Communication Advice To Change Your Life ft. Tim Ward

People seem to forget if you change today, today will change your life. Hello, Tim. How are you doing?

I am well, thank you, David.

Well, really, really happy to hear to have you on the podcast and to talk about your Resilience book series. But first questions first, which is how are you doing during this, just during this absolutely crazy time we've got going on?

Well, thanks for asking. I'm very fortunate that my wife and I are both doing well. Our immediate families are all. We consider ourselves so fortunate. A time when so many people are suffering, whether directly through the illness or through the loss of their jobs or just the general anxiety that people are going through because, you know, we had our lives planned up until a few months ago, and now we are living in such an unfamiliar world, such unchained chartered waters, that everybody's feeling the stress of that. So. So that is a reality for all of us. And strangely enough, because we share that reality, we tend to care more about how each other is really doing. It's no longer just, how's it going? It really is, how are you.

Actually mean something for once?

Yeah, yeah.

Well, couldn't agree more. And the thing is, you just hope that this time period is one where, you know, there's so many things in life where we have to get put in a position where our backs up against the wall and as human beings, we have that spirit to deliver. You just hope that when everything calms down, hopefully that won't be. That will be sooner rather than later. But, you know, it's going to be a while that we keep up that empathy and we keep that consideration for human beings. And that, to be honest, everything that you have got going in this new book series, you know that people continue these skills beyond this crisis, beyond this situation we're in. And one of my previous guests spoken about, it's no longer just a crisis. This is the new norm. This is it. And to accept, you know, to get understanding, acceptance to live a life in a new way. And the first thing I really want to ask you was you wrote an article recently which I found very interesting, which was, what is the coronavirus telling us? And everyone's got different definitions and meanings of people trying to make sense of the situation as if it can be connected to something bigger. It's just one of those things. But from your point of view, Tim, what is the coronavirus? Tell us.

Well, I think one of the best things that a friend of mine said is it's as if the universe is saying, go to your room and think about what you've done. And this really, the horrors of those who are being sickened aside, this is really a wake up call for humanity to pause and think, is this the track we want to be on? And I've been surprised how many people who are my friends are in my circle have actually said, you know, there are some things, things about my life now that I actually like better. I didn't like being as busy as I was. I didn't like the stress that I felt of always having to be somewhere at some time or why was I working so hard for this when actually my life is better, when I'm spending more time at home doing a hobby that I've come to really love and enjoy. So it's a chance for us to get off this crazy treadmill that our society has been on. And I've been surprised at how many of my friends are really pausing and seriously reflecting. And regardless of what happens to our global economy, their lives are going to be different because they're now going to make different choices about their future and for them, better choices. Now we are also living in an incredibly privileged part of the world where people do have choices. It's not just about their survival. This is a matter of survival for so many people. And so the other thing that I would say is it's suddenly falling to all of us to really come to terms with that, that our privilege means we get to make some choices about how we're going to be. We don't have to be worrying about how our children are going to eat. And that, I think is weighing on people more than ever before.

Yeah. And this period of time is. It is, you know, yes, of course. One of the things about this time is that actually at what point in your life is this happening? I think timing is a big thing as well and some people are in more fortunate positions. However, I'm sure you're the same. The amount of people who I would know who might suffer from anxiety, who no longer feel anxious because it's this unbelievable leveler for everyone where all of a sudden these people are anxious because they're worried about the worst thing that can happen is they go, well, actually now the worst thing has happened in a way, you know, in for some people, but also that actually now that I know everyone else recognizes the anxiety that I'm feeling, I now feel more connected in a way. Yes, we have all these boundaries, but actually social boundaries in a completely different way have come down and it's more of a, you know, people got more time and More availability. And that treadmill that you spoke of that people, you know, kind of running on is that I think often people run at that pace or move at that pace in life so that they don't have to deal with their thoughts, so that they don't have to deal with things going on. And this is what would, is really entice me about this resilience book series that you've got going on. Looking at so many different areas and so many different ways for people to not only handle what they're going through, but to make use of the time and really develop as a human being. I'd love for you, Tim, to talk a bit more about what, why, you know, what made you start that and what made you get all these experts together. Right.

So when we went into lockdown here in the United States in mid March, one of the things that, because of some of the experts that I know I really had to come to terms with was that this was not going to be a short term thing. And in a sense the short term response made sense. You think of those natural responses to a crisis, flight, fight or freeze. So in a sense, Europe and North America went into a global freeze. We hunkered down and that is a really good response to a threat if you can't fight and you can't run. So freezing makes sense, but freezing is a short term survival response. But was becoming clear just with the time it takes to create either a medicine that can help you deal with the virus or ultimately a vaccine that's going to take a long time. And people hadn't really come to terms back in March with the fact that this was not, we'll freeze for a while, then we'll go back to normal. And if we were looking at a much longer period, it really hit me this freeze is temporary. When I come out of the freeze, I'm going to be in an unfamiliar world. I'm not going to know what the way forward is. And since the virus could take many paths, really there's no way anybody can know. I thought that I could learn my way to feeling better, but I couldn't because there is no single path. And so I started thinking what I really need or I need to become better, a whole bunch of skills I'm not great at. And it's not just me, it's everybody. And that really was the starting point for this series of books. Now I'm very fortunate. I am the publisher of an imprint, Changemakers Books, that's part of a larger publishing house called John Hunt Publishing, which is based just outside of London. And my publisher there said, what we really need is to get our best authors together and put out a series of books that can help people. And when he said that, I jumped on it, David. It was like that was my call to action. My books, my series. My publishing house publishes books about transformation, both personal and social. So I have this huge network of authors that I already know and I was able to pick 10 of the best of them who had the skills I thought could be most valuable to share with other people. And I, I contacted them and I told them something that I thought was truly audacious, truly impossible. I said, we want to produce a series of books and get them out to people fast. So could you write a 20,000 word practical book in 20 days? We'll then produce it in two weeks and we'll have it available in early May. And I approached about 12 people and to my surprise, 10 of them said yes. They immediately started devoting a huge amount of their time to doing this. And I worked as an editor with them and we wrote drafts and went back and forth. I wanted to make sure that they were all practical, focused, that every page was about how do you survive in a crisis? Not just generally on your topic, but how do you survive in a crisis? And the books were magnificent. Our publishing house worked at warp speed to get them through production in a couple of weeks. Normally, you know, David, normally it takes a couple of years to write and publish a book and get it to market. We literally did this in 40 days in to market. They're now available on online retailers in less than seven weeks from the, from commissioning ten bucks. It's really never been done before in the publishing world. And each of these authors are now out there working hard, promote their books, spreading the news that there are tools available, practical tools that can help people get resilient now.

It's amazing. And that turnaround, you're absolutely right, that turnaround in that kind of industry is just, is phenomenal, just absolutely crazy. But the saying to you before this conversation, the people who were really going above and beyond at the moment, where, you know, there wasn't, you know, you didn't have to do this, but for you, you did, for you, you felt like you had to. Yeah, that's something needed to be done, which is just a phenomenal thing. And, and so, you know, obviously working with these, these different experts, some of who I, who I've had the pleasure to speak with, to get such unbelievable insights and bring it all together I'm just curious because, you know, a lot of what I do in terms of different areas is until you become more of an expert in a particular area, you're a bit of a knowledge broker. So you learn from lots of different people. You must have got phenomenal on top of the skill set. You've already had phenomenal insight from a.

Huge group of people.

So if you were to pull out a few things from all these different pieces of work and your own. What is it? What are the main points? What are the main what things? That sort of the cross reference points between the areas that people listening right now could go, you know, what if I could implement something right now that would significantly change my life? You know, there are no quick fixes. But what would you say, Tim?

Right, Can I give you two?

Please, please.

All right, so I'd like to start with Adapting and Planning. This is really the first book of the series and I think that this book is the one that everybody should read. It's by Gleb Tversky. So first the book Adapt and Plan, written by Gleb Tzipersky, who is the CEO of a company called Disaster Avoidance Experts. And so his book Full Time Profession is advising companies as to how to better prepare for the future. And in this book he said something that I think most of us don't think about, and that is that when you're planning for the future, you tend to make one plan and then you get stuck with that plan. But in something like a slow moving pandemic, who knows how the virus itself is going to unfold? So you don't want to make one plan for the future that you then be stuck with. You want to make sure that you've planned several different tracks and that the things you do now can take you along those several tracks. Kind of like if there's a hurricane coming, you know, it tends to, there's a band of where it could go in two or three days. So you might have to prepare to be at the center of the hurricane, but you also might want to prepare for just being really raining heavily for a few days. So make more than one plan and be ready to adapt to things changing beyond what you, you've planned for is the main message of that, of that book. But it gives you the nuts and bolts of how to do this in a practical way. The other book which to me was so helpful is the book Handling Anxiety, which was written by a man whose expertise in anxiety comes from having lifelong struggles with bipolar disorder, depression and anxiety, and he's become an advocate for mental health and healthcare for people with mental illness. He's a speaker and does a lot for people with these issues chronically. So for him, he's discovered, hey, now, everybody's got anxiety. And George, the author, does a beautiful job of taking things that people dealing with this lifelong condition suddenly have to offer for everybody. One of the main things there being anxiety actually starts in your body. We tend to not notice our anxiety until we're having a breakdown or a meltdown. But he says, if you can tune into your body, you can start to see where the physical symptoms that are going to show up as severe emotional issues down the line. So learning to find out what those signals are, but also learning how to calm your body, because if you calm your body, you can calm your brain. So really helpful, pragmatic stuff that I've integrated into my own life, making sure that I get every day for some long, long walks, making sure that I spend some time to relax and meditate. Although I've flitted with meditation for many times in my life, now I'm seeing it as part of my mental health. I can't afford not to spend some time being calm and looking at my breath.

Excellent. I say to loads of my clients all the time, they're so keen for me to go, oh, so say something. So something goes into my brain and it's going to change my breath. And I always say to them, the slowest way or the hardest way to change your focus, to change your mindset, is to talk or approach the brain. That is the slowest way. But the quickest way, as you've just alluded to as well, is that it's that physical movement, it's the change of body, it's the change of blood flow and the change of biochemistry sending different signals and all of that stuff. But I really like what you said and took from that. In terms of actually just using these as trigger points, actually, in terms of your physiology actually understanding your body to know if there are signs towards that sort of thing, I think that's a fantastic. Definitely integrate that. I think that's a fantastic point to take away from your point of view, Tim, in terms of what you wanted to put across. You've got all these different experts, all these different skill sets from different people. In terms of you personally, Tim, what did you. What was the message you wanted to get across that actually from your experience, from your skill set, your background, what did you want to be able to share with the world?

Well, I wrote a Book called Virtually Speaking. I co authored this with my business partner and wife, and for 25 years, we've been teaching individuals and organizations how to communicate more effectively. Really wonderful folks working with the World Wildlife Fund and the the World Bank. So development of the environment are our main issues. And we're really good at helping technical experts come across as human beings with powerful messages to share. Now, when it comes to doing this in the virtual world, we realize that there's a whole new set of challenges that most people are pretty bad at realizing. And we're bad at it because we've been communicating in our computers, in casual conversations where it doesn't so much matter that we're getting a message across. We're using them to talk with grandma or perhaps to, you know, have a. Have a chat with a chat with a friend, and that's just fine. But when you're trying to communicate and you want to clearly change the thinking of your audience, you have to get them paying attention. And the computer is the worst possible way to have somebody pay attention. This laptop, this screen that's in front of us all is a weapon of mass distraction. The minute the person on the screen gets the slightest bit boring, what do you do? You check your emails. You go on social media, see what's happening on Facebook. You work on another document that you may have open. There's so many distractions right there on the screen. So you have to work really hard if you're going to professionally communicate to make sure your audience is paying attention. That doesn't just mean shouting at them. That means organizing your content so that you're never dull. That means you need to go shorter because you're going to lose people if you'd start rambling. And it also means find ways to be interactive. One of the metaphors that I use in the book is I say, look, if you were watching somebody on the street who is juggling five flaming torches, that might hold your interest for 20 or 30 seconds. Anybody who's been through Covent Garden has seen this. The pins are up and they're flaming. The guy's riding on a unicycle and he's yelling. But the crowd moves on. It gets dull after a while. We need change. We need constant new ways of keeping us engaged to hold our attention. One of the best ways to do that is by having an interaction with your audience. Imagine the same guy juggling the pins now. He's juggling them with you. He's tossing them with you. You have to toss them back. Now. Are you paying attention 100%. So interaction in video, in video calls that are important is one of the best ways to keep people paying attention. And that's one of the main messages that we have in our book. It can be done. And in fact, if we get good at virtual communication because it allows for interaction at a much greater level, then we may discover we don't need to fly all over the world and go to conferences, that we can maybe work well from home. And ultimately we know, we know we can't be flying all over the world and cope with climate change. We know our lifestyles are going to have to change. And so for me, that's one of the communication opportunities that this virus is giving us. It's helping us shift to a world where we don't have to fly everywhere to get our message across.

I mean, wonderful. And the virtual communication thing, it's so important. I think most of us, we either, what do we do? We either text or we're face to face. That's the normal everyday life. Now face to face is gone and people are carrying on the texting aspect of things, whether you know, personal life or work or whatever, you know, carrying on texting. And they haven't, a lot of people still haven't quite realized actually what, that's not a fix for their well being. It just isn't. That's not communication, that's not rapport building, that's nothing in terms of human interaction. And I've said to lots of people, you've got, you know, texting, phone conversation, video conversation and face to face, they're sort of the regular options. I think a lot of people still feel almost like whether it's because they feel they're tech illiterate or whether they feel like actually video conversation is not that great, isn't that effective, whether it's work or personal life. And they think video conversations are in the middle between texting and face to face. But really it's as close as you can get to face to face as possible. So it's an incredibly important skill. And, and I've been tested to the limits in terms of, in terms of every conversation. I'm sure with, in your, in your circles, you've been tested to the limit as well. Please, if there's anything else for the people listening who have also been tested work wise or other, you know, otherwise, and are sick of just, you know, people talking too much or, you know, just not knowing how to navigate this stuff, please give us more insights because there'll be so many people Listening who want those insights. Sure.

I'll say one thing that technologies like Zoom and WebEx and Team and all those give us, that's really important, and that is that they do give us the face of the person we're communicating with. And so this mimicry of face to face is actually really important for us as human beings. When you think about it, we evolved for millions of years in small intimate bands in the African Savannah before there was language. And we understood each other well because we could read each other's faces. So huge parts of our brains are devoted to processing the expression on someone else's face. That's what our brains were built for. Only in the last hundred thousand years or so have we started to develop language. And only in the last five or six thousand years have we started develop written language. And really only in the last hundred years has written language become widespread, something that everybody has. So this is a very, very new skill. It only takes a smaller portion of our brain. And if we spend all of our time working with that, we're missing out the huge rich parts of our neural networks that helps us process human information with depth. So I would say it's worth getting on a call and seeing people face to face. Now it's a little disorienting to do those gallery views where you've got dozens of people on the screen all at once. That's fine for seeing who's in the room, but then getting the person you're speaking to with their face that you can see and read actually helps your brain be more normal, whereas texting is just giving you a little hit of dopamine. But it's not using all of who you, who you are to communicate.

Yeah, and what you said about depth, I mean, the amount of people I speak to where what they're looking for is depth and meaningful conversation and absolutely where often just finding that is for people who are missing out on that right now. It is that all the, you know, every expression that someone has and you know, as you'll know better than anyone, communication at what, whatever percentage of it is to do with non verbal cues and everything else is to do with body language and actually understanding and be able to read someone allows you to access the depth. There is no way to access depth without those things that you just mentioned, which is absolutely true. And I want to lead God, please, please. Tim.

Yeah, I should just add, since this is a podcast, I should add that there's also tremendous amount of depth in the human voice that although we, we realize what the Information is we can get that from a text. But when you hear somebody's voice, you hear, if you like, you hear their spirit, you hear where they're coming from, you hear what they care about, they hear what they're in, you hear what they're indifferent to. So just the audio channel where you're listening for all of this depth gives us so much important information as well.

I think that's a great point considering the irony of me saying, everyone listen.

To base and we're on a podcast.

So extremely valid point and we'll move on. So and on that, but, but on that point is, you know, I think if people can get, if go to this, you know, people are looking often for more conversation and better networking and all of these things. Actually this is a great avenue to warm up to face to face conversation where you might feel uncomfortable in terms of those networking and everything else. And actually this gives you that kind of platform to actually get used to it and do it on a more frequent basis. You know, confidence and anything like that. Clarity brings things closer. You'll get more and more clarity the more you do this stuff. And technology like this absolutely allows you to do that. I know many people off the back of that will be thinking, okay, how do I build rapport and how do I build instant rapport so I'm not going to have to see them? However many times I want to get that connection with someone, I want to understand that whether it's via video or face to face or whatever, I want to understand how to really relate to someone so that they can. A lot of people would say to me, so they can let me in for whatever reason, that being, whether it's to build a better world through business, whether that's in their interpersonal relationships for you, Tim, instant rapport. What can people be doing to build that really strong connection with people?

Well, one of the best things you can do and that online communications is well suited for, is you can learn to ask them questions that invites them to tell their story.

That's great.

So not simply the question of how's it going, but so what are you experiencing in your daily life that is new for you now? Or what do you notice about how your relationships have changed since you're only communicating with so many of your friends virtually giving people an opportunity to explore their own experience and put it in a terms of, of a story. And I'd say one of the books I'm proudest of in this series is called the Life Saving Skill of Story, which talks about how important storytelling is to us as human beings. Both the ability to tell your story and tell it well, but also to listen to others and how they frame their experience as a story. This, to me, is absolutely crucial for us at this time becoming good storytellers and equally good story listeners.

Yeah. And storytelling is always going to exist in every capacity. And it's just one of those things that has done wonders for me and does wonders for so many other people. And a point you made there as well, Tim. I always. People may have heard me say this before, but I think all communication can almost be boiled down to one of two E's, empathy or expectation. And actually so often that we all have expectations. This person should respond like this. This person should do this. This person, I want them, I need them to do this. Why haven't they done so many expectations that we might create, which often, if we lead with expectations, well, people just put their wall up, don't they? As soon as expectation goes in, it's like, well, no, I've seen this before because, you know, this is how a lot of people will lead into conversation. Now, expectations aren't necessarily a bad thing. I certainly want to stress that. That. Because there should be certain demands and expectations. And it also encourages people to push themselves, which is what's required. But when we talk, something you said in there, which made me think of like an olive branch, essentially allowing people to explore their story, explore their feelings, explore what's going on, is to also back that up by saying, if people find ways to lead with empathy, not that this person should have called me now, this person should have done this, this person should want to meet up and network and, you know, have these conversations to push this business forward or whatever it might be, is actually leading with that empathy. And you can just. I'm sure a lot of what you do is similar, which is how you can disarm people with empathy.

Yes.

But by sort of allowing them to explore that particular channel. So I totally buy into what you're saying and totally agree with that. And for anyone listening in terms of rapport, you know, whether it's sale with people in sales, it's just an incredibly important thing. But it's exactly the same in sales, isn't it? It's allowing that person to explore their own story. It's not.

You need.

How can I, you know, what all of these things often say in sales, yeah, you need a script or whatever. But actually, if you just allow the person to just, you know, no one's allowing them to tell Their story. As soon as they get the opportunity for you to just sit back and listen, and they go, wow, they're still listening to what I'm saying and tell my story. It really catches people off guard, isn't it?

Yes, it does. Yes, it does. Now, and I was gonna say, in. Storytelling invites us into empathy, because you may disagree, you may disagree with someone's political views. Let's say you have a view about the future of the UK in the eu, Brexit on its own. So you may have your own opinion on that. But if someone shares their own experience, maybe their. Their experience of a foreigner in the UK who had to leave when Brexit went on, and that might have been hard for them, when they share what their experience is like, you can't argue with the truth of that experience. So the truth of the experience invites us to share it as part of our human story. And that naturally creates empathy. And I think many political disagreements would be softened if they began with people truly hearing each other's story. We would say, you know, I want to hear where you're coming from. So our stories create that context of where we're coming from that can help soften any sense of judgment or expectation of how you should think or what you should do.

I love that. Yeah, absolutely. And I think we could certainly do with a dose of that in the uk. But going from allowing people to tell their story, Tim, how can we. How can people be better at telling their own story? Because as we've just been discussing then, actually how powerful storytelling is in so many capacities. And I know that you've got things in terms of ted's, you know, TED style talks, in terms of speaking with authority and leadership positions and how important storytelling is, how can people be better at powerfully and concisely telling their story?

Yes. So the absolute key, and we teach this in our courses, and it's in the book, virtually speaking as well, the absolute most important thing is you have to use your words to turn on a mental picture in your audience's mind so they are seeing the movie of your story. This ability to evoke vivid images is one of the most amazing things about being human. So for you and your. All the. All the listeners to our conversation, if I say a red rose in a green vase, your mind explodes with that mental picture. When you think about it, this is a miraculous thing we have as a species. So if you start your story or if you include in your story just enough vivid detail to make it a picture in your audience's Mind, they are seeing the movie of the story that actually creates in. In their own imagination something similar to your experience. They see what you're seeing. They can hear what you're hearing. So I can give you a quick example of two ways you could tell. You could tell the story, one which is terrible and one which is great. And this is an actual story from one of the participants in the course that Theresa and I gave. So this is the bad way to tell it. So I found myself going to Cambodia for a work assignment, and I thought, gosh, it would be really lovely to get out and see some of the jungles while I'm in Cambodia. So I started googling to find a good travel agent, and I found somebody that could set me up in a really interesting forest area tour. So, yes, I could tell.

Right.

I hope your listeners are still with us. You've destroyed their listening because you're just telling them the bits and pieces. Then this happened, and that happened. So instead, start with something vivid that brings you into the picture and into the story. This is how we coach that very same person to start their story. I never realized there were so many shades of green until the day I found myself hopelessly lost in a Cambodian jungle.

Oh, I got shifted just from that. Yeah, yeah, I get it. Right.

It puts you right there in the story. So use vivid language to make your story come alive.

That. That's. Yeah, that was awesome. And. And it. And it makes total sense to me because if I ever am trying to, you know, change people's state of mind and coach them, is that I always. It's always worth mentioning to them. And for people listening, it's the same thing, which is all your emotions are contained in a picture, in a picture that you have in your mind. And often the way to change the emotions is distorting that picture. Wherever the picture is in the screen of your mind, you have this picture. And like you said, it's. It'll be a vivid picture. It'll be bright or be colorful, not necessarily of what you want, because we obviously have a brain that's designed to help us survive rather than make us happy. So a picture focusing on what we don't want, it's unbelievably bright and vivid and, you know, and all of this stuff, and it's just overwhelming. And that's the picture that's overwhelming. And inside that picture is a load of emotion. But actually change that and distort that picture, all the emotion changes as well. So I totally buy into it. And you're Right. In terms of people listening and, you know, the stories we tell ourselves as well. I think exactly what you said, Tim. But also people bearing in mind actually what's the story you tell yourself? What does that picture look like?

Yes.

And actually telling that story, not just. And I'm gonna bear that in mind, which is almost not changing the picture. Sorry. Not just, you know, actually not making it a different story or pretending it didn't happen, which is certainly never the best thing to do. But the way you're saying is, can you tell the story differently? And I always say you can't control the events, but you can control what they mean.

Yeah.

And with that, in terms of that storytelling aspect is really, really useful for the, you know, some of the best leaders that we, you know, people will know and the names that come to mind are also some of the very best storytellers as well. And they can paint that picture for their colleagues, but probably more importantly for their customer. They understand that picture really well. When people are looking to speak with authority, Tim, and people want to convey that sense of confidence, what are the keys that you tell them? So, of course, storytelling is a huge part of that. What else can people be bearing in mind in terms of they really want to speak with authority. What else can they be doing?

Let me say one more thing on storytelling first, if I may. And this is in our book Grow Stronger in a Time of Crisis. It's a very unusual book. It's written by somebody who's a. A master of neuro linguistic programming, nlp. And she's been teaching courses on personal growth for more than more than 20 years. And she has a fascinating exercise in her book, which is about the stories we tell about the other people in our lives and how they can actually change what's possible for us because often we feel our own limitations. So she has this one wonderful exercise which I remember vividly because I did it, which is if you've got a problem, a challenge you're facing, what you do is imagine you're sitting at a table with three empty chairs in front of you and you mentally put three people in your life in them. Somebody who knew you a long time ago, but was a very close person to you then. Somebody who you know now and they have somewhat of an antagonistic view to you, maybe somebody at work and then somebody who dearly loves you. In my case, I chose my mother for that. And then you imagine each of these people seeing you handling with this challenge. So you'll take a look at your old friend that you knew many years ago. And you'll imagine their story of you handling this challenge now, and you'll start to see yourself through their eyes as they speak. And when you see that person's imagining their story of you, you feel the resilience that that old friend sees naturally in you. And when you feel that story through your own eyes, you actually feel it in yourself. And even the person who's antagonistic, they're also recognizing some of your strengths. So you see, okay, they maybe they may have these doubts about me, or they may challenge me on this, but they also recognize this in me. So I see them through their eyes. And then you see them through the person who loves you dearly. My case, my mother. When my mother sees this challenge and how I deal with it, I feel this deep sense of being understood in the midst of it. And just going through that simple exercise gives you tremendous strength through the imaginary storytelling of three people in your life looking at you. It's a fantastic exercise. I actually did it when I was looking at the creation of the Resilience series, and I found it gave me trouble. Tremendous personal strength at the early stage to make this happen. So that's in our book, Grow Stronger in a Time of Crisis. Fantastic combination of storytelling and human psychology.

Because we do make up how everyone else defines us. We really, you know, have no understanding. And, you know, in some cases, it's not our business what other people's opinions of us are or whatever, but actually, you're wrong.

Exactly. And we can all. We can all too easily become obsessed with one person who maybe doesn't like us. We imagine their story of us. Well, that might be wrong, too. That story we've imagined of somebody who doesn't like us. They may not even be thinking about us at all. You can choose which of those stories to pay attention to. And the ones you pay attention to can give you tremendous strength to be more resilient.

Very interesting. Just regularly, it's just. It's always about what people have to say about the people in their life. And, you know, another thing is that everyone wants to feel understood. And in that understanding, sometimes people, when I get them to sort of contribute more or give more, because that's the thing that really seems to light them up and really gets an understanding of actually, you know, they say, I'm really good at helping people when people ask for it. And I go, but what about all the people who don't ask for it? And they're too shy or they're too vulnerable or they're, they're not up to whatever. How many of those people, because you haven't sort of put your arm out, are actually, you know, these are people who are not getting your help. And they're going, yeah, but this person thinks this way of me, or this person doesn't like me. And I go, okay, so. But, you know. Yeah, tell me. So what did they say to you? Well, no, but they didn't say anything. But they did that thing. And I was like, what thing? Okay, well, they didn't do anything. Okay, so what? So why don't they like you? I guess they do. We probably get on quite well, actually. Okay, cool. But those. And it's. And I wanted to just make that sort of point because as much as we talk about these small things in terms of understanding other people's stories and people might look at it within the frame of whether they like me or dislike me is actually on a much bigger scale. People can see when it comes to things like conflict or politics or other things or other things where we just create that story of someone else and it prevents a conversation being as effective as it could be, allowing us to get the kind of growth and progress that especially right now, we particularly need. Which is why I find what you do so fascinating. And so I want to move on to something that I came across of yours, which I was desperate to hear the answer to, which, because I can think of times where I have been in this situation, which is the unexpected questions when you get put on the spot and at this moment where, you know, people, they want to break the ceiling of where they are and they want to do more in their career or they would have more ambition or more successful success, or they want to grow in this area. Grow in this area. And at the beginning when you start something, you get that immediate rush like, yes, this is a great idea, I'm going to do it, I'm going to find a way. And that first ceiling you hit or that first barrier that you hear where people. Someone goes, hang on, so just what about this? Or someone goes, how do you know this? Or, you know, basically questions whether you're an expert or questions whether you have the capability or whatever. And for a lot of people at that point. Point, because they're just ill prepared for that, that's just an. Often a point where they switch off, where they might live a smaller life, where they might give up altogether, there's some very real consequences to not being prepared, that sort of thing. Now, I've been in a situation where you get put on the spot with a question, you just think, oh my God, where's that come from? And I know you've got work in terms of when it comes to things like Q and A, panels, meetings, all of that stuff. And I was desperate to know what you'd have to say about something like that, how people can be better prepared. Right.

So first of all, unexpected questions are part of what makes any interview exciting. It's one of the things I look forward to when I come to be a guest on your. Your show is what haven't I thought might be a topic. And so having a welcoming attitude towards unexpected questions is really important. So that's the first thing that I would say. The second thing is perceive skepticism as engagement. We often perceive skepticism as negative, as if somebody is trying to tear us down or they don't agree. But somebody who's asking a skeptical question is somebody who's ready to engage to find out what is so. So welcome skepticism, and not just welcome it, but don't try to convince the skeptic right away that you are right and they don't know what they're talking about. Right. So welcome the exploration. I found actually that many people who are skeptical or critical, it's not so much about what I'm speaking about, the truth of it. It's much more about their attitude to life. They see themselves as a critic. They see their value added as being able to pick out the weakness in anything somebody else has has said. So rather than disempower that by saying, you clearly don't want what you're talking about because it's so clear I'm right, you're disempowering that power of the critic. So welcome it rather than trying to change someone's mind, invite them to explore in more depth. And I can give you one short story of probably the worst, the worst experience of that. In my career as a communications trainer, I was doing a course on communication skills for answering questions in the media. And after the first learning session, somebody stood up and he announced himself as actually the head of communications training in this organization. I'd never met him before, but he was very senior training person who was in a sense, spying on us by taking our course. And he then said, I believe that the model that you've just told us for answering questions is unethical and may do more harm than good. And I don't think that it's really a good thing for organization at all. Now, the main thing that I had taught was answer the question First, So I didn't even see where he was coming from at all. And I was very young in my career at this point. This is more than 20 years ago. But I was able to look at him and say, I appreciate your skeptical attitude, empathy, and I would invite you. I would invite you to stay in the course and continue to be skeptical and ask questions, but also see for yourself, is it working? Is the way you and other answers questions using this model actually effective? And because he was, like, ready to leave, but he said, all right, and he sat back down and he attended the rest of the course. And I tell you, this is true. At the end of the course, he raised his hand. He said, I have something to say. And I have to say, I was going, oh, my God, here he comes. And he stood up and he looked around and he said, this is the best course that we've offered in our organization on communication. And I think everybody should take it. Thank you very much.

Oh, brilliant.

And I realized, communicated frankly, I think it is a good course. But I realized for him being acknowledged for the valuable role that he was providing as a skeptic, that's what mattered more, because it allowed him the space to continue to be skeptical without being judged or criticized for it. And so I've kept that with me throughout my career.

And that's a brilliant story. And I've done a lot of kind of research on groupthink and whether that's something you're familiar with. A lot of people listening probably might have heard of it, but not sure in terms of the different roles someone can play within a group setting. And I think that you're right in terms I thought. I really wouldn't have thought of responding in that way necessarily, but absolutely, completely disarming him and the acknowledgement of that, that, you know, in a group setting, that type of person is actually very, very valuable, is valuable. And actually acknowledging someone for. For that particular role. Excellent. So when it comes to just go back to the kind of leadership and authority aspect of things, I just want to know, really, maybe you've got people that you look at and go, they are fantastic communicators. They are effective storytellers. They really are just the epitome of what we talk about, what we write, what we do in our courses. That is the sort of role model to look at from your point of view, Tim. Who do you. Whether it's people we would know or not.

Who.

Who do you. Who have you come across or who are you aware of that you get? That's an effective communicator.

The person who first comes to mind to me is Donald Kabiruka, who is the former president of the Africa Development Bank. He ran this giant organization which provided roughly $10 billion of loans and grants every year to developing countries in Sub Saharan across Africa. And what made him such a powerful leader is whenever he spoke, you could hear his authenticity, how much he cared about the future of Africa and how optimistic he was that the people of Africa could create a strong future for themselves. And specifically the fact that he did this with no sense of ego. He was a servant leader. He was only there in service of Africa and the people of Africa. And that rang through every time he opened his mouth.

He.

It made people, because he was leading for the sake of others. It made those who are in his management team want to follow him, want to be on his team. The people who were on his team, they worked harder than almost anybody else I've ever seen. And when they had a good idea, he would see where it was coming from and he would say, run with it, go with it. He was ready to empower others. And as a communicator, he would give praise generously. But he could also speak with a real sense of vision. And for me, this ability to speak with a sense of vision, you know, a sense of hopefulness, especially in a continent like Africa where you can see so many bad news stories. But he also saw the success stories. He saw the businesses that were flourishing. He saw the communities that were moving from poverty to provide a health services and education for every child. He saw those and he could speak to them incredibly eloquently.

And I had a real interest in speaking and public speaking and communication for a long time, ever since I remember doing my dissertation back in the day and doing well on the written paper, but the score really being brought down by my presentation. And from that point on I just thought. And it was, it was a shambles. I'm not going to question the mark I got. It was an absolute shambles. But I realized the communication aspect was so important. And the word you use, which is the word I just kept, just would keep coming across when learning this stuff is authenticity. And it was nothing else really. And I built up that skill set after a while. I remember someone coming up to me after a talk and, and saying to me, can you help me me with the way I talk with my presentations? I'm terrible at them. And I'm now doing a presentation for something that I'm, you know, an interest or a passion of mine. I've been asked to do it. I'm used to doing all these presentations with work and things like that, but I want to try, I want to transfer into this new area. I remember saying to them, and I've said this to quite a lot of people. Is that often with public speaking or speaking, you know, speaking in any capacity, if you're going to be a much better communicator, if it is something you're passionate about, where you do have that gen, you know, it's everything you come across with. Talking about good communication, can't get my words out. Being authentic, being genuine, that when it's coming from that place of something you're passionate about. A lot of people find really good ways of being effective communicators. Yes, they can find that extra 5 and 10%. But for a lot of, you know, when people see a presentation, I do, if I go and talk about something that has no relevance or no passion to me, I'm not going to be a fantastic communicator. I'm not going to be a good communicator at all. I think a lot of people. You say the word authenticity well, for people listening to that is if there is an area of your life that you're passionate about, other ways that you can contribute more to your community, to society, to the people closest to you in whatever way, to share that passion with the level of authenticity. Because as soon as someone sees that authenticity that you just mentioned about, it springs people into action. And we need, especially at this time in the current climate, we need people to spring into action. And no doubt, Tim, that people that you've come across and listen to, who inspire you, it also helped you spring into action. And you know, and luckily for all of us, it's got you to spring into the action of creating this series as well, which I'm sure for a lot of people listening as well, but many, many others will really, really appreciate. And so the final kind of question I want to ask, and then I really want to make sure that people know where they can kind of get this series from, is for you, Tim, in everything that you've learned, in everything that you've studied and the wealth of experience that you have in terms. I always like to ask people the question about the ups and downs, the ups and downs in terms of entrepreneurship, the ups and downs in terms of their own business, the ups and downs in terms of their passion, where you are going to face them. So a little bit off topic from what we've spoken about, but no Doubt you've had your successes and your failures and you've reached a certain level for people listening, who, listening to you and thinking, I really want to aspire to be able to contribute on that kind of scale as well. How can they deal with the ups and downs which will, you know, over the decades that they will, that they will face? How have you managed to deal with them?

Yeah, you know, this is a super important question because when you're down, you can feel like you're losing and when you're up, you can feel like you're winning. And the reality is in everybody's life, there's going to be ups and downs. And if you identify with where you are on this seesaw, this teeter totter of life, if you identify with where you are and your sense of well being depends on being up, up or down, then you're going to spend a good portion of your life miserable.

Yes.

Because that's like if there's, if there's no up and down, you're either not alive or you're not trying things that are hard enough.

That's very good point.

Very good point. So the question is, how do you balance on this teeter totter of life? I wrote a book with a brilliant psychologist called Indestructible you, which talks about the eternal seesaw as you go up and down in life. And the key to remember is that as long as you were on the seesaw, you are alive and you are living. So to switch metaphors and look at it as a wave in the ocean, there is a trough where things are low and then there's a crest where things are high. And the waves just move back and forth and back and forth. And that's what land life is like. If you identify with that surface of the water, you will be in turmoil. When you're down, you'll be wishing you weren't down. When you're high, you'll be afraid you're going to fall. But if you can see that the ocean is actually very, very deep and way more than 95% of who you are as a depth that is not churning, then you can see that your actual being is fine, whether you're up or whether you're down. Now, the problem is if you really live in the depths, you surrender something for the highs. You surrender feeling that now I've won, as if that moment will last forever. You recognize there's going to be a down. But you can also come to see that playing the game is winning, is being able to be up and down and up and down is all winning. And even if when things are bad, you can hold on to the sense of I'm alive and I choose the beauty of life. Now, I don't say this lightly because right now people may have lost their jobs, people may have lost loves, loved ones. In fact, we have one whole book about navigating loss in the series because loss is very real and loss hurts. But if even our loss we can remember to look around and see the beauty in this present moment that can't be taken away from us. And I've known in my life and in my travels a lot of people who've lived very, very hard lives, but they've kept their authentic sense of life's beauty and life's mystery. That's something that can never be robbed from a human being. So that's for me is the answer.

And that's so it's really interesting that you you mentioned it in those terms. I remember many, many years back after having lost someone close in my life where really struggling with it, I remember going on abroad somewhere I'm struggling to remember where, but I went to a cathedral. I remember looking up at the ceiling of this beautiful cathedral and I remember thinking that whatever you're going through, there's beauty somewhere in the world and it's your job to find it. And that's one of those guarantee. And that's why I find it so interesting the way that you just mentioned it and just how it sort of ties in specifically with that because you're right there and unbelievable hardships going on at the moment. But there is beauty to be found. Whether we're ready to find it right now or not is fine. But at some point being able to step out and go look for it again or find it in whatever capacity is beauty from your definition is an incredibly important thing. And Tim, this has been a really worthwhile conversation for me and you shared a lot. I've written a hell of a lot of notes down for myself, but for the people listening, unbelievably useful conversation as well. Tim, this Resilience book series, which I think is a phenomenal thing to have done one in such a short space of time, but to do it in so many different areas and be so considerate of so different, so many different problems that are going on at the moment is fantastic if people, you know, I will share it within my my circles and the for people listening the self Belief Chief Facebook podcast page, we'll also be able to share a link to it But Tim, if people unbelievably good to see to get hold of this material, where can they find it?

So the easiest place is we've got a website which has not only all the books there, but you can click on a button on each book and find the places you can buy it in different countries. And that is resilience books dot com. Say it again. Resilience books dot com. There's also a contact page if anybody wants to do a review or have an interview with an author for, you know, if that's what they, what they do that they can easily click on each book's link and that'll put them in direct touch with, with the author or with me as the publisher of the series. You can also find a series of YouTube videos by the authors there too, to hear from from them directly. They're an amazing group of resilient men and women who've got lots to share.

And I can vouch for some of these amazing individuals and I look forward to hearing more from some of the others I'm yet to be introduced to or yet to converse with. But through Tim's very educational methods on communicating virtually, I will now seek to do so with them as well. Tim, it's been an absolute pleasure and thank you very much for your time.

For me too, David, and to all of your listeners. May you have a resilient and beautiful future.