Marketing to Banks & Acquiring Underperforming Notes featuring Scott Carson: Real Estate For The Rest of Us

I'm Brandon Reed, and you're listening to Real Estate for the Rest of Us, a podcast dedicated to demystifying the world of real estate investing. I want to cut through all the industry jargon and instead serve up actionable and unintimidating information that you can use in your own real estate journey. I interview real estate professionals and we talk about their real life experiences. It's real simple. Now let's get into the show. In today's episode, I talk with Scott Carson of weclosenotes.com Scott is a nationally known expert on buying and selling mortgage notes. He's made a name for himself as, appropriately, the note guy. He's got two podcasts and a successful coaching program that walks students through how to get started in this area of the real estate investing world. You'll hear pretty quickly how passionate Scott is about what he does, and it's honestly no surprise that he's grown his business as quickly as he has. In this episode, I picked Scott's brain more specifically on the marketing side of note investing. How to get in front of the right people that can send you underperforming notes to purchase. The key is persistence. He's been honing his craft for about 10 years and has learned an incredible amount along the way. He's eager to share that knowledge, so soak up everything you can. If what you hear in this episode leaves you wanting more, please go check out his podcast over on weclosenotes.com he's doing an awesome job producing some extremely quality content. I hope that in this interview you find practical insights that you can learn from or directly apply as you continue on your own journey in real estate. And now here's my conversation with Scott. Okay, awesome. Well, today we have Scott Carson with us. Scott, how are you doing today?

I'm doing wonderful, Brandon. Honored to be here, man.

Good. I really appreciate you taking the time. It's really good to have you on. So let me start with the first question here with just a general. How long have you been in the real estate world? And then what got you involved?

Oh, wow, man. I got into the real estate world, really, in 2001. Like many other people out there, I was watching HGTV flip this house, you know? Right, baby. I wanted to pick up painting and paint and carpet, you know.

That's right. That's right.

But not before it. All sincerity. I grew up in a small town. My dad owned the local hardware store. So I grew up kind of doing everything from, you know, putting in a foundation to putting roofs On. So when I graduated college and started a real job, that's one thing we thought about doing. After buying our primary residence when I was married was, hey, we've got good credit. It's a good time to be buying. Let's go ahead and buy a couple rental properties. And that's what we did. And then within a period of about 90 days after funding on our first two investment properties, I got laid off. And the major employer in the area here in Austin is a computer company that rhymes with hell off a bunch of their staff that were my tenants. So, okay, I went from being a, a landlord to being a deadbeat borrower. And fortunately for me, we were able to get our assets out of a sling. We got rid of the two investment properties, kept the primary, got back, you know, got back higher, was making some money. And a couple years later, a buddy of mine came to me, was starting a mortgage company here in Austin that was traveling the country, different real estate investment seminars and doing mortgages for investors. And I knew that's kind of the route I wanted to go. So I jumped on board with him and was fortunate enough to get a. One of the brokers was a big, you know, fix and flipper and a guy that taught owner financing and wraparound mortgages and creative financing. And I had basically from 2004 to 2008, basically an apprenticeship and creative financing and real estate while I was running the mortgage company. And then when everything hit the fan in 2008 with the mortgage debacle, I jumped from the origination side of the business to jumping over on buying distressed debt and mortgages. And that's what I've been doing for the last 10 plus years now.

Okay, so it sounds like, I mean, through the crisis, you know, you, I, I talked to people who, who started in real estate before and after everything fell apart. But it sounds like you had started before, but you just adapted, huh? Just did something different to kind of.

Exactly. Yep.

Yeah. Cool. So what are you currently up to? Tell us a little bit about what you're doing right now.

So what I have kind of built a name for myself is being known as the note guy. Across the country, I buy and sell distressed debt. So I buy mortgages from banks and hedge funds with the sole purpose in mind to try to rehab the borrower. Now, yes, we buy it and we look at the underlying property and the real estate and figure out the value of that, but we're buying the mortgage is usually a substantial discount, usually at $0.50 of current market value or less. So that gives us a lot of flexibility when we approach the borrower and try to work out a payment plan, trying to get them back on track, try to work out some sort of win win solution so that they, you know, can have the, can attain the dream of homeownership and we can return a really good return on investment to us and keep them in the home if possible.

Awesome. So yeah, I know, you know, we've had, we've had some people on the show talking about note investing and I know a little bit about it, but I do know one thing, that you got to get in front of those people who have distressed mortgages and who are in trouble and you got to, you got to find the notes and then you got to get a hold of those people and work out a situation with them so they can just like you said, get to a situation that you both win at. So tell me what I would love to talk to a little to you a little bit about today. Scott would be marketing to those, to those sellers, to people who have distressed real estate situations. And that's, that can obviously take a variety of, that can manifest itself in a variety of ways. But I just want to know a little bit about how you have been getting to sellers. Have you been finding your target market through marketing over the years? So how, how long through all of the things that you've done in real estate, how long have you been actively marketing to sellers as part of your real estate business?

So it's a little bit different animal when you're buying distressed debt because you're not going after, you know, borrow or homeowners on the front end.

Sure, sure.

You know, most inflicts are doing postcards, yellow letters, door knocking, bandit signs. We don't do any of that. Okay. I target the banks because that's where everything is at. And I don't want to go after one house. I want to get on the, in front of the bankers and get hundreds of houses every year from them in a different variety of different lists. So inside the banks, the bigger banks, the smaller banks, they all have a department called the special assets department or they go by secondary marketing department. Either it's either or one of those. And inside those departments they're the people that are looking at the loans portfolio and they're the ones that are handling, moving the non performing notes on either the residential or the commercial assets. So how do we get in touch with those people? It's all basically done electronically these days. I spent a big time, I should say my staff Spends a big amount of time on LinkedIn and we just type in those two job titles and it pulls a search hundreds of thousands of people. So we reach out to them or we use something like Lead Fuse, which is a LinkedIn scrubber that allows for us to pull emails. And then we'll email those asset managers as well, say, hey, we, you know, we're looking to see what you have on your books. Would you have anything with any hair on it? You know, can we help take this off your books for you? You know, clear up your portfolio by the end of the year, the end of the quarter, and we just follow that up. There's also a couple websites like laneguide.com l a n e g d.com which is about $160 a year, that tracks, you know, internal departments of the bank. My buddy Brett Palumbo has a software company called Distress Pro that also tracks the quarterly reports that the, the banks file with the FDIC to see which banks have increased ratios of reserves and then also non performers. So that helps us target the banks that have stuff that we can take a look at and get on their list as an investor that they're, they're sending us out a spreadsheet or as we call it, the industry, a tape every month, every quarter or every six months. And so over the last 10 years, we built a pretty extensive email list of over 5,000 asset managers at banks that we reach out to. And I would love it if they all had something every month, but that's not the case. So. But enough out of 5,000 where we'll get, you know, 10 to 15% open ratio on an email usually leads to a couple lists that come our way that we can cherry pick from or work our way out. And really, you know, it's a beautiful thing when the bank tells you, hey, I'm motivated to move this. And they'll often tell you the price and then you can look at that and see if it makes sense and do your own due diligence. If it makes sense, great. If not, you can counter. If not, you just wait for another list to show up.

Wow, that's interesting. So you, I mean, how I can imagine that those, as you're scrubbing the emails from something like LinkedIn and you're reaching out to these people, aren't they getting, I mean, so many other requests with the same thing? How do you get. Make sure you're at the top of the inbox or that you get replied to.

Actually, they, they aren't. Most people don't know about these little departments.

Interesting.

And well, I'll give you an example. Like a couple of years ago I spent three weeks and over 70 phone calls to get into the head of special assets for Capital One bank. Okay. I can't tell you how many times I got hung up on or transferred to Pakistan or India. It was a lot. But once I got into the department, the lady there says okay, great. She makes me sign an NDA, sends me a list and it was a 33 page PDF with all their small commercial loans that were under a million dollars in balance all across the country in six point font. Okay. Very, very small print because they would squeeze it on there. Well, I make my first offering, we end up closing on a eight unit apartment complex in San Diego for less than 50 cents of value. And the assistant accidentally sends an email out to the entire list and only carbon copies. Everybody doesn't blind carbon copy.

Nice, nice.

And so there was, on that list was 5, 148 note buyers, note investors for all of Capital One's thousands and thousands of assets. So it's a small, we're a smaller niche of people out there. What happens a lot of time in this business brand like anything else. I will say 80% of the sales are made of the fifth contact. So a lot of people, they get, they love the idea, maybe they'll make phone calls and try to, you know, make 50 phone calls one day, but they won't stick to it. Or they'll send one email out one month and then not follow up with those that open the email or never follow back up. So most of our, I'll say our profits, our money is made just the follow up, following up with asset managers on a monthly basis. So that, hey, what do you have this month? You know, I see that you've, you've added some non performers based on your quarterly reports. We can help you with those. So I've only been honestly my 10 years, I've only, I would say it's probably less than 20 times that I've called an asset manager and they've had somebody else that called trying to, you know, dialing for dollars at the same time it's, there's so many lenders out there and so many special assets apartments. They may get emails occasionally from some people, but most people don't follow through. And I'm like a dog on a bone. If you get, if I have a hint that there's a bit of meat out there, I'm gonna, I'm gonna keep I'm gonna hang on to that bone for all my life.

Well, yeah, that's really interesting. That's not what I would have expected that, that not many people are reaching out. I would have figured that your email would have been just one of hundreds and so that's really interesting. So as you have, I'm sure adapted over the year, how long have you been actually been on this side of the business buying notes?

Over a decade now. So I started in 2008 when everything hit the fan and just started dialing for dollars. Because 10 years ago was a much different market than it is today. LinkedIn was barely around and yeah, you know, we, you know, our two biggest things is we do a lot with LinkedIn, we do a lot with email blasts and drip market. You know, I've got 12 months of emails and scheduled to go out to asset managers. So.

Yeah. So over that 10 years, as you just alluded to, what, how have you seen things change? I mean LinkedIn, like you said, wasn't even around. I mean how, how has it, how have you had to adapt? You getting in front of the right people to get the deals.

So as the market's rebounded and the values have gone better, I've had to increase what I pay for is one thing, but it's also, it's literally just fault because people will move from bank to bank. So it's a matter of, it's kind of like a five step approach. One, if we can get their email address, great, we send them an email. If I can connect with them on LinkedIn, I send them a LinkedIn connection and a short message, you know, inside of an InMail or I attach it a little short, like one minute video, a little bit more about who I am. I then follow up with a phone call if I've got their phone number or I call the bank and contract them down. Now that I have a name and a position, if they've opened my email, great, I'll follow up with another email. If they haven't opened up my email, I'll resend that same email. That's it. The first time usually 48 to 72 hours after the first one, but at an opposite time. So it's, it's all about building like marketing systems to be effective where I used to just basically dial for dollar, you know, 50 to 100 phone calls in a day so that, you know, doing it three times a week at the end of like Thursday afternoon I found a whole lot like I'm a FUD because my tongue was so swollen from making so many phone calls. It's almost like a scene out of the movie the Pursuit of Happiness with Will Smith. Yeah, like that or the, the boiler room. Yeah, that's what it seems like a lot. But over time you start developing these relationships with these asset managers and you don't have to do as much phone calls, you don't do as many email blasts. They're going to feed you lists because you're their guy. I mean, or you're the person that just never gives up. And you don't need too many of those banks to be sending you lists on a regular basis to have a very profitable existence.

That's really interesting. And it sounds like you, I mean, it sounds like you've made a lot of changes to make sure that you're continually getting to the right people and getting the deals coming in on a consistent basis. So what, what is something that, that you're doing currently that is a little bit more experimental or cutting edge that you guys haven't done much with before, but you're seeing, seeing some success with. Is there something right now you have that is newer that you.

Yeah, we've been using, we've been using a lot of text message marketing as we build our database with asset managers and also our bot, our note buyers or investors are looking for deals. We've been using, you know, text message marketing. Hey, do you have, you know, send them a text message, hey, what do you have on your books this month that we could take a look at, you know, or hey, we've got a list of Alabama assets and you're on our list of. As an Alabama investor that might be interested. Here's a list of, here's a link to the list of new Alabama assets that we have. And so because people will open a text message about 85% of the time versus an email might be 15% of the time.

Right.

So that's what some of the stuff that we've been incorporating in the last, I guess really the last six months for the most part is just doing that to follow up with the asset managers. We asked them how do you mind if we should text message? You know, you know, we know a lot of people are on their phone versus being on their computer. Do you mind if we just shoot you a quick text? You can always opt out and it's a pretty low opt out rate for the most part. But we, what's great is you, they're responding and getting assets sent to us, which is really nice.

Okay, so I was Gonna say, I bet that phone numbers are obviously much, much harder to get your hands on. But these are after you've established a relationship, you're asking if you can follow up with a text and then that's kind of how you're staying in communication with them.

That's exactly right, Brandon. So we'll reach out to the bank or we can get a name off of Lane Guide or different Mortgage banking association websites across the country as their office number and then through communication back and forth. Hey, do you have your cell phone? You mind if we call on your cell phone or just shoot you a text message so we're not bothering you? Especially because, you know, a lot of these banks have really kind of extensive spam filters. They don't let a lot of attachments come through, things like that. So the more touches that we have for them, the better. And some of us just prefer us to send them an a message on LinkedIn every month versus an email because they actually see that where they may not get our email.

Yeah, that makes sense. Well, I'm curious also to know as you've been doing this for so long and you see people come in the business and come out of the business, what, what's something. As you see people starting on this side of real estate, so no investing, buying non performing mortgages, what do you see as far as the marketing side to stick to that. What do you see? One of the biggest mistakes that new investors that are new to this, what biggest mistake do you see them making? Most?

Not having patience.

Okay.

Most people, when they get into this, they come from a job and they're used to working 40 hours for the man. Right. When they're out doing something on their own, real estate, they take it very elastic days ago and they often are expect overnight success. You know, oh, I'm going to send one email, I'm going to have a thousand assets sent to me. That's never how it works. You know, are they, you know, they mail postcards for the first time and they expect to get the phone to ring off the hook and they're, they're getting one phone call. That's the biggest thing I see new investors struggling is they don't realize that there is a game to this. You have to realize there's a process to this. I, I tell our students all the time, like listen, expect us to take at least five or six contacts before they will even talk to you. Now sometimes, I mean I've, I've been places and had people make a, a phone call the first phone call on, the asset manager answered and had three deals for them immediately. That's hardly ever the case. Usually it's going to take that email. They're going to have to see, especially as a brand new investor, you've got to build that kind of, I guess you can say the online notoriety of like you're actually going to be around longer than somebody who's just starting out.

Yeah.

So you do the time, you've got to, you put the effort in. You got to hone it a little bit. You got to follow up and follow up and follow up. Because that's really where all the deal is. Because I think I saw that 50 of people never send a follow up email. Over 50%.

Wow.

And only a quarter percent of people send, you know, do two follow ups. Okay. And only 10% will do a fourth follow up. So if you can do a fifth one, you're in the top, you know, top 10% of people out there to get stuff closed. And you're probably going to come across a whole lot more stuff than most people are doing it once or twice and then they're just going to complain about it.

Yeah, yeah. And I bet if nothing else, I mean, if people are looking to, to work with somebody, they may, I may be waiting to see if you stick around. Right. Like, is this just another one off email or am I going to get three or four from this guy because he's in it for the long haul, so.

Exactly. And then taking the time to really make sure that your email looks and sounds professional.

Sure.

I've seen emails and you'd be surprised where there's errors and it looks like somebody from, somebody's from the ghetto. You know, the email just doesn't look good. I mean, the thing with Infusionsoft or Mailchimp or AWeber or Salesforce. Yes. That those items are going to cost you a little bit monthly. But it's a tool, you know, it's a good tool that will work as long as you use it. You don't want to be like, you know, you don't want to sign up for something and then just donate to infusionsoft for two years before you actually start doing something with it.

Right.

There's a lot of training and a lot of tools that you can use to really help yourself stand out from the crowd. And it also, if you're using those tools, you can see who opened your email. You know, you can see who opened it two or three times. Well, somebody opened your email three times. That's probably a person you need to call immediately because they've looked at your email more than once.

Yeah, for sure. That's. Actually, I want to ask more about that because it sounds like, I mean, email is a really primary mode of communication for you guys to get to the people you need to get to. So how do you guys set yourself apart in your emails? I've seen people, you know, you do everything. They make it. They go too far and they make it look like too much. I've seen people send. Just sing, just simple text. Because sometimes people are going. So to the other side of it, simple text looks so much more personal. It looks like somebody that you know is writing you. What, what, what balance do you guys strike? And how do you guys kind of format your emails to stand out?

So I. My favorite color is green. Okay. Bright green. And so my emails are always gonna be the bright green. I even had asset managers, oh, I was looking for the green email, you know, or they say, I've gotten your email six months in a row. I didn't have anything till now to send you. So that's one thing. We're always putting our logo and I'm always putting my smiling face somewhere on that email.

Okay.

I think a lot of investors get, like to hide behind their logo and that's great. But, you know, Mike Perry over at Condor is getting an email from an entity he may not know, but he may remember me and my face from the fact that we drank beers in Vegas at a conference one time, you know, so that's one big thing. Second thing is just taking the time. You know, your first template you put together on an email blast is going to take some time. Don't get frustrated. Go ahead and spend the time to put your name, you know, have it coming from you. Keep it short and sweet. You don't need to. Most of these asset managers don't have time to read a whole freaking novel.

Sure, sure.

You know, you want to keep it like three short paragraphs. Hey, hey. Here's what I'm looking for. What do you have? You know, here's a little bit about me. You can put a link to your LinkedIn profile. That's a great thing to do because if they click on your photo, you can go to your LinkedIn profile and see who's clicked and who's viewed your profile is a great way to follow back up that way. So just make it kind of simple and sweet. Too many people will put like all their social media handles right at the top. And I'M like, no, no, no, don't do that. They're not here to be friends with you. Keep that down to the bottom or remove it all totally. When you send out, have you, have.

You experimented with video at all? Have you ever sent like video clips or just.

Yeah, Brandon, we do a lot with video and so I think you need to keep your, your videos to asset managers. Under two minutes preferably. Yeah, you know, straight to the point. I almost kind of. You want your emails almost kind of. If you're a sports fan, look like espn.com photo or photo, video at the top, highlight and then a short little description of what you're talking about. Yeah, that's. And that's a beautiful thing because you can say a lot in a two minute video than you can in a paragraph. And they may not be able to read that paragraph, you know, but they can watch that video and they'll, you know, tell a little about your personal. I have it. Where my logo is behind me or an office setting. I'm specifically stating clearly what I'm looking for and how I can help them, you know, with their portfolio or what they have on their books from their quarterly reports. Hey, saw that you've got, you know, 2 billion and you know, 90 day accruals. We'd love to take a look at that list and see help you out or we saw that you acquired ABC Central Texas bank six months ago. Are you ready to, you know, to move those off your books this time around? You know, those little things, it helps you stand out from the crowd and everybody's going to video these days, so you might as well get on that train as well.

Yeah, absolutely. Well, that's, yeah, that's great. That's really, really practical advice, I think for a lot of people who are looking to get started. So thanks for running through that. So I also wanted to ask you something. This is something that I know my, my listeners and I can learn a lot from, obviously from people like you. You're extremely forward thinking. You're always pushing, pushing, pushing. So I'm curious to know, as you look at, at your business and as you look to grow it, where do you see yourself? It could be in terms of numbers of deals you're closing in a year or employ have, whatever, what are some goals that you're setting for yourself and your business that one year from now, where do you hope to be? What do you hope to be accomplishing?

Well, that's a great question, Brandon. What surprisingly is our podcast has really helped blossom into driving Business to us. We have asset managers have listened to some more episodes and called me from listening to it.

That's.

Yeah, I think, I think one big thing everybody has to realize these days. Yes, we're all in real estate, fixed flipping, landlording, wholesaling notes. But first and foremost these days we're all in the media business. Everybody's trying to, you know, grab. Everybody's trying to grab our eyes and our ears. So the more you can put out content wise as far as video or audio stuff, the better you're going to be because a, if you put it out in video, you've got YouTube as the second largest search engine can help you out with that. And it's owned by Google, so you might as well throw that stuff out there. But that's one of the biggest things that's helped us close more deals is when we're doing like asset profiles like a condo, couple condo notes we bought in South Austin. We had a New York hedge fund call us because they bought a tape that had like six other notes in and around that area and our video was the only thing in that area that was relevant. So they called me on the blue and asked me if I wanted to buy those six assets.

Wow.

So that's the big thing is, is is treat your business professional. Don't treat it as a hobby. And don't get me wrong, if you love what you do, great. But if you want your side hustle to become your full time, take a little bit of time and get used to doing shoot shorty and shooting short little videos, little informational stuff. Hey, about who's Brandon Reed or who's Scott Turner or whoever, what it is and what you're focused on and talk about the case studies you've done. We're not talking about an hour long, you know, public access infomercial. We're just talking about a short little videos will go a long way and then you've only got to say it once versus saying it a thousand times and you can rinse and repeat that video all across the Internet. I think we'll end up doing. And there's another thing I think one of closing about a thousand deals in the next year.

Wow, wow, wow, wow. That's amazing. How many people do you have working like in your operation to make a thousand deals happen?

So we buy a lot in bulk a lot of times. So okay, I'm very fortunate that in the note space we've got a lot of vendors that kick in and help out. Like we have a servicing company that handles most of the borrower outreach. You know, we have attorneys in every state that we're buying from. I have a full time asset manager who works remotely in New Jersey and I'm in Austin, Texas. She used to work for my servicing company, but she handles a lot of the borrower outreach or the follow up to making sure documents are handled. She coordinates with the attorneys. I have a full time marketing gal, VP of operations and of course my accountant, my attorney here local time. So we kind of run with a small staff, which is kind of nice.

That's great.

When I had the mortgage company, we had a big, big staff and it was like being an adult babysitter. So that was owned, beaten in my head to keep it lean and you know what I mean?

Yeah, definitely.

But the thing is you're. Once you've got systems up and running in the note business space, you can really exponentially grow your business relatively quickly. I always tell people, hey, buy one, two or three notes, get your feet wet, move to 1020 and then go from there.

That's great. So something else for you, if you could go back to 2000. Well, one is with the first date you gave me, but I guess over the last maybe, let's say 10 years as you've been doing note investing, if you could go back and tell yourself that version of yourself, something, any one thing that you could tell that version of yourself that you've learned over the last 10 years that could save yourself the most trouble. What would that be?

Two things. One, buy more.

Okay. Okay.

Ten years ago everything was a whole lot cheaper than it is now.

Yeah.

And second, I would say is that's a good one. Second thing I would say is just you're never going to go wrong with good accountants or good attorneys. You know, understanding asset protection and, and retirement accounts and things like that and, and taxes. That's going to pay off tenfold. It may not be the most exciting stuff, but the more time you can spend with it, it's going to exponentially grow in the long run and give you different ways to make money, save money and pay a whole lot less taxes and it's, it's so, so valuable. So spend more time on that in the front end. I didn't do a lot of that in the front end.

Okay.

Deals that kind of drug out and I had to get involved with some other things along the way. But hey, we always work to get things taken care of and fixed. So that would be the 2 thing. Buy More assets when stuff's cheap and Spend more time with the asset protection and, you know, accounting.

It sounds like. It sounds like those two things would have saved you. Yeah. A lot of trouble. That's two great pieces.

Anybody? A lot of trouble. Let's just put it there.

Yeah, yeah, definitely. So I know Scott, you'd mentioned your podcast. I think you actually have a couple. If I saw right. Where can people find those? People are more interested in learning more about this and want to hear directly from you, like your style. How can they find those. Those, those podcasts?

Really easy. Just have to go to our my website, weclose notes.com and we have the Note Closer show podcast which we just celebrated our 500th episode this week.

Oh, that's amazing.

Awesome. Thanks, man. Then we have a couple smaller ones that are just kind of offshoots of webinars that we do on a, you know, one's a. We do a Monday night coaching call called no night in America that we take those videos and turn them into a podcast and then we do special purpose like series for like online summits that we do called like Note Camp and we, we'll take the replays from all the speakers and throw that into a podcast. But we close notes dot com. Got all the information, all the, all the links that you'll need to go to to find anything that we have.

Perfect. Well, this was all really invaluable. Scott, I appreciate you taking the time and running me through this, answering my questions.

Thank you, Brandon. Thanks for having me. Hey guys, if you're listening to this, click on over to itunes. Hit the subscribe button. Leave him a five star review. Brandon's doing an amazing job busting his butt. That's the least bit of lifting you can do for him tonight.

Thanks, Scott. I appreciate you, man.

Thanks, bud.

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