143 | Why Workplace Disconnection Is Costing You More Than You Think | Kevin Empey & Susie Leacy

Hello there and welcome to this episode of the Building Better Cultures podcast with me, Scott McInnes. To have you back if you've been a listener before, or you're very welcome if you're a first-timer. I'm horrified, but it's lovely to have you here. Thanks for joining. Very, very quick ask that I always do at the beginning of each of these episodes. Please, as you're listening, if you like it, give us a little review. If it's a 4 or 5-star review, all the better. And a little comment really helps. We do put a good bit of time and effort into pulling these together. So it does really help to get the content out there in front of more people. So very, very much appreciate that. Today is the last of this podcast series where we're going to be talking about Challenge 5 of our Mind the Gap research report. If I forget to mention it later, which I probably will, if you want to download it, you can get that at inspiringchange.ie/mindthegap, all one word. But this, as I say, was the fifth challenge in our findings, and it was around this idea of disconnection. The idea that perhaps now the way in which we work has resulted in people feeling disconnected from their organizations, their teams, their work, and vice versa. Organizations feeling disconnected from their people and perhaps worrying and thinking about the impact that's having on culture, on ways of working, and on performance. And while some are happy to continue with the "let's just see how flexible working goes," Others, as we know from the media, both near home and far away, are starting to hit a nuclear button. And either that's a big giant nuclear button of just get everyone back in the office 5 days a week, or it's a very slightly smaller nuclear button where it's, well, let's move from 2 days to 3 days or 3 days to 4 days. So we'll get into some of that hopefully later with our 2 amazing guests today, who are Susie Lacey, who is the Chief People Officer in Cluid Housing, and Kevin Empie, who is no stranger to this podcast. I think this is his second or third go around, who she is the Head of Future of Work Strategy and Solutions in Loughborough. Good morning, both of you. How are you getting on?

Good morning, Scott.

Thank you for having us along.

You're very welcome. Listen, I never do guests the disservice of introducing you. I think you do a much, much better job of doing that yourselves. So, Susie, why don't I come to you? Give us a quick 60 seconds on you, on Cluid, and on your role.

Yeah, pleasure, and look, thanks so much for having us both here this morning. I joined Cluid last January, so I've had the pleasure of being part of the Cluid team for a little over a year and 9 months. I'm our CPO, part of our exec team, and love being part of Cluid. Cluid has an absolutely fantastic social mission. We're all about providing general housing, social needs, and we work closely with local authorities and social housing waiting lists. So the, the remit of what we do is a huge draw to me being at Cluid. My background's a bit varied and diverse. I've worked across different industries, typically always within the people space. I'm also an accredited coach, ICF EMCC coach, so absolutely love that space. So people culture, very much a big passion area of mine.

Brilliant. So spot on today for you, hopefully, and we'll get some really good insights. Kevin.

Scott, look, I guess a career, a few twists and turns along the way, but I suppose one thing in common in all the roles I've had is just a, you know, curious curiosity around work and people at work, whether that's on the leadership side, the HR side, and, and so on. But I suppose about 10, 15, 10, 12 years ago, I took a real interest in, I suppose, what was coming through is a rapidly changing world of work, I guess, with sort of the digital revolution and so on we all know about. So I started to really specialize in that territory of changing world of work, future of work. I've done that in a number of capacities now. I founded Work Matters in 2017 and then took the sort of consulting side and advisory side of Work Matters last year into Lockton People Solutions. So global firm and doing various interesting things there with, with Lockton. So that's me.

Brilliant stuff. And we'll just— listeners, if you want to get in touch with Susie or Kevin, we'll put links to their LinkedIn in the show notes so you can find them after. Susie, let's come to you first. Was there anything— I mean, today we're kind of deep diving that challenge 5 around disconnection. Was there anything particularly in this challenge, or perhaps more widely in the report, that really caught your eye or surprised you?

Firstly, the report's brilliant. So again, like you said, if anyone hasn't read through it, I definitely recommend that they do. I think what struck me more wasn't a surprise, but probably more of a recognition that the disconnection that we feel, and we all feel it, whether we're in a chief role or a team role, is really when the other cultural threads slip. That's really where the disconnection forms. So like when leaders don't show up, a need, when managers are avoiding hard conversations, when we're not clear, when values are words. Like I think there's so little tolerance for words on walls these days. So for me, it was probably a real recognition of a number of different threads that we're seeing, which really breeds or feeds into that disconnection piece. So it's definitely not a linear piece from what I would see anyway.

Brilliant. Kevin, thoughts?

I just thought the timing of it, Scott, was excellent. I think you, as ever, took a very realistic and a very practical unplugged kind of view on culture, or you openly asked the open question, where are we and what's going right, what's going wrong, and particularly in the post-COVID and, you know, the 2025 context, right? So as we're trying to move on, you know, to a new normal and all that. So I know it was very, very well-timed. And I think the different threads seem to really complement each other. And I guess some things maybe not a surprise, the role of leader, role of manager, collaboration. But actually, this topic we're talking about today, whether you call it disconnection or connection, we'll come to that. But But the idea of connection being called out in the modern ways of working we are now, I think, is quite novel and new. You know, I think we always knew connection was important, but maybe it was wrapped up in things like, oh, you know, collaboration and connection, or just, you know, interpersonal relationships at work or whatever. It was maybe couched in other things, you know, whereas I think what you've done and what the participants in the research called out was No, we actually need to zero in on connection in its own right, in its own way, its own topic. And it's probably one of the topics of the day when you think of what's going on around the world and you think what's going on in social media and everything. So I'm just— I think that's the big surprise bit for me, and it was actually this topic of connection, or disconnection, being called out as a specific theme that we need to confront, we need to actually deal with it as a society. Separate issue, related to everything, but in its own right.

Yeah, start having that conversation. And I think for me, when I did the debrief with some CPOs, some of whom had been respondents and some of whom hadn't, my kind of opening line, I think, if I recall, was the good news is there's nothing new in here. The bad news is there's nothing new in here. But I think disconnection is probably one that's probably slightly more nuanced and slightly newer. All the other 4, you could argue, have kind of always been there. Leadership support, manager kind of support, training and skills, and all those things that we identified. But I think you're right. I think this disconnection one was one that certainly I was surprised came out, that people are actually starting to think about it. And it was incredibly powerful. So I wonder, Susie, then, just to pick up on your point about all the threads of culture, one thing when you were talking about that in your intro there was that I think what we can often do is boil this connection idea down to location. And I think that where we've gone to, I think the conclusion that people have gotten to is, if people aren't in the office, then they're not connected, which I don't agree with. I'd be interested to hear your take on that. But I wonder, when people are kind of working more remotely, what is it organizations have to then do in order to maintain cohesion, maintain and build engagement, and create that shared culture? What is it that organizations need to be doing?

Yeah, look, it's a massive question and loads of threads to the question. But there's a couple of things that are striking me as you ask it. One, this whole principle and point around connections, like humans, we're like hardwired to want connection. Like, that's absolutely how it's always been. What I think is really interesting is how it's surfacing up more. Like, you know, even as an example, in the leadership programs we're running at the moment, they're like absolutely absolutely rooted on emotional agility and being able to appreciate that you're working and leading with humans. So I think, I think we've got to just not forget that piece of it. And also, I think with regards to what we do in organizations, like, we can't lead through this like we've always led through. Like, we can't approach how we would solve something that worked for when people were 5 days in as we're trying to approach how we're going to work through now. So a lot of the challenge in my humble opinion, is that we're talking about trying to solve for something or work through something which requires a completely different way of thinking and a completely different leadership set. So to drive through that and jump to the solution that it's a 2-day in or it's a this, it's so binary and it's missing a few of the steps, which is all about what are we trying to achieve, how we're giving people the right skills to be able to live or work differently? Do we even know what our why is? Like, why? What are we trying to achieve? And so I feel like it's very easy to jump to solve versus actually trying to figure it out. And I hold a lot of empathy in that because I think one of the things we are all challenged with in work is time and headspace. So then expecting people to be able to live, work differently or show up differently without having the headspace to think through it is a real challenge, which is why I think we're seeing what we're seeing at the moment, because it feels like the simplest answer, but actually the right thing to do is to do the hard thing, which is work through it.

Yeah, it's— you know what, I'm actually going to add nothing more to that because what you've said is exactly what's been in my head, certainly for the past few months, that the nuclear button, as I described earlier on, That's the easy option because it's just easier to do that and bring people back in. Is it the right answer? I don't think we think so. But it's certainly an easier answer than saying, right, sitting down and going, right, let's work out what's our why. Let's communicate that to people. Let's run workshops and let's upskill leaders and let's give managers the time and the space and the confidence and let's take away some of their work so they can focus on the people. That list of things I've just kind of outlined there off the top of my head is enormous. For a little organization, never mind a big one. So, it's easier just to say, "Oh, you know what? Let's get people back in again. That'll fix the problem," when actually I think we know it won't. Kevin, thoughts on how organizations can start to bridge the gap and start to build that kind of cohesion, engagement, shared culture?

I almost go back a step and lead on what Susie was saying, not to ignore your question, of course, Scott. But now Susie just prompted something there that I just think is worthwhile And also even the focus on disconnection. So in other words, we're actually throwing out a negative and a problem and immediately we go into fix and solution mode to fix a problem. I wonder, particularly when people are looking for something more positive, is that rather than focus on the challenges with disconnection, could we focus on the benefits of effective connection? Why connection is so important. And it's interesting when you just take that topic of connection and that word and you strip it back and you look at any organization outcome you want to name, right? Productivity. For instance, we always talked in a hybrid setting about, okay, there's different types of productivity. There's task productivity where, you know, work is best done at home and in the space where you can get work done. Absolutely. But there's learning productivity and social productivity that we know and well established as different forms of productivity. In other words, social productivity being about the connection, the collaboration, and the mutual learning and all of that that we know, right? And we know that some of that is better in person than it is, but it's not impossible to do online. But my point is that you take even something like productivity and social productivity and you realize, well, the root of that is connection. Health outcomes, connection. We know, we know about all the loneliness figures and people actually's figures around now. It's becoming part of a survey item is, Are you lonely at work? You wouldn't have seen that question years ago. And resilience, we know connection and having strong networks and building kind of social networks is key to resilience. Resilience is a team sport. Like, you know, we need resilience from each other. Leadership agility, you mentioned, Susie, around that, you know, we talk about the 4 Cs of leadership agility, you know, creating, enabling change, shaping culture, providing clarity. But creating connection is the underpinning 4th C. It's the actual underpin. So I suppose what I am thinking on this issue is how do we sell the benefits of and promote the positives of connection? Because ultimately connection leads to relationships. Would that be fair? Like, you know, and relationship leads to trust. And with trust, you can do anything, right, in terms of productivity, collaboration, innovation. But without that, there's a, there's a, you know, you can have trust in terms of a positional trust. Oh, I trust you because you're the boss and I'll, you know, I'll do what you need to do. But if I'm going to follow you, Scott, if I'm going to really follow you and I didn't think that you have my back, we need to have a relationship. And there's no other way of having a relationship unless we've had some human connection. So I think it's kind of the root of so many things and maybe trying to fix things with solution. We could have we can start to really surface actually, you know, what is connection, why is it important, and why is it good for me and my career.

Yeah, so actually rather than try to just fix the root cause of this idea of disconnection by thinking about how can we build connection, and actually maybe that'll take us to an even better place than perhaps we were in 5 years ago before all of this happened.

I agree.

Yeah, yeah, interesting.

There's a connection deficit. I think we see that in society. That's not just at work, that's in society, it's in families, it's in social media. You know, we know there's a connection deficit, but it's not a deficit, Suzie, is it, that we sort of typically call out or recognize sometimes? Like, we know, for instance, at the end of the week, if we haven't had enough exercise, you know, we know we're in an exercise deficit, or, you know, but we never kind of say, oh, we're in a connection deficit, you know. And it's not something that's quite human that we actually need, but sometimes we don't even know we need it. And We've got to create the environment where this kind of happens organically. And we didn't have to do that before, but now we have to be more deliberate about it. Right?

Yeah.

And there's that word, and that word is interesting, deliberate. And we use intentional a lot as well. There was no need for intentionality before March 2019, because by nature, the work we did was kind of intentional. The office we went to was intentional. The train that we got on in the morning was intentional. So everything was there and we didn't have to work at that. And I love the idea, and I completely agree about that fact that from a task, social, and learning perspective that you spoke about there, tasks are often best done on our own, whereas the other two are best done in person and together. And I think that we're still in a place, and organizations are still in a place where the conversation about how we work— and we need to start ditching hybrid and remote and flex and all that kind of stuff and just call it work. It's just work. It's just, that's just what we do. But we have to think about rather than it just being, well, is Susie at home today or is she in the office? It's, well, when Susie's at home today, what's the best work for Susie to be doing? As her manager, what's the discussion that we need to have to make sure that when Susie's at home, she's doing that task-oriented stuff? And when she's in the office, to your point, Kevin, she's doing that more social and learning stuff where it's about the team, where it's about get-togethers, where it's about one-to-ones, and where it's about catch-ups and workshops and all that stuff that just works better in person. Because if we're bringing people into the office for 2 or 3 core days and they're sitting in booths doing Teams calls all day, that's a complete waste of everyone's time. Everyone's time. And that just pisses people off, I think.

Yeah, I think there's a lot of truth in what you're saying. And I think with these conversations, it's always really interesting how we kind of start stepping into rules. This works for here and this works for there because my lens and my perception that makes sense. Like, for me, what I think work— and I agree, can we just call it work? Like, we're all working wherever the hell we are, we're at something, right? But it really comes from balancing and being really clear on why. Like, what are— like, why are— or what are teams working on? And then giving them the flex around the how. So for me, I'm hugely principle-led as a leader. Like, I'm slow for rules, don't get me wrong. I've Eeyore in my background. I get it. There's a place for everything. But when we're talking about leadership and we're talking about culture, guiding principles work so well in my opinion, because what they do is they create a framework or a space or a boundary, and we're really clear on what that is. We know what our shared expectations are, our shared behaviors, whatever it is. But then people are empowered to work within that. And that means if we know our why, so let's say our team, we know we really value our weekly ritual of getting in a room together, working through all the cross-team collaboration pieces that we need to do. We do that. We all keep our diary free for that. And we come in and we work through it. That's a parameter that we have. Then knock your socks off for the rest of the time. And we figure it out and we work as adults. But I do think we have to be careful of the, the stepping into the rules or the, because I see it this way, this is how it needs to be for everyone. Whereas if we're very clear on why, why we're doing something, what's the reason for it? And that's why I'm saying it's actually a different type of leadership that we have right now. It's a different type of way of working. And how can we expect our teams and our orgs to do that if we haven't taken a breath? To help them see that. So that would be my two cents. Big, big fan of principles, big fan of empowerment, and be clear on your why, and then let people go off and be awesome.

I love that. And to pick up on a word that you said there, value. We need to show people the value of coming in. There needs to be value in coming in. An organization simply saying, well, we're going from 2 days to 3 days because we think that getting together is better. That's not enough, I don't think. So, let's, yeah, it needs to be more than that. There needs to be much, much more. Let me throw a spinball into the mix. We had Karen Hackett on from Permanent TSB for, I think she was Challenge 4, around accountability for values. And she was talking, we talked a little bit about multi-generational workforces and she brought up and she said, we've got 6 generations of workforces now in the workforce. 6 generations. And when you think about the diverse needs of all of those people, from people who are just about to leave and retire to people that are literally just joining the workforce at 18, that spinball causes all sorts of challenges on top of the challenges that we've already discussed. So, I wonder, Kevin, how can, when you think about that multigenerational workforce. How can organizations successfully navigate the expectations of all those people and the communication preferences to make sure that everyone's on board, that everyone perhaps sees that value, understands and feels the purpose?

It's a big one. And, but again, I think it can be framed as actually a positive thing. In other words, isn't it great that we have access and that in our work life we've been given kind of this experience to be able to work with and experience and talk to and learn from multiple generations, right? So it's sort of a starting point. Like, I know it's gone off track, but I've often thought, like, you know, in a society context, I just came across it by accident one day, but there was a nursing home and it was built right beside a crèche facility. And you could see the cross, you could see— it wasn't every person's idea of fun to be kind of like out and hearing and seeing and engaging with, you know, on the kids' side. But you could see there was sort of an energy. And then there was— they would bring— sometimes folks would come in from the home and tell stories about their lives and about, you know, with the kids, right? So there was just this kind of like, you know, positive thing rather than segregation. It was actually, you know what, there's energy to be created from both sides. But in the work context, yeah, you're right. So, you know, you go into a, you know, a café area and the, you know, the younger folks are on their phones, et cetera. And the older folks are kind of, isn't giving out, isn't that terrible? Isn't that awful? And so I, on that, on this one, I think first of all, maybe it starts off with a little bit, there maybe there is a bit of even fun-based kind of education or understanding that we're not all the same, et cetera. But I do think sometimes the generation thing can be overplayed as well. I think individuals have separate communications desires, you know, or ways that they like. And we see this, for instance, in Loxton. I know one of the biggest areas is the range of benefits now that have, you know, larger organizations that have accumulated, particularly since COVID the amount of health and wellbeing initiatives that are going on and on. You got pensions, you got the whole package. And one of the challenges that employers often find is that they're providing all of this at a huge cost, but actually the take-up and the impact, there's a lack of pickup and take-up of even when they have a platform to engage with, it's like 20% or something. And they're kind of like, how do we reach people to remind them of what we have available to them and their families? And so therefore they're looking at, so definitely the multi-channel piece. So there's an educational piece, I think, and that could be done in a fun way. In a light way. So not to over-specify. But then there's a multi-channel piece, which, and I think certainly on the communications and benefits area, Scott, you're seeing things that, well, look, we simply have to go to where people are. So if they're looking at TikTok, well, then we have to come up with our own version of a TikTok, 2-minute on why you should be thinking about pension or what healthcare is available to you and your family, you know, and that kind of a way. So multi-channel, generally education, focusing as well on things that unite groups and generations together. Susie talked about the why, you know, what are we trying to do, what are we trying to achieve. We'll probably find we have more in common than we do have in difference.

I saw you nodding vigorously there, Susie, as Kevin was talking, and I wonder if—

I know that you mentioned that point on, like, the— I would just really, really believe in the kind of flag of care around the generational narrative that we can hear 'Because you're this age, you're in this box. This is how we need to treat you.' Like, yes, I think that the generational awareness is really interesting, but I think it's a perspective, one of many perspectives. And I think, again, we've responsibilities in our roles to be connected to our people and our teams and have done enough listening and understanding as to what matters for our organization and just be really careful of of stereotypes. And look, I'm inherently positive as a human. I think having multi-generations in an org is fantastic. We're so lucky in Cluid. That's absolutely how we're made up, and it's absolutely a gift as well as a challenge. But so are so many things. And I think, you know, there's heaps of experiences, heaps of opportunities for learning. But if we're more concerned about us being there for our residents and showing up as well as a team and hitting our mission and hitting our vision, Surely that's something that we can figure out how to incorporate versus this thing to be almost scared of or conscious of. And yeah, I just feel sometimes we get caught in loops that we don't need to be in. Just keep connecting back in. What are we solving for? What are we doing? What's our why? And I think if we stay rooted in that, you know, you're really off to a good old start with trying to solve for most things.

Yeah, it's an interesting Sorry, Kevin, go on.

Yeah, no, just because I know this brings communication is so core to what you're about and as well. And I guess, and I know organizations, some organizations are doing this, but ask them, ask people, what is it, you know, in these categories in terms of either business communication or your benefits or your whatever it is, maybe a number of categories, but what would your, what is your preferred way of communication? And then segregate that and you'll probably find that actually, you know, there's some generational differences and that, but there's just individual preferences in it. And give them a range of options. But I just think sometimes we try to solve this top-down and maybe we're just surprised at the results when actually if we'd asked them all along, we might have got a very different idea and something much simpler and cheaper than we actually thought might be the case.

Yeah, and I think it's really interesting that in over-indexing and over-focusing on that whole generational piece, because we think we're doing good by giving Johnny, who's 18, versus Sarah, who's 60, different things and things that they need, actually perhaps we're doing more damage than good. Perhaps we're creating more segregation and bringing up more difference that doesn't actually exist. It's not actually there. I don't think of myself as 52. I still think of myself as 25 until I look in the mirror and then I realize that those years are long past. But I think lots of people are like that. I don't think What does a 60-year-old think like? What does a 52-year-old or an 18-year-old think like? And I think that we can box ourselves into a challenge that maybe isn't necessarily there. And I think, Susie, back to a point that you made earlier on about having kind of guidelines, maybe that's what those generational boxes, maybe that's what they need to be. Generally, people coming into the workforce at 18 are kind of like this. We need to communicate with them on TikTok a little bit more. And they're generalizations as opposed to facts. I wonder, one thing that I think that we missed and that we do miss, and I do actually think this is a big issue. I was chatting to a senior exec in an organization the other day about this, about how people coming into the organization, when you think about when we joined companies back in the heyday, that we're out of college, we're in our companies, and we're learning from the people people who are sitting around us. We're learning from Johnny the sales guy or Sarah in marketing, and we're picking up little bits that are just going around us all the time. And that's gone. And the idea of a water cooler moment is kind of gone as well. I don't particularly like that term, but I like the idea of it. So, I wonder when we think about people, particularly I think people that are coming into the organization, but also just in terms of being a great place to work for people in general. How do we recreate that cultural glue, do you think? What intentional strategies can companies use to try and recreate those what used to be kind of serendipitous moments? Oh, hey, Susie, great to see you. I haven't seen you for weeks. Do you want to have a coffee? Should we go for a walk around the block? Those things don't happen anymore because you're sitting at home where you are, and I'm at home where I am, and Kevin's at home where he is. So they just don't happen. So I wonder from your perspective, What do you see in terms of how do we create those moments? How do we create that sense of community in a setting where we're maybe not all sitting beside each other in an office anymore?

Yeah, it's a great question. And I think we've touched on a lot of what I'll probably say. For us anyway, Include, we've had to do a lot of work around how we onboard our new joiners and really kind of challenge how we did it to how it needs to be. So for us, we're really intentional with the what are the key moments of our onboarding journey when we're together versus what does not need to be so much like that. So for us, on day 1, all of our new joiners come into North Bank House and we have a morning of talks, bits of insight about the history of CLUA, getting to meet different people, meet and greets. And then we do clinics in the afternoon where they can figure out what they need. They get a— they come back into us then and they do walkarounds within the org. And so we're really intentional on their day 1 and then they come back and do another Clue It In day with us. And that's where we try to cover, you know, the bits that you mightn't get if you just sat in the side of the office or you didn't get to come back across the org. And we also do, we've just started doing these trips out to different schemes across Ireland, and our new joiners who've joined over a period of time all jump on a bus all together to learn about different parts of the org and different schemes that we might have launched. So I suppose in a nutshell, it's intentionality, as in what are we trying to solve for. For us, we were trying to find the particular moments that we felt our new joiners needed to be together for, and then to use their time respectfully to get as much as we could in so that they get as much when they were stepping back into their roles. And then we figure out and we work with their hiring manager on their onboarding plan. It's typically a 90-day, has a a number of different key moments that are with the team, on their own, with other teams. And that's how we're playing in that space at the moment. I'm absolutely not saying we've cracked it. But it's the intention that we're focused on with regard, with regard to trying to bring people in, help them get that sticky culture stuff, that ways of working, how we do things. And yeah, that seems to be working for us.

Great. We just lost Kevin, but we'll get him back in a second. And we can, we can chop this bit out. It's fine here. I just let him in here now. I'd say his Wi-Fi probably dropped. You left us.

It just went on me.

Your Wi-Fi probably just went. I'd say there was a little blip in the Wi-Fi or something.

It said recording had stopped.

Yeah, I got the same message. It's fine. We'll carry on and we can just chop this bit out the middle. That was because I, at the beginning, said, yeah, we don't really edit these unless something goes wrong. And then of course, here we are with something going wrong. Okay. So I'll just kick back in there. Thanks, Susie. Great. Kevin, thinking about that same question around creating those kind of serendipitous moments, little— I want to get your thoughts on that. But I also, I just had a thought as Susie was talking about the idea that I wonder, are we holding a gun to our own heads trying to recreate something that we're looking back at through rose-tinted specs? Because actually, maybe it wasn't all great back then, but we think it was, and that's what we have to get back to. I don't know. That was a thought. I'd be interested in your thoughts on that as well.

Yeah. You know, I think there's some truth in that. We talk about, for instance, effective management and leadership, you know, in a hybrid setting. Well, actually, were they— did they have those kind of competencies and skills, you know, in the office, etc.? So it's not an easy place to be a manager these days. I think we know that. I think there's some truth in that. One, One sense in terms of the in-person piece, free food, Scott, that's the answer. That's the answer. But actually, there's something in that though.

If only it was that simple.

If only. If only.

Sorry, I couldn't help myself.

I suspect he's bringing us somewhere, Susie. So I'm all in. I'm all in.

Not really, actually. That was literally it. That's the point. But no, but there's something again. I go back to our primal thing about the primal thing about connection. The primal thing about going back to the root here of what we're trying to do and what we're trying to tap into. And I think there is something about mealtime, right? There's something about like families. And, you know, Neil O'Brien, who I think you both know really well, he talks very, very sensitively these days about community, you know, and how do you create community within an organization now in the new world? Of work that we're in. And there is just something about that. And I certainly feel when I hear, you know, look, we're having a session on a cross-team issue and there's sandwiches in the, you know, and I kind of go, okay, well, that's serious. There's a sort of a message there that we're investing in this. We actually want you in person. There's sort of like a message there without being too heavy, but there's a bit of fun and all the rest of it. But I do think there's something around that. I think another thing to do in lockdown, which I think is impressive, particularly me as a new joiner, was a Coffee Connect. So literally two names out of a hat come and you just connect with them, usually online. But if you happen to be in the same office, you go for a coffee or walk or whatever. But Coffee Connect, and I've learned so much from other parts of the business just from that. And actually, if there's not just one person, but if there's a group, 2 or 3 people have been invited to a Coffee Connect, you feel like, oh, I better join that because I don't want to let the group down and make excuses. So, so there's definitely things, and we know what good looks like when it comes to in-person, joking aside. But I, I think we cannot shy away from the idea, Scott, that we have to create culture. We have to not shy away from creating good cultures online as well. I think there's maybe been an overemphasis that, oh, look, we get to the culture and collaboration stuff when we're in the office, and then we'll just keep the online experience a transactional one. One. And we just get on with it. And, you know, and I know, of course, managers will do their check-ins online and all, you know, on a monthly basis or something. That's all very good. But I mean, just something simple like a client did recently is just really rethink the whole experience around meetings. And say, right, to stop people scrolling and doing their shopping on their phone while there's a meeting going online. We all know who we are. You know, it's what goes on. People get distracted. How do we create that to be a really engaging 30 minutes or 40 minutes? Never an hour. Never an hour, right, for a start. So they're creating some rules and guidelines around Susie's point around meetings online. What does they— and one of the things they would start to do is to say, certainly in our weekly meetings, not every single meeting where we have to deal with an issue and just, you know, get in and get out. But certainly in the weekly, we want you to bring to that meeting one thing that you've learned, you know, one thing you've struggled with this week, you know, some learning that you've kind of experienced that maybe you could share with others, and one area of help you need in something you're doing. Now, the point about that is quite deliberate because it's just a human thing going on there, which is I'm sharing something with you, a learning. I made a mistake, which I'm kind of acknowledging to the group, so therefore the psychological safety coming in. And also on the help thing, what are we— when we're human, we— when someone asks you for help, what do you do? You usually help.

It's a need.

Yeah, there's a need. There's a human thing around needing. There's a— Zach Mercurio talks a lot about mattering. How do we make people feel that they matter? And the area of noticing, affirming, and acknowledging, but also needing. We actually need. So, when I ask you for help, we've now connected at a little deeper level than just a transactional online meeting. So, I won't go overboard, but I just thought it's an interesting way of saying, right, we're not going to give up on culture online. We're actually going to double down achieving our cultural ambition online as well as in person and not put all the pressure on the in-person experience.

And if we agree that connection is a key part of culture, which I think we all do, then that idea of those coffee chats, which is kind of being probably poo-pooed now because we're not remote anymore. It was something that was done a lot during COVID when we were all fully remote. But actually, I get back to my point about the rose-tinted specs about what happened before March 2019. I mean, when I worked in the IB, I never went and met somebody randomly in risk for a coffee or met somebody randomly in branch banking for a coffee just to have the chat and chew the fat and see what they did and share my challenges. Maybe we need to do more of that. And actually, as you said, Kevin, earlier on, quite rightly, maybe this is an opportunity to build connection rather than address disconnection. So I think there's a really, really important lesson in there and definitely food for thought for listeners. So listeners, write that down. That was gold. We're getting near the end. So I've got one more question. And I think it's a really interesting lens at which to look through the connection challenge, to to look at the connection challenge through, which is this whole idea of, I think, when we think about connection, when we think about how we work, what we do is we look at organizations and we look at the leaders and we say, well, it's their problem to address. The organization has to fix this. The leaders have to fix this. To each of you, maybe Susie, we'll start with you. What's the role for employees when it comes to perhaps building stronger connection?

Yeah, like, might be a bit of a controversial answer, but like culture isn't a service that you like order and I'd like my, I don't know, whatever. Why am I thinking of McDonald's? I'm thinking of, I don't even eat McDonald's and that's what I'm thinking when I say service. But it's something that's co-created, right? It's absolutely co-created. I think there's different roles in that co-creation. Like, for example, a people perspective is more of an architectural. You need to make sure the frame is there. Leaders need to role model it, make sure the fairness bar is there. But employees are in it. And if we are going to sit in this whole in a team building strength, moving well together, then we all have a role. But there's something about us all just getting a little braver with saying in today's environment, no, we are in it together. I own this and you own that, and together it will work. But if we're going to keep looking at everyone else other than ourselves, well, then we're probably going to stay in the same place that we're in now.

Brilliant, brilliant. Kevin?

Yeah, I think it's very much a two-way street. Now, maybe the initial impulse, particularly after COVID, was what can we do as an organization for you? We want you to be well, we want you to be healthy, and we're going to put in place kind of solutions to make us connect and keep the show on the road. And I think, though, when I go back to that idea of connection being at the root of things like you know, productivity, resilience, energy, and so on. I think there's more and more— I can see, Scott McInnes, the temperature turning up a little bit to say, OK, employees, look, we can go so far. We can provide all this infrastructure. We can do the best we can. And I'm doing the best I can as a leader, as a manager. But I really need you. I need you to play. So with flexibility, we've created maybe an environment where there's a level of flexibility now that, you know, That's hopefully, that's the case for a lot of people. Even with some of these return to office mandates, you find when you look at the fine print in those mandates, they're actually just asking to come back to what was actually asked for at the beginning, which is 2 or 3 days or 50% or whatever. So it's, it's, there's still hopefully in most cases a level of flexibility that we've never experienced before, that before 2020 anyway. But with that flexibility comes responsibility. So can we have an honest adult-to-adult discussion about some clarity around what I need from you and also what do you need from me, you know, as your manager? What do you need from me for this to be successful? Okay, so you've moved house now, Donna, you're living in Tullamore. All right. Okay, let's talk about that. Let's see how we can kind of achieve this connection and collaboration and so on and the team experience with that reality. That's now a work reality we have to deal with. And the flexibility also goes two ways. Okay, so there's flexibility now around your work and your working week. 'But you know what? I need flexibility from you too.' And so, the two-way street, I think it's really critical, Scott, and I think that's going to become more prevalent in the employer-employee relationship now, is what your role is in your career, your growth, and your success in this organization. And part of that is the onus on you to create connections and to think about your network you know, and Kingsley and everything else that we know what he does around that whole networking institute and the point about you building a network and connections for your own personal career growth. Not just because I think it's a good idea culturally, but actually it's in your interest to do that. And it's also more healthy for you and it's more fun and it's more engaging. So I think definitely there's a little bit of support to the employee, but also the challenge piece too.

I think that, and you and I have spoken about this a lot, Kevin, that employment kind of contract between employers and employees and that idea that there's give and get for employees, there's give and get for organizations, there's give and get for leaders. And we've got to remember that that's flexible all the time. And I think that is a really, really nice place actually to finish up because we are out of time. Susie and Kevin, thank you so much for being here today. I've really, really enjoyed deep diving this issue, which, as we said at the top, is probably one of the 5, which is kind of new, which I think if you'd have done this 5 years ago, you probably wouldn't have seen that challenge coming out. So it's been brilliant to be able to deep dive it with you. Just a quick reminder, if you want the report, inspiringchange.ie/mindthegap, all one word, and you will find it there. For now, to Kevin, to Susie, thanks very much.

Thank you, Scott. Well done.

Thank you.

It's great stuff.