The Founder’s Mindset Every Speaker Needs with Carlo Mahfouz - 330

If you're a founder, a leader, or a speaker that's trying to build something that matters, what if the thing that you've been trying to eliminate, uncertainty, could actually be the source of your power? Today I am joined by Carlo Maffuz. He is the author of Reality Check and also the creator of what he calls The Founder's Truth Trilogy. Now, Carlo believes that founders are defined by 3 things: ambiguity, absurdity, and aliveness. Sounds good, doesn't it? And we are talking in this episode about how clarity comes from ambiguity, not the other way round. We also talk about why collaboration dies the moment that everyone agrees and what it really means to be so present. That you disappear. Now, Carlo is also a speaker. We've worked together. He, so he, we get into the speaking side as well, and he's sharing the mistake that he made when he first started out, when he was trying to be the speaker instead of just being himself. So, we get into that. This one is philosophical, it's practical, and I think it's going to open your eyes some things that you hadn't considered before. So, without further ado, let's dive in. Welcome to The Speaking Club, Khaled Mahfouz.

Thank you, Sarah. I'm so happy to be here. Excited to be with you today.

Yeah, I'm excited to have you here too. We've been talking about the content of your book for quite a long time, and I'm really excited to bring the concepts to people in my audience because I think they're going to be valuable for people who have, you know, who are founders of entrepreneurial businesses, tech businesses all over the place. So, let's get cracking. First question I want to ask you, what was the trigger in your own life for writing your first book, Reality Check?

Yes, the trigger. Oh my God, it was a bunch of things that kind of just crashed down all at once. And that's in 2020 on the heels of COVID you know, sitting at home, me and my partner, kind of a bit suffocating in a tiny place to work. At the same time, a major explosion happened in Lebanon, my home country. I live in the States. And kind of all of those things got me to a point to question like, what the heck are we doing wrong? Like why we are not addressing the right things, even though knowing all my technical background and everything that we've accomplished so far, there is so much that we can do, whether in healthcare, whether in education, whether even in honestly communication, which is almost the political scene and everything else. Like, Why are we still almost so behind as if we haven't evolved that much? So the technology is evolving and we're not. And that created the birth of Reality Check. It was that kind of moment and it got me to realize, okay, is there a time where we actually see things clearly? Is there something that actually allows us to see through all of this uncertainty and allows us to basically navigate this world better or even recognize what truly matters. So that was the birthplace, honestly, for even the search and kind of the, kind of the curiosity inside for me to dig deeper into it. Um, and on the heels of that, um, Reality Check was born almost 3 years after.

Yeah, they do, they do say that that period created like an awakening across, you know, across a lot, uh, of people. And it feels like that, that deep, you had the space to have that deep thinking. That launched this idea, this concept, this book. So, the interesting thing I think about Reality Check is that when you wrote it, you weren't explicitly writing it for founders at that point.

Yes.

What made you realize that founders were actually the people living your ideas most intensely?

Yes, a great question. So the book was Reality Check: In Pursuit of the Right Questions. Uh, and in it there was this pursuit and like trying to figure out like, what are the right questions? Can we do have like, what is, can we actually even recognize them if we see them or how we can be in a space that allows us to see them? You know, after 3 years since the book launch almost, I mean, it was a journey for me as well. As I said, it was like a deep discovery journey for me and writing the book itself. So the book was a revelation in myself as well and how I see the world and see the right questions, if I may put it in that way. And part of it has been, okay, who are the people who already today see glimpses of that, that they're already on that journey but want to deepen it? And I couldn't think of, and I didn't realize that at first, but a lot of the people I interviewed in the book are founders themselves. Like, and I've only come to realize kind of that dimension in them because it requires a certain level of almost faith, if I want to put it in those terms, to kind of bridge this gap that I was trying to cover in the book. Because if we come at it only from the analytical sense, People kind of get lost. And what I mean by that, if we're trying to go about it tactically and the focus is the right questions, like, okay, how do I structure a question? How do I build it? And that's actually not what I was getting at. More so actually in having almost a spiritual journey along the intellectual journey, kind of married both of those to actually be in that space where those right questions surface. It's almost like there is a magic or a gap that's happening in it. And I find the people who actually already today manifest that are founders who are crazy about ideas or like visions that no one sees and they still are going after it. They see a problem so clearly even before everyone else sees it.

Yeah.

Or they are the kind of the rebels in our society that They are going against a huge uncertainty, both financial and personal. Like, I cannot imagine the level of overwhelm and stress the founder goes through, which makes them the perfect candidates to say, they are the people who already are, if not fully on that journey, they're already close to it and they're already seeing some of that. So they already know almost what I'm talking about and that gives them like a kind of a headway into the conversation.

Yeah, absolutely. So, I'm gonna just go back a little bit, 'cause I think what people might be wondering is, so that it, the idea you had birthed the book, and the book was almost you going on that journey yourself. It was a catalyst for your own relationship with ambiguity. And how did that transform the way that you work, live, see the world?

Wow. Great question. Big question. Um, in, in, uh, in a matter of speak, uh, I think I became a completely different person. So, uh, and, and to understand that, you need to a little bit know about my background. So, I'm an engineer by trade with all the stereotypes of an engineer that you can throw on. So speaking now and in this podcast or speaking anywhere was not part of the skill set or even like any of the ambition for the most part. Being comfortable with a lot of the vulnerabilities and what requires honestly to be an author or anything else in a public space, I think I was none of those two. Even honestly, to a certain extent, being comfortable with everything that I am, which is just not an engineer only, but a creative, a writer, an artist, because I draw as well, and all of those dimensions and bringing them all together to the dialogue almost in everything that I do is not necessarily something that I would say I was comfortable doing or even even that I thought was even possible. Like the possibility space was not even there. I mean, for God's sake, I started to do, I'm gonna do speaking, you know, you and I connected. I started imagining way more things that I thought possible for me in the space that I lived in from a person, you know, sitting and coding all day long. which I don't do that anymore almost at all. Um, but that's a huge transformation in my life. And as well, that impacted, you know, my relationships, uh, how I see, you know, my partners. I tell my partner, you wouldn't have liked who I was before because you wouldn't recognize that person, to be honest. Has nothing to do whether I was, it was a good, I don't even recognize that person anymore. It's like such a fascinating transformation that, because I tell a lot of vulnerable stories in the book about, you know, that journey and how I came to be, and we can talk about some of these things. And then part of it is like, I don't know that person anymore. Like, I know them because I used to be them, but I'm a completely different person today, which doesn't carry the baggage of that story even. And I think that's such a liberating thing in everything I do today. I, you know, advise C-suite and founders on, you know, on trajectory, where to go and how to see the real problems and challenges that are happening, which honestly, a lot of the time people attribute to technology and most of the time are like people, like the culture of the teams, the people, what's happening. So that's all happened and honestly, in a very short period of time, which I think is really surprising to people that that's possible, but it is a short period, like 2 years or 3 years and such a transformation. and you, who you are, and people understanding even who you are, because I think especially for people who knew you from before, it becomes such a bridge for them. So you get to meet new people, new friends. I don't know. All I can say is like every moment carries so much potential in it that it's really hard to see when you are so enveloped in the story of who you are, a lot of actually, you know, a lot of the principles that I played out in the book, which once you start shedding them one after the other, you get almost this liberated feeling that you can do the impossible and you end up doing the impossible in some ways. I mean, I did even sing opera to a certain extent, which really is none of my business. But honestly, that was another thing which created that, you know, was a catalyst in that journey. You start exploring dimensions of your being that you don't even know possible. And with that comes different opportunities, like me being on this podcast today, which is super exciting.

Exactly. I love this. It feels like, as I often use the metaphor or analogy, whichever fits, that, you know, when Michelangelo used to create a statue, He started off with a, a block of concrete, and in a sense, it's what he chipped away that created the beautiful statue within the block of concrete. And it feels to me like this was a process of you actually letting go, stripping away of some things. That, you know, you talked about your story and if you want to go into that in terms of the things that you did let go of, um, but to create the, you know, the, the Carlo that we see today, who is very much, it feels like you've chosen who you want to be and to become rather than being a product of You know, certain things that were inevitable in terms of identity and background and stuff. Is that, is that fair? Is that, does that resonate with you?

It does. Um, I don't know, you know, I feel it always comes down to me is when I look back and a lot of us, you look at it retrospectively, you know, when you're going through the journey, it's not the same when you read it afterwards.

Yeah.

I don't know if I chose more so that I just became who I always was. Undefined by, you know, all the, like, we are always influenced by so many parameters all the time. And that influence never stops. I don't believe that it does stop. But what ends up happening is you recognize the influences and somehow you just kind of find your core. So it's like you're chipping away from the block. I love that, you know, almost Like, I love that image is you're chipping off at the same time, the core was always there.

Yeah.

Like, it's not that it's a Carlo that wasn't there. It was probably a Carlo that I didn't have access to almost in a matter of speak that I couldn't reach. And I find that fascinating in reality check and what I was trying to explore is everyone has that founder or I'm putting it as a founder today just because I think people can understand that, you know, crazy person who's risking almost all to get that. There's a certain level of vulnerability that's required in that endeavor. And that's almost the exact same path you're going to just actually be almost in touch with yourself up to the point where you start removing a lot of the associations that has built that self. Which are by themselves prisons, associations of career, associations of any label, you know, because all of those, the more you're associated with them, the more you are imprisoned by them. Whether it's the term of an engineer, a father, a dad, a husband, whatever, you know, whatever society or whatever we have created in this world.

Mm-hmm.

So those become like super entrenched. And in some way, what we're trying to do, especially with Reality Check, is like kind of to shake them a little bit, like to create that level of ambiguity, to create that level of blurriness between them. Not that they will disappear. Like, you know, I still recognize myself in a lot of those labels because it's easier for— and I'm adding a new one, which is founder in this case, like, right, for people to easily recognize it, but created more that gap where there's a little bit of blurriness, there's a little bit of ambiguity between them because in that space, there's the opportunity because if it's too rigid, then it kind of imprisons you. But if there is a little bit of a wiggle room almost, you can always escape. And I think that escape is fascinating.

That's really interesting. That sort of, you know, that the concepts of structures and almost like artistic expression and how those two things, because you need structure and in some case structure can give you access to artistic expression, but not if it's so rigid like you said that it cuts off that flow. And I think we're going to touch on that word in a little bit. So, let me, we've mentioned the word founder a few times and you've defined it so far as someone who is starting something new, maybe putting everything on the line, the crazy ones. Give me, is there any other definition you want to, do you want to broaden that out a little bit or is there a specific definition that you've come up with? for a founder, or is, is indeed putting a constraint on that, limiting what that is?

You know, because, you know, uh, Reality Check is gonna, and we're probably, we're gonna bring that in as it's gonna be part of this, the Founder's Truth trilogy, like 3 books which are coming down the line, which we can jump into later. And, and for me, there is 3 things which define them and in some way define founders as well, which is ambiguity, absurdity, and aliveness. And I think those are the definitions. And actually each one of them has a lot of breathing room almost in it intentionally. And I say that because I look at founders are the one who almost are wrestling with ambiguity all the time. There is no time where like things are clear. Anyone, if they've been a founder before or like they're on that path, they know like uncertainty is always there, like uncertainty to get the next client, uncertainty to figure the product, uncertainty to like kind of get capital uncertainty for, you know, paying the bills on time, like that never disappears. It's not one day it's there and one day it's not, it's always there. And how do you actually move it? And that level of ambiguity, most people see it as a deficiency or see it as a problem, but very rarely people see the power in it as well, the freedom, the flexibility, what it creates. And that's what Reality Check explores. And then if we talk about absurdity, I think this is a notion very rarely We've veered into the scientific dimension, into looking for data points and everything else to almost justify everything. But in reality, like founders almost are absurd sometimes, super absurd in what they bring to the table that it almost feels impossible. But the possibility lives in that absurdity. If that didn't exist, then it doesn't, you know, then that's then they are replicating already what is already there. Then they're redoing just what has been done and overdone, and there is nothing new in it. There's no innovation almost. And the last one I feel is probably the hardest, and we're gonna tackle that in the third book, which is coming almost 2 years from now, but I'll bring it here to surface is that like aliveness is like being so present in the moment that you just feel All of you are almost tingling in what is present for you in that moment. And you see that in them because the level of passion, the level of almost dedication, the level of commitment is off the charts. It almost feels, if we track it back, absurd and almost ambiguous and how they are actually able to achieve that aliveness. And that brings us full circle. So my founder that I'm looking at, today, and I'm looking to empower and like give them is those who embody those traits, who kind of live within, if you want, the bounds of those constraints, which by themselves are not real true constraints, yet have a lot of wiggle room in them.

Yeah, I love that. And what brought to my mind in the word absurdity and your example of it was, you know, it's probably a well-known story about Henry Ford. Saying to his team, I want an engine that does X. I can't remember the specifics. And they're like, this is crazy. Like, no, we can't do it. And he goes, well, just go away and do it. And then, and it went on for like years where they kept coming back and saying it couldn't be done. And he kept saying, just keep going till you do it. And, and that craziness and that absurdity, you know, created. The engine that, you know, so it's, I really love that. And then the aliveness, I think that's, that energy really comes through and I can see it when I work with people who have that vision and that just drive to see something through and sometimes at incredible cost. And I think like that goes cycles back to your first point because when you create something, it does cost. And it's, you know, it's what price are you willing to pay that price? That's really interesting. Okay, cool. So, the next question I've got for you is, you know, we've talked about, well, you talk about a concept or a thing around founder against themselves.

Hmm.

What are the inner dynamics that you see or believe that tend to sabotage founders most?

Yes. So, and that's the premise of Reality Check is really taking you through that journey. And I categorize them in 3 buckets. So, you know, you can, so it starts with context, which is all the things that, you know, influence you from your environment, the things that are happening. Usually it's really like shaping the context around you. And I'll dig into that, like, The environmental elements almost. And then there is time, which is really, you know, the past, the present, the future, how each one of them creates its own like prison to kind of play with you almost in a way. And the last one is really interesting, is really the observer. And then the reason I call it observer, because it's really us almost sitting in a different seat than we use and observe ourselves.

Yeah.

And by doing so, starting to recognize, recognize, not necessarily try to fix or solve, just recognize a lot of the impulses, the biases, the thoughts, almost a lot of the things that almost are happening on their own, which are shaping who we are and somewhat we become hostage of them. So there is this relationship of us being hostage to is really what I'm trying to get founders to, you know, kind of chip away if you want to use that same visual and like how it works out. Because if we start with context, usually how that appears is things that are happening around you. Something happened, usually the emergent things, actually the ones which have a lot of urgency usually actually pull you towards yourself much faster than others. So like the explosion, for example, for me, the first thing I thought is like my family, the people I check in. The real question which I should be asking almost is the people that I care about the most are doing well and okay almost, which is sometimes You know, life takes you away and you get distracted. But the thing is about that, so the circumstances are such a huge influence and we cannot, and I think a lot of people think that, oh, you know, I can ignore them and I want to build resilience to ignore them. I think that's such BS.

Yeah.

Like it's telling someone you have so much control that you are not going to be influenced by anything. And I think that's almost Absurd. I want to use that. And the reason I think that is you are going to be influenced. You know, you don't almost have a choice in the matter. Actually trying to fight it is actually allowing it to, allowing it to control you even more, but just simply recognizing it, exposing it, uh, allows you actually to liberate yourself from it much, much faster than trying to say like, no, I don't want to be influenced by something. Like I'm sitting now in this room and this room is influencing me just by the lighting, by the noises around me, whether I like it or not, I can ignore it or not, but it's going to influence me. And recognizing that automatically, there's something weird with the brain which happens in that specifically. It kind of liberates you from its influence almost, that it's still present but doesn't almost shape you. And I think that's extremely powerful. And the same applies once we move to time. You know, time is really probably one of the more visceral ones for people because, you know, time is represented in, you know, our identity, you know, where you're born from, your history, your story, the narrative that comes with that story, whatever that may be. Society has a lot of these things which bear down heavy on people. You know, I mean, I come from, you know, Lebanon, so, you know, Lebanese. Man, you know, already religion association, you know, we make so many of those associations. And I think those weigh us down too. It allows, it creates, you know, it makes us feel as if that we are living within those, you know, bounds, which are a lot of the time cultural. They are at work as well. So you come in, your title, how do you move through the echelon of like performance and all of those things? And the future is no different. Like, the past is easier to see, but sometimes the more we rely on these expectations and those we don't meet those expectations. And the expectations is really, I find it fascinating because the brain is just a prediction machine, no different than AI these days. So the brain is trying to predict all the time to create that sense of safety. Like, so it's trying to predict things, but it's most of the time not true. Like, it creates a prediction and has no clue if that's right. Like, it's assuming based on all of these things. So when we start trusting those predictions, then what's happening really, we miss the most. And there I have like a beautiful story from Ola Helland in that chapter, which I'll bring forward here because I think it represents that so well, you know, that he noticed at one point that his dad was getting sicker and sicker. And he's starting to forget, you know, one of the games that he watched on the TV so well.

Like, right.

And what is interesting there is he can start seeing the degradation and memory loss and recognizing who he is and everything else. But what, what was most fascinating is you can sit and then, you know, be hostage of the expectation to be better and like, you know, looking for a better solution or maximizing what you can do in that moment. And he draws that parallel with him and his mom, not that his experience was better, But it was not too bad either. Like, right? It changed the dynamic of how he saw his dad, what he could accomplish. And he is, you know, you can read the story that he has done amazing things to, you know, celebrate his birthday even internationally. And it's a really interesting way of seeing, like, you know, kind of appreciating the now and all of it is and understanding the reality of it, which is sometimes is very harsh.

Yeah.

And that's why our brains is always running away from it because it is harsh.

Yeah.

Anyway, so I think that that's one dimension. And the third one is actually the most difficult. The third one is once we start talking about the observer and shutting down one, I think it's very, very hard. The reason is because it starts touching too close to like the identities, you know, your name, almost the biases that comes with all of the things in your family. your thoughts, your relationship to your thoughts, how connected to your thoughts. And as well, thoughts are interesting in this concept too, because they come and go wherever they like, and we think we have so much agency on them, so we trust them too much. But the reality is you actually don't have too much control, and it's like no different than future expectations. It just is probably more, the more we try to associate with them and like say like, okay, I am my thoughts almost, or I have control over my thoughts. It's actually, it's like almost averting reality. Like it's almost as with the denial of reality that I actually don't. And there is this freedom when you say I don't, like they come and go whenever they like almost. I sometimes, you know, I sometimes see them, sometimes I don't, sometimes I speak them, sometimes I'm like, interesting. And that comes with that. Just saying now that most people are probably like already scared, like, oh my God, like, you know, what's going to happen? But nothing is going to happen. You just, that uncertainty you live with, it doesn't actually destroy you. It actually gives you more of that space and freedom. And I went along, but I think that all of its entirety captured it almost.

Yeah, absolutely. And there's a few things. I'm going to start with the last one because I think this comes back to you being the observer. Like you, you, If you accept that your thoughts are, you know, we have like, they just happen so often, but you can begin to observe those thoughts. And I think in observing, it gives you more, you know, if you can observe them, you can understand them a little bit better and then, you know, manage them. So, I think that's one thing. I think one of the things that you said, was around accepting situations. And there's a, I can't remember, I think it was NLP when I trained in NLP. There was a thing which is whatever you resist persists. And that idea is if you are constantly shoulding, fighting against reality and not accepting it, you lose your power in that situation. So, I think that's a really important point. And then it's so funny, I was writing a new play and one of the things that I was toying with was this idea that I think quite a bit of suffering comes from expectations because I think you are absolutely right. Like we need to plan and we need to hope and we, but expectation, Is always gonna lead or can often lead to disappointment. So, I think those are really important things. I think it's a nice segue into my next question, which is around this, you know, really getting comfortable with ambiguity, you know, this, you know, building on that sort of resistance. When a founder is able to sit with ambiguity, Um, what do they get and what do they lose when they avoid it, in your opinion?

I truly believe what they get is like a, a, it is paradoxical in nature. I don't know what I'm going to say this, but I'm going to say it anyways, is they get a lot of clarity. It sounds like almost like bonkers in what it creates, uh, because it is almost that because it has this tension, paradoxical tension that it creates. But the more you sit with ambiguity, the more clarity you have. Because the truth is, you know, reality is, the reality you're facing is always super complex with so many things. Not recognizing that that's part of the deal is one, probably one of the biggest disadvantages that you have.

Hmm.

Like, right? Our minds, our almost perception is always, it's a reductionist mechanism. It's always trying to reduce something to an understandable format. So it can actually absorb it. And in that process, it's ignoring so many things, right? So focus at the end of the day is almost— I like to put it in that way— is like, at the end of the day, focus comes with a lot of ambiguity. One way to think about it is the more ambiguity you have, the more focus you have, right? Because focus is tunneling here, which means you're ignoring everything else. So everything around you is actually completely ambiguous. We tend to look at it in the inverse. We look at it like, oh, okay. I mean, I'm super clear here. Like, but to be super clear, you need to ignore almost everything else. So the space of ambiguity around you is huge.

Yeah.

Like a way to visualize this is like, find, think about yourself going into a fog almost like, right? And in that fog, there is one light which is shining. Right? Almost. So in that fog, following that light is actually not, I mean, you can at least guess where you're going towards that light. But imagine now that there is many lights and there is no fog, like, right? Where do you go? Like almost like literally so many light around you. Everything is super lit, like, right? Everything is extremely lit. Where do you go? You actually don't know where to go almost. And if you look at it, if everything is super clear, which everyone is trying to, you know, get, I think that's the, you know, the weird part is if everything is extremely clear, nothing is clear. Like if you go into a space where everything is extremely lit, how do you differentiate? Like everything is super visible. How do you differentiate where you need to put your focus? Yeah.

Yeah.

While if some of it is actually obscured and there's only almost one place, which is that, it's very easy to focus there.

Yeah.

And we rarely look at it from that sense where ambiguity is a crucial component of focus or like being, you know, of clarity. It's a crucial component of it. It's not like a, it's on the side thing. Um, so, so I think that's, that's the power of it. There is as well, even when I explain it, there is always people like, you know, but you know, it feels like off. Like it feels like something is missing when I say that. And this is where I say there is always like a certain level of faith in this conversation that needs to come into play because your brain is fighting against you almost. Like your brain is gonna say like, no, no, no, no, no, this doesn't work because the brain likes certainty. Like it feels safety in certainty. It feels safety in like, So the notion of 2 things which are almost opposite each other existing feels like very shaky grounds. Like it doesn't feel like it kind of can hold the stick into it and like, and kind of, you know, but that's not going to go away. Like that's, that's okay. That's not a problem, uh, in a way. It's just mostly like recognizing that that's going to exist in tangent and you still have that level of clarity. Um, so what do they lose? I think this is interesting. What do they lose? Honestly, they lose a lot of bad stuff. They lose being overwhelmed. They lose, uh, uh, you know, feeling the need to be absolute in everything. And I, and I think that's more powerful than people expect. When we look at perfection or we look at almost like things to be exactly precise, exactly perfect, 100%, or having one answer for that matter. Which really where I set all of this is like always looking for that only one answer that will make it. You actually don't realize to a certain extent, you know, you're gonna have to lose that. And we, it's very hard to lose that because we have been almost trained, uh, for years and years to basically, you know, even from education. get one answer right, like get this performance, like get this, you move on. Like, so that loss is gonna be more severe and hurting. Like you're gonna suffer from that a little bit because it's gonna go against almost every particle in your being to defy it. Because we are so kind of almost institutionalized or like kind of we've been put in that pattern for so long. that now actually losing it will feel like something like will go away from us. And I mean, I would say early founders usually don't have that because they haven't got like, actually, if you see, they usually drop school, like they actually always are going across the, you know, against the grain.

Yeah.

Because they are almost defying this like kind of perfection, this defying this like one answer for everything. They're defying it already. Whether they recognize it or not, they're already defying it. And that's why it's kind of working. That's why they become founders in the first place. And if someone is not in that boat, then it's very hard for them.

So let me just check that. I just want to check that I've understood this and I'll reflect it back. So I feel like this is almost in some ways like scientists, because scientists will have a question that they want to answer, but they are then evaluating, like the question is the thing, and they're sitting with the question and testing, you know, different things to find the answer to that question. So, are you suggesting in this that The path that we should be spending more time sitting with the question in that ambiguity where we have every option available to us rather than going straight to what we believe is the answer. Like we are, and I guess that's, you know, In Pursuit of the Right Questions is in the book title.

Oh yeah.

Is it, is that the ambiguity? Sitting in the question until, and looking at everything rather than going straight for an answer. Is that what you're getting at or am I missing it?

No, that's correct. And I think it's really important. I'm glad you're clarifying it because the secret lies in the pursuit, not in the right questions.

Yeah, right.

Yes.

Right, right.

And it's tricky. It's like a slippery slope almost because you're always gonna be optimizing for finding the right question to find that one answer.

Yeah.

Right. Almost like we are designed to optimize against almost the opposite. But, and I think that's interesting you gave the scientist because I think that's a fascinating example of how we kind of even misunderstood what scientists do. Like scientists, like, right, don't give you just facts and truths. Like, that's the biggest misconception we have. They actually, they take hypotheses and challenge them. And then when they challenge them, the truth changes continuously. So, but what we end up doing in our society, and I think social media definitely didn't contribute positively there, it's like, oh, this scientist said this, then that's the absolute truth. No, the scientists know actually that this is actually the truth for now under these constraints, which everyone ignored. Like everyone ignored that this is only, it's a temporary truth. It's like a temporary fact. It's only a fact as long as these constraints that were observed or measured are true. As soon as those change, it no longer becomes the case. And scientists know that very well, that a scientist's job is always, you know, you have an observation, you have a hypothesis, you get to test the hypothesis, you change your, you know, and then you change. If anything, scientists are the people who change the most.

Yeah.

Yet we've put them in this bucket like, oh, You know, this is a fact and this doesn't change. And the truth is not that. So it's really interesting. It's on a, on a principle level, we already knew this. Like we already knew that the value sits in the pursuit, sits almost in the philosophical exploration more than anything, which is highly ambiguous.

Yeah.

Like, yet it still delivers. I say that like probably one of the best writing, if you want to really like get a feel of that, like read poetry.

Yeah.

Like when you read poetry, part of poetry is that you actually never, like everyone sees a different, you know, something different when they read it because that was the intention.

Yeah.

If it actually just precisely told you what you need to look at, then it's no longer poetry almost. And at the same time, it kind of became like less ambiguous. Like ambiguity actually gives you the space of possibility. You go look at the painting and like, again, I think art is really a great example because it demonstrates this so well. You know, you go, everyone perceives something different because that's the intention that everyone else, everyone perceives their own kind of reflection of it onto it. But the only way that could happen is if the painting gave you that space, if it was exactly drawn, like if it was architecture, like 100%, this goes with the corner. There's nothing else. There's nothing else to extrapolate. It's like that. It's a box.

Yeah.

I don't know what to look into. It's a freaking box. Like, right? So it's, and everyone, which means everyone, that everyone is going to come back with the same answer to it.

Yeah.

Right. But I mean, change the lighting, for example, and the shading and to a certain, and that box started changing. Like, right. Which means the box was never a box to start with. A box under this lighting and these, these patterns is a box. And that's why we all see it as such. And this is exactly when I say, you know, you sit with the question. It is realizing and recognizing that, and probably one more important thing is here, we talk about collaboration, like with teams and the team collaboration is really important, but what collaboration happens if you go in a meeting and you say, this is a box and everyone says it's a box. That's no longer collaboration. That's just validation.

Yeah.

Right. Collaboration happens in the space of interpretation, almost in the space that everyone can actually project on this and see different problems, see a different angle. Like, right. And that's where you start getting the best solutions in that collective power, not in your perceived notion of who, what you only see. So those, there is a practical application to this. That's the interesting part is this is not just, you know, lives in the theoretical world. It's actually in the practice because we talk about these, you know, collaboration and transparency and like whatever in teams. And that's what creates innovation. And why do they fail most of the time?

Yeah.

Because we talk about them, but we don't really understand what they mean.

Yes. Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Oh, I love that. So, so that's coming back to that observe, like I see this, you see that we have space for everyone to see something different. And then when we have all of those viewpoints, we can work to create something that, you know, is truly collaborative and potentially innovative as well.

Exactly.

Interesting. Now you are a living embodiment of something that you talk about a lot, which is paradox.

Yes.

You are, you know, background of an engineer, also a poet. Like there's loads of things that, you know, your passion for poetry is coming through in that last answer. So this is about holding 2 truths at once. What do you think is a real founder's— I mean, maybe we've covered it, but if there's anything else that you want to add in here, a real example of a paradox that a founder must learn to hold to succeed. Is it just the ambiguity? Is there other things that they need to be able to hold at the same time?

I mean, probably repeating here a little bit, but I do believe they shouldn't lose ambiguity. They shouldn't lose the absurdity and they shouldn't lose the aliveness. All of those 3. Because if they lose one of them, you know, once I think that's where they stop innovating, if they lose a lot of on the ambiguity, because innovation lives in the spaces that you haven't explored yet almost, right? Absurdity as well. Like if it's not crazy enough almost to even feel it's impossible, is it really innovative? Is it really like a game changer? And aliveness, I think, is one of the most sensitive. If you're not true to almost the reality as it is, where it is now, to basically change it, if you cannot recognize that, and that requires a lot of almost— because I think reality is harsh, and a lot of the times it is hard, and we are afraid to recognize it as it is. We struggle with that. Big time. And I think, and I think again, that's why probably when it's represented in poetry and others, we resonate with it the most because it gives it that space. Because it's harsh and it's like a really, it's difficult and not in a bad or good way, just difficult. And that aliveness is, if you cannot, if you cannot keep that passion, if I want to put it, that fire, that energy, which almost feels like it's inextinguishable, like that it would never go away. Like that's how it feels sometimes that it's like almost so immense that it overshadows everything else. Then as well, founders lose their, um, and there is, I think on the path of, you know, building something new and creative, and I can talk about the book, it's an excruciating painful process, like right across the board. Because it starts with writing something Uh, like, which is basically like almost tearing apart yourself to bring out certain truth and in such a vulnerable manner. But that journey doesn't stop even when the book finishes. It continues with marketing and talking about it and sharing it with other people. So it's a really hard path. It's not that simple.

Yeah.

Um, and that requires almost unlimited energy to be able to carry through. And I think that's where aliveness is really true and, and, and like kind of holds that even further. Yeah.

And I think that's, that's something I see in people who do get traction is that light is still burning.

Yeah.

And it's, it feels like all of the things that you've been talking about are things which, if you allow them, will extinguish that fire, that light, that burning passion. And it's learning to To live and love the things that, you know, typically do extinguish that fire and you let that, those things fuel the fire, not extinguish it. That's, that's kind of what I feel that you're, you're saying.

Yeah, that's a very good way of putting it too, is like, there is no, I think this notion of good and bad, right and wrong is really detrimental. We've come to judge too soon or too quickly. those things. And in most cases, they don't help. And I say that, you know, I work in organizations and I like, actually, I don't care when you recognize, I don't care if it's good or bad. Like if we cannot say it as it is, actually, we cannot go, like we cannot fix it. We can, if you cannot recognize the bad as much as the good almost, then you are dismissing a big chunk of the space where the solution could be.

Yes.

Like, right. And that's really important. And I think where it hurts the more when it's against you, like where you know that this is not serving you. Because I experienced that a lot of the times as well as, you know, I would say something or express something that I recognize, which actually is not self-serving at all. It's actually probably gonna put you in trouble almost, or like it's gonna give you negative outcome from that point of view of how your mind is expecting it, right? And that's okay. But what usually is, we go and defend it. We fight against it. We don't want to acknowledge it. We deny it for whatever reason. We ignore it for insecurities, for like the plethora of things is like, you know, there's so many dimensions to it. And that is the real tension that it's not gonna, you know, I think this is where interesting is. It's not like today is gonna be like that and tomorrow you'll be fine. I think part of the paradoxical nature of all of this is That's a, this is a continuous thing all the time. The tension persists. And that's why it's holding both those truths is, is actually, it becomes easier, not by a function of that it doesn't stop happening. It becomes easier by the function that you are actually, you know, more accustomed to what that feels and what that creates in you and what thoughts come and go, what feelings go and come and go, what behaviors manifest and don't manifest. It comes easier in that sense. Not that it becomes easier, that it stops happening anyway. So I think that's really powerful.

Yeah. And I think when you are in that space, and again, this is something again that I've heard you talk about, and obviously other people have used the word, but when you are in that space and continuing to thrive and live in that space, Is that the flow that you are talking about when you use the word flow and you've used flow as a metaphor from skiing to performance to presence?

Yeah.

Is that the space that you are helping founders get to in Reality Check and the other books to follow so that they can achieve that in their business decisions?

Yes, absolutely. I, I think it really, it comes down to, to how we recognize it is that, is that this state of flow, which was almost continuous and endless almost. And in, in some way we're not working towards it in the sense that we are, you know, trying to be letting go and nonchalant and whatever, and like, you know, going with the flow and, and that's no, not, not that. But more so that actually that's what we end up observing, where what ends up happening, probably one of the best ways is you even forget you are there. And I say that on my website, and actually it will be part of the new edition of the book, is be so present that you disappear. It is to that extreme that you almost stop noticing even you in the conversation. If I want to put it in that way, and I feel that is represented as well in skiing and in other things like you're going on the stages. When you're there in that moment, you're almost so immersed in what's happening that you almost can no longer, you know, you and the skis become one, like almost you no longer find the barrier of where your body starts and stops, where your muscles, like where the energy is flowing. You just become kind of one with the freaking mountain, if I want to put it that way, one with the stage almost. You kind of, any barriers which used to exist start disappearing and you become like kind of almost translucent to them where you flow in and out of them so easily. That's kind of what I want founders or like be in almost all the time. And founders know that feeling. Probably the reason I'm talking to them is because they felt that or like they recognize that at some point. They've been there. If anything, they've been there and they have no clue how they got there. That's the interesting part. They, I mean, they've been there and like, oh, it was like almost a, like a once of a time thing. But what is interesting is this could be all the time. And the reality is it is all the time. We're just distracted from it too. The interesting part is that we're never out of flow.

Yeah.

It's just more so that We are sometimes carried away by a lot of distractions that it feels as if we are out of it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's, that's really true. That's really true. It is, you know, when I've, I know myself when I've been in flow, time just, you know, they say time disappears. It does. And you, you're like, you turn around and, you know, you finish speaking, like, and you're like, what happened? I can't really remember any of it. Because you were present. And yeah, it's really, really important. I think it's a great segue into, you mentioned the stage. And this is a really challenging, in some ways, challenging message and concept to get out into the world. You, you know, you started speaking about this stuff. Your intention is to to do more speaking in order to share this message with founders. And I think it's not just founders who are going to benefit, clearly. There's so many things that you've said today that people will recognize in their own lives, the avoidance of reality, that's retreating into things which can harm you if you try and avoid reality. There's so much here. But How have you found your journey in creating talks and, and, you know, messages around this? What are the challenges that you've found and overcome?

Yeah, so I think again, it's no less challenging than writing a book coming into speaking, to be honest. Um, and I think because a lot of it, as you go into the journey, and I think this is the way the pursuit becomes. You still, you're stuck in too many things that you think they are true and that's what's needed and they are not again. And it's, and as I said, a lot of these things don't just stop happening. Like, right. They're going to keep happening with every project you go. Everything is, you is, is the thing is the parameters become different, but at the same time, what's interesting is the principles still hold and like how you approach it. And I would think, you know, over, I started this trying to do the speaking shortly after, you know, I did the book. It's been probably now 2 to 3 years. And in between of that, I was traveling a lot and everything. And you start like big chunk, for example, is you focus too much on the solution. Again, you set your eye too much on what you think is the solution. So you wrote a book, you created this baby, and then you're like, oh, okay, this is what's gonna make everything. But you forget about the problem. You forget where people are. Like you even forget to talk about that almost or bring it. And I understand the appeal and I've been there and it's like, it's boring because you've been there and solved it. You're like, now, okay, like forget about that. But no one else knows the solution. So they don't even know what you're talking about. And I've been in, I fell into this trap so many times and I honestly still keep falling in that trap for the most part. It's like, you get super excited about like what you found out that you forget almost to tell people like, oh, this is where you are. And this is how I'm going to help you go through it to this new state. So no one almost like resonates at some point with your message because like, we don't know what the heck you're talking about, right? For the most part. So that has been definitely a challenge and you've helped me through it too, multiple times. Like, okay, what is the problem we're trying to solve to who? And then as well, who's the audience? It's really challenging because I think while yes, it applies to everyone and I do believe almost everything applies to everyone, the difference is whether it will find you today where you are, or will it find you tomorrow where you're gonna be? And I think that's really interesting. So, and that's been a really big challenge, especially, you know, once I wrote Reality Check and I did believe, you know, the audience is almost everyone. I still believe there is a founder almost. And the reason I characterize it as founder, because I find, as I said, it's someone you can relate to today that you might recognize some of these traits today. So the journey for you becomes easier to know where to start. And I think that's important in speaking because at the end of the day, you're communicating to an audience. That audience needs to resonate with you first before you give them any solutioning. Again, very hard to do because you really just want to jump into it. And I have been in so many talks where I did that and like people like were lost. I was like, how did that guy come here? Like, right? So actually like sometimes spending time in that and having, you know, as well as someone guide you through it is really helpful. So I think this is where this becomes really important in this journey and I think sometimes you cannot do it alone. Like honestly, in most cases, you should not be doing it alone either. I didn't do the book alone. You know, I had the author community around me and I went into a program. Even now I'm writing 2 other books and I'm working with someone as well. Like it always helps with the speaking. I've been working with you as well, Sarah, and it's been great. So it always helped to have someone because as much as we like, we think we are in control and we see things where they need to be. We don't. And that's part of reality as well. You know, so recognizing, you see, this is, this is an interesting application here. Like recognizing that level of ambiguity that you have, like, right, gives you the space to solve it differently.

Yeah.

Right. Rather than trying to, you know, I, you can do it probably on your own and I keep trying to hammer it, but probably will take you much longer. Like, right? And who has time? No one has time. Everyone wants everything yesterday, right? And so in some ways it's really interesting that we want these things as well. They are paradoxical in their nature and all that. So that has been, you know, my speaking journey and I still think it's a big challenge. I came to recognize like how big the leaps are. Like when we introduce something, how big the leaps are. Like 2, 3 years ago, I was, you know, I was coding or I mean, now it's been 8 years, but you know, 8 years ago I was coding every day and now like I'm talking about speaking, like the transition sometimes is really stark. So, you know, I'm not in the right circles. I don't know the right people. Like we forget about all of these things. Like, you know, we think it's just, okay, now I have a product and that product should just like happen. You don't have the channel to market that. It was the same with the book. You don't have the channels to market. I mean, I had, to be honest, I had my LinkedIn locked. Like literally in 2018, the reason I realized I had my LinkedIn locked, which means that no one could follow me, is I had a friend at Georgetown, it was like my alma mater where I was doing my executive MBA. And he's like, you know, let me find you. And he looked and he's like, I cannot find you. And I realized my LinkedIn was completely locked, so no one could find me. So imagine that, like literally even the space for you to be publicly present, you were not even accessible. So like, that's a huge leap in the spectrum of things, which we almost a lot of the times miss. And I think the same applies here in speaking too, but I'm excited to what comes through. I think, you know, even telling the story over and over again, telling it to different types of audiences over and over again, like allows you to see the sparkle in the eyes, allows you to see these kinds of things, which we as well kind of need too. They are like these small nuggets of validation or almost like they give you the safety and the space to actually give more. If I want to put it that, give you the space and like to give even more. And that's a very nice thing. I think that wound up being a long-winded answer, but—

No, no. And I think what you, your answer raised some really important points, I think, which can offer a lot of value to people who are on their own journey with speaking or whatever it happens to be, but in this particular case with speaking is that I think one of the things, so first of all, there is an absolute, you know, shedload of difference between someone reading a book and having the time to sit with those ideas in the book and put the book down and come back to it. And then someone who is listening to a talk that you need to get that message across. In, you know, in a heartbeat, you know, not heartbeat, but in comparison to the book, you know, in a very short space of time. And then also like, you know, the reader that picks up the book is already interested in the book. Whereas again, in your audience, you have to make it super relatable to them where they are.

Yeah.

This is a really good point that you made. You know, rather than, you know, they're probably not at the point that the reader is when they pick up your book. So, you've got to get them there as well. And I think the other thing to make a point about is that the more you speak about your idea, the more you iterate it, the better quality It, you know, it has, and the easier it is for you to be confident in the articulation of that. And I think you can absolutely write a book, but the journey from book to stage is a whole other ballgame that you need to go through. And I think you felt that in terms of getting that clarity on communicating it.

100%. And as well, and that mirrors to everything else, like creating a business out of the book, or like every one of those is a different almost trajectory. It requires different means. That does not mean that they're not interconnected, that they don't have, like, they can't create an ecosystem. They do, right?

Yeah.

But to figure each one of them, you cannot just like, you can jump if you want to, but it's much harder anyway. And there is a lot that goes into it, which is as well fun. Like, I would say it's really fun and exciting to go through those journeys because each one of them like brings a whole new dimension of your being that you didn't even know that was there in the first place.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, listen, thank you so much for sharing all of this stuff today. It's been, it's, you know, it's something that I'm really interested in, this whole, you know, all of the concepts that you shared. And I think they hold so much value for people in navigating the world today and business today, especially if you are a founder. Now I'm going to come back to where people can find out more about you speaking about the books and so on in a little bit, but I have some standard questions that I wanted to ask you that I ask all my guests, Carlo. The first question is this. What's the best thing that speaking has done for you?

It's giving me the freedom to be just who I am in a way. Uh, it's like, how do I wanna explain it? Every time I'm, I'm gonna sit on like a stage, whether it's virtual or not, Like, I feel so much joy. And to an extent that it's hard to explain, but there is already this, um, like you feel you're, you're becoming one with the audience or like, you know, what you're sharing is kind of melding and there is extreme happiness in that. So for me, speaking is such a vulnerable thing, but at the same time, such a, um, like it's an opening. It's an opening between you and others. And that opening is so rewarding. I don't know how the only other time I've experienced that was when I was singing, even without an audience, but like when I was doing opera things, because it creates, it's almost like remove everything that you are trying to hide behind and creates this open channel between you and others. And I think that's, I don't think I can put a price on that.

Brilliant. That's lovely. I think that's one of the best answers I've ever I've ever had. This is the most, you can feel it the most, if that makes sense. It's really, really tangible. Now let's have a look at the other side of the speaking. Has there been a time where things, you've done a gig either virtually or in person and you're like, oh my goodness, that was rubbish. I need to forget that and never speak about it again. Has that happened to you, Carlo?

Oh yeah, of course. I mean, I mean, it cannot not happen in any way because especially early on, you're going to fumble with some of the things or like, you know, I do remember one which I mean, I did and I was like, oh my God, I don't even know what I said. Like, and it's just, and it's interesting with those ones is you realize as well that in those moments, actually, it's where you were trying to be someone who you aren't. Honestly, in a way, it's like really, I was really trying too hard almost to be the speaker rather than too hard to just basically be, you know, be me and like show, you know, just speak about what I'm really passionate about. And that's so hard, like, right? And then you become guilty of that. You feel guilt around like, holy cow, like, why did I need to go there? But I think it's as well human nature. Like, we, We try to, I think we try sometimes too hard anyway. And anyway, we end up in that position.

Yeah, it's something I see so much. I call it presenter mode. People have this idea of what they need to be doing on stage. But one of the, you know, I talk about the 3 ingredients of stage alchemy, you know, which is what I call transforming an audience and creating opportunities. And personality is one of those big 3. And if you lose yourself, then you could be anyone else. And I think that's really important. So thank you for sharing that. Next question. What's the book that's had most influence on your life and why?

That's a tough one, Sarah. One book only?

You're like, there's many books through the fog. Many, many books.

There's a lot of books. Um, but I think, let me put it, um, I think probably the one which, the one which is in both practical terms and I think seamlessly like the approach of, which I think it's because it marries business and marketing, which I hate marketing just to be honest. I mean, I'm starting to love it, but I And, um, it was by Rory Sutherland and it's actually called The Alchemist or Alchemy, something around that.

Yes, it is. Yeah.

Yeah. So, and then the reason is because he really highlights the absurdity sometimes of the decision-making that we make in like solving problems, which could be solved in a different way. And I like that opening both because it comes from a marketing and psychology perspective rather than a technical perspective where my engineering mind would like go in an engineering mind way of fixing it. Uh, so I think that's an interesting book because it highlights that discrepancy, uh, in a lot of ways.

Um, absolutely.

I wouldn't say it changed my life in that, but I think it's quite relevant and, and, and how it, it showcases something which today we are struggling with significantly. We've kind of completely omitted this, uh, psychology or spiritual aspect or emotional aspect of a human being and, uh, and went too far onto the extreme and intellectual or logical or whatever that means, which I think is such a sad thing because we've reduced ourselves to just like the intellectual part where we are much more than that. Uh, and that feels like a missed opportunity almost.

Yeah, definitely. Definitely. And I, that is a good book. I'll put a link in the show notes to, to people to go and have a, have a look at that. Okay. Next question. What's the best bit of business advice you've had and why?

I think with business, one of the key things which I always feel like comes back to mind and it comes to sales almost and selling, um, I do believe is if you like almost, you don't need to put too much effort. in selling something that is already, uh, like it's almost as the client will seek you than, than you seeking them if you position right. So, so the positioning is almost more important than the product and everything else, uh, and, and, and that way. And I think that's really important, uh, and at the same time really hard, uh, to do because the positioning relies on so many factors, which usually we don't pay attention to. Like, are you in the right channels? Are you created the right you know, kind of perception of what that image and what that looks like. And honestly, there it's less about really the bullshit or the BS of the sales. It's less about this really aggressive promising as well. I hate promising. I think this promise game again goes against all, you know, every grain in my fiber because like it makes you feel, but in some ways, you know, sales does that, like gives you a promise that, you know, this is gonna be the truth. Um, but I like the approach of, you know, if you position right, uh, then business will come because, uh, you've kind of already are in the right place to meet the right client where they need you and you need them, uh, in a way. And that becomes almost self-explanatory, uh, if once you're there, but I think that's very hard to do.

Yeah, it is. It's possibly the hardest thing. in business is nailing that positioning so that your client target audience has clarity and you're meeting them in the pain where they are ready to take a decision. So that is hard to do that. And that's where the expert trap comes into play so much. Where we're viewing things from our perspective of having solved the problem, which you mentioned earlier, and just completely missing, you know, we have that expert mindset and we need to step into the beginner's mindset. And also we know what they need, but we need to speak to what they want and it's super hard, all of this stuff. So yeah, really, really good point. Okay. Last question. If you could have one mentor, Hmm. they can be alive or dead. Fictional or nonfictional, who would you choose and why?

I was asked the same question when I went to my, when I was applying to Georgetown and the answer is my grandpa on my mom's side.

Cool.

And the reason is I never connected with him too much, but I remember toward the end, I mean, he used to be a sheep herder just going in the mountains and like, you know, definitely nothing business whatsoever, if you wanna think of that lifestyle, more nomadic and jumping.

Yeah.

And I do remember, uh, like close towards the end of his life around, he passed away now, and that I sat with him and the stories that he could tell around, you know, moving through, uh, the mountains and living that type of life. Uh, and surprisingly, the clarity that he saw me in at a time where I didn't see myself clearly, and this is probably now It's been 10 years or more, uh, or probably more. It was really fascinating. And I, at the time, I didn't understand it, to be honest. So if it would be someone is, and now I understand better probably why, uh, it's because he lived that reality as it is more than anyone else that I could imagine, uh, and could see it with that level of clarity, even though He didn't really have the means or all of those things. Um, and I think that's what we miss a lot of the times is having someone with that perspective, uh, that can kind of shed light on things how they are rather than how we would like them to be.

Yeah.

Uh, and, and, and carry that story through, uh, across the board. Uh, so that's probably one person, uh, if I had the chance again to learn more from. which I unfortunately didn't. I wasn't in Lebanon. I had been traveling all the time. So I would visit like for whatever, 5 days and like see him for like half an hour. And that would be someone.

Cool. That's, that's lovely. I think that's the, you know, life, we, life is so complicated. We make it so complicated. But I think sometimes when we can tap into the simplicity of things and the wisdom in that, base that, you know, we only have one brain, like we have ourselves, but there's so much out there that he was potentially drawing from. That's so, that's really, really powerful. Well, Carly, thank you so much for sharing those things, your journey in speaking, the whole concepts that you've been sharing in the books. Where's the best place for people to go to find out more about having you as a speaker? Or finding the books or just more about some of the concepts?

Yeah, absolutely. Uh, the best place is thefounderstruth.com. Uh, that's where you're gonna find the first book, Reality Check, which is coming in March. Um, as well, the 2 other books, which you get to read and like learn about, which is coming out the year after, uh, which will, you know, cover, you know, Reality Check will cover, you know, the founder against themselves. Then we're gonna cover the founder against team, and then we're going to cover the founder against society. So thefounderstruth.com is the best place. And from there you can subscribe to the newsletter to stay updated, uh, you know, see about speaking and everything else.

Brilliant. Well, thanks again, Carlo. It's been an absolute pleasure.

It was truly lovely, Sarah. Thank you so much for having me. This has been a quite enriching and fun conversation. So I truly appreciate the questions.

Cool. So, what did you think of that? We covered a lot of ground, didn't we? What, what came up for you? Maybe you recognised yourself in the tension between clarity and ambiguity, or perhaps you've been trying to force certainty in your business or your positioning or your speaking. Or maybe if you're a speaker, you really felt that moment when Carlo was talking about being so present. That you disappear, because that is really about flow on stage. And here's what really struck me in this conversation. It was around innovation and the fact that innovation doesn't die because we lack intelligence. It dies because we stop being comfortable in uncertainty, with ambiguity. You know, there isn't anything really certain in life, and I think I think that came through really strongly in this conversation. So, if it's nudged you, this conversation, even slightly, to sit longer with the question instead of racing to find the answer, then let Carlo know. Or maybe it's helped you with that concept of aliveness on stage. I'm sure he would love to know. But yeah, then I think it's done its job, this show. So, if you'd like to explore Carlo's work, head over to thefounderstruth.com and check out Reality Check and the other books in the trilogy that are coming up. And if you are building something, a business or a message, a talk, remember the pursuit might matter more than the answer. So, all that's left for me to do is to say thanks so much for joining me here on the Speaking Club podcast. Never take your attention for granted. And if you do like the show, if you're a regular listener but you haven't yet subscribed, hit that subscribe button, hit follow on your podcast or wherever you're listening to it. And if you would like to leave a rating or review, then you can either do it where you're listening or watching, obviously on YouTube you can leave something, a comment, or you can go to ratethispodcast.com/podcast. TSC and do it there. Super easy. Until next time, you know what I'm going to say. Go out, grab your life by the nuts, and get cracking.

Bye-bye.

It's a nightmare. You're an expert with so much to say, but now that you've been booked to speak, you're struggling to know exactly what to talk about. You want a talk that engages the audience and wins you new clients without you losing your personality or anyone feeling pitched to. But what happens when you sit down to create that talk is that you end up staring at a blank page for ages, or worse, surrounded by hundreds of sticky notes with content that you could include. With so much material, you just don't know where to start or finish. Don't worry, because many experts like you face exactly the same challenge, and that's why I created the Blank Page to Stage Guide. In just 15 minutes, this breakthrough resource is going to help you identify the big idea of your message, make it relatable for the audience that you're speaking to, and convey it all in a way that gets the audience inspired and on board with your idea. And it works even if you have tons of material or your subject feels less than exciting. If you want to cut through swathes of content and get a talk that you're excited to share, your audience loves, and wins you new clients, then grab your Blank Page to Stage guide from saraharcher.co.uk/newguide-tsc. Oh, I forgot to say, it's completely free. Enjoy!