Struggling with Speaking Nerves? Turn Anxiety into Confidence with Heather Lillico - 315

Hello, you are watching and listening to Sarah Archer and episode 315 of the Speaking Club podcast. And I want to start this show with a quote from Sir Edmund Hillary, the explorer who was one of the first people to summit Mount Everest. And this is all about fear. It is not the mountain We conquer, but ourselves. I started this podcast for 2 reasons: because I want to help people recognise the power of stories and humour in speaking, and because I believe it's your message that counts, not the number of ums and ahs you use. There are some organisations that want to create robot speakers. They want you to sacrifice your personality in order to speak perfectly. I want to let you know that you can be yourself And a sensational speaker. So if you want to be a speaker that connects and engages authentically through stories, a speaker that gives value as well as a great performance, then welcome home. Hey, welcome to the show. How are you? I am very well. I think I better— this is going to apply to those of you that are watching rather than listening, but I better address the elephant in the room. I have had the chop. And what I mean by that is that I've had a haircut. I am playing a male impersonator, one of the music hall superstars from back in the Victorian and Georgian era, or as you might know it better, the Bridgerton era. And, and yes, so I'm gonna— I normally, like, I've played this character before and I normally cut my hair, but not too short. But today, this week, I thought I'll just I'll go for it. And the funny thing is that I FaceTimed my mum after I had done the hair, got it cut, and her first reaction was, oh no, which wasn't very positive, but then she spent the whole afternoon sending me messages to make up for it. Although she does, every time I've spoken to her since, she does say, oh, well, it will grow out. But I have had other positives from other people, and I actually like it myself. Although I do hope that the weather warms up a bit because my ears are chuffing cold. But enough about my gory locks. That's one for the Macbeth lovers. Let's get on with talking about this particular episode. I first came across Heather when I read an article on Tiny Buddha. And it's one she'd written. And in the article, she was talking about how she felt a hypocrite because she was a nutritionist, but behind the scenes, she was suffering and struggling with an eating disorder. So, sort of by day, she was telling people how to eat and what to do, and then she was sort of not doing that herself at the time. And that inspired me to go and have a look at her journey. And what I discovered was that she'd had a long relationship with anxiety. But she'd found some unusual tools, um, to help her manage and master it. And today she is a nutritionist, holistic nutritionist, yoga and meditation teacher, and she calls herself an anxiety warrior too. And I'm sure that you'll discover why, uh, and why that is when we go through the interview. I have to say that, uh, in the show we do mention about sexual trauma, and I just want to flag that if that's something that might trigger you, maybe skip this one. But if not, I'm sure you're gonna get a load of tools and tips because I know that a lot of speakers suffer with anxiety and nerves, even experienced speakers, and it can really sabotage your results or even stop you from getting started, and we don't want that. So there's lots in here that's gonna help you, um, maybe reframe the way you think about it, practical tools to intervene when you're feeling those nerves. But, uh, yeah, I'm really excited to share it with you. So without further ado, Let's switch over to the interview with me and Heather. Welcome to The Speaking Club, Heather Lillico.

Thank you. Thank you, Sarah, for having me. I'm so excited for our chat today.

So am I, because I think we're going to be talking about something that can hinder quite a lot of people, uh, in many areas of their life, but it comes up often around speaking, and that's The subject of anxiety. But before we go into that—

Yeah, exactly.

I wanted to just go back to the sort of, you know, talk about your journey a little bit first. I saw an article that you wrote for Tiny Buddha, and it was about your experience of being a bulimic nutritionist, which was like really— I thought, you know, it was really vulnerable to sort of call that out and put your, you know, put that out there.

But But where did anxiety fit for you in getting into that situation?

Was it the main factor?

Yeah, it's, it's a good question to really, uh, set the context here. So I struggled with an eating disorder for over a decade, and it was really something that manifested as a result of so many other factors. So growing up, I was a perfectionist, I was a people pleaser, I was an overthinker, an overachiever, and a lot of that sort of set the stage for developing an eating disorder, sort of put me at risk. And then when I was in university, I suffered from a sexual assault trauma. And so all of that sort of coupled together led to the eating disorder, to coping with food, and anxiety really was the root of all of that. Now, growing up, I really didn't know how to process strong emotions like anxiety. I grew up in a time where we really didn't talk about Emotions. And I think that's, that's changing now, which is really exciting. Last week, I was in a school, and I was teaching yoga and meditation to kindergartners, which is really exciting. Like, I'm just imagining if, you know, I had that level of support at that age. But anxiety really was the root, because when I experienced strong emotions of anxiety, and sometimes that came from not feeling good enough, from feeling like people were going to judge me, feeling like I couldn't make a mistake, or I was going to fail, When I would experience anxiety, I needed to numb out because I didn't know how to process it. And I didn't know how to really sit with it and sort of ride the wave of it. And I was just at war with it and fighting it. And so I turned to food. And I think there is sort of a continuum, you know, that a lot of us do turn to food for, for comfort. For me, it sort of crossed that line where I was in such a state of shame around my behavior and using food to cope. And I felt like such a hypocrite because here I was as this new nutritionist. And I would be counseling clients and I would say, okay, let's, you know, incorporate some vegetables this week and eat really healthy. And then right after that call, I would go and I would binge on an entire pizza and then I would purge afterwards. So I felt so much shame around all of that. And the biggest change I think came from learning how to process anxiety and how to sit with the uncomfortable emotions And stop fighting it and learn how to really reprogram that I'm worthy no matter what. I'm good enough no matter what. And when I did that, the anxiety started to come down.

Oh, that's really good.

Um, I mean, how did you end up getting into nutrition?

Because it, you know, the spaces that you're occupying are very, not completely, but image focused. And I got the impression that You know, self-image was a big issue or, you know, part of the problem as well. How did you end up there? Was it just because you were interested in it from that and it led you into that, you know, in that direction?

Yeah, I think, you know, if I'm being radically honest, I think the reason I got into nutrition and becoming a nutritionist is because I was so interested in weight loss and I thought that I had sort of equated thinness with being happy and being fulfilled and being worthy. So I really wanted to understand nutrition better, I think, probably so that I could control my weight and thinking that, you know, it would, it would make me happy. Now, the— what ended up happening was I started to see this really interesting link between nutrition and mental health. And I started to get interested in, huh, there are certain foods that when I eat, I actually feel a lot better. And it had nothing to do with calories. So I started to transition more into seeing food as a positive thing that we could use. And that this is the space that I work with now, is helping people with a holistic approach to managing anxiety. And nutrition is such a big component, and it's such an underrated, underutilized component because a lot of us don't make that link between what we're eating and how we're feeling. And nutrition really does have the power to, to provide us with the building blocks For calm. But if— I think that's really how I got into it, was a want to sort of like hack my way into better health and being a certain weight, thinking that it would bring me that happiness I desired.

That's really interesting. Like, I think it's that there's that body health and that mind health, and, and it sounds like that that's the shift that you made. One of the things that I read that you talked about was I think I've got this right, anti-anxiety nutrients. Is that, is that right?

There are certain foods that have evidence behind them that they can contain certain nutrients that help us feel calm. So some of the major nutrients we look at when it comes to food are things like magnesium, one of our incredible minerals. It's involved in over 300 reactions in the body, and it has a big role in helping us feel calm. One of its main mechanisms is that it helps create GABA, which is our relaxing neurotransmitter. We look for foods containing magnesium. So these are nuts and seeds. These are some of our leafy greens. So incorporating foods like that, or zinc is another big mineral that can help with mood. Incorporating fermented foods as well. These contain live bacteria that help our gut health. And gut health is really like the key to mental health is what I've seen so many of my clients struggle with. issues like IBS or bloating or heartburn, because there is a really big link between the mind and the gut. So incorporating foods like that or even foods with, with antioxidants like bright colored foods, think like red cabbage, bell peppers, carrots, sweet potatoes. These kind of foods contain antioxidants that help support the brain.

Wow. So that whole thing about having a really colorful plate It's not only like it's, it's, it is back to that holistic mind and body. It's influencing that, and I hadn't really thought about it in that way before. So that's really interesting. Now the next question I want to ask you is: It feels to me on your journey you have tried a variety of things, and indeed today you teach a variety of things with the goal of you know getting people back into balance and. healthy in, in, in all sorts of ways. Of everything that you've tried to manage your anxiety, what has had the biggest impact, do you think, and why?

So I'm going to give you like a little bit of an umbrella answer here, because what I have, what I have seen through my own journey is that there was no silver bullet. Like, there wasn't, you know, just, just one thing. And when I first started exploring for myself, I was working in the corporate world. And I was working in mental health, but more at like the policy level. And I ended up feeling so burnt out, feeling so exhausted, total imposter syndrome. Like, I really didn't feel like I knew what I was doing. And I was going to make a mistake and get fired. And so I ended up leaving that corporate world and going on this journey to figure out, like, I'm not going to live the rest of my life like this. Surely there has to be something more. And so I went on this journey to figure out what is it that's going to make The difference. And I was becoming a nutritionist at that time. And that's when I started to get interested in the role between food and mental health. And I started to see, oh, when I tweak my diet and add in these mood-boosting foods, I feel calmer. So that was sort of one piece of the puzzle. And then when I started practicing yoga consistently and doing this lower intensity type of movement— growing up, I was a figure skater. And so when I sort of left that figure skating world, I was all about boot camps and circuit training and high-intensity interval training. And a lot of that was stressing out my already stressed out hormones. So when I started practicing yoga, I learned that I could regulate my nervous system, that I could be more in tune with my body and my breath. So that was another piece of the puzzle. And then the last piece was learning to practice meditation and learning to practice it properly because I was a chronic overthinker. And so I would sit there going, okay, just don't think. Don't think now. You're thinking, you're having a thought, you're terrible at this. And so I wanted so badly to quit. But when I learned how to practice it properly, and how to just allow the thoughts to come and go, I started to feel more in tune, more in control, you could say, with my thoughts and emotions. And so it was really these pieces of the puzzle that came together. So in terms of, you know, what has made the biggest difference in anxiety, I would say it's my daily routine. AKA my habits. Because what I've seen is that your actions determine your beliefs. And so I was running this underlying belief that I wasn't good enough, I wasn't worthy, I wasn't deserving. And by focusing on my daily routine and my habits, I've stepped into someone who prioritizes themselves. That's my new belief, right? Someone who trusts themselves, who says they're going to do something and actually follows through on it. Someone who is worthy. That's what I became by focusing on the daily routine and the habits.

So that's an interesting, uh, view of that because often people talk, you know, there's a lot of people who have— see things the wrong way around in terms of when I get thin, then I'll be able to do X and I will be happy. And then there's the people that say there's the be-do-have model, which is I am gonna be a person who is, you know, healthy and, you know, fit, and I'm therefore gonna do the things that a person would do if they were healthy and fit, and then I will have, you know, a great whatever. But it sounds like you're kind of taking a slightly— which is like building up the evidence to yourself through the actions that you are being that person. Is that— it seems like a slight shift to the usual approaches.

Yeah.

Yeah, we could see it as a slight shift. I mean, I think it is helpful to first identify, like, you know, what is this version that I want to step into? Right? Because otherwise, it's sort of like we're getting in the car and we're driving, but we don't really have our GPS set anywhere. So if we kind of have that lens of, you know, when I work with clients, I always ask them, what does this leveled up version of yourself look like? Like, what is she doing? You know, where is she hanging out? How is she— taking up space in the world? How is she being? And when we kind of have that, then we can know, okay, well, what kind of habits is she doing, right? Because someone who believes that they're worthy probably is saying no to, you know, an extra engagement, because it would take away time from themselves to maybe meditate that day or, you know, do some of those, those behaviors. So I really do think it is the action that reinforces the belief you want to have. But of course, we have to have that Overarching perspective of like, who are we trying to become? What, you know, what is going to make us fulfilled and happy?

Yeah, and then it becomes this virtuous sort of flywheel of one thing fueling the other and, and building that momentum towards the, the end destination. Absolutely, that's, that's really helpful. So let's turn a bit more to speaking now because this is the Speaking Club. Um, the first question I've got around this is, what would you say is the difference between everyday nerves and full-blown speaking anxiety and How can someone tell which they have?

Yeah, it's a, it's a good question. So I think we have to really get to what's the purpose of anxiety, right? Like, why do we experience anxiety? And anxiety is simply a state of activation, and it's really there to alert you to something. It's to help you get focused, to help you get ready, and it's usually a sign of possible danger. Now, if we're going into a public speaking environment, We're putting ourselves out there, right? And so it's kind of natural that we would expect some type of jitters or anxiety. I had this experience recently. I was doing a lunch and learn for a company. I do a lot of corporate wellness speaking. And right before I got on stage to speak to the company, it was going to be like 100 or so people. I started to feel my heartbeat fast and I started to feel that my palms got a little sweaty and I started to feel that kind of like, oh my gosh, can I do this? Am I about to do this? What's going to happen? That type of anxiety, I think, is perfectly natural, right? It's a state of activation. And if we remember that it's there to sort of keep us focused and alert, it can actually be helpful. And so what a lot of people don't realize is that the physiological signs in the body, so like the body symptoms of anxiety and excitement, are very similar. So what I practiced in that moment was what we call anxiety reappraisal, which is I'm activated right now because I'm excited to speak. I'm excited to share my message. I'm about to get out there and potentially have an impact on people's lives. This is incredible, like how grateful I am that this is my work. So that can be, that can be helpful when we're in that type of anxiety. I think where it crosses the line is where it stops us from doing things. So when we feel like we have a message that we want to share, we really do want to get up on a stage. But we feel like, I just— I'm not ready, right? Is that like waiting for everything to be perfect to act? Or if we're going into a lot of overthinking, I think that's where it crosses the line as well. So maybe after you've spoken, you're replaying every part of what you said. Oh, I wish I said something different. Why did I say that? Or sometimes if I am taking questions, as you know, at the end of a session, I think of like, oh, should I have given that response? You know, was that the best option? Or, oh, I missed this part. I wish I didn't do that.

Mm-hmm.

When we start to cross over into that territory of the overthinking, the second-guessing, the inaction, right, not hopping on opportunities, that's when it gets into self-sabotage territory. And I think that's where we want to think about addressing it. And I think it's helpful to remember that anxiety itself is not the enemy, just being in a state of activation. That's okay. Your body can handle it. It's super uncomfortable, but it's, but it's not dangerous. So what I always tell clients is you can be uncomfortable and still act. You can be anxious and still act. It doesn't need to prevent us from taking the action. Like, you can be scared and still show up.

Yeah, that's a, that's a really good distinction, I think, because what I have seen is that people can get anxious about being anxious as well. which then drives them into a, a bigger spiral. So I think that normalizing anxiety is a really important, uh, thing to, to make people aware of. And, you know, certainly, you know, I talk about this a little bit, which is that, you know, just like an athlete on the blocks, just like anyone about to go into a high-pressure, high-performance situation, it—

that's what your body's doing.

It's getting you ready for peak performance, like you just said.

Yeah.

Activated in that sense, because That's what you're going to be doing. So I think that's a really useful distinction that you, you made there. So thank you for that. So I think we might have covered this, and you mentioned, uh, something that you do in terms of an anxiety appraisal. But when people are in that state of activation at the side of the stage, waiting in the wings, and they're worried that it's going to derail their performance, or they're, they're breathy, and all of the stuff that comes with this sometimes. Could you give us maybe something else that you do, a hack to, to get to reset that and get back to balance and calm?

Absolutely. So if we remember that anxiety is about danger, right, it's, it's that something about this situation is feeling unsafe. And so that's why the signal, the activation is coming to alert you to this possible danger and help you and help you act or run away, right? It's that fight, flight, or freeze response. So there's a technique that I've developed called Tap Into Your Heart. And I'm happy to teach it for our listeners and for you. And I think it might be helpful for people in those moments when we're feeling activated. So if we think of HEART as an acronym, in this technique, you'd place your hand on your heart. And you would just first halt. That's the H. Okay, so you just want to pause whatever you're doing and really just acknowledge, okay, I'm in a state of activation right now. And there is a distinction that we can make there between I'm anxious and I'm having a feeling of anxiety, right? Because those are 2 different things, slightly different language. The first one, I'm anxious, is about an identity, right? Like I'm an anxious person. I'm having a feeling of anxiety automatically gets us some separation from it. And that's what we're looking for. So if we just start by stopping, we halt, pause whatever we're doing. And then the E in tap into your heart is explore. Every emotion that we have has some sort of sensation in the body that comes along with it. And so we can just explore, where do I feel this in the body? Well, probably if you're waiting in the wings to go out to public speak, your heart is beating fast. Oh, you might get that pit in your stomach, like it's just dropped. Maybe it feels like you can't take a deep breath. Your thoughts are racing, right? We have these types of sensations. So we can just explore without any— Judgment behind it. It's just a curiosity. What am I noticing right now? And then also explore what's going on, right? Why am I feeling nervous to go out right now? Well, probably I'm feeling like I'm going to be judged. I'm going to have to put myself out there, right? I'm feeling like, oh my gosh, what if nobody resonates with what I say? What if I mess up? What if I look silly? What if I look dumb? It really all comes down to like a fear of judgment. So if we can just have that awareness of what's going on, That'll help bring a little bit of softness to it. And then the A is accept. And acceptance is all about compassion, right? We don't have to like what we're feeling. It's very uncomfortable, but we do have to accept that in this moment, that's what's coming up. And really what's happening is what I've learned is that anxiety is so much related to our subconscious mind, and our subconscious mind forms when we're a kid. So When we're in this state of activation, really what's happening is this child version of ourselves is coming online, and they're feeling scared. That's the feeling of unsafety, the feeling of danger. So if we can offer that scared little 6-year-old some words like, I get it, I get that this sucks, I get that you're nervous to go out on stage, I get that this feels hard. Yeah, it feels really crummy to feel this way. Right? We've just brought some compassion, some validation to what we're experiencing. And then we go into the R, which is restore safety. If anxiety is about safety, let's help ourselves feel safe. So let's help that scared little 6-year-old feel safe. So we might offer them some words like, you are safe. I'm going to take care of you, right? You're the adult in this situation. So offer them the safety that maybe they have never gotten before, that they've never felt. So let them know, I'm going to take care of you. You can trust me. And that trust is really something that's built through action. So we offer them some safety. And then the final action is T, take it forward. So how do we want to show up, right? So you might offer yourselves some words like, I'm going to show up and do my best. And that's good enough, right? You might remind yourself, my worth is never in question. I'm just here to show up. I'm here to share my story. I'm here to make an impact. Right. Think about like, why are you doing this, this speaking opportunity? Right. There's something that pulled you to it, something that drew you. And I would bet it's about sharing your story and wanting to have a positive impact on the world. So really lean into that. But that's a technique that I, that I teach clients, and I found it to be immensely helpful in terms of moving through those situations. With a little bit more ease, and perhaps it helps us take a different action than we normally would. It helps us show up.

I like that because you're kind of like— it's like an intervention, isn't it? It's like an anxiety intervention, um, so that you're stopping that spiral. I really, I really like that. And I think just to, to build on the R in terms of taking it forward, and it's sort of something that you talked about, about people being excited to share their message. And one of the things that when I sort of talk to people about this is it's not actually about you, it's about your audience. And most, I would imagine most of the people that you work with, similar to the people that I work with, it is about having impact and helping to, you know, have a transformation in the audience. And so recognizing it's not about us, it can often shift that as well. But yeah, it's really cool. It's really cool. I like that. Smashing.

Okay, so I, again, we might have covered this, but I'll ask the question.

In your experience, um, working with people, what's the one thing that you think speakers should stop that's making their anxiety worse?

If I were to pick one thing that speakers should stop that's making anxiety worse, I think it would be delaying taking action, because anxiety thrives on inaction. Anxiety loves the what if, right? What if this were to happen and you couldn't handle it? And we sort of go to that worst case scenario. So, you know, what if— and I've had this exact chain of thoughts right before I get on stage and do a speaking opportunity— is what if someone in the audience stands up and says, this is horrible, like, you don't know what you're talking about. And that would be like my worst fear. Is that likely? No, probably not. But anxiety doesn't care about rational thought, right? It's just that, that worst case scenario, that what if. And so every time we delay taking action because we're feeling anxious, we sort of reinforce that belief that if the worst were to happen, we're not going to be able to handle it. So if we remind ourselves that we can, we can show up imperfectly, We can, we can show up, but we have to show up, right? We have to actually take the action. And really, like, the antidote in a way to anxiety is action. So still showing up, saying yes, and putting yourself out there will help build trust that whatever happens, you can handle it.

Oh, I like that. I think that's, that's something. It's not just in speaking that we do this. We wait for perfection. We wait for the stars to align and It never does. It's never going to be perfect. I love that. That's a really, really important point.

And sort of related actually to that is I had a client recently who was not in the public speaking realm, but they were asked if they wanted to go— some friends asked them if they wanted to go cross-country skiing. It's winter here in Canada and we have a whole lot of snow right now. And so someone invited them to go cross-country skiing. And their initial reaction was they only knew one of the friends and they thought, oh, well, you know, what if we're skiing, and then I end up by myself and get separated from the group? What if I get injured? And so they were starting to have a lot of anxiety about going. But they really did want to go, like something was, you know, sort of calling them to go and put themselves out there. So we went through a process of, of building trust, like, so identifying, okay, what are, you know, some of the worst case scenarios that you're scared of? You know, what if I get separated from the group? What if I get injured? And sort of plugging in after that fear, and I trust myself to handle it, right? If I get injured from, uh, or separated from the group, I trust myself to handle it, right? So then it sort of takes out that element of danger and brings in more safety, right? That you're gonna handle it, you're gonna take care of it. So whatever happens, and we can translate that to on the stage too, right? If whatever were to happen, I trust myself to handle it.

Absolutely. Yeah, it's really interesting actually in the way that we do this to ourselves, because I, I talk about, uh, a concept— this is pretty much the same thing, just the different words— which is this thing called imagined fear. And it's like we become the best movie directors in the world and like creatives, because we can— it's like we're creating these horror films for ourselves of everything that can go wrong.

And it's all imagined.

And like, again, you've got some great foundations there of, yes, and I can handle it. And then the other thing that I would, I would also suggest, and you possibly already do this with your clients, is to add in visualization, because then you're harnessing your imagination positively to run the movie in the way that you want it to go.

Absolutely.

Rather than in the nightmare scenario. So I think that's a really, really cool sort of, you know, your, your approach and then maybe build on it with actually harnessing that imagination. Because people say, oh, I'm not imaginative, I'm not creative. Well, hold the phone. You literally just created that whole thing for yourself. Yeah, it's amazing how it, it works against us. But yeah.

Yeah, right. Whatever we come up with, we think is like, is fact, right? That like, this is absolutely going to happen. And it's the sort of like, and so what, you know, if that were to happen, however, and like, sometimes where I sort of got stuck when I was doing CBT therapy is that I sort of got stuck because we would identify like, what's the worst, you know, what's the worst case scenario? And well, how likely is that? And what I realized is that the subconscious mind doesn't care about how likely it is, it's all about survival. And so we need to address Not that sort of discounting it that it's likely or not, but we need to really sit with the reality is that it feels really scary. So let's address that part of it.

Yeah.

Yeah. And like that, back to that child within us that, you know, that needs that reassurance. So, yeah, that's really cool.

Okay.

So I, I'm an ex-stand-up comic, and I remember when I started stand-up comedy, That we were advised not to start having a drink before your set, because if you start to have a drink, it becomes a crutch and you think that you can't perform without the alcohol. And I know some people might do that, or take things like beta blockers to cope with stage fright. And I wanted to see, just get your take on whether you think it's a helpful tool, Or just masking the problem?

This is actually such an interesting question because I have a client right now who one of their main goals was increasing their confidence, and so they wanted to do more public speaking, and so they joined Toastmasters. Do you have Toastmasters in the UK? Is it a global thing?

Yeah. Okay.

So they wanted to practice their, their public speaking skills, and so they, before we were working together, they started taking beta blockers to show up and do Toastmasters. And they said, you know, it went, it went fine. Like, I could show up and I would, and I could do the speech, but I really felt like I couldn't do it without it then. And I felt like I wasn't really getting to the root of why was I feeling nervous before speaking. So, and folks can, you know, sort of take this or leave this. This is my, my view. But I do think that it is, it is a crutch. It is a maybe potential short-term coping skill, but that it doesn't get into that deeper root, which is Why are we feeling scared to put ourselves out there, right? Why are we feeling like we can't be authentic? Or why are we scared of judgment? And I mean, fear of judgment is such an ingrained, you know, part of being a human. So it makes total sense that we would potentially fear that. But, you know, how is it preventing us from showing up as that person we want to be? So I think really addressing the underlying root of some of that, you know, feeling not good enough and the fear of judgment, I think that's really the key. And I sort of see this, to be honest, the same with anti-anxiety medication, that I think it can be a helpful tool for some, maybe in the short term to sort of get us back to a baseline where we can do the deeper work. But I don't think that long term that it addresses the underlying root, which is the where is the anxiety coming from? And how can we, you know, have really solid routines in place and take actions every day? That help us know that we're good enough and help us know that we can tolerate the uncomfortable emotions. Yeah.

And it's so, um, powerful that you've been on that journey yourself. So speaking from a position of experience and, and, and, you know, seeing what works and what doesn't. And, you know, that's, that's really important, I think. Now, you've mentioned this word, uh, before, uh, and that's compassion. And I see a lot of speakers, and again, you've mentioned this as well, that they'll come off stage and they'll focus on everything that went wrong. How important is self-compassion, um, in these sorts of scenarios where we're putting ourselves out there?

I mean, the inner critic can get loud, right, when we put ourselves out there, when we try something new, when we put ourselves in, in these situations, and I used to be someone who really struggled to take feedback, and it would just send me down like a self-worth spiral. And I remember even recently, I run an anxiety app called Cultivating Calm. And in that community, at first, I was sort of hesitant to do surveys and ask people, you know, how's it going? What are you liking? What do you want tweaked? Because I was even scared to get that feedback. And I thought, okay, Heather, like, you're never going to improve if you don't ask people for feedback. And this is sort of, you know, at the outset of the launch of the app. And I did this survey, and I found the results were overwhelmingly positive, and people were loving the app and everything. But there, there was someone who was saying, like, I'm really not seeing an effect of it. And I started to take that so personally and go down this self-worth spiral. And I had to really catch myself. And I did do that tap into the heart technique that I shared today. I did do that to see that I was feeling really unsafe about it. So I think when we remember that when we're activated, when we're feeling anxious, when the inner critic is getting loud and mean, that scared 6-year-old is online, right? And so thinking about what kind of words would I offer to them, because likely how we speak to ourselves is not how we would speak to a young child, right? So if we can sort of reframe our language and remind ourselves like that 6-year-old is scared, so what could I offer to them in this moment? That's going to help them feel safe, that's going to help them feel worthy and help them feel better. And one technique that I've employed that I have found really helpful, I heard it on a podcast where they said, if you were to give yourself a grade on how you took criticism, what would that grade be? And so that's sort of in the back of my mind when I'm receiving some feedback on something is I think And maybe this is like my inner perfectionist shining through and wanting an A+, but I think about, you know, okay, if I were to think about this situation and grade myself, how am I taking this feedback right now? Am I taking it in and using it as a growth opportunity, or am I just immediately shutting it down and thinking either, oh, that person doesn't know what they're talking about, or taking it and taking it too much to heart and thinking, oh yeah, I'm no good, you know, this. outshines everything. And so when I have that sort of thought of, well, how would I grade myself right now? Yeah, I think I'm doing, you know, I want to be proud basically of how I'm taking feedback. That kind of helps me bring more compassion into it.

I love that. And I think there's some words that you've said sort of that have sort of gone thread throughout this around detachment and noticing and observing. And I think The more that we can catch ourselves and, you know, do that, the better. I think those are really strong words. And, and I think that's something that I tried, uh, a meditation retreat, uh, 2 weeks I think it was. And a lot of the meditation I did was noticing, uh, stuff going on. Um, and I just wanted to get your take. Now you've mentioned it's one of the 3 things that the, the nutrition, the yoga, and the meditation that have helped you get, uh, the, the sort of control of your situation. Um, how would you advise people to start meditating? Is that a technique in meditation that you'd advise people to use, or where would you start them off?

The world of meditation is, is so big, and, and it's such a powerful tool. I think when I first started, what I found to be the most valuable was practicing an awareness-based meditation because, as you just beautifully outlined there, just becoming more aware and noticing things can be extremely helpful. So when I first started, there's this great book, The Miracle of Mindfulness by Thich Nhat Hanh, and it's all about being present. And so he talks about having, like, for example, when you're doing the dishes, feeling, the feeling of, you know, the warm suds on your hands, feeling the texture of the plate, and even saying to yourself, like, I'm doing the dishes, I know I'm doing the dishes. So I started to weave— before even doing like a really formal meditation practice, I started to just practice it in everyday situations. When I'm brushing my teeth, instead of, you know, thinking about the laundry I have to do and the to-do list that's really long, I would sort of say, I know I'm brushing my teeth, I feel the feeling of the toothbrush against my teeth. I can taste the minty toothpaste, I can feel it foaming up. And when I started to learn how to be more present in everyday situations, then— because anxiety is very future-focused, right? So it's, it's a really helpful tool because it helps us stay in the here and the now instead of going into that spiral mode. I think that's a helpful base. From there, where I've seen the greatest impact both for myself and the the community that I support, affirmation meditations can be very helpful when it comes to confidence and showing up. There's probably the most popular meditation on the app that I mentioned, Cultivating Calm, that I run is a confidence meditation, and it's in the morning. And just having these messages that you repeat to yourself, the I'm worthy, I'm good enough, I'm going to show up and do my best, that can really start to get them into To that deeper subconscious mind.

Brilliant. Now, you've mentioned Cultivating Calm a couple of times, and I wanted to— curious, how— what made you create that?

It was—

was it a COVID thing, or is it outside of COVID A lot of people went online in COVID, but tell me about how that came about.

Yeah, so I had been coaching one-on-one for almost a decade, and, and I thought that that was really helpful to really get, you know, sort of go deep with people. But what I found for myself and when I was on this journey is I really struggled with the daily rituals. Like, what are the things that I can do every day that help me feel calm? And I knew that I've sort of fine-tuned this method over working with hundreds of people over the past decade and seeing that, oh yeah, okay, when people meditate every day, they feel calmer. When people eat these mood-boosting foods, they feel calmer. And when they move their bodies in regulating nervous system types of ways, They feel calmer. But what I found is that all of that is spread out everywhere, right? You have one app for your meditation, and then you got to go scour the internet and search for recipes. And most people aren't even aware of what foods boost their mood. And then you maybe go take a yoga class once a week at a studio, or you're on YouTube, or, you know, you're— it's basically all spread out. So I wanted to create something that was a one-stop shop for people that they can access all of this. content in one place and have these really quick daily practices. Because the reality is that most of us are extremely busy and don't have time. So I've created this method that takes 30 minutes a day for folks to go on, do their practices, be able to track them, get that little hit of dopamine when, you know, when we track it, and also create a community. Because when I was struggling with anxiety, I felt so alone. I felt a lot of shame around what I was experiencing. I didn't have conversations with people where I really felt like people got it. And so I wanted to create this community where people can share what's going on for them and uplift each other. And really, like, we all have the same goal, is to live a more fulfilling, more calm, more purpose-driven, peaceful life. And that's, that's really what the app is designed for.

That sounds cool. Was it a challenge to get that from idea to, to birth?

Well, so I actually came up with it while we were traveling in just after COVID. My husband and I took about a year and a half, we left everything, we sold like all of our possessions, we left our apartment that we had, and we went traveling. And that was a really big discovery journey to take a step back from the business I had already built and think about what's working, what's not. And, and I started to think about maybe launching something that— and I had done group programs in the past, but launching something that was like a more built-out resource center for people that had courses as well, but also these, these pockets of resources. And someone suggested you should do an app. So it was sort of built out of that, and I worked on it while we were traveling and started to really, you know, nail down the idea of like what this was going to include and how it was going to help people. And then It's been out for about a year and a half now.

Oh, that's brilliant. That's brilliant. And we'll talk in a little bit about where people can find out more about that. So I've got one more question before I go into my standard questions, because I'm curious. You've worked with a lot of people, um, who struggle with extreme anxiety. What's the, the biggest and most sort of dramatic transformation you've seen that's possible for people when they start to take back control.

So there's one client that, that comes to mind. And of course, I'll change her name for anonymity. But let's call her Jessica. And when I first started working with Jessica, she came to me because she said, I, I don't know what makes me happy. I know I have the goal of being happier, but I don't feel like I know who I am, what I enjoy, and what makes me happy. And she was putting everyone else first. She was the classic people pleaser of, you know, anyone asked for anything, and she would just immediately say yes, or she was the one who was planning all the birthdays for people, and all the get-togethers. And she felt like she was putting way more effort into friendships than she was getting back. And so she was feeling really, really unfulfilled. And she was also scared to do activities like she really wanted to go solo traveling and book a trip by herself. But she felt just unsafe and scared to do it. So through our work together, we were doing some one-on-one coaching. And there's a one-on-one program I run with people called Level Up that is all about identifying like, who is it that you want to step into, and then helping them take those actions to get there in a really structured way. And one of the exercises we did was finding her authentic code. So what are the things that you are drawn to? And she found that one of her authentic code words was connection. And so it was really hard for her, the fact that she was having these friendships that she didn't feel like were reciprocated. And so she ended up having some tough conversations with friends that she never would have before, because she was scared to speak up and really stand up for herself. But through our work, she started to get a lot more confidence and get stronger to stand up. And so she had these, these tough conversations with friends where maybe she just would have left it. And I remember asking her after one conversation, like, how do you feel after, you know, speaking up and saying, I'm not getting what I need from this friendship? And she said, I feel so aligned. I feel like I'm acting like my authentic self. And when she continued to do that, she, she built trust with herself. She's also booked a solo trip now that she's going to go traveling and show up for herself. And I think like the power of this work is that it really deepens your connection with yourself. And a byproduct of that is with others, right? Like we have stronger relationships in our lives and feel more connected to people. when we know ourselves better and really act in alignment with that, with that authentic self. And a big part of that is releasing and letting go of the sabotage that holds us back, right? The overthinking, the second-guessing, the people-pleasing, the procrastination. All of this is so beautifully designed by the subconscious mind to keep us stuck. So when we identify, you know, what is our leveled-up version, who do we want to become, then we know what actions we can take. And yes, it's going to be uncomfortable, and yes, it's going to be a little messy and imperfect, but when we continue to show up, that's, that's where the magic happens.

I love that. I really think it's important to have a look at the way that we define the word selfish because it's a really negative thing, but it's only when we start putting ourselves first that we can be, you know, have better relationships and have you know, be more fulfilled and stop wearing the mask and say what we want. But it is such a hard thing for us to do. So that's— I love that. I'm, I'm, I'm so pleased that she's, uh, getting out there. That sounds, that sounds great. Well, thank you for sharing everything that you've, uh, been generously, um, giving away in relation to managing anxiety, uh, in all sorts of arenas, especially speaking. That's been great. I've got some standard questions to ask you. The first one is, what's the best thing that speaking has done for you?

I think speaking has been a big part of my healing journey, to be honest, because so much of what I share when I speak is my own personal story. And for so long, I felt so much shame. I mean, that the Tiny Buddha article that we mentioned at the beginning of our chat, That took— that was like a decade in the making of being able to speak about that. Like, I— even my closest friends knew nothing about what I was struggling with. And so to be able to then share that with the world has been incredibly healing and just allowing me to show up as more of my authentic self and, and seeing that message resonate with Others. I mean, after I do share my story, I usually get people saying like, I struggled with that too. And just hearing, you know, the fact that you have gone through it really helps to know that I'm not alone. That's been very powerful.

Amazing.

That's cool.

I think it's—

it can be cathartic. I think it's really important just to make a distinction between— you have to be ready to share it because we don't want to be sharing our story on stage in a, like, like a therapy session and And you had to be ready and in a place where you could be sufficiently detached from it, I think, to share that in a way that, that landed with people. Is that fair to say?

Absolutely. Thank you for making that distinction. Yes, I had to be at a place in my journey where I felt still a little nervous to share, because I think that's natural, but at a place where it wasn't going to affect me to my core if people didn't resonate with it, or if people you know, made, made comments about it. I think that's been a big part of being on social media as well, is, is sort of standing in the face of non-agreement, right? Being able to say what we want to say without it impacting us. And also not— it's that appropriate vulnerability, right? It's not oversharing for a purpose of getting, you know, accolades or getting sympathy or anything like that. I think if we're doing that, it sort of shows us that we're not yet at that place. But Absolutely. I did have to be at a certain level of, um, of readiness to share.

Absolutely. And I think that's really important. Everything, my belief, everything you do as a speaker, not you, but one is in service of the audience and the message that you're sharing. So that's, that's really, um, that's really great that you made that point. Okay. Have you ever had a speaking gig that you did and your critic kicked in and went, oh my goodness, I just wanna put that to the back of my mind and never think about it again. Has that ever happened to you, Heather?

Such a fun question. So when I first started my career as a nutritionist, I was working at a wellness clinic and it wasn't a super busy clinic. So we thought, okay, let's do a talk for the community and people can come into the clinic and we'll, and, you know, and I'll share some, some info. And we were also going to stream that, like livestream it on social media. And so for this talk, and I had gone out and I had bought like all of these, we were talking about like fall foods. And so I had bought all of these foods that I had, like squash and kale and things on my desk. And no one showed up for the talk.

Oh, no.

No one showed up in person, but we were still streaming it on social media. And I'm not even sure that there was anyone attending online anyways. But I remember So I did the talk. I still did it. I showed up as if people were in the room, and the only people that were there were the receptionist and one of the naturopathic doctors. And I felt completely mortified that no one showed up for this talk. And even during the— we had sort of had some, like, preplanned questions. And so during the question period, they posed some questions to me. And I remember saying, like, yes, you in the back, to sort of see— make it sound like there were people there. And I was, I was just completely mortified. But it was an incredible lesson because I learned that I can still show up, that it's okay. I didn't die. Yeah, I was really uncomfortable. And yeah, I felt kind of crappy about it. But you know what? I still showed up.

I think that's brilliant. I could— I feel your pain. I once did an Edinburgh show, like a full 1-hour comedy show in one-person tech. Oof. Oof.

That's tough. I hope they laughed loud. Exactly.

Oh, thanks for sharing that. That's really, you know, but you learn from those things often a lot more, and, and it, and it can never be that scary again. And then once it happens, so that's great.

Okay.

What's the book that's had most impact on your life and why?

I think I would probably recommend the book that I mentioned earlier, The Miracle of Mindfulness by Thich Nhat Hanh. That was really the first book that started my journey into meditation and mindfulness. And it, and it taught me that you can be present in everyday things, that it doesn't have to be a formal sit-down guided meditation that will help you learn how to be present and find more peace, that it can just be sort of woven throughout the fabric of your day. I think that was a really big lesson.

That's brilliant. And we'll put a link in the show notes to that book. I haven't read it, so it sounds like it's right up my street. So I will check Check it out. Okay. What's the best bit of business advice you've had and why?

Do it imperfectly, but just do it. I think so many of us are waiting for that perfect time to act. I see this all the time with clients, like waiting for, you know, someone to invite them to the table, for someone to invite them to do something, or feeling like if I just do this, then I'll act. I see this all the time with people waiting to invest in themselves in coaching and thinking like, well, I'm just gonna wait until things calm down, or I'm gonna wait until something. And the reality is like, there is only now. Now is the only time that we are guaranteed. So if we're waiting, we're always gonna be waiting. So just do it imperfectly, but just show up.

I think that's really cool. That's it. That's important. And just think how much, if you start, you can be so much further ahead than if you wait. Okay, and last question. If you could have one mentor, and they can be alive or dead, fictional or non-fictional, who would you choose and why?

I think I would choose Taylor Swift, to be honest, and not because I'm a huge Swiftie. It's because how she shows up with grace, And with confidence, really inspiring. I remember recently, the Super Bowl was happening, and they panned to her and the entire stadium was booing her. Like, I— can you imagine having tens of thousands of people booing you and still just showing up and being like, okay, you know, doesn't, doesn't affect me. Like, that's, that's fine. I mean, that to me is true confidence, is not worrying what other people think and just showing up knowing that you have A gift and a purpose in the world and just showing up in that purpose, knowing that the people who are going to need to hear that message will find you and the people who it's going to resonate with are really going to grab on to you showing up like that.

I didn't see that. I'll have to have a look at that and see, see what went on.

Shocking. Interesting.

Well, look, Heather, I just want to say thank you so much for sharing your journey of transformation with us. And for sharing those brilliant tools and tips and techniques, um, that will help speakers, you know, be in the best place to share their message and transform the lives of other people as well. Where's the best place for people to go to find out more about Cultivating Calm, perhaps to book you to speak, um, or to work with you one-to-one? Where's the best place for them to go?

Sure. So I'll send people towards cultivatingcalm.ca. You can also look up Cultivating Calm in the App Store or on Google Play. And it's really intended to be a space where people can put things into practice. So having concrete tools, meditations, there's even meditations on there for right before you have a public speaking engagement. There's meditations that you can pop on and just bring some self-compassion to yourself and regulate. There's also courses on there, and there is a free version of the app that everyone can check out. On that free version, there's a 7-day course. It's called the Cultivating Calm Challenge. So if you want to experience what is it like when I really prioritize myself for 7 days and spend just 30 minutes a day putting these habits and these routines into place. And what we've seen is that people do see a difference, that they just with 7 days, they feel calmer, they feel more regulated, they feel like they can show up with more confidence. So if that resonates with folks, then they can check out Cultivating Calm. That's probably the best place to start to explore.

Smashing. And we'll also put a link to that in the show notes as well. Well, thanks again so much, Heather. Best of luck with everything that you're doing. And yeah, thanks for all the tips and tools and techniques and transformations.

Thank you so much.

Thank you.

Thank you for having me.

You're welcome.

There you go. I hope that you got some value from this episode. I know I discovered some new things which I hadn't heard before. I particularly liked the heart tool, uh, for something that you can use when you are in a situation and feeling those nerves and emotions and almost feeling paralyzed. It will intervene and stop you spiraling.

Love that tool.

And also some other things that I, I haven't come across. I'm going check out those nutrients as well. If you got a great thing that you're going to take away and use, then do let Heather know. Uh, she is on Instagram, you can find her there. And do check out her Cultivating Calm app. You can have a trial of it for free, see if it's something that works for you. And we've also got links to that Tiny Buddha article and the website where you can find out more about what Heather gets up Now, before I close out the episode today, I wanted to share about a workshop that I'm doing on next Tuesday, the 11th of March. It's a live workshop at 5 PM GMT, and we are going to be looking at how you get booked and paid to speak. I'm going to take you through some practical ways that you can position yourself and your talk, and also some some, you know, processes that you can implement to get yourself booked. I'll be sharing how I have done it for some big gigs this year. And if you wanna join us, then head over to saraharcher.co.uk/mmw for Message Monetization Workshop. There aren't gonna be any replays. This is a live workshop, hands-on. We'll be actually working on your stuff in the session. So turn up and get stuck in, or we'll be doing it at some point again in the future. But if this matters to you right now, come and join us next week. Well, that's all that I've got to share with you today. So if you are a regular listener to the show but you've not yet subscribed, then do that. And if you haven't left a rating or review, I'd be so chuffed and grateful if you would take a couple of minutes to do that over at ratethispodcast.com/tsc. And if you're watching on our YouTube channel, then I— and you haven't subscribed, then please do. And also, I'm happy to hear some comments below, things you like, you don't like, things you might want me to cover. Love to read some of those, and it's great to have you watching. Well, that's it from me. Thanks so much for choosing to watch or listen to the show. Really appreciate it. And until next time, you know what I'm gonna say. Go out, grab your life by the nuts, and get cracking. Bye-bye. It's a nightmare. You're an expert with so much to say, but now that you've been booked to speak, you're struggling to know exactly what to talk You want a talk that engages the audience and wins you new clients without you losing your personality or anyone feeling pitched to. But what happens when you sit down to create that talk is that you end up staring at a blank page for ages, or worse, surrounded by hundreds of sticky notes with content that you could include. With so much material, you just don't know where to start. Or finish. Don't worry, because many experts like you face exactly the same challenge, and that's why I created the Blank Page to Stage Guide. In just 50 minutes, this breakthrough resource is going to help you identify the big idea of your message, make it relatable for the audience that you're speaking to, and convey it all in a way that gets the audience inspired and on board with your idea. And it works even if you have tons of material or your subject feels less than exciting. If you want to cut through swathes of content and get a talk that you're excited to share, your audience loves, and wins you new clients, then grab your Blank Page to Stage guide from saraharcher.co.uk/newguide-tss. Oh, I forgot to say, it's completely free. Enjoy!