#105 Low-Code Process Automation and more w/ Oliver Deutsch (Axon Ivy)

Hello and welcome back to another episode of the Process and Automation Podcast with the Automation Guys. Yeah, here at the Process and Automation Podcast, Arno and myself are always covering a lot on low-code, no-code workflow process mining. Latest things, sort of AI agents. So pretty much everything, all things what you can imagine on process and automation. And of course today it won't be different as we have another great interview episode planned for you. So you know by now Arno and myself are very passionate about AI and process and automation, and we like to have a chat about these topics. With others, others who share the same passion as we do. So without further ado, it is with great pleasure to welcome our next guest. He works at the low-code process automation platform vendor Axon Ivy. He is the director of sales and marketing. He's based in lovely Vienna in Austria. And yeah, with that, welcome Oliver, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you, Sascha, and Thank you, Arno. Pleasure for me to be here.

Great. So yeah, I, it's just, we are very excited to hear your insights today and learn more about Axon Ivy. And yeah, to kick off, can you please share with our listeners a bit about your background and what you do at Axon Ivy? Yeah. And how it all started.

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. Yeah, as you said, I'm Director Sales and Marketing at Axon Ivy. I've been working for more than 10 years in the meantime for this company with a previous also quite extensive experience with software IT in the space of business process management and process automation. And XNILE is, as you mentioned, one of the leading process automation and orchestration platforms. I suppose we're gonna hear probably much more on it today. And we've been in the market for quite some time now, and in fact, we were among the pioneers in the field of process automation. And we are very strong with our direct operations in the DACH regions or German-speaking countries in Europe. And actually, we are expanding our global reach through partners and, well, our company, my team, our projects, family life. Of course, this all makes me busy all day and it's fun and actually must be fun. If you don't love it, you can't perform. And I'm happy to share my views with you here on this podcast today.

Yeah, brilliant, brilliant. Yeah, between Arno, myself, yeah, we, we have sort of more than 20 years experience in, in sort of with process and automation. It's crazy, 20+ years. But yeah, we have worked with numerous vendors like Axon Ivy, lots of others, to support companies with all things tech. Processing automation, low-code AI. So, so where do you see the competitive edge for Axon Ivy in the market?

Well, that's an interesting question and definitely not an easy one, although I should know our competitive edge, of course. But you see, in a space crowded with about 200 vendors that we see, it's not just about listing off features and functions, in my opinion. So what really matters is how organizations benefit from our platform and the impact of process automation on, on both their company's performance but also on their customers. So maybe let me break down my answer into 3 key areas. So one is technology, especially scalability of Axiom Ivy. Two is our company's philosophy, which plays an important role. And three is the quality of our professional services organization. Firstly, let's talk about technology, our technology and scalability. And I have to say for sure, X&ID boasts some great features, but so do many others in this space, right? What truly sets us apart is our— you mentioned this in your initial statement— is our unique blend of low-code capabilities, which we've had, by the way, long before it became a buzzword, and the seamless integration of coding in one single environment. This means our customers can create workflows quickly without needing extensive coding knowledge, but they can also develop complex and very mission-critical applications that these other typical flashy low-code tools simply can't handle. And we often find that companies hit a wall or hit the ceiling with low-code tools and then turn to Axon Ivy because of our capabilities. And in addition to that, I would say our open architecture architecture and reliance on, on de facto widely used market standards like Java or HTML mean our customers aren't locked into proprietary technologies, which gives them more freedom, right? So don't forget about the benefits that arise from this, because companies that have the option to handle implementations independently by themselves, they reduce reliance on us. They really they reduce reliance on external service providers. And yeah, speaking of our platform, very scalable indeed. You can start with simple implementations, you can use it deeply for sophisticated requirements, but also widely. XNI is a good foundation for company-wide usage, for using the platform strategically for many, many use cases. Closely related to this maybe is our licensing model, which aligns with scalability. So it's very transparent. It's a transparent use of licensing. Customers have full control over their costs. So unlike other providers that might charge per application or process, our model offers a very clear and predictable structure. So even when usage grows, there are no surprises, which makes then budget planning for customers much easier, right? And yeah, we believe in offering choices. That's a very important aspect what, what Axon Ivy stands for. So we don't believe forcing our clients into a, yeah, one-size-fits-all solution because whether they prefer on-premise or cloud deployment, it's up to them and there is no additional license cost involved. So we are about providing the customers the flexibility to whatever their future holds. And this is what I would call our competitive edge and sweet spot in technology and scalability. And the second sweet spot would be my perception of the company's philosophy. So not too big to lose sight of what matters, but not too small to tackle big projects. And, you know, you know, I mean, it's fun working here, whether you're a customer, employee, or partner. We want everyone involved to enjoy this journey. And as we have joined the Ricoh Group over 2 years ago, we've significantly now expanded our global reach, globally, right? And I can say we benefit now from the stability and the support of a larger organization that Ricoh definitely is. But we as XNIVE, we still maintain our independence and unique identity and Customer philosophy does not only refer to that, but also at X90, for example, customer feedback is very, very important. This is what guides us forward. So we listen to customers' needs, we make sure the platform evolves to meet their demands, we prioritize customer requirements and needs in our product development. And so ensuring customer satisfaction is a quite simple goal, but you have to live it. And that's easily said, but I think we proved it over the past years.

Yeah, I can confirm. Yeah, very creative.

Yeah, thank you. And yeah, third sweet spot, Sascha and Arno, is our professional services organization and successful customer projects because for us, quality in both in terms of our product, the platform, but also for the implementation services provided. Our professional team is extremely important, and quality assurance begins long before the project has started. It begins with the product, with the development of the platform that has to meet the highest standards, whether this is in terms of performance, you know, security, user friendliness, or functionality in general. And there are there are continuous improvements and innovations, and we ensure that our customers always have access to the latest technologies and features. But now I wanted to talk about professional services and the broad— I have to say, we provide, and I'm really proud to say this, extraordinary service through this team, which without any doubts is or ranks among the best in the Process Automation Platform industry. So our team has a lot of experience and expertise in implementing solutions. Just look at our more than, in the meantime, 1,000 projects that we have delivered. And the key element of this service approach is that to ensure that, that our projects are carried out efficiently and transparently, that we rely on Scrum methodology. So by implementing projects iteratively and incrementally according to Scrum, we make sure that our customers' requirements are continuously taken into account. And this enables us to provide feedback, timely feedback on implementation results and progress in each sprint. And this, at the end of the day, definitely leads to more successful project completion. And it's also, in my opinion, extremely important in a, in a fast-changing world, in a fast-changing environment is our ability to provide scalable and flexible resources on short notice. So we adapt to customers' needs, offer resources that can be tailored according to project scope, small, medium, large, and requirements. And you see, for Axonity, we stand for, for highest quality, whether this is through our platform or thanks to our professional implementation services.

Yeah, that's great. Great. Very good.

Yeah, I think professional services done by people that actually architected the product and see real-world implementations of real-world requirements. I think that kind of feedback actually promotes the product being better, right? Because you're effectively using the product to solve real-world problems. You spot gaps, new requirements, new features. And I think that that is a great sort of synergy between the sort of the product team then, and I guess the professional services team.

Absolutely.

Of course, of course, in our world, we see this a lot. I think we work with a lot of low-code, no-code vendors. We are on the implementation side of things, the consultancy side of things, and sometimes you do see a distance between those two things, product teams versus the professional services or expert services teams. So, and this kind of leads me nicely into my next point that I want to discuss with you. And it's about use cases, right? Because every tool, every piece of software out there solves problems. And we always on this show, talk about use cases because we find it's the easiest thing for people to actually imagine, you know, what Axon Ivy can do or what another platform can do. So, um, I just want to sort of talk about that in terms of the Axon Ivy platform and, you know, what, what, what are the, the sort of the, the standout use cases that you've delivered in the past using Axon Ivy? I know you mentioned you've guys done over 1,000 projects. I know it might be quite difficult to choose a Just one, it might be a top 10 or, but something that you feel stood out, it was a really interesting use case to solve, perhaps something that you looked at and think that this has never been done with low-code and you've guys have done that. So it'd be very good to hear your thoughts on the sort of use cases and the ones that stood out.

Terrific. Yeah, absolutely. I think We've encountered a diverse array of use cases that span from straightforward back-office workflows to sophisticated business-critical applications. And most companies aim not only to enhance efficiency, but also they want to ensure compliance and deliver impactful experiences for their customers. Let me maybe share 3 or some very interesting use cases and customer stories. Take for example one of the largest utility companies in Europe, which has embraced X&I as their strategic platform, platform across numerous fronts. So from core business processes to supporting back office functions, among them home connection of electricity, smart meter management, human resource processes in use cases, procurement, procurement, service processes. This company has leveraged the XNIV platform to automate and orchestrate many, many tasks and business processes. And in the meantime, we are very proud that we see more than 80,000 users working with applications that have been built on our platform at this customer. And one particular mission-critical use case which has been implemented on Axon Ivy is the so-called house connection process. So this process, as the name says, is vital because it facilitates the connection of households to services such as electricity or gas. And the smooth execution of this process is very, very important because you can imagine any delays or errors can significantly impact customers' lives and company's reputation. So if you don't have power, that's a problem, right? And by using our platform, this company streamlines, streamlines the entire house connection process from initial application submission to final service activation. And we enable the processing of requests, real-time status updates, follow-up inquiries, compliance monitoring— very important. And the coordination between various stakeholders involved in the process. And these are customers, field technicians, regulatory authorities, internal departments, yeah, and some others. And for this utility company, a house connection or a smooth house connection process means they enhance, yeah, the operational efficiency, they improve customer and partner satisfaction, and they ensure compliance with many, many regulatory requirements and also safety standards in this area, as you can imagine. Yeah, very interesting, very interesting use case or several use cases at this company. A second use case I would like to mention, another client, is about a digital end-to-end waste disposal solution which represents a paradigm shift for this company. It is a company which is specialized in hazardous waste management and this use case stream compliance and optimizes the entire waste disposal process for all stakeholders. So the company itself, their customers, which are large chemical and pharmaceutical companies which have hazardous waste to be disposed of, and public authorities that have to be informed and involved in this process. And the solution covers the processing of core business activities from offer creation, order placement to execution, the actual waste disposal, the automatic invoicing, and the whole process ensures compliance with legal procedures which are in place and the collaboration with the authorities. And the result is, of course, minimized paper documentation because everything is now digital, everything is now simpler and faster, and quite interesting with integrated IoT, so Internet of Things technology, to streamline the handling of trucks, incoming trucks. So trucks come in on this chemical depots area with waste. And very important for them is also the full insight into their processes for the reason of traceability. And actually, I have to say this is another use case that shows how very individual requirements, and this is very individual if you are a hazardous waste disposal company, there's not many out there. So it's a very individual— they have very individual requirements. And this example shows that individual requirements can be realized on such a process automation platform like Axon Ivy. And in this case, it's about solving these very unique requirements for which you do not find off-the-shelf solutions in the market. It's a fantastic use case in my opinion. And last but not least, another very interesting use case I'd like to mention. It's about a digital end-to-end human resource solution. A solution that unifies heterogeneous and fragmented processes in a multinational company. As you have to imagine, multinational company, very big, several countries. Lots of processes, yeah, extremely fragmented. And the goal was for them to implement lean and standardized processes across the entire group of companies. And it's a famous company with about 100,000 employees worldwide, and the project was for their many subsidiaries in Europe with more than 12,000 people. And initially, this company faced several challenges, like complex HR-specific systems, HR processes, numerous teams spread across Europe. There was a high volume of repetitive tasks and non-standard processes. There was a lack of a central repository for policies, documents, and forms. And to tackle these challenges, they've adopted and decided for XNIVI to simplify, to automate, to integrate— in this case, very important— all HR processes based on a best practice Human Resource Process Framework that they've established, and we prioritize then a quick implementation of a minimal viable product, MVP, in order to kickstart their transformation journey in the HR area. And the key element is the orchestration of disparate local processes and systems and the creation of a so-called one-stop shop which serves as a central contact point for their entire workforce, for all people involved. And we've introduced this user-friendly portal, this one-stop shop with simple self-service options for employees, allowing them to access and manage HR-related tasks quite easily. Not only for this customer, but also for many other large enterprises with a heterogeneous fragmented process landscape, this approach can be a very good one. So fully integrating and orchestrating existing systems, additionally enhancing these systems with new capabilities. This is an often seen requirement in large organizations. And in this case, we can say that we're not just modernizing HR management. It's, it's, we can call it, it's somehow a revolution. So we are revolutionizing it for the better, if you like. And it's, it's a great story like the other two that I presented. So again, a strategic process automation platform for many, many use cases, a sophisticated waste disposal application, very individual requirements, and three, standardized HR processes, one-stop shop across a group of companies.

Awesome. Yeah, I guess that gives a really good overview what the platform can do. And yeah, our listeners, they love use cases, and I'm sure some of them took some inspiration from that, especially. So maybe HR is very widely topic, a problem. So let's, let's go on to the, sort of the, sort of the buzzwords. You mentioned that earlier. So intelligent automation, hyperautomation is one thing. AI, of course, is sort of the, the thing of the last 2 years. So looking a bit into the future, where do you see things developing for companies in, in these areas? And where does sort of Axon Ivy fit in?

Ja, you know, what fundamentally distinguishes digital companies is their ability to respond quickly and flexibly to market dynamics. And today, being able to build and employ business applications fast is extremely important. Going digital is not just a trend, you know, it's the biggest opportunities that companies have ever had. But the challenge lies in the, let me say, inability of existing, existing systems to address these opportunities, the opportunities. The problem is that many of the systems we use at work are old. They are old. Some of them are many years old, even decades old, and they are not suitable for supporting digital transformation. They can't keep up with how fast things change nowadays. They have long been developed with agility and flexibility in mind. But standard tools like SAP CRM or ERP in general, document management, they are not essential, but there's a growing need for this bridging solution that seamlessly integrates these systems, like the example I mentioned before. And so what happened in the past years? You said, you mentioned the rise of technologies, RPA, low-code, no-code, and so on. But now we are seeing a shift in the landscape of automation technologies. So hyperautomation, RPA, low-code, they were, let me call them, the darlings of the digital area, and they are now reaching the plateau. They've been very, very popular the past yeah, 5 to 7 years. But now we recognize that they alone are not sufficient. They're not enough. Take the hype of no-code and low-code solutions, for example. This can be certainly useful, but the truth is it doesn't matter whether we write a lot of code or very little. What really matters is, again, our ability to be agile and flexible in the face of complex business and IT requirements. So simply buying a flashy low-code tool will not guarantee success. Um, what will happen? Um, you will, you will end up in a dead-end road. I always compared it's like being stuck in a narrow street with no way out, car, or maybe better with a truck, right? Unable to move forward, unable to move backwards. So you see the picture or turn. But this means, with other words, it is important to not just building solutions that work today, but also building solutions that can evolve and improve over the time. And same thing for RPA. RPA is symptom fighting. RPA automates tasks as they are, but without really changing or improving the underlying processes themselves. And therefore, while RPA can solve these immediate symptoms of manual labor, it does not help, it does not address the issues that are cause of those symptoms, right? Or help companies to realize a digital transformation for the entire company. And I think the complexity of requirements are far too high that you can, that you think you can, you can do it with RPA or that you think business people can do it without technical knowledge. You can't develop sophisticated solutions with RPA or with business people only. It requires much, much more to get out of more, to get more out of, you know, digitalization efforts in a company. And as I said before, in, in, in today's world, The ability to build and implement business applications fast has never been more critical. And, um, well, I told you now what does not work. So what does work? So what does it require? Right? So how can companies get the ability to swiftly build and implement business applications and react to market changes? And we at X9V, we think it requires a fresh approach. With two fundamental components. Firstly, it requires a renewed emphasis on end-to-end processes. Let us call it the Renaissance of Business Process Management, if you like. So this move, this means moving beyond just improving single tasks or quickly implementing robots, all right. Secondly, it requires the integration of an additional process layer. Which seamlessly connects with underlying IT systems, an additional layer that not necessarily replaces existing systems but enhances them, like I described before in this use case, and seamlessly connecting them. And this is the point where orchestration comes into the play. So true process orchestration goes beyond automation and the orchestration of end-to-end business processes. Needs a blend of automation, of integration, and application development. I strongly believe that every company requires all these three capabilities because there is no automation without integration and development. There is no integration without automation and development. And when we develop, it is for the purpose of either automation or integration. And that's why companies need an integrated platform that covers all these capabilities. And in many companies, we see that these three capabilities are often separated across various platforms. And at XNITE, we combine all three capabilities into one integrated platform. Now, coming back to this additional layer, we have given this a name, this one-stop shop. And you can imagine like a centralized hub where users access all necessary functions without the need or the hassle of navigating through multiple systems. And obviously, I, I don't think I need to dive deep on the benefit. It's obvious for you: improve operational efficiency, positive impact on employee satisfaction, customers are happier because of better service, better compliance, regulatory compliance, like the use case examples I talked about before. And my perspective resonates deeply with industry analysts such as Forrester or Gartner. And you know, you know, their perspective and opinions and papers. And in process automation and orchestration platforms are not just tools. They say they are enablers of digital transformation. They are catalysts, you know, for digital transformation. Forrester says scaling automation requires thinking in end-to-end processes, and they use the term automation fabric. So what exactly is an automation fabric? It's, it's to be understood as a framework, a comprehensive framework that supports the automation of various processes in an organization. And you have to think of a flexible fabric that weaves together different automation technologies. And, and this fabric should facilitate then the rapid deployment of simple workflows, but also the realization of more complex required applications. And the name doesn't matter if you ask me, whether you call it a fabric or you call it like we like to call it at Axon Ivy, a Swiss Army knife, which is of our origin and roots in Switzerland. It's about having one single platform that combines all of these capabilities.

Great.

Awesome. Yeah, that's very insightful. I think you've covered my next question as well. So just briefly, what's the best way to get started? How do you dip your toe into all of this? Because we've always got people asking us, well, it's RPA, let go, you know, how do I get started?

It's not an easy question, to be honest. I think there's a lot of advices that we can give the listeners and to companies. But I would say also here, 3 key principles. Firstly, clarity and commitment. This is very important. So digital transformation is not a journey, or is a journey, sorry, it is a journey, but not a one-time project. We agree, Laure. So it's crucial for companies to have a clear understanding. What are their goals? What are the challenges? What's the impact, the potential impact on digital initiatives on their organization? And this requires sustained commitment from leadership. It requires investment in resources and technologies. Very important. You can't go digital without any investments. And maybe in this context, another piece of advice: let's take action now. So waiting indefinitely achieves nothing. There's always an excuse, always something more urgent, another project or another IT system implementation. But clarity and commitment also means Dorty. Yeah. And secondly, I would say expertise. So leaders with a background in process management and IT architecture are crucial for digital transformation projects because they understand how to optimize processes and how to design scalable IT architectures. And their expertise enables them then to identify On one hand side, inefficiencies in processes. On the other hand side, how to integrate disparate systems which are in place. But in contrast, if we look into companies today, we still see managers who lack this strategic vision and the agility which is needed for these digital initiatives. They often focus on traditional IT investments, but In my opinion, leaders with a cross-functional and IT architectural background are better equipped to navigate these complexities that drive digital transformation. The combination of both, so the business view and processes and the technical depth, this is what is really important. Also here, maybe another advice, process automation and orchestration platform, as we are hearing today, play an important role in the adoption of innovative technologies. Why? Sascha, you mentioned earlier artificial intelligence and technologies in this area. The integration of innovative technologies such as AI, machine learning, Internet of Things is essential to get all this full potential of these innovative technologies. And this can only be done with an orchestration platform, with integrating these technologies into the process. That's expertise. And the third point would be collaboration. It's not just an IT initiative, right? It requires collaboration across departments, stakeholders. So involve key stakeholders from various parts of the company, of the organization, early on. Foster a culture of collaboration, shared ownership of this transformation journey. And digital transformation needs a holistic U. And all three are somehow closely connected, um, clarity and commitment, expertise and collaboration. But for me, they serve as guiding, guiding pillars for companies and help them to navigate the complexity of, of these digital transformation endeavors. Yeah.

Oh, wow. Yeah, so that's good. So I think one thing, um, you mentioned earlier, so there's maybe no, uh, some understanding. And I think that's what we— this is why we do the podcast here, so that some people out there get a bit more of, yeah, so understanding of what automation is and what they can do. So thanks for going through all these points. So there's lots of learning here. So every listener out there, I guess there's plenty you can take home from that one. But there's more usually what we do here. So this is, this is a bit different maybe than to other podcasts that would end now and that's it. So, but we like to ask a few questions to our podcast guests so that our listeners can learn about you more from a sort of people's perspective, not just a business perspective. So if you're okay, we would like to ask you sort of a few quick questions about you. So, um, go ahead. Are you happy?

Let's shoot. Let's see.

Okay. So, okay. So yeah, who is your idol and why?

My idol? Um, well, to be honest, I don't really have one. I mean, there are, I would say there are several individuals whom I somehow admire for their contributions, remarkable contributions in this world. So, you know, for for society, for humanity, like Nelson Mandela, for example, for a global symbol of peace, for social justice, for striving for the positive change in the world. And another area, someone I admire somehow is Albert Einstein, you know, for his discoveries in physics that show the potential of human intelligence and also curiosity. Yeah, my apologies, there's no Zingdo either, but many individuals who are inspiring in their own way, right?

No, it's okay.

Yeah, a few good ones in there. And I'm just going to move it to the next one, which is, if you can get all the contents and knowledge of a book instantly, which book or books would you choose?

It's been a minute. I really dived into a bunch of books, but I'm actually more of an articles and newspaper person. But, uh, seeing— I like seeing things from different angles and, and perspectives, um, to, to understand what's going on in the world. But, um, there's one book, um, it's called The Cultural Map by Erin Meyer, and it's the author. It's all about understanding how people from different cultures communicate. And work together, right? And I don't need to tell you, as someone who works in an international setting, um, this is super important. So you learn so much about how to connect with people from all over the world, different cultures, lifestyles, religions, and this helps build relationships no matter where they are from. And especially with everything happening in the world today with actual politics and all, and having that kind of knowledge is more important than ever, I believe it. It helps to bridge gaps and bring people together, a skill that the world needs.

Yeah, yeah, very true. So yeah, thank you. Yeah, so the next one is, what's the best advice you have ever received?

The best advice? Well, it may sound a bit weird that I'm mentioning this because, well, everyone seems to be saying it, but The best advice I've ever received is to embrace failure as a stepping stone to success. So, um, failure is, as we know, not the opposite, um, of success. It's, it's, it's part of, of your journey. So every setback, every mistake, every disappointment is an opportunity then to learn, to grow, to get back stronger. And, you know, it's, it's quite fun. I didn't really grasp the importance of this until later in my, in my age, in my career. Almost everything seemed to be going smoothly, but as we hear this advice everywhere and very often, there was a point in my life when I started thinking about it more. And, um, perhaps it was triggered by my passion for tennis. I don't know. Every time I lose a match or I lost the match, I reflected on the errors I made and That's when it hit me, and there must be something deeper behind all those sayings and advices you hear. And that's also when I started talking to my kids about it too. So whenever they face failures, whether this is in school or sports, I want them to understand this concept maybe much earlier in life than I did. So I keep on talking to them about it.

That is useful. So definitely it's more and more more thing in other regions. You talked about culture in different regions earlier. So in America, um, so especially when it comes to business failures, um, it's, it's okay, right? So, so they, they have a different culture. So the UK, it's, it's sort of in between, between, uh, America and sort of, uh, Europe. But in, in Germany, for example, it's very, very difficult to talk about failure as well. So say, yeah, I messed up my business. Oh yeah. No problem. So no one would say that in Germany. In Germany, it was like, loser. But, but in America, it's like, yeah, great, great. Yeah. So there's, there's this thing out there which is, which is becoming more popular. Um, look it up. It's really, really cool. It's called Fuck Up Nights. So this is, this is really like embracing failure and, uh, do some like weird stuff, or having a company or doing a project and it goes from like super successful to like complete disaster in a week. Those kind of things are incredible to listen to because you can take a lot from that. And during COVID we obviously learned about the word resilience a lot. So, yes, failure is an interesting thing. So, it's great. Thanks for sharing that. Yeah, I think our last one, Arno, do you want to take that one?

Could be an Olympic athlete, what sport would that be?

Okay. Very difficult to say for me. Well, I love tennis, but I like golf, soccer, and many other sports. Choosing between one for the Olympics is tough. I mean, every sport discipline that I personally have tried or I never wanted to do, like, I don't know, gymnastics, is inspiring. Whether it's the combination of strength and flexibility, precision, the mental and physical challenge of every sport appeals to me. And it has always been a passion of mine, doing sports and the intensity of a game, you know, the teamwork, pushing your limits and the atmosphere, playing in front of many fans is definitely an a really cool experience. You won't hear sport from me now, but you can imagine, of course, I would love to beat Novak Djokovic on the court.

I think everybody would love to do that.

That would be good. That would be good.

Yeah, everybody would love to do that.

Yeah, brilliant.

Thank you.

So yeah, um, Oliver, yeah, it was a great pleasure to have you on the podcast today. And, uh, yeah, I'm sure Some of our listeners would like to get in touch with you after that episode. What would be the best way for you to, um, to, or for our viewers to get in touch with you?

The easiest way is to drop me a message by email or on LinkedIn. Um, um, I'm the one, uh, who's indeed reading LinkedIn messages, although I also get a lot of them, but I try to read and definitely also to answer. So LinkedIn is definitely a good way to get connected with me. Otherwise, send me an email. That's also an easy way to get through to me.

Perfect. So, yeah, of course, I will add all the details into the show notes of this episode. Yeah, funny that you say you get lots of LinkedIn messages, but that's the curse of— that's the bad side of automation, because most of these messages are are automated.

Yeah.

And then you can try that out sometimes if you put some like weird icon, not even icon, but maybe an emoji next to your surname. So if you, or first name, you see people reaching out to you with that emoji icon and your first name. So then you immediately see that it was automated. So yeah. So yeah. Yeah. Thanks. Thanks a lot for being our guest today. So as I mentioned, yeah, we'll put everything in the show notes. Everyone can reach out to you and to Oxen Ivy. Yeah. That we are coming to the end of the episode. And yeah, big, big thank you to all our listeners as well today. Of course, we will be back with another episode very soon, like always. Yeah, and until then, let's automate it.