Certainty In An Uncertain Time Ft. Alison Blackler | Ep 104

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People seem to forget if you change.

Today, today will change your life.

Are you feeling uncertain at the moment? A lot of people have been writing into the podcast saying they feel uncertain in their relationships and their health, their wealth because the pandemic, because of so many different things going on. So we decided to create an online portal with exclusive video and audio content called Certainty. Certainty is designed to give you that sense of control back in your life, teach you how to build certainty back in your life in your confidence, your sense of happiness and your relationships and your finances and the areas that matter most. Through meditations, through coaching, you'll be able to find access to this online portal on the selfbeliefchief.com podcast page below the podcast episode. You'll be able to access it, or alternatively, you can just go to selfbeliefchief.com certaintyhome to learn more. Anywhere you listen to the podcast in the description, you'll also be able to find a link to it as well. And the Certainty online portal is just at the cost of a Starbucks coffee and muffin at just £5amonth. £5amonth with hours and hours of video and audio content which we're continually adding to and you can cancel at any time. So if you want to go back in a month's time to that Starbucks coffee and muffin, and you're welcome to, but otherwise, we've put a lot of thought into this. I'm sure you're going to enjoy it and feel free to join the Certainty members.

So I just want to say hi and thanks for having me on your show to start with. It's a strange one, isn't it? I think it's something that none of us would have ever, ever thought we were ever going to be so restricted and have things be so different. I think for me personally, it is coming in little ebbs and flows. I think some days I'm feeling really low about it and almost, you know, quite nervous, quite scared when you start to think about different things that are in your life. And then you think, oh, gosh, that's going to affect that. And then there's that roll on. And then, you know, you think about the young people and some of the other people that are being affected. You think, gosh. And then other days or other hours maybe would go by and you're like, right, come on, I've got this. You know, I'm going to focus on this now. And so, I mean, gen, because of who I am in my training, generally, I try and be as positive as possible, but I think we have to be true to ourselves and say, yeah, it's challenging at times going up and down with the emotions that go with it.

On that point you just made, it's a really interesting point where I get clients, one of poses as a question to you, really, was, I get clients who, they see me when we're working together and they think all that, they think that that is a standard. And what I mean by that is, they look at you, they look at myself and probably, no doubt, other mental health experts, coaches, other specialists who obviously present themselves in a certain way, partly because that's their passion, that's their joy, that's their enthusiasm. And you get those clients say, you know, are you like. Is this like you all the time? Are you like this? Like, why? How are you able to do that? How are you able to be that way? Like you said, I have to be very truthful and very honest about that, which is, you know, when you're immersed in what you love to do, it gives you energy, it doesn't SAP your energy. And also when you're focusing on someone else's fear or anxiety, of course, it makes you stop thinking about your own to a certain extent. And like anyone else, you're managing that constantly. Now, you've been very truthful in terms of that, those ebbs and flows. But just out of interest, before we learn a little bit more about your business and the work that you do, is how do you find that when you're working with people where you're in your element, but the other person perhaps isn't? And there's a sort of that big distinction between them seeing you and you knowing that the rest of the time you might not be that version yourself all the time?

I think, as a professional, obviously, that someone would come to see people like us and they would expect us to be at a certain kind of point. So I would always be at that point. I'm certainly never going to burst into tears with somebody or kind of show any particular vulnerability But I think how I work very authentically and genuinely, I would never pretend for a moment that I had it all sorted all of the time. And what I often say to people is, I've been on a journey myself where I am now in terms of my confidence and things like that. I wasn't there. So I can 100% align myself to the journey that they may be on. And I know how hard that might be. But I think also one of the things that I would usually describe is I will say to people, I'm just the same, really. My response is. My response to the response is going to be the same as anyone else's. But what I have got some skills that I can share and explore with you is what I call the bounce back. So my bounce back is probably a lot quicker than maybe it was many years ago and maybe people who are still on this journey. So I'm at my ability to be able to stop that negative thinking or stop that real high emotion. I can ground it as quickly as possible. I mean, what I call bounce back. That said, sometimes it gets me and I feel, you know, no different to anyone else. The mind is super powerful and we don't come with a manual. So, you know, you do have to learn how to manage it. And I always say that's what we're doing. We're learning how to manage it constantly. It's a constant, constant thing. But I think it is true and right to show that we are all the same as a therapist and as a coach, because those that don't almost force their clients to see that the place that you're going to reach is almost unreachable because it's not a place where we are fantastic all of the time. And I would always echo any message around, it's okay to not be okay. Yeah, I think that's really, you know, it's a sort of a slogan, isn't it, that people say now. And I think it's absolutely true. We have to be okay with not being okay. And those of us that are in this industry, while we don't need to self disclose and make the session about ourselves, we do need to be able to just show that, you know, we get it, we're all in this together.

I couldn't agree more. I probably said it's okay not to be okay to two clients already today, but. So I totally agree with that. And I remember my grandmother saying to me once, particularly downtime for me is probably not quite the sentiment she meant with the words that she Used. But she said, you know, stop trying to be happy all the time. She said, you know, just aim for being content and let that be the standard and the benchmark and what you see above that. And of course the way we all feel is all based off an expectation that we create. And whether we kind of assume that oh, it's an expectation that society puts on us, well, we make that decision to adopt those expectations. And one of the most common things I say to people is that, you know, we can't control the events, but we can control what they mean. Amongst all of that is natural responses. But with that bounce back that you're referring to is actually defining what this means means is a really important element. But I think when people go through a tough phase of life or maybe the first time they go through a tough phase of life and there are always new levels of stuff face where it feels like, oh, this is the first, oh no, this is the first, oh no, this is the first time is amongst all that people go up. And my brain used to just tell me all the right answers. It used to just be doing the right thing and now they're sort of thinking. But you know, there are elements here. You getting me to do conscious things here, to actually be make decisions and take actions to consciously direct my mind. So, you know, we focus whatever we focus on, we feel to direct that focus. I didn't have to use to do that. I think with a big part of that is helping people understand that, well, there's so many other things that they used to do that weren't habitual previously. They just kept up, found the consistency and now it's something they don't even have to think about it anymore. Again, another question before we make sure that all our listeners get to know your really good backstory is from your point of view to help people get that leverage to find the consistency, to keep something up, to find the consistency that the approach, whether it's teaching them that bounce back or the other strategies that you might have that yes, it's not going to work today, it probably won't even work tomorrow, but there's a consistency like everything where eventually it's going to be something that's part of your way of life. How do you find the leverage or help people help discover that leverage so that they keep up that consistency to want to make these changes not just in the short term, but what they want is to make them permanent changes to help them make it in the long term. How do you help them find that leverage? So that they have that desire.

I think the first thing is for people to be kinder to themselves. You know, if you are on a journey of self discovery or you're trying to change something about yourself or about the way you approach things, we're often really hard on ourselves. And I think to start with, to be kinder. So if you do have a day where it's not so good to not be so hard on yourself. Yesterday was great and today's rubbish and now I feel even worse. No, no, it's all part of the process. But I believe that 80% of changing anything is being aware of what you're doing. So if you're aware of your thoughts or you're aware of that feeling starting to bubble up inside you, or that instantaneous feeling, if you get a sense of that, or you a sense that your behavior, you're retreating or you're coming out fighting or whatever your behavior, soon as you start to actually clock that behaviour, you have a chance to be able to start doing something different. And there are a range of things because I don't believe that one size fits all that you can then do. But so for me, my first place for everyone is to just start going, oh, okay, there's that thought again. Or oh, okay, I'm doing that thing again. As soon as you can start to get a tiny bit of a sense of that awareness, you, you will be able to do a lot more. Because I literally think you're more than halfway there by then.

Yeah, I definitely agree with that. And so I've teased your kind of backstory a few times. So for the people who are meeting you for the first time, we'd love to know a bit more about your journey, as you put it, and also how it led you to where you are today.

Yeah, I mean, my journey of how I am here today is the story in a way because I started out life, I suppose on paper in a great family relationship, if you like, mum and a dad and two brothers. But I was encouraged. Often I felt on the things that I wasn't very good at. So I don't think I was even encouraged. I think I was pushed in the things so much in the things that I wasn't very good at and not really notice the things that I was good at. So at school it was really hard for me. I'm not a mathematical person, but I was pushed and told, you've got to get your maths, you've got to do this, you've got to do this. And I tried My hardest to be, I guess, somebody that I wasn't and I recognized in my twenties, I suppose I used to look back and think, there's got to be a different way. Because by then I'd done all right. But I didn't really believe in myself. I had a lot of limiting thinking. I felt influenced by everyone and people were encouraging me and telling me, this is right for you, you need to do this, you need to, you know, you're not clever enough for A levels, you need to go and do this. And I was very naive and wasn't assertive at all and went along with it. So while it wasn't wrong because it was part of my journey, I definitely started to think, hang on, I don't know whether this is right for me. So I started off in the NHS in an administration role, because that's what I was told I was going to be good at. I was good at organising. But actually, slowly but surely, it's people, it's people that I'm fascinated by. And I had a. I've got an interest in people. And I think back even when I was a young girl, I was always a good listener. I would always be the one that would be there looking out for people. And so I was kind of doing it. But I also knew that I was being affected by other people's thoughts on me. So no judgment on our parents who do all the best, everybody does the best they can. But I kind of started. Maybe I was a bit of a square peg in a round hole in my family, I don't know. But I started to think there's got to be a different way of encouraging and making things happen. So I then decided to go and learn, train to be a counsellor and CBT therapist. At first started off as counselling and of course, for any of you that know about these courses, they're experiential, so you start to learn on your own stuff. So with your peers, you're chatting about your limits and your bits and pieces. So then I started to feel a bit more like, oh, okay, maybe I'm starting to understand my own path now. And that was almost the start. And then I was brought up in the Northeast and I moved to the Northwest and again, that was a big step for me, changing everything that I'd ever known and starting afresh, if you like. And that's when I really started to think, no, it's people. I need to get involved in areas where I can help or work with people. So then I stayed in the NHS I stayed in the NHS for 24 years, but then I started working in departments like worked in domestic violence for five years, I worked in drugs and alcohol for five years, I worked in safeguarding, I worked in public health again, always working alongside people and their behaviours. I worked as a counsellor for GPs alongside doctor surgeries. So I was always kind of in all sorts of departments, all sorts of areas, but still following that, starting to follow that path, but remembering running parallel with this is my own self belief about myself. I then came across nlp, Neuro Linguistic programming, which some people may have heard of, and again it's experiential. So here I am going along with my own limits and my own stuff, but you dig a deep deeper again with NLP and suddenly I started to think, actually I need to do this on my own, I need to really branch out. So 10 years ago I left the NHS at the fear for many people. I left a permanent post and a pension and some stability and a salary each month. And I left and set up on my own. And two minds still is running today and I'm able to offer services or support that I feel fits with who I am and my values, which is where I was being challenged in the nhs. So I'm now able to work one to one, I work in teams and groups, I work in prisons and all the while it's supporting people to be the best version of themselves. Knowing my own story and how hard it might be, but also knowing how possible it is because I know how powerful the mind is and that's kind of where I've found my niche, if you like, and my path. So I'm able to offer a slightly different coaching style because I've got the therapeutic style, which is why I call it mind coaching, because I can actually work with people's limiting beliefs, etc. That are deep, deep within. And then my other little journey that's always ran parallel with that is I have written a book which I was writing that for many years, off and on, often off because I was busy doing my life or work. And that's an exploration of how our minds work, making sense of ourselves, looking at our influences, looking at whether they're healthy for us, and looking at how our childhood and our formative years affects our now and then gives lots and lots of tools about how you can free self from some of those things. So in a. That's me.

I'm interested firstly to know amongst you, you know, you were already doing the work in terms of you'd Found that desire to help people on a very personal level, that thing that gets you to go, I need to go out and do this in my own way, on my own. I'm always very, very curious. And as to. I know what it is for me that made me do that. What it was for you that made you go, you know what, as great as all this is, this only really works for me if I do it this way. And what for you was that kind of turning point that made you go, this has to be the way I. The way I see it, I think.

As I sort of said very loosely, it was a values LED thing. So for me, my values around my work were making a difference. And I felt that while the NHS is an amazing organization and I'm not dishing it at all, but we were very restricted often in how long we could work with somebody for. Often, you know, saying that you could work with somebody who was, you know, really, quite, really struggling and you could, you're allowed to work with them for three sessions. It just became impossible for me to work in that environment. I understand the restraints, but I personally thought, actually this isn't the working for me. And I guess, yeah, I think I dug deep for some courage and I thought, actually, I want to prove to myself that I can do this. You know, I've been told that I wasn't clever enough for lots of things many, many, many times. And I had believed that for many, many years. And I think I was a part of me that thought, I need to do this, I need to prove that I can do this. I didn't know much about business. I'd always been employed by public sector, so I had a lot to learn. I remember one of the first times when I realized how free I was. I remember going to a networking event of which I'd never been to one before, because you don't need to network in the nhs. Sitting in quite a nice environment with a nice cappuccino in my hand and I thought, wow, this is quite cool. I've never done anything like this because I'd always worked in offices that were off wards or, you know, attached to some department that wasn't particularly very, certainly not glamorous at all. And I did suddenly had this real sense of freedom, but it came with, you know, risk. I didn't earn as much money as certainly as I've been got on a salary. I had to learn a lot. I met some amazing people to help me with promotion and websites and, you know, lots and lots of things. If There was times where I'm sure you could have thought I've done the wrong thing. But, you know, I can honestly say, and it sounds a bit of a cliche, but I can honestly say I've never looked back. And I would urge people who have got that thought ever. If I come across anyone who says, oh, you know, I'd love to do something, if that passion is there and that drive and you're prepared to work hard, I really think it's something to take on board.

It's interesting you just said that. The passion bits, the operative words there I had was asked in a conversation a little while back, I can't remember what it was for, about people starting a business. The first thing I said was don't. The reason I said that was because I said you have. I'm sure you found this as well. You have no concept in terms of the work that's required, the sacrifice. Even if you draw the whole thing out, you still don't know the sense of isolation that comes with it, the fears that come with it, the uncertainty, lack of structure, the finding your routine and skip all of that stuff. It's just don't do it. But I said, if having said all that, someone's listening and they still want to do it because they love it, and like you said, they've got that passion, you are absolutely the sort of person that should do it. Absolutely without question. And amongst all of that is that it sounds so cliche when we say something you love to do or passion or whatever, but you. Without that, it's just. It just does not work. You have to absolutely love it. And I see people who want to start business because there's more freedom, inverted commas, or there's more kind of this or that, all in inverted commas. And that's not what the life is. The life is doing something that you get, you love to do, but seeing that you make a difference to the quality of people's lives. I want to ask you what that does for you, because I know what that does for me. That feeling you get when we talk about knowing that you've impacted the quality of someone's life, I mean, for me is that it just doesn't get better than that. So if you could describe what that feeling is like for you, I'd love to know.

Really, I think that it doesn't get better than that, but for me, it still lies with them. There is nothing greater, gives me greater joy than seeing somebody grow and realize their potential or get themselves on a new path about their career or, or end a relationship that hasn't been right for them for many, many years. And just for somebody to come and say, wow, you know, even if you hear them say, you've changed my life, it's like, no, no, you've changed your life. And that when someone realizes they have done that for themselves, they've changed something that's made such a difference and there's contentment and joy and happiness within them, then for me, that's it. It's just, it is something that I enjoy watching them just get what they needed. And if you get an email or a text from somebody and say, guess what? You know, I just think, wow, that is just ace. And if I've been a part of that for them, then for me I'm happy that my.

I love how you just put that. I think that's so spot on. Where it's not even where people who sort of don't work in a kind of a one to one space, but I really love it. It's not even about the validation you feel about your own ability or talent or whatever. When someone gives you that feedback, you are genuinely just so delighted for that person. And you. Absolutely. Whenever I've got a conversation or a thank you or an email or whatever is. It's always a case of that per. You know, for me working with people, I always think of it in two steps is one is there's got to be an element where they change the filter or you help them the filter in which they see the world, that that filter gets affected or temporarily damaged or whatever, where things look different. But that itself doesn't change people's lives. The bit that changes people's lives is them taking action, taking massive action. And as well as much as you can draw out that action plan, at the end of the day, you're kind of at the mercy of that person following through with the steps. And so it is all them. Absolutely, as you said, it is all them if they make that change and make that difference. So you're right. There's very little about any sense of. Sense of validation one gets for helping someone. It's just that you're delighted for that person. I couldn't have put it, I've tried to put it better. I can't put it better than how you put it, but I totally agree with what you've just said. One of the other things I'd love to know, I think people who are interested in the sort of stuff that you do in terms of counseling and Therapy, which is I get a lot of people who come my way and want to get an idea and understanding how long it takes to make a change. And something you said, which I wholeheartedly agree with you mentioned on the nhs, I know people worked in the nhs. I know how tough it is in terms of the amount of work and the effort levels and everything else, but always, as I get told, always that sense of just can't quite get to the level we want to. We can't quite do as much as we want to, as you said. That's a common sentiment I hear. And I say to people, when they talk about working with someone for a session or two, I say to them, do you or did you think you'd get the result you wanted in a week or two? And they always, always say no. And there are elements where I perfectly understand. Sometimes people just need to have that sound board or that filter or have that conversation just so they have the opportunity get off their chest. And in itself, that can help someone feel better, but that can often feel a bit like a warm bath. In some ways. It's nice when you're in the bath and then you get out and it's when actually things are the same way. So I'd love to know from your point of view, most people I work with in the area of the stuff that I do, probably work with them for a minimum of three months. A lot of the time at your end, what do you think is. It depends on the problem. I'm sure in your line of work there are some things which are, you know, problems 10, 20 years in the making type stuff where it. It takes a long time to unravel these things. If I asked you a minimum amount of time that at least you would like to work with someone, if not, what you think would be a good guideline. I don't want to oversimplify the types of patients or cases or clients that you might have, but ideally, in your between, what sort of amount of time do you think is a good time for someone to get support?

It is a difficult one, isn't it? Because obviously everyone is different, Everyone comes with a different problem, everyone comes at a different point in the problem. So I think that often is an indicator for how long things take. If someone is absolutely at the end of their tether with it, then sometimes you can have a very quick shift because they are fed up of it anyway. They're ready, really ready, and I'm always keen to check how ready somebody is to make a change. I think I don't like to, I actually don't, personally, I don't sign people up to work with me for however many sessions because I think it's, I think it evolves and I like people to take responsibility for themselves. So often if somebody comes and they're acutely, they've got something that's really acute, that's really challenging. It might be relationships, families, relationships, dynamics, confidence, self belief, you know, any pattern that they're spotting. I always think it almost needs like a real boost, a bit like a big squirt of Dettol, you know, really go for it and then, and then almost allow people to go away for a while and live a bit and then come back and see, let's see what's worked well and what hasn't worked so well. Because for me it's about enabling people to realize that they do have the answers. And we know that coming to talk to people like us, as you say, that cathartic release, like sitting somewhere in a nice bath, hearing themselves saying it out loud, you know, often is part of, is literally part of the process. And then having someone else there just shining a light on the old thing that they've said or asking a question that sends them into a different direction, I think is the skill that people come and work with people like us. But I guess for me it is, you know, I do try and help people feel empowered to think about how they're going to tackle their own journey and their own time that they're with someone like me. Because otherwise people, I think it puts. People would put me off. So I know there'll be people out there who absolutely say no people should be signed into a six month time or whatever. And actually that I actually consciously say to all my new clients, that is not how I work. Whether that's because I was so confined when I was in the NHS and we were told you have to work for six sessions and that was it and see you later. I've just, you know, I know there'll be some people who think that it's not right in a way, but is there a right and a wrong? I just think it's better to let it evolve depending on the problem, depending on how the person processes, depending on how ready they are. I do find that you get some people who, especially with some of the more unconscious techniques that I use, that you can literally flick something out in one session. It just depends on where they are. And then I also find that some people have had something that we've explored and Then they'll come back three years later and say, I'd like some more sessions. Because I know that worked for that problem and I've now got this challenge, so can I come? So a lot of my clients are returning not because they have gone backwards, because actually they're like, oh, no, I've got this next thing now, which is a bit deeper or a little bit. I always think it's bit like an onion. You know, you come when it's really fragile and then eventually you can get rid of the fragile bits and then you can start to really think about the layers. And my own journey was like that. You know, think, right, I've got it now, I've got that. And then something else. I'm like, oh, okay, there's obviously this now, is there? Okay, then we'll deal with this. And I think, you know, that's almost how life presents things to us. And I'm a big encourager of people looking at things that were really challenging and saying, okay, what can you learn? Rather than see it as a failure or see it as a real challenge, it's like, what is it? Let's look at the real patterns in you and say, what are you keeping doing or what you're not doing that's creating this similar problem where you're caught in this cycle. And I think when people can start to notice again, it's the observation piece, start to notice again that that is what's happening. People can start to make greater changes because they know it inside out. So for me, it's so much easier then to go, well, hang on a minute. If we just keep an eye on that pattern, then you can change it so much quicker. So probably haven't answered your question very.

Well at all, David, there, you did a fine job. But I also totally agree of one of the things, as I you mentioned, about having something that works for someone and then later on they have a problem where they go, actually, if we can do it, use that same strategy, they have that confidence that that's going to help with that. And I use an exercise called scratching to sort of help people get past sort of previous disappointments or setbacks in performance and things like that and finding what works well for people. But also it is exactly like you said, it's the sort of thing but thing people go, oh, do you remember when we did that? And it only took half an hour to go through? That would be really good to try with this. And so I totally agree with that. And so amongst all the different problems that you're, you're helping people solve just to touch on to what the sort of current climate we're in at the moment is dealing with uncertainty and dealing with that kind of pressure and uncertainty, especially in a Covid environment. But just uncertainty in lots of different shapes and forms. And a lot of the things that people come to you is they feel uncertain about their family dynamics, they feel uncertain about whether they can deliver confidence is in essence the certainty that you can, you can do something or achieve something, or be something, or become something. So I would love, I think people would love to hear people probably got their hands together hearing what you might have to say around helping people with uncertainty and what your ideas around that are.

I think it's fair to say that the human brain is a certainty making machine. And when we haven't got certainty it will put us into fight, flight or freeze. It's as simple as that. Fight, flight or freeze is often known as the physical response. But we have it for social threat just as much. So if you think about the current situation, we aren't doing what we were allowed to do and we're often thinking that other people are doing things that we're not. We've got complete uncertainty, we haven't got a clue what's going on. We don't know our futures at all. So there's a fear based centre is going to be triggered there. We've lost our autonomy, we don't know we can't. We've got no control, we have no freedom, we're not able to do that, we're not able to see each other. So the relatedness of things, we're not able to link ourselves to others. And we're social beings as humans and it can feel very unfair. And those five pieces will put us into what humans feel is a social threat. We'll feel like we are unhappy. So I think the first thing that we have to remember is that that's normal. And I think that is absolutely as simple as it is. If you're having a response where you fight flight or freeze, you feel really angry at the situation, or you feel like you just want to retreat and stay under your duvet, or you're literally frozen and don't know what to do. That immediate response, if you see something on the news or you hear something, or you read something, or your friend tells you something, or you suddenly realize that you're not going to be able to go to that thing that you always go to just before Christmas or whatever, that response is normal. If we didn't have that response, we wouldn't survive. So I think the first thing is to remember that we have to say, ground ourselves and say the responses that we're having are normal. What we want to do is stop the impact of that. So we want to not go down the angry route. We want to not go down the wanting to stay under your duvet, and we want to not go down that frozen route. But in that moment, that part of the brain is five times quicker than anything rational and logical and problem solving. So that immediate is going to happen. And I think we can't even try. And it would be wrong of any of us to try and stop because it won't. So I think that's the first thing, isn't it? So if it's uncertain, if we've got uncertainty, we're going to have a response. That's our first thing. The best thing then to think is, what are we going to then do? So if it's a sign of uncertainty, do we need to learn to be okay with a bit of uncertainty and that's a skill, or do we need to go and find out information to get more certainty? So sometimes we need to find stuff out. We need to be. You know, sometimes you'll hear people saying, I don't know, what's da, da, da, da. And then people say, well, hang on a minute, let's look that up. And suddenly it's like, oh, okay, you've got your information. So I think for all of these scenarios that we're in at the moment, we are sometimes getting clarity, but we're sometimes not. We're getting very mixed messages. So all the time we're going to be being triggered. And I think the skill is to be almost to be okay with it being a bit uncertain at the moment. But that is something that we're going to have to learn to be because we don't like it. The human brain doesn't like it.

So how can people learn? So I have my own ideas in terms of essentially creating certainty. So you're sort of perceptually feeling like, actually I do have more certainty than actually I thought I did. But how can people learn to handle the uncertainty? I guess really what we're asking here is the threshold that people have for uncertainty is shifting that threshold, finding a way to actually, as you said, I totally agree in terms of the response. You know, when I speak to people, it's people are always sort of one. They're asking, they're telling you all the things they don't want. And of course if you focus on what you don't want, you feel a certain way and you ask them what they do want, they don't always quite know the answer to that. Again, that's just with how the way the brain is designed. But amongst all of that and sort of, I don't want to, don't want this. It's often, you know, I don't want to feel X. And I think reminding people that emotions are the best parts of life even when they're not, there is, I think, some truth in that. But of course, like you said, you know, the emotions are going to happen. I'm sure people come your way and they go, oh, so you're going to be able to shut that voice up in my head or you're going to make me not have to have this emotion ever again. The difference is for people, I like them to sort of think of it in terms of setting a target is the emotions are fine. The emotions aren't the problem, it's the dwelling or from a less kind of active, conscious way, it's how long do they linger. And it's actually trying to set targets of, well, are we going to get to the point where actually an emotion lasts for 10 minutes, not 10 hours? Does it affect the rest of the day and that sort of thing? Rather than go, is there an emotion or not that sort of gets create. That's sort of creating a game you can't win really. So amongst all of that and you know, that threshold of uncertainty and kind of managing those emotions and everything else with that threshold, because I'm someone that I know personally, I have to work very, very hard at it because I'm someone who really likes certainty. I like structure, like routine. Everyone's got a different level for yourself. Are you someone that crave certainty, if that's even the right word? Are you? Where are you? Do you think on that certainty scaled in terms of your own threshold?

I think for me personally, I am okay sometimes to not know, but I'm also not saying that I am void of emotions in this current situation because I think, you know, we can't get away from the fact that this is very different. I mean, you know, the word unprecedented times is often used too loosely, but I think currently it really is the way to describe it. We just don't know. We haven't got territory that we've ever been down before. But I think for thinking about how we manage this, how people can manage this, what I notice about myself and many other people Is when we are feeling like this, obviously we're highly emotional, so we're not thinking quite as straight as we want. Our task is to notice that we've gone into that and then think, stop, let's try and think of something. What I find quite often is the case is we are then focused on things that we can't control. So our attention is all of the things I can't control that. But that's where your attention is. Meanwhile, the things that are in your attention or in your control. Sorry, not your attention, in your control you're not doing. Which means you've lost your sense of purpose, you've lost your kind of ability to be able to do something meaningful or even practical to distract you from the bigger picture of the uncertainty. I always think if you were able to, even if you draw a line down a piece of paper and write all the things that are on your mind and try and plot them into the two columns, one column in my control, the other column out of my control, I can pretty much guarantee when you're in that highly emotional state, your focus will be on everything that's out of your control and nothing that's in your control. And then my stretch there is to think, well, are you even more anxious because you're not doing anything that's actually in your control? Because. And the chances are, yeah, you will be feeling even more worried because your focus is on something you can't control, but you're not doing anything on a day to day basis or an hour to day basis, or even a moment to moment. And it sounds like I've exaggerated that, but I think it kind of is. That's what often happens. So I often say to people, do that as an exercise. If you really feel like your head's full, just get. Just be curious about where your attention is. Then on the side that says, in your control, make a change, do something, go and buy that stamp, or go and do something that's in your control when in this situation that's out of your control. And I think from there, people then feel like they've got again, a bit more autonomy, a bit more focus.

Yeah, I like that. I definitely agree with a lot of that in terms of bits just, you know, our brain just goes, boom. Focuses on this, you know, the problem, the dangers, so that we learn and grow. And certainty is. It's an overall concept, you know. Yes, you want certainty in particular areas, but certainty is a sort of a sensation where actually you can build it in all these other areas. So that you do feel like you have the foundations to cope with the uncertainty in a particular area. I totally agree with, totally agree with that. I would be really interested to know your thoughts around loneliness and isolation. I think what's interesting now is everyone experiences that at some point, at some phase of their life. I think people who have, I could even say now, had yet to experience that mistake. The idea that loneliness is, oh, it's something that's sad was actually loneliness for other people is something that's scary once you've experienced it. It's a fear thing. It's actually a terrifying thought. Of course, during COVID lots of people now uniquely are experiencing for the first time, which has that sort of weird effect where lots of people feel actually less anxious because they know everyone's in the same boat all of a sudden. That's been very interesting to see that. But when people come to you, and I'm sure no doubt you've had people who've spoken about that feeling of loneliness and isolation. There are some things that, you know, of course we can do in terms of finding out those interests and things that we could do to push ourselves to meet groups of people who are like minded. There are lots of those sorts of things I always see when I work with people that those two parts, which is that, yes, we got to do those parts. And I would love to know what other ideas you might have for people, especially during this time as well. But there's also that bit of encouragement and desire to do it and without that fear of rejection or anything else that comes with it. So I'd love to know your opinion around loneliness, isolation and what you might be saying to people to kind of help counterbalance or counteract that feeling.

Again, I think we have to acknowledge that we are social beings. You know, this is going to challenge us without doubt, because generally we are social beings. I have spoken to a few people who, joking aside, have said lockdown's been the best thing ever because they're antisocial. But I'm sure that's just them being kind of quite light hearted because generally people are. Interaction is key, connection is key, sharing is key. So again, we have to acknowledge that it would be normal if we. If you are on your own at this moment in time and you're feeling unsettled, we can expect it. Sadly. I think one of the things that. I think you've just mentioned it, I think one of the Almost the affirmation, if it's the right word, what's the word? I'm looking for almost the step up that I am encouraging people to remind themselves is exactly that, is that we are all in the same boat. Because again, we are terrified of people judging us. We are also very likely to compare ourselves to others. So we unfavorably fear of rejection or fear that somebody will judge us. So we daren't pick up the phone and say, actually, I'm really struggling. I'm on my own. I'm really struggling. So there's that barrier to get through. But then there's this comparing yourself to others. You might be looking on your social media, for example, and you think everyone else is living the dream, even in lockdown, and you're not. So that in itself can cause people a lot of issues. So while we want to reach out, we need to be also very careful that we're not putting ourselves in this comparative place that is negative, because it can do that. And social media can be a place to connect. And, you know, it's probably just as well we've got it in a way. But I am hearing and seeing some people, and they've always done it, by the way, not just in lockdown, but where they're looking at other people's lives who still seem to be having a great time somehow in lockdown. And I'm not. And I'm now sat here feeling miserable because my life isn't going the way I want it to. And I think we need to be mindful of that aspect of it for sure, because. Yeah, because there's no point in damaging more of how you're feeling by comparing yourself to what you think everyone else is doing. But I think our greatest step there is to remember that there'll always be someone else out there who is feeling the same and almost that relief when you admit it. It's like it's okay to we're okay to be not okay. And let's kind of stick, you know, stick together and share without having to share your ins and outs as well. But just to say, hey, you know, I think sometimes for some people who aren't used to this, you know, maybe it's having that person that they trust and maybe having, you know, a word or something that just comes that you agree on a text, that if I send you this word, as random as it might be, I like that.

Yeah.

You know, coconuts means please reach out to me. I could just do with a bit of, you know, maybe some people need to set up little networks like that where you don't have to explore necessarily all of the ins and outs. Because sometimes that can fuel the fear centre anyway by talking about it even more. Having said that, sometimes, as we know, it's good to be able to share it. But I think sometimes it's about maybe having those. Yeah. Little code words that say, here I am, I'm still here, checking in with each other.

I really like the idea that code word because I think anything when you can create the sort of the humor that comes with that everyone kind of. Therefore, with humor kind of relaxes a little bit into it and kind of breathes a bit more with it. And just something I've sort of kind of slight tangent, but I'll bring it back kind of full circle, which is people talk about stress with money. And there's a kind of. In Eastern culture. I can't remember his name. I can't remember exactly. But part of it was talk about stress around money is a perception thing around it, of course. And to say whenever you spend money or whenever you receive money, to say arigato and that you're actually thanking that you've received the money and the thanking that you're able to spend money, that you have money to spend it. And that it's the constant reinforcement of that that actually reinterprets the what money is. It's reminding yourself that money is a great thing to be able. That I actually have to spend. And it's great that someone. And actually someone's actually going to give me money and pay me for what I do. I've got to be even more thankful of that. And doing that can consistently so to sort of bring that back full circle. I think that kind of code word takes changes that consistently changes the. Either we might call it in some cases stigma or the perception or the whatever to be able to talk. I think generations now do get better and better to talk about in general. But I really like that idea. I might well steal that for something yours.

It's a gift. I use it a lot with couples.

Yeah, I can imagine. That was great.

If one of them can feel some emotion bubbling up with a response to something that the other one's saying instead of going down the route, which obviously we're trying to stop the conflict and the argument or the unsettle is to have a word that lets. It has to be agreed. It has to be, you know, nobody can abuse it. It has to be done respectfully. But the couples have seen it so successfully they agree a word. And it's just. It says I'm going to the place. I don't want to go to. So, and it's a stop, and it's a respectful stop. And then, you know, from there, then the couple can then decide what they're going to do. And it prevents that A. It prevents arguments. It prevents one of them deciding they're going to walk out, because the walkout is a good strategy, but it can leave the other person absolutely livid. So it's an agreed thing. And I think little words like that, without having to say very much, it just gives people. I used to. Many years ago, I had a friend who, she had two very small babies and she used to text me and say, I can't even empty the dishwasher. And that used to mean, can you just pop round, I'm struggling? And it was just a way of her letting me know that, you know, as a friend, could you just kind of ask for your help a little bit? And it became a bit of a joke, really. You know, it was in a fun, in a good way, healthy way. So sometimes just little code words that you can set up with trusted people must be trusted people that won't.

Abuse it.

Yeah, I think sometimes, because that big thing of actually saying to somebody, I'm really struggling can be a massive thing for someone. But of course, the other flip side of it is, can we all reach out to each other a bit more? Because we know that it's probably easier to have somebody ask you, are you okay? And it might be easier for them to say, actually, I'm not, rather than them be the one that says, I can understand that. So I think sometimes we all obviously have to try and see how we can help and support.

I think that's a very good point as well, actually, in terms of it's almost training that, you know, there are lots of things, aren't there? You know, the calculator is a great invention to help people, but help people work out sums quickly. But no doubt it probably makes us worse at maths and that sort of thing. Lots of inventions or things like that. And I can imagine the code words sort of, as you said, it has the. Can have the flip side of the coin, which is we sort of give the autonomy away to someone else to make the. To take the stand or make the effort. But I can imagine in certain cases where it is nice to have, as you said, a connection, support network and all of those things that you feel like they understand because that's what generally what people want, isn't it, really nothing else but to feel understood and in other cases appreciated. So I Want to now really be good to ask you. Having written a book myself, knowing the I don't even know what word to use, the thrill and the simultaneous pain that comes with it, the rewriting, the thinking about writing in the first place, getting excited, then going through it, then finding it's actually really difficult, then finding really good bits to write and then getting to the end results. I'd love to know what was it that kind of pushed you over the edge to go, this is something to do, this is something I need to do. And therefore you'll spend whatever it was, the next six months, year, two years to write it, and then how it felt when you actually got it completed as well.

I wish it was only two years. So for me, it was kind of quite cathartic. Many years ago, eight years ago I started. Eight, nine years ago I started. And that was. It was me just writing and writing and writing and kind of. I'd had lots of clients who said to me, I wish you'd write all this stuff down. And I kind of felt in my own head, because of my own journey of actually realizing that I could do things myself and I didn't have to be influenced by others. I did want to share that to encourage others. So I started writing. And I used to just type into a Word document and just keep typing and typing and typing sections. I just think of a section people pleasing. And I'd write about that. Think of a section fear of rejection. And I'd write about that. And it was masses and masses of pages of words with no chapters, no structure, no whatsoever. And then I'd have whole years where I didn't touch it, and then I get it back out and I'd do a bit more, but still no structure. And often then I would open it and think, right, come on, let's. Let's turn this into a book properly. And then I'd be completely overwhelmed because it was literally just a load of words on a Word document. So I used to shut it again, think, oh, no. And then I get busy again with life or my work. And then I'd add a little bit to it and I would. And then I guess I showed it to somebody. I dared to show it to somebody who was an author himself, and he was like, you know what? There is a book in there. It does need a lot of work. But, you know, I think just actually being brave enough to share all this stuff that I'd never ever shared with anyone before, it was just always my own thoughts and almost had to push myself into that, come on, show it to somebody and make it real, rather than be like, oh, I'll just pretend it's just my stuff and I'll never make it ever. So. And then I got introduced to somebody who could help me with structure, so a book mentor. And that was the turning point in terms of it turning from a big fat word document to actually chapters and sections and books. And there was lots of shifting round. Now I would never, ever write a book like that again. And if anybody is out there with a book, get it into as much structure as you can before you load it down. Because it took us ages to move things into sections and we kept moving it and realizing that was in the wrong place or duplicated and blah, blah. So. But then I guess two years ago, I really started. I found a typesetter. I knew who was going to do the images in the book. I'd got the front cover sorted. I think I even bought the ISBN, the number, the code on the back. It was going to happen. I really started to invest in it and then I would be much more active doing it, but obviously fitting it in with my job. And then lockdown came in March this year, and it was kind of like I ran out of excuses for me to not finish it. So I spent the first month of lockdown literally reading it, editing it, reading it, editing it, working with my typesetter. And I decided to launch in April, the end of April, 20th of April this year, in the middle of lockdown, which had its challenges. And it certainly, you know, I wasn't able to deliver it or share it as I would have done if we'd been in normal life. But I'm so glad I have because, you know, people are seeing it for what I wanted it to be, which is a resource for them to feel happier. So, I mean, it has been a journey. And I'll be honest, I got sick of hearing myself saying, people would ask me, are you still writing your book? I'm like, yeah, still writing it. But, you know, again, it's a journey for me. And some of it, the gaps were because I was still processing stuff myself, I was still understanding it, or I was still working through some things or working with people on certain topics. Sometimes it was just because I was out and sometimes I was working on it, but it did need a lot of work. And then when it came in, answer to your last question, when it actually that first copy arrived, I remember the delivery guy knocked on the door in April with his first ever copy of my book. And I couldn't believe it. I literally couldn't believe it. I think I took it round with me, walked around with it for about four days. It was incredible. And then now to receive messages and photographs of people with my book saying, I've got it, I've got it, I've finished it. People have put reviews on Amazon and things, and some people, I don't even know who they are. So I'm absolutely thrilled with kind of how it's landed. And for me, again, it goes back to what we started to talk about. It's all about them getting something that helps them make sense of their life. And that is what it is about.

Amazing. Well, congratulations on that, certainly, because I know how much work and effort goes into it. What are some of your favorite parts of the Path Raffles? What parts were the things where you went, wow, I think that is really valuable for someone.

I love the concept I've created called the Resit class. And that's where you find yourself in very similar situations, but you've not picked up the lesson. So you're back in the reset class. It's like, God, I'm back here again. What on earth, how? And, you know, sometimes the reset classes take years for you to realize you're back there. But I think for me personally, realizing that, hang on a minute, I'm feeling like this again. And I think digging deep and looking for the gems in those situations, I think that is kind of one of my favourite things that I kind of created. And I mean, a lot of it, you know, it's full of exercises, it's got case studies, it's got something, hopefully for most people. So I like the fact that I've been able to create something like that. I love the fact that we've decided to go for really big text so that people can just read a little chunk and then have a think about it, go away, come back, not feel. So it's physically quite a big book, but again, for a reason. It's like that. So, yeah, I think so.

I want to ask one more question before making sure we let people know where they can get a copy of Path Traveled as well. For anyone who does sort of work that you do, at one point, as you spoke about the beginning, you had that picture, you had that vision in terms of what you might be able to do to help people. And however many years later, getting to this point, excuse me, in which that is the case, I'd love to know, sort of in two parts, when you first had that thought, working previously and work at the nhs, but said, you know what, actually, there's something more for me here. We got to today, I'd love to know, have you reached where you were looking to get to? Does it look like what you thought it was going to look like? And the final part, the second part of that question is a lot of people want to leave footprints in the sand for other people to follow. I'd love to know what footprints that you would like to leave behind going forward that other people can hopefully follow in the future as well. So I guess the first part, does it look like how you thought it was going to look?

I think it does, because if I think about my career within the nhs, it was a progression. I didn't just sign up to be a nurse and become the nurse. I had a journey that I went on and each part of the journey took me to a different thing. And I think Even in the 10 years I've been running two minds, it's almost still like that. So, yes, I've still got my actual offer of what it is. It's about helping people, support them to understand their minds and their thoughts and behaviours. But how I do that and where I do that still varies. And I love that. I love the fact that I've got contracts in prisons, in schools, I work in businesses, I work with leaders in all sorts of settings. Different groups. I run groups. Individuals that, you know, either do know each other because they're already a group or a group formed together. I love the fact that it is still quite varied journey and I think that interests me, it keeps me interesting. So it's the same stuff but in a different area, because I love meeting new people and learning and observing new people. So suppose, is it where I thought it was? Interesting question, because I don't know that. I knew. I kind of knew, but I didn't know what it was going to look like. Is it where it's. Can it still go further? I think so. I think with the book, it's got a different energy now because the book is a product that I can use to promote the work in a different way, which is great. Your second question, leaving footprints, I guess, Thinking now, you take your time. I think it's. I think for me it is. I think it is about being still being very genuine about, you know, how hard our minds can be on us and actually being able to leave the footprints that says, keep going, you know, but keep finding a way, look at things differently, try and reframe things so that you can get something out of it. So those footprints that I follow and I leave behind just to encourage people to stick with it even if it's really tough and to, you know, to reach out or find a way that's right for them. Because everyone is different and you know, we can't. There isn't one size fits all. I'm constantly saying that we are all unique. You know, as unique as our thumbprint is, we, our minds work so, so differently. And I think when we spend our time finding our true path, I mean that's what I've done. I found my own true and I'm so lucky that I love what I do and I found a business that I enjoy and I feel very, very privileged that I get to speak to some amazing people. And yeah, I'm doing something that I love. I think it's an amazing place to get to.

Alison, for people who've very much enjoyed this conversation like I have and want to know a bit more about Two Minds and about your book as well. Where can people find you?

So my website is www.two-minds.co.uk and obviously most things are on there. All my socials are on there. If people want to follow me on social, Instagram, Facebook, Everything's kind of two minds or AlisonWominds. My book is. It is on Amazon. Although I will be honest, I'm trying to encourage people to use Hive, which is a bookshop related online program rather than it just be Amazon. So yes, of course it's on Amazon and obviously we love Amazon in some ways because it allows people to put reviews on which are great for others to read. But there are other providers out there who I feel quite strongly about. I felt very proud when I was able to get it into a local bookshop to me and WH Smith because I still feel that personally, maybe it's my age, I don't know, but a bookshop is still something that's quite traditional.

Yeah, I understand that. Yeah.

So I guess it depends how you feel. If you're happy to use Amazon, it's there if people would like to buy it. If not, you can get it on like I say, hive.co.uk and it is available on ebook. If you Google path traveled ebook, there's various suppliers who will sell it to you.

Excellent. Well Alison, I want to thank you very much for your time today and some really interesting ideas for myself that I'm going to have a think and play around with. But I'm sure lots of other people have appreciated your time. So thank you very much.

Thank you. Thanks so much for having me on your show.

Are you feeling uncertain at the moment? A lot of people have been writing into the podcast saying they feel uncertain, their relationships and their health, their wealth, because the pandemic, because of so many different things, things going on. So we decided to create an online portal with exclusive video and audio content called Certainty. Certainty is designed to give you that sense of control back in your life, teach you how to build certainty back in your life in your confidence, your sense of happiness and your relationships and your finances and the areas that matter most. Through meditations, through coaching, you'll be able to find access to this online portal on the selfbeliefchief.com podcast page below the podcast episode, you'll be able to access it. Alternatively, you can just go toself belief chief.com Certaintyhome to learn more. And anywhere you listen to the podcast in the description, you'll also be able to find a link to it as well. And the Certainty online portal is just at the cost of a Starbucks coffee and muffin at just five pounds a month. Five pounds a month, with hours and hours of video and audio content, which we're continually adding to. And you can cancel at any time. So if you want to go back in a month's time to that Starbucks coffee and muffin, and you're welcome to. But otherwise, we've put a lot of thought into this. I'm sure you're going to enjoy it. And feel free to join the Certainty members.