What Takes to be a Great Leader w/ Jason Reisman | RBP Podcast EP. #24

But we're showing the community that this is more than roofing. This is a culture that we're growing here that's available. Like, businesses need to see this, like a place for people to strive and grow, and then they can handle these tasks because they're experts at it. Give them opportunity.

It's about the constant pursuit of perfection in your process. All right, welcome to another episode of the Roofing Business Partner podcast. We're at the Roofing process conference and. And I am super excited because I have one of my fellow idols and he's an awesome dude. He owns this Jason Reisman from Eustace Roofing. He gave me a shout out once on one of Dimitri's videos, and he was nominated for Roofer of the Year at the same time. And I was like, holy crap, I got that guy's attention. And so it is a huge honor to have you here, Jason. So thank you so much, my man. Go ahead and introduce your. For the two people in the world who don't know who you are.

Hey, guys. So I'm Jason with Eustace Roofing, and it's actually an honor because I consider Adam a friend. I consider him a mentor. I consider him the future of roofing. I mean, everything bundled in one is right here with Adam. I've been watching Adam probably, I don't know, eight years now. He inspired me. I'm definitely not on the level that he is, but he helps me get there. So I'm honored to be on here with Adam.

Well, thank you so much, man. So, I mean, my first interaction with. So I didn't. Because you were quite muted on social media for a long time. Like, you didn't have your name on there, you'd have your picture on there. Like, you were kind of dark mode when it came to Facebook. And when we first met or when I first interact with you, it was when Dimitri did his video and you had this, like, huge on site team in this gas station and this old metal shop. And it's like you have. You've taken the whole roofing thing to another level. But then you said that, like, oh, yeah, this is another one of my guys that believes in doing things with in house labor. And you're one of my guys. And it's like I was like, whoa, that's so cool. But you say that I inspired you, and I don't want you to. I'm not fishing for compliments here, but I think that maybe someone might benefit from knowing because they might want to be like you. You know what I mean, so they want to be like, well, what was. What was he inspired to do eight years ago that maybe makes up 1% of his success? And what could I do is like, that.

Well, I mean, eight years ago, I would say when you were talking, so I would get on Facebook or whatnot and see your videos and the things that you were talking about. You were talking about details, problematic areas on the roof, where roofers are going wrong and where you're solving those issues. We don't see that. Right. Roofers talk about, we have the best this, we have the best that, but they're not talking about the details of problematic areas that separate them from the rest.

And.

And you were. And so I'm like, man, this guy is awesome. And then you were talking also about your own employees. And I was looking at this like, wait a minute, what? Cause I thought I was the only guy in the country that was going through the pains that you go through.

You were. I'm in Canada.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, he's in Canada. Yeah. So maybe I was the only guy in the country, but I was. I had this. It related to me because I have W2 employees. 150 of them. They all work directly for me. And then I was watching your content, and your content was exactly how I felt. And it made it easier for me to talk about it. It made it easier for me to go on social media, develop my own page, and then say, hey, we're different. We don't subcontract. And here's why you started that conversation for me.

Well, and we have kind of continued that movement because that gentleman over there who's kind of in the audience, he actually is now doing W2 labor, is proud of it, and he's going through that challenge right now. He's got one and a half crews, and he's just going through the challenges of growing that and running, waking up and dealing with those guys and not just being able to hand off a work order to subs. And I truly believe the roofing company should roof. And then we have that other client you're on, the only one that I own, the continental US at the time was. But he was out in Hawaii. He's doing the W2 labor and the same thing. He's like, roofing companies should roof. And I know that not everybody believes in this, and it's something that, you know, you and I will probably die on the cross a few times over. No offense, but just like we've. We've. We champion this message, but what I Love about doing that, about that business method. What I loved about it was that I could talk about what I felt were the six veins of humanizing a company, which is people, product and process.

Right.

Highlighting your people, showcasing your products. You know, really introducing your process to the customer and showing them, like, this is how we set up a job for cleanliness. We. Or like your video where you review the. There's a video where you go over a metal roof and you're like, look at this craftsmanship, and you're walking up to the gable and all this kind of stuff. But then there's also, like, thought reversal, like challenging the misconceptions that people have about roofing or doing. Caught doing it. Right. Like, showing what happened, what went wrong, and what you did about it. And then like, giving pledges, getting involved in the community, which I know you guys do a ton of.

Yeah, yeah, We. We really fell in love with the community. We do a ton of events with it. And you know what that does. Is, like, we talked about today, that's going to. First of all, it's good for your soul. Right? We need to fill our soul because we're under a lot of responsibility. We're doing a lot of things. We're handling a lot of different occupations that we're doing, but be able to help the community feed your soul. But second of all, it brings you customers and it brings you employees. How do you set yourself apart where you can pick and choose your employees? There's not a lot of people out there that can say that they can get as much labor as they need. Like, we look at these guys as athletes, and we need to bring them on, and we have tons of guys wanting to work for us. So being involved in the community, doing those things, watching your videos, knowing that there's somebody else out there doing what I'm doing, and gave me the freedom to start talking about it. I think a lot of people are scared because what their competitors might say and the deal is, it doesn't matter what your competitors say. It matters what your customer thinks. And I think a lot more roofers would be successful if they start talking about the details, the problematic areas, because these large sales teams and these marketing companies that don't belong in roofing are taking over the market because we're not doing that. We need to remain the experts. We're the ones that know how to put the roof on. Why are we letting these marketing companies take over our industry?

Yeah, I think that it has to do with the fact that leadership is hard and leading sales guys is a lot different than leading an entire company. Right. Like, if you're leading a sales organization versus leading an HR department, hiring department, manufacturing, distribution, warehousing, installations, repairs, vehicle maintenance.

Yeah.

Like, now you're leading all kinds of different modalities and personalities and skill sets, and you're managing the resources of an enterprise. You're not just, like running a funnel. And I think that that level of leadership is hard to find. When I went out to your shop, I was like, you need to be in politics because we need more people like you influen influencing the world, not just the roofing. But that's the problem, is that anybody who's truly great at leading, when they look at the roofing industry, they don't see an example like yours. They see an example, like many, where it's just a sales organization. So that's what they aspire to be. And so elevating. Elevating you is what could solve a lot of that, which is that, you know, the guys who eventually start to think, oh, what's holding me back from my growth is that I'm still fiddling around trying to manage these roofers. I just got to. I got to elevate to a sales organization because look at them. That's what they do. It's not calling those guys out because those guys just did what was done before them.

And that is so good. That's a different perspective. And you're exactly right. Like, someone's got to be a leader in this. Someone's got to show the roofer to take back his market. And it's not hard to do because homeowners, customers. Yeah, take it back. Homeowners and customers want a really good install. That's really why they call for a roofing job. They don't want this amazing sales process, which is fine. And people are creating that for the roofer to compete back against these marketing companies. But we need to get back to what made us who we are, which is the install, and quit moving towards these sales teams and start selling the install. And that's why we're good at what we're doing. Like, sell what makes you good, which is the install. And what happens is roofers are so concerned about all the details on the roof, and they're spending all their time on that area that they can't sell. So how about grow your organization where there's people that have progress in your organization so they can take that over and then you can help build your company and you can compete against these marketing Companies.

Yeah. And it's not like, it's not like you're making sacrifices. Like I've, I mean, as you know, like we've kind of started working together as clients. I've, I've been in your business before. It's not like your net margins are lacking for a result of having these in house employees. Like you're killing it on those fronts. And you're, you have aspirational numbers, aspirational growth rates, and yet you also have the equity of 100 vehicles or something like that, like with giant Eustace signs on the side. Whereas like meanwhile, I mean, yes, the whole industry, 99% of it subcontracts and they found ways to, to do a good job. They found a way to do it, but it's not the future. I don't believe.

Right.

I believe the future will be building teams of people elevate. Because I don't think that this illegal labor thing is going to go under the radar forever. I think eventually we're going to have to fight for some and you know, we deal with a conservative audience. Right. So like talking about things like amnesty and whatnot tends to ruffle a few feathers. But at the same time we're also logical people. There's a lot of hard working people who've come to this country seeking the American dream. I am one of them. And I'm telling you, navigating the visa permanent resident citizen pathway which I'm currently in right now is incredibly difficult. I can't imagine trying to do it if my, my first language wasn't English and I wasn't like a halfway intelligent person.

Right.

Like if you're just a guy from another country like Mexico and you're coming here to escape an oppressive government with no opportunity, you're coming here for some Honduras or something like that, you know, and trying to navigate. Of course you're going to walk across the border. And these people are the backbone of these sales organizations, they're the backbone of the small business economy. I'm not saying we have to give them a free pass, but we have to give them a pathway to become legal, taxpaying citizens. And the only way that's gonna happen is if we penalize people who support the wrong way of doing it and if we give a success model for people who do it the right way. And I think that the issue is that we're not, we don't think in first order principles. We just. And what I mean by first order principles is like most people see an apple and they want an apple, so they go looking for an apple. And I don't mean apple roofing, I mean the actual physical apple. And if you want a. But if you want a apple, what you really need is a seed. Because a seed creates roots and a root creates this trunk and a trunk creates branches. And the problem is that the seeds of success that we've seen in this industry have all come from the need to adapt. Because we didn't have systems, processes and technology to do good field service management and we didn't have a way to create accountability. So we just said, oh well, I'm just going to give you a work order and you have to get it done for that much. And now I'm going to maintain profitability. And you combine that with a lack of natural leadership and you have just, you have 107,000 roofing companies that aren't being led by real leaders and that 80% of them don't deserve to exist. And that's a harsh thing to say. But you know what? 80%, the 80% that don't deserve to exist, they aren't happy not being successful because the majority of the industry is not successful. There's only a few use Dustin's Monarchs, guys out there that are built, these great 50 million dollar companies can buy a boat. You know what I mean? You can go buy a boat, you don't need a boat. It's not going to make you any happier to have another boat, right? You already have a pretty badass boat. Thank you for I got a ride on his boat. But you don't need another one, right? But you want to make your business run the way you always knew it could or should. And I believe that. And I'm really happy to see your example getting more airtime because I think that there are hard working leaders of roofing crews, guys who lead men through really hard days who could elevate, who could grow using your circumstances. An example that the roofer is not the second rate citizen of the roofing industry and the salesman is number one.

No, I totally agree. I mean we even have guys that are, you know, the industry is very unique. We have guys that are engineers from Columbia that are working on our crews. Like there's a lot of unique guys. This is a, this is an industry where people can make a really good living. And like I said earlier, we don't want to call this laborers, we want to call these guys athletes. But we also want to create a system where we can pay these guys, where they can become successful and what Roofing needs to understand this is a great market for those guys to find their way here, to grow in leadership. It's a great opportunity for me, for those guys that are coming to this country for the first time to show them the way, show them the American way. And we did that today. We showed that the American dream is possible.

Stephen. Yeah. With Stephen having a house, three kids. Right. He can barely speak, not barely speak English, but there was words like you could see like it's a second language. And he made a few mistakes, but he's living the American dream. He's got three beautiful kids, he's got a career, he's elevated up from positions and he has a home. Right. Which is like for many. That's the other. He came here and now he owns a piece of land. He has a piece of his American plot. Right. His homestead. And that's where his family tree is going to change. Yeah.

And we're a part of it. Right. But not only are we a part of it, but we're showing the community that this is more than roofing. This is a culture that we're growing here that's available. Like, businesses need to see this like a place for people to strive and grow and then they can handle these tasks because they're experts at it. Give them opportunity. Because Steven was a great example of that. The guy can run three roofing groups. Flawless. And he knows quality. He knows how to keep the quality. And they respect him because he knows how to put the roof on. And then the homeowner doesn't care how great his language is. They care that he's a professional, that he knows the product, that he knows how to install it. And they care that they know he's going to install an amazing roof for them because he knows what he's doing. I could hire just regular people to do that job that actually are clean cut, that meet the homeowner and. But they're not going to get the quality roof system. And then my guys aren't going to respect that. Right. We look across the roofing industry and that's exactly what we see. These clean cut guys that know nothing about roofing. Phil and Steven's job, what do you think that does to the guys that.

Put the roof on?

It's not going to grow, that it's not going to give the customer a product. That's great. Right. So Steven can do all of those things.

Yeah. And this is so like, for the guy that's out there that's maybe doing this on a smaller scale, like the gentleman over there, right, he's got one and a half crews, and I. And we're. We're helping him, so we're building his HubSpot and everything like that. And he's, you know, he's terrified because he's like, well, I'm not the best roofer that ever is. Like, I don't know how skilled. Like, would you. Like how, like, you know, would you say that you needed to be the best roofer in the whole company?

No, you don't need to be the best. You need to be involved. You need to know who is the best at your company. Like you. For me, I don't have to be a lifetime roofer to see which guy is detailed and does those. You need to spot that guy. You need to pull that guy aside. You need to learn from him and then grow from that. We have a ton of guys, 20, 30 years old or 30 years with the company that can install the most amazing, beautiful flashing. And those guys can teach you. But for me, I grew up in roofing, so I have a really good, firm grip on what. But now I've, you know, I don't do it every day anymore. So there's new techniques that are better. But there's a guy that works for you that's phenomenal. That's the guy that you need to grab onto and then have him train.

What was the hardest part about coming up through this when maybe you didn't have the recruitment pipeline that you have now? Like, because this guy who's got one and a half crews, like, he's like, some days he's got two crews, and some days he's got one crew with too many people because he's still growing this. And it's like, some days there's not the greatest profit because there's too many guys on the roof, and some days, you know, he doesn't have quite enough guys. And, like, have you experienced that? And what advice could you give him? Because that's what he's really looking for. And there's nowhere in the audit, in the. In the industry that he can get that advice.

You know, it's just like anything else. It's just continuing the process.

Like, I want to show him this podcast after, so I want him to listen to this part.

Yeah, no, I actually remember those days where I couldn't find help. I actually joined the YMC soccer team to find more help. Right.

Really?

Yeah. I joined the soccer team because we only had eight employees.

Ryan, get your soccer shoes.

Yeah, I was like, so how do you find somebody that shows up on time, that gives their heart, like on sports team, right? Like you got to be connected. Right. And so that I did that to begin with and I was so desperate, but I still, to this day, what you said is very interesting. I still have more guys than I need so that if someone doesn't show up, I can keep that consistency. At the end of the day, employees, team members, they're looking for consistency. Can you provide them a job every day? When you can accomplish that, you're going to win. Because most roofing companies will give a guy a job on Monday and maybe Tuesday, but maybe Thursday, but Friday we don't have any work for you. So the key is to build that customer base so that you have consistency when you bring somebody on. But also you start talking about employees and how amazing they are. Use that for your marketing to your homeowner. You're going to bring employees to you. I mean, that's what we've seen and that's what I talked about today. If you get it right, you're going to bring both people to you, the customer and the employee at the same time.

Now what do you feel comfortable with for a backlog in your business?

So that's changed a lot recently. So I like to be like three months out at one time I had it wrong and I was a year out. Like you sign a contract, it'll be a year before I put your roof on. So that's how I. So that was my first thing, right? Get a big backlog and then start learning how to hire people. But now we run about three months out and I'll tell you why we do that. So that we can build those permits up and have them ready and then we can put crews in certain areas so they're not running back and forth across town. Recently we were so efficient in the production that we were running back and forth across town, right. And so I found that it was actually beneficial to drop the price a little bit to stack up the permits so that we can keep guys in certain areas so they're not running all across town.

So making data driven decisions. I love it. Yep, that's perfect. And this is what I think that guys need to know is like that this can be done, right? It's like the four minute mile, right? The one guy runs the four minute mile and then all of a sudden 15 people the next year do it, but nobody did it fore. Right. And it's like there needs to be more of that. So it sounds like Everything's perfect. To use this roofing now. There's nothing else needs to be done?

No.

So what does the future look like?

So, you know, we're. We're a large roofing company right now, but what I realized is I can't grow at this point. We can. I just. I want to grow better. And that's why I hired Brian that works with you, that's part of your company, to help coach me and give me processes and procedures to help me to the next step. And I think that's super important, because.

You look at a guy like me.

And you think, all right, he's got it figured out. He's got a $30 million roofing company. But I still have work to do. And I think guys that are making big changes in the roofing industry realize that they still have work to do. And that's why I hired your company to help me do that, to reach the next step. My main thing is to change the lives of the people who put the roof on, because I fell in love with those guys and their culture and how they work. That's my passion, is how do I elevate those guys? Just like right now, I open up another location. The reason I open up another location is not for me. It's because I have guys that are so freaking talented that work for me. If I don't create somewhere for them to go the next step, they're gonna go work for somebody else and do it.

Yeah. If you. If your vision doesn't expand to create enough room for the vision of those people underneath in your company to fit theirs into, then they will leave.

Yeah. I mean, they're going to grow or.

They'Re going to go. Yeah.

I've got guys right now that can run their own roofing company. They have all the tools, everything to do it, and they're going to. But if I can give them, hey, here's a branch over here. This is your baby. Let's do this together now. That's the way to do it.

And you have the army. Like, you have bench strength. That's the great thing about your company. Like, you have. You have guys wearing your jersey, casting your flag like you have an army, and that's a moat that you've built around your business at this point. That the same thing exists for my client in Hawaii. They've got an army of people that are recruiting every day. You know what I mean? And they're wearing, like, they got the Capilli logos on site, the Capilli trucks on site. The capilli shirts on, you know, they got. When the drones fly over it, it's Capilli hats, it's Capilli shirts. It's. Everything is showing the brand. It's the same thing for you that E is all over your neighborhood. Like, everybody knows that you exist. And I really appreciate you talking about Brian because, I mean, I'm really lucky and fortunate to have him. He was a guy that we worked with, sold his roofing company, and then he was just like, man, I had so much fun with that. And at this point, he's not like, Oprah rich, but he's able to, like, you know, house is paid off, debts paid off, cars paid off. Like, he's good. You know, kids are good. Like, he knows he's kind of set. And it's like, I just really loved working with you. I'd like to continue doing it. I was like, I would love to have a person who's been on the other side of the transaction being here helping my customers. And he's been an absolute gods. And so I'm really happy that he's helping. That makes me. That makes me feel really good. Because, I mean, to see that my people can help. The people that I, like, have been friends with, that I've idolized, that I've looked up to, that I've seen their companies and been like, see, I'm not the only person talking about this. Here's another person who's successful doing it. And having you champion the things that I believe in this world to be true, to be able to help you in any way is a huge honor.

Yeah. You gotta know where your limits are. Right? Like, I know where my limits are. I know that I'm a macro guy. And that Brian that works for you is a micro guy, right? Yeah.

It's very, very helpful for me in that way as well.

Yeah, I know that. And I know that you have vision, and I watch what you do because I know that that's some of the stuff that you're talking about is stuff that I want to accomplish, but I know that I have limits. So I need to reach out to other people that have that. Being a leader means you need to find people smarter than you or surround yourself with people smarter than you. And that's exactly what I'm doing. And somebody that holds you accountable. I mean, Brian holds me accountable.

I know you're telling me to tell the story about the text message. That was hilarious.

Yeah. So it's not often that somebody's holding me accountable. Other Than a customer. Right. Like, a customer can definitely hold me accountable. But so I was on a call with Brian, and I'm really bad about, like, texts. I get tons of them all the time, and I'll read it, and then someone will come in my office and start talking to me. And I'm like, ah, I lose where I was at. Right. Like, many hats. And then Brian said, hey, listen. And my sister was actually in the room when I was on a zoom call with him. And he said. He said, here's how this is going to work. If I text you, I expect a text back. And I was like, boom. And I was like, I can hear.

His voice saying it. Yeah.

I was like, send me a contract. I'm ready to work with you.

Well, that's awesome, man. Well, you know what? Like, I mean, when it comes to the roofing industry, like, how much do you want to hear from the rest of the industry? Like, do you. Do you want. Like, do you want, like. Because you have the booth here, it seems like you're really trying. Well, it actually looks like it's taken down now, but you had the booth here. Like, it seems like you're really wanting to connect with more people in the industry. And you just said you're very busy. And how. How do you do that? How or how can people connect with you if that's something you're looking for doing?

Yeah. So you can. You can reach me on social media. I also have a new site set up where somebody that schedules, like, if you need a coaching call or anything like that, or if you have some questions. We're trying to help other roofers because, honestly, we want this to grow. We want roofers to take back their market. We want to take these sales marketing teams, let them teach you how to do really good at it, but not come in and claim that they're roofers and sell roofs that they don't know what they're doing. Like, I believe that roofers should come back to the industry and take it over and push those guys out. And if I can help, I love to help. I believe that we have a really good system. And even after talking to you today, like, I didn't realize that that is a thing of the past. And we can change that and maybe I can lead that, but I want to help roofers because I banged my head on the desk all the time and I couldn't figure out. I mean, there were years where I wasn't profitable. I mean, I didn't know I was still paying off the equipment. That's the key. Like, I was always paying off equipment and not acquiring debt. But there were years where, you know, I didn't understand things, and it would take so long before I got to where I needed to be. If I can help somebody change that, I want to do that, man.

Okay, well, we're going to drop the link to that in the show. I'll get that from you. And I want to make sure that people, especially the guys out there who believe in championing that roofer, the roofing people, taking back the industry from the salespeople. I think that's a message that we need that healthy balance. And I. I mean, I'm working with a client right now that I. I absolutely want. Ryan, I hope you listen every minute of this, rewinded it and listen to it again, and I'm going to get you that website and you're going to talk to Jason because it's like, honestly, man, you're. You're a model. You're a role model for many, and I really appreciate you being here.

Thank you. Happy to be here. I call you a friend.

Yeah.

Thank you.