They hired back eight, but they went from 1.2 million a month. 60 days later, they're doing 3 million a month. And they kept doing that. And the employees are happier. And so a lot of what I see at the high level is that. Right. It's not looking at the data and seeing that, like, to make the work your people do more rewarding and engineer a better customer experience that aligns. If you show me the incentives, I'll show you the outcome. So align the incentives with the outcomes you're looking for. Big companies would be a lot more efficient. And if they could. I have this thing that I said that I'm not done until roofers are respected at the bar and the bank because these companies blow so much money to. These sales guys get paid 2, 3, 4, $5,000 to sell 20, $30,000 project. And not against sales guys making money. But then you see the whole crew gets paid $4,000 to do backbreaking work in the hot sun for 12 hours, risking their lives, right? Missing their families and, you know, having unexpected dates when they get like, those sales guys say, I'm good, I'm good. You know, I mean, but the roofers, they got to get the job done, get the roof watertight. They told their wife they're gonna be home for dinner, but now they're not showing up till 7:30. They're going home, Their wife's disappointed, their kids don't like them, they get divorced, and the cancer of the contractor's family persists. And if we could decrease the cost of sales, increase net profits with a few other operating frameworks, we could pay the tradespeople more money. And if we pay the tradespeople more money, when they walk into a bank and ask for a mortgage and they write down roofer on their application, the bank isn't gonna go. This is gonna be a waste of time. Right? And if a roofer walks into a bar, sees a Girl. And she goes, wow, you're in shape. I like your chiseled jaw and your beard, right? It's like, what do you do for work? I'm a roofer. Ah. I'll go date the fat banker, Right? Yeah. And, yeah, it's like, if I can. I'm not done until I can make roofing companies run so efficiently that the roofers are respected at the bar, in the bank.

Again, dude, I love that. And. And here's. It's funny, because one of the other things on my list to talk about was hiring, right? And I have a belief now. I'm. How old are you?

40.

40, okay. I'm 54. Ever since I was a kid, as long as I can remember, it's been drilled into my head, you got to go to college. Don't go to the trades. The trades are a fallback. It's. If you know a trade that's good because you could fall back on something, it's always a second option, right?

And.

So, number one, I think culturally, just that messaging for decades has made the trades less attractive to people.

Right?

And just on that macro level, however, I'm about. As you. I'm about like, all right, well, what do we have control over, right? Like, the circumstances, you know, what do I have control over? What do you have control over? I. And one of the things that drives me is I believe that the hiring issues in the trades, one of the things that's going to help those go away is when the average contractor is kicking. Kicking ass, when they have a good marriage, they have a good bank account, you know, they're not just broke, tired, and dirty like my dad was my whole life as a tile guy coming home, you know, it's where the contractors are living in the gated communities, not just the customers of the contractors. When contractors are going on vacation, I mean, dude, I. I never went on vacation growing up as a kid. So I spent my whole life and listen, my relatives that are in the trades and stuff, I love them to death. They work their asses off, right? All the respect in the world. But, like, as a kid growing up, the last thing I ever wanted to be was in the trades because all my buddies, dads were doctors and engineers and shit, and they were on the outside, you know, you never know what's going on. They were killing it. And so I love that mission that you have, because I think it's. It resonates with me because I'm sitting here going, you want to make the trade? You. You want people to Come into the trades, you individually have to be attractive, right? Like it's. How about instead of being the fat ass plumber with plumber crack, be the guy that's on 75 hard, who's in shape and making bank, you know what I mean? And has a great marriage and all these other things and a big truck.

And a quad and kids that he gets to play sports with and he has the body that he can still play sports with his kids. And it's like if there's, and there's elements to this that need to be fixed, right? And I think the responsibility is, you know, it falls on the, on the employers who want to bring respect to their trade because who else is going to do it? And like when I had my roofing company, you know, it was sergeant's roofing. So what we did try and impact this, right? Because I used to say this when I was owned a roofing company too. I said, I'm not done until roofers are respected at the bar, in the bank. I said, I look at my place, I'm like, I know like most you guys growing up doing this job, if you guys managed to hold your marriages together and your kid grows up a roofer, you'll be like, man, I worked my ass off my whole life. Your mom stayed off the pole. How the hell did you end up a roofer, right? Like that's your perspective. We have to change that from the, from the employee. We have to give, we have to teach them how to take pride in themselves. And so we had sergeants boot camp, which is where we cross train them on the different parts of the different jobs in the company. We had sergeant support, which was a huge test of me because I would, I would, on Sundays when I had time off, I would meet with them for an hour, hour and a half. At the time I had a condo downtown, like big fancy kind of thing. And we had the rec areas, right? We had like the golf thing and the pool tables and stuff. And we would, you know, book it out for two hours and I bring them food and they'd tell me about their girlfriend. It was a, they're the girl that was a dating a hell's angel that he got pregnant. But she can't tell her boyfriend that she got knocked up when she was cheating on him because he'll shoot her. The drug addictions, they have the drinking problems, they have the money problems, they have their dreams. And then we do sergeants goal setting on the first Monday of every month at 5am I bring them in and we do work with the book the One thing by Gary Halpert. Try and drive them towards a long term goal. And then we had Thursday, which was just the company meeting where everybody got together. And I would always pay a lot of respect to the roofers to try and say, look, it's this Sergeant's roof. It ain't Sergeant sales, it ain't Sergeant's accounting, it ain't Sergeant's marketing, it's Sergeant's roof. And they called it roof Church. Because I would try and take like, I would take like straight up, I would take Patrick Bet David's videos. Yeah, he talks like 21 rules for young men. Like get off porn. Don't watch this, don't do that. Like remember this, don't get yourself involved in that. And I'm straight. Just like take the content, rewrite it into a notebook and I'll go and present on it, right? Because if I put them in front of a video of some rich billionaire that's like talking about insurance, it's that it wasn't going to hit him the same. But they looked at me as a certain kind of way, right? So I would do that. And I think that, you know, unfortunately I was in northern Canada, it's not a great market, you know, but I would encourage business owners that if you have. And the problem is it's so much subcontracting and roofing, like the business owner doesn't actually have that. And I think that this new law from the IRS is going to change a bit of that because they're actually coming after contractors. If you make 90% of your income from one source, you're technically employees. So I think you're going to see some disruption. They basically modeled this in California, Hawaii and Idaho and Washington state. So they're kind of rolling it out nationwide now. And this is going to change a lot of the way people have payroll and systems. But they're also going to have to change the level of leadership that they have because they're going to have to actually bring these guys in who drink a bottle of shampoo for breakfast and come to work and then they're going to have to get and they have to take America's forgotten sons and they're going to have to extend the level of leadership that they have. And I think that the people who will win, right in the changing world where every, all the currency's digital, the government's got to pay off the COVID debt, they're coming for their money, right? They're coming for their tax base. They're letting everybody in across the border like they want there. They know what they're going to do. There's gonna be a big immigration reform and all these people we grant to temporary foreign work visas or some like that, and they're going to tax them and they're going to pay off all this Covid money, right, like they like. The math tells us that this has to happen. Increase the number of people that are paying taxes so they don't have to campaign on raising taxes. They have to raise the number of people that are paying taxes. And so that is going to translate into more in house crews. And I think that if someone, someone with a bigger voice than me can teach business owners in the roofing or in construction, right. To teach contractors that they can and should take pride in themselves and find ways to make their businesses more efficient so they can make the trade more attractive, we will solve the labor crisis and we will make America a better place. And the children of these contractors will become better fathers, better husbands, better citizens, and America will be a better country for it. 32% of the national GDP is home services. That means 30% of the income is going to people who are broken homes, broken families, broken social structures. You know, they've lost. You know, I don't want to make this preachy, but like, they don't have a relationship with God or something that gives them like a moral code that exists beyond the legal laws of their state. Like something that says like this, my soul's on the line. You know, like something, something that gives them a moral code that goes beyond getting yelled at or getting your hand slapped or getting going to jail. Like, that shouldn't be the only consequence. Like, if you can get away with it, you're good. It should be like someone's always watching and it matters. Yeah, I think, man, I think it's a value we're striving for. But I'm. I know, I'm. I know that to a lot of people who are just trying to figure out how to get to $2 million in revenue and make 40 gross profit and 10 net. And they're just trying to figure out where they can get leads. Right. I think that there also has to be a realistic perspective of yourself and say, like, are you really a business owner? Like 80%. I have this like, thing that pisses everybody off. But I say 80 of roofers don't deserve to exist or selling the same installed the same way by the same people use the tools in the same amount of time for more or less the same price. No, Louis Vuitton of Gaf shingles is ten times the price. You don't have models and on skirts, you know, on the roof. Installing roofs, it gives the, the Ruth Chris steak experience of asphalt shingles. Like, yeah, pretty simple business. And so if you're installing a commoditized product and you don't have anything that stands you apart as a leader, you might not necessarily deserve to like, buy the invisible hand of capitalism to be successful because you don't have the right ingredients. But if you have a part of the business that made you want to start your own company, why did you leave? Shitty boss. Right. So what'd you go and become a shitty boss?

Shitty boss.

Maybe there's just be less shitty bosses. And, and, and I think that more professionalism in this industry and a little more a good economic, you know, disruption. Right. Like we've had a lot of expansion for a while now. I think we have a soft landing going on, but if we get a real hard, you know, bump coming up, like another 2008, you're going to see, you know, a lot of people bound to be caught swimming naked when that time goes out, as Warren Buffett would say. And, and I think that that's going to create a rise of great leaders running great organizations. And these people who are struggling, aren't struggling because they're not, they don't have access to you. Like, you're putting out so much content. The answers are out there. Like, it's never been easier to get the answers. Will you do it?

Well, and that, that's, that's hands down the thing right there. Like it's you, how many times you, you probably do see this when you consult people and stuff, like, you say something, they go, yeah, I know. You know the, the curse of the. I knows, okay? And I'm like, well, if, and I, I believe you don't really know it unless you're doing it.

Like, intelligence is not whether you know it, it's whether you do it. It's like if you get this intelligence, the same, same stimulus, different reaction, right? Like Alex Hormozy puts it really simple. If I hold up a red card and I slap you, and then I hold up a red card and I slap you. If on the third time I hold a red card, you don't duck, you have learned nothing. You know, I'm going to slap you, but if you don't duck, you have learned nothing. Yep. And this, this is true in all matters of life.

Yeah. So I want to, I want to talk about a little bit of the marketing stuff. I mean there's, there's so many things I talked to you about. I told you that before we hit record. And it's, I'm, I'm looking at this list just going, okay, what, what's going to be the most value for people here? So are you, are you cool if I throw a couple things at you and we just kind of rapid fire them? Initial thoughts? Fun.

I can usually yap a bit, so I'll try and do some rapid fire.

Yeah. So what's your thoughts on how to figure out who your ideal client is?

Really trying to figure out who you're best built to serve, right? If you figure out who you're best built to serve, what is unique about you as a company? If you, if you're bilingual, maybe targeting people who are from a different country, right? If you are, if you focus, if you're really good at metal roofs, do that. If you're good at multi trade, do that. Right? If you're, if you're, if you're like, I have a client forever. Metal roofing, like they only do metal roofs, right? They look, they turn down business every day, right? So trying to figure out who you're best built to serve will then determine your ideal customer avatar. Because if you're just trying to say, oh my ideal customer avatar is rich people that have big budgets and they want to trust the contractor on every decision they make, like, yeah, you and everybody else, slick, you know, who are you best built to serve, right? And then now then you might find your ver. If you're really smart, maybe it's commercial roofing. Like if you can do the paperwork, if you can do the do, like if you can handle all the bidding and qualification and contract management, like if you can, like I know guys, that's all they do. They're one man roofing company making 5 million a year. They're doing contract management, bidding and estimating and they're doing four roofs a year. I mean like maybe that's you, you know, but yeah, who are you best built to serve based on the chemical makeup of who you are? I'll try and go faster on the next.

No, that was fine. That was good. And, and because it reminds me back, you know, with our painting company, we had a couple different ideal client Personas. One happened to be the wife of a high level executive being transferred from the east coast to the Chicago area where we were at. And they had moving trucks on the way. And they had a deadline to hit. And they appreciated the fact that we had a big crew. We'd get in, we'd get out, and we would make that house in a couple days her home and never miss the deadline of the movers coming because she had a bunch of other things on her plate with moving the kids, schools, finding a sushi place and whatever. So we went after the higher level relocation companies is kind of who I would prospect. And we never got, never had, never were out to bid on those projects. Whatever the price was, the price was because they at the east coast to the Midwest, the big key there was shit is always more expensive on the east Coast.

So we were price conditioning.

We were priced, quote, unquote high in our area. We were always higher than every other contractor for the most part. But the people that were being relocated, they never thought we were expensive. So it was like easy in turn.

Is who are you best built to serve high, touch fast, right? Because you always say cheap, fast or good, right? You're fast and good, right? But you ain't cheap, right? And you built a company around being able to serve that in. My roofing company said we were Bob and Betty, who were professionals, military or business owners. And they had a 612 roof, about 30 bundles, suburban home. And they had teenage kids living in the home. And they typically had no fence and nice landscaping. And I knew that that was my best customer because professionals, business owners and military people, we had the hero discount. But they typically look at things through a lens of liability. And they didn't want to take a risk. Was like a mechanic would be like, well, my boss terms me out 140 an hour, pays me 40. If I could find the version of me, then I'll just hire that guy. But they don't look at terms of liability, no fence, nice landscaping. When we did the data on it, what we found out is people with no fence, they live in more community with their neighbors, and they want to make sure they're not the bad apple in the. In the group that hires a contractor makes a mess everywhere because they're the ones that have. And the nice landscaping means, like, you know, the guys like make the checkered pattern on the lawn, right? Like these guys like, hey, John, you're gonna take care of that weed, right? Don't be mowing that dandelion. Make sure you pull that out and spray it. So all these little, like, what you're talking about is personality traits and how they align with who you are. Because we were like militant of about tarps and property protection and all these kinds of things. They'll do that. So if you have teenage kids living in the home and pets, you know, you care about your backyard being clean. If you're living. If teenage kids, you're probably not moving them soon. So you're gonna be the primary beneficiary of the lifetime product that you're trying to sell. So we just gave two very good examples of exactly how you make your. Who are you best built to serve and align your product and service offering around that. Continue trying to improve the product.

Those people you brought up, pets. It's funny, One of my buddies had a amazing remodeling company, and among other things, the number one ideal client check box that had to be checked was they had to be dog owners. They found through the years that every project that it was a dog owner, the people were easier to work with. They did not. If you were a cat owner, they were like, quadrupling the fucking price because they're like, your cat people are a pain in the ass for the most part. This was their data. But dog people were a little more easygoing, and all the jobs that were dog jobs had higher gross profit on the. On the production side. So just kind of.

Kind of funny that. I'm proud. I'm proud, but also wanting, you know, making sure I'm checking my. Checking my bills.

That's right.

Yeah.

All right. Sticking to marketing. Stupid marketing mistakes. Things that annoy you when you open up your phone today or you see contractors driving down the road, Anything that jumps out from a marketing branding perspective that just drives you crazy right now. Mistakes, stupid things, whatever.

Poor targeting and poor offers, right? Free inspection, free estimate, right? Like. Like, that's not an offer. That's what everybody's doing, right? So trying to create real value, it has to have urgency, opportunity, Scarcity. Go read $100 million leads by Alex or Mosey and figure it out, you know, or anybody else who talks about, you know, who's reputable but, you know, poor offers, right? You got to have something that makes the customer say, I don't want to miss out on this postcard, this Facebook ad, this billboard, right? Having a good offer and then having good targeting, targeting the wrong people, Targeting outside of your target. Like just not knowing the platforms. They gotta know enough to be dangerous if you're gonna do it yourself. And you gotta manage the people who work for you. Because people who run ads make mistakes all the time, right? They're constantly in these platforms and simply a wrong number on a zip code or just not realizing that Louisiana is different than another state. Like the two letter digits, right? Like Wyoming, Wisconsin, or that's like simple errors, right? They could make Washington, Wisconsin, right? Like, like these things that all of a sudden now you got people advertising you're blowing money and you're not managing your markers. Like the last thing is like, you can't really see it outwardly, but it's the symptom disease thing. Like meet with your marketer once a week and focus on KPIs and optimization. Like, what are we doing right now to make this better? Because marketers get to set it and forget it thing, right? Like they just, they got 30 accounts. They can't give everybody an hour of their time every week because they also have to do their job. So they wait for the squeaky wheel and you just have to set the relationship terms early. And it's like, look, you're charging three grand a month. I want to make sure I'm meeting with you once a week for 30 minutes. How much now? 35. Done. Because that $500 will save you $50,000.

So how do you. For the person who's just trying to run their contracting business, they just want the phone to ring. They want to sell shit, right? Produce stuff and blah, blah, blah. And they're, they don't roll out of bed. Like you think in marketing and, and data. How. What do you tell that person? Like, how do you know you have the, the right or wrong marketing agency company? What are some indicators?

I mean, yeah, I mean if you're, if you're not getting out of the bed, the marketing. I'm thinking like you're talking like one, two million dollars contractors, like guys, three, three employees or less kind of thing. Three office employees or less. And they probably have more workers then it's true. You're probably not thinking about marketing because the guy who's five' ten, that's probably all he's thinking about. But those guys, you just want the phone to ring. We have to think in terms of. You have to look as if you're a $10 million company. So you have to do a few things right. Google my business has to be done right. So you got to have someone who can help you with that and you got to pay for it to be done right once. You don't have to continue to pay for that forever. Like that's a checkbox is like the also thing. It's like no pay for that to get done right. Then sign with an agency for A retainer. Your website does not have to have 73 pages. You don't need $20,000 a month in blogs, Right. Your website has to look like you didn't make it, Right. It's got to look like a good, you know, spend. Yeah, 10 grand, right?

Yeah.

And get a decent website. It doesn't have to be constantly updated. But when people look at you, they got to think they've, they showed up and made it made to look serious, right. And then from there, right, you know, you're not probably going to win on a lot of search engine pay per click type stuff. I would really be focused on direct mail, right. I'd really just be focused on direct mail or canvassing, you know. But direct mail, it's super effective for small guys because it's cheap. You spray and pray and then you just have to focus on your offer. Just do direct mail, find your ideal customer avatar, target those neighborhoods and you know, hit direct mail up. Because you can control your costs and you can run tests. But you know you're going to test with like 3,000 postcards, right? They got to think like that's what we're going to test with. But you know, you can create a very clear offer and get really good real business intelligence back and then just be consistent, just be consistent with it. Like, don't market when you don't have customers. Market when you have customers. And the last thing is like you're not again, you're not going to out. Those guys are out spending what you make a year in marketing. So you're not going to win on that. So you have to treat it your business and your customer like you're not ever going to get to advertise because the advertising you're doing isn't that effective anyway. So you treat your customers like fucking gold and just focus on referrals. Because if you can get a referral, referral from every single job and Google review from every single job, like, if you just treat it like you could. Marketing was now banned. And I mean like it was considered a poison to society. It was banned. What would you do? You damn sure. Make sure every customer told your, told their friends, right?

So that, that's an interesting thing you bring up because I talk a lot about, I've done trainings and talks and videos and episodes on. You got to market your business, you got to build your brand, you know, and that can look like a lot of different things. There's shit you have control over that you can do. There's things you could pay for and everything in between. And every now and then you get that guy who weighs in on the comment. You know, he's like, I've been in business 43 years and, and all my work is word of mouth. And it's. But he's still a one man show making 63,000 bucks a year and he's still got the tools on when he's 64 years old.

Right.

So it's.

And so you can't control what they say, who they say it to, when they say it. Like if they're saying, oh yeah, I talked to this guy, he was the cheapest. That's terrible marketing. Yeah.

So like I guess what's like every one of us, 100% wants the word of mouth referral lead to come in, but again, not always controllable. And so what's that balance that you would tell somebody? Because we both acknowledge, like of course you want the word of mouth. Right. But you gotta, if you have any ambitions of scaling your business and your team and getting the tools off, you're gonna have to spend some money. So what's.

Yeah, so now you're gonna have to.

How do you walk that line? Right?

Yeah. So I say that the next thing you do, right, is then you have to go to a target rich environment. Right. If you want to make a hot dog stand, make a lot of money, what's the number one most important thing? Stop the hot dog.

Hungry people.

It's hungry people, right? We've all heard that. So it's hungry people. Where do you find a starving crowd? Home shows. So you start by spending a big chunk of money at a home show and you make your home show booth the most fun booth in the whole thing. You appeal to kids, right? So have like the Las Vegas or the circus, the carnival, right. Some, some kind of theme to your booth yet, you know, get your logo, use ChatGPT, make your logo look like it's something on the Vegas sign. You get, you rent some stuff to make some games, you know, one of those like spinny roulette games or something or poker. And you, you give away card decks with your logo on them. And you, and you make it super fun for kids. You have cotton candy and you make it the most fun booth at that show. And just be memorable, just be memorable at the home show for the starving crowd that's come and look for your service. Don't talk about your products and your, you know, how great you are. Because that's what everybody's saying. Yeah, just be memorable and Give people a good experience at the home show that allows you to spend a good chunk of money to a starving crowd, that you get to try and become memorable. And you're going to get and just gather leads and phone people and try and follow up on those leads. Then you do that once or two times combined with some stuff like direct mail and yeah, you got BNI groups, but that's high effort and low output and all this kind of stuff. Right? But then that should get you a bit of cash flow. Right? And then once you have cash flow, then you have to say, okay, now I'm going to invest in marketing. And now is where you have to say I'm going to commit to spending 5% of my target revenue and as realistic that I could grow 20%, 30%. So I'm making 2 million a year and I want to make, you know, grow 50%. I want to do three. Well then I'm going to have to say I want to spend 5% of 3 million. I'd spend $150,000 this year on marketing. And then you work the community and you look for again, how would you hire a contractor? You look for referrals, word of mouth, recommendations, the same damn thing, hiring a services contractor in the marketing world. And you say who's going to help me spend my $150,000? The best. And you ramp it. So you start at maybe it's 150 over 12 months is what, like that's going to be, gosh, whatever, 60 grand a month.

A month or something. Yeah, something that's 12amonth. Yeah.

So now you're going to start with 6 and then go 7, then go 9 then go 12. Right. And you're going to ramp up, right, but and you base it on results and you have to again work with your agency weekly. Find somebody recommendable and you know, don't focus on the hoity toity stuff like long term things like SEO. That's when you want to build a moat around your business. Right. SEO is a good long term play and you should be investing in it. But at first you need cash flow so you're doing lead generation efforts right off. Take your offers that worked in direct mail. Conveniently, postcards are shaped like Facebook ads. So just run those as ads, right? And then pay per click Google guaranteed. Right. Get it or get it. Or you can go with lead aggregators, right? Like the Angie's lists and the thumbtacks and yeah, they're ripping you off and taking your money and you know, it's Competitive. So you got to have fast response times. So then if you're going that route, you got to invest in systems to make your calling people back in 3.5 minutes. Right. So when you look to scale, you have to kind of go from consistency to windfall to consistency. And it helps if you have a little bit of luck and you spend invest a little bit of time going from waking up not thinking about marketing every day, to waking up from thinking about marketing every day, you have to eventually make that switch because 40, $50 million guys, that's all they talk about. Right? Right. I want $300 leads that close at 30% at a 40% gross profit. And I'll spend to infinity if I find that.

So I got two more questions. One's piggyback on the marketing thing and the other I'll plant the seed for you now is you've got an audience of several thousand contractors here. I'm just going to ask you, what do you want to close out with for them? Okay, so that's the last question. So roofing, solar, not pet, pest control, those types of things are known for their canvassing and door knocking and stuff like that, where other trades are not. When I, one of my painting companies, at one point, I think I had four or five college guys out there in the summer canvassing. And over two summers I think we got one job. Okay.

Yeah.

And, and so, because I, I think I'm obviously biased, but I, to me it's interruptive, you know, it's, it's a very interrupted market interruptive marketing tactic that is not tied to something like roofing, where insurance is in play and energy bills and some things like that. Right. So. And I'm not an expert at all in the ice, I actually door knocked one day for an alarm company when I got out of the Marine Corps. And I said this, I am not doing that. So, so I'm just curious, like, do you. When I think of roofing companies, I think of, you know, I got a Buddy, he's got $75 million company, you know, he's highly tied in with the insurance world and things like that. Are there roofing companies that are crushing it, that are not playing the insurance game and are they doing the canvassing, having the same luck? I'm just curious what that.

Yeah, some are right.

And if you, and if you move to a new city tomorrow and started a roofing company, would you, would you go the insurance game and all that.

Or if I have, if I had no money? Probably, yeah. One thing about Roofing that people don't get is that they're spoiled, right? Like, you're like, there's not many industries in this world where you can, I mean, you want to open a yogurt shop, you're buying desks or like tables, chairs, bathroom, handicap bar. You got to pay paintings, signs, freezers, the spinny thing on the wall. Point of sale system. 16 year olds got to have licensing and permits and occupancy and food inspections. And then you got to get a parking lot and you got to pay for a lease the whole time. And after you spend $200,000, Susie and her kids walk in and spend 38 bucks, right? Roofing, if you can get a ladder stuffed into your vehicle and you can park it a block up the road, go knock on some doors, find somebody who will trust you, get them to sign a contingency out just through retail, get them to agree to get a roof from you. You can get the material. You get a $5,000 cash account at any roofing supply house. The subs get paid two weeks later. You can make 40% gross profit on $15,000 in 36 hours. Yeah, right. So if I was going to a new market, like, yeah, I mean, I don't know if I do insurance right away because I don't have the capital to float the jobs and wait for insurance to pay me. You might get like homeowners to pay. Like, you usually get a immediate first check. But you know, if you don't know the insurance game, like, that's a quick way to get your ass hound to you, right? Yeah, you. And you can sell anything door to door. If you're good at selling door to door, the tool doesn't matter as much as the process, and the process doesn't matter as much as adoption. But like, I mean, there's door to door coaches that go around selling no soliciting signs to prove a point. You know what I mean? Like, like, I mean they, they, there's. So there's. You can like, they go and sell stuff. But again, it matters how good you are at it. And most people, I bet when you went and sold door to door, they probably gave you three minutes of training. Here's a contract going outdoor. See if people sign it. Like, you got to be trained. But you're right, it is interruptive and it's not my favorite marketing method. However, it's the freest marketing method there is. But I also think that roofing has a bit of an advantage in that. Yeah, if you got the capital full of jobs and you got an insurance market. There's a huge need that you can see from the street. Solar. You kind of see it from the street. I don't know how pest control does it, but I think they go on volume. Right. But there's. And, like, you see more. Right. Camp political canvases. So there's an entire canvassing industry, and those people know how to do their job. Right. Like, it's storm season for canvassers because of all the political. But I think that could you. I mean, there's college pro painters. I think they do doorknocking, but it's not exterior painting, probably more so than interior. But if you're. It is a way. It is a way to make money. It's a hard way to make money. You're going to get a lot of people kicking doors in your face. You're going to knock 100 doors to get one to open, and that's when the game starts. So.

Right.

Right. It's not. It's like, it's not for the feeble, for sure. And most people don't give good training, so people who would otherwise probably be good at it don't get a chance to be good at it because no one gives them, like, the rundown. It's like, hey, you're knock 100 doors today. Every single person can be mean to you. Like, because I did it, I knocked doors and sold vacuum cleaners. Like, you know, I mean, like, I told him it was a $2800 air. Air purifier first. Right.

Oh, my God.

Free knife set. And then sometimes they chase you out with the free knife set. It was terrible way to make money. Right? But it's just. It's just again, it's like anything. It's. It's. How good are you at it? And I just. I agree with you, though. Like, if someone knocks on my door right now, I'm like, oh, man. Like, I'm. I'm gonna come up there and be a dick. So I'm like, man, I was on a good podcast. I was doing really good. Me and Tom were having a great time. I wasn't sure what it was, and now you're trying to sell me an alarm system. Like, get out of here. Right? Yeah, that guy's gonna go home, be like, I can't do this job. Right? And why? Because I'm pissed off. Like, so it's. It's. It's a mixed bag. But a lot of people, that's the only way they know how to make money. Is go. They say, you know what? I got two feet in a heartbeat, and I got a guy willing to pay me 10% of a $15,000 contract if I can get these people to do it. And then there's not. They have the. They have the juice to do it. Other people, you know, they couldn't do it to save their lives. But if you give them a warm lead, they'll go in, present the value, and excessive price, and walk out with a signed contract. And you can find more people like that. So you, as a CEO, it's your job to try and find your best approach to the market. And if you can't find. You haven't done door knocking. If you can't teach it, guess what? You got to find a way to get warm leads to your people and teach them how to present on value. Bam.

Yeah, it's. I used to have. I'm just. I'm reminiscing right now. I had those college guys that knocked for us, and then I would have my kids at the time. I'd take them on. On a Saturday morning. I'd drive in my company truck, and I'd have my two boys and my daughter, three of them on, you know, each side of the road, and they'd have our door hangers, and they would go knock on doors and hang it on there because nobody was mean to a little kid. But we did it on a Saturday morning because a lot of people were out doing yard work and stuff like that, so they would see us coming. And. And, dude, it's funny. My. My kids got me more projects than my. My four or five college guys ahead knocking doors. It's kind of funny.

Oh, yeah.

So, I mean, they could.

They could sell you on buying a chocolate bar when you didn't want to buy a chocolate bar. So don't count them out.

Well, my daughter was about right around a year old. I had this customer. She was totally pissed at our crew for something. She called me. She's like, you need to get right over here. And basically, you're an. And I hate you. And, you know, that was the. The vibe of the conversation, right? And I made a detour. I swung home and picked up my daughter. And she was a year old, and she's adopted from China. She's got two little pigtails, and she's in my arms, and I knock on the door. This lady opens the door all mad. She sees my daughter. She goes, oh, my God, you're the most precious thing in the world. Can I hold her? And problem Solved.

Problem solved.

So I have used my children several times through the years to. To get out of sticky situations.

They have a pretty good dad, and I'm pretty sure they got pretty well set up, so that's good for them.

So I was just trying to coach you up there and how to use Atlas in the future. It gets a little older, man.

I got to get him on content. People love dad version of Adam. It's actually really funny because people are like, this is. I. The whole joke went out around the week when he was born. This is like, this 100 irrefutable truth that Adam is not actually a robot.

Yeah, they change you, man. That's for sure. So in addition to where can people find you and what can you do for them?

What.

What do you want to close us out with? Something that maybe might be on your mind that we haven't talked about or something you want to reiterate? What do you got?

You know, you actually are fantastic interviewer, right? This is the second time you do a great job. Like, there's really nothing that I would want to add. Like, I really got to meander through a lot of, like, really good thoughts, and I think that, I mean, if people could just do what we talked about, I think that, again, the contracting space in America as a country would be better. But, you know, like, we. You know, my business, right? We just. We focus on being a consulting company that deploys the operating frameworks that we know work in the roofing industry, and then we build technology as infrastructure to support that, to make sure it's measurable and it can and it's consistent. And, you know, if they want to hear more about us, like, we try to be everywhere. So we have a YouTube channel. Right? We have our website. We do webinars, and. And I regularly go to conferences. At the end of the day, I love connecting and talking to people. So, you know, you can always hit me up on my personal Facebook at adamsat, because at the end of the day, my friends are few, My relationships in the industry are many, and I like to. I like to treat those relationships really well because, again, there's a mission behind what I'm doing that makes every connection worthwhile. So I'm happy to connect with anybody anywhere, whether they're paying me or not. I just want to. Again, I want to contribute, right?

Yep, Absolutely. What's your website?

Roofingbusinesspartner.com. there you go.

Keep it simple. Boom.

Yeah. Very simple.

Awesome. We'll make sure to drop that in the show notes and all that stuff, dude, it was. It was good catching up again. It's been a few. Probably four or five years, I think, and like you said before, it was kind of a different conversation. It was all geared around Facebook ads and some of that stuff, which I know we didn't get into. But bottom line here is, you know, I appreciate you sharing, you know, some of your wisdom. Like I said, I think before we hit record, I. I view you kind of as a mad scientist with things, which is a compliment. Like, it's. You're one of the first people I think of when I think, like, I need somebody who knows how to. How to fucking get data that matters. Like, that's just the brand you have built for me on the outside looking in. That's one of the things, like, I've. Because I've watched the journey through several years where you've kind of. You've kind of become a beast in that space, man. It's pretty cool to watch, so.

Well, I appreciate it. It's hard work, hard earned. I appreciate the opportunity to connect and. And of course, if there's anything that was of value to this, I. I hope that it helps the show, and I know it helps the people listening, and if they reach out to me, I. I'd love to talk.

You got it, man. We'll make sure to put all the stuff in the show notes. And guys, give us a rating, give us a review. And Adam sand, thanks for being on the show today, man. Appreciate you.

You.