134 | How ESG Shapes Workplace Culture | Engagement, Inclusion & Neurodiversity | Lorna McAdoo

Hello there and welcome to this episode of the Building Better Cultures podcast with me, Scott McInnes. Thanks for joining us. Lovely to have you here for the next 30 or 35 minutes. Before we get going, just my usual little ask. It is really helpful if you are in Apple Podcasts or Google or Stitcher or wherever you are. Please take literally the 10 seconds it takes to give us a 5-star review, or 4 is also fine, and maybe a wee comment about what you like about the podcast because it really does help to get it out there. So that's my usual wee ask over. Delighted today to be joined by Lorna McAdoo, who is the head of ESG and Northern Ireland at Version 1. Hello, Lorna.

Hello, Scott.

Is that it?

That's it for now. I'm warming up.

And as we said a second ago, it is Monday. Yeah, Listen, we've got you warmed up. Why don't we let you warm up a little bit more by telling, telling listeners maybe a little bit about you, about your career, about Version 1, about your role?

Yeah, absolutely. So, I've been in Version 1 for about 10, 11 years now, heading up— originally came in to build up the Northern Ireland office because we had just opened an office here., and then in the last 2 or 3 years I've had a real focus on around ESG, environmental social governance. Prior to that, I worked in the tech sector for over 30 years. I know that's really hard to imagine, but it has been that long. Yeah, um, thank you, Scott. You're welcome. Um, yeah, working across the tech sector, I was pretty much primarily a delivery manager all that time, so delivering projects into private and public sector across UK and Ireland. I'm a Fermanagh girl, born and bred, moved to university in the early days and really never went back, primarily because all the work is in Belfast and that's where all the biz is as well.

Yeah, have you spent your entire career in and around Belfast?

I have, yeah.

Okay.

Now I've done a lot of traveling with work over into the UK when I worked with Kainos and into the south when I did a little bit of contracting work for myself.

Great. We're going to get on to ESG later, because that's obviously a big, as, as your title suggests, a big part of your job. But where I like to always start these conversations is around culture. So, I'd love to understand from you what your perspective on culture is, and how you nurture the right culture for your people and for your business.

So I guess for me it's— it has started from a personal perspective. So when you've worked this length of time across the tech sector, or any industry for that matter, you know the environments you work really well in, okay? And those have always been the organizations that have had a really solid culture, primarily based on values. And I've probably struggled in the larger organizations where it's quite bureaucratic to get things done. So when I started in Version 1 in NI, the one thing I wanted was a culture that I enjoyed working in, but that everybody that joined us in Version 1 would enjoy as well. And it's a culture primarily based around not just our core values in Version 1, but more around our respect for each other and building an environment of trust where everybody looked out for each other. So I had a motto from day one that if someone beside you is having a bad day, go and get them a cup of coffee, um, because that could be you tomorrow. And I think that, that certainly in the early days, as we were very small, really nurtured a really lovely, lovely family environment, I think, and culture. So culture for me is hugely important. It's what makes people excel in their job.

Yeah, yeah. And I think it's always really interesting that in organizations we look to the organization to set and create and build and nurture the culture. But what's, what's the, what's the responsibility of maybe line managers and employees when it comes to doing those same things?

So I think like for me, culture is on the ground, okay? A board of directors can't create a culture. Okay, they can imagine what the culture of that organisation might be nice and what it might look like, but actually it's the people on the ground, they're the ones to shape that environment, particularly if you've got an organisation where you empower your people to bring that enthusiasm and wanting to get involved in everything to do with the office. So for us in Belfast, a lot of the work that we did was around engagement. And that was around getting people on the ground to shape that in terms of what was it that they wanted to do, what was it the things that they collectively wanted to change, or maybe do something new, or whatever that might be. So that could have been around health and wellbeing initiatives, it could have been just having a bit of fun, it could have been about sharing experience with each other, learning new skills together, it could have been a whole host of things, but that in itself drives a culture for me. And that helps then to, I guess, shape the thinking for line managers and executive teams as well. But it's certainly, for me, it starts at the ground, it's shaped at the ground, and the best organizations allow that to happen.

But of course also, and I think you kind of mentioned it there in passing, you know, directors can imagine the culture that they need, and of course that is something that certainly from my perspective, organizations should be doing. I think that idea that, you know, we need to make sure that we're all pulling in the same direction so that we're not wasting time and effort and money and resources and hours and all that kind of stuff, that leaders do do that, that they are there saying, well, you know, in order to achieve the strategy that we want to achieve, here's the culture that we need to have. It was interesting, I read a piece yesterday and that old thing about culture eats strategy for breakfast, which apparently Drucker actually never said. It's an urban myth, but we still keep I'm saying it all the time. But equally then, the same person in the same post said, but, but strategy— I'm sorry, culture goes hungry without strategy. So if you don't know what it is you're actually doing, then arguably you don't need a culture because there's nothing to do.

Yeah, completely agree.

Yeah, yeah. Um, tell me a little bit about your ESG strategy. You're obviously head of ESG, that's a big part of your role. How does version 1 I suppose, first of all, actually, what does that look like globally from a version 1 perspective? And how do you then bring that to life for people on the ground? Because you work across a lot of countries, right?

Yeah, we do. We do. We're global. So across UK, Ireland, Spain, Scandinavia, India, US, Australia. So yeah, really different.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So how does that— how, what is, what does your ESG kind of strategy look like globally? And then how is that brought to life in each of the, in each of the regions that you work in?

Yeah, I think from, for certainly from my perspective, I struggled at the very outset when I was asked to take on ESG. Um, back then I had no clue what ESG stood for. Environmental piece, dead easy, everybody talks about the climate change and net zero and so on, so I think that's very, very easy. Um, but I really struggled with it from a context of we're a technology company, so how much can a technology company actually do to impact things like the climate. Okay, and I think for us what we did was we took a lot of time out to understand what we did as an organisation. And back to Scott, what you said earlier about strategy— what is our strategy? Where were we going as an organisation? And then how did we make that applicable to not just version 1 but the people in version 1? Because there's no point in having an ESG strategy if people don't understand, A, what ESG is, and B, what does that really mean for them. Okay, and if you're a software developer or a business analyst, or maybe you're somebody just starting out as a grad and just arrived into V1, it's— we needed to be able to make that real to them. Okay, so we spent a lot of time, but what we ended up fundamentally doing is we established a corporate ESG strategy, but then we set up volunteer teams in each of the regions. So we have an ESG volunteer team in India, everywhere, UK, Ireland, and that team basically, as I said, is a group of volunteers that come together and we create themes on the back of our strategy. So for instance, um, this, this quarter, um, there's a theme from the environmental side of travel, okay? So looking at all things travel, so whether that's traveling to work or maybe it's even in your personal life, and the travel plans that you're making right now for the summer holidays. But what we ask then of each of the regional teams is to think of the— of that in the context of their region and then look at how they could run an event or an initiative that would drive almost informally that thought process. Okay, and that does change from region to region. So, you know, a really good example I give is We could do a cycle to work scheme in the UK and Ireland, but you can't do it in Bangalore in India. Okay. So then we had to look at, well, what does that really mean for India? Okay. And what are some of the things that we could do there that would help people to understand that these are simple things that you can do corporately within your work in version 1, or it could be in your personal life as well, but to really— it's an education and awareness as much as anything else. But we run events and initiatives to get that engagement going, but that people can have a bit of fun, and it gives them an opportunity to meet people outside of their teams as well.

Yeah, and I love it. Sorry, go on.

So particularly in the like of Bangalore, where, where it's very remote working, okay, um, and they might never get a chance to actually meet up in some cases, but some of the events we run are remote events, so you actually do end up connecting whether it's through Teams or maybe socially doing step challenges, for instance, you still get that connection.

Do you think you get the engagement that— I know I sound like old father time— the engagement that we used to get pre-COVID when we were back in the office? Do you still get the same quality of engagement, do you think? Because I mean, there's many organizations that are really struggling, I think, with the post-COVID ways of working, and lots and lots of senior leaders who think that the answer is kind of the mandated return to office. Let's 'Let's get everyone back in 5 days and the culture is going to be amazing again.' And I think you and I probably know that I don't think that's necessarily the case.

No, and it's not. And I think certainly from my perspective, I would prefer to have people coming into the office because there's a real reason and a real desire to do that. And I think particularly with ESG, we've been able to create events that are really, really making people keen to come back in, even if it's only for one day a month or whatever it might be. But for that month, It's there for connection, it's there for engagement, and it, it has started to work. Are we getting the same quality? Probably not. We're probably still struggling, as any other organisation, to, to get to the point where it was pre-COVID. But I don't think you'll ever get back to pre-COVID, even mandating it. I think you need to get to a point where there are real reasons why you think they need to be back in the office, and you create an environment that whenever they're back in their office that you're making the most of it. So, you know, there's no point in having someone in the office if they're going to sit in Teams calls all day. You could do that at home.

Yeah.

So you have to make real reasons and give them opportunities to step away from the Teams calls and do them face-to-face, maybe those meetings, or maybe look at engagement across all the teams.. But yeah, you have to drive it from that perspective.

Yeah. One of the things, when we met for coffee there the other week in Belfast, you were telling me about your in-office days that you have once a month where you do different things for people with different needs or different wants. Tell us a little bit about that.

Yeah, so it's something quite early in its setup. So what we are doing is we normally have quarterly days that we call hub days, and that's the day that the quarterly briefing is run on. So we would have always invited everybody in that day to listen to the briefing live in the office, and then we would put on a bit of lunch for them. But what we have now done is changed that so that we're actually going to do meetups in the morning. We've our first meetup next week, which is an AI type meetup because we're running an AI month at the moment. So we'll have that made up in the morning. We'll invite all the techies together, talk about AI. We'll have guest speaker brought in, um, and we'll do that over breakfast. And then we'll do the quarterly briefing at lunchtime again with lunch. And then in the evening we'll do a social event. So what we're trying to do is, for the people that want to have fun, there will always be the social event. For the people that are technical or maybe have a particular interest in Java or AI, or maybe they're delivery managers, or whatever that interest might be that they share, and there's a common, common piece there. We will run something like that in the morning, and that allows that engagement piece. We're going to run that on the last Thursday of every month, so that will become a regular thing that everybody can put that into their diary and know that's the day that I would like to be in the office. But again, it's back to the giving them real reasons to be in the office, and what are they going to get out of it personally. Okay. So yeah, we're, we're, we're running that in Belfast. And hopefully if that works, we'll start to roll it out then across some of the other regions.

It's interesting that it is that being a bit more deliberate, we're going to do this for these types of people, we're going to do this for these types of people, we're making it a day. I was out with a client last week, and they were saying that they started to do kind of bimonthly, everyone come into the offices. But actually, what's happened is they did one. And then the more senior people started going, oh, well, I can't do that date. And I can't do that date. And I can't do that date. And I can't do that. And they've now done— they've now not done any more. 'What do you think that says about the culture in the organization?' 'Well, that we're really hierarchical and the people at the top think they're more important than anybody else.' I said, 'Yeah, yeah, just because they can't be there, why does that mean that an in-office day shouldn't happen?' Yeah, absolutely.

And again, it's about culture and it needs to come from the ground, you know, and giving people the opportunity. Like, those topics that we're creating on a monthly basis, they're not me, I'm not deciding them, and the senior managers aren't deciding them. We want to listen to the people in those teams with those interests and hear what they would like to, to come together and talk about. So they're very much driving that.

Yeah, I think the general consensus is that whilst we don't need everyone back in the office 24/7, 365, actually there is a lot of benefit to be gained from people being in the office. And as you said there, as long as we're deliberate about it, if we're learning from each other, as long as we're not coming to the office and we're not sitting on Teams calls all day, were able to do the get-together stuff and the brainstorming and the lunches and all that social connection that is actually quite important. There are still lots of people that I see who just are really, really resisting coming back at all. Now, I think that's quite damaging for culture. I'm actually an advocate of a couple of core days in the office, a couple of anchor days, as long as they're well managed. What do you— how do organizations get those people to come back in for the greater good of the company, the organization, and the teams that they sit in?

I think the more you can do at a team level and the more you can encourage groups of people to come in and when they're actually learning or whether they're connecting, but if they're having fun and they keep coming in, then eventually most people will get to a point where they'll go, well, I need to be in because everybody else is in and I'm missing out. And I think that's the point you have to get it at. There will always be people even in our own organisation who even pre-COVID wouldn't have come into the office at all for any particular reason, and that's fine, and it has worked for them. They're still very much engaged and feel they belong in V1, but for those that really need the social piece and the interaction and that collaboration, then it's important that we do what we can to encourage everybody in.

Yeah. So you just create the environment and the opportunity and then hopefully people come.

Exactly.

Yeah. Yeah. I had, I remember I ran an event back in 2019 with Pedro Angulo from AIB, who's a friend, pal of mine. And we had a panel at the end and one of the panelists was saying, you know, during change, the one big thing that we learned, and of course all this is change, we're still going through change. The big thing that I learned was we definitely had a chunk of people who were on the bus. They were good to go. Let's do it. Let's get it done. There were a chunk of people on the stairs of the bus who were like, "Maybe, maybe not." And there were a chunk of people sitting at the bus stop, arms folded in the rain. "I'm not getting on the bus." And she said, "We spent way too much time focused on the people at the bus stop when actually, to your point, we should have focused on the people on the bus." People on the steps may then have gotten on and the people at the bus stop are going, looking in the window and going, "Hmm, what's going on in there? That looks like, yeah, it looks a bit more interesting than sitting out in the rain." Yeah, that's exactly it. Yeah, yeah. Back to ESG, and, and you said this yourself, the E is, is kind of easier because we understand climate change, we understand the planet, we understand the fact that we're getting miserable weather in June and July. Not that that's abnormal in Ireland, uh, but look, you know, it is what it is. Um, but I think we can get our, we can kind of get our hands around that one, get our arms around that one. Social, maybe a little bit more. Governance Probably quite a lot less because I don't think people really understand what the role of people in organizations actually is. So I wonder, how do you go about making ESG part of the day-to-day? What are some of the practical things that you can do so that people in organizations kind of feel it? And it's not because this is— it's not just Version 1 that has to have an ESG strategy. Everyone does. We know there's reporting coming, European reporting requirements coming. That mean that every organization is going to have to report on it. So what can organizations do to try and work the idea of ESG into BAU, or just the way we do things around here?

Yeah, I think, like, again, the early days for us, I really struggled with ESG, okay? And one of the things that I also struggled with, even when we had the strategy, was how do we now get this out into the organization and and educate them or make them aware of what ESG is and why we're doing it. I actually think for us the real success for ESG for us is those volunteer teams, because they are the people in the regions who understand ESG for what it means to them, and they've been able to translate it for us on the ground. Okay, now Those teams on a regional level meets monthly. There's events that run all the time on one or two of those pillars. So like I said, could be environmental, health and well-being, or Community First, which is our CSR initiative in the fundraising and volunteering. But those events are running all the time, but they're very clearly labeled as ESG events. So when someone sees those events coming into their diaries, or they see news articles coming out about some of the things that we've been doing, it's all very clearly labeled as ESG. So everybody understands now what that ESG actually looks like and what it means. And in, in some ways, ESG has almost taken over from employee engagement. Um, and I think that's maybe a good thing because it's, it's more meaningful when you talk to people on the ground, you will always find people who have a real passion for diversity and inclusion, or you'll have people who have a real passion for health and well-being. So whether that's mental health or physical health or whatever it might be, or you might find people who just love to volunteer for charity and actually do charity work outside of, outside of their work. And we've encouraged them to bring that back in and allow other people in the organisation to help volunteer for them as well. So you'll always find that passion, and it's finding that passion. And once you find that passion, get them involved in those volunteer groups. And that seems to have not just created that culture of giving back, but it's, it's that connection as well. They're constantly connecting with people outside of their teams as well. So it's quite subtle, but, and actually, after 3 years of, of ESG, I'm a little surprised at how much ESG has actually cemented our values as an organisation and our culture as well. It has really helped to do, to do it. And any organisation that hasn't yet embraced ESG, I absolutely would, and not as a tick-boxing exercise, because you're right, there are reporting regulations that you have to, um, certain size of organisations have to do, but don't make it a tick-box exercise because actually when you step back and look at how that can be applied and at a ground-up level, it can be a very powerful tool when it comes to culture and culture building.

And equally, if you choose to do the ESG washing, let's just give it a name, you actually potentially do more damage to your employer brand than good. You do more damage to your culture than good because people are going, oh, we say we're doing these things, but actually, are we doing them?

Yeah, yeah. And there's like version 1, great ESG strategy. There's loads that we want to do and loads that right now we're not doing. Okay, let's face it, we're not perfect when it comes to the ESG world, but what we do have is an intent to be very good at it. Um, and a lot of the work that we've done tonight shows and demonstrates that commitment, and a lot of the work that we want to do in the coming years we'll emphasize it even more. But there's— I don't think as an organization when it comes to ESG you ever stand still and say I've done it all.

Well, the context around you is changing all the time, isn't it? So, you know, so you do one thing, something else changes. You do something else, something else changes. So that constantly changing and evolving context means you have to be on your toes all the time, I presume.

Yeah, absolutely. And that's again where the volunteer teams come in really handy because actually they make you stop and think. Because they'll ask questions like, should we not do this, or should we not do that? And that makes you stop and think and go, well, actually, yeah, we should, you know, as an ethical organization, yes, we should.

I love the example you gave when we met there the other day, last, a few weeks ago, um, for coffee, when you talked about the, the cycle to work scheme. And, and most big organizations have a cycle to work scheme, but yours has now gone on to become a cycling club.

Yes, yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah.

So about bringing people together.

Yeah, that's exactly it, and they've got that connection now, and we've got people who will come in on their bikes and go out at lunchtime for a cycle around Belfast, and actually we're looking at the Belfast Bikes to see if there's a way in which we can encourage even those that haven't brought their bikes in to be able to take those and, and go for a cycle at lunchtime, and again you're improving people's mental health as well, not just their physical health.

Yeah, for sure. You mentioned it there a second ago about how ESG— and you, you've only kind of started getting into it in the past few years— but how that can really contribute to the culture that you want. How does it contribute practically to the culture that you want to have in the organization?

I think that it's very, it's very subtle, Scott. Okay, but I can see in all of the regions, I can see the people that volunteer in ESG, but also the people that turn up to those events. It's, it's just creating that connection piece, and it's very subtle. And some would say, well, is it ESG? But it's ESG that's running all those events and all those initiatives. So actually, if we didn't have an ESG strategy, we would probably be still organising events and initiatives, but not, not that are translatable, or, or you can say actually that's to do with that strategy, or that's linked to a strategy. So it's back to what you said at the very start, is actually culture needs strategy as much as strategy needs the culture. Okay, and that's a real example of it. We could have a great ESG strategy, but without the volunteers, we don't— we wouldn't be able to create the culture we have. And without that culture on the ground, it wouldn't make our ESG strategy stand up.

And of course, that link and label is incredibly powerful because then when other organizations are being seen to do a little bit of greenwashing or a bit of ESG washing, that we're— you're saying, actually, well, no, we've done these 10 things and they're directly linked back to our environmental policy, our social policy, what we're doing around governance, or whatever it might be. So you've got proof there to show that that is what's actually happening.

Yeah, absolutely. And I have to say, one of the things that I really don't like is showing up at ESG conferences and having people saying, we need to do this, or we have to do that. It should be a case of, we want to do this, because it's for all the right reasons.

Yeah, well, it's first— it's for the risk of sounding a bit, a bit too big, it's for everybody on the planet. So if we all did a little bit more, uh, you know, if I could get my children to switch off lights when they leave rooms That'd be, that'd be a nice start. Yeah, if we could all do that, there'd be a lot less electricity used. Um, I want to go a slightly different direction for the last few minutes, and I want to talk a little bit about neurodiversity. And I know that, you know, we had a really good chat about how perhaps there's a need to rethink workplaces to welcome people with neurodiversity and to benefit from people with neurodiversity, and for them to benefit from the organizations that they work in. What are your thoughts on that and what can organizations practically do?

I think that there are some organizations that I'm aware of, particularly in Northern Ireland, um, that are doing brilliant stuff when it comes to neurodiversity and employability. Okay. Um, Version 1 is a long way to go on this. All right. But we are very typical of a lot of organizations and it's one thing that I am hugely passionate about is that Our neurodiversity pool of talent will continue to grow year on year, okay, and as organizations there's no point in sitting and complaining that the talent pool's not there. The talent is there, we just need to become a lot more flexible in the way in which we approach our talent pools and the neurodiversity will be a massive talent pool for us. They're extremely intelligent, and extremely capable of senior roles in organizations and are actually holding down very senior roles as well, because I know quite a few people who are neurodiverse and are senior execs in companies. But we just need to create and open that door and the opportunity for others to, to follow in their path. And so, you know, version 1, we are looking at what we can do, we're looking at how we can partner to make this happen, um, because we can make it happen quicker if we collaborate with organizations that have either been doing it for a lot longer or with organizations that enable it to happen.

And the idea that— and it's really interesting you said there that, you know, a couple of senior execs you know are neurodiverse. Often We don't even know. It's invisible. And yeah, it's a very, very interesting area. Why do you think organizations and leaders are not necessarily— maybe shying away from it is a little unkind on organizations, but why aren't they taking advantage of this pool of resource? What's getting in the way? What are the barriers?

I think, to be perfectly honest, I don't think organizations are shying away from it. Okay, I think organizations are doing what they've always done. They've gone— they go to the talent pools and they recruit from the same places they always have. Okay, so that is either going to your universities or your colleges, okay, or it's going looking for your experienced staff, okay. But there are so many other talent pools out there, and I think that's all that, that it is. It's just that that's the way we've always done it, that's the way every organization has always done it. That's the talent pools that we look at and we engage really heavily with the universities and that's the way, yeah, it has always been. So it's breaking down those barriers of, um, of let's think outside the box and let's look at what we can do and it's not just neurodiverse as well, you know, we need to be flexible and with our flexibility, our work flexibility model as well because There's so many women and men out there who are carers to children, who are carers to their parents, and they would love to have work and they could work, but we just need to create the flexibility around that. And I think every company needs to do it, every organisation needs to do it, and those that are doing it needs to sing and shout about it because that's how we will learn from each other.

And what do you think is— so what's getting in the way of a leadership team doing that, of taking advantage of— or not take, that's the wrong terminology— of benefiting from and in turn benefiting people that need more flexible working, people that are neurodiverse? What's stopping them?

I think that there's, you know, this is a conversation now that is happening everywhere. It's happening in every organization. And I think there is definitely an awareness there. I know from Northern Ireland Marketplace that, you know, there's a lot of organizations out there who are looking at the skills piece and looking at how companies can come together and collaborate and look at best practices and what support models and so on needs to be put in place. So there's a lot of work happening out there, and actually I was tuned into BBC News this morning, there was a big article on it around autism, actually. So, you know, this isn't a new headline, it's not a new story, but companies are becoming a lot more aware that this is what they need to be doing now.

Okay, I can't believe we've been talking for half an hour, that went so quickly. Last question for you, and it's the one that I finish generally many of the podcasts with. 30 seconds, what's the most impactful thing organizations can do to build strong and aligned cultures, do you believe?

Listening to their people. Just listen to your staff and set up, organize, set up small groups of encouraging them to come together and think about what would help them to create an environment of support and create an environment in which they can excel.

Brilliant. Lorna, been an absolute pleasure having you on the podcast. Thanks so much for joining me, really appreciate it.

No problem, thanks Scott.