Episode 2 | DECLAN BOURKE | MD, IG Ireland

Welcome to Face Forward, the inspiring change podcast on all things internal communications, engagement, leadership, and change. I'm delighted to be joined today by Declan Burke. Thanks for coming along.

Not at all, Scott. Delighted to be here.

Thanks. So I guess before we kick off, before we get into the kind of the nitty-gritty of some of the comms and engagement stuff that we want to get to talk about, maybe just give us a couple of minutes about yourself, about your history, where you've come from, some of the things you've done. It would be interesting.

Okay. So I'm a 25-year veteran of, I guess, employment. I spent the first 11 years of that in Tokyo in Japan, which had some interesting communication issues, clearly, although mainly linguistic in terms of the language. Further to that, when I moved back to Europe, and I've had two main roles since, both in financial services and both as managing directors in Ireland, and currently now with IG, which is a UK-based FTSE 250 listed entity which offers derivatives and share dealing to retail investors.

Investors. Okay, interesting. Brilliant. So we may come back to the Japanese thing in a while because it'd be interesting to talk a little bit about the differences between some of the leadership styles from, from a Japanese type culture to a more Western culture. But for now, what are your views on what makes a good leader?

That is such a broad question, Scott. Personally, I think most people who will answer this will answer it based based upon their own leadership style, and I'm no different in that. I firmly believe that if you're going to lead, you need to be able to lead from the front, so basically to demonstrate that you are willing to do whatever it is that you're asking anybody else to do. I think actually you need to be very clear in what you would like, and you need to communicate almost consistently. All the time. And even if you communicate something once or twice, that's generally not enough. You need to communicate the same thing 3 times and 4 times and 5 times and just basically over and over and over so that people truly do understand but also believe you. Because if you say it once, they could be doubting whether or not it's actually genuinely what you want. So I think it's really important to be consistent in communication. And really, integrity, I guess, is, is the key word for me when it comes to the fundamentals of leadership. If it's very difficult to respect somebody if you don't believe in their integrity, so you need to demonstrate at all times integrity. And that can mean having difficult conversations, it can mean having the easier conversations. I've seen in my career to date people who like leading and are very good at it in good times, but then kind of go into their shells when things get tough. Conversely, I've had people lead me who believe it's very good to focus on the areas for improvement all the time, and they don't really celebrate the positives enough. So I think balance essentially is also really, really important.

Okay, interesting. And you talked about integrity there, and I think you also mentioned the word belief. And for me, as an internal communicator and engagement expert, belief is hugely important. And I just wonder, how do you drive, how do you engender belief in people that work with you and for you?

Okay, another good question, Scott. So I think the first thing is it depends on the type of organization you're in and what it is that you're trying to achieve. But the strategy and how you come up with that is really important. In some circumstances, a top-down strategy is appropriate, and in others it's possible to build it not quite from the bottom up, but basically to get people involved earlier.

So have a straw man that brings them and get their input and feedback.

Exactly. And I think even with the top-down-based strategy, so I mean, in my In my current role and in my previous role, I guess working for entities where the global headquarters isn't in Ireland, there tends to be quite a lot of top-down, but you do get the capability then within that to look at how that strategy should play out in your own market. And I think in that context, I've been a big believer in ensuring that everybody in the teams which I've run are party to and involved in that discussion about how we will implement the broader vision and strategy in our market. And I think if you do that, that goes a long way towards getting people to believe, to be inspired, I guess, in what they're doing and to believe also in the message and really to own it.

Yeah, I guess it's that, that role of a leader to translate, to take that, because I guess the, the IG worldwide strategy cannot meet specifically and directly the needs of every single market you operate in. And therefore, your role as MD and your peers in, in the US, parts of the US, or your peers in Asia would have to do a similar job in terms of bringing it to life for, for their people.

Absolutely. Yeah. And I mean, uh, so we've been at EMEA meetings where this type of thing has come up, and clearly there are cultural differences everywhere, even differences in work practices and differences in, in how teams work. I remember in particular, if you look at reward structures, that and how that underpins all of this or helps try and drive the behaviors that you want, a discussion from about 6 years ago where a UK-based team was quite individual in terms of how they were trying to do it. This was a new business team And comparing that to a Swedish-based team where the notion of team was maybe slightly more developed in that they didn't need to be rewarded in order to pick up and help with someone else's work, whereas in the UK at the time, in this particular entity I was working for at the time, it was definitely I needed to be rewarded to help out my work colleague, you know.

Okay, okay. As a leader, how could you help the organization to get to get over that culture that's maybe more reward-based centric?

Well, I mean, I think it, again, you have to look at, I would always think, what's the strategy, what do we want to achieve, what behaviors do we need to exhibit and drive in order to get the outcomes that we're looking for. And I think it's, so knowing your team, knowing the culture that you're operating within, and In the modern world, often it's a multicultural team, so you know, you need to understand perhaps situational leadership as well, not just based on culture but the types of individuals they are, and they might need help in different ways. So if you wrap all of that in together, you spend a lot of time actually working with people, coaching as well as directing, yeah, and if you get that right across a team and with the various team leaders, and you have a nice structure around there, and you build a culture really, I mean, which drives that kind of performance that you want. I think that can help. And I do think that that culture, even though again it's the overall culture of the firm that you work for, will change based upon market to market. And I think that's where, as a local leader, you can definitely have a strong influence.

Yeah, and I think you're absolutely spot on. I think it has to change. Because you can't take a US culture or UK culture and apply it to Japan or Sweden because it just wouldn't work, it wouldn't be authentic. I wrote an article last week which you can find on inspiringchange.ie on the blog on values. I just wonder how, when you're trying to create that culture within an organisation, whether it be globally or whether it be within Ireland, how does values play into that and what do you have to do as a leader to engender those values in order to drive the right culture?

Well, it's interesting because IG has just undergone in June of this year a kind of a redefinition of our values, and so I think it's done a pretty good job of doing that.

And who redefined them, out of interest?

They were defined basically by the senior leadership team based in London, but there was input from all markets at a senior level, but primarily it was again a top-down type basis. And then in June, all of the senior management from around the world got together in our London headquarters, and we had a 3-day kind of workshop around really what the values meant. And there were lots of discussions about how they would, you know, impact our work for us as individual local leaders. And how we felt the various cultures in which they were trying to be rolled out were there. So, I mean, it is always an interesting one whereby I think it's quite difficult to localize everything in a global organization to fit local cultures completely. I just don't think that works, actually. At the same time, the reverse of that, where you just try and take a one-size-fits-all, doesn't work either. So again, I'll use the term balance. I think there needs to be balance, and I certainly felt that at the end of the June workshop for us. Everybody went back to their respective markets, and workshops were then planned and set in with local teams, and also somebody from global headquarters came out as well to assist the local managing director with those workshops. And then post that, there were further workshops, and it was really— and then you can start introducing interesting ways of seeing if people are really starting to try and live by those values and how they embed them by introducing kind of fun around different markets, coming up with case studies of how they are actually living those and demonstrating those values.

Interesting. Is there a plan ultimately to embody those values in things like performance management and into rewards and that kind of thing?

No, at this particular time it's not. It's actually just about having a set of values which define or redefine, I guess, to some degree the DNA of the company. I've worked previously in regimes where values are brought into the performance management structures. I have mixed views about that. I think in some, some, some ways it can work. In other ways, you get a certain amount of gamesmanship in order to try and produce the results which will have the most positive outcome from a performance management and therefore rewards basis, which doesn't necessarily drive the correct type of behavior. And so I think it's a very tricky one to— when you're looking at something as broad and as fundamental really as values to link it to financial reward. I think that's a difficult one to pull off correctly.

Okay, interesting. I love the idea of storytelling in the case studies because I think that's what ultimately will bring the values to life for people. I think it's creating those kind of aha lightbulb moments that people go, oh, that's what they mean by courageous, or that's what they mean by visionary, or that's what they mean by whatever the value is. It's a great way, it's probably the only way to actually do really, really effectively. In terms of— we talked a lot about employee engagement, and it's become maybe a bit of a buzzword. And actually, my own belief is that employee engagement isn't about the destination, it's about the journey. And leaders have a huge amount to play in that journey in terms of creating an engaging place for people to work in order that we get the most out of them, in order that we get that bit of discretionary effort in order that we develop and build a culture in a workplace that people want to come to and do their best. And I just wonder, what do you see as the role of a leader in creating that engaging place to come to, to work?

Well, I mean, clearly, I guess to begin with, supporting initiatives which do just that, not being dictatorial about what those should be. So again, the whole notion of getting everybody to buy in, making sure they're defined well and they're rolled out and supporting supported appropriately. I think also, I mean, I've always been a believer in being accessible and being friendly irrespective of your position. So as an example of that, I guess if you're passing a dealing floor, sometimes it can be pretty manic, but during a quiet period, I would always take the opportunity to go and talk with people on the dealing floor and to find 'Find out how things are going,' and really just making sure you stay in contact with the business. And because what it also does is, apart from the fact that it helps because you are actually more in touch with the business, then it shows that you are accessible and therefore a little bit less scary. And then when you do need to ask people for honest opinion, in my view, you're more likely to get it than if you've been in your corner office and with the door closed most of the time.

Yeah, for sure. I once was in a workshop with the CEO of a large bank and we got talking and we had to give each other feedback on what we thought people thought about us. And I didn't know, so I suggested perhaps we'll give each other feedback on what we thought of that particular person. Well, my brain was telling me to stop talking and asking questions You're going to plainly just get me into trouble. So he said, you know, what do you think people think of me? And I said, well, other than being amazing— no, I didn't say that. I said, you know, I think the problem is that people don't really know you. People don't really know who you are. They don't know what you like. They don't know what you do. They don't know your schooling or what rugby team you support or anything about you. And therefore, to them, you're the CEO. You're not somebody that they can come to exactly in that instance with feedback, with ideas, with an open door, even though you might have, even though you might be sitting there willing them to come in and do that, if they don't know who you are, if they don't have a relationship with you, then it's going to be really tricky for them to do that. And that was my advice, was just get out more. Exactly to that point, walk the floor, talk to people, do some Q&As, just get people in a room and just show them that you're just human, have a bit of a laugh. And I think all too often in business we we miss that human side. We're too busy being bankers or stockbrokers or whatever we are, and we end up not being human anymore. And that, for me, along with storytelling, underpins the whole idea of engagement and internal communications.

It makes perfect sense to me. I mean, I also think depending upon the scale of the organisation, the getting out there more can also be achieved in certain ways. Like, you can hold town halls, but you can video stuff, you can, you know, stick it up on the internet, you can clearly do in-person visits. But there's many different ways. But it is— I completely agree about— I mean, we're all human when it comes down to it. So it's very useful, I think. And if you want to bring somebody, I think, from a leadership perspective, on a difficult journey, and if they understand that you are human too and that you're all in it together, together, it's much easier to lead them on that journey than if they see you as some distant MD, chief executive figure who really doesn't know anything about them. Okay, great.

And that was a beautifully unplanned segue into my next question, which is about going on journeys and change. Because organizations over the past number of years, particularly in Ireland, obviously we went through a fair a really nasty period after kind of 2008, 2009 for a number of years, a few years of austerity, and things just weren't very great. They were all a bit bleak, and I think we're still in some ways still trying to get over that. I think, you know, from my perspective living here for 17 years, we're not quick, and I think human beings aren't quick to change. We quite like the status quo. We quite like as it is. So I kind of wonder, what role do you think that leaders have, particularly from a communications perspective, from an engagement perspective, during times of change to try and engender a change culture in their people?

I think a very important role. I also think it depends. I mean, in this context, I think leadership isn't just about a chief executive. Leadership is about all levels in in the organisation, and it's very important that all levels feel empowered enough to lead, but also inspired enough that they will lead. So I think, again, depending upon size of organisation, the chief executive definitely needs to be out as the commander-in-chief, so to speak, putting that message out there, Being the voice of reason and calm, but also honesty. I think one thing that sometimes organizations fall foul of is trying to protect, in inverted commas, the workforce from some maybe unpleasant news. Absolutely.

Even though the workforce probably knows in some way or form that it's there, and if they don't, they're probably making up the story in their own heads, I imagine.

Exactly. I would be a believer in really being straight with people. I think you give them the respect that they are adults and that they will appreciate that. Sometimes that means in the short run you get people who can be quite upset, but longer term I've always seen that pan out to be a better approach, basically.

I couldn't agree more. It's interesting you talk about leaders being at all levels in the organisation. I think for me, I don't know if you agree, that's not necessarily about being a people leader, to borrow your inverted commas, but it's about having people in the organisation who are maybe during times of change the go-to people on the floor because they're the people that support and help and basically bring people through that change journey, not because they're in a hierarchy as a people manager.

Well, no, absolutely. I mean, it's, it's, uh, you don't need a title to lead. It's as simple as that. And I've never been particularly title motivated, um, and I don't think, uh, I don't think, I mean, even look at it, to bring it back, you mentioned rugby earlier, to bring it back to, I coach under-10s rugby where at this point we don't have a captain of the team, but you will find that there are leaders within within that team nonetheless. So they don't have the title, and that's at an under-10 level. So I'd certainly hope by the time we are in the workforce, we're a slightly more evolved version of that.

Slightly more evolved version of under-10 rugby. Maybe in some cases we are, maybe not at all, I imagine. Um, who are some of your role models, would you say, in terms of the types of people that you look up to, the types of people that you've learned things from? Is it Is it all from books and GE and Branson and those kind of guys, or is it people that you've come across in your life?

Yeah, it's from a wide range of everything really. Books, definitely. I read a lot. I think it's also— I've had the fortune, I guess, certainly in the Tokyo days, of working in, to, a number of different organizations. Which would have been headquartered elsewhere in the world. So I got an interesting, maybe, view on leadership from different cultures, albeit all in Japan. And clearly you had the Japanese culture which would then impact that, and it was very interesting to see how that was ignored in some cases and accepted in others. I also think that I've actually learned to lead sometimes from people who have reported to me. They've actually taught me ways in which I can certainly be better. So I think, I think that's been important. And also outside of the workplace, I mean, I think there's loads of different ways you can, you can see and admire leadership in others, and it's really For me, it's about being, having the ability to self-evaluate, being self-aware, and really trying to absorb from as many places as possible tips and tricks essentially, and things that I've seen have worked well. And even on the contrary to that, things where I see it really doesn't work well, just making a mental note of that and making sure I don't do that.

Yeah, okay, great. I wanted to come back, and we said at the top we'd talk a little bit more about Japan and Japanese culture. I think that it's so— we talk about having different cultures in organizations in Ireland or in the West. I guess something like Japan, the culture is so fundamentally different, seemingly from the outside anyway, so fundamentally different to Western culture. I just wonder what that taught you that you can bring back to Western cultural situations?

Well, I mean, again, not looking broadly at the culture within the workplace, is the same from the culture outside of the workplace, and maybe not just focusing on leadership, there's quite a lot. And so the Japanese traditionally would have a— it's very hierarchical, but within that hierarchy, again, talking about leaders at all levels in the organization, Every new person in an organization winds up with what's termed a senpai, which is basically a senior to them, and it's the job of the senpai almost to mentor and look after their kohai, who's the person junior to them. And that can happen at all levels of the organization, all the way up, which in a way is a form of leadership. So you could actually argue that the majority of people within traditional Japanese organizations are leaders in some capacity. And I've always found that to be something that's quite admirable and something that I like. There are clearly, like everything in the world, there's good and bad about everything, but if we take the good from that, I think it's good. I think also, for me, one of the most interesting things about the whole Japanese experience was Yes, the value system is completely different and the approach to doing things is different and it's consensus decision-making a lot of the time, which can mean getting to a decision can take what would seem to an Irish mind an inordinately long amount of time. And that can lead to frustrations, I guess, but with the understanding that actually it's the way that works within the Japanese culture for things to do. It's just different. So it's not a right or wrong situation. And I think too much in life, not even in a Japanese type versus Irish cultural type situation, even within, you know, an Irish entity where you've got 5 Irish people sitting around a table, the tolerance levels towards other people's mindsets or thinking maybe isn't what it should be. And I think when you go somewhere which is really quite different, you're almost forced to open your mind to that, or you leave. Yeah, so it's clearly not for everybody. But I think that's definitely something which can be learned from it. And I think the hierarchical type thing, has some positives, but broadly I think it's quite negative in that there can be a fear as well to speak out and to contribute. And sometimes it's not wanted anyway. So, so it really depends. I mean, there's positives and negatives to it. It is very different. But I mean, I guess on a, for every individual, the two things, one would be To recap, I guess, that kind of senpai/kohai, so the kind of the senior that you have an obligation to look after somebody. And of course, there's somebody senior to you who has a kind of an obligation to look after you, to look, watch out for you, maybe is probably a better term.

Mentoring. Yeah. In a mentoring capacity.

I think that's, I mean, if that was happening genuinely across all organizations in Ireland, I think you'd have quite a different dynamic, maybe. Not that it doesn't happen to some degree, but it's in a less structured way, maybe. And I think also just that openness to other thought processes, because there's a validity in them. I remember being in India on a trip where we visited a number of different companies, and I asked each time, I had one question. The question was, how many of the senior execs here are not Indian?? And in most cases, the companies visited, the answer was none. And I said, well, do you not think that's a bit of a competitive disadvantage? If, because you could have a groupthink issue going on. And the answer I got back was no, because everybody's been educated in the best places in the world. Right. So Harvard, Oxford, wherever it was, but I would still argue that they're still all coming from the same value system. From the same culture, and therefore there could be a weakness there. Not necessarily, there's a strength in unity as well, but again, it's a, you know, I think in a similar type context, once your mind is open to that, and then you can think, okay, if we're both from the same neighborhood in Dublin and we've grown up there our whole lives, we assume we think the same way, but actually we might not. So people get their minds open to that and they can genuinely kind of live with that. I think the rewards can be plentiful.

Okay, brilliant. Interesting. Final question before we go. What leadership advice, what one piece of leadership advice— I'm going to ask all guests this question— what one piece of leadership advice would you give your 20-year-old self?

My 20-year-old self, I would say Integrity, integrity, integrity, and trust my gut.

Brilliant. Declan Burke, thanks very much for your time.

Thanks, Scott.

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