Note Investing, a not so known strategy of Real Estate: With Scott Carson - Let's Tok Podcast

From Bernard Russell which is fear is the main source of superstition and one of the main sources of quality as well. To conquer fear is the beginning of wisdom. Welcome everyone for another episode of let's Talk a podcast for human skills and mindset. Today for the first time in all these episodes, one of my favorite topic going to discuss which is real estate. If you see that. I'm also part time real estate investor and I was looking forward for some inspirational figure who has very good stories around how he or she has developed over the course of time so that we can share in our podcast. And today's guest, Scott Carson is one of that individual who really inspired me. And even before I introduce him I would like to tell you it's very interesting how we met. I think you reached out to see whether I'm going to a conference or not and I wasn't. But in a way when I saw your profile I was like wow. I definitely put him down in one of my lists so that I'll ask him that and request him if he can come to my podcast. So Scott Carson, welcome to the show.

Well, I am honored to be on here today and just here to give to your audience and you know, you know that's the same thing. It's a smaller world than it's ever been before through social media, audio, podcasting, video. It's a, it's an honor to be here today and if I can motivate, hey, I'm always glad to do that. So honored to be a motivator for you.

Absolutely. So just a bit about yourself for all the listeners and viewers. I think from what I know that obviously you are the owner of beclozenotes.com based out of Austin, Texas, specialize in finding and purchasing non performing notes on residential and commercial properties. And, and for the people we definitely will dig deeper of what exactly performing non performing notes. Maybe a lot of technical jargon for few people. And in your earlier life you were a mortgage broker, a coach and a vice president in JP Morgan Chase. So I'm very intrigued. So let's go down, take a flashback there how exactly you land up to what you are right now from JP Morgan to now we are talking here about notes.

Well we can take it back a little bit further because I think that's an interesting story. So I went to school, graduated college, degree in business, always been interested in finance. I worked for a couple different companies before I got into the banking side. But I worked, I was a, worked for a company financial investment firm in Town here. So I see with Smith Barney, you know, it's a division of Citibank. And I did that for a while, doing well, and then got laid off. I did whatever I could for a while until I got into the banking side of JP Morgan Chase. But prior to getting laid off, we bought. At the time I was married, I bought a house right out of college. You know, nice house, it wasn't overly sized. And then I also dabbled in real estate investing and I bought two investment properties at the same time. This is going back to 2001, 2002, when here in the United States, if you had a decent credit score, you could do a lot with it. And we had a great credit score as well. I was making six mortgage payments. Three first three seconds I had two renters in my investment properties. And then I got laid off, and then my tenants got laid off. So I went from being what I thought would be the next, you know, real estate mogul to being behind the eight ball, you know, distressed facing foreclosure, really, you know, unemployed, shaking the couch curtain and cushions to get changed, to put money in a car to get to job, stuff like that. So lucky for us, we got rid of the two investment properties, we're able to save our primary residence. And then I got into back into the finance side of things that working at first at Bank One and then I eventually to Chase bank and was a banker there here in Austin, Texas, a top banker in the state. Really enjoyed that aspect of it, but I didn't really like the glass ceiling. And so buddy of mine that had worked with me previously, he started a mortgage company and got hooked up with a couple real estate investor, I guess you call them gurus who are traveling the country, speaking every other weekend at an event, teaching creative financing and creative real estate investing. Not the traditional go buy something off the mls, which is what I'd done and fell flat in my face. So I realized that's after meeting him for lunch and hanging out with him, I realized that's really what I wanted to do. I really loved that aspect of it. I loved those flip, you know, flip this house TV shows. My dad owned the local hardware store and I grew up in a small town doing all that work on houses on the weekends to make extra money. And so I said this is what I'd do. So I left Chase and went to work as a mortgage broker, started traveling the country and doing mortgages not only for investments, but also it was a great learning experience where I was going to all these Big conferences and attending all this training for free. So I took it as an opportunity. So for four years, I say I always had kind of an apprenticeship in the real estate investing side of things. A guy by the name of Bob Leonid and a lady by the name of Jamie Kayla, they were really great pictures to me. And another guy by the name of Roland Frazier, who's one of the big wigs behind Traffic and Conversion Summit, stuff like that taught me marketing. And so those four years from 2004 to 2008 were really helped develop me mentally, helped develop my skills as a marketer. And it's something I've embraced. It's really helped me to this day. And it when 2008 hit here in the United States with a recession and the big upheaval, I left the bank, the mortgage banking side, and started buying notes. Where I'm buying mortgages, I'm buying debt basically. So instead of me originating loans for banks, I was basically buying the stuff that people weren't paying on anymore. And that's what I've done really the last 15 years is I just buy performing or non performing notes. This is where a non performing notes when somebody's not paying on their mortgage, usually at least six months or greater, and we buy that debt at a big discount from the lender and then become the bank. And then we make our money by working to modify those mortgages or working with the borrowers to keep them their houses if we can. If they can't, then we work with them to leave the property and either turn the property over to us or we'll foreclose if they won't play ball. So that's, that's what I've done the last, really 15 years is just buy debt, you know, on residential commercial properties, anywhere from a one one note all the way up to 300 notes at a time. And in roughly about 30 different states across the country, over a billion dollars in debt. But that's, that's what we've done. We've leveraged marketing, I've used video and you know, audio and stuff like that since the beginning before I went out my own. But I'm the host of the no Close show podcast, which we just reported my 715th episode or 725th episode, something like that. Wow. And we've leveraged that for six years now and just surpassed the 1.2 million download mark this morning actually. So pretty excited about that. So that's a little problem.

That's a great way to kind of go through your journey And a lot of things to unwrap actually from being laid off, having so many mortgage and debt to 1.2 million downloads, which you mentioned. So let's try to unwrap a bit. Few things. As you mentioned that you had those hardship, those adverse situations at that point where you really want to take off from real estate as a part of your investment journey. And then you were in the condition that you are unable to pay the mortgage. And so the tenants. And I'm very sure that would be a very stressful situation for you and at the same time learning perspective. So one thing which I really like about is there two spectrum of people in this adverse situation. They would be like, real estate is not for me. And they just bid goodbye and then just try to do something else. You stick to that. You get a lot of experience in mortgage broker. Would you like to shed some more insight from the mindset? Because this podcast is about how people transform. Right. So help us walk through at that time when you have this, this challenge, no job, all the debts of all your properties, what's going in your mind and how exactly you navigate through those tough waters.

Yeah, so it was a very stressful period. You know, one of the biggest causes of divorce is financial strife. And I was married at the time and we were, we're struggling. You know, she was a private school teacher. You know, she wasn't making a lot of money. So we were, I was doing anything I could. I was delivering pizzas, I was bartending, I was doing odd jobs, which is stressful in its nature because you're like, I'm settling for a $10 an hour job and I was making a hundred bucks an hour. You know what I mean? You have to kind of swallow your pride. So I took that time to really work on my inner, my inner head game because that's, you know, we all have those self doubts and that negative inner speak every day. Everybody struggles with that. And I think going through something like that really not only thickens your skin, but thickens your armor. And once you get through your. I'm a big believer that God doesn't give us anything that we can't handle. You know, I have a strong faith in myself and, and that I can get through anything if I just keep working through it. I'll find a way. And I wasn't the only one that was going through issues. There's plenty of other people at that time here in Austin that were going through issues. So I just asked for help. I reached out to people, I looked for Resources and I was able to find a couple investors that took those investment properties off my hand and, and we were able to work with the bank to keep our primary rent. So we got through that aspect. It was, it was stressful, yeah, but we got through it. It took honestly about two years of getting through it, of licking your wounds and saving and okay, getting back on track, getting back to the point where we're at. And then I risked it all again in 2004 to leave, you know, leave JPMorgan Chase as a banker and. But my wife at the time was like, look, I believe in you. If you think this is where you want to go, let's. You can always go back to banking. That will always be there. Let's do it. So we did that. And you know, it was one of the best decision I made. It was a little stressful as well, but it taught me how to make money as an entrepreneur instead of, you know, that was the last time I received a paycheck was the July 4th of 2004. So I haven't received a regular paycheck since then. It's all been either money that I've generated commissions or deal flow or other things that we do but do here so that freedom can strangle a lot of people. But I was very lucky that I had people and mentors along the way and coaches that helped guide me on my path, told me what to do. I listened to him, I was coachable. And that's one of the things I highly recommend if you're making any type of job change. Talk to people that have made that leap or jump or investment and find out what they struggled with and you know, what they would do differently in overcoming those obstacles if they could do anything differently. Not all else could change things. But I think that's one of the most important things is you got to surround yourself with good minded people. When I was going through those rough times, it was really easy to be a negative Nancy and getting that down. And when I did, I would literally go try to find something that would make me feel good. And maybe it was going to a movie. I love movies. That's one of my biggest inspirational factors is going to movies or listening to. Back then we didn't have a lot of podcasts I was listening to, like tapes like Mark Victor Hansen, Chicken Soup for the Soul, you know, Rich Dad, Poor Dad. I couldn't afford to be coached by those mentors, but I bought their books and got mentored. You know, Tony Robbins, Unleash the Beast within is One of the most powerful books I can come. And so going through those things, it's easy to just feel sorry for yourself and have pity. But we're all where we're at today because of the decisions we make. And I think that's the number one thing we have to say right off the bat is that we are where we're at today because of the decisions we made. If you are struggling because you've been laid off, because so many people have been laid off, well, guess what? You made that decision to work for that company, to settle, to swap your dreams out for their dreams, to settle for whatever they are paying you. When you, you know, you're worth more, you settle for that. And if you take that job, great. But if you get laid off, guess what? It's not their job, that's not their fault. It's your fault that you settled for it. And you as an entrepreneur and we still, you know, here in the United States, we live in one of the greatest societies out there to be able to change things, you know, and everywhere, if you've got Internet and a smartphone, you can change your direction by learning and coaching and learning your mind. There's so much stuff available out there. So that was, you know, that's what I went through and that's what really got me through that process to have a positive mindset and a thicker skin to get me through the peaks and valleys of the last 15 years.

Yeah, I think a few things which you said, it's so profound that sometimes when the things are not going in your direction, you have to swallow your pride. I mean, I can only empathize because God forbid at this time, I never got into that situation. But I have heard a lot of stories like as you mentioned, that from hundred dollars per hour you're doing that, but you're not like getting into maybe a too much in a depression mode or even if you are, you're trying to constantly being more resilient to try to come out of it and ensure that either as you just kind of thinking that okay, I'm good for nothing or something, you start working on, you start learning, reaching out to the people, going through the books out there, whatever you are earning, because those are some things which no one can steal you, which is knowledge, at least that is one of the thing. So moving on to the next part of the life, which you mentioned about being a mortgage broker, you are attending a lot of conferences about it. One of the things which I learned from a lot of guests as well is these Conferences are a breeding ground of strong networking, reaching out to the people creating bonds, professional bonds out there. What's your perspective? How exactly you got what you were looking for? Or maybe you provide some assistance to the people on the, in these conferences or networking events?

Yeah, I just did it. I was just talking with a student, a student of mine today. She went to a conference two weeks ago and she hasn't followed up with any of the people that she's met with there. And I'm like, listen, that's the number one thing that you can do if you're going to spend money to go to an event. You know, hotel, travel, food, time away from your family or loved ones, you re, it's an investment. Make sure you, you massage that investment to make sure that it works for you. So one of the things that I learned is one of my mentors told me, like if you ever go to any event or you get stack of business cards or you meet people, that's a valuable thing. And connection doesn't often happen the first time. Yes, you may meet and talk with somebody at a booth or out at dinner at the buffet line or like that, or over cold beer at the bar. It's all about follow up. 80% of sales are made after the fifth follow up. Now I'm not trying to sell somebody, I'm just trying to build rapport with somebody. And I found that less than, really less, less than 5% of people will follow up with net, you know, networking connections, you know, two times, at least twice. Yeah, it's, it's really, really slow. Or a lot of people just forget about, they get stuck. So I started every time I'd go somewhere, whether it was a meetup group or a conference, I would take that stack of business cards, put it in a spreadsheet, and then I immediately send them an email and said, hey, it was great meeting you. It was great networking with you. If I can help in any way, be glad to. Here's a little bit about me, you know, I mean, here's what I'm focused on. What are you focused on? And when people respond, I would start making notes in my database. Oh, hey, they invest in Memphis or they invest in apartments or they're looking to lend money or they're just getting started. And I grew that database slowly and steadily and would just send an email out to them like once a month was what I started off doing, like once a month. And then I upped it to once a week. Hey, here's a deal that I'm working on this week. And one of the most profound things that I did as an investor is I started, I put a challenge in place. I'd just gone through a rough time. I'd gotten to. This is 2008, 2009. I'd gone through a divorce. I challenged myself, look, I want to make 6 figures. Let me challenge. Make 6 figures in 100 days. 100k in 100 days. I started a blog, okay? And every day I would write about what I did that day to get towards my goal. So I manifested my success. By day 57, I was too busy doing day. I was doing a daily little write, little video image. And it bred. It just grew into this thing where I was go from having like 10 people that read it to 15 to 50 by day 55. There's over 1500 people reading this little daily blog. I was putting out on hub pages, sharing my zoo. But I was getting bombarded with great stuff. People like, hey, I got 25 to grand, I'll invest with her. I got 50, or hey, I got a deal you might be interested in. And so day 57, I stopped writing the daily blog because I was so busy. But I reached that 100k mark already. And that spread like wildfire. I was like, whoa, I'm onto something here, okay? And so that's really led me to the big belief that you don't. Most entrepreneurs, most business owners, they approach marketing as. Whenever they get around to it, it's like the afterthought, oh, we'll market this, we'll do this later. I've taken the different approach that you have to market daily. If you're going to do something, you need to market your business daily. If you're working for another job and you have a side hustle, hey, make sure you still clocking on your side hustle 30 minutes a day. Maybe it's an email, maybe it's a phone call, maybe it's a social media post, maybe it's a recording, a short podcast or short video, something like that. And that's what I've embraced. So that when we. I left the mortgage industry and really there's about two years there figuring things out in 2010, that's really. I said, okay, I got to. I got to share exactly what I'm doing. So every day I was sharing a deal that I was working on, sharing a something that I was doing, raising capital, marketing. And that led to really a grassroots effort of people beginning to realize what I was doing. And I was sharing Facebook videos and YouTube videos. And you know, I got asked to go speak all across the country and people like, hey, you're that YouTube guy who talks about notes. Hey, you're the note guy. I'm like, yes, I am. And that's, that's been the secret of my success more so than anything else is just sharing and sharing on a regular basis and being consistent in your message and approaching my business as a marketing first. You know, first 30 minutes to an hour of each day is always about what are we doing today to market our business? What are we doing? Our today is recording a podcast. Is it with you? Is it record my own podcast is doing short videos and send an email blast out. You got to have that investment every day to get stronger because if you don't, somebody else will market. And if you wait and wait and wait, you eventually got to start that momentum all over again. So it's easier to keep the momentum then try to rebuild it all over again.

That's such an incredible story. I think so many things you have mentioned about obviously the skill set. First of all you mentioned about how exactly you reached out. You're right that we have to follow up because again we have to understand that how would I react. People have life situations, they are busy, they have a lot of other things they will not remember you. You have to take your step in order to make sure that you have a consistent communication and obviously at the same time not to be pushy as you mentioned that how may assist you. And this is something about myself not at the get go that this is something I'm looking for. So that is one thing you mentioned. And then obviously you start working on building a brand and it's such a, I would say such a great story about reaching out to the people on everyday basis. So you try to took that effort to reach out. And this is the beauty of human beings that they really like to go and help people progress when they see that people are really trying to invest their time on. So as you mentioned, you were just providing your story on the everyday basis. And there are a lot of people who would be like oh man, this guy is something on it. And let me just try to follow and understand his story. And that's how you continuously develop your followership. And as you mentioned before, you have across 1.2 million from the part where again you are totally bankrupt. Then you have your own personal life situations, you continuously try to be resilient and now you have your own story. So that's such a, a great storyline I think and so after that, like once all these things started happening, how what is your, you said like you started investing node. Now for the people who just know that real estate, maybe they have only primary residence or they have purchased one or two properties, what is exactly the note investing or just in the plain terms, if people do not know what is not, maybe you can start what is not the first.

So here's the thing. Everybody's already in the note business. We're all in it. If you've got a mortgage, you got a car that you owe on, you got a credit card, student loan debt, medical bills, you're in the note business, you're just on the wrong side of the payment stream. Okay? You got money going out versus money going in. There's a bank or somebody that's getting paid with those monthly payments. Well, that's what I do. I'm technically becoming the bank. And that's what I'm doing. Buying is this 30 year mortgage or this 20 year mortgage, I am literally buying that debt and replacing the bank. Maybe you go get a mortgage from a bank out there, let's just say bank of America, and a month later if you buy the house, you get a letter in the mail saying that your mortgage has been sold to somebody and now you need to pay that. Well, that new bank bought that note from that other bank. Well, that's a lot of what we do, but we're primarily buying notes from banks where the borrowers haven't paid and six months to six years in a lot of cases. So they may owe a hundred grand, but we, you know, they may owe initially in the mortgage, but they may now owe 150, 160,000 because all these back payments they haven't paid. We'll buy that debt at, you know, $0.50 on the dollar of what the initial loan amount was. So if they originally only owed 100, we might pay 50 grand for that borrower still owes 160 grand. But we reach out to the borrower and say, hey, listen, I know you're behind what happened. Do you want to stay or do you want to go? If you want to stay, let's work out a solution that makes sense here to keep you in the property. Let's modify the loan payments or work out. If it doesn't make sense for you, then we're glad to let you walk away from the debt and we'll just take the property because the property has a value of some sort anyway, which is our, that's our collateral basically. And we'll end up with a property about 30% of the time where the borrowers just walk away or they don't want to work with us to get them back on track. So then we go the legal route and foreclose and take the asset back.

Got it.

So that's what we're doing. We're buying the debt and literally becoming the lender and working with a borrower.

Okay. So basically, note is just like you investing in, as you mentioned, that everyone is some way or the other a part of the note. It just like they do not know, they just say it's a mortgage. And obviously they did sign in the paperwork a kind of a promissory notes in terms that. And which is obviously nothing. But just what are the terms, like how you pay, what is the time interval and what is the expected overall outcome for that? So that being said, in the note business, if people would like to invest, because I think in note, it's not like you are buying a property, you are buying a debt. So in note investment, what are the key things, the benefits, which people would like to go with the note and in that perspective, what exactly you can try to explain to the people that, okay, you would like to go to a note investing versus being a landlord. So what's your points on those perspectives?

So there's three things that I like about note investing. Different. Because I've been a landlord, I've been a fix and flipper. Here we see deals, we see distressed deals because a lot of investors are looking for distressed or discounted deals. But when we see deals six to 12 months ahead of most investors, because we're buying the debt before it ever goes to the foreclosure auction or becomes a foreclosure, we get it way ahead of time. We get it a much bigger price point, you know, 50, 60 cents on the dollar versus 80, 90 or full value. In a lot of cases, when you own the note, you're not in the property management space. You're actually the bank. Nobody calls the bank when little Timmy flushes his rubber ducky down the toilet or the air conditioner goes out. Yeah, we're not the property manager, we're the note. The bank always gets paid. So those are three things. Access to more deals. We, you know, we get lists in from banks that may be like this morning I got one from a bank that was four assets. I got another one was one, I got another one was 150 assets from a bank. And these banks send us these lists every month, every quarter. So most investors, they're chasing like foreclosures or a borrower, they might have one deal and they have to constantly be marketing to it. Once I make a connection with a bank or a lender who's selling notes, they'll send me their list every month without any overhead costs or mail costs or stuff like that. So that's great. So we get a lot more deal flow. We get to see it six to 12 months ahead of most people. We're not getting the phone calls on the weekends. We're not dealing with toilets, tents and trash outs. All right. And our returns are higher because we're getting to that lower, lower price point. But we have so many different exit strategies that we could do with either modifying the loan, reinstating the loan, letting the borrower let somebody take over the payments, doing deed loan cash for keys. There's. The returns are a lot higher than your traditional single digit rental returns basically for the most part.

Yeah. So as you mentioned that it looks pretty lucrative. But obviously when there's pros, there are cons as well. So the people who would like to think and jump, oh, this is great. I don't have to be worrying about their management property and this toilets and everything. This is exactly the way which I would like to pursue. But hold on, there are a few things to consider. What are those conditions?

That's great. I'm glad that they asked you. The first thing is that you don't own the property. Okay. You own the note. The property is the collateral for the note. So a lot of people will come into it thinking, bidding the same way that they would on a property. That's not the case. To take the property back, you have to either go through the some sort of legal procedure or pay the borrower off to walk away like, or give them cash for key. So it's different, it's a whole different price point. A lot of investors deal with after repair value. You know, they're going to buy it, fix it up, it's going to be worth this. After repair value doesn't exist. We only work look at as is value. All right. People sometimes have a tough time that are engineers, they'll sometimes have a harder time because we got like 10 different exit strategies and that's hard for them to try to figure out. Like, well, which way could it go? Well, it could go a variety of different ways. You got to be prepared if it gets reperforming or if it doesn't, then you got to be prepared to foreclose and go that route. Another thing that's different is people just want to buy in their backyard. Well, I don't buy anything in Austin. It's too for price. So there's a lot of great places across the United States that you can buy in. But we rely heavily on vendors like servicing companies and attorneys and local realtors to help us out. Because if we're buying a note, we don't. Oftentimes we don't get interior access to the property because somebody's living there. So we had to pull value off of comps and then taking a look at where the property's at and looking at emotional factors like is the lawnmower, is there kid toys there? You know, what has the borrower said when they've called in to make a payment or when the servicing companies call to collect payment? They've been friendly. So we're doing due diligence, not just on the property, but the exterior of the property, the borrower. And then we also look at the collateral files, the loan documents, which is. This is technically give you a bit of an idea. This is exactly what we're buying here. Basically, this not the property, but this holds power over the property. So you have to review these. And we use, you know, vendors and attorneys to review the collateral files to make sure that we have the right to full flow. So it's a little bit. It's a. You have to think like a banker versus a property owner, too. Banks are the biggest buildings out there because they're in the. The cash flow game, right? They're not dealing in real estate. They don't want to deal with the rentals or don't deal with fix and flips. They want to be in the note business and they build that cash flow. So our returns are always better by keeping the borrower in the property because we get them back on track in 30 days or 60 days versus having a foreclose and going through a foreclosure process that could take you, you know, 60 days to, you know, three years. You're buying in New York, New Jersey. So you have to step in with different mindset and realize, hey, you're not getting the property right off the bat. Yes, you could end up with it, but you got to understand that if it's occupied, the borrower could always reinstate the loan and you're stuck with a performing loan, which is a good thing. They don't pay. Then you got to go the legal route. So it's got different facets and different approach to things. It's a different mindset versus just buying A property, putting a renter in there and getting a landlord.

I agree. And I think if someone would like to get into the node investing so definitely they can go with a performing note first to get their hands dirty before getting into the non performing so that they do not kind of burn their hands because they do not know about the unknowns and they do not have the whole system in place to maneuver around and get through that.

Well, that's why we started teaching back in 2010 is we were buying this stuff and people like, they want to invest with us but they want to understand it. So we started teaching classes and workshops on it. And you know, we have a training program that we teach on the side as well for folks that they're interested. But it's just most people like oh, I understand it now. Okay, great, it makes sense to me. I don't want to do the work. Can I just write you a check and invest with him? Like yeah, sure, we could do that for sure.

That's great. That's great. So now we move towards the end of our conversation. Obviously I can talk on and on because there are so many things I'm learning as well because I have done all the traditional investing, not from the node perspective. So definitely I learned a lot behind the scenes from you as well. But that being said, if people would like to reach out to you to learn more or just be in contact in the social so that they can keep thinking. So what are the different avenues they can reach out to?

You can always find out what we're doing checking all our different podcasts and training by going to our main website weclosenotes.com that's the main website and get everything there you want to. You can always, you know we're. I'm on just about every social media. There is one Scott Carson for the most guy most part. But check out the Note closure show podcast 700 plus episodes for you. And you can always find me on LinkedIn @1 Scott Carson as well too. But we close notes.com if you know if you want to book a call and pick my brain, you can always do so by going to talkwithscottcarson.com that'll take you directly to my calendar. You can book a 30 minute phone call and pick my brain away.

That's great and definitely we'll put all this information in the show notes below. That being said, Scott, it was wonderful talking to you actually I learned a lot about you as well and definitely there are so many things to discuss. You never know in the future we can have more conversations like this. Till then, thank you so much for providing this information and all the best for your future endeavors.

Well, thank you very much. And if you're listening to this guys, make sure you click on over and hit that subscribe button. And make sure you leave a five star review. You're kicking ass and taking names and doing a great job with your episodes. We as podcasters love to hear from our listeners. So leave that five star review. Trust me, it'll do us a whole lot of good. But thank you again for having me and it's been an honor.

Hey, definitely.