Spatial Computing Catalyst #8: BadVR's Immersive Data Visualization Lets You Visualize Your Business

We're filming a 360. Hello there. I'm Robert Scovel, and we're in Los Angeles with CZ.

Borders of Bad VR.

Yay. We're here in the headquarters of Bad.

VR, the very messy full of gear. Apologies for the 3D printer behind you.

No problem. Hey, this is why I like 360, because people get to see what a real startup looks like. No faking it here, Right?

Exactly. I don't even know if he can see us. Oh, that's nice.

Yay.

Great.

And who's that?

This is Jad, and this is Matt.

Matt. And introduce who they. Who they all are.

So I write code.

You write code. All right. In the headset.

Sometimes it doesn't work as well.

And he also helps with the hard brake, the special controller, the.

We have.

Great. Yeah. Yay.

Yeah. And then we have Matt, who's helping us with sales.

Awesome.

I do everything that nobody else wants to do.

Excellent.

All the grunge work and also the hardware.

So very cool.

Did you come up with the design for the stickers, I think.

Oh, yeah, I did the stickers.

You did the stickers.

Awesome.

Yeah, I got.

I gotta take some of this. Of course, that's. That's the real goal, is get stickers. Everyone wants new stickers, right. For their headsets. Oculus Quest is coming. So for people who don't know what Bad VR is, what are you. What are you all working on here? I know what you're working on, but people inside this little box called a360 camera, who you are and what you do.

Sure. So for the people inside the black box, we do immersive data visualization. So we take really large, complex data sets and put them into virtual and augmented reality, helping people find insights faster.

So when you showed it to me at the Game Developers Conference, you showed me a magic leap, which is one of these headsets, and you showed me a factory floor with all sorts of data streaming out the factory floor. So when I first heard about data visualization, I was like, oh, my mind goes to something like Excel and thinking of a chart or something. What you're building is not charts, and it's not Excel. It's actually helping you visualize your business in 3D on the real world. It's really pretty crazy.

Thank you. We really focus on giving people a shared context for their data and then also helping them find insights in a way that is easy and intuitive for everybody. So you don't have to be, like, a data visualization expert. You don't have to code in Python and you don't have to really understand complex charts. Our whole goal is to democratize it inside. So we want to make data accessible using AR and VR. And the way to do that, in our opinion, is not through multidimensional charts.

Yeah. So data visualization, why did you get into the VR industry? What drew you into this industry? And why VR?

Yeah, so when I was little, so I was born in California, but when I was like a year and a half old, my parents moved me to the Midwest, my dad graduated from medical school and they moved me to Kansas City. So long story short, no offense to Kansas City, I hated it there and I didn't have any friends, so I would obsessively watch Star Trek the Next Generation. And because I'm old I would tape it on VHS tapes. So I would watch the same VHS tapes over and over and over again. And part of what I loved about the Next Generation Star Trek is that they had a holodeck so you could go into a room and go anywhere in the world. And so I would read the Encyclopedia Britannica before there was Google and find all of these places that I really wanted to go. And because I didn't want to be in Kansas City, it was like this vision of being able to build a virtual world and go anywhere other than where I was and the infinite potential of that. So that's what drew me into the concept of VR, AR. Then of course like other sci fi movies, you know, like Iron man or Mission Impossible types of stuff, was always a draw as well. Wanting to make that real, it's like. Yeah, who wouldn't want to in my opinion.

Very cool.

Thank you.

Tell me about how you got started this business. Where did you get from that idea of you wanted to live in holodeck.

Actually creating a business? Yeah, yeah. So prior to doing this, I worked for two companies, one of them is called Green Mind, that did predictive, well, data visualization, predictive analytics for the residential real estate industry. I worked with Jan at that business, which is how we met. And so I was leading the design of that product. And part of that entailed getting together 200 different nationwide data sets onto a 2D map and then making that data understandable and usable for a non technical person, a AKA an average real estate agent. So I did a lot of research into who is an average real estate agent and the different Personas that would then be using this product. And the one that was most prevalent was like a 52 year old woman who Maybe has an iPhone and she might have a computer, but very non technical. So there were a lot of challenges around making that data accessible. And part of the challenge was getting all of it to the in one single view and making it contextually usable to them. So I had this idea that, you know, instead of looking down on this sort of map, if we could make it three dimensional and to look at it from the side or at least in 3D on a flat screen, I could get across more data to the end user and I could make it easier for them to understand what that data was telling them. And. But this was really early in the, like 2015, 2016. So the hardware for VR wasn't quite ready yet.

So.

Yeah, so I didn't think that had this idea of like data, AR VR together to visualize it, make it accessible. It was just sort of a sort of kernel of an idea and it didn't come to fruition. And we did some sort of exploration, but, you know, just didn't feel that the market was ready. So then I ended up going to a company called Prexi, which, which did essentially the same thing that reminded but for the commercial real estate industry. Sort of spent some more time there, again being the director of UX and leading the product design, same sort of thing. Did all these 2D analytics. And then once I sort of saw the industry mature more and I started seeing VR headsets that were ready for an actual deployment, like, they're not going to fail. They're not going to make someone sick. They are untethered. I can actually deliver, deliver a product on this piece of hardware. I was like, okay, I think now is the time for this idea to become real. So I put in my resignation.

Yeah, that's awesome.

Thank you. Thank you.

2019, we're about to get Oculus Quest. And I think that's a really big product for the industry because of that. Because it's 400 bucks because it's untethered, because it doesn't need a PC, it doesn't need a room. Right. All of these things have held a lot of people from buying VR and taking it seriously. And I think that's gonna open up new markets and prepare the market for what's coming next. Because I don't think five years from now, I don't think we're wearing VR.

No, I agree with that. 100.

All right, what do you think in five years we're wearing. And then are you gonna have to change the name from Bad VR to Bad ar, Bad xr, Bad Spatial computing.

Bad sc.

It doesn't quite roll off the tongue.

No, it doesn't. You bring up such a two good points about the name. Number one and number two, where I think the hardware is going. So I think that in five years time there is going to be no distinction between AR VR, Mr. XR. I think it's all just going to end up being one, one lightweight device on your head that has different modes. You can have a VR mode, you can have an AR mode, you can have. You know, whether you see the environment or you don't is going to be an option that you control that's not.

Dependent upon the hardware or the designer's controlling.

Right, exactly.

I could see having a virtual door here in your office and you go in the door and now you're in VR, Right. Or in Narnia you're in your holodeck you were dreaming of as a kid.

Exactly, exactly. And then I can use voice controls to.

In fact that's why I'm filming on 360 cameras now people, you can't really understand this 360 camera until you get into VR, right. And you can look around and you can actually act like you're a third person here. In fact, I sort of am trying to keep you off to the side.

Yeah.

So if. Right. I'm starting to have to think about this camera differently than I used to think about a camera before because somebody is going to wear a VR headset in this little box and look around, look at him and look at him. So don't pick your nose because no bad VR over here. But where I'm going with this is cameras are changing. Our ability to tell stories is changing. That's why I came to LA this week with my kids to see Intel Studio and see USC and see you guys understand visualization a little bit differently and where this industry is going anyway. So keep telling me, where do you think this industry's going?

Right. So I think that it's all going to be a lightweight piece of hardware that goes in your face that looks like glasses and they think it's going to give you the ability to, to have AR and VR in one single device. And I also think that it's going to augment sort of everyday life. So it won't just be the way that people think of like, oh, VR or ar, it's just going to be, oh, this is my interface or whatever the word ends up being for that. So you know, if you think about like how when mobile phones came out and you had the Internet and all of that. Like people thought like, oh, it's an add on to the, to a phone device that now when we think of a phone, just like obviously that the phones connected to the Internet. But like back when we first had mobile phones, that wasn't a given and that was not something that people took for granted. But I think that that's how it will be for these glasses. It's just like, oh, it's the glasses that is. That augments my world. But it won't be like, oh, here glasses with AR and VR capabilities. It'll just sort of be assumed. And I think that we'll have certain wearables that tie into that whole ecosystem gas gathering data about ourselves, our environment. And that's why I think that data really is the killer app for immersive technologies. Because all of the interfaces and all of the displays really are driven by data. And the way that you present that to the end user in these immersive environments is something that we really is a new frontier that we really have to rethink what that is. Going back to what you said when they thought data visualization, I think charts. But when you have have an immersive environment, that's really not the best way to display it. Especially when that data is contextualized to you like a Fitbit or something, or you know, data about your environment and it's giving you an augmented sort of true version of augmented reality. It's overlaying all of this data. It can't be overlaid in charts. Like, that's just not going to work.

No. Here's an example that we might talk about. Retail space.

Store.

Right, Retail store. I want to know dwell times. That's data. Business data.

Exactly.

How long does somebody dwell in front of the Oreo cookies? Right. Versus the milk, versus the Cheerios, versus the soups. Right. Versus all the other places. And do you want to see that in Excel spreadsheet? No, you want to see it as data, like a huge heat map on top of the store. If we were designing a new store, we would walk around an existing store with a heat map of the dwell times. So we would know where people are actually stopping and hanging out a bit. And so we would know, you know, that's where we charge Anheuser Bush more money for their beer display.

We know people hang out exactly right here. So this real estate costs more than not real estate.

Absolutely.

Also overlay it with traffic patterns from different days and times.

Truth is, they're way more sophisticated than that. They actually look at. What three thing or 15 things did you look at before you got to the beer?

Cookies, peanuts, margarita mix. Yeah.

What got you into the beer?

No, it's. Yeah, I mean, that's a. Data in an environment and Contextualize, I think, is like, just like, that's the killer app for VR, AR, all of this, whatever it ends up being in five years from now. Because that's what really drives the use and the value of that is like, hey, I can augment myself and give myself essentially superpowers. Whether that's X ray vision into the, you know, signal data within a room or whether that's X ray vision into the lingering time in front of beer stand. It really depends on your industry and what matters most to you. But all of it is best not done in Excel or into a chart.

It's a pretty crazy world coming at us. How are you guys funded? Tell me a little bit about how you're building this company and probably you're going to need more as you get bigger, as the industry gets more interesting.

Definitely. This sort of also goes back to your question about the name, which I definitely want to address. So, right now we're funded primarily friends and family, and we received a grant from Magic Leap through their independent creator program. So that was really wonderful and helped us out a great deal. We've also applied for and have been shortlisted for two SBIR grants through the government. So that's sort of another funding strategy that we've been pursuing. But right now it's primarily angels, friends and family. We are talking to VCs, and we do plan in our next round to really, like, embrace that and go in that direction because we will need to raise more capital, you know, to bring this whole product to market. Right now we're doing pilots and that's been very helpful in terms of building, you know, getting feedback from users and figuring out exactly what each of our data environments needs to be. And obviously it brings us money in and that's fantastic too, which is another way that we've been funded is, you know, the money that we're actually making from people using our product, which is always a good thing. But, yeah, so that's sort of our overall strategy and speaking to the name and how that relates to vc.

Yeah. Where does bad VR come from?

So it's funny, when we go in and pitch angels and friends and family, people that I've worked with before who believe in me as an entrepreneur, never, ever have problems with the name. They all love the name. They think it's fantastic. They're like, well, I think it has to do because they know me, right? And so they're like, it's an extension of CZ and it just very much fits my whole vibe. But when we go and pitch vc, is there, the name is like, well, I don't really know about that. And what's it. Why is it bad? And do you think people will be bad or think that it's a bad technology? And it's just funny to me because then the customer side of it, we put up a booth, we went to TechCrunch Disrupt, you know, we went to Mobile World Congress. Every single person, I love the name. All of the people that are paying us money, they. Customers, you know, like, and these are large multinational corporations. It's not like, you know, mom, you know, mom and pop stores on the corner. They don't love the name. They don't have a problem with it internally. It's not. So, you know, I think it's. It is. There's a.

No, it's a funny name. It makes you go, what. What is this company?

That's good, though.

Yeah. It has some personality to it right away. Right? You know, because obviously you're in business, so you're doing something right, Right. It's not all bad.

It's so bad.

At a startup. I used Dave Weiner, I used to work for Dave Weiner at Userland, and we would say we make shitty software with bugs.

That's funny.

Yeah, it is funny. Right? But it's a good way to look at the world.

You gotta have a sense of humor, right?

You know, and have some personality to your. Into your communication and who you are. Because that. That gets attention in the marketplace.

It does, it does.

It's like it catches your eye on Twitter. It's like, what's this bad VR thing? Right?

Exactly.

Yeah. Click. So people check you out, right? Versus, you know, something that's sort of bland, right?

Like XR analytics, you know, and the other thing that I'm very passionate about is, you know, I love the enterprise space, but enterprise is made of people, right? And I feel like a lot of the tools that are specifically focused for enterprise are intentionally bland, boring. Because people think that, like, if they give it any sort of. Of character, personality, that it won't be taken seriously. And I don't believe that. I believe people are hungry for a tool that is both powerful, useful and fun and engaging to work with. So if you can provide that and give them even a glimmer of like, fun and play within their daily workflow and the tools that are presented to them, they eat it up. And it's just people are so scared to take that risk because they're like, oh, but what if people. People don't take me seriously. I'm like, I just, I'm an absurdist. I think the world is pointless and meaningless and everything's absurd. So, like, take the risk, you know, be fun, be engaging. Like, I really have been so happy to see that people are eating well.

There's a reason that you're one of the first enterprise companies I've started with because on our new video series, because of that. Right. Because you stand out and you're pushing a new world that I think is going to be a big world. Right.

Thank you. Yeah, me too. I'm glad that we share that same vision. And I think that that new world, we all have an option to contribute to that. And I want my contribution to be obviously something that's very valuable to people, very essential to the way that they do work in immersive spaces. But I also want people to be like, that's cool, that's fun. I enjoy work, you know, because we all end up working way more than we should and we all end up being stuck with tools. And I have been stuck way too many times with tools that are just completely boring. And I want, I'm like in flow state. I want to enjoy that flow state. I'm doing something I'm passionate about that I don't want to have to suffer with the tools. I don't want to see another bland, boring button, you know, whatever. Like, I want something that makes me.

Like, what is it about enterprise companies that always do that? You know, even.

Yeah, it's because people are scared, you know? And like, as much as people want to say, like, oh, I'm an entrepreneur and I'm a risk taker, you like, the reality of it is, is that, you know, people don't want to take risks. They're scared to the way that people perceive them. They're like, oh, but what if someone thinks I'm not, I'm not serious. You know, it's their ego that's like, I have to be perceived in a certain way. I mean, my ego left the door when I touch and my neck and my hands, I'm like, obviously people are going to perceive however they perceive me. And obviously I want to be somebody who's respected or whatever, but I am who I am. And I think that that being myself is inherently going to bring respect to me without compromise. So I think that the same extends to my product. It is what it is. It's powerful, it's fun, it's cool, it's badass. So that's where the name comes from.

I love it. Resistance, the request to dumb it down or become enterprise. I think it'll really help you stand out. And this industry needs more people to stand out. What should we talk about? Enterprise. Are you having your early days? So I don't know how many customers you have. You're sort of like Infinite Retina. Same thing. We're hitting the door, hitting the pavement, trying to find a customer. What's the challenge right now for your business? And how do you think that will change over the next 24 months when Apple comes in the market and Microsoft with another product and Magic Leap's coming out with a new headset next year, blah, blah, blah, blah. This industry is really going to change in the next next two, three years.

Oh, yeah, for sure. For sure. So, yeah. So our biggest challenge right now is really just growing, getting more people. We're looking for a bunch of people to hire, getting that integrated into our company and all of our operations. And then also once we have those resources, continuing to scale up from our customers. Like right now, there's only so many that we can handle because we're a small team. We have a huge sales pipeline. You know, we're going as fast as we can.

So he's doing his job.

He's doing his job. Exactly.

A quiet salesman. That's another weird thing.

We are all against stereotypes in any way, be as interesting as possible. But yeah, I mean, scaling up, pursuing and closing deals and handling more customers and then continuing to stay close to each one of those customers and using their feedback during this pilot program to adjust the product strategy so that when we do actually release our platform, that all of these data environments are as best suited to the data sets that are used in them as possible. So it's really just the challenges of any small startup scaling personnel and then continuing to figure out features and roadmap and refine that as time goes on. So, yeah, and then, so as hardware changes, I think things get a little easier for us because a lot of the features that people want that we want to give them become built into the hardware, which makes it easier. And then of course, when the hardware is less sort of in prototype mode. So I don't want to say that like, you know, Magic Leap one is a great headset, but it's still sort of like in development it's still a little buggy. So once that becomes more stable, we are able to deliver better experiences. We're able to, you know, have these deployments that on our end are less nerve wracking and makes that life easier for us overall. So I think that, you know, you see collaboration, you have, you know, the retinal scans, which is important for us. And as a data company, people very much want that security, knowing that their data is secure. So all of that stuff makes our life easier. And then of course, as the hardware gets sort of converges together into the one headset thing, which is, you know, glasses, where you think it's going, then that makes it easier for us too with our names. So like oh, bad VR, but we do A, R, do X, R, V, do Mr. Whatever. It all just sort of converges together into one thing data. Visualize that one thing. It, you know, it's just a little scattered right now, but like you said, it's going to dramatically change in the next couple years.

Have you figured out how to talk to the press or what shows you're going to go to with booths and stuff like that to try to get customers? Is that too early yet or have you figured that out yet?

Definitely. I mean, I'm still new to the game in terms of like speaking to the press, but we've definitely had a very successful strategy, honestly built around Twitter. So being out there and putting myself out there and being my charming self and with my very strong opinions about tons of different things has brought in a lot of attention for the company and brought in some amazing leads that just find us, you know, a lot of people approach us about digital marketing and should you do digital campaigns. And to be quite honest with you, those campaigns that we have done don't yield nearly as much as talking to the press as being myself. Getting into tweet wars with people on Twitter and just putting myself out there in my opinions draws in a lot of attention. And then in terms of booth, yeah, we have a whole plan for conferences which also have been a main driver of customer acquisition for us and just getting our name out there, our brand out there. So one of the things which I'm sure that you'll find too with your company is that it's hard to describe what our experiences are in words. Right. So when you're pitching somebody and you're talking to them, if you can't put them in a headset, it's just very hard for them to see the value add. So that's why I love conferences is that we're there with demos. We can give people demos versus.

And with these new standalone headsets, it's getting a lot easier. I mean, you can buy 10 Oculus Quest before. Grand, right?

Yeah.

And I could put that on my credit card. And now you can go to CES or South by. Or Sundance or wherever. Do you have any list of favorite conferences that you think you're going to hit in 2020?

Definitely. So we had a great time at TechCrunch Disrupt last year, and then a large sort of industry that we're focusing on is telecom. So, of course, Mobile World Congress Americas. Not the one in Barcelona, unfortunately, although I love the city of Barcelona. And then we're doing Augmented World Expo, of course, which is a big one for us that we did last year as well. And then we're doing IoT World Startup Elevate up in Santa Clara, and that one is a big one for us in terms of IoT applications. So out of the men, of course, I have to say leapcon, because part of the independent creator program grant is to have, you know, booth there and do a whole unveiling and whatever. So, of course that's on the list. And I had a great time.

Yeah, I'd suggest going to CES because at Showstoppers, we're going to have a spatial computing area, and Showstoppers has more than a thousand journalists who come by. It's all for journalists. So it's an interesting way to launch product and talk to journalists. Well, we should see what you all are doing and see if I can capture it with this little camera. That's always a problem.

We could do. Do you want to set up the Chromecast for that?

Sure.

Yeah. Well, we could do that. Or we'll record some and put them and see if I can put them into this video somehow. It'd be easier to do that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay. Remember I gave that Chromecast, the customer came in.

Oh, yeah, that's right.

Okay, that's cool.

Well, we can send over some videos and stuff like that, so little clips that you can put in into it. It might be a little easier also than trying to, like, videotape the tv. You're talking about controllers and stuff, like the data experiences.

So tell us about that.

So this started life as a DJ mixer, and then we chopped the bottom half of it off and we added some circuitry and we made it visible inside VR and then we mapped in all these user interface elements on the controls. And so now this is your data controller, so you can Turn on this data level, adjust this knobs and start to sift through it. You could also point at stuff and then press buttons. And so you end up having this almost like a keyboard equivalent in VR. All the controllers that come out now, you're like holding a mouse, a pointer, a TV remote in your hand. It's really hard to get precision sometimes you have to like twist your arm and rotate and try to do it, or maybe use these little joysticks. It's almost like you're really limited sometimes with the interface, but with this thing you have like your keyboard, you have your precision, you can dial in really, really specific variables. And so when you're tuning a data set or working of, you know, hey, add in this layer and now fade this down a little bit and add in this other layer and start to attach, adjust the value up. And so anyway, this is part of our thoughts is I think a lot of this stuff has to do with the interaction and the interface between the person and the VR hardware. So the controller is really important. So we build our own controllers. We would love to buy them, we would love other people made them. In the meantime, we'll build them and we'll go to the music store and we'll find random looking things that look cool and chop them off apart. And this gentleman here is helping us with making them exist. He's salesman, but he's also 3D printer. Yeah, so we have our printer there.

The controller is a really important part of the solution because what we're trying.

To do is to give you that.

Much faster insight into your data. And if the controller is holding you back, then what's the, the point? So we really needed something to allow you to change all of the various dials and knobs and everything in real time so you could see it in VR in there. I think it works really well.

Yeah, it feels natural.

That's awesome.

The other option was a point and then the keyboard was like, I want to search for this, I want to filter this. Which is just like it took so long to type all of that in with a point point. You know, it just, it wasn't. So that's was the compromise. It was better than a keyboard because the keyboard is, you know, you still have to point and click on stuff. It just made it super easy.

That's cool.

And it's something you can hand to somebody else. If you have three people in it and you're playing with it, you're doing it and you say, okay, I found something cool, but I'm you know, you take a try and you can literally just hand it to somebody and then they can start doing it and interacting with the same information. So it's just, it makes it a little bit more collaborative too. It makes a bit.

Little bit more of a fun experience.

Yeah, that's cool.

Well, it's awesome meeting you guys.

Yeah.

And seeing bad VR.

Yeah, definitely.

You're doing great work. I like what you're doing. I like where you're going. I think the enterprise is going to be a big deal for the next couple years. I think, you know, once Apple comes to market, the consumer market takes off. And I think for the next few years the money is going to be an enterprise. You're seeing that Mic shop with hololens says we're not for consumer, we're just for enterprise.

Right.

Yeah.

It's $3,500 and it's a big black thing, you know, so walking around a factory floor is okay. Right. But.

Right.

Wearing it at a shopping mall. Nope.

Not yet.

Not yet.

It's got to get smaller before that's.

And we know get smaller, but we might see some bigger devices as well for a while because bigger lets you do more, more field of view, more, more sensors, more stuff.

Right.

More compute. And compute is going to be a problem eventually. Maybe not for what you're doing, but for, you know, a lot of things.

Yeah, for sure.

Coming from the 5G tower is.

Yeah, yeah. How soon is this neighborhood gonna have 5G? I don't know.

Hopefully. Hopefully pretty soon. Hopefully pretty soon. So it's supposed to be in this area and Playa Playa del Rey, it's supposed to be a 5G thing.

I think you're pretty close to a cell tower.

It just started rolling out. Yeah.

But the problem is you need to be within a kilometer and a half of a cell tower. And how many people are within cloth or half of a cell? Delta are not very many. Right. Because LTE can be 15 kilometers away. And this is a new architecture that AT&T imprezn have to put down. And yeah, you have to be within a kilometer and a half. And also it doesn't go through walls very well. At least the high bit rate stuff doesn't. Right. And then what is 5G AT&T's lying on?

Well, this location would be great for small cells. So if you're watching AT&T, come over here and install some 5G for us.

Yeah, yeah.

You can use our C signal product to auto out the data.

Actually that would be smart for AT&T to find all the hotbeds of VR, AR entrepreneurialism and put a 5G cell tower next to that. Right. Because then as that gets built out, more people get earth innovation. Yeah. But it's a ways away. A couple years, three years, five years. Some of my friends think seven years.

Right.

But it depends how far into rural America you go. Right.

This is true.

You know, if you're down downtown Chicago, downtown San Francisco, downtown LA. Yeah. You're gonna have 5G probably pretty quickly. But the further you go from downtown, the harder it'll be to get.

Yeah, there's still like, I think it's something ridiculous. 50% of the country doesn't have, you know, like anything more than three or four Jeeps.

Yeah.

There's still very, very large spots.

I know we're driving home right after this on Highway 5, you know, then. Yeah, yeah, you can't stream Coachella most of the way you can in la. It's great. But as soon as you leave the boundaries of population and there's still even.

Spots on that five where there's no coverage, zero coverage. So it's like, you know, before we start really biting off like 5G in like a universal sense, let's get coverage universally and bare minimum edge.

But there, there, to be fair to all the cell companies, there are lots of markets where there is population density. Singapore, Singapore, China, India.

Right.

There's billions of people around the world who live in high rises in a very dense neighborhood. And they're going to get 5G pretty quickly.

Yes.

Right. Because that makes a lot of Sense to put 5G in there. And also, I still am wondering, do we see a new architecture like, does Tesla start putting radios into cars? Do we start getting mesh networks? My friends are arguing with me about that.

I personally believe. I remember the last time that we had a conversation you mentioned that to me. It was like. I was like, that's genius. I really think that that would be. Yeah, I believe in that.

Park showed me mesh networks on phones five years ago. Right. That's where the Macintosh was invented, stuff like that. The problem is you didn't need it. When you, when your cell packet can go 15km, now that it can't go that far, you're going to need like it even here. Right. You're inside a building. If it doesn't go through walls very well, well, maybe you can hop it around the building a few times. From iPhone to iPhone to iPhone to iPhone. Well, that's only 8 milliseconds of latency right there, right? Yeah. It's 2 milliseconds latency each hop you have, right?

The moon and back twice.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, that's not a whole lot of late. I mean, LTE has I don't know how many milliseconds of latency. 30 or 50 or 70 milliseconds.

Yeah.

Sometimes more.

Right.

So, you know, two being a big deal if it takes you eight to get out of a building. Right? Pop, pop, pop, pop. Right. And now you could build a little mesh network to bring 5G from outside, inside, you know, But I don't know. That's how my mind works. And then my friends are like, no, that'll never work.

That's what friends are for.

Yeah, yeah. You know we still want the holodeck, right? The holodeck won't work either, you know.

But I still want it.

I still want it. Would you ever leave if you had one?

Would I ever leave, like, permanent reality?

Would you ever. If. If there was a holodeck out here, Would we ever see you leave?

No. The answer is no.

If you turned it off on me, I would be very pissed.

After you. I feel like, flip that switch back on. I. I'd be everywhere all the time, constantly.

Oh, yes.

I would live in it. Totally. 100%. I wish. We have a green screen room, sort of technically, could maybe be a little bit of a holodeck, but it requires, you know, computers. And then the only thing I don't get the experience of going, I just look like I go in a camera. It's not enough. So, you know, I'm working on building the data holodeck for everyone else. If somebody is out there, I'm gonna speak to the camera actually building a holodeck. Please hit me up. I will give you. You know, I will crowdfund you.

We already sort of have a holodeck. I mean, it's called tv, right? Coachella is live streaming this weekend. And I've been there. I've been in the front row. It ain't the same, right?

It totally is.

And even if the person in the front row is wearing a. Magically been capturing it, right? With a camera like this. And in volumetric ain't the same. It's never going to be the same.

This is true.

But the gap is going to start going from wide to narrow rice, and that'll be the next 10 years of our lives. After that, all bets are off. They're going to jack into our brains.

That's the real stuff.

So that's scary.

Yeah. No, I love that, though, that I want to be able to like you. So one of the biggest things for me that bothers me is it's like this bandwidth problem. All this stuff in my head. I have to go. It has to go through my fingers. I have to type to get it into the computer. Right. Like, what if I didn't have. What if I could just think it and it would appear and it's just there? Oh, my. Do you know how much more. More productive my life would be? That would be amazing. I would love that.

He's envisioning the bad VR that's going to come out of this.

You have to do that. And I will sell the tinfoil.

Ha.

Privacy was dead 10 years ago, dude.

What is privacy?

What is privacy? Yeah. Do you want to get in my head? All right.

Like, you can live there. Buyer beware, you know, you get what.

You'Re getting, but it's a bunch of bad doctor in my head.

I don't know.

Well, it's been fun hanging out with you. On that note, thanks. And thanks for me letting. Let me come and visit with you and talk about the enterprise space. It's a real interesting space. Factories and oil refineries and surgeries and stuff like that. Right. But visualizing data is going to be a real key part of this world.

Yes, absolutely.

Where do I learn more about bad VR?

Www.badbr.com Very cool.

Thanks.

Bye.