EP 580 – Gamifying Your Credit Card Points With Jack Krupey

This is the no Closer show where you get the latest developments in distressed note investing and learn the secrets of how you can control millions of dollars worth of property for pennies on the dollar. Get educated and entertained by someone who has closed thousands of deals and lives to support you in achieving the same. Now, here's your host, CEO of We Close Notes, Scott Carson. Hey, not nation. Scott Carson here. And I'm excited for this episode of the Note Closure Show. So many of us as entrepreneurs are traveling. You travel for workshops, you travel for seminars, you travel for vacation. You're traveling to look at property. A lot of us have some pretty hectic travel schedule or using our credit cards to build points or a variety of things. Would love to get a lot more points. Well, I'm really excited that my good buddy Jack Kruepe is going to join us on this episode of the no Clues Show. Jackson, I've known him for years, over a decade in the note business. One of the first guys I was buying deals from and he has done a great job how to leverage his points, his credit cards and all his rewards basically fly and travel for almost for free or at a really reduced cost. So I guarantee if you ever want to do that, listen into this episode and I guarantee Jack will help you take it top when it comes to it. Good morning, good afternoon, and good evening, everybody. Welcome to this episode of the no Closure Show. As always, Scott Carson. Excited to be here with the day. Yes, I'm coming from the virtual beaches as we're kind of quarantined here. For those that are watching the video, those that are listening, hopefully everybody is safe in notenation and you're doing well. Obviously taking precautions and just being safe and having some common sense I think is the most important thing. And of course, wash your hands. But on today's episode, we're going to take a little bit of a different twist and some things and I think you guys are going to love this. You're going to want to mention you pull out a piece of paper or you step off the treadmill or you pull over because you're going to want to take some notes on today's episode. Episode. I'm honored to have a good buddy of mine that we go back, golly, I think almost a decade now based on where everything is at in the market and how we met originally. But this guy is a longtime friend of mine from the note business. He founded a trading firm that merged a large private equity fund, a big, big fund that was focused on buying bankruptcy notes and he left last year recently to preserve consulting and other investment opportunities. But this guy started off in Rochester, New York. I was about to say Rochester, Minnesota, because that's where I was originally born. But Rochester, New York, buying rentals, fixing flips, and this guy has just amazing stuff. Everywhere he's gone, he's grown. He's just taking leaps and bounds and doing some great things like that. In addition to still being involved in the no knit business, he's going to share about one of his passion projects that you all can implement using credit card points and miles to travel the world for almost for free. So we're honored to have the man, the myth, the legend, my buddy Jack Krupie, join us this morning. Hey, how's it going today, Jack?

Doing great, Scott. Thanks for having me honored, man.

You've done some great things and traveling all across the world. And why don't you kind of give us a little bit more background or how you got decided to make that pivot into what you're doing right now.

Sure, sure. So as the firm grew, I was traveling a lot more for conferences to visit vendors, servicers, and our business expenses also started growing. So I was, you know, had tens of thousands of dollars a month in travel and business expenses. And I'd heard through a friend of a friend that was able to fly business class for free. As a fellow big guy like you are, I really despise FL back of a plane or in the middle seat. So I really just wanted to figure out a way to do that economically. I found some of the more famous blogs like Points Guy and started researching and also always looking for different investment opportunities. So over the course of a few years, I learned a number of the tricks on how to generate Amex points, chase Sapphire points and transfer them to airlines and fly business class or first class for in some cases for free, in some cases few hundred dollars in value. And it was really money I was already spending. So the first thing I'll say is I'm not going to advocate for anyone to just run up credit card debt. This is really targeted to especially your network of note investors, real estate investors, people that likely already spend $20,000 a month at Home Depot, for example. And should you put that on a card that gets 2% cash back or could you put that on a card that earns points worth 5 to 10 cents a point if your goal is to maybe fly to the Maldives or go to Tahiti or just take one of these epic vacations, which is something I'd be able to do a lot of over the last couple years. So the reason I really got started is actually found a mistake. Fair. I actually remember it was Christmas Day. Actually, no, the day after Christmas 2014. I was sitting home and for about two hours Delta had mispriced pretty much their entire inventory. And I was on a site called Google Flights, which you could basically put a map up and it'll give you from your home airport all the prices in different markets. So I just pulled it up just for fun and I saw that Hawaii was $36 for an economy ticket. At the time it seemed cheap, but I wasn't necessarily pricing out Hawaii. But then I switched to business class and it was $140 round trip for an 11 hour flight in business class on Delta. I called my wife at work and I was just playing with random days and I was just like, should we do it? And we just decided of course, even if we can't go for $140. We booked a Valentine's week trip to Hawaii. And that was the first time I'd flown a real business class where the seats lay flat. And I was just hooked from there and spent the next couple of years of my life just const reading blogs and forums and trying to find every tip and trick. And then coincidentally, as part of my investing research, I came across a number of advisory firms that actually sell operating websites that are actually making money. And many of these sites you can buy at three times annual profits. And I actually found a site in the Points and Miles space, so it seemed like fate. I'd been looking at potentially buying blogs or other cash flowing assets online stores and when I found a site that was in the Points and Miles credit card space, it seemed like fate. I purchased a site called creditshout.com in March of 2017 and it's been around since 2009 and I'm the third owner of the site at this point, but has roughly 1,800 pages of articles and blog posts and tips and tricks. And I'm adding my own spin to it with some more detailed Points and Miles posts. Sorry, that was a long intro.

No, no, it's great stuff. There's nothing wrong with that at all because that's a good kind of where it goes to. And I think some people don't think about that. We talk about debt both in the mortgage space and I always make the rain joke that if you're not in the note space, you already are because you're usually paying out versus it coming in to you. In a variety of way with assets. And you're just leveraged what you've already paying out expenses, travel costs, day in day out operation stuff to help you pay for these to get the points to transfer over there. Where's the good starting point? Are we talking these are major credit cards like from a major bank that backing them or are we talking they're like a subset of.

Yeah, it's definitely major credit cards. I really prefer to use what the transferable points currencies, which is Amex, Chase as the two major carriers, then in some cases Marriott and now Capital One and Citi all have points that you can transfer to different carriers. And generally you get more of a bang for your buck using either an Amex Gold for example, or a Chase Sapphire preferred or reserve than using an airline card or hotel card. For example, I have a Delta card which I use for certain status benefits, but for my day to day spend, an Amex Gold card you get four times points on all restaurants and three times points on all grocery spend. Whereas Delta for the same spend, if you use a Delta Sky Miles card, you're only getting one point per dollar. And to make things even better, Amex points will transfer directly to Delta. So if you want to earn Delta miles, you can still do that. I know you're a Southwest guy primarily, but other than the status, similarly a Chase Sapphire reserve card you earn three times points on restaurants and all travel and those will transfer to Southwest. So as long as you're not spending specifically for the companion pass, you're actually better off using those cards for your day to day spend. And both of those cards do have annual fees, but there's a fair amount of benefits you get with those that generally offset the annual fee. And one of the best tricks I have is to actually hold a fee version and a no fee version of the same card. So for example, Amex has a Gold card where you earn the four times on restaurants, three times on groceries. Amex also has the Everyday card where you earn one and a half times points on all your other spend. And this way no matter what you're earning roughly 3 to 4 cents per dollar spent, depending on where you value the Amex points. Generally the floor is $0.01 per point, but generally I think the points are worth at least 2 cents apiece and I've redeemed them. For example, I flew Lufthansa first class where a round trip ticket is $15,000 and I used 200,000 points for a $15,000 flight. That's the type of it's like a bucket list type item. I would never spend that amount of money to fly Lufthansa, even though it was an amazing experience.

The thing is, hey, when you're traveling back and forth, because you've been traveling quite a bit recently, not just domestically, but internationally, back and forth for a variety of reasons, you want to share what doing that and why this is really valuable.

Sure. So as I was winding down my time at my fund, I was looking at doing an executive MBA program, Master's in business. And I went to a few different info sessions. And what I found is people that did the global programs really enjoyed them. You're generally with a slightly older and more established group of more senior executives and you actually visit different countries and stay in a hotel with your entire class and you take a week at a time and you take one or two classes with people from all over the world. And I actually was able to get into the Kellogg program in partnership with Hong Kong University of Science and Technology. So every six weeks or so I flew to Hong Kong over the last year. And that's something I never would have been able to do or wanted to do if I was flying in a middle seat in coach for 15 hours. But fortunately, over the last year, I sort of used it as a game and a challenge. And I was able to fly used Amex points to fly Japan Airlines. I used Alaska miles to fly Cathay Pacific and tried all these different airlines and was able to also visit a number of other cities too. So from Hong Kong, it's so centrally located in Asia, I was able to visit Chiang Mai and Thailand and Japan and Korea. And it was pretty incredible experience that I never would have been able to do. I've also taken three day weekends to Europe. If I had to sit in the back of the plane, I probably wouldn't have done it. But for practically free, I've been able to visit friends at Amsterdam. I actually ran into Wayne Snell, another note investor in Amsterdam, randomly. He was there for a concert and I was just passing through. And it's unlocked a number of incredible experiences.

And that's the beauty of it. If you know how to leverage that and know the value in what your cards offer and the multipliers and who does what, it's a really valuable thing. And you outline a lot of this on your website, correct with the different points and hey, use this for that. Or if you're doing this, like you just said, you gave a very valuable tip. Hey, if you've got a fee version of the America's best gold card or the non fee one, take it. Different advantages, use them for different things, correct?

Absolutely. Yeah. And there's a lot of content and we're continuing to build out the content on the cards and more than willing to do question and answers via email or via Facebook page. So I sort of got into this because a lot of my friends started asking me, hey, what do I do? Or I have this many miles here, I want to go on this vacation, how do I do it? Or friends that are business owners that just never paid attention to it and said, I'm spending $30,000 a month on expenses and I'm just using my standard amex platinum card and should I be using something else or what can I do with these miles? And I found in this industry, with so many real estate investors, we're the type of industry that could really take advantage of this. And it seems like it's something that falls to the crack and people are focused on their daily lives. Very simple thing to do to own a lot of opportunities. And there's also domestic opportunities too. I don't have kids, so I'm able to travel the world a little more freely. But I know people who've taken their families to all inclusive Hyatt properties on points and miles either through the Hyatt card or through Chase Sapphire program. Those points transfer to Hyatt at very good rates. So you can go to Cancun, Jamaica Cabo and stay in really nice four or five star all inclusive resorts on points of miles, which saves thousands and thousands of dollars.

So if you take a look at what you're basically okay. And this helps. I think uni's also an accountant too as well too with everything. She can help keep track of that. But you just take a look at, okay, what are we spending on? And okay, that we're gonna put it on the card and just pay it off at the end of the month versus using our debit cards from our account so that we can maximize.

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Again, I never advocate carrying a balance. And actually it's funny because you need my wife. She gives me some crap sometimes because a little bit all over the place and sort of ready, fire, aim. In certain parts of my life, but on the credit cards, I've literally put a post it note on her credit card, say used at the grocery store. Use this for this expense. And she goes, you're so detailed with this. Why can't you remember to put your socks in the hamper?

I think every man worries with getting their socks in the hamper.

Yeah.

Besides, what was the biggest thing initially now? Latanza. That's a great thing, flying, that latanza. What's another thing that you were just kind of surprised, like, oh my God, I can do this thing. What was kind of the big first surprise for you with everything you're doing with your credit card?

How quickly the points seem to add up without really trying. When you're earning four times points for restaurant spend, and at the time I was living in New York City, and restaurant and groceries are probably the two biggest expenses I'd imagine for most people in this country, those are some of the highest expenses. So if you're spending a few thousand a month on groceries, if you do this for a year and pay it off at the end of the month just like you would anyway, you could have over 100,000 points. There's also pretty lucrative signup bonuses. So the first year or two, I'm not advocating to purposely get a card just for the bonus, but again, there's different cards for different purposes. So over the first few years, you can amass a few hundred thousand extra points just from welcome bonuses for spending a few thousand over a few months. Again, a lot of the annual fees are paid through certain benefits. So I do hold a few Marriott cards because they give one free night and it's an $89 annual fee, but I'm usually getting $150 hotel room. And when you spend specifically on that hotel room, it gives you four times points on your spend. So it does make sense to do that how quickly they added up. I probably built up a million plus miles in the first year just from a couple credit card bonuses and just focusing on being efficient with my spending. Then you could be that person at the restaurant. You're out with a group and some people have cash. Throw your card in and take cash from everybody else. That's an easy way to run up a lot of points without actually spending more money.

You reminded me of the movie up in the Air with George Clooney, Anna Kendrick.

Four million points.

Four million points. Have the pilot come out and say, it's nice to meet you, here's your card.

Yeah, yeah. I'm actually a lot like him, except for the looks department.

Well, you can travel a lot, just carry a backpack with you in a lot of cases, right?

Yeah.

For those that are listening to this episode, you may want to go on over to the YouTube channel and watch it, because I pulled up a website, creditshot.com, and you've got just kind of scrolling through you get some featured articles on here, your best cash back cards, the best credit cards with your editor's picks, top deals. You really do have a lot of great stuff. Best Air miles Wow, you've got great articles on this stuff and really deliver a lot of things. You talk about some other things that you do besides credit cards too. Different wireless things and stuff like that too.

Yeah. Actually one of the articles that actually gets a lot of traffic here is people trying to figure out what credit score you need for cell phones. Given the iPhones are over a they do run a credit check in order to get a cell phone. So there's some information on Verizon and AT&T and what their requirements are. Most of your listeners that are full time real estate investors may be less concerned about getting approved for a cell phone, but it does have some interesting information available. We're working through the Beginner's Guide is ongoing. That post is going to be updated regularly. I'm really working through most of what we're talking about here, trying to update reviews for every single card and does talk a little bit about the transferable points that I covered here first actually covers sort of how to get your score for free. We have L Credit Karma, Credit Sesame and then which types of points depending on what your goals are. If you're looking to fly, fly in business class. Probably the best. I keep going back to that because I think if you like to do that, it's the overall best value. Sometimes you're getting 10, 15 cents a point for those types of trips, but it covers hotels and other avenues as well. What I'm going to work towards over time is some of the interesting loopholes I mentioned. It's a lot of my friends call me for advice on more custom trips and that's really where again, there's so much content. It's so hard to get it all on paper. But it's a lot of the obscure foreign programs for for example, you could transfer American Express points to All Nippon Airlines. It's Japan's number two carrier and they have some incredible rates where United may charge you 115,000 miles each way, Ana may charge 60,000 miles each way. So almost half the price to book on a foreign carrier. In some cases you could actually book United flights using a foreign carrier at the same price. That's the same thing for Delta. You could use Virgin Atlantic miles and actually book Delta flights cheaper than Delta itself.

We've experienced that when we've flown on Virgin when we fly overseas, we don't fly the first class. We take the business class seats because you can get some really great deals there and transfer back and find some really great books. I'm willing to imagine with everything going on, travel is going to get even cheaper as the airlines are trying to bring people back in and trying to get comfortable traveling more. So what's your opinion on that?

Yeah, yeah, I think a travel is going to be cheaper for the short term. They definitely I'm even seeing it now that's trying to incentivize bookings for summer or fall and certainly I think it's important the next few weeks to stay safe, stay hunkered down and follow the rules. But I personally am looking for speculative bookings in the fall. If I find a great deal in September, October to go somewhere, I'm not afraid to book it now. Points and miles are also more available. When planes are full, they always have space available for award tickets, but not on every flight every day. It's going to be much easier now to book something on points and most of those points bookings are actually fully changeable up until sometimes 72 hours beforehand. So if you want to speculatively book trip to Europe, now's a great time to look for options. Yeah, I think so. It's also, I think in a way it's patriotic to support the airline, support the businesses and help them with their cash flow and find a great trip for yourself.

Yeah, that's the thing. I was looking at the news last night and they were talking about how hotel bookings are down to 50% compared to normal, 75, 80% compared to where it is now versus it was a month ago. And then the room rates versus an average, it's just here in Austin, average rates were like 175. A night is down to 125. And of course that helps because south by Southwest was going on. It was supposed to be taking place here last year, but now it's obviously canceled. But there's also an example of something drastically happened like with the cruise lines. We're a big fan of cruises and Disney is doing a thing, hey, book a cruise right now. If we end up having to cancel, we'll give you 125% of value of what you paid towards a new one and then you can obviously use points to pay for that and then hey, come out even bigger ahead for a bigger cruise if you wanted to.

Yeah, it's better than the unfortunate joke of buy a one week cruise, get two weeks free because you're under quarantine.

Buy one, get two weeks free.

Yeah, it's sort of gallows humor. It's better to laugh than to cry with what's going on there. But, yeah, the points are 100% true, and I think this thing will run its course and we're taking drastic steps and things will stabilize in the coming weeks. And, yeah, I think it's good. People have a lot of time at home right now, too, so it's a good time to do a little research and try to find a way to get out of the house after being cooped up in the house for.

Yeah, exactly. I had a student of mine who did one card. He owned a supplement company, and he paid for every bit of shipping was charged through his amex Gold card or silver card every month. So he literally was taking those points and doing everything he wanted, travel and all stuff. So this is a couple years ago, but it's evolved. It keeps getting more and more advanced and different things and perks are becoming much more available. Like you said, different hotel cars, different airline cards. You just got to know that, like what you said was, if they had, you can book. If you go to Virgin, try to book a flight with Delta there. It's often cheaper in Virgin versus the other way around because we've seen that where we've been supposed to be flying on Virgin, but it's been operated by a different carrier and vice versa. And the fact that points can transfer, hey, makes it often a lot easier versus just being silent. And we fly religiously on Southwest because it's an easy in and out. And I'm using the first guide on, so I get the exit row seat for the extra room. Or if I got Stefan next to me, I can have hangover, an arm into her lap most of the time. And she doesn't get too mad most of the time, just give her a Bloody Mary and she's good to go. But that's the thing is, look at what you're doing. You can capitalize on some of the stuff. Have you had the credit cards send you any other stuff? I mean, are you getting other increased lines of credit as you're using? This is your balances, not your balances, but your limits going up because you're using this and cashing them in and out on a regular basis?

Yeah, yeah. And actually my score actually went up as well. I had a, you know, a couple challenges after 2008, so my score wasn't exactly perfect post financial crisis. But one of the things is a Lot of people get concerned of having too many cards and doesn't hurt your credit score. Now, if you're going to get a mortgage in two weeks, maybe it's not the time to open a card. But the major metrics that the banks use is what is your credit, what have you drawn on your cards versus your available credit. So if you only have one card and you have a $20,000 limit and you spend 15,000 at Home Depot, and even if you pay it off in two weeks before the end of the month for that period of time, your score is going to drop. However, if you have four or five cards and now you have 100,000 in available credit and you have that same $15,000 bill at Home Depot, you're below 30% utilization and that actually helps things. So it's actually good to have a few cards and a few options as long as you're not carrying a balance. A lot of the cards have different perks and they'll run short term spending bonuses. Spend 2,000 on this card this month will give you triple points. Amex and Chase both have offer where you'll get 15% off on Macy's one month. Or Chase, for example, has rotating bonuses to their Freedom card, which is their free card every quarter they have a 5%, they call it cash back. But when you have the Chase card, the Chase Freedom and you have the Chase Sapphire, you could transfer points between them. So it's essentially five times points if you want it that way. Sometimes it's on gas, sometimes it's on a certain store. I get $100 off on Dell every six months from Amex. It's hard to track, but there's a lot of different things. One of the other things I use is a Ward wallet, sort of like mint.com but for tracking your airline programs. Because I've signed up for a lot of obscure programs like Ana Air. I don't just have Delta and Southwest. I probably have 20 different frequent flyer accounts. And you put in your usernames and passwords and it tracks all your miles. It'll actually tell you if something's going to expire. That's another valuable thing is I've helped people save hundreds of thousands of miles that were going to expire just by transferring 1000AmEx points. We'll keep the miles alive for another year. Or in some cases you just sign up for a magazine subscription. Or there's dining programs where you link your card to a dining program. There's so many little intricacies that don't take much time but really do add up over time and it's kind of addicting. I think certain people, if you're the type of person that gets into trying to be efficient, make a few extra bucks, it gets addicting. It's a bit of an art. I feel like most guys that play poker also love points.

Yeah, I was going to get to it's definitely another version of poker for the most part. Or is it debt game and things like that. Just figuring out how can I use this to transfer income out ahead or vice versa, how can I? And there's a lot of ways to know. A lot of little backdoor loopholes that you don't know you're going to miss out on things. But Jack has done a really good job and that website has done really well. Any other websites? Just curious, are there any other websites you've purchased that have been valuable with you, with the. The optimization that you're seeing?

So I have one other one that's in a joint venture and it's actually called a mess free stress free life and it actually sells ebooks on how to organize your house, which is very ironic because I'm not very organized, but I actually purchased that in a joint venture with another group that's sort of a property manager for web businesses. So this is a pretty new initiative for me. I'm looking very heavily at sort of everything from cash flowing blogs, blogs that sell ebooks to My wife's actually been pursuing Amazon. There's Amazon businesses for sale. There's a little tricky time for that now, but people will import products from Alibaba and set them up on Amazon. It's a relatively turnkey business. You do need to order products. There's a lot of research to get it started, but once it's up and running and you're ranking, it's another cash flow stream. I really look at it as digital real estate. The returns can be pretty lucrative. It reminds me a bit of notes in 2008, 9 and 10, when the returns were quite lucrative. Digging in pretty heavily in that space. I may actually launch a small syndication at some point later this year, but I'm still sort of working out the cakes on my own properties for now.

Where do you think the I think we're going to see not a repeat of 2008-2009, but we'll definitely see a bit of a tick in the market when it comes to foreclosures and defaults here with everything going on, don't you think? A little bit.

I Think so. And I hope that pricing at an institutional level has got really really aggressive over the last or two. So I certainly don't wish any heartache on actual homeowners to actually default. But my hope is that this scare and what's going on in the overall credit markets does maybe bring pricing down a few notches. I think the larger seller is going to price in maybe slightly longer timelines and just more defaults because of dubs and more loans will shake loose and be available for the smaller buyers which at this point that's what I am again I'm consulting and then working in house brokering some larger deals for client but otherwise I'm still looking to buy some loans personally too. Yeah, but I hope it recovers. I don't think we're going to be in the same Real estate's not the cause of the issue this time. Sort of a short term panic I think I've always preached modify the loans when it makes sense. So I think a lot of these situations where people had a short term hiccup, it was a great opportunity to buy something and then do a modification, either forgive or put a couple of payments at the end of the loan and help borrowers re perform and that market I think will continue. The reperforming market back when you and I met barely existed and I think in some cases you were afraid to loan and reperform because it might not be worth, might be worth less. But with interest rates going to zero there's a huge demand for performing cash flowing paper. And if you have mortgages at 3, 4, 5, 6% that's 3% higher than the Fed rate. So I do think there'll be continued demand for performing paper.

Yeah definitely and I agree completely with it. Most people don't know but Jack and I met for me doing a sweaty ass video and throwing it on YouTube on a condo walkthrough that I was doing originally back in the day and he was doing, he bought a couple notes from Chase bank on two condos in the same unit and my video was the only bit of marketing you could find on that complex out there. And so I got a phone call from the guy, a New York number and I seen these other two assets on another tape. We looked at the same tape he bought and beat me to him. But when he, it was funny, he called me, I was like are you calling about 105 and 107? He's like what the hell? And we just hit it off from there. So good stuff. Well Jack, I Appreciate you coming on here, man. It is exciting. As we say, everybody's in the note business. You just have turned the credit card flow more back towards your way versus just the outflow, which is awesome there for you. So thanks so much. How can people. What's the best way for people to connect? We're gonna hold. You just go straight to the website at Credit Shout.

Yeah. From the website you email us@credeshoutmail.com we have an Instagram and a Facebook page and certainly there are some affiliate links on the site. So if you're thinking of applying for car, feel free to email or reach out online for some customized advice. Then, you know, we'd appreciate if you, if you go to creditshout.com first and then click through to one of the affiliates if you're going to apply. And again, we're certainly, especially for all your listeners, happy to give some our guidance on what we think is maybe the best fit for you.

Awesome. Good stuff there, Jack. Well, hey, man, you have a safe quarantine there in Puerto Rico, my friend. Enjoy it. You're in San Juan, right?

Yep, right across the street from the beach in San Juan. And I should, I don't know, your background looks better than mine just because I'm in my apartment. But yeah, it's been a real pleasure. I'm glad we could catch up and look forward to doing it again.

Yeah, definitely. Sounds great, Jack. All right, guys, well, take Jack upon his advice and his counsel, his experience. These guys been flying all over the place. I crack up with the photos I see every time because he's not a middle seat guy. Neither am I. He's left, like stretched out, laying out. It's almost like they come, they, the, the flight attendants show up with like silk pajamas like from like the Crazy Rich Asians movie, therefore. But anyway, guys, go check it out. Creditshot.com and we'll see you guys all at the top, everybody. Bye.