Can You Be Hypnotized For Greatness? ft. Doug Sands | Ep 108

People seem to forget if you change today, today will change your life. For a limited time only. For those of you enjoying the podcast, I'm offering a free coaching session. That's right, a free coaching session for those of you who want to improve in their performance or their business or their relationships or any other area where confidence is a key ingredient. Then on the Self Belief Chief site, on the podcast page, self beliefs.com podcast underneath the episodes, you'll be able to book your own coaching session for free with me or wherever you're listening to the podcast. In the description, there'll also be a link to be able to book your session. I look forward to speaking to you soon. And let's get on with the podcast. Hello, Doug, thank you very much for joining me. You were just telling me that you've moved recently. So with the current circumstances, the current way of life at the moment, how have you found that move? Because I've just moved, but I've not moved as far as you probably have.

Absolutely. Well, thank you for having me on. My name is Doug. I used to live in Salt Lake City, the US and I drove about 11 hours south to move to Santa Fe, New Mexico. And the situation in Salt Lake City, I was able to go outside. I was able to do hiking and really relieve some of that boredom from being locked in quarantine. But New Mexico has been spiking in cases recently. And so we've been seeing a lot of things closing, from the climbing gyms to the hiking trails to even a lot of the grocery stores. You have to now just order it up. And I'm sure that over there you see it, a lot of these things have already happened, but a lot of these places, especially in the West America, it's. It's still coming. It's still hitting these places pretty hard, right?

Yeah. It's just. Can I ask you why? So what was the motivation behind making that move?

So my partner and I, we were looking to go skiing this winter because she has got some back issues that she's recovering from. And so skiing really helps build up those muscles and helps her recover.

Okay.

And so we couldn't get a job in Salt Lake City, and so we actually were able to get a job in Santa Fe. And we, you know, sat down and talked about it and looked at the risks. And at the time, New Mexico was still fairly open, and so we took it. And so far the ski lodge hasn't opened, but it's still planning to, and with just limited capacity. And so we're still Hoping to get in some runs for her physical therapy and everything.

Okay. Well, I hope she. Hope she's on the mend soon. But I think if, if more physiotherapists were recommending skiing, I think people would a lot more treatment a lot more often. That was usual diagnosis. I think they'd be thrilled to hear, just go do more skiing. But it's very nice to have you on, Doug, for people who might not be as familiar with you, you mind telling us a bit more about yourself and the sort of the journey that you've been on?

Absolutely. So my name is Doug Sands. I call myself the Adventure Hypnotist because I focus on helping people who want to live that adventurous life overcome the anxiety and the fear in their life to really go out and make those changes that they need to make. And it didn't exactly start out that way. I grew up on a farm in rural Wisconsin, and hypnosis and all these mind related techniques were so far out of left field that I hadn't even heard about them. It took me going to college and realizing that I was deeply unsatisfied with my own life, that I realized something needed to change. And so I left college. I started bouncing around the US going to different seasonal work, and it actually came down to nearly freezing to death on a hike in New Hampshire. That really turned it around because after that I really started questioning everything. Like for three weeks I was just at this bundle of nerves of anxiety, and I came to meditation. And it was the first time that I realized I could control my own emotions without medication, without therapy. And I'm a very strong proponent of medication and therapy. They both saved my life at one point. But it's very empowering when people realize that they're not the only tools that we have to control our own emotions. And through meditation, I eventually discovered hypnosis. And for me personally, hypnosis was even more effective way of managing my own emotions and making those changes in my life. And so I did more research and the more I learned about it, I just got hooked and I just dove in deeper into it. And eventually I became a hypnotist. I got certified and I actually started out the stage show, the comedy route, and I had a bunch of shows lined up and I was actually just starting around the time that Covid hit, and I had to do a very rapid pivot and therapeutic, you know, therapeutic hypnosis was something that I was deeply interested in. I'd use it mostly on myself, but I was not nearly ready in the business sense to make that pivot. And so this year had been quite a bit of shuffling around and quickly getting prepped for that.

It's like the chef who loves cooking, who then decides, oh, I love cooking, so I'm going to run a restaurant. And then they quickly find out that the cooking is 2% of it. And then there's all the other crap that comes with it. I'm very.

Oh, my gosh, I couldn't agree more. Yes.

Very familiar with that. So, obviously, when you want to help in terms of exercises that can help people be more adventurous, but to reduce the anxiety and stress and things that I'm very, very curious about myself. I have to ask, though, you mentioned in terms of going the comedy route now, there are always. With that type of thing, there's always the people that. There are people who want it to work and they're desperate for it to. They want to go on stage and they want to be hypnotized. And then you get. Of course, the other end of the spectrum of the skeptics are like, no, it doesn't work at all. So for those people, and I've always sort of wanted to ask someone who's kind of, who has embraced that side of hypnosis, for the people who are trying to understand, does this all try to believe? Does this really work? And I think it does have a huge link into the therapeutic aspects of it. Because the definition of hypnosis for a lot of people is that, oh, does that just mean you hypnotize me to say weird stuff? Right. People who are really unfamiliar. So for people who are like, does hypnosis really work? Can you really get someone on stage and get anyone to say whatever, what would you say to that person?

I would say to them a couple of things. So the first one I'd say is that the people on a comedy show on that stage, they all volunteered to be on that stage. When someone is coming to hypnosis for change work, they don't. They. That's not part of the agreement. They don't expect to bark like a dog or cluck like a chicken. But when someone goes on that stage, that's part of that unspoken agreement that, you know, you might do some ridiculous things on the stage and by coming up here and being a part of this, you're kind of agreeing to that. The other thing I would mention is that hypnosis is not like mind control like everyone you know kind of assumes it is. Hypnosis is a state that you yourself create. And my Job as a hypnotist is not to like, use hypnosis like a spell or something, or maybe wave a magic wand or anything. My job is to use proven language patterns to help you go to that deep meditative state, that alpha and theta brainwave state where these deep changes can be made. I believe that every single person has capability to be hypnotized, mainly because we're already doing it to ourselves. Whether it's like highway hypnosis or just getting lost in a really good book or movie or TV show, or simply just zoning out. Those are all forms of trance. And if you can do that, you already have the groundwork laid to go deeper and actually access those states where you can make the changes.

Sure. Whenever I've had people come my way because some of the exercises I do are sort of in the hypnotherapy category. They say, well, can you be hypnotized? The way I try to, I now articulate it to more and more people is it's actually kind of like de hypnotizing people. Because as you said, it's just you're going from one state to another. So what's to say the state you're already in isn't a state of influence from everything else around you, that's you're in an impressionable state and actually learning to de. Hypnotize out of that consistent state. I sometimes find people get their head around that a little bit more. But I couldn't agree more with what you're saying in terms of just changes of state and not kind of believing or expecting more than that, that it is just a shift of state. Where in those patterns, I'm sure you have people who will get onto some of the exercises that you mentioned when they want to build confidence or feel good enough. For a lot of those people, if you just say, you know you're good enough to someone's face doesn't compute. It doesn't mean anything. It does absolutely nothing. Because their conscious mind just gets in the way and goes, no, that's. That's bullshit. And the ability to just steer that conscious mind out of the way and into, you know, a different state of mind just allows us to do the work. And like a lot of other forms of support or coaching, you'll probably say, I assume you say the same. As we don't have the answers. There isn't a magic answer word, thing. It's the state that one can get into to figure out for themselves. So to steer away from the comedy side into what you're. Really. The great work you're able to do for people now is for people who are unfamiliar, perhaps we can go through some ideas, some thoughts and some exercises that you might take people through that would allow them to get into that state of mind, allow them to make those changes. And if it's all right just to pre face that with a different question, which is, what's the most common thing people come to you wanting to solve? So I understand the sort of niche that you're in, but what are the examples of people. What are the examples of things people are looking for help with?

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, since I do advertise for anxiety, that's what I see most often. But after anxiety, I see a lot of self confidence. I see a lot of people coming in for weight loss motivation. I don't see a lot of people coming in for smoking cessation.

That's okay, that's interesting.

Everyone, everyone knows that, you know, hypnosis works for that. But I mean, I've had a few. But I specifically turn them away because I find that the people who sign up for these sessions, they're in one frame of mind when they buy the session and another frame of mind when they actually show up to it, like they're not quite ready to make that change. And I believe what you said about suggestibility, about being in that receptive state where you can actually receive those statements, I think that's so important and people do it. People understand that hypnosis is all about entering that suggestive state. But it's not like it's, it's not like me putting my idea of what they want to fix on them. When I work with someone in therapy, the first 10 to 15 minutes are always defining what they believe their problem is in their own terms. And then we go ahead and we craft the suggestions in their own words so that later on, when I lead them into these deep states where they are in that receptive state, I'm able to give them the statements that their unconscious mind has already agreed with.

Okay, okay, so you take those statements. So when people listening might be thinking, okay, so what is the example of a statement that would actually change the quality of my life? Because I always say clarity brings things closer. And I find a lot of people just how vague they are in terms of the bigger picture of what they want or what it is day to day, just a lack of clarity where they don't know what the bullseye, the target is. And then they're wondering why they don't feel confident why they don't feel happy, or they haven't aligned with or have an understanding of what that bullseye is. So for people who are thinking, well, how specific do I need to be in terms of a statement? How bold does it need to be? Maybe it's not even in those categories. Maybe it's something completely different. What's an example of a statement that you. That an individual, you're not providing it for them, but the individual might come up with. And how specific does it need to be?

Yeah, when working with anxiety, a lot of people will give themselves new beliefs. Beliefs that they are safe, beliefs that they are worthy of love. And it all comes down to how specific they want to be. Because as you said, it's not about. It's not about moving away from the target. It's not about moving away from something we don't want. It's moving towards something that we do want. So many people are like, I just don't want to feel anxious anymore. Yeah, well, okay, we can make you feel hungry or sad or confused, I guess, but what do you actually want? And when a person defines those things, a lot of the times they start out very vague. And through kind of dissecting that with language, we really hone it down from I want to feel happy to I want to feel calm and at peace to I want to feel able to do the things I love without anxiety getting in the way.

Okay, so I come across a lot of people who. This is great because I think people, the understanding around hypnosis is just one of those things that people don't do enough of their own research for you see, sort of preconceptions people have. We were just about to start the discussion before this podcast around differences between meditation and hypnosis. People might be sort of more familiar with one or the other, want to kind of understand the nuances and the differences between them and understand what might be a better fit for them. You have your own definitions of what those are and how similar they are. So perhaps you could share your thoughts around what people can be expecting from those fields.

Absolutely. So they are both near and dear to my heart. As, as you know, I got started in hypnosis because of meditation and I think that they are both extremely valuable tools. Personally, I use both self hypnosis and meditation every single morning. It's part of my morning routine. And I would define meditation as going into a deep or going into this state within yourself where you are in a hyper focused state without thoughts. You are eliminating the Thoughts that just run in your mind, like I need to pick up milk at the store or I need to do these tasks. You push those to the side and if they come up, you just acknowledge them and let them pass. And hypnosis, on the other hand, is all about going deep into these states of relaxation. And excuse me, the brainwave patterns actually back this up. So most meditations, most solo meditations, I should say, are when our minds go above our normal brainwave patterns. So normally our brain waves sit at beta frequency, which I believe is 20 to 24 hertz. And anything above that is defined as gamma. And that's where you go. In meditation, you're actually in a hyper focused state where your brain is actually running faster than normal. In hypnosis, you're actually going below beta, down to alpha and eventually to theta, which is that state just above sleep. And that's why it kind of feels so relaxing. It kind of looks like sleep. But in that state you feel deeply relaxed, but you're still conscious enough to receive those suggestions. And what most people don't realize is that most guided meditations are in fact some form of hypnosis because your brainwave is actually being. It's not going into that gamma state where you're at in sola meditation, it's going down, down the scale. And a lot of these guided meditations, I always have to laugh because they pull in these language patterns that are clearly from hypnosis that have just been pulled almost whole, whole cloth from hypnosis. And I think it's very interesting how the mindfulness, movement and meditation is kind of skyrocketed. And hypnosis, which is very similar, has really just been left kind of in the dark ages.

Yeah. And one of the things I find when I talk to people about this type of space, a lot of people when they do meditation or hypnosis, they want to, especially meditation, they want to be good at meditation. And, and what happens with, or what I see happen with that is people get frustrated or they beat themselves up when they have a thought, or they don't feel as in such a deep state as usual, or it just doesn't feel like yesterday or whatever it might be. And for all of those people that get into those places, I like to remind them that we don't meditate to be good at meditation, we meditate to be good at life. And the target with meditation, hypnosis isn't that we become supreme experts at these things is just that we improve the quality of our life. And so when People, they almost judge the performance of the wrong thing. They, when they. When they do their own meditation, hypnosis, they judge how well they're doing at that. Well, really, instead of actually looking at how am I doing the rest of my life? And so they've almost added in a new thing to measure themselves by when all they're doing it in the first place is to measure it by the quality of their life. I don't know for people that presumably when people work with you, they're trying to take these exercises beyond working with you, and so they continue this work because it's like training a muscle, isn't it? You can't just train it once and it's done forever. Do you find people that they want to be good at the meditation and be good at. Or good at the hypnosis aspect so that they become experts in their own right, that when they do it on their own, they just want to be the best at that and that. That. And do you see that as problematic at.

I see. I should say I see a few people coming in who actually asked specifically, can you make me better at meditating or better at self hypnosis? And I also see some people who come in who, as you said, they're trying to get really good at hypnosis, but they don't really define it that way. And they go really deep into the experience. But the changes they actually make aren't that profound. And I think it's very interesting how the people who are really, I don't want to say desperate, but really in that frame of mind to make those changes, oftentimes they don't really go. They don't seem to go that deep in hypnosis. But the changes they report, like a week or two later, they have just completely turned their life around.

It is one of those things, I think, when I help people with their sleep and that they tell me all these things they've tried, which are things to help them sleep. And sometimes there's a bit too much going on there where it's like if you say, don't think of a white elephant, that's all they think about. And so when people think of some of the exercise or strategies that I do with people almost steering away from here's the thing to solve sleep, but actually takes their focus somewhere else with meditation and hypnosis, say hypnosis for sleep, or use the example in terms of weight loss. Does it become something for some people where. I only mention it because you sort of alluded to it, whether it's sort of almost trying too hard with it. And I don't know if there's a problem with that, where you're sort of trying to make it work, whereas with meditation, hypnosis, it's something more to let happen. I think that's my personal opinion. You sort of let it happen, but you give yourself control and autonomy to accept that rather than trying to be active and take control of it. So do you see some people who are trying to be active and take control of it and in itself is, is that, is that sort of what you're saying is the reason why it doesn't have an immediate or even in some cases a lasting effect?

Absolutely. I see a lot of people who have this preconception of what hypnosis is beyond like the negative mind control aspect of it. They think hypnosis is going to be this absolutely wonderful state that's just going to bliss them out. And a lot of times I prefer working with people who are that blank slate because I don't have to go in and first remove the expectations that they already have. And coming at it from that blank state, state of mind, you don't have bad habits that you've built up, you don't have those bad frames of mind. And so when I work with someone who already has those set up, you know, the first couple minutes are always about debunking those and then really getting to them, getting them to that state where we can actually make those changes because they're willing to, they have invested in the process and they're willing to go with the hypnosis wherever it goes, whether that is what they believed would happen or what is actually going to happen in the session.

Yeah. Okay. So I'd love to hear some stories and some examples of this you mentioned, especially in the space you mentioned in terms of people being more adventurous. So perhaps you could share one or two examples and stories and within those stories, perhaps the very specific exercise you would do with, though you would have done with that particular client or the, the sort of fundamental top line elements of it that allowed them to be in that place to do hopefully some amazing things.

Absolutely. So I am. It goes back and forth whether or not HIP and TIS are covered by HIPAA loss. But I personally believe that, you know, everything is confidential. And so anything that I do mention just know that names are changing, some details are changed. But one of, one of my very early clients was this mountain biker who lived in Idaho and he had this fear of going downhill which, you know, being a Mountain biker, that's kind of important. And it stemmed from, he thought the initial, what we call the initial sensitizing event was when he caught his front tire on this rock and it threw him and he almost broke his wrist. But going into hypnosis, we first looked at that event and I asked his unconscious mind whether there was something deeper, whether there was some unconscious, you know, further event beyond that. And immediately his mind said, yes, there was. And we went back to this first event when he was very young and just learning to ride a bike. And he, I believe he was using training wheels, but one of them broke or it wasn't attached strong enough. And so his bike fell over very young. And that fear was imprinted on him very early. And he came out of the session just kind of dazed and not really sure what was going on. And it took him a couple days to process it and put it into words. And he came back to me the next session and said that he had been living with that fear the entire time that he was doing this, doing these mountain biking adventures that he loved so much. And part of what he was doing was trying to overcome that fear, but he hadn't really realized it. And that's why it becomes such a big part of his life, because he unconsciously knew that was where his growth was going to come. And so I really enjoyed seeing his life just take off from then because once we removed that fear, it gave him the confidence and the self motivation to go tackle new things. Now he's a rock climber and now he's doing all these amazing expeditions down in South America, you know, doing just world renowned climbing routes that he never would have tackled otherwise. And another, another example that I'd like to share was a, a female rock climber who lived in New Mexico. And she contacted me because she was looking to do this big event. And it was, it was a competition of sorts. I'm not exactly sure how that works with rock climbing, but she wanted to, she wanted to be the best and something was holding her back. And we worked through that and we used what we call dissociation. And so when you, when you're thinking of a memory or you're playing a video in your mind or something like that, and you're in your body, you're looking out through your own eyes. That's what we call association, what we call disassociation is when you're looking at a memory from outside yourself, looking at kind of like the third person, like you're watching yourself in this movie. And so we just watched her going up these routes perfectly, time and time again, flawlessly, and getting faster every time, being safe about it and using proper technique. And that was enough to get her unconscious on her side and really make those changes because she won the competition. And I think she did it by quite a, you know, quite a good margin. And so those are some of the basic techniques that I use.

Let's take the first story. So he has that realization. I think for a lot of people, whenever I work with someone and they talk about a fear they might have had in the last year or five years or 10 years, often what I try to describe to them, once we sort of discover or uncover it, is that oftentimes that isn't a starting point. It's that. That's an. That's an event that. That triggers. That triggers the. The whatever. Where. Whatever the starting point was. And I find usually between the age about 2 and 10, you know, when you're born, you're the best thing since sliced bread. And then you can't do anything wrong. And then somewhere between that age group, there's something that doesn't quite go right or someone says something, something happens. And it's. It's usually like in that example with the training wheel comes up a very trivial thing, but because we don't have the tools and resources at that age to deal with it, we drag it like a weight around our neck our entire life. So I loved that story because that sort of represents quite a few of the sort of situations I find people in. And so he has the realization. So I know some people listening, will that now go okay? Has the realization. A lot of people feel like they have realizations, and it might not, you know, it might be a real. They think they're having the realization, but it might be like in your example, when with. In that particular example, their realization is the thing that's happened recently. Well, that's not quite it. It's the thing that is the kind of. The hinge is something that happened much earlier. So he has that realization. A lot of people listening will go, okay, well, if I have the realization that on its own, I don't know, necessarily gets me to where I want to get to. So once you have the realization, I've got ideas in terms of what's required to then heal that particular moment. But perhaps in that example, depending on what you can and can't share, actually having a realization is a big part of it. But what's the process in an example like that, where you actually can then use that. And what's the next strategy or technique to get past it?

Yeah, the groundwork for that is the idea that every single time we access a memory, we literally change the protein structures of that memory within our brain. The only way we cannot change a memory is to just not remember it at all. And so every single time you access that memory, some part of it is different. And so that's what we do. We go back in his specific case, we went back to that event, to his memory of that event and we brought back the resources that he now has. You know, as you're saying, when he was that age, he didn't have the resources to process it and to understand exactly what was happening to him. And so now that he was the adult, we actually brought him into the memory as an adult to comfort this younger version of himself. And just changing that single memory rippled out throughout the rest of his life in such a way that it was as if he'd always had those specific coping mechanisms.

So I was curious to see what you say. And that is sort of the approach that I take with people in that space. I think for people listening, it's funny, even if you just have the thoughts without actually going through the stages that Doug would take, people in a much, much deeper state. If you just have the thought of comforting your younger self, that alone, I think you notice a different feeling if you were to imagine seeing yourself as a child, naturally being able to hug that child and that also that child saying that you've done a good job as an adult. You know, where we wanted to get to. You have done a good job. You have got. Where you have these, this, this life in front of you. Just the thought alone that gives me, that kind of gives me chills anyway. So it's. I can absolutely. Yeah, so I can absolutely attest to what your. What you're saying. So what I'd be quite curious now is you have some really, really great resources for people that are available to people which I would just wanted to talk about. So you're the seven day stress free plan that you provide people. So can you tell people a bit more about that in terms of how that plan actually looks? Because that's the sort of sounds like a really great introduction into people who've got that curiosity in this.

Absolutely. The seven techniques. Techniques are tools that I give my anti anxiety clients to use between sessions. So hypnosis is my main tool, but it's not my only one. And so on the session we're doing mostly hypnosis but then they go home and perhaps there's still some of that underlying panic or anxiety. And I need to give something to them that they can use if something happens in a flare up. And so I've compiled those seven techniques into this email series, this video series, and you can find that on my website. But I'd love to share a couple of those techniques. They're very easy to explain and. Yeah.

Yes, please.

Yeah, absolutely. The first one that I always start people with, it's. It's just so easy, is what I call 711 breathing. I've heard it called 4, 7, 8 breathing or elongated breathing, but this one comes from meditation and yoga. And it's all about activating the vagus nerve, which is a primary nerve that runs from your chest area to your brain and back again. And the idea behind that is that the vagus nerve is the one that when something happens, it triggers messages from your brain down to your heart to speed up and, you know, breathe faster and more shallowly. But you can reverse that signal by breathing more deeply. You actually send calming signals back up the pipeline to the brain. And so to use this technique, all you have to do is take a deep breath in. You breathe in for about a count of seven and then you breathe out for a count of 11. And to help with that, it helps if you purse your lips on the exhale. Otherwise you kind of run out of breath.

Yeah, I've done that before. Otherwise you're exhausted by the end of it.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. The important thing is not that you do 7 in and 11 out. The important thing is that your exhale is longer than your inhale. And that's the first technique. The second technique that I start people with is called peripheral vision. And this comes from Melissa Tears, a renowned hypnotist out of New York City. And to do this one, you find a point somewhere in the room that you can focus your attention on. And it really helps if that spot is above eye level, because when you're focusing on a spot above eye level, your brain actually automatically shifts into alpha state. And that is where we're in when we're in a light daydream state. I can't confirm this, but I think that's part of the reason why people go into these deep states when doing meditation and yoga and believing they're looking through their third eye because they're looking up and entering that alpha state. But going back to this, so you find that point looking at it above eye level. And without moving your eyes, you just Keep them locked right there and begin expanding your vision. Notice what you can notice on the periphery of your vision. See if you can see specific shapes, specific colors. See what details you can pick out. See where does your vision end. Is it kind of fuzzy or is there a distinct cutoff? And then after you've done that, check in with yourself and notice how your emotions have changed and what that does. It automatically triggers your body to go into these deep states of breathing. And it activates the same vagus nerve. And it's kind of a tricky way around it, but it unconsciously, it kind of tricks your mind into being calmer, into doing those, into doing like 711 breathing. And the last one that I really give people who are just starting out in this, it comes from eastern traditions of acupressure and acupuncture. And this one is called Jinshinjutsu. And in Jinshinjutsu, it's believed that all five of our fingers have a very specific emotion connected to them. And when you squeeze that finger, you actually release the energy meridian behind that, and that lowers that emotion within your body. And so to do it, all you do is take one of your fingers in your other hand and squeeze it until you feel a pulse. And for my anti anxiety clients, I typically tell them to squeeze the first finger and the thumb because the thumb is just for like generalized anxiety. The first finger is for panic. The middle finger you squeeze when you're angry. You know, that's kind of easy to remember. The fourth finger is for sadness, and the fifth finger is for overthinking things. And I know this story of a woman who had a fear of flights and she did this as they were about, they were taking off and she wasn't really sure if she was feeling panic or just generalized anxiety, so she squeezed both and she just held it, feeling her pulse until the emotions started to fade. And she was able to make it through the entire flight without having one of her customary panic attacks.

They're all great exercises. The breathing one, you hear all different types of breathing patterns. But the last one, there is something feeling your own heartbeat, whether it's through the method that you do, but for other people, sometimes one of the things I get people to do for different reasons is when they put the sort of their wrist or the base of their palm right on top of their heart. And that you can feel that heartbeat, I find it is quite soothing. And whether it's the same reason or same principle as what you mentioned on the fingers, find that for myself that you put that on your chest when you get that feeling of if you imagine being able to feel someone else's heartbeat and how soothing that is. Because also that's what you would have had when you were a child as well, presumably in most cases, whether it's a guardian or a mother or a father, whatever, where you being held close, I do find that soothing. So I can absolutely believe what you said about the fingers and the thing about staring to the corner of the room, it's not quite the same thing, but I really enjoy being in that state of rem, so that sort of those REM cycles. So for people who might have listened to this podcast before, who are familiar with your eyes closed, you just tilt your eyeballs up towards your eyebrows and you feel that sort of flutter or your movement of the eyes, which is the same as when we're sleeping and being able to access that now, I don't know the corner of the room thing I had heard, but I hadn't really clocked on to what you said, which is you're looking above eye level. And whilst it might not be rem, being in a different state when you're looking above eye level is something I can. I can definitely believe in, something I'm probably going to look at now myself. Because you do feel a different sensation. I've often wondered when you talk about, you know, people with summer and winters and things like that, and how much of a difference is. Yes, warmth plays a huge role. Vitamin D from the sun, all of those things play a huge role. When it's summer, you're looking up a lot more. You're not in your computer all the time, you're not in your TV all the time. You're not stuck in your home all the time. When you're out, when it's raining, it's cold, everything tends to tilt down. I've always wondered whether there is a different state of mind there. And from what you're saying, there may well be something in that. But I think they're all really, really good exercises to use. And I also like that you have the idea of maintenance, you know, with a lot of people, they sort of had. I have people on a regular basis when I have a call with someone to discuss working with me and they might have said, oh, I tried therapy or coaching or counseling or therapy or whatever, and they paid for one or two sessions with someone else and I say, well, did you think you'd get the result you wanted in a week or two weeks? And then that's it? No. Then why Would we come in with that expectation or why would we even do that? This is why you need a longer term plan or certainly what you're saying, which is just ongoing things to use outside of, outside of your time. So I want to talk about, maybe steer away from the kind of hypnosis side of things. And you mentioned about getting into business and lots of people listening, interested in getting into business or are in business and could relate to those first few words you mentioned about getting into business. So I'd love to know two things really, and I'm sure people listening even more. So one, what things you thought you knew and quickly found out you didn't know and the ups and downs of it and how you learned all that. And then two, for other people who are interested in this sort of space, thinking, actually where do I find my clients? Like I want to be a coach, I want to be a counselor, I want to be a hypnotist, I want to be any of these things. But how on earth do I find clients? How do I find the types of clients that Doug's got where there's an adventure, seekers and all of that? So maybe start off with what's that sort of initial stages been like and getting through that and creating that business.

Oh gosh, I had so many misconceptions that I had to throw out the window. And you know, everyone had to really pivot this year with COVID But for me, especially because I was just starting out with the stage shows and I was just essentially turning a profit with that. All of a sudden my income stream was gone and I either had to, I either had to, you know, get a part time job and do this on the side or I had to put literally everything I had into this and just make it work. And I'm the kind of person that I really, I don't like doing jobs that don't fulfill me and it just grates at my nerves. And so I chose the diving full in route and would I do that again? I'm not exactly sure because I, you know, I literally had, you know, I think $6,000 saved up, which anyone who's started a business is like, oh, that is, that is not nearly enough because it just, it really takes some time to build up. Not only like your website, your email list, your, you know, all the structures of what a business is, but also that credibility of people who actually take you seriously, who actually think that you can do what you claim you can do. And so I had a lot, I had a very rapid learning Curve. I was making a lot of mistakes and there was a lot of frustration. I would say to anyone who is starting a business or who is looking at starting a business, really determine what kind of person you are. Are you that kind of person who is willing to work a part time job and have that stability and do this on the side, or do you need to dive in full feet, on both feet and really feel this and really just commit to it to make those changes? If you're that second person, I would strongly advise you make sure that you've got got enough saved up, whether that's 10,000, 20,000, just make sure that you've got enough of a safety net because it does take time. And the second question, how? And the second question, what I learned about getting clients, it really came down to what worked for me because I had so many different beliefs of what was going to work. I started out with that mindset of, you know, if you build it, they will come. And I built my website. I got it all set up and I threw up a few Facebook ads. And I couldn't really, I couldn't understand why no one was clicking through, why no one was signing up for my email list. I had so many misconceptions. And part of that was me having to realize that what I understood was beneficial to people was not what they understood was beneficial. Part of what I had to do was educate people and show them these tools, these other options. And so I started expanding in other ways of reaching out to people, whether that was Facebook or Instagram or other social media. And I got a little bit of traction. But it was really, as I said, you know, I don't like doing those things, doing those kind of jobs that don't seem fulfilling to me. And it was just a struggle. And finally when I launched onto TikTok and started exploring video, it just was not for me. And I sat down and I realized I have to do something else, something that actually jives with what I like to do, that gets me in front of people and lets me deliver that message. And I had to sit down and think, what do I do? And at that point, I was already like 10 episodes into the podcast that I was doing and I was like, why don't I just do interviews? And I found out that doing those interviews and being on different podcasts, it got me in front of so many different people. And it also let me establish that credibility and show people that, you know, I'm not just on TikTok shaking my body or I'm not just some pretty picture on Instagram, Like, I can actually explain these techniques and go through them. And I also got into writing. I've been a big writer for most of my life, and just using the strengths that I already had. That's the key lesson that I took away from that entire progression was one, find something to bring in clients that you already enjoy doing. Yeah, whether that's Instagram, social media, something like that, whether that's podcasting, whether that's guest posting on, you know, established news sites to get in front of new people. Just because people say that you have to have, you know, a fancy Instagram for your business doesn't mean that that is the only way to build a business. And you can expand into that eventually, or you can hire it out or something, but really find something to focus on that, one, plays to your strengths, and two, that you really enjoy doing. That would be my biggest piece of advice for that second question.

I think they are great answers to that question, those questions, and I couldn't agree more. You just. It's like if someone wants to lose weight, if you feel like the exercise is punishment, you're not going to keep it up. But if you actually find an exercise that you enjoy, then you're going to have a lot more success with it. I built up a Instagram presence, however long ago, and it was growing and growing, and I was thinking, oh, so this is. This is going to turn my business into this. You know, this is how I start my business. This is great. And it did absolutely nothing. It did absolutely nothing in terms of my business. It was great to be able to share content, but I didn't really enjoy it. And the following that I was building, it wasn't even, you know, that wasn't even my clientele at the point. It didn't really make sense, and it took me a long time for me to start working out and putting those pieces together. But, yeah, absolutely. Doing something you enjoy, where you're going to find consistency in it. Because if you're doing anything for the pure and only reason that you expect to see a result in clients you're already losing, you've got to be doing something where, at a minimum, it brings in nothing, no money, no clients, any of that stuff, that you would do it anyway because you enjoy it, then that's the place. And because you present yourself in a better way as well, a lot more relaxed, you're actually enjoying yourself. People see you at your best. It's, you know, people, yeah, it's great to have a presence in lots of different places. But if you're not at your best in those places, then what's. What's the real point of it all? So I couldn't agree with you more, and I probably said this in a recent episode, but I'll say it again, where I was being interviewed and asked a question about what would you say to people setting up a business? My first answer was don't. And the reason I said that is because, you know, similar to the point you made when I, however, 10 years plus ago, when I first had the idea, if someone had told me, the stuff that you miss out on, the stuff you will lose, the stuff that. How much it will cost you, all of that. If I knew that at the beginning, I really don't think I would have started. And so when people wish to have all the answers straight away, actually it can be quite a good thing not to, because if you did have all the answers, you might not get going. And so I said, don't, you know, lose a lot. It's gonna cost you so much. It's all of this. It just. You have to really enjoy it. I said, but for anyone that's listening, that having, despite me having said that, that you would still do it, you are the right sort of person to do it. Because if you're willing to withstand all that just because you enjoy it and you're willing to accept the fact that if you have a business that the bit you love the most, whatever that thing is, is 10% of it, and there's 90%, a lot of other stuff that comes with it, that 10% is so unbelievably worth it then. Absolutely. So. But I could relate to all the kind of milestones in different phases that you just spoke then, without question. So let's talk a little bit about your podcast. And I know you've also got a series as well. So when you do those, when you provide that content, which no doubt you're enjoying doing, what's the goal of that content for you in terms of what is that why you enjoy it? And obviously it helps with your business. And that's all great, but like you said, you do it because you enjoy it. So I want to know, of interest, what's your why and what are you looking to get out of those pieces of. Of content?

Yeah, the first, I think five or six episodes were just solo episodes where I was, you know, figuring out my voice of what I wanted to do, and I was sharing all these techniques about overcoming anxiety and fear, and it wasn't until I really started interviewing people that I met on my travels that things just took off because that, you know, that was what I really wanted to do, it turns out, because I've built up this business so that. Specifically so that I can travel quite a bit, especially, you know, when Covid lets up and I meet quite a few amazing people, whether that's mountain bikers or skiers or climbers. And those were the people that I really wanted to be. You know, when I was living in the Midwest, in Wisconsin, there were no mountains to climb. There were no adventures to be had. And so when I first started doing these seasonal jobs and I was seeing these adventurers who were climbing, you know, these crazy mountains where you'd have to camp two to three nights in blizzard conditions and going across the world to climb these different mountains or do these cross country bike trails, there was such a gap between where I was and where they seemed to be. And it was only by eventually having the courage to ask them about their story that I realized so many of these people had struggles they overcame, and they're still working on those struggles. It's not like they were finished products. It's not like they were complete adventurers. They were still working through issues of their own. They're still growing. And so the podcast was really focused on interviewing those people, learning their struggles and learning how they overcame that to help inspire people like I used to be who really want to live that adventurous life, but aren't quite there yet. And that's. And it's not just about, you know, the standard rock climbing or biking adventures. It's about traveling and other types of adventures. Whatever you define as adventure. I believe the definition of adventure is something that is unique to you and something that is slightly risky or at least seems risky. So for some people, maybe that's just going outside. If you've got agoraphobia or something, maybe that's driving to a new city within an hour's drive or something for another person, maybe that's moving to a new country without having ever been there. But my point with the podcast was to really show that there are ways to get there and you don't have to be perfect to start on that path.

So the. So the guests that you have in your podcast sort of sounds like we said, the guests you have in your podcast, we're also becoming future clients as well. So is that. Are you finding that, or is it sort of. Was that occasionally the case that actually they'd be on your podcast, they talk about their Journey and still go. Actually, I've still got a bit of way to go. And then they're sort of. And then you're sort of, you're there and you build up that relationship.

Occasionally it happens. It's not like every single interview guest I have comes in, but it is about establishing that trust with a person. Yeah, absolutely. And they see, they start to trust me and they see the results that I've given other people. And sometimes it's not immediately after the interview. Sometimes it's like a month or two later. They're like, well, I tried out these techniques that you taught me and I just really want to learn more. And so that's what I found.

Great. Okay. And so, and so you've got the podcast. So you mentioned, you mentioned to me prior to this conversation, you've got a series as well. So maybe tell us about what people are getting from the podcast. Sorry, what people are getting from the series as opposed to, as opposed to the podcast?

Absolutely. I believe the series you're talking about is the free Hypnosis Fridays and that I have on my Instagram. And it's this area that people can test drive hypnosis. So many people have these ideas of what hypnosis is, but they've never actually sat down and tried it. And they're like 10, 15, sometimes 20 minute sessions that help people with a specific problem. It's not just me guiding people into like a relaxing state or something. I'm actually taking techniques that I've learned and practiced in these client sessions and I'm using them, I'm giving them away for free on Instagram. And I've done things from. I started out with anxiety relief, that was the obvious choice. But I've also done managing food cravings, I've done gratitude, I've done overcoming limiting beliefs. And I believe coming out this coming year, I've got one slated for panic attacks as well.

Great. Okay, so amongst those different categories that you just mentioned, do you find that, let's call it the. Do you find that the strategies. And let's also group in there the root causes, whether it's losing weight, whether it's anxiety, panic attacks. The strategies and the root causes are typically the same thing in each of those areas. And what I mean by the same thing is, of course the event or experience or thing that's holding back is unique to each individual. But actually the process in terms of one, how to find that, and two, the type of thing, the broad category that it's going to fall under for most People are pretty much the same thing. And therefore you can use your strategies to actually help with multiple different things that people are struggling with.

Yes, I couldn't agree more. I think I personally believe that there are only two real emotions, and that is love and fear. And all our other emotions are different shades of those two emotions, whether that's fear of losing something and that makes you angry or sad or guilty or depressed or something that. Or you are feeling that love and you're feeling joyful or peaceful or calm and happy. I think that at its core, so many of our issues are so similar that it really doesn't take, I should say, the techniques that work on one can really be applied to another. And talking about niching down, I first thought that when I, you know, branded myself as this anxiety hypnotist, I would be really just shutting myself off to the rest of the market. But what I found is that by being that expert, people come to me and they're like, can you also work with this? And at first I was like, I, you know, I don't have the techniques for that. I don't have the protocols or the scripts. But I just. I just tried it and I worked experimentally with this one with my first, I guess, you know, test client. And I'm like, I'm going to use these techniques. And he's like, all right, let's. Let's try it out. And they worked. And it really just opened up my idea of what was possible. When I first started out, I was so rigid in like, this is the protocol for anxiety. This is the protocol for OCD or anything like that, and this is the protocol for depression. And I found the similarities, the through lines between all of those things, and those through lines can also be established and can also make amazing changes with so many other types of work.

Yeah, I think that you referred to as through lines. I think a lot of people in this space who don't take the time to find out why the exercises and strategies they use work. And once you know the reasons why, if you come across someone to work with, support in whatever things that you might be or one might be trying to overcome or break through in, you find someone that's really confident, the reason they'll be confident is, one, they know the why. But two, sort of like you said about through lines is you start to realize that there are three, four, five ways to solve the same problem, and then actually that in any moment, you just pick one of those out and that they will have similar levels of success. You See it when people are a bit more nervous and like anyone would be when they're first starting out as well, sort of in the way you described, which is it has to be this way. It must, it must be this way. And it's a bit like driving a car when you, you learn to drive, they teach you to do it X way. What you find is once you pass the test that actually, well, I can still drive a car safely and efficiently in four or five different ways. I can do, I can do slightly different speeds and all of this other stuff. So I think that's. And I certainly feel that when I'm listening to yourself, which is people who do have that sense and that idea of it doesn't actually matter on the perfect or the what is supposedly the number one way to do it when there's actually a number of different ways to do the same, the same thing and the same trick. So I definitely believe in that. I want to ask you one more question before we get into where people can find out more about you. It's something I pretty much ask everyone I work, I speak with in this podcast. When you started out, you would have had a picture in your head of how you would have liked or how you would like things to turn out, which would have got you excited, which would have really got your sort of your heart racing, which would made you think, that's it, that's the thing. And so I wanted to ask firstly, how much does your life look like that picture at the moment? And for everyone I ask that question, it's always, it never looks exactly the same, but just the feeling you get from the current picture, I guess is probably the best way of putting it. How does the picture look like and how does it make you feel at the moment to when you first started out? And then the second question, and I'll remind you of both questions, the second question will be, no doubt you've got footprints that you want to leave in the sand to other people going forward. I'd be like to know what those are as well. So maybe that first question in terms of that picture when you started out.

Yeah, the first question on that picture. When I started out, I was in such a bad place. So I struggled with mental health, with depression and anxiety. And so I was really in that place of looking at what I don't want. And I really just didn't want to feel this terrible. And I realized that the job I was working at was not working and I just wanted out. I knew I wanted some adventure. I Had no idea what that was. It took me actually starting on that journey and fumbling around and discovering what I don't want to realize. This isn't, you know, this isn't working. I've got to set up what I do want. And that's when I started looking at this. This idea of the picture of what I want. And I started testing out. I started hiking with these adventures and rock climbing and testing out these different things that I thought might be good fits. And some were like, this isn't really for me. But others, like hiking especially that. That just clicked. And so it wasn't. It wasn't like one picture that I already formed before I started on this journey. It was this picture that was kind of a conglomeration of things I added and things I took away. And that eventually solidified into this picture of living this adventurous lifestyle and having the freedom to travel and to hike and to do a job that I love without, you know, killing myself for it, without putting myself in. Into an early grave.

And so. And then that second question, in terms of footprints that you want to leave for other people, what do they look like?

Yes. It's so cliche to say there is hope for people with mental illness. And I've been on that side of it where you are in such a deep and painful state that you don't want to hear, that you don't. It's just like this pithy statement that. That doesn't help you at all. What I really want to. What I really want to show through my podcast and through just the example I'm living with my life, is that people who are struggling, whether with defined mental illnesses or just issues in their life, they don't have to. They don't have to let other people fix them. The things that really made the most impact in my life were when I sought out things and I made changes in my life. You know, meds and therapy, they saved me from that really deep state. But what really turned the boat around and got me headed in that right direction was when I started doing meditation and hypnosis. And I just realized how much control had over my own life. And to those people struggling in that state, I would say that you always have some level of control over your situation. Whether that's changing your attitude about it, changing your actions, or helping other. Or getting help from other people to do one of those things, you always have that control. And I really just hope to inspire people to realize that.

That's beautiful. And the last point you made about things you can control. I always like to say to people about you can't control the events, but you can control what they mean. And I think when you talk about attitude but decisions and all of that stuff fit under that category. Doug, this been really interesting definitely for me, I'm sure for people listening as well. And I really like your approach to a lot of this stuff. For people who are interested in the work that you do and the exercise you do and the resources and the plenty plentiful of resources that you provide as well, where can people find you?

My main website is anywherehypnosis.com and for that seven day stress free challenge that is anywhere hypnosis anxiety-7tools, I can send you the link to that as well. For people interested in the podcast who want to learn more, they can search the Making Meaning podcast on their favorite app or they can go to anywherehypnosis.com podcast to get the last one the Instagram Free Hypnosis Fridays. They just search my Instagram. My handle is akingyourmeaning.

Great. And as Doug said, those links will make sure they are in the Self Belief Chief Podcast Facebook group. So if you're not a part of that Facebook group, feel free to join. Join us in that and we will be able to share those links and resources as well. But Doug, I want to thank you very very much for your time.

Absolutely. Thank you for having me.