130 | From Employee to CEO: Transforming Culture Through Trust & Leadership | Jonathan Reed

Hello there and welcome to this episode of the Building Better Cultures podcast with me, Scott McInnes. Lovely to have you here. Thanks for listening. I really like going back through our archives. We've done about 125 episodes now, and I love going back through the archives and getting back to guests that we've had on before to find out what's been going on since. What's been happening with their culture, what's been happening in their organizations, what's changed, and how have they managed to handle that change from a people perspective. And one of the people that I loved chatting to back in July 2021, it was, it was episode 76 if you want to go back and have a listen, was Jonathan Reed, who wasn't the CEO of Paddy Scott's Coffee back then, but is the CEO of Paddy Scott's now. And I'm really looking forward to hearing what's been going on for the past 3 years. So Jonathan, good morning.

Hey, good to see you. Thank you for having me back on. It's nice to have the opportunity to maybe talk some more and answer some of your great questions beyond 3 years, I guess.

Yeah, yeah, no, it's been a while. So listen, for those people, shame on them, that haven't listened to our podcast from a couple of years ago, why don't you give us the quick 2 minutes on you and what you do? Introduce yourself to us.

Sure. So, uh, John Reed, based in the UK and the CEO of a lovely company called Paddy and Scott's Coffee. We're based in Suffolk, just on the East Coast, and we're forging this, uh, this path to try and really build a business and grow a business that puts people at the heart of it, but also a business that uses our commerce to help humanity flourish. So when we last spoke in 2021, I was an employee of the business and I still am, but now I'm also the proud owner of the business having gone through an MBO that concluded on the 12th of January this year at 6:32 in the evening. It's a time and a date that I will have ever etched in my brain. So we've had some fun since we last spoke, Scott, and I think part of the reason for the change of moving from a sort of employee to the owner of the business was really about how do we safeguard and cherish what we've built because at the time we'd had some advances from larger companies, PLCs, that were looking to acquire the business, and it just didn't feel right. So we kind of came out fighting and put a deal together ourselves, myself and my colleagues, to make that happen. So yeah, it's been a fun couple of years since we last spoke. We're still all about coffee, we're still about people, and we're all about making sure our business can support and add ambition to the communities that we work with around the world, places like Kenya, and Brazil and those nations that provide our coffee. So it's a business that I'm very proud of. And I suppose my career started in hospitality many, many moons ago where I wanted to be a hotel general manager, and we're still deeply entranced in that world of hospitality. And we think there's a lot that can be achieved with a humble cup of coffee, and we're pretty thankful that we're able to make a lot of things happen just with that cup of coffee. So it's a good place to be.

Brilliant, brilliant. We had a fairly candid conversation while we were thinking about this episode of the podcast, John, and you talked fairly candidly to me about the process of that MBO and the impact that had on you as a leader. Tell us a little bit about that.

Yeah, well, I guess the— I mean, I'd never gone through something like an MBO before. I'd never had any ambition really to run a business, to own a business, or really to be an entrepreneur until I kind of figured out what it was, what it meant, and the potential opportunity that came our way. So I think, I mean, in summary, going through that process was just exhausting. Taking a business, and the context I suppose is that let's say 2 years ago, Paddy Scott's Coffee as a coffee business in the UK was, was doing really well. I'd been there for 5, 6 years. I'd worked really hard, rebuilt a business that needed a lot of work along with my colleagues. We were really forging our path and doing some quite dynamic things in a good way. And sometimes when you're doing things differently and you're a little bit noisy and you're having some success, people find you. And we were found by a number of potential acquiring organizations that showed an interest, and they wanted a piece of the pie. And they came to the founder then, Scott, and said, okay, we're interested in buying your business. What does that look like? Is there an opportunity for a conversation to be had? And I think Scott, as the sole owner of the business really at the time, was quite open to it. So some of those conversations became more advanced, and then myself and my colleague Zoe as the management team got involved, and it was quite flattering, and we had the opportunity to join much bigger businesses and maybe play a bigger part in a bigger business that was more globally focused, and others as well that were interested, and then we we kind of reflected and we had a very honest conversation with each other and we said, "Is this what we want? Are we happy placing our careers in the hands of other people? And are we happy to take a risk that says everything we've done over the past few years to rebuild this business and turn it into something we're really proud of, are we happy to give those keys to somebody else?" And we came back to the answer that said, 'Well, why should we keep doing this for somebody else? Why should we be working this hard for someone else's gain? Wouldn't it make more sense if we could continue our path and create a business that was more focused on the individuals that traded with us, more focused on the individuals that worked for us?' And so really, out of a protective mechanism, really, we very quickly decided that we wanted to do it ourselves. So we had to deliver that sort of fairly negative news to the founder of the business and the sole shareholder that said, "We know you'd like to sell the business and you've had a really great offer and I'm afraid we don't wish to do it. It's not for us." So actually that was quite a difficult conversation. And because we're pretty good people at heart, we then felt a sense of sort of need to repair that damage. So we said, okay, well look, if we can't be part of that journey and we can't be part of that transaction because we don't want to, it's on us to find a solution. And that solution looked like us putting together a package to lead an MBO and to make sure that the shareholder could get the exit he was after. And we spent hours and weeks trying to find money, trying to raise investment, talking to the bank, talking to solicitors, investors, selling, and learning very, very fast. And in the end, we managed to get to that place that was, you know, pretty, pretty good for everybody, and we managed to conclude an MBO and raise several million pounds within a couple of weeks. So definitely a a career highlight, but equally also something that probably I'm still burnt out from now, some, you know, 11 months on.

When you think about that burnout that resulted from all the work that has to go into an MBO, the due diligence, the money, the stress, the wondering if it will happen and all of that, of course that takes you and I guess Zoe away perhaps from the day-to-day running of the business very much. And certainly I know from our previous conversation and some of your LinkedIn posts that I want to talk about later on, that that's really important to you. Being in the business is really, really important to you. It doesn't strike me that you're a helicopter CEO that sits in his ivory tower and just pops out occasionally. That stuff's really important to you. I wonder, What was the impact on the people in the organization? What was the impact on the culture of the organization for that 6-month period where you and Zoe just couldn't be there for the right reasons, but you just couldn't be there?

Yeah, well, I think it changed immeasurably. I think we, as you say, we were wrapped up with solicitors and accountants and due diligence. Everything and banks for 6 months leading up to deal conclusion. And it just meant we, we took our eyes off, off the business a little bit. And we're very lucky, we've got a fantastic team, and the guys that, that we work with were incredibly supportive. And I think hopefully they could see why we were doing it, and it's, you know, as much to safeguard their careers as ours. And I think it was, you know, a real commitment to that. However, I think when you look around and the person that you go to for answers or the person that you go to for a little bit of feedback or some cheerleading is around less, then it's not quite as enjoyable. So we didn't feel that at the time and I didn't feel it at the time, but when we got to January, we looked around and we're like, crikey, this is not the business that we had 6 months ago and the numbers weren't quite as good as we'd hoped they would be. And probably, you know, people's contribution wasn't quite where it would be, should be. And there was a few little niggles around that we really— you can only put down to just us taking our eyes off, off the ball and being so laser-focused on the other stuff. So, I mean, I don't think we became, you know, like a bad place to work overnight. I just think maybe some of the stuff that made us quite special in terms of the camaraderie and the teamsmanship and all that sort of stuff had just diluted. So we were pretty focused after January of making sure we could, we could right that wrong.

Yeah. And I think that what you said to me when we had the conversation was when we did the deal, I realized that I'd bought a business I didn't like. Tell me more about that.

Yeah, well, it's just so I mean, at the time I was knackered. So we concluded the deal in January '24. So Christmas was an absolute washout. So I'm sat there in January, having not had an awful lot of sleep in the months leading up to it, having just ruined Christmas for my family, I felt, not being very present. And, you know, although you might say I'd succeeded at delivering an MBO— fantastic, well done me— actually, the kind of collateral damage, I think, was quite significant in terms of my own energy. My, you know, the team didn't feel as supported. We weren't as current, as present with the team. And when I look back, it was like, yeah, well, hang on a minute, because I've not been around for 6 months, the business has sort of taken its own course a little bit and it's not quite as strong as it used to be. And that's not because of me, it's not because of Zoe. I just think it's because when you're as passionate about, you know, I love my work, I love this company. I'm so proud of what we've done and what we continue to do, that if you just take your eyes off it, even for a small amount of time, 6 months, people, by nature, because they want to be successful, they do their best. But sometimes if they don't have someone just on the edge, just coaching them, just giving a little bit direction, things go in slightly different directions. So it wasn't a lot not to like, it was just, oh crikey, a few decisions that, you know, I wasn't available to help people with had been made that I probably would have done a little bit differently had I been available. So it's all on me, and then it's about what do we do next? How do we glue this stuff together? How do we make sure people feel comfortable? Sadly for me, actually, the answer was, how do we move forward? The answer was, well, I'm now going to do about 25,000, 30,000 miles in my car over the next 6 months, making sure I talk to people, making sure I go and, you know, invest in people's energy, making sure they see the whites of my eyes. This is customers, this is team members, partners, and just make sure people understand why we've made this change. And how it can be positive for us all. So the, the relentlessness of it, if anything, dialed up post-Deal. It didn't reduce. So yeah, from a sort of physiology point of view, it, um, it was tough.

But maybe in knowing you from our couple of conversations, the, the relentlessness of that next 6 months was probably maybe an acceptable relentlessness because it was about people, because it was about getting in front of people, because it was about realigning people. And I think to your point there about perhaps, you know, people just wanted to do their best, people just making decisions that maybe weren't the ones you'd have made. You know, for me, the analogy I often use is, is, you know, a rowing team. You know, if you've got a rowing eight, you know, who's, who's nearly the most important person in the boat is the coxswain, is the person calling the stroke, is the person steering, is the person making sure that there's just little nudges here and there. Of course everyone's putting in their best, but if you've got the person in the number 1 seat or the number 4 seat aren't pulling in time with each other, that causes a huge problem. So getting out on the road was one thing that you did to fix that. What else did you do?

I think it was a lot of honest conversations with people, a lot of one-to-ones, and Probably the first thing we did actually was rewrite our strategy. So very quickly we got the leadership team together and we said, okay, we really appreciate everything you've given us over the past 6 months, but even longer than that, and, you know, we want to make this work with you and for you. So we're going to have this really collaborative approach now that says, what are we here to do for the next few years, and how can we make sure we're using everyone's individual skills to the best and how do we make sure that we can go on this journey together and that you feel part of it and that you get to influence it and own it, because that's really important to us. So, and it was lovely, I mean, to be honest, the feedback we had from the team was just really heartwarming post-MBO. It was really kind of, you know, supportive and everybody was, I think, grateful in terms of leadership team. Maybe not grateful, But I think people, yeah, were supportive and could see that me and Zoe taking a significant risk, you know, remortgaging your house, raising millions of pounds, signing contracts with the bank that said if it all goes to pot then it's on me, is a risk. Not many people would be willing to do that. So I think people kind of appreciated what we were doing. So it was just communication, really. That's what we did. It was communication. It was trying to rebuild trust, and it was get back involved and roll our sleeves up in the day-to-day of the business and be very visible and make sure that we were almost overly available to people and very present in the work.

Brilliant. And I think that idea of visibility and being overly available is something that's so overlooked in organizations that I often say to leaders that we might be working with, you know, you cast incredibly long shadows. I think when you know, if you're 10,000 people, it's harder, but it's not impossible to be out and about, to be having conversations, to be dropping into meetings, to go down and buy your own coffee at the coffee dock in the office rather than sending your PA down to do it for you, for example. But the idea of visibility, being available to answer questions is is so powerful, so, so powerful. Um, and I'd say you probably got that back in spades, did you, from the people you were talking to?

Yeah, I think so, I think so. Um, I mean, I think, you know, typically change is something that people by nature fear, and this was change. And don't forget, you know, the business had been owned and operated by, um, sort of one guy for 18 years. So if you've been in the business for a while then this was change. So we had to manage that. And I think the best way of managing it was just with complete honesty, complete transparency, and sort of gratitude, really. You know, we want to try and be good humans when we're at work. So, you know, I mean, I don't think it's that difficult, really. You try and treat people as you want to be treated. I think maybe one of the nicest things that we sensed and we felt post-deal was that we'd had people that had worked with us in the past, that had left come back and they said, "Oh, now that you're steering the ship, I want to be part of this journey with you," which was incredibly humbling because people buy people and there's loads of companies out there that people can go and work for. But when someone stops you in the street and says, "I want to come back," then I think you kind of feel like we must be onto something, we must be doing something right, because, you know, it's a really good look, frankly. So that was a nice little shot in the arm as well.

Amazing, amazing. But it's, you know what, it's funny, isn't it, that it's all those little things, you know, what might seem tiny and inconsequential that can make a real difference.

Absolutely, yeah, absolutely. And it's funny, we kind of So I'll give you the story. So Kit is the guy in question I'm talking about. Kit has worked for us for 3 times now. He just returned maybe a couple months ago, and he's the guy that kind of pulled me to one side and said, look, I heard you guys have bought the business and I want to be part of it. I'm excited. I love what you stand for. I love how you do things, and I want in again. And Kit joined. We found a job for him. We we created a job for him. And he's a lovely man. He's probably the kindest person in the entire coffee industry, I think. So we're very lucky to have him. When he joined, we kind of said, part of his onboarding plan, I said, Kit, just to level with you, I know you think we're here in the business of coffee and your passion is coffee. You're a bit of a, as you would call yourself, a coffee sado. But really, cards on the table, we're a people business. And we just happen to use coffee as our vehicle to do things with people. So I know you love coffee and I love coffee too, but really it starts and ends with people. So that was quite a nice conversation. And I think that resonates with most of our colleagues and our team, hopefully.

And if you think about that kind of reason for being that we're here for people, it's just that coffee is our vehicle, to use your words, What does the freedom of you now owning the business, what freedom does that give you to do that you mightn't have been able to do if you were part of that bigger PLC, if that had gone through?

Yeah, well, I don't know. I feel like when times are hard, and they are right now, people are struggling, aren't they? Companies are struggling. Every day you read the newspaper, you read the news, and there's another challenge or another curveball. If it— in the UK, if it's, I don't know, National Insurance contributions that are on the up, or it's minimum wage, or energy, or whatever you want to choose. It's tough, it's tough. And I think when times are tough, people often cut the things that are easiest to cut, and they take the path of least resistance. And I've been there. The difference now is that we can do it our way and we can take a slightly more long-term view. And rather than being obsessed by the immediacy of profit or the short-term focus on shareholders or earnings or whatever it may be, we can now make decisions that have a longer impact. And will maybe be more useful for the planet and the people we work with. So that freedom is really lovely actually, and frankly the biggest difference is we just have less bullshit in our world now and we get to make decisions collectively as a group, as a team, that we care about and we get to follow our heart. And you know, I think people sometimes think emotion in business is not good. I disagree, I disagree. I know from my perspective that some of the stuff that I've achieved in my life is— well, in fact, all of the stuff that I would put down as my greatest achievements in life have come from care, and because I really, really care enough. So why can't I selfishly go to work every day and do stuff I care about? Because I promise you now, if I can build that existence, then I'm going to do great work, and I'm going to, you know, hopefully give other people the ambition that says they can do the same and they can work on projects they care about and they can come to work with a smile on their face and it can be about more than just a pound note, which is really important.

I love that. Brilliant. Just building, building a business on care, building a business on being kind and doing the right thing. And I think what that results is, what that results in is, is creating followership among the people that work in an organization, isn't it?

I think so, yeah. I'm probably not the best example. I will sort of say I'm actually, I'm really not a very good people manager. I'm first to admit it's not my forte, you know. I'm kind of, I think I'm pretty comfortable being a coach, you know. I'm kind of, I'm a bit of a cheap cheerleader in many respects. You know, I love the idea that I get to go and work with people and communities and I can make them feel more brave and more ambitious about what they do, you know. That's a privilege to me. I love doing it. But if somebody wants to sit down with me and show me their spreadsheet and go through the detail of what they've been doing and their contribution and how does it map out against budget and targets and stuff, I'm not the guy. I'm not the guy. So it's about knowing, you know, what you're good at, what you're here to do, and where you can add the most value. And, you know, frankly, if I can build an existence that allows me to zoom around the world and make people feel more ambitious and more brave about what they're doing, then, um, then I think I'll sleep well at night.

Happy days. Happy days. Tell me about when you said there that one of your first jobs, other than doing 20 or 30,000 miles in your car, was to sit down with the management team and work out what our strategy is going to be. What did you then— because I think strategies generally can be incredibly boring and people would rather stick pins in their eyes. You know, the average employee would rather stick pins in their eyes than read a corporate strategy because they're not really ever written for, for the staff. So to make sure that everybody was back pulling in the same direction, to make sure that everyone understood what that strategy was and why you were doing what you've laid out, how did you do that? How did you bring that to life for staff across the organization?

Yeah, well, I think we tried to build it in a fairly collaborative sense. However, You know, what's the old saying from Henry Ford when he was developing cars? If you ask the average Joe on the street what they wanted from a car, they'd say a horse. So we didn't want to over-consult or, you know, give people too many options or too much thought. We had to agree at a top level what we were here to do. We'd built our manifesto 6 months prior, and that was a really clear clear outlook that said we're here to do 3 things: we're here to empower coffee farmers, look after people and the planet. So that's our kind of— that's our how, and now it's about the what. And for me, also whilst I was going through the MBA, I was also studying an MBA at university, which was also really useful, but again, more tough times, more like sleepless nights, more work I didn't have time for. And what I took from the MBA actually is is that strategy is two things. Strategy is about purpose and competitive advantage, and they're the two things that we had to nail down in terms of developing our strategy. Once we'd written it and we'd decided what the three things we were going to do in the short term, in the medium term, and long term, we then had to take that message to the business and we had to get people to support it, and we had to create fans internally that said, people are going to really help us drive this. So I don't think we did anything particularly unique or novel, but it was about, again, just really crisp communication and how can we bring people on this journey with us and what does the end look like and how can we also have a lot of fun along the journey. Because I think fun's really important as well. And, you know, something we're working on now as we edge towards 2024 is what '25 looks like in terms of people's contribution, in terms of what they want to work on. Probably the most important KPI we're going to give people next year is fun, because why the hell shouldn't we measure what people do in their work in relation to fun? It's as important as anything else, isn't it? I think.

It certainly is when you think about the world that you live and work in, which is bringing— when I arrive into a coffee shop, I don't want to see dour, sad-faced staff. I want to see people that are having a bit of crack, because that's going to lighten my day as well, potentially. And maybe the reason for me going in there is because I needed that bit of a lift. So I think absolutely, why not? And that leads beautifully into— because that was of course one of the posts that you put up recently on LinkedIn. And I love reading your posts because whether they are or they aren't, I suspect they probably aren't filtered, but it's just you writing what you think. It's just you sharing your thoughts and ideas. And I'm just, as I flick down here, you know, I'm looking at when you, you know, when Kit joined, who you mentioned earlier on, and you know, you went to him after a month in and said, you know, if we gave you 2 grand to leave, would you take it? To really test whether he wanted to be there, to really test whether he'd made the right decision, to really test whether you had made the right decision. And I think that's genius. You know, if I look at, you know, you put a post out there about 2025, the year of fun and your fun KPIs. I couldn't agree more. You put a post out there about, you know, Ben who came in for a job interview, didn't get the job, but then you helped him to actually set up his own business. And probably the one that really jumped out at me was about Bex joining and running Through Walls. And she has now become your head of humankind. Which I presume in the corporate world is a CPO. Head of Humankind. Where did that come from?

Well, it comes from our strategy, actually, that said, what are the key capabilities that we have as a business? One is coffee, one is brand, one is people. And then you look at who owns which of those capabilities, and we didn't have anyone owning people. Well, how the hell can we put so much emphasis on one pillar of our business and not have someone owning it? I mean, again, we're tiny, right? We're less than 50 of us, so you probably couldn't justify a head of people or a CPO, whatever, at a business our size. Until you go, no, but it's one of our core capabilities, so why would we prioritize a head of finance and not have a head of people if we're saying People is our, is our thing. So yeah, Bex is a tremendous person. Bex was running coffee shops for us and from day one just had this desire to coach people, to work with communities locally, to engage people, school leavers, people down on their luck, try and get them into work. This passion to give young people opportunity and we just thought, well, although that's not like a thing we're here to do as a business, we should value that in Bex and we should give Bex the stage to go and do that. So we did, and it's been remarkable ever since. So Bex is doing a super job. And actually, in terms of leadership, I feel like that's what we're here to do. You know, I love this phrase, I always use it, it's called unfair advantages. I think everybody that you meet has an unfair advantage somewhere. That thing that they just do so effortlessly and so easily that you look upon it and you go, gosh, if I, if I could do that thing as well as you, I'd be so, so delighted. But of course you can't because it's not yours, it's theirs. And I think life is about finding out what you, what you do easily that you love doing and sweating it really. So Bex, we wrapped up pretty quickly. Bex's unfair advantage was this thing about coaching and making people better, developing people. So damn right we want to give her a job that helps us do more of that in our business. Of course. We've got Jessie who rejoined Paddy Scott's about 12 months ago. Jessie was like an account manager. So in our wholesale business, we sell coffee to large hospitality, leisure, and retail organizations around the world, and we have account managers on the road. Jessie used to be one of those. Jessie went off to have a beautiful little daughter called Willow and came back and said, "Oh, I'd love to come back, but I don't think I want to be an account manager anymore. Is there anything that I could do that would be different?" And at the time, we were putting a lot of focus on social impact and how we can measure it, how we could track it, and how we could be more braver in terms of our impact. So we said, "Okay, Jessie, come back, you can be our head of purpose. You can hold us to account on what we say we're doing. Are we actually doing it? You know, in this world of greenwashing where people are always looking for opportunities to tear strips down, tear people down on doing good things, can you make sure we are whiter than white? Can you make sure everything we say we're doing, we are doing? So Jessie drives our sort of agenda when it comes to purpose, and we're so lucky to have Jessie. She's the most incredible human. She's a trained counselor, and Jessie took two other colleagues, Neil and Chrissy, out to Kenya 3 or 4 weeks ago and is working on the most incredible projects that I've ever seen. You know, we've got the farm that we buy from a family in Kenya, comes from a place called Meru, just north of Nairobi, and within that community there are 3 schools that neighbor the farm. We're now doing incredible things in the schools. I think when we, you know, when we, when we spoke last time, Scott, we probably funded around 20,000 school meals in, um, in coffee growing regions. We're now up to about 425,000 school meals. And now that Jesse's here, I have every intention and every, every belief that we'll, we'll double that next year, which is incredible, um, because that stuff's really important to us. So when these guys went to Kenya, it's not just about coffee, it's not just about school meals. They're talking to, you know, children in schools and they're kind of asking really challenging questions and pointed questions about things like period poverty and what happens at the moment in the girls' boarding school when a young lady, you know, has a period for the first time. Turns out they think they're bleeding and they think they're going to die and there's nowhere to talk to. We don't have conversations around that sort of stuff in Kenya. It's not a subject that's talked about in school. So these poor girls, you know, are scared and they're then making decisions in a panicked sense about what they're going to do next. And they're going to the doctor in the hospital, but there's no support. So we can help them with that. You know, we're about fueling ambition. That's our mantra. It's what we're here to do. So how can we use coffee as a vehicle to to give those incredibly talented boarding school children more ambition, and that's what we're doing. So when the three guys were over in Kenya last week, they were putting together plans to support a group of people coming together to, to make reusable sanitary products, putting these dignity packs together and then taking them into the boarding school and doing the education bit and making sure the community and families were engaged and, you know, comfortable and supportive, and trying to make sure these guys and gals have a better existence, all because of coffee, which is something we're incredibly proud of and something we just wouldn't have done had Jessie not come back into our life and had we not recognized that her talent is not in commercial, you know, capitalist account management stuff, it's in making the world a better place. So how lucky are we to have Jesse back?

And what a great, what a great person to own that project.

Hmm, I don't think you'd ever see a job description or a job advert for a head of purpose, and we wouldn't have come across it or designed it if we didn't have Jesse. So I think there's a lot to be said for, you know, um, giving people space and opportunity to craft their own roles And this is that stuff we call ikigai, isn't it? You know, what can you do that you love, that the world needs, that you can get paid for? Brilliant. If we can operate a business that gives people the true opportunity to tick all of those boxes, then surely, surely the output is just a really great business that's doing good things, doing good numbers, and everyone's happy.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. Yeah, and I know I've said that 50 times in this conversation today, but everything you're saying, I'm just literally nodding and smiling. Tell me, we're near the end, sadly. I mean, I could talk to you all day, John, and we'll maybe do it, we'll do it over a pint sometime if you're in Dublin, as I said earlier. But what's next on the journey for Paddy and Scott's? You're, you know, you're nearly 12 months, nearly 12 months at the reins. What's next?

Well, I think we've got a few more years to go. I think what's lovely is that we are now being approached by really big organisations that I think— I don't want to say admire what we do, but I guess they do. I guess they like the honesty. I think people recognise the time is now to try and do some, you know, do responsible small commerce, try and do things a bit differently. And I think the world, you know, is more likely to change and is more likely to repair itself if we see entrepreneurship as, you know, as a really good vehicle for that. And we're happy to do it. So we're going to grow. I don't think that growth is defined by money, unfortunately. Don't tell my shareholders. I think we're gonna do stuff with any more school meals, we're gonna do more impact We're going to try and shake up the coffee industry even more so. We love the idea that we can drive this wave of direct trade where we can take people out of the supply chain, where we can make sure that rather than having 30 people involved in the supply of coffee, we can really just have 2 or 3 people involved, and we can make sure the farmer at the start of the coffee journey gets a much fairer price for their crop. We can do lots of good stuff. And we can, you know, I think keep building on that. And then in the future for us, who knows, who knows. I mean, selfishly, my plan has always been to get to a place where I've got a little bit of freedom in terms of my decision-making process, and that looks like hopefully the ability to spend more time doing stuff I care about. And maybe I could have a portfolio career, I could have 4 jobs, maybe let's say 4 4 NED roles, 2 of which are paid for, and maybe those 2 are paying me to give— have the freedom that I can go and do 2 other NED roles, so 4 in total. And the sort of unpaid work will invariably, you know, build my heart, give me a chance to go and make a difference, and make me feel really happy about my existence whilst I still get to go and do some stuff that's commercially going to pay for that opportunity. So I think that's what I want to be doing, and You know, let's see, let's see. I think where we are as a world is quite interesting. I don't know if you look around the landscape a lot, but it seems to me like there's a real lack of difference out there. I heard the phrase recently called the— we exist in a blandemic, which was lovely, where, you know, everything is the same. Every big company is making the same decisions, recruiting the same sort of people. And everything looks the same, sounds the same, smells the same, and I don't think that's great for the planet. So how do we get past this blandemic? I think it needs bravery and it needs a real people-centric approach, and we've got to give people platforms and stages to be themselves and to not conform all the time. You know, I think there's an awful lot of people paid to toe the line and make safe decisions. I'm not sure that's great for the world. So we're going to keep trying to fight that if we can.

And I think that's a wonderful place to leave our conversation, Jonathan, with that challenge out to listeners about what are you doing that's different? What are you doing to be brave? What are you doing to really make change happen? And what are you doing not to be bland? And I think that's a great, great challenge and a great question that perhaps we should all be sitting down and asking ourselves and writing a wee list. To have a little think about over the next 12 or 24 months. It's been a joy having you back on, John. I've really enjoyed the chat. I've really enjoyed the catch-up. Congratulations on the continued success of Paddy and Scott's Coffee and the amazing work that you're doing in Africa and further afield. So listen, I've really enjoyed the chat. Thanks a mill.

Thank you. Enjoyed it.

Okay. Done. Thank you. That was great. Love that. Ahead of purpose.

Genius. Yeah. Unfortunately my mind moves in different directions. So a lot of the stuff that I've just said to you, I didn't plan to talk about. I've got written down, not got written down in front of me, but hey, that's probably what you like as well, isn't it? That's good.

Yeah, no, that's why it's just having the chats is great.

Agile approach to questions and answers.

Yeah, totally. Right. Talking about dynamic and agile approach to questions and answers. Let me, do these quickfire 3 questions really quick before we wrap up. Um, so literally give me just like, not a one-worder, but like a 10 or 20-second answer would be great. Um, so I'll just, I'll just do them one at a time. You answer and I'll come in with the next question then. What is the most important skill for a people leader to really hone?

Vulnerability. For me, I think it's really important for people to see others make mistakes, to see their leaders say sorry, to admit they're not perfect, and to show vulnerability. Because I think if you show vulnerability, you attract vulnerability in others.

When it comes to building strong and aligned cultures, where should organizations focus most?

I think strategy. I think strategy. I think it's fascinating to think about who your competitors are when it comes to culture. Often that's not going to be people or organizations from within your same segment, market, or sector. So let's think about it strategically and say, okay, if we're trying to build a great culture, who do we need to look upon for ideas and who are we competing with for talent, for culture, all that sort of stuff?

How can organizations connect with their people in a way that's a little bit more human?

By fighting the urge to cut corners at every opportunity, by fighting the urge to use technology, by fighting the urge to look upon AI as some sort of silver bullet. Because although we recognize productivity enhancement is really important, every decision we make that is towards artificial intelligence is probably a step we're taking away from humans Super job.

Thank you very much. We were going to try and we, I was literally forcing to get these out before Christmas and then I was looking at it and going, but if we get to a point where we put one out in the middle of November, that means literally the last one's going out on Stephen's Day, which to me doesn't seem a lot of sense. So we're going to bump these and we're going to put the first one out on the 9th of Jan. So they'll go out in, in January and early Feb. Yeah.

Nice. Well, just let me know if you need anything from me. I think I probably need to send a photo or something, I guess, or a blurb or something. I didn't see that.

Yeah, Sandra is just after a picture.

When it comes out. Yeah, when it comes out, it'd be great if you'll obviously, I'm guessing, you'll listen to it. And if there's anything that sounds particularly edgy or controversial or something, then that's often a good place to start in terms of trying to get people to listen to the pod, isn't it? So Maybe if you have the opportunity to tell me anything that jumps out as a controversial bit or a sort of left-field random approach or something, then maybe I can take that and chuck it into a post so you get some engagement as well.

Great stuff. Yeah, perfect. And what I'll do is I can even share you. I can even share you beforehand. Actually, let me just stop the