Speaking Authentically When You've Been Taught to Play Safe

Hello, you are watching and listening to Sarah Archer and episode 301 of the Speaking Club podcast. And I want to start this show with a quote from author and publisher Louise Hay. Love of self and love of life connects us with the prosperity of the universe. Self-love creates self-expression. Expression and allows us to be creative in deeply fulfilling ways. I started this podcast for 2 reasons: because I want to help people recognise the power of stories and humour in speaking, and because I believe it's your message that counts, not the number of ums and ahs you use. There are some organisations that want to create robot speakers. They want you to sacrifice your personality in order to speak perfectly. I want to let you know that you can be yourself and a sensational speaker. So if you want to be a speaker that connects and engages authentically through stories, a speaker that gives value as well as a great performance, then welcome home. Hey, welcome to the show. It's lovely to be back with you again. I have been a bit knackered. I'm not gonna lie, because I've had a full-on few weeks. I've been speaking, I've been performing, and I've been growing. And what do I mean by that? Well, just this weekend past, I was at a full 3-day summit for the Professional Speaking Association in the Cotswolds in the UK, and we had people joining that summit from all over the world, and there were some great ideas shared and some things that I'm going to be passing on to you In future episodes, so watch this space. But that's enough about the future because now I want to share about this show and what we're going to be talking about today. So the definition of self-expression is this: it's the expressions of one's feelings, thoughts, ideas through words, choices, and actions. That sounds pretty easy, doesn't it? But the trouble is that we are all so burdened with messages about how we should look or think or speak or act or eat, the whole shebang, and it presses down on us and keeps us small, and it's difficult to let go of those expectations and simply be ourselves. And for women, there's a few other layers of conditioning that we're having to deal with. So what about you? How fully expressed are you? Are you wanting to start speaking but find yourself saying no or avoiding it because you feel like you would be an imposter positioning yourself on the stage? As an expert in your niche, or maybe you do speak at the moment, but when you're on stage, you find yourself playing safe, uh, or trying to be what you think a presenter should be, or you're avoiding sharing your personality or stories or performing, committing to that talk. Well, my guest today will be sharing some ideas to help you Be more you. Michelle Minikin is an organizational psychologist and the author and podcast host of a book and a podcast called Good Girl Deprogramming. Now for many years Michelle herself struggled under the weight of expectations and she played small, she put herself last, she was a good girl. Without even realizing that she was doing it. And so eventually she discovered this concept of good girl conditioning. She went full-on, researched it, found evidence of, of what was behind it. And in this show, she's going to shine a light on what this is and how it's disempowered women for years, for decades. And for generations. And whether you are a man or a woman who is burdened by how you are told you should be, you're going to get tips in this show for how to deprogram that conditioning and set yourself free. Enough of me. Let's skip over to the interview With Michelle Minikin. Welcome to The Speaking Club, Michelle Minikin.

Thank you so much for having me on. This is really exciting.

I know, right? And I, this is going to be fun because you make me laugh. And, uh, I know we're going to have fun alongside sharing some serious messages. So without further ado, I've got a first question for you, which is this. You, like, behind you on the sign there, people listening can't see, but on Michelle's got a sign behind her and it says, Good Girl Deprogramming, and then underneath, Unleash Your Inner Rebel. And my first question to you is, at what point in your life did you become a rebel and why?

So interestingly, I was on the out on the People thought I was such an angel, and I think I did try and be a good girl most of my life. But I have this, like, really hilarious— I know what it is now, but at the— in my entire life, understanding I had this rebel, defiant— it's more defiance than rebellion at that point— defiant streak. And I used to joke that my mum She was like, oh, if you tell it— if you tell my mum to do anything, she'll be like, oh, I'm not going to do that. And then I kind of like, as I've aged, I'm like, oh, if you ask me to do something, I'll do anything. But if somebody tells me, I am the micromanager's worst nightmare, quite frankly. But yes, it was, it was, it was really early doors, but almost I didn't have permission to be rebellious.

Mm-hmm.

Until sort of 2018 when I read a book called Be More Pirate. So I spent my entire career thinking, this isn't gonna work. This is just nonsense. And having done a, like, a master's in organizational psychology and knowing what good looks like in an organization and actually experiencing organizations, I used to think, is it just me? But yeah, it was. It was just me.

So there's always been this rebellious streak, but, um, it was constrained, wasn't it, to a large degree, in the same way that you advocate many women are constrained. Can you tell me about how you discovered what you talk about today and what you write about today?

So yes, as I said, I was trying my hardest to be a good girl my entire like education. I was always one of the hand-uppers, you know. And I, uh, I always giggle at this one, but I was such a good girl that I wouldn't say the word damn because that was terrible. And when I used to run around the D-A-M with my dad, I would call it the D-A-M. And anyone who's read my book will know that there's a lot of swearing in there. So that does make me smile. I think my little inner sort of 5-year-old finds that hilarious. Um, so I— it wasn't until I got my ADHD diagnosis just before my 42nd birthday that all of that people pleasing, all of that worrying what other people will think, searching for praise, avoiding criticism or conflict at all costs— it wasn't until that point where I even question it, which is a bit ridiculous for an organizational psychologist, let's face it. Um, so I, I experienced a lot of anger when I had my ADHD diagnosis, and there was a lot of, what would my life have looked like if I'd known this information sooner? So anger, again, as we all know, is an emotion that is not necessarily socially acceptable for women. So I I was angry, but I was also terrified of my anger as well because what's that? Because we've kept, you know, we keep those dark emotions in. So I went to therapy, coaching, and kind of come to terms with the, the, that sort of the ADHD, understanding how my brain works. Like kind of let, let go all of the grief of finding out that my life may have been different. Obviously I wouldn't change a single thing about it, but having to kind of go through that grieving process. And there was still something.

Hmm.

So there was what Michelle, you know, Michelle, the ADHD and how that operated me and how it sort of helped and hindered. But there was this other thing. And I didn't know what this thing was. And that was the, that people pleasing, that deferring to authority of desperately needed to be liked and My life was still revolving around that. And that's what I found when I was doing a coaching course. I found that that was my good girl conditioning. And all of the different ways that we are conditioned as females to be nice, kind, polite, care, share, smile, be pretty, all of that. And it's all utterly exhausting.

You're not wrong. I think the thing that is, is interesting to me is that there was this incongruence going on. And, and I think so when you said you, there was still something there, you know, in terms of that thing, was it just this feeling that, that there was this, this dissonance, there, there was this something wasn't right beyond what you knew to be associated with the ADHD? And how did that manifest, like, in day-to-day life for you or in business as well?

So there was just this awareness that I was playing small across my entire life. I was doing things because other people wanted to do them. You know, getting into, like, ridiculous relationships, like business relationships with people that I— my heart knew they were terrible ideas. But, you know, going into business with a completely narcissistic individual who was the biggest micromanager on the planet, for example, I knew that that was wrong, but I was— it's like business love bombed into it, you know. And, and, you know, not having any boundaries, not being able to say no, and It's almost, yeah, there was always this sort of duality in me that I was too scared to tap into the, the rebellious side because, you know, what would, what would people think? And, you know, would, would everybody hate me if I started actually, actually being me?

Interesting. And so when, when did you know that you had to write the book? Because you found out you were, you, so you, you got the ADHD diagnosis, you You had this still, this feeling that there wasn't, there was something wrong. You had coaching and, and you sort of became aware of this good girl conditioning. What did you do next in terms of exploring this thing that you discovered? Yeah. And at what point did you feel like, I've got to write this book? And what, you know, was there some, was this covered anywhere else? What had you found?

So interestingly, I was kind of like a good psychologist. So there's layers. There's, you know, this good girl, this good wife, this good partner, employee, and being a good psychologist. I was invited to participate in a women's, in like a learning and development conference. This was during COVID This was online. And women across the world were invited to contribute and co-create a conference to empower women in the L&D space. So I was like so excited that I'd found this thing called good girl conditioning, and I was like, oh, I'd love to do a talk on this good girl conditioning thing. And somebody said, well, how do we get conditioned? And I was like, good question, I have no idea. So I went off and did my research, and as a teenager, I was quite into like cults and serial killers and why— well, I grew up in Northern Ireland during the Troubles, so why bad people did bad things and all of that. So, I was really interested in that. And I just, my brain just went, well, it's obvious why we're good girls. We're like, we're brainwashed. This, the patriarchy is a cult. So, I was like, oh, so how do we get unbrainwashed, as it were? So, I, you know, went on my little Google search and I came across a chap called Albert Biderman. So, Albert Biderman was a social scientist in the US in the 1950s. And during the Korean War, the US military were really terrified that so many prisoners of war Americans were converting, converting to communism and, you know, going and being absorbed by China. So, as you can imagine, this was the time of America where, you know, the thought of communism and the whole McCarthyism and all of that, everybody was like, you know, up a height, as we say in the northeast of England, about it. And, um, and of course the American military wondered whether the Chinese had a magical mystery brainwashing machine, because if you could imagine, the American military wouldn't do anything bad with that brainwashing machine. They would just be, you know, they're just interested if it exists. So, um, of course it didn't exist. Biderman and his team found a like a whole ream of methods of coercion. So like, he came up with a tool of coercive control. It's got like 9 elements on, and I was like, oh, this is interesting. I wonder if— which kind of is the start to most things in my life— I wonder if, or I wonder what would happen if. Um, I printed it off and I thought, I'm gonna see whether all of these we could apply them to women, girls living under the patriarchy. And I went from that sort of excited curiousness within half an hour to absolute feelings of dread because it does, it does describe how we are conditioned, how we are trained to be all of those things I mentioned before. So, I was like, right, so now I know what it is, I can do the talk. So, I did the talk. Didn't record the talk, which is really annoying. But I wanted to make sure it was like a safe space and it was something new and I was trying it out. And anyway, so I didn't, didn't record it, but then it just wouldn't go away. It just kept like poking me almost like, this is information that women need to know.

Yeah.

And now I've figured this out. It's my responsibility almost to tell people about it. So I took 2 years to write the book. One chapter in particular took me 6 months to write, one chapter, and that's the chapter on how women, all the different ways women are kept tired.

Interesting, because was it so tough because it was personal?

Yeah.

Yeah, okay. How did it resonate with you then? Why was, why did it resonate so much?

Because I hadn't even You, you know, you live your life.

Mm-hmm.

You don't recognize and realize the additional burden that women have. Even if you don't have children, you're still expected to be a good daughter, friend, neighbor, colleague. All of the non-promotable tasks at work generally tend to be picked up by women. We sleep less, we do more unpaid domestic caring labor, and on top of all of that, we have to stay like as beautiful as possible, as young as possible, and as thin as possible. And it's like all of those layers of expectations. And even now, that's still the area that I struggle with because I live with my partner James. He's adorable, he's lovely, but he is not my child's dad. So I— He, you know, helps loads, but I don't feel like I could, you know, make him do more because he's not his dad. So it's like this— there's still loads of weird intertwining stuff, um, in that. But yeah, and you just see it everywhere. You see it in— I had to kind of go through a whole process of— I used to judge my mum for not progressing in her career.

Mm-hmm.

But then when you look at— she's a single mother with 4 children and sick parents, and A really taxing job. So no wonder she didn't want to go for progression, even though she could have run rings around her bosses, because I ended up working in the same organization and I knew them. And she was like, she was brilliant, but because she had to look after all of us, and there's like 18 years between me and my little brother.

Oh.

So her motherhood journey was like longer than most people.

Yeah, yeah.

Double.

Gosh.

So, yeah, I had to, I apologized. She was like, what are you talking about? Go away, you weirdo. But that's fine. But it was just like, no wonder. And how much potential and brilliance and talent is wasted because we are expected to do all of the things for all of the people all of the time.

It's really interesting, like all of that stuff. And it resonates with me because I can see stuff that I've done in my life and continue to do. And it's really, it is so ingrained. I was doing a talk myself at the weekend about how the male impersonators in Victorian times empowered women because, but the context that they sort of were born in, in 1864 in the UK with this concept of paterfamilias, which is the man of the house, and they've got ultimate control over family members and family property with undisputed authority to make and enforce moral standards backed by the law, mind, because the law said women were weaker and needed to be dominated and stewarded by men. And it's just, you know, it's just so, so bad. And it's really So you felt compelled, so you wrote, you wrote the book.

Yeah.

Um, and I was reading some of the reviews of the book, and it made me feel from what I'd read that the, that you sort of, uh, took the veil off, uh, these women's eyes, and that's what you do. And it made me feel like what your book does for women is akin to what Orpheus is doing for humans in the film The Matrix, like just pulling us out and showing us the context that we're in. Does that resonate with you as well?

1,000%. 1,000%. And it's— I love watching that moment. You can see when I'm doing talks or workshops, I can— you can see the moment where that was almost like when the penny drops. It's just about a, you know, weird phrase, but you can see it in their eyes, that almost that awakening. Like, I'm literally telling women that everything they thought was true is not true. So it's confronting. And my, my, my book— she's fine. She's fine with me saying this. And because she's, she said it publicly as well. So my, the woman I went to for my, um, coaching and therapy when I found out about my ADHD diagnosis. She is also an author, so I enlisted her as my book wingwoman. So she ended up like editing the book, and I went to her publishers. So it was kind of very sort of very incestuous in terms of that. And one chapter when she was editing and reading it, and she has, you know, she's a witch, she's a you know, she's very in tune with her body and the world and the capitalistic patriarchy and all of this stuff. And one chapter like literally blew her head away. She was, she was in like, she didn't cope with it very well. So she had to seek therapy during— because of that. And it was a different chapter from the one that traumatized me, but—

Oh, okay.

It's, it's very confronting.

That's really interesting. And, and I guess the thing, because it is going to be emotional, and it does require you once the veil is lifted, to recalibrate, I think, yourself, and potentially other people around you. And there is work to do. And that in itself can be Really hard. But what in, you know, what is on the other side for women once they are deprogrammed? I know that you would probably say, well, it's an ongoing journey as well, because I'm not. But what, what's on the other side for them?

So yeah, it is a, it's a lifelong onion peeling journey, as it was. As soon as you think, oh, I've got this, I've got this good girl deprogramming thing, I'm like completely rebellious and I'm being true to myself and authentic, a scenario happens and you go straight to a good girl because that's habitual.

Yeah.

So I think with that, more of that self-compassion, um, more ease. And you alluded to the whole, like, when I'm deprogrammed, that means that the people around me, I need to almost change them too. And I advocate for little tiny steps. So, for example, when James and I started dating, he used to come round to my house, and we, we were— we started working together before we started dating. So I was always the hostess with the mostest, and I used to always make the cups of tea. And it wasn't until I was writing this book that I realised that James had never made me a cup of tea. And we're talking years into our relationship at this point. And I'm like, Hang on a second. We've got into this stupid habit of me making tea. And I know he can make tea because if he needs one, I don't want, he can make his own. So, that's, you know, that's fine. So, instead of getting like, instead of like losing my, you know what, because I felt like that. I felt like, I was like, this is so unfair. I have to make all the teas, you know, oh, woe is me, victim mode. I was like, right, okay, so this is what's happened. I've now recognised it's happened and I recognise that I'm feeling resentful about it. So, I thought, I'm going to perform an experiment. So, so the first day I was like, asked him for a cup of tea, like, James, could you please make me a cup of tea? And you'd never guess what happened. He got up, went into the kitchen, and made me a cup of tea. And I thought, well, that was easy. That was easy.

Interesting.

Did it for a week, and every day I was like trying to hide my smirk when he gave me my cup of tea. And at the end, I couldn't keep it in, told him what I'd been up to. We all thought it was hilarious. But it's, it doesn't have to be a big confrontation and doesn't have to be all at once. It can be just baby steps in the right direction.

So it's not like you're going to be getting, you don't want to go rushing out there. I'm going to use the phrase burn the bar and just like, you know, it, it's probably that will, that would have a sort of negative effect potentially. So, so gradual baby steps. Interesting. And whilst you were Whilst you were talking there, what struck me is, so obviously you, you know that I'm in a, a same-sex marriage. Um, and I was contemplating how good girl conditioning played out in our relationship. And sometimes we really struggle to make a decision and say what we want because both of us are going, well, well, what, what do you fancy? Well, what do you want? And we don't say, look, I want this. We're both, and it takes us ages sometimes to just make a decision. And I thought maybe that's like double good girl conditioning happening at the same time. So that was curious.

Interesting. But if it makes you feel any better, James and I are the same, so.

Oh, that's all right.

So maybe it's not just, uh, well, yeah, I think he, he grew up with 2 teachers, um, as parents. So there's a whole different set of conditioning as, as a, a child of a teacher times 2, I would imagine. So. He is, he's, he's lovely. He's very kind and considerate and almost, he has, he, he really enjoyed reading the book and going through it with me as well because a lot of it resonated with him too.

Interesting. Well, because there is a continuum of these things, isn't it? And, and it's depending on, you know, like you, you use the analogy or metaphor of an onion and it, and there is layers and layers of, you know, not just this but that and then this and then that, you know, that we have to peel back to understand what our true self, you know, is and what we truly want because we do suppress that desire so much.

Okay.

And one thing I was curious about, and you've mentioned this a few times, so, um, is that you are an organizational psychologist and I wondered how this had helped or hindered with the work that you've been doing around, uh, Good Girl Deprogramming.

So yeah, I think when we go to university to study this stuff, we look at things from an individual, a group, and then an organizational context.

Mm-hmm.

So I really wanted to try and make book number 1 quite a personal journey, sort of almost a woman existing in the world no matter where they were. But book number 2, which is actually— I figured it out recently— it's actually scaring me to write because that's my profession and my passion as one. So it would be Good Girl Deprogramming at Work. So how is all of this in the workplace? And that's when my kind of passion around women's empowerment and that's almost the team and the organisational context stuff will clash because we all know that diverse boards, organisations perform better.

Yeah.

But as you know, as you were exploring at the weekend, the world of work was made by men for men. And even Sheryl Sandberg turned around and said, oh, I might have been a wee bit hasty with the whole leaning in stuff because she was only able to lean in because her husband was able to look after the kids. And, you know, like what we've been saying. So, yeah, yeah. As women, we've had to adapt to the workplace. It doesn't adapt to us at all.

No, no. Interesting. That's really interesting. And I, I, I wanna ask you about that in ter— you know, in terms of if there are any enlightened CEOs listening to this since we've got here, and I will track back, but what would you say are the 3 biggest things they need to move towards their organization, um, doing to be free from coercive control of women? How does it show up and what, what can they do?

So these tools of coercion, they are— you find them everywhere. You know, you find them in relationships, you find them in organizations, and anywhere there's like a power Differential. So, the problem with most organisations, they're built on that ancient Roman army of hierarchy.

Mm.

And that's when things can go wrong because, you know, you look at the Stanford prison experiments and when people give people power, they act like prison guards. And that's what happens in organisations. So, an understanding of that and actively working against it. And for years, I've been a huge advocate and I've done lots of work empowering women. So we take the women out of the organization, we, you know, give them training, we try and help them solve, you know, that inner doubt, that inner critic, the, you know, symptoms of imposter syndrome, sort out some confidence stuff, and then we fling them back into an organization with men having, and other women, let's face it, having—

Mm-hmm.

you know, sexist and misogynistic beliefs and thoughts and actions. And we need to, we need to make organizations safe for everyone. So nipping that banter in the bud so we know when banter goes too far.

Mm-hmm.

We need to stop tolerating high-performing but inappropriate people because the worst behavior that you allow is your culture. So, and obviously put your money where your mouth is because if you want to create a psychologically safe organization for everybody, it's gonna, it's not gonna be a quick win.

No.

It's gonna take bravery and boldness and difficult conversations and getting things wrong. But you're gonna have to invest in it as well.

Absolutely. And it feels like this is gonna be almost like you're putting a man cover over the potholes. The potholes are still there and people will still fall in them until the thing is changed sufficiently. So it's almost like, you know, I remember once ages ago about unconscious bias. where we can't help it. That's it. You know, whether you're the woman behaving in a certain way or a culture or a system or a man behaving in a certain way. But we can choose our second. We can become more self-aware and we can choose our second response. And it feels like this sort of applies in this context as well. Yeah.

And some of the issues I've got with some of these sort of personality questionnaires and like, you know, if you've decided that you've got like a personality that red personality, for example.

Yeah.

That you, you're like, well, I'm red, I can do, I can, you know, I can be mean, I can be domineering because that's just my personality. And I'm like, no, you don't have to be. You know, you can, you know, if you were meeting, and you said the Queen there, if you were meeting the King, were you, are you going to be a red dominant personality in front of the King? You know what I mean?

You can adapt. Yeah, you can adapt.

are changeable, they're adaptable, and they know in their heart of hearts what, what is right and wrong. Interesting.

And you mentioned about, let's face it, the women too. And I'm hearing my mum in my mind. But what resistance have you encountered to what you're sharing? And I'm assuming it hasn't been exclusively men, potentially. I wondered if you could share a bit from both sides so we can just sort of see what you're having to, to deal with in sharing this message.

Well, it turns out as soon as you start talking about sexism and misogyny, it attracts a certain type of man that wants to tell you that you're wrong and you're a misandrist, which is hilarious. So there's a few of those, but the overwhelming majority of men I've come into contact with in this work are, they wanna listen, they wanna understand. I've had loads of lovely conversations with men about this. I've had loads of really interesting chats that they wanna be better allies. They wanna help with this stuff. They, you know, they're they are, they are harmed too by the patriarchy. This can help them understand themselves better. So I think we're still always going to attract the trolls and the people that are just perpetually offended by things. But, but some of the responses by women, it's like, wow, just wow. And I've been talking a lot and I'm meeting somebody from Newcastle University in a week or so whose research topic is women with internalized misogyny.

That's really interesting.

And that Barbie movie quote, it's like, men hate women, women hate women. It's the one thing we can all agree on. It's that.

Yeah. Because we've been forced to compete. This is— I think this is the issue, because I had it when I did stand-up comedy. I was actually— because, you know, this is— I went on stage and most stand-up comedians female stand-ups will wear dressed-down jeans, t-shirts. There's not that many that will go dressed up because you want to play down your femininity, not just because you're trying to be taken, you know, the level playing field, but because you know that when you stand up there and it's a room full of husbands and boyfriends and girlfriends and wives.

Mm-hmm.

The women will be judging you to see if you're a threat, and it's not a conscious thing. So you want to try your best to not be competition for them. And it's— and it took me a while to sort of, you know, not that I ever dressed up in, you know, in fancy dresses and whatnot to perform, but it was a thing and it was talked about that you had to get the women on side as well as the men.

Yeah.

Really interesting stuff. Gosh, okay.

And it's all nonsense. It's all social conditioning. And it's based on the premise that, you know, in the olden days, to make ourselves, you know, not die of starvation, we had to make a good match because we couldn't— we weren't allowed to do anything else. So our rights only exist because of some benevolent men bestowing them on us. And if you look at what's happening in America, rights and, and the obviously the Taliban, rights can be removed by, you know, nefarious men. So it's, it's a very scary place to be in. And so some women try and kind of, we call them, you know, patriarchy's handmaidens. They, they, they try and like play that game and— We can spot them a mile off, and it's all projection and self-hatred, but it's also very damaging. And I think, you know, was it Madeleine Albright that said that there's a very, very dark place in hell for women who don't support other women? And you just have to approach those people with compassion and love and— to an extent, and then realize that you want to hide into nowhere and just sort of like bless them and leave. I don't have unlimited patience.

Oh, dear. That's, that's funny. No, it is true. It is true. Is that sort of— I was going to say Margaret Thatcher was notorious for not helping women come up and that sort of, you know, there's that also that sort of old hangup about, well, I had to, I had to crack my head open on the glass ceiling. So every other woman's going to do it too, you know.

So I'm just going to punish everyone else around me. For what happened to me. I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like I didn't have free school meals, so those children should just starve. It's that kind of level of like, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

I mean, yeah, exactly. So, oh, that's really interesting. And, and I think you mentioned, um, some of this already, but I had a specific question about the biggest ahas that women get when you share this stuff. Um, Beyond what we've talked about, the, the time is— what, what would you say comes up regularly for women? What are the sort of things that they're saying to you?

So we're terrified of what other people will think. Um, and I think one of the most, um, effective methods of coercion is that we internalize all these messages that we get as, you know, children, as pupils, as colleagues, as you know, in relationships, etc. And we start to control ourselves. And we, we still look around for that authority figure that's going to give us permission to do things. So I see my— I've got a project manager in organization, and she was perfectly chosen to kind of go through this good girl deprogramming journey with, and she put a blog on our website, and she still— it's that kind of, I can do whatever I want, that realization, almost like you're a kid in a sweet shop and you've got like £100 and was like, what do I do first? So it's almost like, slow down.

Yeah.

Slow down. So after that realization, it's like, I'm now going to change the world. Like, well, you just want to— it's like a marathon, not a sprint. We just need to Slow, but it's that understanding boundaries aren't selfish, understanding that self-compassion is not indulgence. And people are gonna— don't— whenever you do anything, people are gonna judge you and people are gonna criticize you. And, you know, the only, the only way to avoid that is like do nothing, be nothing, say nothing.

Yeah.

Who wants to live like that? That's really boring. So Accept that you're gonna attract and repel your people and you have permission to do whatever the beep you want.

Yeah, it's really, this is a big thing. I think I just, I think the podcast I recently did, I talked about, I think I was about 40 when I found out that, um, I did some work and I found out about the inner critic and the voice and everything else. But the other thing that they said was that The most powerful person in the world is the person that doesn't worry about what other people think about them. And it's not that you don't care, it's just that you are not, you're not constrained by this. And it feels like that's a nirvana that, that would be amazing to get to. And again, it's one of those things you have to sort of, you know, who's living your life? You only get, well, potentially only get one shot at this baby.

Yep.

What do you want to do and who's driving the car? You know, it's so interesting what you're saying about all of this stuff.

It's like those 3 circles. So draw 3 circles, one in the middle, and the innermost circle is what you can control. And then the second circle is what you can influence. And outside of your control, that's where everybody's judgments are. You can't become, you know, they're coming at you with their own lenses, their own preferences, their own whatever. You have to let that go.

Yeah. Yeah. Their own onions. Everyone's got their own onion.

And surprisingly, people do not think about you, everybody, as much as you think they do.

Exactly.

Because they're all busy with their own stuff.

Exactly. And this is the thing. This is something that really sort of impacts speakers, female speakers particularly, is worrying what other people will think, being, justifying why you're standing in front of the audience and You know, there are— it's not about you. Like, that's the biggest thing I think is like, you're a vehicle for this message the same as you are. And actually, people don't care about you. They only care about themselves. So, you know, that's what we're like. So never be stopped because you're doing a disservice to yourself, to the message, and to the people that you're going to be helping in sharing that message. So really, really good point to, uh, to make. And it proper winds me up, that does.

Um, Yes, me too.

Okay, so let's go back to the organizations now. And if you're working in an organization, given that, as we've said, organizations aren't going to change overnight, what are the 3 biggest, um, problems that women have to overcome to become deprogrammed? Like, you know, how can they navigate the organization, um, as a, as a, as a sort of deprogrammed woman.

So it's an interesting one. So if you know all of this stuff now, it's gonna be really— people will be presented by the universe to test your boundaries. People will literally just— as soon as you think you've got it cracked, somebody will appear that'll take you to the edge of your sanity yet again. And so it's all about knowing who you are, knowing what you will and will not tolerate. And I think the biggest, one of the biggest sources of inspiration within an organization is find your people and your ride or die people.

Yeah.

support each other because toxic, like, organizations, they can be very toxic and very traumatizing. So having the— and this is outside of organizations as well. So find your people is the most, is the most powerful piece of advice because that's what will get you through. Don't try and do this on your own. And even, even so, I literally wrote the book with with the proviso, do not read this book on your own. And there's a whole like, this is how you set up your good girl rebellion gang, and you can download all of that because we got this, we got into this mess together, we need to be together to get out of it.

And that makes, that makes absolute sense. Um, you said a word I hadn't heard it before. Before I go on to the next thing that I wanted to ask you, misandrist.

I've not heard that.

Is that like— I don't know why I haven't come across it. Maybe because it's never said. I don't know. But is it the opposite of a misogynist? Yeah.

People who hate men. So I get it. I get it a lot. Hashtag be less misandrist. So yes, misandry is the imaginary hatred of men. Because— and I don't know whether I said this to you the other week. So the reason why we know that human sexuality is not like chosen Is because women still marry men. That's a really good point.

Yeah.

But yeah, it's the, it's the typical, like, throwback from your incel types that if you sniff of feminism, then that's what they throw at you. So me and my friend joke that we should start a band called the Misandrists.

It's quite a nice word, actually.

It is.

It's a nice word. I don't know how I haven't come across that before. Really interesting. Okay, cool. Now, you did this. You just mentioned some resources to accompany the book. One of the resources to accompany the book is the Good Girl Quiz. Can you tell me a bit about that? And it's even on the back of the thing. Look at that and the little QR code.

You do the little QR code. So interestingly, I wrote 84,000 words of this book. I, I took out about 50,000 words because it was really too long, um, because there's so much to talk about. Obviously that'll be used in book number 2, 3, 4, 5, whatever. And, um, and particularly because of that chapter, that chapter on all of the ways that women are tired. So it's like strategic exhaustion. I was like, women do not have the time to read 84,000 words. So, what would be really useful is to have a way of being able to say, here's a book, do a quiz, figure out which chapters you need to read, and get on with your life. So, it was a bit of a shortcut. And then me being me, it's 72 questions. And— But even answering the questions, I've been told is really helpful because you could almost answer them in like, this is me at work or this is me at home. So we have, I have created a Good Girl at Work quiz, but it's not publicly available yet.

Watch this space.

For book number 2, because it's, some of the things are more pronounced and some of the things are less. So yes, doing, just even doing the quiz is useful to get you to think.

So what, what do you want to achieve? Let's say, like, if you could sort of—

World domination, obviously.

No, it's interesting. I want you to fast forward to, to, you know, your, you know, your last day on Earth. Looking back, what would you have won? What would be success for you in relation to this mission that you're on?

That's really, it's a really interesting question. So, being able to nip it in the bud before it starts. So, talking to parents about how to raise children. Don't do the whole, well, you must be a boy, so you must be raised to be like brave and risk-taking, and you're a girl, so you need to wear t-shirts with be kind on and all of that. So— Yeah.

It's—

so there has to be like a change from a parent to school. And, you know, we should just be raised as humans.

Hmm.

And everybody's got different preferences. And yeah, we just need to stop putting little girls in pink unless they, you know, unless they want to wear pink and, and little boys in blue. And it's like, and Yeah. So, it starts so young. I remember my niece. We are all— it's hilarious because we've all got long hair, but as children, I was bald until I was 2, and my niece had that same affliction. And her mum put her in a— her dad was a Leeds fan, bless him, and put her in a Leeds outfit, like Leeds strips.

Nice.

So, this little bald 2-year-old girl in the Leeds leads Kit out, and so many was like, oh, he's a little— he's a lovely little fella, isn't he? Lovely little fella. It's like, no, she's called Sophie, she's a girl. And it's, it's that. It's like, stop with the external cues of what gender you are. It's ridiculous. It's just— yeah, so nipping all of that in the bud.

But when you look at that as well, everything that you just said Is because we are worried about what other people will think.

Yeah.

At the bottom, at the bottom of everything is this status and this, you know, there's, there's good girl conditioning and then there's us human conditioning to stay within our box. But that's—

it's— Cave people did not survive if they were on their own. We only survived because we were in tribes. Yeah, that's true. So, I think this is an evolutionary thing that we are battling. I think it's, you know, our brains don't know the difference between a saber-toothed tiger and a test tomorrow. It's the same physiological response. So, what will people think? You know, I don't wanna be kicked out of the tribe. Nowadays, you can, you know, get kicked out your tribe, you just go on the internet and find a new one. It's like, it's fairly easy.

Yeah, yeah.

But in cave people days, if we were kicked out of a tribe, you were going to die. And our brain still remembers that. So I think there is— I think there needs to be a little kind of some self-love around that and self-forgiveness, because it can be really hard going against. And I'm reading a really good— I can't remember what it's called, like who it's by, but it's all— it's called, um, The Bystander Effect. So it's all about the, the courage and bravery to—

Yeah.

Be that dissenting voice.

Yeah, yeah. Um, really interesting. It's, uh, yeah, we've got to give ourselves some grace is what you're saying. Yes, along the journey. Um, good.

Okay, so everything's our fault. So we're like, everything's our fault, and now we've figured out we're broken, so it's still our fault. It's like, no, this is the way the world has been made, and we didn't choose this world. So, but everything is Man, well, everything is pretty much man-made, but we can, we can change things. Things don't have to always be like this.

Even the crash test dummies. As I was, I was on the roller coaster the other week on holiday, and all of the dummies for the roller coaster were men. I was like, where's the, where's the woman roller coaster dummy?

So it gets really interesting. Unbelievable. Cool.

Now you've obviously got the book. We're gonna talk about the book in a minute and where they can get— people can get it. You also speak. What have been the biggest challenges for you in creating your talk around this subject and around the book?

I think the big one has been that I'm an expert and I'm almost— I'm conditioned, like, deconditioned now. And so, I've found it really difficult to be able to put myself back into that beginner, not the expert mindset.

Yeah.

And kind of having to remind myself that there are a lot of people on this planet who have never heard of Brené Brown. So, it's that kind of, remember.

Yeah.

It's, yeah, it's about them and their journey and bringing them along with you and not alienating them by being a psychologist because we do know, like we like a long word and a term and one, and that I used to really worry about, you know, I don't sound like I'm a professional psychologist enough because I don't use all the big words. So there's like, there's all sorts of stuff in there, but it's that expert mindset.

Yeah, it can be crippling for your message and your success without you even being aware of it. And it, you know, so you, you're absolutely right. Sometimes you've got to open people's eyes to the problem, which you're, you know, which you are having to do, but to get their eyes open, you, you know, you've got to frame the problem in a way that they can see it for themselves and understand it easily. So absolutely, absolutely right. Cool.

Yeah. And one of the sad things about this whole thing is A lot of women come to me and say that they don't even know what they want because they are so removed from their bodies, their desires, their wants, their needs, their wishes, that it's, it's almost like I'm just sleepwalking through life in the way that I think I should. And I don't even know what I want.

That's awful, isn't it? That is awful. And that is when you do get to the day before your last day on earth and you look back and say, oh, if only, if only. And this book is a way to access that if only and start making a change today. Brilliant. Cool. Well, I want to share a bit more about where people can find the book and so on, but I've just got a couple more questions to ask if that's all right. Standard questions. Yeah, go for it.

Yeah.

What's the best thing that speaking has done for you?

It's connecting with your people. So, in an audience, there's gonna be people that think it's rubbish, people that love it, and then people are like, oh, that's interesting. So, it's those people that love it and wanna talk about it. And I just find that like really exciting. And we just get really like excited and, you know, giggly and, you know, ranty about it. So, finding those ranting partners that actually can believe that things can change. So that's that bit there, finding, finding your people.

Brilliant. And then the people that are on the fence, chances are you're shifting their perspectives as well and tipping them over. So exactly right. And forget the others because, you know, what, have you had a speaking gig in your career so far that didn't go right that you want to forget? Has that happened to you?

At all. So luckily we discovered improv during the pandemic. So we used to do Friday improv with a wonderful coach and ADHD trainer. And, and so having that, so I have turned up twice with my beautifully presented— I like things pretty. I like some slides, you know.

I know.

I've turned up twice and It's not— the slides have not been available, that, you know, there's no way to project them or, you know, there's no room or whatever. And, and your heart just thinks, I've got ADHD and other things. And, you know, there's a part of me that's like, I'm just going to be Mariah Carey about this. You know, I want to be able to show my slides. That's in my rider, you know, and like green M&Ms or whatever.

Yeah, yeah.

I don't even like M&M's, but anyway.

I was gonna say brown ones, but then I went the same place as you.

Oh, orange straw, orange Smarties. They're the best, aren't they? But yeah, so turning up and just having to wing it without the slides, because the slides are also from an accessibility for me and reasonable adjustment. I get lost. What I'm talking about. And having those slides there help me be able to give my message so that not just like it's interesting for the audience, but also helps me know what I'm trying to talk about.

Yeah.

So that has happened. But my improv is just like, you know what, one of them I just, I just talked about me for a bit and the other one I did a little introduction and got people to ask me questions.

Cool. So you sort of went, you managed it.

Yeah, listen, accept, commit, improv.

Absolutely. Absolutely. I like that. And you do, you do, you do, you do do that. So that's brilliant. Okay. Next question. What's the book that's had most impact on your life and why?

I'm going to cheat and say there's 2 of them. So one is the Be More Pirate book by Sam Conniff. So that gave me the permission to be myself. And unsurprisingly, he then got a late diagnosis of ADHD himself. And I tracked him down and made him be friends with me as well, which is not normal, but that's okay. And then the second one is Playing Big by Tara Moore. So it's all about all the different ways that women play small in the workplace. And of course, like, like the previous book, I tracked her down and I did, I did training with her. So I'm starting her Playing Big facilitators training for the 4th time next month.

So. Oh.

She lets us— you go on it once and she lets you come on every year. So there have been some changes. So I'm gonna go and play with them as well, just to— because you learn something new every time.

Yeah, that sounds really cool actually, playing big.

Stalking, stalking writers is like literally my life's work.

I do bet that too.

Excellent.

Cool. Uh, what's the best bit of business advice you've had and why?

The worst bit of business advice literally came into my mind, which is, you're too nice to have a, you know, you're too nice to run a business. You should just go and get yourself a job, Michelle.

Oh no.

Yes, old white man, of course, said that to me. Best bit of business advice is be yourself. You will attract the right people. If you're trying to be somebody that you are not, you're not going to be able to talk about your business because it's going to bore the living daylights out of you. And I'm saying this from experience because my first business I set up was a very boring psychology practice, and then the second one was called Work Pirates. So it's that. I love that.

Okay, good. And so true as well. And I, in fact, the title of— I, when I first came across you, that was one of the things that really sort of made me feel connected to you into, you know, back to that tribe thing. Because I thought, oh yeah, that's so cool. That's so cool. Um, okay, last question then. If you could have one mentor, and they can be alive or dead, fictional or non-fictional, who would you choose and why?

That's a really good question. And the first person that popped into mind was Madonna.

Oh yeah.

Because she literally does not G-A-F about what people think about her. She, she tries things, she plays, she is the queen of reinvention. And I just, I just think she will help— she would help me be like braver and take more risks. And yeah, I think Madonna. There we go.

You need to get her on your podcast.

Oh, I know, she's on the list.

Excellent, excellent. Which is, which is a nice segue to talk about, first of all, since we've mentioned it, the podcast. Tell me about that.

So I always joke that because I've got like Good Girl Deprogramming trademark, I have to call everything that now. Podcast is called the Good Girl Deprogramming Podcast, unsurprisingly. So, that's quite new. Only set it up in September.

Right.

But it is a really lovely way to speak to really interesting people that wouldn't normally speak to you if you were just like, can we have a chat? It was like, would you like to come on my podcast? And they go, oh yes, I'd love to come on your podcast. So, I've got some really exciting guests that I've already recorded with, and I'm recording, and I have on my wishlist. You're on, you're on my list. You know that. But yeah, it's just a way of exploring different things. And I always ask my podcast guests for a question for the audience to consider.

Interesting.

Because there's so much advice out there that sometimes it's just like, stop giving me advice, stop telling me what to do, give me a question to consider. So those, and I'm like, hmm, they're going to make a good little, little book at some point, all of these questions.

Yeah, definitely. Definitely.

Everything is a book in my life at the moment.

Well, that's good. That's good. Or, or a talk, in fact. Um, so I think that's really interesting because I think that's something that I found with doing this podcast is that you have to take action. Like, you can keep absorbing stuff, but you have to implement. And so I think that's something— I think that approach around having a question, get even getting people to actually think Is, is in action as well. So that's, that's a good point. Um, and what about the book? Where can people get the book?

So it is paperback and ebook and on audiobook. So you can only get it on Audible because they have ridiculous royalties if you let it go anywhere else. So I'm tied to Audible at the moment, but yes, you can, you'll be able to find it it anywhere. Google, obviously on the dirty Amazon word, it's all over that. I don't know why we're so reticent about Amazon all of a sudden, but yes, you can get it wherever you would get your normal books. It might take you a wee bit longer because Amazon do the print-on-demand thing. So if you want it quickly, that's your best bet.

Brilliant.

Okay, cool.

And then, so you are a speaker, keynote speaker working in organizations. Where's the best place for people who want to get you to speak can go to find out more and just generally about you, Michelle?

I am all over LinkedIn. So I do have a website, michelleminikin.com. We also have workpirates.com, obviously. But if you want to talk to me, I am pretty much every day, all day, every day, not that bad, but I love LinkedIn. Because I've managed to curate my, like, my feed with just really powerful women and interesting dudes. And it's just, it's lovely. So I quite enjoy spending time on there too.

That's brilliant. Well, listen, thank you so much for writing the book, being the rebel and, and pushing against this conditioning and just opening up our eyes to all of this stuff and, you know, basically committing to Get that message out there. Really appreciate it, and for all the things that you've shared today, Michelle. Thank you.

Yeah, thanks for having me on.

You're more than welcome. Good luck with everything.

Cheers.

How has this episode made you feel? Did you experience any resistance to the idea and the concept of good girl conditioning, or did it open your eyes to what's been going on in your life and how you've been sort of oppressed in, in a way. That's kind of what we're talking about here. You see, I love that Michelle is so passionate about this and, you know, the way she talks about it and the way that she's lifting this veil is really going to help people understand the thoughts, the feelings, behaviors that hold them back from speaking and from other areas of their life and business. And if you want to go deeper in all— into all of this stuff, then do buy Michelle's book, Good Girl Deprogramming. Go and have a listen to the podcast she's launched recently of the same name, and go and take the Good Girl Quiz. Let's see how much you're affected by this. And as ever, you know I always say this. Michelle would love to hear from you if you've found anything particularly enlightening, if it resonated with you in this episode. Let her know. Go and find her on LinkedIn, which is where she hangs out, and let her know. And before I head off, I wanted to just remind you that we now have Patreon. And not only is it a way of supporting this show to come out and you know give you the tips and value for your speaking journey to move you forward, but it's also going to give you access to some exclusive content from my guests and from myself, and also contact with me where you can ask questions. And other stuff, so do check out our Patreon. It starts from $5 and it would be brilliant to have you in the community. Thank you again for choosing to watch or listen to The Speaking Club. I really appreciate you taking the time to choose us and give us your attention. We don't take it for granted. We know how precious attention is. And I know how precious, precious attention is. And so yeah, really appreciate you coming over. If you love the show, then do subscribe, subscribe to the channel, leave a comment below if you're watching on YouTube. And if you are listening on, on a podcast, then do give a rating or review wherever you're listening, or you can also do that over at ratethispodcast.com/tspodcast. Well, that's all that's left for me to do until next we meet is to sign off as ever with this. Don't forget to go out, grab your life by the nuts, and get cracking. Bye-bye. It's a nightmare. You're an expert with so much to say. But now that you've been booked to speak, you're struggling to know exactly what to talk about. You want a talk that engages the audience and wins you new clients without you losing your personality or anyone feeling pitched to. But what happens when you sit down to create that talk is that you end up staring at a blank page for ages, or worse, surrounded by hundreds of sticky notes with content that you've could include. With so much material, you just don't know where to start or finish. Don't worry, because many experts like you face exactly the same challenge, and that's why I created the Blank Page to Stage Guide. In just 50 minutes, this breakthrough resource is going to help you identify the big idea of your message, make it relatable for the audience that you're speaking to, and convey it all in a way that gets the audience inspired and on board with your idea. And it works even if you have tons of material or your subject feels less than exciting. If you want to cut through swathes of content and get a talk that you're excited to share, your audience loves, and wins you new clients, then grab your Blank Page to Stage guide from saraharcher.com. Oh, I forgot to say, it's completely free.

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