#ICPODCAST​ | Episode 49 | Zoë Routh | Leadership Expert

Welcome to the Inspiring Change Podcast, where I talk to leaders about internal communications, engagement, leadership, and the role they all play in creating amazing cultures.

You're right, like so many leaders do things impulsively when it comes to interacting with others. Do as I say, a little bit too commanding and not enough asking. And there is a real craft in leadership communication with a few tweaks of language could be really important.

Hi there and welcome to this episode of the Inspiring Change podcast with me, Scott McInnes. Um, I really enjoyed the conversation in the last episode with Jamie Heaslip, uh, former Ireland international and Leinster player, where we spent a lot of time talking about high-performance leadership. And you know, for me, all that stuff is really, really important. Helping leaders to get the best out of themselves is a really, really big thing because it helps them to then get the best out of their teams, to drive engagement, to drive productivity, to drive motivation, and just to make work a better place to be, and they've such an important role. And I know you're probably all bored of hearing me say it because I've said it so many times that they are, for me, the glue between the people in an organization and the senior team and the direction the organization's going. So, I'm delighted today to be joined by Zoe Routh. I'm gonna let Zoe say a little bit more about herself in a second, but I just wanted to kick off by just reading out a paragraph from her website, 'cause I think it kind of sums up why I think this stuff is really important. Here it is. I believe that with a little more compassion and understanding, the world would be a better place. I'm not so naive to think that it's easy. People stuff is hard. I'm on a mission to demystify it, to give leaders practical maps and tools to make people stuff the best stuff of leadership. I work with leaders and organizations who believe this one thing: people matter. And that for me is such an important thing, because in many organizations, people are just there to do the work. They don't necessarily matter as much. And we know that in the organizations where people do matter, where people, where organizations do put people first, where they go down that more Branson route of people first versus customer first, they're actually more successful. So it's interesting. So Zoe, good morning.

Good morning, good evening.

It's actually not good morning, it's good evening for you. And as we were discussing just before we came on, it's like quarter past 6 in the evening where you're based in Canberra. So it is literally wine o'clock.

It totally is wine o'clock, yep.

Yeah, it's been one of those weeks.

Oh no, I think you get to Friday and you figure, what the hell, let's have, uh, let's have something lovely and a nice little tipple.

It has to be said that over, um, over lockdown it hasn't, it hasn't taken as long as Friday. That has to be said. It's been quite often, it's been, it's been Monday. It's been, I mean, let's be fair, it's been Monday. Um, listen, you've got, um, a new book out, People Stuff: Beyond Personality Problems. We're going to talk about that a little bit in a while. But first of all, why don't we kick off with the easy one I always start with, which is just for you to tell me a little bit about you, where you've come from, your journey, and what you're doing now.

Oh, thanks. Thanks for the invitation for that. Well, my accent, well, depends. We were just talking about accents before we got on the recording, and I'm a Canadian Australian. And so I got exported from Canada in 1996. And prior to that big hop across the pond, I spent every summer working at a summer camp in Northwest Ontario, in Ontario, leading canoe trips. And that was sort of my entree into the field of working with people in beautiful environments. Fell in love with that kind of work. And it kind of reached a pivotal point in my personal journey where I had to decide, what are you gonna do for a career? Sort of procrastinated around getting my uni degree and decided that I wanted to do full-time what I was doing every summer, which is doing this outdoor stuff with people. That led me to apply for a job here in Australia with Outward Bound. And Outward Bound originated, as you know, in the UK, and it has schools around the world, and that's personal and leadership development in the outdoors. So that was my grand adventure begun over on this side of the planet in this hemisphere, and that led me to explore leadership development in many different contexts. And I ended up being staff and training director at Outward Bound, so I learned leadership from a organizational hands-on perspective and dealing with all the crazy dynamics that comes with that, layered on top of the usual stuff, which is, you know, unhappy people, wanting— people wanting promotions, people not getting promotions, as well as having all your staff members live on site with you. So it was leading in a community, which is pretty interesting, um, things. And then somewhere along the way, uh, as my leadership mantle expanded and my responsibilities got bigger, I worked out I needed some help with that. So I hired an executive coach. And that was a transformative experience. I thought, wow, this is really profound. I learned a lot about myself, and I learned a lot about leadership. And I figured, I want to do this for others. Like, this is an amazing development modality. And that began my adventure into running a business or a leadership practice. And that was in 2002. So I set up Inner Compass and, and ran it part-time ever since then. So coaching on the side of my other work that I was doing. And so I've blended a whole bunch of things together, wilderness adventure, working with people and developing themselves in leadership, and doing it in beautiful places. And I'm very happy where I am right now. I've added book writing. That's not so much fun as climbing up mountains, that's for sure. But I've added that as part of my, one of the strings to my bow, I suppose.

Brilliant, and of course you are also a prolific podcaster.

Yeah, that's fun. No, that's unlike writing, which can be, which is a mental grind. Podcasting is a delight because, as you know, you get to have wonderful conversations with amazing people doing incredible things. And yeah, that's a joy and a delight too.

Yeah, cool. And if anybody wants to listen to Zoe's podcast, you can find it on her website, zoe-routh.com. We'll come back to more of that later on. So I love that term people stuff because that's often the bucket that all that stuff Exactly, is kind of thrown into. And, you know, one of the challenges that I often hear in organizations is that, you know, that people stuff is the stuff that gets in the way of leaders doing their jobs. You know, I haven't got time for the people stuff. I'm too busy doing the legal job, the IT job, the, you know, the HR job, the whatever job. And it was really funny actually, I think on very, very first episode, podcast one with Mary Davis from Special Olympics, the CEO of Special Olympics. And she said, you know, leadership isn't something that you can do. To do from 10 till 12 on a Tuesday morning. People think it is, but it isn't. So what's your take on that, about the people stuff getting in the way of doing the job?

I think that's people's mentality when they first take on leadership roles. It's like they go from being fairly autonomous in their own world of expertise to now having to liaise with colleagues. And it's like, well, can't you just do your own thing, look after yourself? And there's kind of a bit of a shock to the system when people start knocking on their door saying, "Have you got a minute?" And downloading whatever the issue is or asking for advice or whatever. And I see this often with new leaders that they are just bamboozled by the sheer amount and volume of interactions that they now need to contend with. And they find it distressing, annoying, and distracting because they just want to go back to the tools. I had one leader describe it that way. He was a lawyer. He's like, "Ah, I just prefer just being on the tools, doing the trade or the craft of law and not having to deal with this more amorphous mass of blobby-like people and all their blobby-like issues. So I think it's a shift in perspective that happens with people. It's like the real work of leadership is the people stuff. That's it. That's like 80% of what you should be doing is contending with what's going on for people, helping them solve their own issues, coaching them to higher levels, and helping them become leaders themselves. I mean, that should be your priority as a leader. All the other stuff is not necessarily leadership stuff. There's strategic thinking components, but if you don't do the people management side of things well, then it doesn't matter how good your strategy is. No one's going to stump up and deliver it the way that you want. So yeah, it's an orientation of priorities that is the biggest confrontation and realization for leaders when they first take on the mantle.

And I think that orientation of priorities is, is often hampered by an organization. And I think many organizations, not just individuals, but many organizations are still in a place where you get a leadership role and, uh, insert specialty here role, you know, you're now the head of legal and you have a big team, which, which makes it hard to find that 80/20 balance, I guess.

Absolutely. Like, I'm thinking about lawyers in particular right now because that's you see that happen badly often is a very successful lawyer gets put in charge of a team and meant to mentor his staff. And he's still got allocated, he or she has still been allocated a budget that they need to deliver on. So there is a real tension, a real tension that is all about delivering on your targets because you get often in many cases, get remunerated based on that and the obligation to cultivate a team. And that is a real tension. That is quite challenging. And you're right, so building a specialty and then adding the layer of leadership specialty on top of it is, it's like going back to the beginning, going back to being a beginner in some ways. And just because you're smart doesn't mean you're necessarily gonna be automatically a great leader. They're completely different set of skills than your technical expertise. And that's sobering and humbling for many people.

Yeah, it suddenly makes it— brings you right back down to brass tacks, doesn't it? You know, suddenly I'm not the expert anymore. I'm not the most senior person in the room. Yeah, it's an incredible challenge for people. And I do think that we end up throwing people into leadership roles, just because they're senior, just because they've got lots of years on the tools under their belts. And they're not necessarily the best person for the job. But organizations still struggle with that whole dual career path thing, where it's okay to be an expert in a particular field, And it's OK to also be a people leader. And you work your way up the organization. What's your job? I'm a leader of people, as opposed to a lawyer or an IT consultant.

I think that's a really astute observation, is that you're right. There is not the dual career track for that. So if you don't want to be a people leader and you do just want to specialize, often you're stymied. Like, there is no room for you to progress. And your contribution gets stuck and contained. And there's no real recognition of the expertise of being a people leader and the magnificence that that brings. So you kind of need to dabble in both bits. Ah, that would be—

So how do we— sorry, go on.

I was just thinking of like what an interesting work experiment that would be to recraft organizations so that you could do that. You could develop expertise and have that a gen— be that a genuine track that gets compensated and has high levels, and being a people leader track.

And that was gonna be my question. I wonder how you would do that.

Well, I think, you'd have to redesign your career orientation around that. And well, that's the technical— that's the technical solution, but I think it probably needs a shift in values, um, and the larger culture change piece around it too. So I think if you're going to do that kind of experiment, you need to assess, okay, what are our values in the organization, and will they support this kind of structural change? And if the answer is no, then there's no point running the experiment. Unless you can have a really robust conversation around that. Is there appetite for shifting values and how those are articulated? Then you might have a chance to do it.

I think we might have a better chance now than ever before when you look at organizations like the US, the Business Roundtable, where they're now talking about building stakeholder value as opposed to shareholder value, that suddenly it's not all about profit. It's about building benefit for all stakeholders, which of course includes your staff and your people leaders. So maybe that's an opportunity now that companies can pick up on, can actually see the people leader role as expert, as important, as critical to the success of the company as their subject matter experts. So let's hope if somebody listening to this and they can do it, then great. Let us know, come back and tell us your story. Let's talk a little bit about something that you mentioned in the book, which is the fact that leadership is in crisis. You know, When you take that thought and then you layer on the fact that, and I do promise listeners, we will get to a point where we won't talk about COVID-19 in these podcasts anymore, 'cause I know it's getting a little grating, but for now we will. If leadership is in crisis and then we are taking that leadership crisis and layering that on top of, let's not beat around the bush, a planet that's in crisis with this whole pandemic thing, What are some of the challenges that leaders are facing at the moment if you're talking about them being in crisis?

The crisis centers around a crisis of trust in leadership. That's what really what leaders are contending with in terms of their context. So never before has trust in leadership been so eroded. The Edelman Trust Barometer did a survey in February of this year in Australia, and I think around the world, but I was just paying attention in particular to the, the Australian results about which, which institutions do people trust in Australia, and trust being evaluated by competence and ethics. Those are the two main criteria. And no institution came out as being trustworthy, so neither competent— and so no institution had— was deemed both competent and ethical. Um, wow. Yeah, so businesses business, like, uh, private sector business, was deemed competent but not necessarily perceived as ethical, and not-for-profits were perceived as ethical but not necessarily competent. And the ones that scored neither competent nor ethical were media and government.

Okay, so, uh, banks fit in the whole thing. They must have— I presume they were in that last group as well.

Which one? Sorry.

Banks.

Banks, exactly. They, well, they're, yeah, banks. We had a Royal Commission into the banking sector here in Australia. And that's the other thing that's contributing to the crisis of trust in leadership is the Royal Commission after Royal Commission. And investigation into the bank sector here was amazing. I'm not sure if you had any of the news of it where you are, but essentially it turns out that all of the major banking institutions were committing essentially fraud They were doing things like billing, making up accounts for people who had passed away, making up charges for services that people didn't receive. Like, it was extensive and systemic fraud. And that was like, that was just gobsmacking for the rest of us, you know? It's like, how does this happen? How do banks, which are supposed to be stalwarts In every way, shape, and form, like the steady hand that guides our country is just rife with this corruption. What the? What's that about? And when you peel back the layers, what you discover is that the systems were driving this unethical behavior, not necessarily that these places were filled with greedy monsters. In fact, what they found is that the remuneration systems were set up so that individuals had to meet these incredible targets or they didn't get paid. So survival meant that they did whatever they could to hit their targets so they could feed their families. So that happened in many cases. Now, there were other cases where people were greedy and were taken over by their shadow side and did the wrong thing intentionally, deliberately. But, um, all this casts a pall around what it means to be a leader. And it's not surprising. You— we get these reports of yet another crisis in the media around some CEO in a corporation that's done the wrong thing. Like, what do we have this morning? At the head of Australian Post has been asked to resign or sacked because she apparently gifted her chief exec— her— some of her core executives $3,000 Cartier gold watches for their contribution to some, uh, to getting some deals landed. It's like, come on, really? Like, that just, just not— does not pass the front page test. And it's like, it's, it's just so disappointing and frustrating. So this is the crisis of trust and leadership that leaders face, and it taints what we do as leaders. Now, not every leader is sitting in a global institution running large-scale corporates. Many leaders that I work with are running smaller organizations or not-for-profit organizations, and they're doing their best to be ethical and good leaders, but this is the, it kind of, it just filters into the psyche. There's a kind of distrust that staff have of their leaders, and you have to go above and beyond, even more so now, to show transparency, to show decency, to really walk your talk, and to really own whatever it is that you say you're gonna do. It's now more important than ever because of this crisis of trust that's happening. And then, oh yeah, pandemic, hello. And so you're meant to lead with conviction and confidence the people through that. And to be honest, like, um, the research I've been checking out around this, you know, how, how are people seeing their leaders are doing? Most organizations or most staff and organizations are pretty happy with the way that their leaders are handling it. And I think This is good news. You know, people, leaders have risen to the occasion and have banded together with their executive. And this is the stories I'm hearing quite a lot from leaders is like, yeah, my executive, they really rallied. There's nothing like a crisis to help people bond together and overcome their differences and pull things off. So that's been a good experience in many cases. And for some, exhilarating even, like the adrenaline charge of having to to pull off big solutions to really complex solutions, to complex situations has been a really healthy thing for the teams and for the organizations. Now, that's not the case for many. Many organizations had to lay off hundreds of people, and it's just been a devastating cascading effect, and that injected fear and trepidation and is eroding culture in those organizations, 'cause you never know. Is the axe coming for you next? I was speaking to a leader, she's head of teaching and learning at one of the universities here in Australia, and they had 200 people layoffs about a month ago, and apparently there's another 200 coming. And so everybody's kind of looking to decide each from, at the person next to them, from side to side going, is it them? Is it me? Will I have a job? And these are real concerns. So yeah, it's, It's tough. It's tough in many sectors, and some sectors are doing better than others. But yeah, it's difficult, muddied waters that we sort of trudge through right now.

Yeah, I completely agree with everything you've said. And a couple of thoughts strike me that I think that even in the midst of the darkest times, in the midst of the hardest change, there is always an opportunity to shine. There's always a silver lining on the cloud, albeit it might be microscopically thin. But I think that in the example you just gave there with, you know, a couple of hundred people let go and, you know, a couple hundred more to come, the opportunity there for leaders to be transparent, to be human, to be vulnerable, to communicate really well, um, for organizations to communicate really well— I think actually, whilst in the moment it can seem that everything's really bad. I think when people look back on the experience, and maybe they have lost a job and it is a very tough time, so maybe this just takes time, but when they look back, they go, you know what, they did the best they could. They did, they did as much as they could for me. They did it in a human way. They did it in a way that was empathetic and decent. And I think that really stands to organizations. And I think that even if you're not working in an organization, when you see things like that coming from, let's take Australia Post as the example you threw out there. When you see that kind of thing coming from an organization like Australia Post, I think that helps to build your trust. Even though you don't work in that organization, it builds your trust of that organization. Of course, that is undone that quickly when somebody gives somebody a 3 grand gold watch. And what amazes me is that the, the object— I, I just, I just don't get it because I think that you read the stuff in the paper and you go, What the serious hell? What? What? She did what? And you read that and you go, what was it made her think that was a good idea? Equally, what was it? And there's actually another one as well recently, the Dutch royal family, just when they locked down their country, decided to go on holiday to Greece with their kids. No, and the PM in, in Holland said he knew about this, and the royal family basically, based on the, the huge outcry from people in Holland, who in fairness, the Dutch are very, very relaxed people generally, they had to come home. They were there for a day and a half and they had to come home, and they had to go on national television and apologize. The lack of self-awareness is unbelievable. Sorry, you're going to make a point there, Zoe.

Well, I love that story as well because it's like, how, how do people get so So how do they take their eye off the ball when it comes to empathy and compassion? And I love the research, this book that I read called "The Paradox of Power" by Dacher Keltner. That's probably butchering his name.

That's easy for you to say.

It is a fantastic piece of research and it just, he explains some of this and I call it the shadow, what emerges when people lose sight of who they're serving and they switch to self-focused things. He talks about it, it's a biochemical response. And he talks about power, right? And he says, "Power is not something you get, you take. It's something you are given and that you are granted by the people that you serve." So you rise to power by being in service to others. And the people that you are serving say, "Hey, you're doing a good thing for us." We're going to give you a title, we're going to give you status, we're going to give you compensation in thanks and in appreciation in exchange for the service you're doing to us and to the greater good. And this seems like a fair exchange. And then what often happens is that in the receiving of these boons, these power and privilege and prestige, is that it goes to our head. We get— we experience exhilaration. It's energizing to be granted this. And what happens is that our gaze and our, our lens of service gets swiveled onto ourselves, where we start thinking, how can I get more of this? How can I maintain this? And the paradox that Keltner talks about is exactly that— what gifted you power actually starts to disconnect you, um, once you get it. So you lose your capacity for compassion when you start to experience this exhilaration. He says— he even describes it as a type of brain damage. Because it cuts the circuits in your empathy centers. And so when you talk about the royal family going on leave, it's because likely they have got their gaze firmly planted to themselves and their own enjoyment, and they disconnected from their empathy centers. And it happens to a lot of leaders. And so the other thing he discovered too is that in accessing power, you also become way more impulsive. So you get all these primal energy surges when you get granted positions of authority. And his research shows that people become more impulsive eaters, they tend to have more impulsive behaviors like inappropriate sexual flirting. And that's why often you see people in positions of authority having inappropriate sexual relationships— boss to junior, etc.— because, you know, tie in there, you know, I'm powerful, I'm, I'm in charge, and then I'm being surgeful, these primal energies, these biochemicals, and sure, I'll flirt and have a sexual relationship. Any scandal you think at the top of the tree that's related to that is probably associated to the switch in our brain chemistry when we get hung up on all these power experiences. So I love that there's actually an answer to that question. It's like, what were they thinking? It's like, well, they weren't thinking 'cause their brains got hooked on the dopamine.

At Inspiring Change, we help our clients to implement sustainable change and drive business performance by putting their people first. We do that through a focus on strategic internal communications, employee engagement, and leadership consultancy. If you're struggling with change or getting your people aligned behind your purpose, vision, or strategy, then get in touch. Simply visit our website at www.inspiringchange.ie. .ie for more. What a very, very interesting piece of research. And it's amazing because when you bring that, you know, down from the, the heady heights of, you know, the head of, the head of Australia Post or the Dutch royal family, um, and you kind of look at it in the day-to-day just of leaders in general, I mean, I presume that, that research and, and that physiological change happens down to team leaders and supervisors in companies all over the world, because we've all seen examples of people doing things and saying things that you just kind of, you do exactly that. You kind of go, I can't believe you just actually said that. So I presume on maybe on a smaller scale, it's true at all levels of leadership in organizations.

Absolutely. I can think of one of my very first leadership roles in Canada. I was captain of the school patrols. So the school patrols are like, you wore like a high-vis vest and you helped people cross the road at the zebra crossings. That's what a school patrol was. And there was very simple rules, you know, you walked across the zebra crossing, you know, and you put your flag out to stop traffic and you walked across. Those were the rules. And I remember at the end of my shift, after everybody cleared off, I ran across the zebra crossing. And my sister was on the other side and she's like, like, "Hey, you're not supposed to run and you're captain of the patrols." And it was my first lesson in hypocrisy. And thinking about it now, I'm like, "Oh, you're right." Like, what made me think that I was above the rules? And it was like all this power of having the little badge that was captain of patrols meant I can do what I want. And that was my first taste of it. And thank goodness for my sister who brought me down a peg or two.

Called you out.

That's right. She's like, "Oh, you hypocrite." I'm like, not that she knew that word the age of 10. That was essentially it. And that was my very first important leadership lesson. And I think we can get hooked by that all the time. You know, I think it's very easy to throw stones and say, "Oh, they're greedy bastards. They've got no morals. They're unethical." But I think if we think about our own leadership experience, there's probably been times when we've let that little piece of power and authority push us into a version of ourselves we're not that proud of.

Yeah, yeah. And I still think about a couple of times I've been in those situations and said something or done something, and now that I'm kind of bigger and older and I know more things, um, I can look back and I, I do kind of have my head in my hands going, oh my God, I can't believe I did that or said that. Or, or, yeah, yeah, nothing illegal. I'd just like to point out in case anybody's listening that thinks it might have been illegal, it was nothing illegal. But yeah, no, it's incredible, isn't it? And that whole, I think that whole lack of self-awareness, I don't, you know, I We said before we came on the pod, you know, we were chatting about, you know, my love of tone of voice and writing and words and trying to help people change their writing style and change how they write to make themselves maybe a little more human, a little more clear, a little more empathetic. And actually people just don't realize that the language they use sometimes is wrong and, you know, just not fit for purpose anymore. And, but they just, until somebody realizes there's a problem or an issue or they can do better, they don't tend to want to change. So it's interesting that actually it's a physiological thing that we probably maybe don't even realize is going on.

In terms of resistance to change?

Yeah.

Hmm. Yeah, I think so. I mean, there's something very comforting in the familiar, and it is confronting when you realize that something you're doing is having a negative impact that you hadn't intended. There's, I think there's a twig, a twig of shame with that. And that's probably why generally people don't seek out feedback. And it takes a little bit of concerted effort to develop the kind of skin that is happy to receive feedback. And it's actually a later stage of leadership maturity where feedback becomes a little bit more accepted as part of the natural process and order of things and has less of that twingy effect on you, and that you can actively seek it out. I mean, I still work on this all the time. You know, I tell my team like, Feedback is really important. This is, if you don't like what I'm doing or saying, or you have better ideas, please say it. And I feel like I unleashed the beast with that.

These are very happy people. Be careful what you wish for.

That's right, that's right. My business manager is very clear to point out when I'm doing something stupid or when, for example, I often type too quickly and publish things too quickly and stuff goes up with typos, which drives her insane as a comms expert. She's like, I had one yesterday. She's like, "I think you might need to fix that typo on Facebook posts you put up." I'm like, "Oh God." Seriously? Like, yeah.

Oh, well. And she's got a point.

Yeah, she does have a point. She has a point. She goes, "It affects your image. You look really unprofessional." I'm like, "Yeah, I know." So anyway, when you ask for feedback, you have to be prepared that people are going to share. And we're all healthier and better for it. And yet it can still feel like a little bit of, a little bit of crumpling of your soul or your heart a little bit when you thought you were doing a good job and maybe not so much. So yeah, it is a physiological response. People do feel threat with feedback often, and we as leaders need to set the scene so that feedback becomes a welcome and wanted thing. And one of the things I tell the leaders that I work with is that you've got to ask permission for your team to give you feedback. You start the feedback meme, I guess, if you like. Is it okay for, um, that I ask you to give me feedback from time to time? It's really important that I know what I'm doing well and also where I'm going wrong. So the request is always from the team members to you first. And then once you get that, yes, it's okay. Yeah, you can ask me for my feedback. That's fine. Hopefully then you can say, is it okay if I see you doing something really well that I want to emphasize, that I give you feedback on that? And and likewise, if you're doing something I think is holding you back, that I also give you feedback on that? And hopefully they say yes, 'cause then you establish the norm. That's the expectation. You're gonna help me, I'm gonna help you. And that higher intention of being in service to each other can help, I think, take the tension off the feedback threat and make it more of an invitation and a shared journey.

Yeah, and just even how that language, I mean, the language used there, I love how you couch that whole idea of, you know, I'm gonna give you some feedback to help you with things that are stopping you getting on, you know, as opposed to things you're doing wrong, things you're doing badly, things you're not doing correctly, things you're not doing the way that I want you to do them. I think again, you know, when it comes back to, you know, that's why I have such a love and a passion for words, that they do make a huge difference. And I think it was John Simmons, the guy that actually invented the whole idea of tone of voice, who's written loads of books on the subject, Scott McInnes, he was on the podcast a while ago, and he said, "If you're going to use words, you might as well use the best ones you can." Yeah, I think that's a beautiful observation.

And the craft of writing and the craft of communication is truly an art, and we do take it for granted. And before you hit record, we were talking about the process I'm having with reading my own book into an audiobook, and I'm like, "Oh." And it's such a distraction. You haven't spent enough time crafting your words. It's almost a disservice to the reader. And I think as leaders, we need to really be thinking about our communication strategies and what is the language that we're gonna use. And I think you're right, like so many leaders do things impulsively when it comes to interacting with others, do as I say, a little bit too commanding and not enough asking. And there is a real craft in leadership communication with a few tweaks of language could be really important. One of my favorites, and you're probably familiar with this, is dropping the word "but" from your lexicon. So when you give a message to someone, it's like, "I hear what you're saying, and we also need to consider this," as opposed to, "I hear what you're saying, but my opinion's more important than yours." That's like an example of a one-word switch that makes a massive impact.

Yeah, yeah, it certainly does. Let's change tack ever so slightly for a minute, because I want to talk about something or somebody you talked in the book, talked about in the book, Mary Robinson, who is a two-time, for those of you who don't live here, a two-time president of Ireland. She served 14 years as president. She's somewhat of a darling in Ireland. Everybody loved her. There was nobody really who didn't love Mary Robinson. And she was president actually before I came here. So, you know, in that book, you refer to her as one of the most amazing leaders on the global stage. And I wonder, Specifically, why is that? And what is it that she's doing, or what is it that she does or did that makes her that, that makes her different to others?

For me, she exemplifies the perfect practice of perspective. And so the focus of my book, People Stuff, is really the practice of perspective, how we see ourselves, how we see others, how we see the bigger picture. And what I have read about Mary, I haven't lived under her leadership in Ireland, what I have read about her and what she says in her autobiography rings all the perspective bells for me. So what I mean by that is that the best form of leadership has a depth of perspective. You can see far, deep, and wide into the future, and you consider far, deep, and wide into the past. So the horizons within which elders, I call them, contend are enormous. So they have a different sense of custodianship than day-to-day leaders. So their custodianship is like, how will this affect generations into the future? How broad is my stakeholder container? You spoke earlier about, you know, move away from shareholders to considering stakeholders, and elders have a very huge concept of, of where the ripple effect goes in terms of their stakeholders. And for Mary, this is what I've, I've discerned from reading about her, is that her sense of stakeholders is is everybody on the planet, so all of humanity and the planet itself. So it's essentially all of existence, which is a pretty big pond, I guess, for your leadership concern to play in. So that's the one element of the practice of perspective, is who are you serving, how far into the future and past are you looking, and what are the systems that you're playing with. And one of her— her foundation talks about climate change affecting poverty, and it's the poor people who are going to be the biggest victims of climate change. And for me, linking those two ideas together is an example of having done big picture thinking. Um, so looking far and deep and wide into the future, in the past, what's happening, how's it all affecting everyone, and realizing that climate change is a humanitarian crisis, not just an ecological one, and that they're all combined together. And her main mantra is, we're all in this together. And for me, that mantra is something that resonates deeply for me. And I think it's something that we can all aspire to carry with us no matter what our circle of influence is. So the other key components to elderdom and what I admire about her is, it's all, it sounds very altruistic, you know, everybody, all of existence is what I care about. It sounds very fluffy. And yet we've got to bring it down to brass tacks here and now, you know, what decisions do we make? Now that are going to help people now and into the future. And we balance that by having wisdom and compassion. Wisdom is the best of our mind, bringing the best of our intelligence and our practice of decision-making and consideration, and compassion, the best of our heart, so that we can make both sensible and sensitive decisions. And the combination of the two is what makes an elder. It's not just— it's all about the logic, and it's not just all about the sentiment. It's actually how those have a play together. So for me, what I've read of Mary Robinson is that she brings all of those into the work that she's done, and each of her different roles. And so I think that's— I love that, that somebody is able to have brought those elements together through all of her roles and continues to be of service to the greater good. I think we can take elements of that, even if we don't aspire to or have any way of leading on a global stage, like she has done and is doing, if we can bring that to our daily practice, then we'll definitely be better leaders. So for the young tradesman who is leading a small team of workers, how can you bring elderdom into the work that you're doing? Because it feels, you know, leading for humanity seems very far away from having to deal with the workload that you've got with your team of 5. And yet, if you think, "Okay, here and now, we've got to contend with these urgent matters. How can I bring wisdom, compassion to the moment right now to make sure that everybody's set up, and every little thing that I do for these people has a ripple effect that has long-term implications?" The work that we're providing to these 5 guys, or 5 ladies, 5 people, is supporting families, which is supporting the future of the country. So you can actually visualize the impact of what you're doing. And I think when we consider that as a sacred duty, then the words that we choose, the actions that we take, take on more eminence and more sacredness to it, I guess. So we can be a little bit more careful in what we choose to do and how we choose to show up. So it doesn't matter if we're leading a small team of 5 in a project-based enterprise, or whether we are on the global stage talking about poverty and the elimination of slavery or whatever it is, All of us can be acting through that lens, and I think that will make a significant difference to the rising tide, and the rising tide of goodness, beauty, and truth, which I think we can bring to the table more and more as leaders.

It's interesting that you've used the word shadow a couple of times, and having had a look through the book, that whole idea of shadow is the kind of the flip side of the coin. So What happens when good elders go bad? What's the shadow of an elder?

I think the shadow of an elder is a tyrant. And what drives an elder, you know, if you've mastered all these things, wisdom, compassion, and perspective, how do you go bad? And I think where we started the conversation, it's like, what the— how can people make such crazy decisions? And part of the switch is the power, the power seduction, the seduction of power, I should say. But the switch, the shadow, is for the elder is hubris, is arrogance. So we start to buy our own story about how wonderful we are. And we start to tune into the narrative that we've crafted. And we start to believe it about ourselves that we are the Messiah, so to speak. And the example I give in the book, which I think is just a classic, is Adam Neumann, Adam Neumann, former CEO of WeWork. And we can think about like the premise of WeWork was just remarkable, really. Like, let's bring together solo entrepreneurs into a community-based fabulous enterprise where they can have community, can share resources, and it will be an entity unto itself. And everybody went, yeah, this is a great idea. And it skyrocketed. And so did Adam Neumann's ego. So is the whole power paradox happening in real time. He started to get delusions of grandeur, which is also one of the symptoms of this, uh, broken brain problems with power. And so his delusions of grandeur included wanting to be president of Israel as a starter, uh, president— the first president of the world. Uh, he wanted to take WeWork to Mars. Now Elon Musk also wants to go to Mars, but he wants to colonize Mars for the good of humanity. He doesn't want to plant the Elon Musk flag there. He wants to plant humanities flag there. And Adam Neumann was like, I want to put Adam Neumann's WeWork there. And he started becoming abusive towards his staff, really inaccessible, really intolerant. All the excesses of power started to pop up around him, from hedonism at his summer camp retreats, which had reports of, you know, uh, drug-infused, alcohol-infused orgies and, and abuse happening at these parties. And the whole frat boy fraternity ethos showing up in different work sites, like, it was just a crumbling thing around him. Now, eventually all this came to bite him in the butt. He was ousted, and his— with a giant check, with a giant check. So yeah, did he learn much? Yeah, I don't think so.

Um, no.

So that's like his whole ethos though, right, was an elder-like ethos. This is for the betterment of humanity. This is all about collective collective societies, and it's like it had all the elements of that, and then it fell apart. So that's how I think elders can turn tyrant, and the best— it can happen to the best of us, as we talked about, you know, is we really need to be mindful of where, where is our focus. And there's 3 things I recommend for folks, for us all as leaders, to contend with. They keep us from the hubris trap. And one One is humility. So it is the antidote to hubris. Just remember that as leaders, we really know nothing. There's so much more for us to learn. And to get us into that space is curiosity. We need to stay curious and open to what's going on. What do we think's going on? I keep asking questions. And the third aspect is care. Where, where are we in putting our care? Are we caring for the people around us, or have we just put our care in ourselves? This hubris thing, when I read a little bit more about it, one of the things that the ancient Romans used to do, allegedly, I'm not sure if this is true, but I love this as a story, is that when Roman generals were celebrated and feted in Rome, that they came back after a conquest and they're granted a triumph, which is a massive celebration in the city, and the generals were feted as these gods, essentially, they had And these generals made sure that they had a slave riding behind them in the chariot. And the slave was tasked with one thing, to whisper in their ear as they paraded to the throngs, through the crowds, like cheering for them, to say to them, "Remember, you are mortal." And yeah, you—

Brilliant.

Remember, you are mortal. And it was meant to cut the strings of hubris and keep them grounded. Because you know what happened to Julius Caesar? They often say that it was his hubris that kept him from heeding the warning about the Ides of March. And that didn't end so well for him. Hmm. Hmm.

Interesting. So CEOs out there, if you're feeling a little hubris, then you need to get somebody living in an anteroom beside your office just to whisper in your ear, you are mortal. You are mortal. Listen, I'm conscious of time. You've been brilliant. We've been in here for 45 minutes or so. Why don't you tell me a little bit about the book, and just briefly, and where people can get hold of you?

Okay, so this book, The People Stuff: Beyond Personality Problems: An Advanced Handbook for Leadership, is a leader's insight into developing perspective. So there's the practice of perspective that's a big part of the first chapter. We look at archetypes for leaders, so what kind of lens you can put onto yourself so that you can lead better. It talks about the 4 devils of people stuff, so the nitty-gritty of the kind of behavior that drives you nuts and how you can contend with it, and then move to developing a grandiose humanitarian ecological perspective, as we talked about when it comes with Mary Robinson as an example of that. You can find me at zoerowth.com. That's like mouth with an R, Z-O-E-R-O-U-T-H. LinkedIn is where I hang out a lot. And then my podcast, which is Zoe Routh, The Zoe Routh Leadership Podcast, very creative name.

In fairness, it's about as creative as the Inspiring Change podcast by Inspiring Change. So we're both in that same boat. Zoe, it's been an absolute pleasure talking to you. Thanks very much for coming on the podcast this morning, and you go off and enjoy a glass of wine and your weekend.

Thank you, Scott. It's been an absolute privilege to be here. Thank you so much.

Thanks for listening. To hear from other leaders in our podcasts, to read our blogs, or to find out more about the work that we do at Inspiring Change, please visit inspiringchange.ie.