From the Curious Encounters of Forensic Psychiatry to Cruise Ship Speaking with Rhona Morrison - 298

Hello, you're listening to Sarah Archer and episode 298 of The Speaking Club podcast, and I want to open this show with a quote from American writer Walt Whitman: Be here, not there. Be now, not then. Be curious, not judgmental. I started this podcast for 2 reasons. Because I want to help people recognize the power of stories and humor in speaking, and because I believe it's your message that counts, not the number of ums and ahs you use. There are some organizations that want to create robot speakers. They want you to sacrifice your personality in order to speak perfectly. I want to let you know that you can be yourself and a sensational speaker. So if you want to be a speaker that connects and engages authentically, Through stories, a speaker that gives value as well as a great performance, then welcome home. Hey, welcome to the show. I hope that you are well. I am very well. Thank you for thinking that question if you were. It's great to have you here. For everyone watching on YouTube, fantastic. If you like the show, do subscribe. And if you're listening to the audio on a podcast or other provider, podcast app or other provider, Great to have you listening in too. So I want to start the show by asking a question. Have you ever dreamed of turning your experience, your knowledge, your wisdom into a new career as a speaker? Well, that's exactly what my guest, Dr. Rhona Morrison, did. She is a retired forensic psychiatrist, I didn't know what that was until I got the lowdown from Rhona in the interview, and you'll find all about that when we get cracking. And she worked in the NHS for 32 years. Now, the NHS, if you're watching from outside the UK, is a medical service in the, in the UK, and she worked there for 32 years, and then she left and she wrote her first book called I Don't Talk to Dead Bodies, which is a curious title, and you'll find out all about why she called it that as we get going. Now, the book takes you sort of beyond the sensationalist news headlines to show you just what happens in a world where mental illness can make sometimes good people do bad things, and Rona shares her experiences that are often funny, often bizarre, but, you know, always thought-provoking, in the book and in her talks, of delving into the minds of real offenders that she worked with as that leading forensic psychologist. She was born and bred in Scotland from a working fast-class family. She's grounded and she's got a wonderful sense of humour. I know that you're gonna really enjoy listening to her and all her stories. So she's going to share in the show about her writing journey, and then how she transitioned from psychiatrist to author and then from author to cruise ship speaker because I, you know, I don't know if you know, if this was even on your radar, that cruise ship speaking was another option for speaking. You get different types of cruise ship speakers and we'll talk about that and I'll probably do a separate show around this subject, this topic, for the future. Okay, that's enough from me. Let's shift over to my interview with the wonderful Dr. Rhona Morrison. Welcome to The Speaking Club, Rhona Morrison.

Thank you for having me.

I, I'm really, uh, chuffed that I could get you on the show because we had a very narrow window before you're off gallivanting around the world, and more on that in a bit. But the other big reason that I wanted to get you on the show was to talk about your book and your message around what you've done as a career for, for, you know, a big part of your life. Now, your book is, is called I Don't Talk to Dead Bodies, which is a great title. Can you tell us why it's called that and what it's about?

So, um, the book is a medical memoir. So I was an NHS consultant for over 30 years in Scotland, and I was a forensic psychiatrist. And a forensic psychiatrist is a medical doctor who specializes in psychiatry and then subspecializes in mental illness in relation to crime. So it's not about been at scenes of crime, you know, you hear forensic, you think CSI. A psychiatrist on a roadside with a dead body, it's a bit late. So when I was lecturing to students, I would always explain the forensic psychiatry. The forensic was to do with giving expert opinions to the court about maybe murderers, rapists, that sort of thing, to find the tiny, tiny percentage of people who may have a mental illness which has actually directly caused them to offend. And so, and I worked in prisons and whatnot and secure hospitals. And so I used to say, I don't talk to dead bodies, so to get rid of the CSI forensic link. And so I just thought that's— I used to say it in lectures and it's quite a catchy title. I think it makes you think, what's all that about? So, so it's a medical memoir and its subtitle is The Curious Encounters of a Forensic Psychiatrist because it's all that small anecdotes, storytelling. hopefully funny, bizarre, strange to hook the reader in. But the idea is to have a much more positive message about destigmatization of mental illness once I've hooked them in. So quite a long answer, but hopefully that sets the scene.

Yeah, absolutely. And I had a question which I was going to ask later, but I think is appropriate to ask now, which was, um, I was like, huh, if they've already committed the crime, like, what are you trying to find out? And I think you just answered it for me. So it's basically when it comes to prosecuting that individual, it's actually being really clear about whether this was someone who is in their right mind and it's a, it's a crime versus someone who this, this incident was caused because they have a mental illness. Is that the main thrust of things that you did, or is there other stuff?

No, so the expert opinions were a tiny part of it, but the idea was, um, if for example someone committed a murder, yeah, and they're routinely seen by 2 psychiatrists to make sure they're fit to plead in court, they understand the process, but if during the course of the assessment we discovered that they had killed the postman because they were hearing voices telling them that the devil was coming to rid the world of evil and that they had to kill the devil and the postman was the devil. So they attack directly linked to the symptoms in their head that they're experiencing. They've still committed a murder. They will need to be locked up somewhere safe for public safety. But if it's an illness-related crime, very serious illness, not, I felt a bit depressed today, you know, something really acutely psychotic, then what happens is they would go to a secure hospital rather than a prison. Um, and they would be treated because the, the risk of offending is linked to their illness. So you need to treat the illness to reduce the risk of future offending. So I tended to see people, and if they were ill, they would go to hospital. Sometimes I looked after them in hospital, but I worked in the community predominantly. So I would see them when they eventually— and it might be years later— would come out. They have the same illness.

Right.

It might recur because it's a relapsing illness. You can't cure psychotic illness, you can treat it. But if they were to have a relapse, you have to monitor really closely and bring them back to hospital, change their medication, whatever, to protect the public and them from reoffending. So my role was to find them, treat them, and rehabilitate them. So the ongoing thing is really important to reduce future offending. Does that make sense?

Yeah, absolutely. So would you do the rehabilitation while they were in the hospital as well as when they came out, or would that be someone else's job?

So it depended where you worked. At one point, I worked in the state hospital at Carstairs during my training, which is where they would go. That was the high secure hospital. Laterally, I was working in the community predominantly and in prisons doing clinics. So in the community, I would do all of that. And if I had to recall them to hospital, one of my colleagues, I would admit them under their care and then take them back when they were stabilised. So we all had a role to play at different levels of security.

Interesting.

Cool.

And I, I don't think people know very much about this avenue at all. It's really interesting. Now, you mentioned that one of the big messages that you wanted to get out through the book was the sort of destigmatization of mental illness. And I've got the book and I've, I've been reading the book and a golden thread, it seems to me, throughout your book, through your life and career, is this non-judgment, this, this concept of non— or this practice of non-judgment. And you give your sister Vivian credit for gifting you that, in a sense. And I, I'd like to know more about how she influenced you, but also Whether you think this is a quality, a skill, or a choice in terms of this being non-judgmental.

So my sister— I'm the youngest of 3, and my sister was born, and in old money, my parents were told she was deaf, dumb, and blind, mentally handicapped, and physically handicapped. None of that is PC terminology, but that's what they were told. My sister was in care all of her life and, um, couldn't sit up, she couldn't speak, she couldn't see us. We didn't know if she could hear us. I think she could hear a little bit, but not to communicate with us. And we'd visit her every week, and we didn't know if she knew we were there, but I loved her just because of who she was, and she was my sister. There was a very strong bond, and I didn't judge her for her disability. I just loved her for who she was. And I think that affected a real core value in me about just valuing the person. And so when it came to working with offenders, I mean, I think it's not a job for everyone, you know. Not everyone could work with someone who's raped a child, murdered a pensioner. I mean, that's the reality of it. And get caught up in the offence bit of it, you would struggle to manage the person.

Mm-hmm.

Um, I didn't ignore the offence because I had to manage the risk and reduce the risk of it happening again and address that, etc. However, my, my skill was to see the person and to say, this is someone's son or daughter, whether they've got a mental illness whether they've committed a heinous crime, whatever, it's someone's son or daughter. How would I want my son or daughter to be treated if they find themselves in that circumstance? And for those who are mentally ill, you know, who didn't have an inherited— hereditary mental illness, they didn't ask to get it, it was missed. So they got ill and, you know, responded to the symptoms, then they deserve to be treated and get better and try and have some sort of life. despite an ongoing illness that has to be managed. And the stigma, the stigma of what's happened is crippling. You know, I think that's an issue for the press as well, because the sensationalist headlines you get with these psychotically driven crimes are horrendous, and then it impacts the judgment of everyone in the community. It's a much harder hill to climb.

I think in some senses there is a a stripping of humanity in the way some of these people are presented. And it feels like that's what you were trying to focus on, is, is, is the humanity that was there.

Um, uh, yeah, so I had the privilege of working with them really closely, and I got to know the person and the family often, and, um, and, you know, the human being behind the headlines, really.

I guess, what was— was that the driving force for writing the book? What made you write the book? What was the sort of— you thought, ah, yeah, what was the trigger for it, if you like?

Again, not a straightforward answer, but I thought I might write down some of the stories from my career, a kind of legacy piece for the kids, really. And then sadly, I was due to retire early on my 55th birthday. Um, from the NHS. And what happened was a few months before I was due to retire, my husband was diagnosed with multiple brain tumors. And on my actual birthday and retirement date, my husband died the same day.

Oh no.

And so the future that I had planned was up in the air. Um, and I thought, okay, I'm quite a kind of extrovert, solution-focused, positive person. I just thought I'm still here. I need to grab life and live it. I'm here. You don't know what's around the corner, so you need to live life every day. And I had said I'd thought about writing the book, and I'd almost started writing some things down when I was caring for my husband because he would sleep a lot. And I thought, you know, I could actually maybe do some good rather than just writing it down. Maybe if I actually shared these stories, I could— although I'm not working anymore, I could continue to have a positive impact for the of community of people who suffer from a mental disorder. And so, so I decided I would write a book, um, and that was how it kind of came about. And then we'll go on to what happened next, but a little bit later. But, um, it just all kind of— it was an opportunity and I just took it and I went and I ran with it. And I think that's what people should do in retirement. That'd be my message, um, grasp it with both hands and go for it.

What strikes me is Your resilience and your, like you mentioned, your optimism. And I know we're gonna talk about your sense of humor and, and there's a, a sort of light energy that comes from you. And it's so interesting because it feels like you've had so much darkness in your career, you know, and then having that happen to you, but being able to see it as a catalyst for, you know, grabbing life. A lot of people would have had the opposite, you know, taken the opposite path. Is, you think that's all linked in terms of, you know, the way that you're able to view the situation? Is it, is it down to you as a person? You know, Vivian's influence again, the training, how, how would you say That, you know, that's so strong. Why, why is that?

I'm not entirely sure. I didn't quite answer your first question about Vivienne. I think, I think being non-judgmental is a choice. It's a core value for me because of my own experience, but I think if you become informed about any particular topic rather than just making assumptions about it, then hopefully you're more enabled to make a positive choice like being non-judgmental. And so hopefully reading the book, people will maybe just question their mindset if they have had a negative mindset or been judgmental. But I mean, I'm quite an extrovert, and I get my energy from social interactions. So sitting at home moping after a bereavement would not have been my coping strategy because my energy would just have gone.

Yeah.

And so seeking out social contacts and opportunities to talk and whatever— I think out loud. I don't prepare something and then share it, it surprises me sometimes what comes out of my mouth, which is quite interesting. But the social contact, I think, and my own personality, I think, has driven the choices I've made. Interestingly, I'm writing book 2, which is from the point of the day that my husband died, when I retired, because that was the end of a chapter in my life. And the next bit obviously covers how I've dealt with bereavement, but a lot of it's to do with challenging myself with retirement and making the most of it. But you've got to balance that because people, some people are more introverted and they need time on their own to recharge their batteries. I need to be out there to recharge mine. So, um, it's acknowledging it's not one size fits all. We're all different and you have to find your own path. But just, I think hopefully the message is about being hopeful that, you know, it's not the end, it's the start of a new beginning and you have to embrace it.

Brilliant, brilliant. I love that. Well, I will look when book 2 comes out, we'll have another chat and talk about that a bit more. Now, one of the things that I wanted to pick up on, um, before we make a slight shift is, um, in your book you talk about, and I think this is when you were doing training, um, of upcoming, um, psychiatrists, was around the difference between dot-to-dot psychiatry and the art of psychiatry. And I wondered if you could explain the difference, um, for me.

So this is— this will be copyrighted to me because it's not a thing, it's just how my head works. And just, just for clarity, um, so in medicine generally, um, they have— there's so much research, you know, into the effects of drugs and, and following different diagnostic categories and how they respond to different interventions. There's a lot of guidelines now about When you've got these symptoms, you treat it with that, and then this is the outcome. And if that doesn't work, you try something else. So in psychiatry, I think that's a bit like dot-to-dot medicine. So yes, you're trained as a doctor, but you're being forced into following guidelines for a good reason. There's evidence base and they're safe, etc. However, psychiatry doesn't quite work the same in my view. We're encouraged to follow guidelines, and that would be the dot-to-dot psychiatry reference that I made. But I think the art of psychiatry is not about knowing the dot-to-dot guidance. Yes, you use that at some point, but actually it's all based on taking a history. And, and in taking a history from someone, you might be at the GP for 10 minutes, but you might be at me for an hour and a half. And I don't have blood tests or X-rays which will help me make the diagnosis. They will help me rule out a brain tumor or an overactive thyroid causing you to be anxious. But actually, the skill is the history taking. And if you don't pick up all the symptoms, then you will not make the right diagnosis and the right treatment plan. And I think the art of psychiatry is actually engaging people in talking to you, trusting you, and feeling safe to actually tell their story. And I think you find where your skills are. That was my skill. I'm not an academic. I couldn't quote you chapter and verse on anything or the up-to-date treatment of X, Y, and Z. but I was good at taking a history and getting people to trust me. And just one example, you know, if you ask with offenders, their presenting complaint to the doctor is the offence. That's why they're there. And their lawyers often said, don't say a word, don't admit to anything. So some offenders, in case they dig a hole and land themselves in it. Yeah, yeah. So sometimes they just clam up and say, I don't want to speak to you. And so I would always start by, instead of going to the offence first, I would say, well, you don't have to talk about the offence if you don't want. That's fine, that's your choice. I'm interested to hear about you as a person and hear what's happened to you in your life from when you were young, because there are certain things that might have happened which influence how you respond later on in life. Often they would agree to that because they're off guard, because they're not at the offence bit when they've not to talk about it. Yeah. And so I would get all the information about drug taking and weapon carrying and gang membership and all sorts of things before we got to the offence. So when you get to the offence and they go, wasn't me, I don't carry weapons, I don't take drugs, I already know, they've already told me everything. So, and then if you're asking about, do you ever carry weapons, you know, quite often they'll say no. But if you say, did you ever have to carry weapons for protection? That for protection opens a completely different door, because in their environment, it might well be that if you were in a gang, you had to carry a weapon, and it was sort of socially acceptable. So saying for protection, I would get more about the weapons they carried than my colleague who interviewed them half an hour before. Just the art of how you ask the question, you know, or they might say the socially acceptable. carry a knife. And that's— and they'd tell me that, and I'd say, anything else?

Nope.

I mean, I was just thinking baseball bats, golf clubs, machetes. And the minute you said it, they'd go, oh well, well, well, maybe, yeah. And they would tell you more. So there was the art bit, is about the actual skill of taking a history and the trust thing. And that, see, that's what I think I was good at. And working in the community with people long-term for maybe up to 20 years, seeing them for 20 years, monitoring them. you were in their house, you know, and they might be using drugs, they might have weapons. You needed to have a trusting relationship.

Mm-hmm.

And if they became psychotic, you had to be in the house when they were agitated, paranoid, and talk about changing their medication or actually getting them into hospital. And you had to have— they had to trust you enough to know, I've hit a barrier, Dr. Morrison says I need to go in. And they sort of trust you enough to, you know, you built that relationship over months and years. So, so you get them in. So that's a long answer.

No, it's brilliant. It's a huge skill. And I love that, that storytelling, uh, came through in terms of you creating the space for them to share their story. But also, you know, your ability to tell stories comes through too. And I was just— some of the situations that you found yourself Over, over the time of your career. I'm like, oh my goodness, like being able to manage that and manage them. Like, I remember you talking about the, the guy who came in with his weapon and his— he couldn't bend his arm. And could you share some of the situations and what— how you approach that in terms of bringing them on side and, and calming things down?

Well, that particular instance, I was a trainee forensic psychiatrist. I was a qualified doctor, but I was training in that specialty. And, uh, I was in the outpatient clinic, and a new referral. He had been referred with being paranoid, personality difficulties, anger problems, um, substance misuse. And he came along, and, you know, I did the, hello, I'm Dr. Morrison, pleased to meet you. I'm wondering, I've had a letter from your GP, but I'm wondering why you think you're here? And I was hardly into it, and he was kind of, you know, skinhead, you know, sort of scars and things. And he wasn't making eye contact, but I couldn't, I couldn't take my eyes off one arm because he had one arm that was completely rigid, it wouldn't bend. And I thought, that's very strange. And I was really distracted, so I said, excuse me, I'm really distracted. I noticed that you're not bending your arm. I'm wondering whether you've got something down the sleeve of your anorak. And he went, yeah. And I said, what is it? And he went, machete. So I'm sitting in an interview room with an aggressive, paranoid, drug-using man with a machete. So what do you do? And so what I said was, now look, you've come here for management of your anger, to get help with that. We're going to be discussing some issues which might raise emotions for you. It's not safe for me to be in a room with you if you've got a machete and you get angry. But I don't— you're here to get help. I don't want you to cause an offence, because if you assault me, you'll be in prison and I won't be able to help you. So we need to come to an agreement that if you're going to come and see me, I'm not doing anything today, but you need to agree that in future you don't bring the machete. And again, some people think I was terrible, I should have phoned the police or whatever, but actually that was a client group I was seeing all the time. So, you know, you had to be able to work with them, in my view. But the other thing is, in the context of the person behind the story or the machete, is a person who's living in a deprived housing estate where there are gangs, he's a drug user, he owes money, his name's on a hit list for a drug dealer, he's not going to go out of the house without a weapon. That's kind of the norm for where he lived, that was his context. We had to put boundaries around our context in the hope that we could reduce his paranoia and help get help with the drug problem and, uh, subsequently reduce the carrying of weapons, etc. Um, so it's more of— it's just a practical thing, but trying to see the person in context and think, well, he's not brought it along to attack me, I'm not a threat to him.

Yeah.

But actually still got to manage the risk and say, look, there are boundaries, you know. So that, that's one example. The other examples that you may have come across in the book, I don't know if you've got to them yet. I've got a stalker, uh, so I discovered I had a stalker mid-lecture in a school when it interrupted it with a walkie-talkie under the grand piano. And, you know, at the end of the day, despite having a stalker, reporting it to police, going to court, all that, I still requested he got a psychiatric assessment because I knew him from 10 years before. And I knew it was important to make sure he wasn't ill for my benefit, because if he's ill, I would like him treated. Thank you.

Yeah.

And for his benefit, if he's ill, he needs treatment. So I had to, you know, you suspend the victim and the psychiatrist bit because I had 2 hats on. And so that was seeing the person but also looking after my own.

Yeah, so what happened? Is it all right now? Have you still got them?

He was convicted of stalking in the civil courts and the criminal courts, and there's a 5-year non-harassment order, and I'm on the police computer thing, so if I phoned from the house, it would alert people. But I'm retired now, so I'm not in the area where he is, so it's fine. There's not been any problems.

Oh my goodness.

There were about 200 videos on YouTube prior to me discovering that I was the focus of his attention. So, um, yeah, so that was quite disturbing even for me.

So imagine, oh my gosh. Okay, well, I mean, the other thing that shines through when I talk to you, because we talked before, uh, uh, shines through the book and, and your anecdotes, uh, and, and how you handle situations and your ability to you know, to almost keep that distance in some senses, um, is your sense of humour. Did it help you in the job? How would you have coped without it, do you think?

Um, it definitely helped me. Um, I think people choose different lines of work, you know, um, and forensics is quite an extreme choice in psychiatry. I would say it's probably the most risky. Um, so you have to de-stress in some way. So we were very fortunate in that we started our team from scratch. There was no team. I argued for the funding and we started it. So we were able to employ all the staff. We didn't inherit anybody. So we employed good people with the right skill sets and personalities and whatever. And also we did a lot of training and investment. And the whole time I was there, the team stayed together for 20 years. People we had who came to train with us came back and we grew the team. But, but we were— we had a team who were very tight and had a skill set, and there was a lot of camaraderie and support. I think testament to that is I retired 6 years ago, and before I retired, my team took me away for a long weekend, you know, in a lodge with a hot tub and all the rest of it. And we enjoyed it so much that we've been every year since, with exception of COVID obviously. But we go every year for Friday to Monday, and we book a lodge, and we just have fun. And We have— most people have now retired or moved on, but that core group have stayed together as friends. And I think that's the humour. There was a lot of sort of black humour that you get with medicine sometimes, but it was like, it was a key, you know. We tried to be down to earth with patients, talk their language. We were there for them. We didn't just go and give them medication and check up on them and detain them under the Mental Health Act. If their kids were needing to go to child psychiatry and they were too unwell to take them, our nurses would take them. If their partners were dying, we'd take them up to see them in the hospice or whatever. We did all this stuff to build relationships, and the patients— we weren't just there to administer medication. And because the relationships are key when it went wrong, when they were less well, that really— they felt, this team's for us, you know. We weren't there just to—

Yeah.

I mean, someday one of our nurses turned up at a new patient's home, and there was no carpets, no cooker, nothing. And it was a horrendous situation. The second visit, she turned up with a microwave and homemade beef olives. And that, that was the key. That patient would have done anything for us because we were there for him, not just—

Yeah, yeah.

You know, the people that gave him a jag in the bottom once a month, you know. Not every team, you know, they say that's a bad use of time, etc. It was absolutely key. Relationship building and communication was, was core. And so the, the humor bit was just part of it. It's how we cope when we had a difficult day.

You know, and there was something about your retirement as well and cakes.

Yes, so that's— this is a good example, I think, in terms of when you're trying to hook an audience in and you're telling them stories. The story links to an offender, but when I retired, most people get a retirement cake, you know, roses and happy retirement. I got a box of cupcakes and like they had like a dagger, handcuffs, all sorts of things, stories from my career. But I defy anyone else to have had a cupcake with male genitals on it for their retirement. But I did get the male genital cake, and it linked to a famous story in our team when myself and a female social worker were interviewing someone who'd been charged with a sexual offence, a young man. We didn't know him, and I was taking a history. But what happened was we borrowed a room, thinking of the patients near their own home so they're more likely to come. So it wasn't our office, it was a long rectangular office.

Oh, no.

2 seats and a desk at one end, a door and a seat at the other. We're always told you must sit near the door so you can get out in a hurry. The way the room was laid out, it was either one of us sitting at the far end rubbing knees with a sex offender, which was not comfortable for him or us, or he sat at the door and we sat— we couldn't change the layout, so we sat with the offender at the door. I'm taking a psychiatric history. It was a sexual offence, so I was taking a sexual history I'm asking him all about masturbatory fantasy, as you do, you know, your day-to-day work. And he stood up, dropped his trousers, and started masturbating. And he had looked really distracted throughout the interview, as if he was, you know, responding to something, you know. And I'd been thinking, I'm not going to do a report for court, I'm going to admit him to hospital and assess him and then do it, because I think he might be ill. It wasn't blatantly, you know, he wasn't telling me he was hearing voices, but he was He seemed to have thought disorder. So anyway, so when this happened, I turned to the social worker and I said a number, which was the detention number under the Mental Health Act, and she went, yeah. So she'd been thinking the same. So we just had to get out. We had a bit of shenanigans getting out and phoning the police and all the rest of it. Anyway, uh, so I decided— so they'd got this cake to remind me of this incident. He went on to do incredibly well under treatment as an inpatient under my care, and then as in the community for years and years. We monitored him because it was a schizophrenic illness and it was, it was going up and down, you know, you have to monitor it closely. And he was on the sex offender register, etc. And, uh, so that was fine. Um, but anyway, subsequently I've been doing talks about it, about my career. I quite often show the picture of the cakes, um, and then say, I mean, they gave me this, and if I can, I've got a prop, and I'll, I'll take the take the wrapper off and go, I mean, did they want me to? No, I'm not gonna eat it. I don't know what they wanted me to do with that. But, but then I tell the story about him and how, and how well he did with treatment. And I didn't judge him for the offence. I charged him. We went to court. He got charged again for offending against us, um, because you have to put boundaries. That's not appropriate. And he was charged, but he came into hospital and we treated him and we monitored him, and he did really, really well. And this sort of update in the story is I did a lecture at a charity Just a few months ago, and he turned up at the lecture. He's living in the community and doing really well, and he turned up to see his doctor, and I thought, that's so nice. He came up and spoke to me at the end, so that was really—

But did you tell that story in the lecture?

I was very careful because the lecture was in the area where I used to work, which I don't usually lecture there. So I had said, um, can I see the guest list thing? Because it had been so popular, bizarrely, that they'd had to ticket it. So she had a list, and I didn't recognize any names, but I was very careful about the choice of anecdotes I was going to use anyway, but some people turned up without a ticket, and I was sitting in the office as they were coming in. I could see them out the corner of my eye, and I saw him, and I thought, right, okay. And I was delighted he'd come, and they were up to maximum, and I said— I'm saying to them, let him in, let him in, because I was so pleased that he'd come. So, and he came up at the end, and I couldn't let on that I knew him from work, obviously, because that would have been breaching confidence.

Yes.

confidentiality. So he came up and said, hello. And I said, hello, how are you doing? I don't have any money. It's okay. Signed a book, gave him a book.

And I thought, oh, bless.

Oh, it was nice. There's human beings. I knew his family and him, and, you know, it was great.

But yeah, that's fantastic. It sounds like a happy ending. That might not be the appropriate terminology for that story anyway. Let's, let's move on. One of the things that people can find quite challenging when they are tackling dark subject matter in talks and books is getting the balance right between the light and the dark. And the audience need that, as you, as you probably know. Did you find that a challenge, or did that come quite naturally to you? And what was your approach to that?

I'm probably not giving you the answer you want because I'm not the best at planning things out. It's a kind of intuitive sort of thing. So yeah, I've got a sense of humor, so I tend to need that for my own energy, you know, to sort of a bit of light and dark when I'm talking. So it's probably not as structured as it might be. I know what you do. But yeah, I think it's important. I try and balance it with— I'm saying funny, sometimes it's bizarre or scary, but something that's a wee bit catchy. And then with a bit of more educational, you know, not in an academic educational way, but, you know, something that informs people about something they maybe don't know. Even things like if I talk about the sort of things we ask someone and, you know, when we're assessing their mental health, because people think you sort of, you know, read their mind or something.

Yeah.

People have come up afterwards and said, that's really helpful. I'm an economist, or, and I'll use some of that. And I think I have no idea what I said. But, you know, so there's been some sort of educational thing. People take different things from it.

So.

Something.

That's fantastic. Now, you said, um, that door— you wrote the book, you decided, you decided to get this message out there, you wrote the book, and it opened some doors for you to a life that potentially you hadn't necessarily considered at the point of writing the book. Um, and you, one of the doors that's opened is Becoming a cruise line speaker, uh, or people might also know this as an enrichment lecturer. Um, I wondered if you could tell me, um, was it on your radar and how did you get into it?

So there's 2 bits to the story. Again, complicated as ever. So I decided to write the book and then eventually through a series of, um, discussions and whatnot, I ended up with the right book company. And I had an interview with Sue, who runs it, and it was part of a course I was on about getting your book over the line. And we could get a free chat with her, but they do business books, and a medical memoir about mental illness isn't really, you know, their genre. Um, so, but she'd agreed to talk to anyone on the course. I was having a chat, and, uh, she said, so what do you want your book to do? Um, and I was saying, well, I would like to, you know, tackle the destigmatization sort of thing. And, uh, anything else, you know, what do you want it to do for you? And again, I said earlier, sometimes things come out my mouth and I haven't thought, it just comes out, right? So, and I said, so I surprised myself, I said, well, do you know what, I love cruising, absolutely. I've been cruising for 20 years, love it. Imagine if I could get onto a cruise ship and lecture about this. I'd get the message across the world And I'd get a free holiday. Fantastic. You see, it was a throwaway, literally poured out of my mouth. And she went, that makes it a business book, because publishing a book, being a published author, gives you some additional credibility, and it might be that that could open some doors for you. So if it's a business book, we're willing to sign you. And I was like, oh my God, I'm not— I've got a publishing deal! Oh, so anyway, so, but then I thought, so I, I signed with them and they are my publishers and they've been fabulous.

What?

Well, I thought, I've actually— I've been signed on the basis that I'm going to do cruise line speaking with it. Oh dear, I better do something about that. So I had kind of looked into it, and it seemed that you needed an agent. And I thought, well, I can hardly go. I published a book last week, you know, can I get a job? So I thought, I'll leave it a month or two, hopefully sell some books, and then I'll feel more confident about approaching an agent. So that was the plan. I went off on holiday cruising, as I do, and I kept cruising when my husband died. I just said, I'm going to go for it. So I was in Antarctica on an expedition cruise in the beginning of 2022. I get my— and I got invited to dinner by a member of staff who was the guest relations manager. And one of my friends— I've managed to acquire some cruise buddies. I've been cruising myself and I meet people and they go, oh, we'll come with you the next one. So in Antarctica, I had 2 ladies from Canada and a couple from Texas said, oh, you're going to Antarctica, we'll come. So One of the Canadians had been invited to dinner as well. So we were at the table and they're going, who are you? Where do you come from? What do you do? And I said, you know, I'm a retired doctor, I'm from Scotland, I'm a forensic psychiatrist. I got no further. My friend said, I've just finished her book. Oh my God, I was listening to it on the plane. I was laughing out loud. I was sobbing at the end. Spoiler alert, my husband dies at the end. So she said, I was sobbing. Oh, and it's called I Don't Talk to Dead Bodies. So everybody went, Oh, because that's a bit unusual. And then she said, I mean, chapter 9. And I'm thinking, I wrote it, I have no idea what chapter 9 is. What's she going to say next? So I'm sitting forward like that, and she said, it's called Tell Me About Your Genitals. So everybody started laughing. We're on a 5-star cruise ship, everybody's sitting politely in the dining room, and our table was a riot. She's going, tell them, nudging me, tell them that story, tell them that story, because it was all in her head. So I'm telling stories, and then she said, oh, she's an artist, get your phone out, show them your art business. So I showed them pictures, and she said, she wants to do cruise line speaking, and she wants to— she could do workshops, art workshops, she'd be great. And the man that I was having dinner with said, I know the man that books for the whole cruise line, would you like me to speak to him? And I said yes, thinking it would never happen. And the next day he gave me the email. He said, I've emailed him, he said get in contact. when you get home. And about 3 weeks later, I was booked to, to go as an enrichment lecturer on a 5-star cruise to Japan.

Fantastic.

That started my journey. So that's, that's how it started. I now have an agent in Florida, but that came after. Cool.

And how did you find the agent? Was it difficult to do that? Is it— are they easily findable for people if someone's interested in doing something?

I had looked up before online, and they were you know, you can find them, cruise line speaking agents. And again, slightly tortuous, I was in a business group I joined again to get out of the house really, and, and I had developed an art business to give me something to do because that was my passion. I've got a bit of skill, I suppose. And, uh, I was in a business group and some— and I said to them, I'm looking for opportunities to speak in libraries and to, um, speak in colleges, um, and if anyone knows any cruise line speakers. And one of the people who was visiting the meeting that day said, "I'm an ex-cruise line entertainment director." I'll contact, and he's heard me speak, and he's bought some of my artwork. So he, a few days later, I got a copy copied into an email to the cruise line he used to work with, saying, "You know, this one lady's wonderful." Da da da da da. And you should have her on your world cruise because she can lecture and she can do art and stuff. And they wrote back to me and said. We booked through an agent. This is the agent that gave me the link, and I, I booked. I got in touch, and, and that was it. So.

Fantastic. I love the way that serendipity stepped in to move you forward, especially when it feels like you've sort of given so much of your life to others beforehand. And it's, it's a lovely, it's a lovely thing. Now, the other thing that people will be curious about Is how it works. Like when you do these cruise ship lectures, and I think this is something to also say that it's, it's a lecture, not— it's different to a keynote in some ways as people might understand it. But first of all, yeah, how does it work in terms of, you know, fees and your schedule? How much downtime? What's, what's it like?

So first of all, it's not a job to do if you're wanting to make money because you don't. I'm retired and I'm in a fortunate position financially. I'm just going for a jolly and doing something positive in the process. So most enrichment lecturers are in that position. So once you get your agent and you get a booking for whatever cruise it is, you get free flights to and from the cruise, and you get a free cruise. You get guest accommodation the same as paying passengers. On the 5-star cruise, I had a butler and the whole works.

Wow.

You don't usually, in most cases, you don't have a balcony. Most times you're in an inside cabin and you don't have a, you know, you don't have a window, but sometimes you do. So I've had both, but I've not had a balcony since I've been doing this. The other thing is The different agents work with different cruise lines. So I think mine works with about 6 different ones, and each cruise line is different. And, you know, some you get Wi-Fi or money off your laundry and that sort of thing. But basically you don't get a fee for lecturing. Your fee is the free cruise and the travel.

Yeah.

You can take someone with you, but they don't get free travel. They have to pay their own flights, but they can share your room. And you get, obviously, on a cruise, you get all your food and entertainment and everything. Sometimes you get, depending on the level of cruise, you might have free alcohol. Like the 5-star cruise, everything's included, whereas in a not a 5-star cruise, you pay for a drinks package or whatever. You only work in the sea days, so the cruises you're likely to get booked for are cruises with lots of sea days, so transatlantic, transpacific, that sort of thing. Although you can get booked for other things, but that just, you know, typically that would be something that you'd get an enrichment lecture for. You work on CDs, you have to give them— be able to give a minimum of 5 different lectures. One I've just been booked for, they want 8, but normally it's 5 up until now. So they're independent standalone lectures because you don't know if people are going to come to one, number 3, or all of them. So they all have to be different and they last about 45 minutes and then have a Q&A or something. at the end. They don't always have staff there to do a roving mic, but the content of mine is not really appropriate to do as a big Q&A because sometimes people ask you unusual things. So I tend to say to people when I finish, I'm happy to have a chat with anyone down at the front if you get any queries, or if you see me around the ship, you know, and they take advantage of that, let me tell you, all the time in the lift, having breakfast. Oh, it's fun. But some of the questions are— initially it used to be it must be difficult, but you're not scared, you know, that kind of thing. Last one, I got one who said, my friend at school killed someone and decapitated them. Do you think I should visit them in the penitentiary? Oh my goodness. Yeah, so I've had questions about transvestite sons and all sorts of things. So it's been interesting, you know, not stuff you would do in a big forum. And again, the audience, you have no guarantee. The timing is crucial. Although everyone's trapped on the ship because it's a sea day, so you've got a potential audience, If you're on a big ship, you know, there'll be dance classes, cocktail-making classes, a pool, cinema, you know, shows, a game show, trivia, all sorts, all going on at the same time. So one, it's got to be attractive enough of a topic. And then, you know, it's just if you're, if you're at the slot that hits the same as breakfast or pre-lunch or, you know, the timing is everything.

Yeah.

And you can have an audience from 50 people to 400 people to whatever. But you're in the big— you're usually in the big auditorium. So the last one I was on, it was a 1,200-seater theater. So you're on a big stage with a head mic, and, you know, your PowerPoint picture is like the full size of this enormous stage. And so my cupcakes were— you can see the cup— can everyone see that one at the top? Yes. So it's quite fun. So, yeah, so that's that. So I think that's the main thing. So when you're on a port day, you don't have any other duties other than your lectures. I did because I've not been booked to do art classes, but on 1, 2, 3, 4 out of— no, 3 out of 4 cruises I've done art classes as well. I've just volunteered when I got on and I've done it. So that's been great as well. So it's been good fun.

Fantastic.

So that's it. But on the sea and the port days, you're not working, so you can pay for excursions and go with the other passengers, or you can You just go off and wander about or whatever.

So fantastic. And how difficult, when you first heard that you had to do like 5 different talks, were you like, oh my goodness, how did you, how did you sort of conquer? Because some people struggle like doing one talk, let alone 5 or 8. How did you approach that?

Well, I'm not saying I was a shining example at the beginning. It's getting better. But, well, I had such a short turnaround from them saying it, and it was like 3 weeks later I was going to Japan.

Wow.

And not only that, it was a time when Japan still had COVID restrictions. I had to go and arrange COVID tests and get the results back in time and do all that stuff and had to get, you know, to look at, do you need a visa and all that. So that stuff is left to you. So, and there was lots of paperwork, kind of contracty type things to fill in. So, and then I had to make PowerPoints, but of course I'm a technophobe. I mean, literally, I can— I'm on here today, I've done well, but Yeah, I'm not the best. So it was, it was a time when I, I'm at home now, so I'd lost my PA, I'd lost my secretary, my husband had died, and my son had moved out. That was my 4 people that helped me with things.

Oh, wow.

So I was stuck in the house, but, you know, not with any of that. So that was a bit of a challenge. Um, and so I decided that the content was more important than the PowerPoint, wrongly, I think, in some degree, but there was— it was what it was. And I knew the content intimately. It's my memoir. I know the stories. All the talks are based on that. However, I had to theme them because they were standalone, so I had to try and pick out— so I decided to do one about what is a forensic psychiatrist and what they— what do they do, because people might be going, what on earth is all that about?

Yeah.

And then I did one about murderers, one about sex offenders, one about female prisoners, because I spent more than a life sentence in the female prison. I got out at night, just to confirm that. I was a psychiatrist for a long time, so I did— I had a lot of contact with female prisoners. And then I did one about my stalker and other odd things, you know, people coming with underpants over their trousers and ties and bare chest and talking to, you know, imaginary fish fingers and all that, and rotting rats in their stomach and stuff, you know. But all that's unusual stuff. So I did— I had to— I had this sort of vague themes. Then I had to pick out from my book the stories. Again, I know the main stories I've told many times, so they were— there was a kind of funny or bizarre story you know, I would go with you.

Yeah.

But I had no time. I didn't ever get to practice them. I literally had to get on a ship, travel to the other side of the world, get on a ship, and do 5 lectures I'd never given before. And I didn't know the timing because you can— I know people say you should practice and write it down and all that. I'm an extrovert and I don't write anything down, and I'm never quite sure what's coming out my mouth. I know the content will be covered, but it's not the same each time. And so I thought, oh, so I had to Had the content. I tried it, you know, roughly the timing, but I knew it wouldn't be the same. And you can't run over on a cruise ship because the theater's booked for the next thing. You have to be, you know, on time. So yeah, so it was quite stressful. And I didn't have— I had PowerPoints like with my face and my book and that on it, but I didn't have PowerPoints because the subject matter— obviously I don't use people's names. I've had to change gender. I've had to do all this stuff that you have to do. But also, it wouldn't be appropriate. So, for example, I could have a picture of the cupcakes, right? So that was one. That was my photo. I own it. That's fine. But if I'm telling a story about, um, anything, you know, the man that was talking to the fish finger, or someone, you know, someone is a junior doctor, the nurses were feeding cornflakes to a dead body and stuff, you know, I can have a picture of cornflakes and, you know, a silly picture, and then it triggers the story, or a banana, and there's a story all about that, you know. So, but I'm a technophobe, but I was trying to get pictures and I thought on the internet, see if you breach copyright and I'm showing them in a big theater across the world. I was terrified. I didn't know. And I thought, I'm not doing it. And I've now got Adobe and I've paid my money and I can use the pictures and I have very full kind of funny— and there's no words on my PowerPoints. It's all just pictures that trigger the stories.

Perfect. Yeah.

So, well, there might be the title of the book or something, but, you know, there's, there's, there's no charts or books. bullet points. It's just all funny pictures now, but a lot of them, you know. But, but the beginning, I'm sure it was marked down by the, the audience because I didn't really have the— had the audio but not the visual, really, you know. And, uh, and that's just, just where I was at. And it was unfortunate that I started on a 5-star cruise ship because, um, uh, it would have been nice to build up to that, you know. So, um, I'm now playing catch-up because I'm not doing the— I'm not doing them. I'm doing, uh, a big cruise line which I'm not mentioning, but I've been doing more with another cruise line, but on much bigger ships. The first ships I did were like 400 people, so you were getting about 50 people turning up to the lectures, whereas let's say I had 400 in the lecture theatre just recently, but that was a bigger ship.

I love it. I love the fact, like, the PowerPoint's brilliant. As I always say, like, the PowerPoint is the image to complement the story, to help it stick in their mind, not like tons of text. So you're doing brilliantly there, but I just love the fact that you Now, you, this is your lived experience, and this is what I say to a lot of speakers like that, you know, you're normally talking about stories that you, you know, experiences that you've been through. And yes, we want to have some structure, but we don't want to get so hung up on the exact word. You know, we've at some point we've got to let go and trust that the thing is going to come. And, you know, if you've done the prep and you've got all the themes and stuff, so I love that you you did that because it enables you to be present with the audience in the moment, and that's so important.

I think the pictures in the PowerPoint are the trigger for the story for me. Yeah, so I don't have to look at notes because the triggers are there, because it's just, oh, that's a story about such and such, and I go off, you know. Just have to watch the time because you can get a wee bit carried away with stuff. Just have to rein it back.

Brilliant. So, um, I've got 2 more questions before we just shift into some standard questions, which I haven't given you a heads up on. What is the take-home message that you hope your cruise line audiences will remember?

Sometimes mental illness makes good people do bad things. Try not to judge them and try and find the human being behind the headlines, because how would you want your son or daughter to be treated if it was them?

I love that, and it— I, I think it, you know, it comes through. Hopefully it's come through in this chat that we've had as well. I think that's, that's lovely. And then my other question is, are you intending to do other types of speaking? And if you are, who do you think will specifically benefit from, from the message that you have to share?

I think it's quite a broad message, so the potential audience is quite big. So you're on a cruise ship, it's completely varied, and it's good because the message is international. So I'm happy to do more cruise line speaking, that'd be great. Um, I think I would like to do keynote speaking, but, um, where would I— you know, what would be the audience? And I think I would need help with, with targeting that. I think predominantly it's going to be some sort of mental illness related, uh, even vaguely related theme. It's about, it's about seeing the human beings and people and treating people as people and being non-judgmental. That's the basis of it. Hopefully entertaining, you know.

Yeah.

And the other thing I've just dabbled with a little bit is talking in colleges and universities. But I think there's a lot of feedback you get, you know, Amazon reviews and people personally. And people think that nurses, doctors, psychologists, social workers, police, prison, journalists is one for me, should have a talk like this. They all get the theory, you know, they get the the percentage of people that commit a crime, or this is what you do, or this is— but there's, there's not a lot really covers the human beings in all this. And actually, don't lose sight of the human being in you when you're dealing with somebody and you're interacting, you know, being a bit vulnerable and listening and sharing and whatever. It's really important to, to hook people in so you can help them. Um, and so, uh, I have, I have spoken to criminology students, for example, and You know, I got a very positive reception because it was, it was a wee bit different. It brought some flesh to the bones. I think that academia is the bones, isn't it, in most things? And bringing the flesh to it, I think, is probably quite important. So I would love to do more of that. Never done a book festival. I haven't pursued it, so, but I would like to do that. That would be quite cool.

We'll put that out there. Anyone that's listening, sounds like it would be a good, good booking. But I think like that message that you just said, you know, it's about seeing the person that's applicable to managers in organizations, you know, that sort of seeing the person and, you know, although you're coming at it from a different angle, it's very, you know, it can be absolutely, you know, you've got economists taking things away from your lectures and I'm sure that there's things that they would take away and be useful. In terms of the questions, the communication, and all that stuff. So anyway, let's— there's lots that you could, you could do there. Fantastic. Right now, Rhona, thank you so much for sharing everything that you have already. I have some standard questions that I ask all my guests. And the first one, which I kind of feel like I might know the answer to, but, but you might surprise me, is what's the best thing that speaking has done for you?

It's got me to travel around the world and meet lots of new friends, genuine friends. I've been to stay with people in Houston, they've been to stay with me. I've got people from Canada and Trinidad and Tobago possibly coming next year, and, and I've been on holiday with some of the people. My last lecture I did, last tour, I met 4 Texans and they've all booked to come on holiday with me to the Caribbean when I'm talking in November. So I think making new friends and, and traveling is the, is the thing.

Yeah, I thought it might be, but I just wanted to check. That's brilliant. And I don't know, let's— the answer to this question might be interesting as well. Is, is there a talk that you've done either before when you were doing your job or since you started doing this where you thought, oh my goodness, that was a nightmare. What? I want to forget that and never think about it ever again. Has that happened to you?

I don't think so, if I'm being completely honest. It's generally been very positive. There are things I could do better, and, you know, I ran overtime once and I didn't realize because they'd changed the start time, and I, you know, and I felt really guilty and, oh my God, and nothing came of it, you know. Um, so no, I think generally it's fun. It's a privilege to be able to share stories with people and hopefully, um, make them think, you know. Uh, that's a bonus.

Now, you're an author. But the question I have next is, what's the book that you've read that's had most impact on your life and why?

Not a particularly serious book, but it came before I wrote mine, and that was This Is Going to Hurt by Adam Kay.

Ah, yeah, okay.

Now, it's not, you know, it's not a— it's a bestseller, but it's not like a huge literary work, as it were. But what it did for me was it gave me permission to be me. Because when I started to think about writing a book, I thought, I've never written anything other than court reports for the, you know, um, and I don't, I don't have a creative writing degree. So there was imposter syndrome. Oh my God, it won't be good enough. It's terrible. And I wrote the first chapter of the book and I let my daughter see it. And my daughter has got OCD, so she just can't lie. She just tells you how it is. And she went, that's not you. What's all that flowery stuff? What's all that about? And I was like, oh. And, uh, and I thought, you know, that's not me. That's just nonsense. And I thought, I need to write it as if I'm telling the story, because I've told many of the stories many times. And if I can write it just as if it's coming out of my mouth, then that's more authentic. And the book that I've mentioned was somebody kind of telling their story just how it is. It wasn't trying to be academic and all flowery. And so it was just telling a story, and it appealed to me because it was like a natural, kind of authentic story. So again, that book, not so much the content, just the, the way it was written, I thought, that's, that's what I might want mine to be like. And the test was when I recorded the audiobook, because I thought, if I read this and it doesn't just flow out of me, there's something wrong, I've not got it right. And it did sort of flow out of me. So I think the book is written as I would tell it. Uh, so hopefully I've got the voice right in the book.

Fantastic. And I mean, that's something that a lot of people that I work with who, you know, who are authors find it so hard to do. Um, and it's one of the things, just as an aside for out of interest to people listening, that when, you know, I, I used to do stand-up comedy, as I had probably mentioned to you before, and that was something you had to learn to do as a comedian. When you write jokes, and all jokes are written, They've got to be written as if you're telling them, as if they're speaking. And, and what I find often working with authors, and this is a key point, if you're an author and you wanna turn your book into a talk and you've not approached it like Rhona has done, is that you can't just cut and paste your book to turn it into a talk because they're very different animals if you've written it To be read versus written it to be said aloud. And if you can find, you know, if you can do that from the start that, you know, lots of authors are doing it the way that you've done it, and that's great. But sometimes it just, you know, you've gotta make that transition between the written word and the spoken word cuz there's, they're very different. So thanks for, for making that point. Next question. What's the best bit of business advice you've had and why?

Oh, um, I don't know. Hmm, I don't know if it was advice from anyone, but it's probably advice I would give other people, is to be open to opportunities. And I don't know if someone told me that or not, I'm being honest, but I think that was— the thing is, as we said before, I didn't start out with this as my end goal. I just knew I had to fill my time because my husband had died and, you know, I was retired. And then I thought, I'll just try lots of things and I can ditch them as I just need to fill the time for me because that's what I needed. And then I can ditch them if I don't like them. But it meant I wasn't saying, well, I've got a goal and I've got to do that, because I think that hampers your decisions and your opportunities. So, uh, yeah, so I think just being open and an opportunity comes along, you know, people say to me, can you come and talk at our Women's Guild, you know, and there could be 8 people there, you know, and you might overanalyze it and go, well, I might not sell any books and you know, they're not going to buy it, you know. And actually, I just go along. I've done about 70 talks to Rotary Clubs and Probus Clubs, mostly older men, and, uh, I'm hoping just to change some minds. Just— but they, they go in maybe with a fixed view and they come out with something different. And if that's the case, that's a win.

Yeah.

But sometimes there's someone in the audience— I did one in a library, it was about 12 people there, Scottish Book Week, and I did several libraries, and someone came along who happened to be a lecturer at the local college in criminology. They stayed at the end and they booked me to come and speak to their class of criminology students. Every student in the class queued up and bought a book, um, and then they'll go on and tell other people. And then I was able to say to the university criminology department, I did a talk at the college and then I spoke to all their students. And so it was just fortuitous, but if I hadn't gone to that library doing it for nothing, just giving my time that wouldn't have happened. So I think it's just been open. So I didn't really, I didn't really answer your question. Not like me.

Yes, you did. Open to opportunities. Absolutely, you did. And then you told a nice anecdote to cement it. It's perfect. Right, last question then. If you could have any mentor, they can be alive or dead, fictional or non-fictional, who would you choose and why?

Um, I don't know. I'm really— you've stumped me. Um, I'm not someone who's tended to have, you know, when I was growing up, you know, people have posters on their wall and things like that. I'm not that kind of person. I kind of tend to seek out what I need at the time, really. I don't have one person I go, that's, that's my hero, you know. I didn't set out to be a speaker, so I don't have a speaker who I go, I'd love to be Yeah. That TEDx speaker or that president or whatever. Uh, I didn't have it in medicine either because I always thought a lot of the experts were people who knew lots of academic stuff, and I don't see myself as an academic. I see myself as a hands-on person. So I definitely didn't have people there. So I'm not, I'm not really that kind of person, I think. Um, I think I try to be the best I can be, but I don't aspire to be someone else.

No, and that's great. So, well, let me phrase this slightly differently for you then. If you could have, you know, a dinner, ask someone, like you could choose anyone to sort of ask questions of or have an interesting conversation with that you would find interesting, who would that be?

Something like Stephen Fry, someone like that, maybe.

Okay. Cool, cool, cool. No, I love the fact that you remind me a bit of, uh, of, of that Matthew McConaughey thing, which is like, uh, I'm chasing myself 10 years in the future. That's who I want to, that's who I want to be. I love, you know, I've got that feeling coming across. So that's, that's great. Well, listen, Rona, thank you so much for sharing, um, all of the, the stories and the experience that you've had since you've written the book and before.

Thank you.

for the book and for being so open and vulnerable and being, you know, letting your personality shine through. It's been brilliant. I've really enjoyed speaking to you. Now, where's the best place if people want to find out more about you, if they want to book you to speak, if they want to buy your book, where's the best place for them to go?

So in terms of contacting me, I've got a website. So it's www.rhona, you can see on the screen, R-H-O-N-A. So it's www.ronamorrison.com. So it's an easy one to remember. And people can buy my book there and get signed copies from there and see my art and all that. And if you want to just order online, you can order it from any good bookstore anywhere. Or you can go to Amazon and there's the paperback, the ebook, and the audiobook on there. And it's in all the flagship stores and Waterstones in the UK. There's an email contact bit on the, on the The website. So if anyone wanted to contact me about speaking, I'd love to hear from you.

Fantastic. Well, we'll put that in the show notes too. Well, listen, have a wonderful time on all of the cruises that you've got lined up for the rest of the year, and it's been an absolute pleasure. So thank you very much again.

Thank you for having me. It's been great fun.

There you go. I hope you enjoyed that interview with Rhona and you got lots from it. Maybe new ways of looking at this tricky subject. She might have given you a new perspective because it's not as cut and dried as it often seems. I know it's a challenging topic, but I think she made it accessible and light and interesting, and I certainly got a lot from finding out about what she's been up to in her career. What was also interesting was finding out all about the cruise ship lecturer experience, because it might be something that you are now interested in finding more about, and another possible destination for you as a speaker. But if you got value from the show, do reach out and let Rhona know, and also get a— grab a copy of the book. It is funny, it's interesting, and I know that you'll have a good read with that. And have lots to think about and, and discuss. And so it's a great book. Good. Well, all that's left for me to say is if you enjoy the show on YouTube, then do subscribe to our channel. If you like it on the podcast, then subscribe on the podcast. And yeah, leave a comment below. They're always welcome. And if you can leave a rating or review for the podcast over at ratethispodcast.com, That would be amazing. I will see you and speak to you next time. In the meantime, you know what you've got to do. Go out, grab your life by the nuts, and get cracking. Bye-bye. If you want to discover how to create a killer pitch that makes you or your business stand out from the crowd, then you'll want to grab your copy of my book. Straight to the top. It will help you clarify your USP, your business story, who your target market is, and what will make them buy. You'll discover how to get the edge on the competition and position your offer for success. You'll also get proven elevator and investor pitch frameworks to use for maximum impact. To get the book for free plus lots of extra bonuses— you just pay shipping and handling— go to standoutpitch.com today.