Ep 189: [Interview] Handling Conflict ft. Kwame Christian

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People seem to forget if you change today, today will change your life. To keep up with the latest episodes, make sure you subscribe to the Self Belief Chief podcast Facebook group. Download your favourite ones and this episode is brought to you by ODD Health. The easy way to speak to a nutritionist Take control of your health and your body. With the support of registered nutritionists online through the Odd Health app, you can even take a free questionnaire so that they can understand more about your goals to help with your first consultation. If you want to know more on the selfbeliefchief.com podcast page underneath the episodes, you'll be able to find more information. My guest today is Kwame Christian, the director of the American Negotiation Institute, as well as a best selling author and speaker and he is an expert in the field of negotiation and conflict resolution. He's also the host of the world's most popular negotiation podcast, Negotiate Anything. And I know that Kwame is dedicated to empowering others through the art and science of negotiation and persuasion. So get ready because this will be another great episode for you. Hello Kwame, thank you so much for joining me. How have you been doing in this way what has just been a crazy, crazy world right now?

Hey David, thanks for having me. I am surviving and in 2020 I will take it.

Yes, that's the baseline now, unfortunately for this year, isn't it, in terms of what has just been such a crazy, unpredictable year. But as I said, thank you so much for being on and really just I want to crack on by you know, you set up the American Negotiation Institute and doing the research around that is, I mean some of the just the milestones which I could read off, which I probably will do at point just for people to hear and the people and the work that you're doing is amazing is just to ask you what led you to set up in the first place? What was your influence to set that up in the first place?

Yeah, thank you. My so my background's in psychology, my undergrad degrees in psychology. For a while I was interested in Law and politics. So I earned my master's of Public policy and my law degree at the same time. But then I realized that the psychology is really what I enjoy doing the most. And so even though I did some civil rights work as an attorney and then also did business law and served as a mediator, I never lost that fundamental focus of psychology. And really, for me, with the way that I approach negotiation and conflict resolution, it's a psychology first perspective. We're going to layer on deeper levels of negotiation strategy. That's where the lawyer in me starts to come in. But I always want to start with the teaching based on understanding your psychology and the psychology of the other person so you can recognize which barriers you need to overcome in order to be successful in these difficult conversations.

Yeah. And there's always a decision people make in terms of they have that interest and passion, they help people on a kind of a one to one basis or whatever. And then just how almost the scale of what you've done has grown with the American Negotiation Institute. And so when. What. What point or what period or what moment made you go, you know what? I need to. I need to do this on a much greater scale because not everyone has that capacity or has that desire to do so. So what made you. What got you to the point where you go, this has to be done on a. On a much broader scale.

Yeah. So here's my philosophy, and this is the guiding principle that we use for the American Negotiation Institute, and it's that the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And when you take the time to kind of look back on your life, the relationships that you have, and the most important things that have happened to you, there's probably a difficult conversation somewhere around that. And then our success or failure in our lives and our careers and our relationship to a large part going to be governed by how we perform in these difficult conversations. So for me, the person, the young Kwame, who wanted to be a therapist, this is his opportunity to do that at a massive scale with the podcast, the TED Talk, the book just growing that platform, because for me, I think this is one of the most important skills people can learn.

Yeah, absolutely. I totally agree. And you mentioned the sort of scale of what you're doing in terms of the different mediums you've got your book, Finding Confidence in Conflict, same title as your TED Talk, which I had the pleasure of watching. And if no one, if people haven't watched it as saying to Kwame off air, just surprisingly entertaining, not in Reference to Kwame, but it's just a topic that you wouldn't think necessarily you'd be entertained by, but it certainly was. And in that TED Talk, we have to, for the people who might not know, the story is you spoke about SerialGate and part of your journey into conflict and dealing and mastering conflict. I'd love you to share what that looks like and actually what the latest is, however many years later since we told that story.

Yeah. And so at the beginning of the TED Talk, I really wanted to make this relatable because I think negotiation and conflict, they struggle with a branding issue. Because we think about it in terms of these really, really high level discussions that don't happen that frequently. But my definition of negotiation is anytime you're in a conversation where somebody in the conversation wants something. So at the beginning, introduce myself as a lawyer and I tell you, and I say I'm going to tell you about this story. And the story is my wife keeps stealing my cinnamon toast crunch and it pisses me off.

Just so I understand, like your passion for cinnamon toast crunch out of ten, what we talking here?

I mean, it's a 72.

Yeah, right, okay.

Yeah, it's very serious. And it still happens, David. That's the thing, it still happens to this day. And now we have a four year old and he loves it.

Oh, he's involved.

Oh, yeah. They think they have a right to this stuff. So you'll know I've made it when I have a cabinet of my own that has a lock that's just full of my goodies.

Yeah. So. And so, you know, your wife was getting, you know, your favorite food in the world. Your wife's having that. So talk us through in terms of actually having to handle that conversation and actually, you know, having to deal with it, you know, any relationship, it's not easy to have what can feel like simple conversations. But what I loved in the TED talk is you also spoke about just the fact that they've almost a very obvious forgotten point, which is we see things from different perspectives. When you mentioned that your wife, she said, is this something that I do? And you spoke about it in those terms. But absolutely, we sort of create, we have an assumption. And it's not just about men and women, of course we think differently, but also just same, same genders is we make assumptions. And one of the things I was really keen to ask you about was obviously a lot of what you do is conflict resolution, is how much can we do in terms of preempting conflict and sort of not avoiding conflict, but actually being prepared for it and sort of making sure that we facilitate a conversation almost before it gets to conflict. Now, I ask that because your definition of negotiation is much broader. Maybe it's not quite the right question, but is there a way, are there things that people can do earlier to make sure that it facilitates rather than at the moment they have the conversation?

Right. Yeah, this is great. And so let's talk about my definition of conflict too. So my definition of conflict is a negotiation with attitude. So it's the exact same thing, but there's an emotional element that makes it particularly difficult. So we need to address the emotional issue first before we get to the substance. And so when it comes to conflict management, I think the issue is that most people use what I call a hope based strategy for conflict where they see a potential issue and then their strategy is, well, I hope this doesn't get any worse. That would be really bad. And so with the way that I navigate my world and the way that I have my relationships with the people who are close to me in business, professional, romantic, whatever it is, I like to consider myself in a consistent position of low level conflict. And most people would say, oh my gosh, that sounds awful. I don't want to be your friend, but here's the thing. What I do is I recognize potential issues and then I proactively have a conversation about it. Oftentimes it's not even an issue. So then we get on the same page, okay, no worries. Just wanted to make sure people appreciate the fact that you cared enough to check in. And then on the other side, then we find out that it is an issue and we say, oh, thank goodness we caught this issue while it was small, while it's in the shape of a seed. But oftentimes we get to the point where it is a full grown tree and it's a problem and it's really, really difficult. So when it comes to those really difficult conversations where people get to the point of yelling and whatnot, that doesn't happen in my life. Even though I'm intentionally creating these opportunities for conflict because I'm being proactive.

I like that idea, proactive. And the other thing is actually people setting just that unrealistic goal of acting as if there's a world where conflict doesn't exist interpersonally or on a broader scale, where if that's the goal of, you know, just zero conflict, again, it's people's. It's up for people to determine what conflict actually means. But in the way that we've defined it or that you've defined it, if you act as if there's a place where there isn't going to be conflicts, that's just a game you can't win. You're just setting up rules to a game that's. That's not. That's not winnable. So I like the idea in terms of being proactive, and a lot of my clients, I try and manage at the level you know, earlier on, rather than pretending something doesn't exist and then it just builds and builds and builds. I always talk to people about a positive and a negative tower doesn't require, in our minds, where it doesn't require any conscious effort to build a negative tower, you know, you lose your car keys, meeting gets cancelled, someone shouts at you, lunch gets moved. This happens. And then one more thing happens and it pushes it over the edge and you've just stacked this massive thing. And as you said, those points of conflict can often come at the end of, you know, someone's built this negative tower of stuff, and then that one more thing, even if it's not a big piece of conflict, can push over the edge. To be able to deal with that much earlier is important. The positive tower obviously requires more conscious effort in order to be able to construct that as well. But that negative tower. So I like the idea. Anything that's to do with being about proactive and addressing something earlier I think is really key. And so we move to the next part, which is actually start it. You know, that position where you do have to have that conversation or that there is going to be a, you know, going into it, there is going to be tension, there is going to be conflicts, and how to manage that. One of the things I love and I would love for you to talk more about is the idea of compassionate curiosity. And I'm sure that's sort of in your book as well. But many people in my podcast would have heard me say, probably bored of hearing me say. I always try and simplify. I think a lot of communication can be simplified to one of two E's, empathy or expectation. And those two things there, which is most people lead with expectation. As soon as I saw your idea in terms of compassionate curiosity, I thought, oh, maybe I'm doing something right here. But I'd love for you, because I think the way you articulate it is a thousand times better than that, obviously. And obviously you have way more experiences just to introduce people to what compassionate curiosity is and then how they can also implement it as well, right.

Oh, this is fantastic. And I'm so glad you brought up expectations and empathy, because you'll see how both of those are built into the philosophy of the framework too. And one quick point, and I know you already know this, but one of the things I always ask in my negotiation and conflict resolution trainings is what is the thing that leads to the breakdown of every single relationship? Personal, business, romantic, anything. It's the violation of expectations. Most people say communication, trust, those type of things. But when you think about it, those are symptoms of the cause, that an expectation has been violated. So one of those invisible type of negotiations we have to have is to figure out what that expectation is and make sure we negotiate that, get on the same page before we start performing or continuing with the relationship. And then if we recognize conflict as an opportunity, we could, we can recognize those potential discrepancies, have those conversations, and then use this compassionate curiosity framework to guide us through the conversation. And so that's where I really think the power of the framework is. It's in its simplicity. Because I know you're a psychology nerd too. You know that when we have these amygdala hijacks, we're not cognitively performing at our best. And so it's important to have a framework that's easy to remember. And so it's a simple three part framework. And the first part is, number one, acknowledge and validate emotions. Two, get curious with compassion. And three, joint problem solving. And it's flexible framework you can use at work and at home. And it's really, really powerful because a lot of times you feel in these conversations like you don't know what to say or when to say it, how to say it. But this gives you an approach. So where you see a certain thing, you know how to, how to handle it. If you see an emotion, you acknowledge the emotion, then there's no emotional issue. Then you can get curious with compassion, asking questions that give you a deeper understanding. So you're building that empathy, understanding how they see, think and feel about the situation, and gathering information in general. Then you can a little bit more persuasive with the questions that you can ask so they can start to come in your direction. And then once you get that information, you've avoided the emotional barriers. Then you can go into joint problem solving where it's essentially a brainstorming session where you're trading proposals, just trying to figure out what works.

Yeah, and your TED talk, you highlighted another particular example of where you very quickly got on the same page with someone. And that's what I'd love, I think people would love to hear as well, is just some stories of this sort of stuff in action. Because when I read through the sorts of types of work that you're doing, you know, even around Covid, the stuff around COVID 19 as well, and insurance, around insurance claims that work with Supreme Court, I mean the volunteer, even from every level, paid volunteering, there's just so much work that you do. I couldn't possibly do it justice in terms of it. I would love to just hear a few stories maybe whether you refer them to them as high level stories or whatever, where high level conflict in which that sort of thing was implemented and, and the results that you see from it. I'll be really interested to hear that. Yeah.

So let's, let's get, let's try and get a diversity of stories here. So let's start with my son, my 4 year old. And so when Kai has a temper tantrum, he might do something that's wrong. And so let's apply the framework to this. And so you'll see how I parent using this exact same framework with a four year old. So I'd say, Kai, it seems like you're really frustrated right now. He's like, yes, I'm frustrated. Can you tell me why you're frustrated? I'm frustrated because I want to stay up and you want me to go to bed. Oh, that makes sense. You want to stay up because it's more fun than going to bed, right? Yeah, it's more fun. And so why do you think we have to go to bed? I have to go to bed so I can get big and strong. Okay. Why else? So I can get smarter. Okay. And so what do you think we should do now? Well, I think we should go to bed. Okay. Do you want to brush your teeth first or do you want to put on your pajamas first? Yeah, I wanted to brush my teeth first. Okay. Kai's parenting himself.

Yeah. And that's part of what I loved about it is because it's the same thing. You know, we know people in sales as well and I help people in sales is if you get someone to sell themselves to you. And that's which is exactly in this sort of more cynical way of what you've just done there. But I can just imagine parents listening all over thinking, oh my God, I wish I need my kids to do that. Yes. They're probably first instinct is thinking you, you know, you must have the best son in the world that it went through that. But I could. But from a psychological point of view, as we are psychology nerds, this psychological point of view, it makes sense because you're getting him to talk through it, rather than us trying to convince. Trying to push. Trying to persuade is you're getting them to reason the logic and the emotion for themselves, which is fantastic. So, yeah, I can. I can understand why that works. So. So what's it. What's. What's another example we could be looking at?

Yeah, so let's look at an example of COVID So let's say there's a business that wants to reopen, but the thing is, the situation isn't where it needs to be in order for them to safely reopen. And so there's a boss who really wants to get everybody back in the office, and you have to talk to the boss to figure out what the safest way to do it is. And so I'm not trying to say one way is better than the other right here. I'm just saying what the approach could potentially look like. And so if you're the person using the compassionate curiosity to try to slow down the approach, something you could say is you could say, david, it sounds like you really want to get back to work. Yeah, I want to get back to work. We're losing money, and we're a lot more efficient at work. Yeah. So it sounds like you really want us to get back to work so we can start doing good work and get our financial situation back in place. Absolutely. I think that's what's most important. Yeah, that makes sense. Finances are going to be critical. So what are some of the barriers that we face when it comes to coming back to work? Well, I think people are really scared when it comes to coming back to work. And I know there's still some issues with the sickness. Okay, good. And what else? Well, I think the lack of concern, the concern that people might feel might make them a little bit more hesitant when it comes to performing at work. They might be distracted because they're concerned about their safety. Okay, so what do you think we could do about the people who are concerned about coming back to work? What other alternatives do we have? Okay, well, maybe we could have it so that a certain amount of people come in, but we still have some people staying at work, at home, if that's what makes them feel more comfortable. Okay. And then you can continue the conversation there. But you're seeing how, at first, you don't even get into the substance. A lot of times what happens is we Try to persuade too soon they're not ready for it. And one of the things I like to say is that it doesn't make sense to send a message to somebody who isn't psychologically ready to receive it right then. If they're in that emotional state, save your points for later, for when they can actually process it. Take the time to acknowledge and label that emotion and do it until you feel like they've calmed down enough to handle the points later. But I like to bring in a little bit of physics to this too. You know, the law of physics where they say every action has an equal and opposite reaction. The same thing holds true in these conversations. If I just try to pound you with statistics and points, oftentimes the counter is to just resist, resist, resist. So this helps us to circumvent that resistance and invite them into the process, and then they're persuading themselves.

I love it. I love it. So there must have been examples for you, Kame, where you're in a conversation, you've got these structures and processes, but they're really one being tested. Is there other points in conflict for you? Not necessarily your examples, but you just think conflict in general. Are there cases for you where you sort of go, the conversation needs to be left now, or something else needs to happen? Because we'd all love it to be a nice, tight, nice red ribbon at the end of it and all neatly tied up. But of course, that's not always the reality. So I guess in terms of options and solutions, where actually we can't always, you know, the unrealistic expectation of putting a nice red bow on it is asking ourselves, what are sensible ways that even if we go through those steps, that actually it can't be. Maybe, maybe it's just that it can't be resolved right now, but maybe it can be in time. A bit later is when we can't put a nice red bow on it at the end. What are the steps that we might do where we might have to make a decision? Do we leave the conversation? Do we do this? Do we do this? Because I'm sure there have been times and occasions where that is the case.

Absolutely. And I'd like to introduce the concept now of a micro negotiation. So we're still going to use the exact same framework, but then sometimes we have to recognize in the middle of the conversation the resistance is too much. They're not ready for it. I need to do a lot more work in order to get them to move. And I consider this persuasive. Weight. So if you think about going into a gym and your job is to move all of the free weights to the other side of the gym, you're not going to pick up all the weights at one time and do it. You're going to break it up into pieces. You're going to do individual trips and go back and forth. Same thing happens in conversations. Sometimes we acknowledge the emotions. Acknowledge the emotions, ask a few questions, recognize that the emotion is still there. And after about 15 minutes, we say, today's not the day. And then what we do is we change our negotiation. Because remember, any conversation where somebody wants something now, our goal has shifted from getting this conversation across the finish line to rescheduling it to make sure we don't do undue damage to the relationship. And so now I want to get them to commit to another day, preferably the next day or two days, and then they might be ready. And as you know, during the REM process in sleep, it's almost like a therapy session, you get to process through those emotions. That's why you might be able to go to sleep really, really, really angry. But most people don't wake up really, really, really angry. Right.

Yeah, that's a good point.

Is because they've gone through this emotional process. So in the framework, we're working through those emotions by acknowledging emotions, labeling it, but then just let biology do a little bit of the work by just giving some time.

Yeah. And one of my favorite phrases or quotes in terms of conversation, persuasion, selling, whatever you might want to refer it to, is I'll just say sell for the context of this quote, which is people don't buy what you understand. They buy when they feel understood. And actually whether it's buy or sell, but actually the, you know, take up, buy and sell, actually what you have to offer your point of view and actually having a conversation is I love what you do because it is all about understanding them and that they feel understood. And when someone feels understood, most of the time that will just sort of goes, whoa, okay, it just comes down. And then from that place, then we can operate, then we can facilitate conversation. But when it's, you know, when a conversation is pure, you know, you have to do both the emotion and the logic. But when it's all emotional, emotional emotion, and that temperature is too high, nothing can operate. I love that. It's just purely out of a sense of understanding. If for nothing else, it feels like it. Just when you talk about it, it feels like the right thing to do. Right. And, you know, Even if it's a framework that works and a structure that works as sort of, you know, it's just as human beings, it feels like the way conversation should be had. That's what I love so much about what you do. And so now I want to kind of. We might as well talk about what's been the bigger picture over the. Over the years. You know, we've just. This year's been crazy. A number of years back, we had MeToo movement as well. We've got. Just with the horrendous killing of George Floyd as well, another movement which will hopefully facilitate change as well. COVID 19 has just been just a nightmare in trying to manage it. Something that seems unique, but actually, I think for a lot of people at the government level, it doesn't always feel like it's being dealt with in the right way. I wanted to talk about, with your background and expertise, some of those things, and maybe start with the Black Lives Matter movement and the stuff around George Floyd. And really, what is the case of that this isn't another moment and that this is a facilitation of change. I'm sure you've been doing a lot of work around this already in terms of helping facilitate conversations. How do we make sure these conversations do create change? How do we make sure that these conversations aren't just heard because other people have been put quotes or air quotes around it? Other people have been heard before, but nothing's actually happened. And so it's great that more and more people are being heard, but actually, how do we create conversations where there isn't some form of tension or resistance to change at a government level or any other level? Are you trying to facilitate conversation? So what's your view on that in terms of how we could be making much better progress if we are? Maybe we are at the moment. I'd be interested to hear what you think.

Yeah, I think this is a unique opportunity that we have. And remember, conflict is an opportunity. That's my philosophy. And right now we have a prime opportunity. And the reason is these problems are not new. These problems have been around since. For as long as we can remember. Right. And the difference now is that because of the media attention it's received, it's at the height of consciousness. So for a lot of people who were not aware, now they are aware. And there's a bit of agitation and emotional discomfort that comes with this new knowledge. I think that's what people call being woke. Right.

Is the phrase now. Yeah.

Right. Yeah. You were asleep. You did not know you were completely unaware and now you are awake. And I tell people all the time, being woke doesn't feel good. Every day I just wish I could go back to sleep. Sometimes it's better to just not know it. It feels better to not know it. But we don't do these things because it's easy or because it's comfortable or because it's fun, but because it's important and it's worth it. And so I think now that it's at the height of human consciousness, it's an opportunity to have these discussions use the exact same framework. But the thing is, we need to focus on commitment because there are a lot of symbolic gestures that have been made, and I think that's really great. But the thing is, when it comes to the attention given to these issues, it's like a bell curve where we. It goes to a point, it starts out at a point where nobody knows about it, then everybody has a heightened level of awareness. Then slowly it goes back down to baseline. And if it goes back down to baseline without true commitment, then we have to wait until the next tragedy to get people's attention again. And so for the people who are trying to be change agents within their family, within their community, within their workplace, I think the challenge then is to get people to commit, while they care, at a very, very high level, commit to something tangible. And that's where the negotiation aspect comes into it, because it's more than just having the discussion. It's getting people to commit to change.

Yeah. And so I guess the logical next question is really asking, you know, talk about being woke and everything else. And I think for a lot of people, just the realize, you know, you hear lots of people talking about the idea of, yeah, you know, I'm not racist, but am I anti racist? Right? Have I. Am I actually being aware? But I think commitment is the perfect word and actually doing something and you know, the sort of symbolic gestures, you know, black squares on social media and things like that, you know, great in terms of awareness, but actually at the end of the day, you know, what is it? What does that create? And I think those sorts of things are good at almost breaking a pattern. But life doesn't change until you take action, right? So it's good to break the pattern. People break people's consciousness in the pattern, shift awareness, but then actually taking action. From your point of view, what, what is commitment and what is. What is a relevant commitment? And I forgot what his name is. The lawyer in America, Conan o'. Brien. I'll think of his name will pop back up into my head in a minute. But really spoke of some sort of commitments that I thought, oh, okay, that might be moving things in the right direction. But he's still at a loss with it slightly in terms of he's still working through these things. Kwame, what do you see as a good, a valid commitment, not just a symbolic gesture. What do you think is a commitment?

So I think what we have to do is analyze what the true problem is. If we get so focused on police brutality, which is a significant issue, we might give ourselves a pass. Well, I'm not in the police. I'm not a politician. I can't do anything other than vote. So I'll give you that once it comes. But I think what we need to do is recognize that the real challenge that we face is structural racism, because the structures that we have inherited consistent, consistently produce inequitable outcomes. So that structures in terms of policy and government and on that level, but also structures within our organization where people who were operating on their best, operating and doing things that they felt were benign and equitable and fair inadvertently created structural problems within their organizations. And so what we need to do is focus on our family, focus on our workplace, and focus on our community. I think those are things, three areas where we can actually have an impact based on the difficult conversations we're willing to have and create commitments there. And here's an example of a structural issue within a company that I've worked for before in the past doing these. These trainings, because now I do a training called how to have difficult conversations about race, blending my background in civil rights with the conflict resolution. So you can amazing type of things. And in talking about implicit bias, overcoming that too. This company, the way that they were structuring the access to the leaders was through golfing events. So when you're trying to network and get your way to the top, you need the blessing of those leaders to pull you up. And so now it's a golfing event. There's nothing evil or racist about golfing, but it does have a disparate outcome as it relates to who is interested in golfing. Women and minorities are less likely to be interested in golfing compared to white males. And so people were not taking advantage of those opportunities because they didn't feel comfortable and accepted and safe within that country club atmosphere. And so we have to be able to invite the voices of the people within our companies who have been inadvertently marginalized and have them share their experience because they're Going to be blind spots within every single organization once we identify those structural issues within our organizations. And then we need to come with firm commitments as to what we're going to do to change. And I think we need to have an entrepreneurial type of mindset when it comes to this, because we always want to wait until we have the perfect solution. There's no such thing as the perfect solution. An entrepreneur has to get come to terms with the fact that a lot of the stuff you're going to put out is a sloppy first draft and then you improve it as things go on.

Yeah, no, that's be very true.

Yeah, yeah. So I think it's really important for us to commit, take action and adjust as necessary. Because a lot of times we just keep on pushing things down into the future. We say, let's assemble another task force, let's do another assessment, let's ask some more people, let's do some more surveys. Okay, we've gotten some information. This is a lot of information. Let's get a consultant in here to go through the information. We don't need any more of that. We need to take action now.

Yeah, I think, you know, a lot of people think it's knowledge that we need. I think we. I think we're done with knowledge. We're sort of starving for wisdom really now. And so I think that's the sort of direction we're going in. And I want to talk specifically on businesses, and I want to make sure that this comes across as in not someone sort of continually, you know, pointing in other directions saying this is where they could be doing more. They could be doing. Because I think, to be honest, you know, there's so many of us that can be doing more and should be doing more. But I do want to touch on the business aspect, because you mentioned it is, I think a lot of businesses, the safe side was to not comment on the issue. The safe side for businesses now is they need to comment. And if they don't, then people go, but you're not talking about this issue. You're not mentioning that there's an issue. You're not looking to find resolutions. That's something I found quite interesting in terms of that needle seems to have moved. Right. And actually. But there will be people that obviously looking at this from a very cynical place where you're only doing it now because that's the best side for your bottom line type of thing. And I think it's harsh to be too cynical about it because we need the businesses to take the Right action. Unfortunately, what their motive is can be questioned, but we need them to move in the right direction. For people who have that kind of mindset in terms of. Well, actually, firstly, to ask you, do you think more and more businesses have moved that needle? And secondly, is there an issue that whether businesses are doing it for the right motive?

Yeah. So this is great. I like this. So first, yes, the needle has moved. It's very. It's palpable. And so you're right, everybody is making these statements because now that's the industry standard. And I think there's a heightened awareness of the fact that you can't stay neutral on a moving train. And so even if you want to try to stay on the sidelines and not have any type of engagement, your lack of action is a problem, because all the status quo needs in order to remain the status quo is nothing. You're giving it exactly what it needs. And so it's good to see that the businesses recognize that it's necessary to do it. Now, when it comes to intent, I have a section in my book Finding Confidence in Conflict called the Alluring Trap of Intent, where in our difficult conversations, a lot of times we try to play the role of thought police and try to figure out what their motive was behind it. And motives are unclear even for the person who did the thing in question. And so I think it's really difficult to avoid getting caught in that. But the benefit is that you avoid conversations that may just be unproductive. If we say, you did this for this reason, the only thing they could say is, no, I didn't. And they have all the information with regard to their motives within their brains. And so we're kind of spiraling in a conversation that doesn't really matter. But what I think the next level of the conversation would be is first just appreciate, hey, you did this. This is really good. Let's. Let's introduce some positive reinforcement for that good behavior. And then we say, what's next? And I think one of my favorite tweets I saw that went viral was somebody who said, I appreciate your support of the. Of the movement and your support for equity. Now, can you please send me a screenshot of the pictures of the people of your board? And so a great way to see it like, okay, great, thank you for what you said. Now let's talk about what you're going to do. And that's really the next level commitment to change objective measures to determine whether or not those things have been met, too, with a timeline. Because my Thing is, if there's no deadline, then we're always, always on time. So, David, you invited me to be on the podcast and I just kept saying, yeah, I'll be on your show. Yeah, I'll be on your show. Absolutely, I'll be on your show. And then that becomes. It doesn't become a lie until I die.

Yes, that's a good point.

So we need to have true commitment with deadlines so then we can recognize whether or not we're making the progress we need.

I like that. And saying you can't be neutral and moving train, that sort of got to me. I don't know why, but yeah, that's a good point. So really to ask the question now, in terms of, in the current climate that we're in, following the, the George Floyd situation, to you, obviously, being in the US as well, does it feel different for you being in the US Than it has done on other occasions? Do you feel that commitments can, will be, not can or will be being made? And do you think that there is going to be a significant progress here or that there will be progress, but maybe not as much as people hoped?

That's tough. And I think time will tell because it does feel different here. It really does feel different here as it relates to the things that people are willing to do, the measures that people are willing to take, especially within companies. That's really great to see. And now whether or not they hold true to those commitments, I think we'll have to wait six months to a year to see what palpably has changed. Changed when we look at the numbers, the statistics, the data to really tell us those things. But I'm encouraged by it. But again, this is great. You love psychology. I do, too. I consider the term moral licensing. And so with moral license thing, what we're talking about is you're giving yourself a pat on the back for something that you did well and it causes you to let up. So if you're on a diet and you did a really, really great exercise in the morning, it makes you more likely to quit on your diet and cheat on your diet because you say, well, I burned so many calories in the morning, I earned this ice cream, right? And so when it comes to equity, it's like, hey, I made my statement. I made this commitment I've earned blowing through this deadline that I set for making this commitment happen, actually following through. And so we have to make sure that, yes, we take the time to appreciate what we've accomplished in the short period of time, but Also, we don't let our foot off the gas because we're dealing with centuries of inequity that we need to really fight back on. It's not going to change in six months. This is a marathon, not a sprint.

Yeah, yeah, I think that's the common phrase that's used, isn't it? Marathon, not a sprint around this particular situation. So let's touch on another one of the issues of 2020 in terms of COVID 19, and you've been, I know you've been doing some work around that in terms of, you know, selected by the Supreme Court to propose creative dispute resolution solutions for the backing of eviction cases. I mean, I don't know what the scale of that is in terms of the eviction cases. Maybe it's just something. It's one of those things that people, on top of all the other things going on, just something people aren't quite aware of. So it'd be great to get a little bit of context around that in terms of what that situation actually looks like and the work you're doing. If it's something that you're able to talk about.

Absolutely. So think about this. And it's going to differ for different people. But just imagine all of the people that you know who rent properties, and for the majority of us, actually, it's probably close to the majority or at least half of the people that we know personally rent the property that they live in. Well, in America, there were eviction protections because people, so many, so many people lost their jobs, they couldn't pay. And so they there, they were going to be evicted. But they created this program to say, hey, no more evictions until July 25th. Well, that's coming up right now. It's probably July 17th, something like that. At this point. I talk about dates in approximations. I don't know what day it is.

When you work from home more often, it just turns to blur into one giant day, doesn't it?

Yeah, it really does. And so the estimate is that 1/5, 1/5 of all American renters are going to be evicted. Geez, one fifth. And so it's going to be a homelessness crisis. Not just that, but even before that, we have to consider what it takes to be to be evicted. It's a legal process. Before this happened, the court system was already overwhelmed. I remember going through law school and they kept on saying the court process is slow, we have too many cases, those type of things. And now there's been a backlog of evictions and foreclosures, the court is going to be completely overwhelmed. And so I was on this task force to come up with creative solutions. And from that, I proposed the idea of creating a volunteer mediation program where they. Where we use law students and train them to mediate these pro. These cases for us. And they'll do it under the guidance of experienced mediators who are going to get pro bono, continuing legal education credit to do it. And so we're still in talks, still doing the negotiation for that, still waiting to hear back on whether or not they want to do that. But I think that would be the, for sure, the biggest project the American Negotiation Institute has ever handled. We need to bring in a director for the program. So it'd be really, really exciting. Exciting, but I think it's necessary. And it's something that can be done remotely. It's something that can be done using social distancing over the phone and using Zoom. But most importantly, it helps to alleviate that burden that the court is going to have. Because a lot of times we know the direction these cases are going to go. We know that we don't need to get it in front of a judge. Now, the benefit of having a mediation is that both parties now have a lot more autonomy and control over the creation of the agreement. And so if it's judge, the judge says, evicted, this date gone. But if it's a mediation, we could say, all right, I know I need to vacate the property. I have XYZ concerns. If you can give me 45 more days in this property, I will pay you back over this much time. Are you able to do that? No. What about 37 days? Right? Something like that. And you can actually negotiate and come up with a created agreement that serves you better. And so this mediation program could do a lot of good. And so I'm hoping to be able to get this contract with the Supreme Court to do that and then hopefully replicate it in different parts of the country.

I mean, that just. I mean, that is just sort of incredible. And just can't even. Just the scale of that as well, just how many lives that impacts sort of probably leads me into the next part of this conversation, which is, what does doing this work do for you? And I don't mean that in a selfish way. I mean just the feeling that you get, because I know the feeling I get from the work that I do. But for you, and no doubt you would have had the first experience in providing that sort of added value for someone, and like most people caught that bug and Sort of thought, wow, this is. This is just something that lights me up. This is a feeling unlike any anything else. So how do you describe that feeling you get when you can make a difference in such a way?

I get chills just thinking about it. Not. Not even in a figurative sense. Like, literally get chills. Because for me, I mean, that's better than money. That's better than any type of monetary reward. And my wife will be like, don't say that publicly. Take the money. But whenever I get a message from a listener who said, oh, you're punished. Helped me in this way. My, yes, my business has improved, but also my relationship with my spouse is better. I'm reconnecting with my kids in new ways. I screenshot every single message like that. I get every single review, everything. And. Because that's what it's all about. Because like I said at the beginning, the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And with the work that I do, with all the free content that I give out with the podcast and TED Talk and all that stuff, I recognize that I'm helping to change lives, helping people to live their best life. They didn't even recognize these were barriers that they didn't recognize there was another way. And so for me, I look at negotiation and conflict resolution not as skills, but as a life philosophy. And when you start to filter all of these interactions through this framework, then everything becomes a lot clearer. And the more people who are able to have these conversations at this level, the more problems we're going to be able to solve collectively. And so that's really the motivation. I think the work that we do here at the American Negotiation Institute genuinely makes the world a better place.

Yeah, absolutely. Well, I get chills hearing you talk about it. To be honest. I'm not surprised. I'm not surprised you're getting them yourself. And so when you set out on this sort of journey, you'll have had an idea in your head, presumably in terms of the type of footprint that you wanted to leave. And I don't want. I don't mean that in such a way as, oh, success only looks like if I do this, or whatever, but you've no doubt, like most of us do, in terms of that footprint, that would be something that would be a value, that footprint, that, this is what I want to do, this is what I want to give. What did that footprint look like when you started out? You may well have realized that you far exceeded that initial vision, but what's the sort of footprint you're looking to leave now?

Yeah. And so I'll start off with this. This is a, this is a Kwame saying, I'm very proud of it. So the difference between crazy and genius is success. And that was crazy for a long time. David. I saw this vision very clearly, but I don't think anybody else really like appreciated it. And now it's starting to happen. And for somebody who, like me, who's very competitive, very driven, you always feel like you're behind. But every once in a while, it's nice to take a second and look back and appreciate what you've been able to accomplish. For me, with the American Negotiation institute, it's only four years old, I'm 31. And so just based on this trajectory, I feel like we're going in the right direction because I think it's not just going to be a US based type of thing there. It's, it has global reach. I mean, this is a podcast in the uk, right? And it's really, really exciting because I think there aren't, I don't think there are very many people who approach this topic in this type of way. I want to make it palatable, I want to make it approachable and fun even. And I think just that change of mindset helps people to recognize I'm negotiating every single day. Perhaps this might be the most important skill for me to learn because even if you're an engineer, right, you're doing, you're dealing with numbers, you're dealing with statistics, you're dealing with the science of it. But if you're unable to persuade your team that the way that you're seeing things are the right way, then the science doesn't even matter because it doesn't, isn't brought to market it because you're not persuading people that your way is the way that we should go. And so it's one of the most important skills that we need as professionals, as and as humans because it creates connection and allows you to communicate and change people's hearts and minds.

Yeah, I like what you said in terms of making it an approachable subject because you're right. One, it's, it's almost feels like a taboo thing. Two, it feels conflict resolution always, I think to most people feels like a very high level problem when the reality is it is a day to day thing and actually being able to have a conversation where actually, you know, listen to some of your podcasts as well, but just almost sharing that empathy with everyone in terms, oh, I can understand that. And actually everyone getting on the same page and going, yeah, you know what, this is a day to day thing, actually, we need to do something consciously about it. And so one of the gifts and the curses I think of being someone with a deep desire to contribute and contribute more than. That's what's the right way of saying it. Contribute more than is necessarily asked or required of you is that there's always that sense of I could do more or that when we take a step away for a moment, that is, or not saying this of you, other people who I've spoken with who feel that actually I can't step away because there are people that need help. There are people that need help. You've got a family who no doubt you would obviously adore and you've also got this huge desire and like many people, is that balance between those things. I just wanted to ask for you, how easy is that balance? And if it is easy to some extent, or you know, maybe not easy, but you've managed to manage it, Is it for people listening to understand how you can help on such a broad scale but also still make sure that you provide that time and value for the people that you care about the most as well?

Yeah. I think it comes down to first again, not surprisingly, the psychology background. I recognize self care is important. I need to take, I need to listen to my body, listen to my mind. If I start to feel burnt out, I need to pull back. That's a big thing. You have to, you have to recognize that so you can still perform at a high level. And then when I think when it comes to performing at a high level and making sure that you're continuing to grow and grow and grow. One of the things that you need to be able to do is hold two competing ideas in your mind at the same time. And so you have to feel very, very hungry and satisfied at the same time. And so I am always content. I'm happy. That's the key to happiness. You want to find happiness in the simple moments. Wherever you happen to be, you can find it. If you change your mindset, that's one thing. But at the same time I'm never satisfied with what I've accomplished. I want to do more. I'm competing and I gamify it. It's fun for me at this point. I remember when I was in law school, it was a lot of pressure, negative pressure that made me feel really bad if I wasn't accomplishing at a certain level. But now I think about it in this way I'm either winning or I'm growing. And so that's it. If I accomplish my goal, great. That's fantastic. What's the next one if I don't accomplish my goal? Okay, what can I learn from this? How do I get better? And one of my favorite quotes as it relates to competition is that I think it's from Kobe Bryant, who says, I don't hope that the game gets easier. I hope that I get better.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a great quote. And another obviously, tragedy of this year as well. But, yeah, I think that's a perfect quote to sum up exactly that thought. And he was, you know, you hear a lot of people talk about it, he seemed to be a great example of that balance as well. And post retirement, it seemed to find being content. But you hear he still had that desire and the hunger as well. And so, yeah, I'm not surprised you've quoted him. So I want to talk before we kind of think about wrapping up this conversation. And I'd love to. I've got 50 other questions I could be asking you right now. I've written down here. So I'd love to have you on again at another point, but to really to talk about a bit more about your book as well, finding confidence in conflict as well as the courses that you've got going on. Because it's probably similar to you, if you, when you have people in your podcast is when you can speak to someone who's got 10, 20, 30 years of experience in a particular area and can simplify it. I mean, that's, that's, that's the real genius of anything, isn't it? You know, exactly like your frameworks that you've mentioned is make it really simple for people. And complexity is the enemy to action and understanding. And all of that is that also when you speak to someone, you know, when someone's written a book and they can summarize what has been, you know, the majority of their life so far and simplify those things. When you wrote your wrote this book, Conflict in conflict. Why now? Why now? Did you think about writing it and what was the main thing you wanted to get across to someone?

Yeah, I think the main message is conflict is an opportunity. That's really it. And as humans, as animals in general, we always are evaluating situations, asking ourselves, should I approach or avoid? And a lot of times we have that avoid orientation because we see conflict as a threat. But if you see it as an opportunity, you're going to be proactive and you're going to move toward it. And so that's the biggest thing. I really want people to become more comfortable but confident in conflict. And when it comes to the confidence portion, if people read my book and they're actually a little bit surprised for somebody because they see me as a negotiation guy of lawyer and mediator and all that stuff, so they're expecting hard tactics. But again, psychology nerd, that's my base. So about 60% of the book, 60 to 70% of the book is just all about psychology and mindset. Because. And I've been guilty of this too. I think in the negotiation field, we're giving recipes to people who are afraid to get in the kitchen. It doesn't matter if I tell you a bunch of stuff that works that you could do if you're too afraid to do it. And so the first portion of that book is just building up your confidence level so you can overcome those psychological and emotional barriers and then have those difficult conversations. And then that's when I drill home how to use the compassionate curiosity framework and go deeper into how you can use that in different spheres.

Absolutely. Yeah. And so the confidence element and the confidence aspect of that, because I always treat that, you know, there's obviously self belief and it's confidence. So I have, you know, if I've ever worked with high performing athletes, I've had high performing athletes who sort of two parts to it where I always say, people say you are what you eat. I always say you are what you consume, you know, what you watch, what you listen to. All of that stuff, you are all of that stuff. I had to remember Olympic athlete once who she was struggling and she said I can't perform in this moment. And obviously people listening can't see what I'm doing. But sort of a high level moment above what is the day to day and struggling to perform in those moments. And when I listened to her that she actually seemed to have that down in terms of. That's the sort of thing I would suggest to someone in terms of you do this, you do this, you do this. I said to her just out of interest, day to day, she'd been talking that she'd been quite teary eyed a lot of the time. And I. And she just said, it's really unusual for me, but just feeling very teary all the time. Just said out of interest, what music do you listen to? She goes, oh, I love Adele. I listen to her every single day, all of the time. Now if you listen to Adele every day, as great as she is you're probably going to feel quite emotional a lot of the time. And so there is the aspect of that kind of that just day to day maintenance in terms of our base level of self belief. And so you have that confidence to perform in a moment, but also for this person, it's not that she needs to improve this, she needs to raise a baseline because the jump from her baseline to that high level moment was too big a jump, she had to shorten that jump. So it was just a small jump each day. And so I say all of that because there are very few people, I'm not just saying this because you're on here that genuinely look content. When I say content, I mean lots of people who are content. But you are undeniably content. And I can see that, I can tell that. And so, and that's amazing. And that part of that is that it's self belief and part of that is finding that you know. Exactly. We said that. Gratitude in the smallest thing. The more grateful you can be for the smallest thing, the more grateful you'll be for everything else. I want to ask you because confidence, finding, confidence in conflict. The confidence aspect of course is really important that day to day confidence, feeling content. There's two slightly different things. What is your secret to maintaining that? And you've mentioned a few things which I'm sure alludes to that. Absolutely. But you talk about self care. Is that something you have scheduled in your calendar? Like this is a block for self care or whatever? What is your, what is your method to all of this?

Yeah, it is something you have to schedule because I recognize that as I got busier and busier and busier, I wasn't taking time for myself. And so it's really funny. I remember when Kai was born and I was still trying to build the business and everything, I really forgot what I thought was fun. Forgot fun things. I actually wrote out a list of what I thought was fun and then said, okay, you need to do some of these things, schedule those things in. And so for me, working out is a big part of it. So I would try to work out five days a week. But at the same time I recognize I was not doing a good job of sleeping effectively. So book reference. Why we Sleep. Matt Walker. Fantastic book.

Yes.

It is equal parts informative and terrifying just recognizing how important it is and how poorly most professionals do at it. So I say, all right, if I don't get at least seven hours, then I can't go to the gym. So I need to earn it. By getting sleep.

Okay.

Recognizing just how sleep deprived I was. It's an, it's, it's incredible. And so scheduling. Hey, alright, 5:30am I'm going to be at the gym. Before I go to the gym, I'm going to spend five to 10 minutes just doing my meditation. That's, that's there, that's protected time. And then take Kai to school every morning so we have, have family time there. And then during the day again, scheduling things is really important even outside of things like this. This was scheduled on the calendar, but even things with my employees. What are we going to do during this block? What are we going to do during that block? Because a lot of times if it doesn't get scheduled, if it doesn't get calendared, it's not going to happen. And so protecting those things that are not necessarily concrete with a concrete calendar event helps to make sure that you're doing the important things. And it's not just the business side. You have to do it for yourself as well.

Yeah, I totally agree. And I think I have to do it for myself as well and for the people sort of. The initial resistance is, oh, you know, scheduling like it's structured, just adding too much stuff into my diary. Once you schedule it, you don't have to think about it anymore. So that's one less thing in your head to actually have to consider or remember or process or anything else. I just think scheduling things is brilliant. And there was something, I was just thinking of a quote saying in terms of sleep, I was listening to something LeBron James said recently because he's massive on sleep. And he said, imagine if you had a drink you could take, which revitalized all your major organs, repaired your brain, improved your mood, gave you increased energy and resilience. Imagine that it made you feel happy. And imagine that it gave you an opportunity to perform at the highest level all of the time. And it does exist. And it's called sleep.

Wow.

And I thought that was so brilliant. And I've heard him talk about sleep a lot. But when he, as soon as he started the analogy, I thought, oh, I know exactly where this is going. As I'm sure most people listening, you know exactly where it's going and it's absolutely right. Sleep has been a game changer for me. Similar to you is it does exist, it's just a thing there. But I'm at the point now where my sleep is scheduled, right. It's in my calendar. There's like a half an hour before I go to sleep. In terms of preparation and then there's a scheduled part of sleep where it just seems so ridiculous. But when you get those sorts of little reminders, it just structures it better. And that's, you know, not everyone has to now schedule their sleep. But I think it is a sensible thing. And I love that you mentioned about self care amongst all of this because I always say to people on a plane who, you know, when the oxygen masks come down, they tell you to put on yours first before helping everyone else. And most people feel like I want to know, I want to do more for other people. Well, if you run out of energy or you don't have enough energy, you're doing less anyway. So you're doing everyone a disservice. So you have to take care of yourself in that way. I love so much of what you've said. One of the things I wouldn't, I want people to know where they can get your book. But we were talking about some of your programs and courses beforehand and I think that would be definitely something. I think the people ready to take the next step that we should, we should certainly let people know where they can do those courses as well. So touching on the book Kwame, where if people are interested in that, in finding confidence in conflicts, where can they find that?

Yeah. So the book is available on Amazon and soon it'll be distributed to Barnes and Noble than other places. But you will, will for sure be able to get it on Amazon in Kindle and print version audio book TBD when it comes to the date with regard to the programs. So I create customized programs for companies. So negotiation, conflict resolution, those are the big obvious ones again now doing a little bit more of the diversity and inclusion type of things as well. Just that's my background and I think it's really important to blend that with how to have the conversations after you learn the information. So how to have difficult conversations about race and equity, whatever it is within your company. And then implicit bias, understanding the psychology there too. And then for people who are interested in coaching, I do that one on one coaching for people who are struggling with deals or things like that. And then an online course. So finding confidence in conflict or actually it's negotiate anything. How to find confidence in conflict. You see the consistent branding here, Dave?

Yeah, I could see, I can see it's almost all about that. Yeah.

Yeah. So that's the name of the online course too. And I really love the online course because with the, with the courses that I do like, the trainings that I do I'm limited most days to eight hours. Right. To do the course. And then I always, every time I present, I say to myself, I just wish I had more time to give them more. Give them more. Well, with the course, I was on my time.

Yeah.

To give whatever I wanted.

Yeah. No, I think that works amazing for anyone listening. I'll be able to in this self Belief Chief podcast Facebook group. If you subscribe to that, then we can share links to those things in those places in those groups as well. So it's. Make sure for the listeners, it's also easy to find those things. Kwame, this has been really fantastic, insightful conversation. Your energy is infectious, and so I really appreciate your time and certainly we'd love to have you back again in the future. But the very, very final thing I want to ask you is gonna be a difficult question because I don't even know where to begin. But this year has just been a fairly average year, I think. And when I say average, I mean that in the nicest way possible. What are you hoping for by the end. End of the year in terms of. For yourself, your family, wider? Where are you hoping that maybe we can get to. To the end of the year? Maybe based on some of the goals that you have as well?

I would say my two goals are more and better. And so the. The way that I've structured my. My goals and the things with the company and whatnot is I realized that the more rigid I am with where I want to go, the more opportunities I miss. And so with the business, I just say, simply put, the goals are reach and revenue. And I think about it in terms of one month at a time, and you have to be able to be nimble and make those adjustments, because if your guiding principle is the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations, those conversations are everywhere.

You can find them. There's opportunities there. Everywhere.

Yeah, exactly. So just want to build the audience, get. Get more people on board, learning for. From what we do with the podcast and everything like that. I want to help to. To make the world a better place, just whatever that means in the given moment. And as long as we just keep on moving in that upward trajectory on those two levels, I'm happy. But I don't want to get too specific because I might give myself tunnel vision which might hurt the cause.

Well, I wish you all the best for this, for what has been a strange year. But again, thank you so much, Kwame, and I wish you all the best.

Hey, David. My pleasure.