BUILDING BETTER CULTURES PODCAST | Five Pillars: How to Build a Humane Workplace Culture

Welcome to the Building Better Cultures podcast, where I talk to leaders about how internal communications, engagement, and leadership all play a key role in creating amazing and successful cultures.

I would challenge our listeners, if you have not created this kind of environment, and the only way is to find out from the people, the team, how do you feel in this workplace? That's it. And how can we create an environment in which you can feel that you can be whole Yeah, you ask the people, they will help you.

Hello everyone and welcome to Building Better Cultures with me, Scott McInnes. An exciting day today because yesterday, overall, between the Inspiring Change podcast and now with Building Better Cultures, we passed 20,000 downloads. So a big thank you to all of my guests over the past 3 years or so, and also to all of you for listening, for following, for commenting and sharing on for all that stuff. Thanks very much. And I hope that the content that I'm putting out, and I hope that the podcast guests that I'm getting on are really helping you to build better cultures in your organizations. Now, I'm always out and about looking for new ideas at conferences and webinars. And it was probably a few weeks ago now that Inspiring Workplaces, set up by Matt Manners, formerly of the Employee Engagement Awards, he ran a thing called the Inspirothon. Which was an amazing global 24-hour nonstop event that basically tracked all the way around the world from Australia and New Zealand through Asia to Africa and up to Europe. And at each stop, there was a 20 or 25-minute presentation from somebody from within that region. And it was there that I saw today's guest speak. And I was really taken. You know, this is our first trip on the podcast, our first trip down to Africa. And I was really taken by some of the things that he said and particularly some of the thoughts that he had around the whole idea of building more humane workplaces. Because I know certainly from my perspective and my purpose of connecting people, I also firmly believe that that's a really, really, really important thing. So, I'm really pleased today to welcome on the podcast Dr. Jerry Goul, who is the CEO of the Institute of People Management based in Johannesburg. So, Jerry, good morning.

Thanks, Scott. Thank you for your time. And indeed, you remind me of that inspiratum that we had. It was fantastic. And I'm glad to be sharing the ideas here today.

Brilliant. Thank you, Gerry. Listen, just to get you into the mood and the swing of things, why don't you tell me maybe a little bit about you, about your background, and about your role today in the Institute of People Management?

Thanks. Thanks again. Yeah, so I joined the Institute of People Management as a member many, many years ago, actually in the early '80s, when I started working working in the area of management education. So I joined the Institute then, so I've been a member since then, and a member in good standing, I must add. Um, but joining the office, working at the office, only started in 2017. I had been on the board of the IPM for some time, but in 2017 the board felt, well, this guy is not really working, because I decided to take early retirement from my, my job and start a company, coaching company. Got myself trained as a coach and started that, but still remained on the board. So when my predecessor said no, he is going to be leaving the job, the board looked around and said, well, you're the guy that has just retired and is working on his own, can you please step up and step in here and help us run the organization? So I've been at the Institute since then, a job that I obviously enjoy because I've been in HR for more than 30 years now, different parts of HR, training, managing, management, being a training manager, personnel management then. It's now changed into human resources. And got myself into then the role of human resources executive and running development management, development programs for a bank, which again I enjoyed thoroughly. Yeah, so that's my path to the IPM, and I've been in the IPM now just over 3 years. Um, and yeah, I enjoyed that role.

Brilliant. And what is it the IPM does?

Yeah, so the Institute of People Management, can you believe it, it's actually in 2020 was 75 years old. So we're now tracking towards our centenary. So for the past 75 years, the Institute of People Management has really been involved in professionalizing the HR profession. You remember, I mean, long ago, it was like almost teaching. Anyone could do this kind of thing because it all you had to do was just You write records, who is employed, their leave thing. It was nothing professional. People were not trained and you were doing a variety of things across the board, across the value chain of HR. But with came specialization and people needed to be trained, needed to be developed. And of course, in South Africa, we also had the added unfortunate situation of the apartheid system. And I mean, the HR profession together working with the unions, in fact, agitated for the human rights of employees. And people needed to understand how How do we do this job professionally? So IPM is involved in that. In fact, at some point we ran a diploma. We don't run it anymore because the landscape changed when the South African Qualifications Authority came aboard. They changed the rules. But we used to run a diploma for people who were in HR. It was the most desired diploma because to get that HR job, you actually needed to do that. So what we do today, we give designations to HR professionals from the junior to the highest. Person walks on water. And we have this continuous professional development. And so we run workshops, we consult, provide mentorship for those that need it. And we run a big conference once a year, which attracts all the HR professionals who, even if they are not members of the IPM, it's one of those premier events that HR professionals from across the board actually like attending. We bring both practitioners as well as academics, researchers. So it— and of And of course, we have international speakers. So we run that. And with COVID we had to run it virtually last year, and we hope to do the same this year.

It must have been a really, really interesting and difficult time, I imagine. I hadn't realized that you were 75 years old, but it must have been a very challenging time when you think about a lot of what you do around people, and therefore around culture, and therefore around company success. When apartheid finished, when that was consigned to history, it must have been a huge time of change in South Africa.

Definitely, and it's still going on, Scott. The change is still going on because, you know, with people, we funny creatures. We funny creatures. We learn stuff and sometimes we forget it quickly. And the old habits die hard. And I mean, you only have to look around what has happened just in the recent past with all these movements around the world talking about diversity and inclusion and equity and justice. And I think we just need to be vigilant, remain vigilant, because what you find in the workplace is that people forget. You may— I mean, you can, you can have all the laws, the legislation that says thou shalt not do X, but you're actually talking to hearts. This stuff must come from inside. So yes, when, when the— when apartheid ended, then the whole transform— what you call in South Africa transformation, which is basically make sure that your organization represents the demographics of the land. That's a huge change because what it meant is you're now integrating people who were legally racially divided by law. And now we have to say to them, guys, we work for one company and this company must win. We have to create one culture. And that journey has been going on for the last 26, 27 years now.

Yeah, it's incredible. I think probably one of the things that really struck me when I heard you speaking on the Inspireathon was, it was almost your opening statement, I think, that you said, it's critical that we all ask ourselves, what kind of a colleague do I want to be? Why do you think that's important? Why do you think people ask, why is it important that people ask themselves that question?

Yeah, I think it's a very, very important question to ask because you can either be someone who attracts people to you or be a repellent, and no one wants to be that, uh, repel people from yourself. In, in the organ— in organizations where we work, um, organizations that have said here are the values that we expect our employees to live by from top to bottom, not just the employees but from management all the way down These are the values that you cherish, and those values must be embedded in our hearts as employees so that we can show up as those colleagues that live the values of the company, not just talk about them or point at them on the wall, but actually live that. And I think in our part of the world, Scott McInnes, this is— I suppose in fact in all parts of the world, but particularly here where we've come from this call it dark history of segregation. It's so important that you ask yourself that question. What— how am I going to present today at the office? Are you going to be reminding your colleagues based on that prejudice? Are you going to present yourself as that, or are you going to present yourself as, you know, a modern all-embracing, inclusive human being, which is what we're driving towards and we've been driving towards as a country here in South Africa. But it's not easy. I mean, you would know that one of the things that we're experiencing, a painful episode that we're going through as a country, is this gender-based violence. And it happens not just here, I mean, it happens everywhere, but it's truly painful when you see it and it's affecting people, and those people are your colleagues at work, right? And they are bringing that, they are presenting with that problem. So it's really important how supportive are you as a colleague, as a manager. I always challenge managers in particular, um, how they lead, what they do, um, how inclusive are they in their behavior, because that's what it's about.

Yeah, it's a really, really good point. And I think actually what it does is it rolls beautifully into the next thing I wanted to talk to you about, which was another thing that you mentioned during the Inspirothon was you mentioned, and I'm not gonna do you the disservice of trying to pronounce this, you can pronounce this in a second for the listeners, but a Zulu phrase that translates roughly as, "I am because you are." And I think that that sense of community of belonging, of togetherness, of connectedness is something that during COVID we've really, really missed. And just, I love the idea of I am because you are. So maybe tell me more about that and where it came from and why you think it's important.

Yeah, this saying, which is a Buni saying, and I will say it for you, Scott, Omuntu mumuntu nabantu. You are because, or rather, I am because you are.

That's a much, that's much better than I'd have pronounced it. Well done. Thank you.

Yes, yes. Yeah, so we not islands on our own. Even if you, you do not like me, but the fact that I'm a human being, there is an interconnectedness there. We are connected, and more so in, in one organization. I use the analogy of being on the same boat, that we are both supposed to be rowing in the same direction. You can't be rowing the opposite direction, yet we are here. Or if there is a hole on my side, you can't laugh at me and say your side of the boat is sinking. We're in the same boat. And therefore my being is as good as your being. The fact that I'm here, my survival, my thriving, If I thrive, you thrive because we are on the same boat. So, umuntu ngumuntu ngabantu, I am because you are. I cannot laugh at your misfortunes, you cannot laugh at my misfortunes, we are together. And you so poignantly pointed out that COVID has actually deprived us of this because presence, hugging, being together, that's what we crave for. In the recent, just in the recent past, as the levels of lockdown have been relaxed, we are now at Level 1 and gatherings were allowed, but you're of course controlled within the COVID protocols. I remember going to my community church where for the first time, you know, within those limits, how happy people were and almost wanting to hug, but you can't do that because you still cannot. You must keep your mask on, you must keep your social distance, but that's what we crave.. And I just want to also make this example that the connectedness is not just because we're on the African continent. As human beings, we're connected around the world, yeah. And, and for me, one of the painful things that COVID has done is actually to see— we've seen death galore around the globe, the globe. And the one of the examples for me that really was poignant was the what happened when the thing, the virus, was out of control in a number of countries, the US being one of them, but particularly Italy, a very religious country. And it was so touching. It didn't matter where you were. I remember myself in the southern tip of Africa, but watching this stuff in the news and hearing what's happening in Italy and the fact that there was so much desperation The humanness in me was crying out for those people in Italy. And just, you know, your heart goes out. And not just for them, of course, for colleagues around the world. So what I'm saying is this thing which says, "Muntu mbundu mabandu, mabandu, I am because you are," really covers the globe. Because as human beings, there's a connectedness there.

Yeah, I think that we are, you know, it is heads and hearts, isn't it? And I think that we all, you're right, we all watched Italy at the very beginning, back in March last year, in 2020. 2020, and we all saw them clapping on their balconies, and we all saw the people singing opera, and we all saw all those things. And it does really pull your heartstrings, doesn't it?

Yeah, yeah, it does.

Yeah. Tell me a little bit, we talked, or I'm saying we talked, you talked about this whole idea of creating humane workplaces. And what struck me was that you provided almost a roadmap for this whole idea of how do you create a workplace which is more human, more emotive, more personal. And you came up with 5 pillars, which were be sociable, psychological safety, have a sharing culture, have structures, and have spiritual connection or a sense of purpose. So I thought it might be useful for listeners just to maybe briefly explore each one of those and just maybe tell us a little bit of your perspective about each one. So let's kick off with be sociable maybe.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think it's, it's so important. We're social animals. I've already referred to that as human beings, that, that's, that's who we are. And if we are going to create a, a, a, a humane workplace, we must remember who we are. Our DNA is people. We cannot be creating these barriers between ourselves or among ourselves. So that's what I mean by that particular pillar, that we, we need to be sociable. But of course, even in the current environment, talking in the current environment of COVID we also want to be compliant, right? We want to make sure that we are compliant with the protocols, the necessary protocols. But there are so many things we can be so creative to make sure we remain connected, we are sociable. So we create that culture even though it's, you know, we're working remotely, but we create a culture where we're able to connect with one another. So connecting, and making sure that we take care of one another. I mean, part of being sociable, for instance, is really, again, what kind of a coworker are you? Are you a good neighbor to your coworker? Just making sure that you are available, you are available to your colleagues when they need to talk to you. And I think this has been a really big burden for managers. And managers having to make sure that they are connecting with their teams, they are talking to all their team members. So being sociable really is creating a culture, yeah, a culture that people can still connect with one another using the remote tools that we have today and making sure that, of course, we look after each other, particularly as things get relaxed. I mean, taking care of your neighbor is key. How do you do that? You put on your mask. That in that way, people can actually feel comfortable around you because they can see you're observing, you are being responsible. So I think that's key. And of course, I've already referred to this thing, this connectivity that we have to create on an ongoing basis. So I think that for me, that is key. That we remain available, we remain sociable. I mean, because remember, Maslow told us this long ago, when people feel excluded, if they feel they don't belong, they are not really going to be enjoying that space. So sociability has this thing that says, I belong to this team, I feel this team needs me and I need them.. And goes back to that Zulu thing, okay? Omuntu ngumuntu ngabantu. I am because you are. That's social, that's sociability.

Yeah. And I think that we have to just try a little bit harder because of course, when everybody is in an office together, all walking past each other, good morning, a high five, a hello, how are you? How was your bank holiday weekend? That's really, really easy. It's really easy because we're all in that place. But now people have to, we do have to think about making just a little bit more of an effort about picking up the phone. I have 3 children of 15, 13, and 11, and I have to remind them that you do know that if you type a phone number into the phone, you can actually hold it to your ear and you could talk to somebody. Imagine that. You can use it as a telephone to speak to people because they are just messaging all the time and it's WhatsApp and it's email and it's Snapchat or whatever. But I think that That sociability, that I am because you are, that whole idea of person to person is so powerful. And it's not just, I think often in organizations, particularly ones I think that are very hierarchical, we tend to think that a conversation like this that we're having now, well, that's about the boss, the leader, the team supervisor picking up the phone, getting on email, doing whatever to be in contact with me. That's their job to be in contact with me. Well, actually, if you do want to be, back to your question at the top, what kind of a colleague do I want to be? We have to remember that, of course, those people, our bosses, if you want to call them that, our leaders, the more senior people in the organization, they're people as well. So maybe picking up the phone to them mightn't be a bad thing either, or sending them a little message, how are you? And that's all that has to be said.

Exactly, exactly, Scott. That's all.

Yeah. At Inspiring Change, we help our clients to implement sustainable change and drive business performance by putting their people first. We do that through a focus on strategic internal communications, employee engagement, and leadership consultancy. If you're struggling with change or getting your people aligned behind your purpose, vision, or strategy, then get in touch. Simply visit our website at www.inspiringchange.co.uk. Www.culturechange.ie for more. Let's talk a little bit about psychological safety because I think that, I mean, particularly for South African organizations with the culture change and everything that you've been going through for the past 26, 27 years, the whole idea of having psychological safety to do things differently, to try new things, to just maybe to say things that you, you think maybe I shouldn't say this because I might offend somebody, or, you know, but to have the psychological safety to be able to say those things, to have those conversations is a really powerful thing.

It is definitely. And it's something that we all have to learn to create psychological safety. And by the way, this just doesn't apply to the workplace. Of course, we're talking about inspiring workplaces. I mean, the workplace should be inspiring. We're spending so much of our time working. Even though we're working remotely, but when we work, it shouldn't be a burden. Psychological safety is key, particularly as we'll be returning, hopefully in the near future, going back to the old workplaces. I know it will be different, the permutations will be different, but psychological safety is just key for people to be who they are, to be genuine, not to be fake, not to be putting on a mask. And not to be walking on eggshells. Psychological safety is vital in that sense. What does it mean? It basically means you create an environment where people can just be themselves all the time. So it is inclusive, it is trusting, where people can really trust what goes on here, that they can be themselves and what they say And of course, we're saying, I'm not suggesting that people should be reckless because we have created— it's not a freefall kind of thing. People are responsible, but they can be themselves. Adults are adults. And we bring people into the workplace who are adults. Sometimes we bring them in there and we start treating them like little kids so they do what we say. And they look at us and they say, as leaders, but this is what they say, but they actually don't do it. They don't walk the talk. Particularly those that, if you look at the hierarchies or the levels of the organization, they may not even be able to question. There is such profitability, let me use that word, in psychological safety because people can tell you, listen, and anybody in the organization can say, that is wasteful, that's unethical. If it's unethical, they can challenge because they know that by doing that, They're not then going to be, they're not going to lose their jobs. Companies put on these things called, they put on helplines, ethical helplines where fraud is supposed to be reported. And half the time those things don't get really effective. Why? Because people say, ah, I can't trust this because that's what it is. And so a place where there's no trust tells you there is no psychological safety. People can't be themselves. They're always looking over their shoulder and saying, if I do this, am I Am I going to be right? They're always piling, protecting, as they say, you know, you protect yourself. And it can't be an inspiring workplace where you are always wanting to see if you can cover your faults and you are not yourself. You're not going to be creative as an organization. So psychological safety liberates people, liberates the talent that you have brought to the organization to be creative, to give you the 100% because they know they can depend, teams can depend on each other. They know that if they fail in this environment, they are not going to be crucified for that, but they are going to be given the, the possibility of learning from that experience. In fact, we talk about learning culture. Psychological safety enables that, that you can learn and do better, that you can improve, that you can ask for feedback. How am I doing here? Because you know you're not going to be crucified and Why did you do that? Why did you do this? So it is critical.

Yeah. And it's interesting. It comes back to a point you made earlier about values in an organization just being words on a wall. I think if you work in an organization which has very high psychological safety, that you can say to somebody, look, one of our values is being one team. What you did there wasn't very teamy. Or what you did there, if we have a value which is honest and transparent, that what you did there just felt a bit sneaky. And it being okay to say those things because you know what? It's in pursuit of us all having a better 'I am because you are.' It's in pursuit of us all having a better workplace to be in.

Unfortunately, human beings are not like that. So we have to really, we have to reinforce this all the time. And I think this is so vital now when we talk about diversity, inclusion, equality, equity, and justice.. Because you're not going to get those things, you're not going to get people feeling included if they just look around the environment and feel, "I'm unsafe here." Can you imagine that? Walking into a workplace and feeling unsafe physically and psychologically. Because psychologically, what you are saying is that, "I cannot let my boss know what's important or how I'm feeling." You could be dealing with other issues that have nothing to do with the workplace. Workplaces sometimes— I mean, we've had the saying, leave your problems at the door or at the gate, don't bring them in here. Do you think that employee is going to bring their A-game? Psychologically, they're not there. Rather, give them the opportunity to deal with the things that they need to deal with and then come back and give you 100% of their, you know, of their attention and their heads and their hearts. As they perform the job. So it's a vital pillar, and I would challenge our listeners, if you have not created this kind of environment— and the only way is to find out from the people, the team, how do you feel in this workplace? That's it. And how can we create an environment in which you can feel that you can be wholeheartedly here and not feeling unsure of yourself? You ask the people, they will help you to create that environment.

There you go, listeners. You were just challenged by Dr. Jerry Goul to ask your people, do they feel psychologically safe at work? So if there's one thing that you take away from this podcast, I think probably certainly he and I both agree that that's definitely a really, really important one. When I think about your third pillar, I was only reminded of it last night. I was watching a TV police drama with my wife, and one department had a prisoner the other department wanted to speak to the prisoner and interview them, but the other department who had the prisoner wasn't letting them. And it was in pursuit of exactly the same goal, which was to get this person into jail, but they just wouldn't share. They weren't open to sharing. And that, of course, is your third pillar, having a sharing culture.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's actually quite funny that We see this in organizations, we see it creating conflict, having this culture of scarcity, a scarcity mindset, um, and, and not really believing in abundance, that we can— we, we, we are here in this one organization to create quality wealth for ourselves, wealth for the shareholders, wealth for everyone, wealth for the world, as it were. We're contributing in this environment and, and We just, because we go into this silo mentality, that's where that comes from. So it's marketing, we gotta do it our way. Yeah, it's HR, we're gonna do it our way. And we're gonna enforce the policies even if they militate against the business, what we're to, the end objective. It's communications, we're gonna always production or it's logistics. These working in these silos. And I think we've, I mean, all organizations try to break this thing down. How do you break it down? One of your key pillars is to create a sharing culture. And the sharing that I'm talking about here is— let's just take within one department. I'm sure you have had this concept of green areas in factories in particular, where this is— I think the Japanese perfected this in their manufacturing plant. But to produce quality, let everybody know what does our week look like. Like? Or even, what does our day look like? And then we are all going to be setting up. So now we've shared, we've shared our vision, we've shared what we're going to be doing. Everybody knows. And what about sharing it in the organization? That's what we're aiming to do. Everyone knows a sharing culture. Um, not like, I'm gonna have this knowledge and I'm gonna keep it to myself. Who does it benefit? Um, you, you— it kills this whole thing of working as a team. So sharing culture is important because you, you, you're gonna working then as a team. You have the same kind of information and you are working from the same base. In that sense, it's very helpful and it enables that you also maximize, utilize the diversity that you might have in your team because you share, you share your expertise and you use the strongest person where they are strong, and that's what you capitalize on. So a sharing culture It's very, very important.

And of course, sharing is about giving and receiving. Of course, when you're sharing, you might be sharing stuff with other people on your team or in the wider organization, but equally in return, they're sharing back knowledge, experience, learnings, stories with you. So it's a two-way street.

Definitely. It's a two-way street. I remember an example that was given in one of these management classes when emails first started You know, because emails is just a creation of when maybe late, I think late '80s, early '90s, they became popular. And one of the companies that I heard about was they, the boss, they said, guys, to the oldest, you've got to learn from the youngsters. So make sure that you, you allow them to sit next to you to help you to navigate this new technology. Share, in other words, share what they know with you. So that you are empowered to utilize the tools. So you are right, sharing has that, that it's a give and take. You receive, you extend, you receive from the other person, but everybody benefits. So a sharing culture is key in that sense.

Yeah, yeah. Let's think about structures, which is the fourth pillar in your list of humane workplace pillars. Why is, why are structures so important when organizations, I think often are thinking about, well, how do we get rid of structures or silos or those things that are getting in the way maybe of us being amazing at work?

Yeah, yeah. Good, good questions, Scott. Yeah, so structure creates a container, isn't it? So, and it creates, it lays down the boundaries of where, you know, this is within my purview, that's outside my purview. So that's all that you want to spell out. And I'm not talking here about rigid structures. I'm talking about fluid structures, particularly in our world. Because what are they for? So structure helps you with your processes, that people know what processes to follow, and people know what kind of levels of decision-making they can make. So it clarifies, particularly, I mean, we talk about the gig economy now. The people that could be working for you may not even be employed by you as an organization. They just provide the service. And you pay for that service. But do people know, right? Do people know how to access the information that they want, the decisions that they want, what kinds of freedom they have? So when I use structure here and how this organization is set up, it's really in recognition of the fluidity of the environment that we work in. So fluidity is a structure. You have to understand that, you know, that in fact we work in a fluid structure. What does that mean? How do we actually apply that in our day-to-day activities at this workplace? How do we drive excitement using that fluidity instead of creating uncertainty because we have such a fluid structure? It all comes back to relationships that you create in this organization. So what I'm talking about here is the kinds of relationships that you create, but clarity around if that's what you want to do, this is your pavilion, this is your lane, right? And that lane crosses with that particular lane or with that particular individual. This network, this is the relationship that we have are like this. Just creating that structure, making it known, making it clear, it will enable people to not to feel unsure, or rather to be unsure of how they should be operating within this fluid environment that the new economy has created for all of us.

So ironically, are you saying that by putting in structures or frameworks, albeit they kind of fluid and flexible, that actually that empowers people more because they know the playground they can play in, and therefore they can make decisions within those limits. Is that—

Exactly. I mean, you don't want to paralyze an organization, particularly now, especially as people are working away from each other, right? So stuff is fluid and people may not be available when they are supposed to be. When you structure, helps you, you know, okay, you can work, you can take decisions up to that level, delegation of authority. That's a structure. That's what you need in order to be quick, to be agile as an organization. So you need a framework. We need a structure, what I call a structure. You need a, a, a framework that will enable to operate. And I think that liberates rather than constrain people. Where there is uncertainty, where people don't know, um, people don't make the decisions that they should be making stuff gets stalled, and obviously, you're gonna upset your customers if you do that. You want to be agile, but you want that agility to come within a given framework. That's what I'm talking about in this particular pillar.

And I love that irony of constraints liberate, because it just seems so completely backwards. But when you describe it like that, it just makes complete sense.

Yeah.

Last up is one that I think is close to, very close to both of our hearts, which is a sense of having a sense of purpose, or maybe what you've termed, I think, during the Inspirothon, having a spiritual connection. I believe that without purpose, it's very hard to get everyone pulling and pointing in the same direction and everyone doing their very, very best work. What's your take on that? Why is this in here as your last pillar?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Scott, I just think that a sense of purpose and a spiritual connection, if I may call it, And one of the things that, you know, when you talk about this, when I talk about this spiritual connection, again, I go back to the fact that I am because you are, right? And we all want to leave a legacy, and I hope want to leave a legacy in the world. And the legacy, by the way, doesn't mean I want to leave a big palace for myself. No, it just wants to say there was someone, he did or she did their work diligently, and that's what we remember them for. That sense of purpose that we take the roles that we are in and we take them seriously, and we want to make sure that we, in the time that we are here, we actually— because we know we're not here forever— we want to make sure that we've done the best job that we can. We have provided the care that we needed to provide to our fellow employees. We have lived a meaningful life and we have contributed to the well-being of others. For me, that's the sense of purpose, not just existing for yourself, but also looking out for others. Because we are, as I said earlier in the talk, that we are interconnected. And that sense of purpose is what is it that I can do I'm doing in my work, not just to aid myself, but in a way to aid humanity. My contribution, the talents that I bring here to aid humanity in our existence as people, so that I've made a contribution. So that's really what I mean by this spiritual connection with one another, because I am because you are, right? Again, going back to what we said earlier, and that I'm not just sucking air, sucking oxygen here, that I'm really making a contribution to our world.

It was interesting, I had Jamie Heaslip, um, on the podcast a few episodes ago, the Irish international rugby player, um, who I think perhaps played against and possibly beat South Africa as a British, as a British and Irish Lion, but we'll just leave that We'll just leave that to the side for one minute. We don't want to fall out in the closing moments of the podcast. But the way he described it, and I've actually heard other rugby players describe it, was exactly to your point there. You know, we are not in this world forever. We're not in roles in organizations forever. And the way that they describe it is leaving the jersey in a better place. So you come in, you come in, you take the jersey, you wear the jersey as a Springbok or an All Black or an Ireland player or a Scotland player. And when you leave that jersey to the next person who's going wear the 10 or the 7, that that jersey is in a better place than maybe it was when you first put it on.

Exactly, exactly. I mean, that's so profound that effectively what we want to do is to leave the world a better place because we've been here and we haven't wasted our talents. And that's why it's so important really to be yourself. This idea of being fake in the workplace, um, not being genuine, not being who you are you really are not going to live your purpose if you do that. And I think when we have this sense of purpose and knowing that we actually uniquely made to fulfill that purpose, no one else can do it. So if we do it half-heartedly, we are robbing not just ourselves, but we are robbing our fellow human beings by doing that, by doing a half-hearted job. But whenever we have a job to do that we give ourselves ourselves 100% so that when we look back, we've said, I've done the best that I can. Let me paraphrase what Martin Luther King said when he said, you know, it's words like, people should know that there was a sweeper who swept this floor, right? And swept it so clean that you could have your meal down there. Basically what he meant, and I know I'm paraphrasing, I'm doing a horrible job on what the great man said, but basically, I think what he was alluding to that do that every time, bring your A-game. And it shows, I mean, it shows. Let's use, you've just used rugby now as a point. When the Springboks went to New Zealand to play in the last World Cup, I mean, I think when they left South Africa, we actually didn't think they were going to make it. And they surprised us. And why? What happened there? I mean, all— And I know that you being in the United Kingdom, you may have a bit of a love Scott McInnes, because you know one of the games that you played was actually against the, the, the, the, the, the Britain, and they didn't do very well. But it was a bunch of players who just said we're gonna leave our hearts in the field. How wonderful would it be if we do that? Because it's the talents that we bring to the workplace that every day I want to do the do the best job I can for my organization and for my team. That would be wonderful.

Yeah, it certainly would be. So let's think about what that wonderful looks like, okay? Just in the, in the final few minutes of our chat, Gerry, we talked about being sociable and sociability. We talked about psychological safety, about a sharing culture, about having some flexible structures in place, and about having a spiritual connection or a sense of purpose. What do you think success looks like if a listener of this podcast went away tomorrow or the next day or next week and put in place those 5 pillars, really focused hard on them, what are the practical benefits they're going to see in their organization? What's it going to do for them?

Yeah, and yeah, so the benefits are really this: you will have engaged employees, right? So people who are engaged in their jobs, people who have this— I call a spring under the soles of their feet as they come to your workplace. They want to be there so that they can make their contribution, and they know they're the ones that can make that contribution. So that's one thing that you'll see. If you are in the public service delivering service to citizens, that's what the organization is about, I think this will take out this perception that people have about public servants that you know, they, they, they don't do a good job. They will do that good job. They deliver the service that they need to deliver because they have this sense of purpose of serving the citizens of their land, of their country. And I think for private organizations, this will lead— I call it that if you create this kind of culture, if you create this, the, in this kind of organization, a humane organization supported by these pillars, that you, you certainly are going to see your problem, you'll see it in your profits. You, because the performance, it's all about performance, right? Your people are going to perform to the best of their ability and they are going to deliver to your customers, satisfy those customers because they also feel happy, satisfied. So that happiness that you talk about will translate into your pounds, your dollars, or your rands, or whatever currency you are in. That's how it would translate. Because we know this. I mean, there was a science— happiness— that's not a science— a happiness research that was just released. I think it's in March sometime, last month. And clearly it shows that happy Happy employees deliver high value, and that's what we want in organization. So if you create a culture like this, a humane workplace, people are going to be liberated to deliver for you as a leader, as an organization. So that's what is in it for you as a manager or as a leader of your organization, is that you will see the benefits. Brilliant.

Happy employees deliver higher value. And I think on that note, we'll wrap up the conversation. Dr. Jerry Gould from the Institute of People Management over in South Africa, it's been an absolute pleasure having you on. Thank you so much for coming back and having this conversation with me today.

Thank you. Thank you, Scott. I've enjoyed it. Thank you so much.

Thanks for listening. To hear from other leaders in our podcasts, to read our blogs, or to find out more about the work that we do at Inspiring Change, please visit inspiringchange.ie.