122 Busting Biofilms With Dr. Douglas Wine

Welcome to the Lyme Voice Network. We are chronic illness warriors, caretakers, and advocates who are overcoming illness in all of its many forms. We created this show to inspire, educate, and encourage you on your path to wellness. We're here to help you put the puzzle pieces of healing into place. Join us and our network of Lyme warriors as we discuss how fighting is a mindset, healing consists of choices, and living is the outcome.

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They also helped me with carditis after getting reinfected a couple of years ago.

I highly recommend them, and you can hear more about Invita in episode 80. All right, now on to the show.

Welcome, welcome, welcome to today's episode of Lyme Voice. This is LYME spelled L-Y-M-E, and we are talking about Lyme disease and other chronic illnesses on the WGLRO radio network. The People's Station. I am your host, Sarah Slickdy Sanchez, and chronic illness currently impacts 60% of American households, and medical bills are the number one cause of bankruptcy here in the United States. Even if you're not familiar with Lyme disease, it is the fastest growing vector-borne illness, and in my opinion, is the epidemic of the era. In my grandparents' generation, it was polio. In the '80s, it was the AIDS epidemic. And long after COVID has passed us by, Lyme disease will still be here. I have been talking about Lyme disease for about 6 years now through the podcast, but I am just fascinated by what Dr. Wine is doing as far as having multiple clinics, as far as having now an at, an at-home program that can be accessed. And then also what you guys are doing without antibiotics and you're doing it at an affordable price. So a lot of times for the most part, Lyme disease treatment is not covered by insurance. Much like AIDS in the '80s, people who were having to fight for care were doing it out of pocket. And so I'm just so excited to have Dr. Wine back to talk about why Lyme disease is in a sense so hard to treat when it's a bacterial infection, why Lyme can impact someone for 6 days, someone for 6 weeks, someone for 6 years, and another person for 16+ years. So he's going to be explaining to us really, and this is what he's been doing for 40+ years, is trying to figure this out. So, Dr. Wyant, thank you for being here again.

My pleasure. You had asked me to speak a little bit about biofilms, which I have discovered is really the key to Lyme disease, but there's very little knowledge about it, and most people have misconceptions about it. So I thought we'd clear that up today. So the Lyme spirochete is unique in that it can manufacture its own its own protection. And basically that's the key to Lyme disease. If you have something that can manufacture its own protection, it's got half of its— half of the problem solved. So its protection is called a mucopolysaccharide biofilm. So the Lyme spirochete, as soon as it enters the host for the first time, okay, it takes within 72 hours, it starts to manufacture this biofilm. It takes within 21 to 28 days to completely finish manufacturing the biofilm. From that point on, it has its protection. Now, most people think that this protection is something like a turtle or an armadillo where it actually covers the, the bacterium itself, and that's not the case. The Lyme biofilm is something— the best explanation that I've found over the years is it's very similar to a spider. So a spider will spin its web, and once it's done spinning its web, it leaves it. And it waits for a food source to run into it. It goes and has its food and it leaves it again. The Lyme spirochete does the same thing. It manufactures this biofilm and then it leaves it and it goes and looks for food. The Lyme spirochete is interested in one thing and one thing only, and that's food. So the biofilm acts as a type of a bunker, if you will, and once this bunker is formed, it leaves and goes and looks for food. Now, when it gets this Lyme spirochete, there are numerous things. When I say numerous things, the Lyme spirochete is actually just a normal bacteria. It's very easily eliminated. There's research to show this. Every antibiotic, pretty much every antibiotic, steroids, everything that the medical world makes a claim that can kill the Lyme spirochete, they are absolutely 100% valid. Antibiotic can kill the Lyme spirochete on contact. But on the other side of the world, all the natural products that everybody makes a claim that can kill the Lyme spirochete, they are true as well. We have research to show everything from stevia to herbs and plants to minerals down to apple cider vinegar can kill the Lyme spirochete on contact. So the, the point of this is Lyme diseases and Lyme bacteria is just a normal bacterium. So what makes it so difficult to get rid of? This biofilm that we're starting to talk about is called a mucopolysaccharide biofilm. Believe it or not, it's a sugar.

Let's go back one second. Let's go back to you get bit by a tick, a spider, a flea, an ant of some kind that is carrying Lyme disease or many one of its other co-infections that it has, and it enters your bloodstream. In one form. But what's interesting about a spirochete is it can take on many forms.

Yes.

So it goes and burrows into your fascia, your organs, glands, everything.

So it has two ways of hiding. First is it's called a spirochete because of its shape, so it can bore into bone. And it— and when it's bored into these tissues, it's protected. But don't forget this, the Lyme spirochete reproduces. Now it doesn't reproduce through eggs or larvae. It reproduces through what's called binary fission, which is simple cell division. So when it gets in there and it's a happy bacteria, it's eating, it's happy, it's all those things, reproduces very quickly. So within 72 hours you can have a cell division, another 72 hours, another cell division. So it's very rapidly, it can reproduce very rapidly. So when you have that many and that much, their objective is they still have to have food. So when they're bored into the tissues, they go into one of those states, which is their dormant state, okay? And when it's in there, it doesn't need food. It's not doing anything. So it can only stay in there so long. It's still gonna come out eventually. And before it even goes in, it's still looking for food. So if it finds a source of food, it's not gonna go into its dormant state and it's not gonna go hiding in the tissues. But what it does do is it manufactures this biofilm, which it can get in and out of in seconds. So it's a much more valid protection and it's an easier protection and a quicker protection for it to get in and out of.

Okay. Fascinating. So just like a spider leaves its web and goes and does its thing, the Lyme spirochete, that bacteria goes into its little cocoon shell biofilm hiding space and just reproduces.

It reproduces inside the biofilm. It also reproduces outside of the biofilm.

Okay, so the standard of care in general is antibiotics, IV antibiotics, massive antibiotics similar to chemo treatments. I've been through treatment twice and using antibiotics. I've done herbals and different stuff as well, but the thought process around the longevity of using antibiotics with this illness is that It's kind of one of the few options. There are people who are healing holistically and with alternative treatments, but right now it's pretty much the standard of care that you're on long-term, some type of long-term antibiotics because it works better than nothing.

Well, there's a lot of points to that. As I said just earlier, will antibiotics kill the bacterium? Absolutely. Will herbs and plants kill the bacterium? The exact same timeframe. We're talking within seconds. So Why would I use something that is detrimental to the body, enormously detrimental to the body? We can get into that hopefully on another podcast, but we can take herbs and plants and drink apple cider vinegar. They can kill the bacterium at the same exact rate. So why would I do something with side effects when I can do something that has no side effects? There's the first principle of what you want to do. And we have documentation I brought with me today. You can't see this on there, but I brought with me today stack stacks of documentation to prove my points. So what I'm telling you today is not Doug Wine and Dr. Wine theory. I have proof and documented research, and it's not documented research from, uh, fly-by-night organizations. We're talking Johns Hopkins, Harvard. It comes out of The Lancet, The Journal, New England Journal. So the point is this: the Lyme spirochete can very easily be eliminated. But let me finish. Once it has this protection, so When will antibiotics and these herbs and plants really work? When you first get introduced to the Lyme spirochete, within 72 hours it starts to manufacture its biofilm. Like I said earlier, within 21 to 28 days, the biofilm is completely made, completely manufactured. During that time frame, there's no protection. All of those things that we just talked about, antibiotics down to apple cider vinegar, every one of them will work in eliminating the bacterium if you get it in there during that 3-week period. Because their protection is not made. Now we can take the same exact things, and here's the trick, and here's the misconception with everybody else and everybody that talks about antibiotics and herbs. I'm not picking on either side, but let me tell you how this works. They will all say, and they're not lying to you when they tell you that antibiotics can kill the Lyme spirochete, and they're not lying when they tell you it can deteriorate the biofilm as well. But let me finish before— and don't cut that. Don't any of you ever cut this off there and say that I said that antibiotics work against Lyme disease. Let me finish. Herbs and the plants do the same exact thing. They can kill the Lyme spirochete on contact, and they can also deteriorate the biofilm. Here's the issue: the biofilm is made 72 hours, and then it takes between 21 to 28 days. The antibiotics that are known in steroids and all of the herbs and plants cannot deteriorate the biofilm faster than the Lyme spirochete can manufacture it. That, my friend, is the exact key to Lyme disease. So do they work? And do they— does everybody out there say yes? And they're not lying to you when they say antibiotics and herbs and plants will kill the Lyme bacteria. They're not lying to you when they say they can deteriorate the biofilms. They can do that, but they do it so slowly. So you need to understand the concept of what this biofilm is. The biofilm is called a mucopolysaccharide biofilm. It has other ingredients as well, but the number one ingredient is sugar. So people, everybody out there saying, oh, sugar. Well, come on. Sugar is not something that is that hard. You can mix it with water. You can dissolve it. You put it in your coffee or your tea and it's gone in seconds. Put some little water in there. It's gone in seconds. So how can sugar be that hard? Sugars are categorized by how many carbon molecules they have in them. So a basic sugar has 4 carbons, but as you add a carbon— now I've always, I always say this.

No, sugar is so fascinating. I love your analogy of this.

And I have to be careful because sugars, when they get added, we're talking about what they call hexose groups, and the biologists and the chemists out there are— I don't want them to cringe yet. 99% of the people that are watching this podcast right now are layman people, so I'm going to explain this in the layman terms. When you increase a carbon to a sugar, it becomes significantly harder. So a basic sugar, which is a 4-carbon sugar, is what everybody knows out there as what the sugars you find in fruits and vegetables. So we call that a soft sugar because if we would— if I had it here on my desk in front of me and I came back tomorrow, it would still be, it would still be juice. Okay, but if I took something like honey, which adds another carbon molecule to the existing sugar, it's significantly stickier and harder. And you have all had this experience. You put that in the cabinet, there's a little drip, you go to take it off, it's stuck. It takes a little bit of work or hot water or something warm. So the step from a from an original carbon sugar to another added carbon is significant in the stickiness and the hardness. When you add another carbon to it, you come up with white refined sugar. You can turn that into rock candy as hard as this desk. So every time you add a sugar molecule, it gets substantially harder. Now, we have just recent proof— we've had proof for a long time that the biofilms had yet another sugar and another carbon— excuse me— and then another carbon So you can continue to add carbons, which basically means this: the Lyme spirochete biofilm is as hard as concrete. It is significantly harder than just a fruit and vegetable 4-carbon sugar. So in order to be able to deteriorate this, when we show the research that, that says the bio— the antibiotics and the herbs and plants can deteriorate it, there's no stretch of imagination that it can deteriorate it in less than 21 days. So a live spirochete has a unique ability as well, not just to make its own protection, but it also, believe it or not, it's an intelligent being, if you will. It's a bacterium, it's alive, it has intelligence. It can recognize that something, that there's an invading substance. So when it recognizes that something is invading it, it can continue to produce biofilm. So the interesting thing is, once you have the biofilm, this 21 days, the Lyme spirochete can add to that biofilm, that existing biofilm, every 24 hours. So there's no way that you can get ahead of it, so to speak, with antibiotics or herbs or plants. You can't get ahead of it because it can be manufactured so much faster. So hence, there's the key to Lyme disease. So when you break all this down, what does that mean? If you want to get rid of the Lyme spirochete, you should not go after the Lyme spirochete. It's very easily eliminated. All you have to do is eliminate this protection, which is the mucopolysaccharide biofilm. If you can do that and figure out how to do that, then you will literally be able to eliminate Lyme from the body. Then it comes down to, since this thing is as hard as steel, as hard as concrete, what does it take and how can you deteriorate these biofilms in a host without hurting the host?

Well, and you bring up a really good point because a lot of the treatments that are offered out there are very hard on your body. You're going through rounds and rounds of antibiotics and it's nuking your body. And so there's this constant up and downward cycle of how the antibiotics are impacting your body.

Well, here's the other thing. So you're right now, there's so many people out there probably shaking their head a little bit and they're saying, but listen, I took antibiotics. You took antibiotics, Sarah. And you felt better, but you're still sitting in front of me saying it's not quite done yet. There's still, there's still learning, and everybody out there is in the same boat. So, so what happens is when you take these things, the antibiotics, the herbs, and the plants— again, I'm not picking on either side here— but what happens is when the biofilm, when the Lyme spirochete goes and hides underneath the biofilm, it goes into that dormant state. It doesn't— it's not eating away body tissues. So do you feel better? Absolutely. Most of the people, 90, probably 75 to 90% of the people that take these things feel better. So they're in their mind, what they're saying is, and here's, here's something for years I've been saying, the, we've been taught to judge our health on lack of symptoms, not symptoms. We've been taught to judge our health on lack of symptoms. So as soon as your symptoms go away, here's what you say. I took antibiotics and it cured my Lyme disease. All it did was put it into dormant state. So when it's in dormant state, and by the way, herbs and plants, antibiotics, herbs and plants, all of them do the same exact thing. They put the Lyme spirochete into a frightened state and it goes and hides underneath the biofilm. So naturally when it's under there, you feel better. It's not outgoing any damage to the body. Problem is, how long can you take these things? And eventually after a certain amount of time, you say to yourself, I've been doing it X amount of months, X amount of months, or I'm taking antibiotics. I do not want to take antibiotics the rest of my life. I don't know anybody that would ever say that. And herbs and plants, people are saying, I feel good. I feel good. And after a certain amount of time, 6 months, 9 months, a year, or whatever it happens to be, 5 days, they feel better. They say, I need to stop taking them. As soon as they stop taking them— magic number is 3 weeks, by the way— within 3 weeks, those bugs are out there playing again and they're looking for food and you've got damage again. So there's the scenario that everybody is in. If you want to eradicate Lyme from your body, you have to eliminate the biofilm.

Okay. So yeah, let's dive into that. It's just a whole thing. Lyme is an opportunistic illness. It is very common for people to spend— from the point that they get diagnosed or get infected, I know people who have been battling it for decades and they're doing stuff holistically. They're doing strategic dieting and eliminating foods from their bodies. So it's not a lack of effort. And yet I know people who are just for decades in this whirlwind of in and out of remission. And so since it is opportunistic and I've done over 300 coaching calls at this point over the last few years. And what I hear people saying over and over again is there's always a trigger of some kind that opens the door back up for— you can be in remission for 6 months, 6 years, and something happens, an emotionally traumatic event, a physically traumatic event like a birth or a car accident. And so when you chart people's history,— like, yeah, you said it— every single time that something happens in their life and it relaunches. And so all those little spirochetes come out of their biofilm and instantly you are back to fighting a full-on infection.

Absolutely. And that's exactly what happens. Lyme disease will reappear, if you will, and it's always set off by two different things. There's something else, Sarah, that we, we can— we need to talk about as well. But you're right, Lyme disease, most— the large majority of time, it's set off from an event. And it can be something physical, it can be ionizing radiation, it can be chemicals, and it can be some kind of stressor. There are the 4 different things that can set this thing off. But how it works is the bacterium, again, isn't— has intelligence, so it recognizes the innate ability to recognize when the immune systems and defense systems are lowered. And as soon as that happens, they come back out to play. That's what they're, that's what they're designed to do. They're under the biofilm, but they really want to be out there and they're born into tissues, but they really want to be out there eating food so they can reproduce and live. That's, that's their objective. So they, as soon as they recognize the immune and defense systems are lowered, they'll come out and play. Now that's the first way. And it's, and like I said, the large majority of people, it's an event. The second way though is sheer numbers. If you take what I had said earlier, this thing divides through binary fission, reproduces through binary fission. So the longer you have Lyme disease, look at the manifestation of how that works. You get introduced to the Lyme spirochete and you get a couple thousand of them in you. The next binary fission, the next cell division, you have double. So you could start out at 2,000, the next one's 4,000. But once you get— and that continues and continues. So when you have Lyme for 10 years, 15 years, 20 years, you now have had— so every, every 72 hours you had a cell division. So when you think about the numbers, when you get to a billion, the next cell division is 2 billion. The next one after that is 4 billion. So it gets substantially and substantially worse. There comes a point in the human body where you're so infested with Lyme spirochetes that I don't care what you do, it just— it has no more hiding places. It can't go into ditches anymore. It's out there and it's vying for food. You're devastated. And that's the people— I guess that's what they call chronic Lyme. I don't believe in, in the word chronic versus acute Lyme. There's no such thing. When you have Lyme disease, you have Lyme disease. It's either in remission or it's out there doing damage, and its objective is damage. It's not purposely doing damage, you don't want to put it that way. It's just looking for food, which the end consequence is damage to the human body. It's also— it's not particular in what tissue it wants. So why is Lyme known as the great imitator? Well, it's only looking for food. So if it— if you have a weakened area then it's gonna go there. So people will have a, will have joint pains, muscle pains. The next person will have brain fog. The person after that will have their gut completely annihilated. This thing can manifest anywhere in the human body and hurt and deteriorate any part of the human body. So again, it's, it's not particular where it goes. It can hurt and, and, and deteriorate anything.

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Okay, so let's get into— for our remaining time, let's get into how you guys are using the system you've established and lasers to increase efficacy and deteriorate that Lyme, that, uh, biofilm. Because I'm serious, you guys, I've interviewed Dr. Wine 3, 4 times already, and we have many more planned throughout the rest of the year because You're doing it holistically, you're doing it affordably, and that just doesn't exist. I really believe that what you guys are doing, which is why I keep inviting you to come on, is revolutionary and is paving the way for the future. And when I first started investigating you guys and looking into your program, I called a good friend of mine and who's an engineer. And I said, hey, I'm looking at this company because I'm, I'm pretty sure I'm going to put my son through this treatment program. My 16-year-old has Lyme disease. Lyme can be passed on genetically or through pregnancy. And so 2 out of my 3 biological kids do have Lyme disease and have dealt with issues. But he said, Sarah, lasers are the wave of the future, medically speaking. And he said, and the future is already here.

Lasers are so— lasers are by far the most advanced tool that we have had in the last century. It's lasers or laser diodes. And do not misinterpret when you have something out there and you see something that says LEDs are not lasers. They're called light-emitting diodes, which emit scattered light. And then you have laser diodes, and laser diodes are laser diodes. And I won't say issue. I'll say the, the circumstances around lasers have nothing to do with lasers. They have to do with the people that, that can program them and utilize them in the right format, if you will. So there's so many different dynamics in lasers that it's astonishing. So you've got, first you have the nanometers, you then you have the frequencies, then you've got the joules, then you've got the millivolts, you got the milliwatts. I can go on and on. You have to be so incredibly precise. The frequencies alone go from 1 to 10,000 and you have to be within 3/100 of a decimal point in order for lasers to work. So let me give you just a little something which—

Yeah. Give us an example of that. Cause that in and of itself is mind-blowing.

Just the nanometers itself are— the human body only absorbs 1 nanometer from the sun. It is actually 632.8, right? And that's it. So you have to be within 3 tenths of 3 hundredths of a decimal point in order for that to do any kind of goodness to the human body. So it has to be within the 332.5 and the 332.33.1. If you can do that, It'll do certain things. Then you have the frequencies go up to 10,000, and you have the duals, and you have the all the other dynamics. So it's not so much just picking up a laser and doing things and finding out what they do. If you want to do lasers, the number one thing that they can do is eliminate pain and inflammation, and they do not have to be that precise for those things to actually work. That's such a large realm for what these can do. When you want to get down to what we do, and again, we've talked about this biofilm that you have got to be able to deteriorate this concrete biofilm without hurting the host. Yeah. The dynamics of the laser— we actually counted, um, one of the young ladies that worked for me asked me the other day, she goes, so the lasers, I get asked these things, they change colors all the time, and some of them are in a line, some of them are round, some of them they have different, um, frequencies at which they pulse. What is— goes on with all these lasers? And she goes, so how many times does it do that? Said, for our laser patients, for our Lyme patients, when they're actually in there doing the lasers— and they'll do anywhere from a minimum 3 upwards of 6 different programs that we will put in them, depending on what we want them to do— there's over 1,136 frequencies in the laser for any one sitting. So you have to know exactly what you're doing, where you're putting them. So it's not so much the laser, it's the laser user and the laser programmer That is the key to whether lasers work. Now here's something that's fascinating. Lasers will only work on living entities. Really? They'll only work on us. They'll work on animals. They'll work on plants.

And is that because it's energy-based?

It needs energy. Lasers work— lasers only work on living entities. Now we're talking about living light lasers. Lasers— I can take a laser with a lower nanometer to go out there and cut steel. Okay, so that's a different— again, that we're talking, there's different nanometers for the lasers that we can use for humans, for healing, for pain, for inflammation, for Lyme disease. They will only work at those frequencies and nanometers. They will only work on living things. So if I— and they only do this, and they only enhance.

Yeah, let— okay, let's talk about that. Lasers only enhance.

They only enhance. So if I want— so people say, well, it took my pain away. It didn't take the pain away. What it did is the laser created the chemical production in your body that takes away pain. Lasers don't take away pain. Lasers don't take away inflammation. They enhance the body to produce something that will in turn take away pain, the different chemicals. So it's about body chemistry. Now, when I want to deteriorate a biofilm, I have to find something that can deteriorate a biofilm, and then I I have to enhance those different things to be able to actually do that job. Now, you've asked me many a time to give away my secrets, and I'm still not going to give them away. So I'm not— there's— I'm not going to do that yet. Someday in the near future, I promise, Sarah, I will, and we'll go and do a podcast, and I'll promise you'll be the first one I'll let know, and we can shoot this out to the whole world. But for right now, what I need people to know is we have figured out— I have figured out how to be able to deteriorate this biofilm inside a host without hurting notes, and I use lasers and a whole different host of things. So I, I had a doctor just recently come to my, my office who's actually a friend of mine, and we were talking, and we went over to my house, and we were in there, and he goes, so he goes, where is all this information and all this research? You show me, I see your desk, it looks like a mess, it's like a junkyard, everything around you, it's unbelievable. Where do you have all your stuff Where's the actual stuff hidden? I said, it's in my safe downstairs. Come on. And I got a little wine cellar down there. So we go down there and we, I show him the safe. It's a big safe and it's bolted with bolts that big to the concrete floor. And it weighs, I don't know, half a ton and a half, something like that. So nobody's stealing anything. And he goes, well, aren't you afraid of— and I said, look, there's 3 people that have a combination. And I'll tell you what, I'm going to give you the 4 numbers to the combination right now. And he goes, what? Aren't you afraid? Aren't you afraid of that? I mean, you know, they give you the 4 numbers and you know what, you can sit here all day and try to get— in fact, you can spend the rest of your life here because I'll give you the 4 numbers, but you're never going to know the combination. And what I've figured out and what we were able to do, again, just the lasers alone, which is one part of what we need to be able to deteriorate this biofilm, there's so many dynamics in there. I will be happy to give some of the stuff away and I can give you the combination to my safe, but you're never going to get into it. Because you have the numbers, but you don't have— you don't know what— how to turn them. You don't know which one is first, which one's right.

That makes so much sense.

That's what I have. So it took me— I've been doing this for over 40 years. Once I figured out that it was the biofilm, which was around 2008— from that, I'm sorry, 2004— it took me until 2008 to figure out how to be able to actually deteriorate the biofilm. From that point on, pretty much since 2012, because it took me another 4 years to actually protect the Lyme laser protocol Because here's something else that's fascinating. Getting rid of the Lyme biofilm eliminates the origin of the problem, gets rid of the bug. We can get rid of it now. We can do that. It does not make you one bit better. All it does is gets rid of the biofilm. Now, the body still needs to get into healing mode so that people can get better and their systems and their symptoms can go away. So Everything that we just talked about, there's not one person out there that really cares. They do understand it's probably fascinating to a lot of people, and a lot of people are now saying, he's right, biofilm makes a lot of sense. Okay, good. All you care about is, can you get rid of my symptoms and you make me healthy again? That's the bottom line. So the first part is you do have to get rid of the origin of problems. That's the biofilm. Therefore, now you can eliminate the bacteria. And here's the other thing that people ask me all the time. Well, how about the co-infections? And you and I had this conversation, and I just don't like to talk about biofilms because if you get rid of the worst bacteria, it's so easy to get rid of the other bacteria. If you get rid of the worst virus, it's so much easier to get rid of the lesser viruses. And the same with the protozoa, the same with the funguses. And the mold is the new fad.

Everybody thinks that everyone has a lot of mold.

It's not. The mold is the consequence. All of these things are the consequences of an immune system being compromised. So when the Lyme spirochete is eating away body tissues, the first place that it goes is your gut flora, and it eats away your gut flora. And it— by doing so, it accomplishes so many things. First of all, it's enormous amount of food. So once that's eliminated, now all the food that the host eats goes to feeding the Lyme spirochete. And not only that, 75% of your immune system is derived from your gut flora. Flora. So now you've compromised the body and its immune system. It's got 75% less immune system, so it has less adversaries. So now the immune system— everybody that has Lyme disease, their immune system is completely compromised. And if the Lyme spirochete hasn't done most of it, antibiotics will kill the rest of it.

So yeah, well, and there's so many people out there, you know this, but there's so many people out there, and I was in this position for years where I was getting a diagnosis of chronic fatigue syndrome, chronic pain syndrome, fibromyalgia. These are all labels. And I, through my years, I know people with MS and lupus and all sorts of things. And when I started having seizures, that was the cat and tremors, that's the MS category is what they were putting me in. But so many of these labels that we currently have that are just being treated by primary physicians with steroids or pain meds or antibiotics are all have an underlying bacterial infection of Lyme.

They are not the cause. They are the consequence. Yeah. So the bottom line is you have to get rid of the origin of the problem. I don't like labels and all of you that are out there, here's one thing in the Lyme world that just drives me absolutely crazy. It's Everybody, it's all about testing, and it's more tests, and it's more tests. You go to these places and they— some of them, you have to spend $5,000, $6,000, $7,000, $10,000 on tests. Stop it. You don't need to know any more of what you have. And you, when you get infected with Lyme disease, you have every co-infection that comes with it, every one of them. Which one is manifesting at that time is which one's manifesting. So Then you get labeled with Bartonella or Babesia. That's fine and dandy. What are you going to do about it? The end result is we just label you with another one and it's the same antibiotic, whether you have this one or that one, it's the same antibiotic. So same clamps.

But see, here's the thing. You're touching on something as far as access to testing, because testing is not very accurate and it's very expensive. But that is what people are being told when they have a tick bite or they're not feeling good. That is the routine that they're in for months and years of go for testing and the testing I did testing for years for AIDS, for cancer, for any random thing that anyone could come up with, and everything came back normal or within range. And that's the story that so many people have. And so there's a mindset that you have to get to where you're like, okay, something is wrong, whether I have a medical label for it or not. And for me, I started diving into what was called the Gerson therapy because they claim to treat, which is coffee enemas and juicing and just flooding your body with juice.

And it was for eliminating toxins.

Eliminate. Yeah. And flooding your body with antioxidants. But that's like, even that in and of itself is revolutionary because almost every clinic that you're going to go to is going to, or doctor is going to require their own testing so that they know what to do. And that's the current standard of care. And yet We know this current standard of care is completely horrible, and it doesn't change what they do.

If it comes back with one test or the next test, the test says it doesn't change what they do. They have their set protocols, and that's what they do, period. Yeah. Look, here's the only test that I need. And as first of all, when we start off talking about testing, I'm only talking about whether you have Lyme or don't have Lyme. It's the only test that I need. So if you come back and you have Lyme disease, you have a band, you have— and that's a whole other story. I don't— my opinion, the bands— why do I need 5 bands when one band means you have it? So why do I need the other ones? I've never figured that. Oh, I have, I have my theory, but I've never figured out why they use it. But the bottom line is, if you have Lyme disease, you come back, and we don't do the testing. You go and you get your tests and do everything you want. When you find out you have Lyme disease then you come to us. We're not going to waste any more time or money on more testing because I'm going to get rid of all of it. I'm going to get rid of the— I'm going to get rid of the Lyme, the biofilm. So therefore, once that's gone, we can get rid of the Lyme spirochete. And once that's gone, the lesser ones and the other co-infections and anything you want to call it, from Candida to mold to parasites, all of it, they're easily eliminated once we can get rid of the host and get rid of the origin of the problem.

Well, what I want people to hear is that if you do have a diagnosis of chronic fatigue, fibromyalgia, mold, chronic pain syndrome, neuropathy, like whatever your labels are, it is worth a phone call to one of the Lyme Laser Centers to see what they can do for you. Because yeah, you're eliminating the root issue and then therefore whatever the symptoms are that are manifesting dissipate within the treatment process.

So we don't go— here's the whole— this is so cool, if you will. So when you do our assessment, I have an assessment that's over 600 questions.

You've taken it?

Yes, I have.

When you take that, the questions are not to find out what you've been labeled with. I don't care if you have the— it's not that I don't care, it's— that's a very harsh statement. I care enormously, and that's what we're subject is. But you're not labeled with one of these symptoms and one of these maladies because that's the problem. You still have an underlying cause. In other words, if you have hormone problems, well, it's the endocrine system that's beat up. If you have gut problems, it's— then we have to figure out how we're going to repair your stomach, your intestinal lining. If you have joint problems, that's because, well, there's a difference. It's interesting to actually sum it up. There's a huge difference when somebody comes to me and says, I've got this joint or I've got this joint that is hurting me, versus somebody saying, oh, I hurt, all my joints hurt, all my muscles hurt. So instead, if you go to anybody else, they're going to say, label you with some kind of arthritis or joint and muscle problem, correct? But when you have a systemic joint and muscle problem, it's not this joint, it's not this joint, then you have a systemic problem that affects joints. It's completely different.. And the system that affects muscles and joints globally or systemically is adrenal burnout. So if I go and try to treat your joints and your muscles because that's what you've got labeled with, I'm never going to get you results. If I go and take care of your adrenals and get those functioning again and get them repaired and get the lasers on them that can help to repair these things, okay, and I get them functioning, they're going to produce their chemicals and all those symptoms are going away. So I, I never 50%, 75% of people that come into me that have joint muscle problems, I never touch their joint muscles because that's not the origin of why they have that pain. They have a systemic problem, and that's the adrenal burnout. So I take care of the adrenals and guess what? Magically, their joint muscle pains go away. So you have to keep taking it back. Symptoms are, are, are the end result of something. They do not tell you where the problem is. You have to go to my assessment, tells me what systems Lyme has beaten up? Is it your digestive system? Is it your endocrine system? Is it your neurological system? I need to know what system got beat up. You're going to answer and tell me what symptoms, but those symptoms don't tell me— I don't care about the symptoms, I care about the system that got beat up, and I need to repair and help that system to get back to normal. And if I do that, those symptoms are going away.

I tell people all the time, they'll text me and be like, okay, I just had a baby and I'm in this horrible Lyme flare, like, I— do you think What's going on? Or, oh, I got a tattoo a couple months ago and now all of a sudden I'm having all these neurological issues, or, oh, I ate this food. And now— and I always tell people, it's not about the trigger. Don't get hung up on the fact that a tattoo is the thing that you're allergic to. Now, you don't have to avoid the tattoo. The tattoo is not the issue. The tattoo that brought forth those is the fact that your body has a systemic infection and it's not coping well. And so you don't have an immune system, much like AIDS. So everything is impacting you in unhealthy and dysfunctional ways because your body can't repair and cope with anything. Exactly.

So again, it goes back to what we had said a little bit earlier. It's always either an event or sheer numbers. The only way Lyme manifests.

Okay. Hello, friends. Today's podcast is brought to you by these sponsors: Medical Bill Gurus, the experts at Medical Bill Gurus. Gurus are dedicated to innovative solutions for any medical billing scenario, which we all have in this community.

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With empathy at the forefront of their daily mission, Medical Bill Gurus is dedicated to being in the trenches with patients and raise awareness for the daily challenges facing them. From medical billing errors to raising awareness for their diagnosis. Medical Bill Gurus takes pride in speaking with patients every day and helping them find guidance on how to navigate our broken healthcare system. Their patient advocates are available to help reduce medical bills and assist patients with navigating a dynamic health landscape. I also interviewed Daniel Lynch, a founder of Medical Bill Gurus, in episode 111. In addition to helping you get money back from your insurance company, If you need help deciphering what health insurance provider to choose, and I have done this several times a year for years now, or you are looking for a clinic that is covered by insurance, they are a great resource for all things related to medical bills, figuring out which insurance provider you could or should have. They're an awesome resource. Again, I use them multiple times a year. Give them a call. All right, now on to the show.

All right, well, we have a couple minutes left here as we're just tapping into a tiny piece of the Lyme puzzle in this interview. And yeah, and there's other components, there's nutritional components, there's detox components that are obviously a part of your guys' protocol. Let's talk very briefly about your at-home protocol because that is something that I am going to start with my sick 16-year-old here in a few months. And we, you guys are now offering, if there's not a location near you, you are offering an at-home program that you can do 3 days a week in your own home.

So believe it or not, just before Corona, probably, probably about a year before Corona hit, I had started doing all of the research and all of the documentation, everything we needed to do to start a home protocol. And the reason we started that simply was because our doctors, we have 8 locations throughout the United States. Most of them in the East. We go, we start with our furthest East is Bangor, and we have another one in New Hampshire. That's Maine. That's New Hampshire. We're in near Boston, right outside of Boston. You go down to, we have one near Baltimore. We have one near Memphis, Tennessee, another one in Kansas City. So the bottom line is we're opening up clinics, but I'm very particular and we have to train these doctors. So it takes a long time to get them. These doctors, when they're out there, we don't put them out there until they're qualified to know exactly how to answer and how to take care of things. So it takes us a long time to open these clinics.. And we'd suggest that if you're close to one, that you absolutely do go there because you'll get perfect care. Yeah. The problem is with Lyme, there's so many people with Lyme that are devastated. If they're not devastated financially from going to one way, but they're also devastated. A lot of them can't just pick up and leave there. They've lost their jobs, their houses. Other ones just can't move. I can't just pick up and go. So I started this to, to do my research. We got it done. We finished that, but probably about 4 or 5 months ago, we finished everything We had the same exact results with the home protocol that we have in our clinics. Yeah. So people that don't have that capacity, if you will, to be able to go to one of our clinics, we have the protocol. The interesting part is it's about the same price as going to one of our protocols, except you have to buy all the equipment now. So it is a lot more expensive, but when you weigh out the bottom line of going somewhere and having to stay there for 3 months and et cetera, et cetera. It probably comes out in the wash as far as the prices.

It does. We ran the math. For those of you who don't know, it's very common. Almost everyone I know has to travel for treatment. And because you're usually seeing multiple doctors, you usually have to travel out of state. That's, that is by far the most common reality for people. Obviously, if you don't have any resources and you can't travel, you're in a different boat. But the reality is you have to travel. And we've, I've moved out to Scottsdale 2 times. I went through Invita Medical treatment in 2013 and then again in 2018 after I got reinfected. And as we're looking at putting my son through your program, we were running the numbers on, okay, what would it take for us to move out to Boston for 3 months? And it's more affordable or pretty close to just doing it at home.

So I'm excited about that, but that's why we made it. So the people that just can't get to one of the clinics, and again, if you can, I strongly suggest you just go there. If you can't, We have the home protocol. You can look it up. It's— you can go on limelaser.com. So we are in April of 2021 and I've finished this protocol in January, in December and January. So if you would want to look it up right now, it would be under limelaser.com/homeprotocol. If you just want to go and look up our basic information and get all our research and the information, you just go on limelaser.com. But the home protocol is, it's available. It's available. Awesome.

Same results as what we get. Dr. Wine, as we conclude here, tell me why— I know this about you because I've gotten to spend tons of hours talking to you at this point, but tell me why you do what you do.

I had Lyme disease. It's real simple. We have on, we have on one of our biggest walls when you walk into our clinic, clinic. It says right there, you don't get Lyme until you get Lyme. Aren't all of you listening to this sick of the doctors and half of the doctors telling you you don't have it? And then it's so hard with the family and they're like, don't understand why you just can't get it together. And you have all— you don't get Lyme until you get Lyme. The other problem is I don't like the financial aspect of the Lyme clinic. It upsets me a little bit. Look, if you're out there to help people, let's help people. I happened to find the solution for Lyme disease. If I want to charge right now, I could charge as much as all the other clinics and I'd probably have a lot nicer cars. And you know what? If I can keep my price down and I can help people, that's just how I'm made. I think you too, Sharon.

We want to help people. Yeah. I started the podcast because I want to stop the suffering.

There you go. So we kept— we keep the prices reasonable as you can. I don't know anywhere else where you can go and get everything, a full 9 months down the road. Don't let the 9 months scare you away, by the way. It's 12 weeks intensive that you gotta do the protocol. And then the next 6 months is making sure that we get rid of all the little stuff and we get you into Body Regeneration so we can get everything perfect. So it, but it is a full 9 months. I don't know anybody that's gonna give you 9 months of all supplements, all, all your visits and everything for under $10,000. No, it doesn't exist hardly. So we, what if I help one person for $100,000? I could help probably 12 or 13 for under $10,000. So if I can get this out there and get more and more people helped, and our results are spectacular, we're way above 90%. So bottom line is we're good at what we do.

Awesome. All right. If you are dealing with lingering symptoms and you need a solution or some answers or a pathway to walk out of that, call Lyme Laser Center. Tell them you heard us on Lyme Voice. And tell them you heard it online, boys, and know that whatever is going on in your life, those symptoms, you are worth fighting for. So many people justify pain and arthritis and chaos going in their bodies because ultimately when we're fighting for a certain quality of life or our health, it comes down to like these deeply rooted worthiness issues.. And it's very easy, especially for whoever the primary parent is, to put their kids' needs first and put the household needs first and just think you're going to tough it out and deal with it and kind of just— and Lyme disease doesn't work that way. You can't just tough it out. It doesn't just get better. It usually requires a full-on effort to deal with it. And so thank you, Dr. Wyden, for your time, for everything you guys are doing in this Lyme community. I've talked to so many of your prior patients, and I know you guys are just making a huge impact in an affordable, safe way.

So thank you.

Thank you. Thank you for having me. Disease is contrary to life. Therefore, wherever disease exists, life must also fight to exist.

Good job fighting, Lyme fighters. Keep it up. We'll see you next time. LymeVoice contains general information about medical conditions and treatments. The information is not advice and should not be treated as such. Okay, Lincoln? Okay. The medical information on LionVoice is provided as is without any representations, warranties, expressed or implied. Okay? Okay. LionVoice makes no representations or warranties in relation to the medical information on this podcast. You must not rely on the information on this podcast as an alternative to medical advice from your doctor or other professional healthcare provider. If you have any Any specific questions about your medical matter, you should consult your doctor or other professional healthcare provider. And for you, you consult your parents, okay? Okay. If you think you may be suffering from any medical condition, you should seek immediate medical attention. You should never delay seeking medical advice, disregard medical advice, or discontinue medical treatment because of information on this podcast.

Got it, Lincoln?

Got it.