Fitness Breakthroughs At Home With Odhealth Co-Founder Tom Sheppy | EP 85 | David Hulman

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Hello, welcome to the Self Belief Chief podcast. You're here with life coach and author David Holman. And this week I invited co founder of Odd Health, Tom Sheppey to talk about how you can be connecting with personal trainers even from the comfort of your own home. I know for many of you right now you want to get into exercise. It's not easy for you to, you know, in the past have gone to gyms or know where to start, but actually have a place and a safe space in which you can connect to experts who can take you through a step by step process and a step by step plan. People can help you in fitness and nutrition and many other things to get you to the place where you want to get to. And Tom provides a very holistic approach to your health and wellbeing. And so I think it's totally relevant at the moment how you can up your fitness, how you can up your sort of exercise level so you can improve your wellbeing and what is a challenging time at the moment. So if you really want to, as I said, improve your well being, if you're really looking to keep up your fitness goals or you are new to the fitness world and you're really just looking for a way and an opportunity to start a new chapter in your life, then this will be a great episode for you.

Right. Hello Tom, how are you enjoying your quarantine life at the moment? Tell us what that looks like on a day to day schedule.

I'll be honest, I'm in a lucky position. Normally I would be working on my own for a big chunk of the week. So actually for me, quarantine's working out quite well. I've got a little bit more company than I normally would and we're also very lucky in London to have a bit of outside space. So I can't complain in the scheme of things. Thank you.

Sure. We've all got our small little complaints and I know also living with my sister must be Incredibly difficult as well. So I hope that she's come to its pitfalls. Yes, absolutely. I know how difficult she could be, so. But no, but it's good, it's good to be. It's good to have you on the podcast and really to talk about as the co founder of Odd Health, really a bit more about an app, which I really like the idea of, but particularly in the current climate, actually finding it really, really interesting as a way for people to do two things, connect, which is something people are desperate for, but to actually keep up their health and fitness from their own space. But I think for the people listening, it'd be great just for them to know a little bit more about you and actually understand, you know, how you started in all of this. So just for the people listening to us, a bit more about yourself.

Yeah, of course. So I've sort of always been, I think maybe a lot of us can relate to this. I've always been one of those people who's had fairly grand dreams for their health and fitness and never really none of those have materialized for me. But I'd always been very frustrated with the health and fitness industry. I thought there's just so much bad information out there, it's almost impossible to find any good information because of the noise out there. And so I've been, I've been sort of stewing on that for a while anyway. And then a couple of years ago I injured my back, which was a reasonably kind of big life event for me. That's taken, you know, till now. I still, still struggle with it. But it was that experience in particular for me that set me on the path to starting Odd Health. I couldn't believe it was going to cost me the amount of money it did to see the people that, that were any good at their job at helping me get active again. And we're not just talking here about kind of like spinal consultants and things like that. I'm talking about seeing a half decent physio or fitness coach who was going to help me get active again. And it was just crazy. I was traveling miles and spending a fortune on it. So I thought, well, surely there's got to be something better out there. Started on that route of looking into it when I realized there wasn't. That's when we decided to start the business and find a solution for people that did make it more affordable, more accessible and easier to speak to someone that knows what they're talking about.

Yeah. And I think for anyone who is trying to start their own thing and we all know like how important it is that your own story connects to it. Because if you have an idea or something along, you know, something entrepreneurial, which can be a great idea, but something you're not actually, it doesn't connect to you. You're not necessarily passionate about it and you haven't recognized maybe for yourself, it's its own importance to people, then it's difficult to sort of continue with it through the difficult times that we all go through with, with starting business and moving forward with it. So over the, over the period that you've been working on odd health and being able to sort of build a sort of a base of personal trainers and a base of clients, you know, how long has that taken you to sort of get to a point where actually you're thinking, yeah, this is something that people are ready to use as people ready to see. How long did it take you to get to a point where you thought, actually I'm, you know, this is something I can do rather than it just being an idea.

It's a process and I think it's a process I can. From my experience, for me and the kind of other startup founders I work with who are at various stages, I would say it takes longer than you'd think it does. It's very easy to start very starry eyed and innocent and thinking you're going to take over the world and it will be by the end of the month. I would say it takes longer. It took us from kind of concept to even just like founding a business, officially founding it, going through the legal work and applying for things like SEIs and EIS, which are tax related things that suddenly is something you've never done before. So I think from having the idea to being a position we're in now, which is users and coaches using the platform that's been about two years in, in the making.

And I mean throughout that time, I mean we've had conversations in the past about all the, all the joy and inverted commas of, of, you know, having something you're passionate about and trying to create it and you know, spending 90% of your time doing all the things that you couldn't have even imagined were things he had to be prepared and ready for. It takes a lot for people to like push through all of those particular barriers and those, all kind of those hurdles. So for other people who might be on their journey or their process earlier on with what they're doing and they're maybe hitting those initial hurdles and already wondering, I'm not sure about this, you know, what have you done to sort of keep yourself inspired, keep yourself motivated by it? And what do you think holds you up when things get a little bit difficult that make you think, actually, I'm going to be able to push through this barrier in this one?

I think there's a lot of things. It's a tricky one. The first thing I'd say, and I kind of would really emphasize this to me a couple of years ago, is even if you think you're passionate about it, are you genuinely passionate about it? Because you might be really passionate about it for a month, six months, but are you passionate enough about it that when things go repeatedly wrong, which they will over the course of many months and years, do you still look forward to doing what you do? So I would say if you think you're passionate about it, check that you are passionate about it. Okay. And it's not super inspiring advice, but the other thing I'd say as well is everything feels like the end of the world. I'm still now very much trying to kind of get my get to grips with this and be better at this. But every time you think you've cracked it, you haven't. And every time you think it's all over, it isn't. It's somewhere in the middle. And, you know, absolutely enjoy the good moments, but put them in context. And same for the bad moments. What feels like a total disaster a year down the line, you will not be able to that be routine daily 9am you'll have already done that. So I think probably just keep an eye on if you do love what you're doing, keep an eye on why you're doing it. I think it's crazy to find yourself two years down the line forcing yourself to do something that you now hate, but you're struggling through it. So try and enjoy it. That's presumably part of the reason you started it.

I think that's a really good point on that. I think a lot of people, they fall in love with the idea of owning something, or they fall in love with the idea of the freedom, or they fall in love with, you know, thinking that it's financially, you know, in a better position. Whereas the reality of it is that when you're taking full responsibility of someone, I always use the example of a chef who loves cooking. And they love cooking so much that their next idea is actually, why don't I own a restaurant? And then they go and try and own a restaurant and they realize that being a chef or the cooking was 1% of what owning a restaurant is. And you have to make a decision at that point, well, what is your actual passion amongst it? Is it cooking or is it, you know, is it owning? Something like that. And it's fine if it's, you know, you try something and you realize actually within all of that, it's this particular part that I'm passionate about. I'm sure in different ways both of us have found things where we had a, maybe a much broader picture of what we thought it was going to look like. And over time, you realize actually if I go down this specific road, this is the one that feels more right or this is the one that works for me. And so I think that's really important, what you said about kind of checking your passion and actually, are you passionate about it? Because the reality is it's not necessarily more freedom, it's not more money, it's not, you know, necessarily you don't feel like it's super cool that I, that I own something. Because when you have freedom comes actually, well, what do you have to do with the time to make it all work? So you're right. When you have to deal with all of that as well, then you've really got to love what you do as well. And I think, I think that's, I think that's incredibly important. And so how often, how often have you been tested on how much and on how passionate passionate you are?

Hard to put a number on it. Often enough, more often than I've had good reason to be optimistic. I don't know, I think it's the bigger moments that stay with you. I've had probably a few moments where you think it's over, it's done. And actually what for me was super helpful actually was I've got a good network around me. I'd recommend that to anyone, even if you're starting business wise, as I was from a fairly low base, network wise, do everything you can to meet people. Because I started speaking to somebody who was a experienced businessman, non exec chairman on several boards, senior within a public entity, and I told him about this thing, which to me felt like the end of the world. And he said, we can deal with this in the next 15 minutes. And that didn't start being a big deal to me. And the fallout emotionally was much longer than that. But get somebody who can help put it in context, because particularly early stage startup life, the reality is you'll be working on your own or with a small group of people a lot. You need to get out of your own head, you need to talk to other people and you need to step away from it to kind of gain a bit of context on things.

Yeah, I mean, I think of all the things when I sort of left my corporate job, of all the things that I thought I prepared for, I think the one thing I prepared for the least or just wasn't aware would be such a factor as exactly what you just said, which is actually the idea that you, you know, yes, you get to own your own thing, and yes, you sort of get the good and bad moments that come with that. But actually, if you don't have people around you and as you might do in any other job per se, or a particular nine to five, you actually. The feeling around that or the feeling that of times where you can feel isolated, I just hadn't prepared for well enough. And that's something I had to get much, much better at. As you said, if you don't do that work, or whether it's networking or whether it's just whether it's networking, bouncing ideas of someone or just people there for you to kind of even sound off to, I think is incredibly important, because as you said, if it's all in your own head, you know, if you have something where all the ideas, all the concepts, but even the emotions that are connected to all that, if that's all in your head all the time, eventually you'll just become your own kind of obstacle, practically be able to move forward. And as I said just then, exactly what you were saying, which is that something that was a big deal and it was helpful that someone else could tell you it wasn't a big deal, you know, the only thing that ever really complicates things is us as human beings. And so actually being able to get all of that stuff out of your own head is incredibly important, whoever that might be, whether it's family, friends, or otherwise someone to allow you to do that. And I think that's a huge percentage in terms of, I think, people's success as well. I think the success is actually if you are feeling isolated. One of the things that will make you step away from what you do is if you go, I'm so isolated. Why would I be doing this all on my own? I want to be around other people. And that's the reason why I see people give up on what they do as well. So I think I think that's incredibly important. And so what I really love about your app is the idea that especially in the current climate, you know, one of my ambitions, I think in the future is to have like a personal trainer who I have like consistently for a long period of time, someone that I actually really got on with, someone I really connected with, but who could really keep me on top of things health wise. What I like about your app is that whilst people can, you know, get very specific training which fits into their schedule and they're in the, into their life the way they need it to, you actually have someone to connect with. And as amongst everything going on at the moment, when people are desperate for connection, actually the bond that someone has with their trainer is incredibly important as well to their well being. As we were just saying, having a network of people in your life to support you with what you might be doing, even your personal trainer can sort of be that to a certain degree as well as a point of contact, as a point of communication. So, you know, from what you've seen in terms of all your research, what made you think actually yes, this app is something I need. Was it from the point of view that, you know, you wanted? It was the number one thing. The cost was the number one thing actually. The connection was the number one thing that actually people want someone that they can trust and maybe, you know, if they, if they're only totally reliant on whoever works at their local gym, then, then it's that personal, no one else. So your app gives people the opportunity to. So what was like the number one thing from your research where you thought actually if we can deliver that, that is really kind of cutting edge and that's something that people are really desperately asking for.

Well, there's also all of the things that you mentioned, I think, as you know, are things that we have deliberately taken into account. The number one thing I'd say though is the human touch. It's the bit that you started with where you can't you wish, and this was something I'd always wished that I could afford to speak to somebody who knew what they were talking about on an ongoing basis. Now you don't have to, but I value a close relationship with somebody that you grow to trust who would be there to support me and help me in an ongoing basis. Now all the things you said about affordability, accessibility and things feed into that because that what means I can do it on an ongoing basis. I can't personally and, or never could and most people I know can't afford a personal trainer face to face on an ongoing basis.

Yeah, for like a year or whatever. Yeah.

And then that's the truth. That people don't necessarily want to engage with with health and fitness is it's a long term journey. Yeah, Anybody that's going to sell you a four week ab pack is taking your money. Yeah, there's no benefit to that. So how do I find someone who can actually help me find what works for me and how do I afford it over a long enough term where I'm going to see some results? So that was part of the challenge we took on. And the other part of the challenge as well is that there's a certain aspect of a face to face personal trainer experience that some people don't like. And I think it can be an intimidating environment for a lot of people. Even setting foot in a gym, intimidating environment for people. So what we wanted to do was cater to people who, as I'm saying, wanted to be able to speak to on an ongoing basis but also weren't being catered to at the moment. So by putting it in a video call, you make it a safe space where people can do it from the comfort of own home. They can ask questions without fear of judgment. And you're also able to make it more affordable because. And this is a slightly separate conversation now with COVID 19 but even prior to that, coaches had on average three hours of spare time a day in their schedules that they wanted to monetize but couldn't. So by able to help them be able to do more remote coaching from anywhere at any time, making that flexible for them, they're able to make more money. But you're also able to offer the service more affordably because you take away all the travel time and you make it easier for everyone. So it was that kind of combination of win, win to then deliver that human touch which is the thing that is key to what we do.

Yeah, I mean any. Very much the same as what I do as well. And anyone I speak to for the first time before I even work with them is actually getting them to agree and accept that there is no quick fix and quick fixes don't exist. And you know, I get people that I ask people the question, you know, with whatever problem they're facing, have they spoken to a coach, have they spoken to maybe a counselor or a therapist or whatever at some point? And they might go, yeah, you know, I spoke to someone once or twice and I asked them, okay, well with what you're experiencing, did you think the problem would be solved in a week or two? And they often go, well, no, I go well then you know, what, what, what's the what's the thinking and why would, you know, why would you spend the money over that period of time? Now, all of those different areas, they're all fantastic and they all serve their own use. But at the same time, no one wants, you know, whilst we all want to find something that gets us the results as quickly as possible, no one wants to feel like they're getting a quick fix when it comes down to it. Because if they think about it logically, emotionally, yes, we want to save them money, we want to save money emotionally, we want results as quickly as possible. But logically we know, actually if someone's going to tell me exactly what you said, like a four week whatever, then maybe I'm actually not going to get the results I want. And I think what I like about what you do and the way you talk about it in terms of the long term is it feels a lot more genuine and a lot more authentic to people when they understand and go, okay, I'm not trying to be sold something here, I'm not trying to be sold, you know, a quick turnaround. But actually there's something being created here which actually cares for what, you know, cares about the results that I want, but cares that actually I'm going to get the level of connection that I want as well and over a long period of time. And I think, as you said, trust in all of that is incredibly important. And so when you talk about kind of, kind of the long term goals that people have, I mean, who is your app for? Because there are lots of different people, you know, who've got different fitness aspirations, fitness goals. So who does your app, you know, what does it tailor to what types of different forms of health and fitness, target audience, you know, types of exercise, who does it, who is your app for?

So our app is for people who are being let down by the current health and fitness market. And I think it's a fairly recognisable type. You've tried for years to get into better shape. You've probably kept an eye on something relatively basic like calories. It's often left you feeling self conscious, feeling bad about yourself when really you shouldn't be at all. You're in a huge bucket of people who are all feeling exactly the same. We tend to now we cater for all types of experience, but in particular I think that it's a really valuable experience for beginners because it is about taking that first step in a safe environment. But we offer, we work to a goal basis. We offer seven different goals, be that whether you're looking for weight loss, whether you're training for an event that could be something like a half marathon, injury prevention and management, strength and conditioning. We cater to all sorts of goals. But the heartland of our business, no matter how great we make the tech, no matter how sexy the marketing is, is ultimately the professional you speak to at the end of the day. So the I think in themselves, as long as you're working with the right accrediting bodies, personal trainers are an incredibly exciting and well qualified group of people. I don't know many professions I've ever spoken to where nearly 100% of people are passionate about what they do. It just doesn't happen. Personal trainers are. And they pursue that interest in a. Most of them are freelance and they pay for their own accreditation and it's an ongoing level of training. But what we have is a very long and strict recruitment process where we work with people who offer something above and beyond. So if for instance, you know, some of our coaches specialize in pre and postnatal exercise, some of them are qualified nutritionists, some of them have qualifications in cognitive behavioural therapy, mental health professionals. So we look for people with a really diverse range of backgrounds because we cater to a diverse audience and the purpose of our app is for you to be able to find someone who works for you. And also we operate a pay as you go business model because we don't want to trap people in to paying dozens of pounds a month that they then don't get the benefit of. You only pay for what you want so that people who have got, you know, perhaps a more beginner, it's less of a barrier for them to get involved and to try the sessions before they start committing to longer term work with us.

Yeah, okay, that's good. And yeah, I think, I think it's especially for beginners, you know, it's so hard for people to even know what they want and actually what will, what form of exercise or what, you know, how do I even get started? So I think it's really important that people have the options and the variety from that point of view.

Yeah, it's a marketing challenge for us actually. Because what I love is when you speak to people after a session unanimously, they're all massively motivated and inspired. Everybody suddenly feels like, you know, I can actually do this. You know, you've got a vision and you can see what direction you're going in. It's getting people to realize that they will feel like that afterwards is a marketing piece for us. But I love Getting that feedback from people afterwards when they genuinely feel that kind of excitement about what might happen. And actually it's a point you were talking about earlier, which I think is really valuable. We can all, probably anyone who's tried to get in shape can recognize that morning or that hour where you thought, oh, God, I just really feel like, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna be up, I'm up for this. You plan it all out, but because it takes a long time to make any meaningful change, you could be working out hard and eating what you think is a good diet for three months and not really see the results you're hoping. And then you fall apart because you don't, you don't have the confidence that that off the shelf plan that you found off Google is working anymore. Whereas the benefit of working with someone long term is that they're an expert who knows exactly your background and what you're trying to achieve is helping you to tailor a program and advice to you and is there to make changes to support you and to motivate you and keep you on track, which I think is a massive thing that people underestimate when they start a health and fitness journey.

Yeah, no, absolutely. And one of the things I wanted to get into based on what you just said there is like, yeah, we all sort of, everyone kind of nods along to like the benefits of health and exercise and oh, yeah, no, I should do that. And I don't mean it from like the next question from like a physiological, physiological or biological point of view. But you know, for people who kind of go, oh, you know, yeah, yeah, I know I should do exercise. I think sometimes it's helpful to sort of know the reverse of like, not just like over here why you should do exercise, but actually these are the reasons why not doing exercise. You know, it can affect us. And so even if it's just from personal experience, Tom, from like a kind of well being point of view, you know, people who don't engage in exercise, how does it affect you when you're not like involved in exercising? Because I know you do a lot of work on. You also have to like take care of your back as well. So you've got to moderate your form of exercise to accommodate you. So how does it make you feel when you go through like a stretch or a period where actually I'm not, you know, my exercise isn't at the peak like all of us experience when we go through periods where exercise drops off a bit. How does it make you feel?

So it Kills me. This probably doesn't sound, you know, there'll be a lot of people that don't relate to this because everybody's so different. And for lots of people it's not health and fitness isn't a main like a big part of your life, but sort of been your sister Catherine, who I live with, has likened living with me to owning a collie. I have to walk every day, I have to exercise every day because I have a lot of energy that needs to be used up. And genuinely for me, if I'm not, if I can, you know, I'll go for a day without exercising, that's fine. Day two, I'll start to become a bit, you know, bit pent up and then by day three you're walking around just looking to annoy people for something to do. So that has been a struggle with my back. My urge is always as soon as I get one week under my belt of good exercise without injury, I'm setting a goal for running a ironman. So my goal actually and why it's helpful for me speaking to a coach is more to rein me in, manage my injury and, and think about long term goals rather than that short term. I haven't been for a run for two months. I'm going to go for a 13 mile run. You know, I need to tail it, I need to rein it in and be sensible.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think it's the thing people, everyone's got that area that they're very confident in and we might have other areas where, you know, we're not just, we just don't have the knowledge or we don't have the resources to have the information or whatever. And I often say to people it's, you know, it's not always a lack of resources, it's the lack of resourcefulness and actually the ability or the, or the want or the desire to go and find out more now in the area people are really confident in. Yeah, we do everything we possibly can to go and, you know, learn to go and learn how to implement, to actually put into action and to feel like actually we're an expert in this area and, and we do that because we've got a specific goal in mind. Which is again, another thing I like about your app is that it's sort of, you know, goal orientated as well. It's not just like, oh, here's a plan for this. It's actually right finding over a long period of time, where can I actually get to and building what's like a What I'd call like a compelling future for someone where it's like, actually that's a goal, not just thinking about what can I do over three or four weeks, but over a long period of time. But the other point that's so important, anyone I speak to, which is why I like anything which talks about long term plans is do people want permanent change? And permanent change only comes about from long term planning. And actually adopting behaviors and habits which, you know, repeated over a period of time make a big difference. I remember I went through a phase with fitness where I was only exercising few times a week. If I missed, I then had a week off of exercise, my drop off would be massive. Whereas now, similar to you, I exercise every day. If I didn't exercise for a week, so usually what I do is exercise three weeks and have a week off where I just do other exercise, like low key exercise is I don't really see a shift or a change. And that's the benefit of doing things over a long period of time that you're trying to create permanent change. And I know for most people that's what they want. So it's really good to hear that.

Say there that what you ideally want to get to is a stage where the deviating from the good behavior feels odd. I don't, yeah, that's a good way to do it. It's not something that everybody does. But say for instance, if I go away for a week or you know, we go to Glastonbury or something like that and you, you are drinking a lot and you're eating mostly just white bread with some sort of meat that goes in it. You come back and you think, oh God, I could, I could absolutely murder a vegetable right now. You know, that kind of places, I think, where you want to be able to get to where you naturally gravitate back to the good behavior. And that doesn't come easily. You can get three months of decent health and fitness routine under your belt. It go awry, be that an injury, a holiday, busy period at work and you may well lapse and then you don't do anything for another three months. So I think that's why it's so important to have somebody there to help you and motivate you the whole time as well.

So yes, we're talking about long term plans and like permanent change. And so just talk to us about some of the people that, you know, you've like, you'll have come across in terms of case studies who've used your app and actually the benefits that they found about having a kind of a long term plan with someone that they trust and you know, something they can.

Actually afford as well, I think, I mean there, there's all sorts of. Again, it's part of something I love is the stories that you get from people. Being able to get feedback from customers who are enjoying something that you've created or certainly at least helped create is a massive buzz for me. I think the most rewarding thing to hear is when someone's mindset has shifted. You know, it's great to hear if somebody's lost some weight that they've always wanted to lose. That's fantastic. But it's when somebody has kind of stopped looking at exercise as something that they needed to do that was a choice, it was a battle and started to do it as something that they enjoyed. Started to do it as something that was just part of their life. That for me is the most rewarding bit when someone's. And I should caveat as well. You know, we've been now working with customers for four months. So we aren't here talking about people who have had a two year change. But when you start hearing people talk about, they came in and I spoke to the beginning about wanting to lose some weight and become a size 12. That was their specific goal. And now they're talking about their enjoyment of food. Suddenly they're talking about self confidence. Those for me, I think that's when you start to really think, right, this person is really benefiting from what we do because it's actually improving their saying it proves their life feels too grand but you know, they're getting real genuine happiness from what you're doing rather than just purely focusing on aesthetics.

Yeah, yeah, I think, yeah, it's because always it's the, A lot of things that people present as problems are kind of, that's their surface problem. And then ultimately what they're looking for is actually dealing with whatever their core issue is or core problem is that stems from that surface problem perhaps. So it is great when you hear those things of actually it's sort of fundamentally altered the. That thing internally which is either held them back or been problematic. And actually, you know, with the work you do with work I do, it is great when you actually hear like, yes, they asked you for help in this area and they tell you how as a result of the results it's helped them in, you know, it's improved their work, it's improved their relationships, it's improved xyz and that's when you start to think actually this thing is they recognized for themselves actually how big a stumbling block this had been. It wasn't just like, oh, this is just how I felt in this area. This is actually how it affected them in everything that they do. And you know, and that's fantastic, that's amazing. And so just because, just from your kind of, maybe some. What you've learned from those kind of case studies and actually your research around health and fitness and also your personal experience is, you said something which I think is spot on. If you feel like you're punishing yourself with exercise, then you haven't quite got to the point you need to yet. And actually it's great that your app has a variety of options because people can find the form of exercise and the right person which suits them, but actually to the point where they actually enjoy it. As you said, if you need to get to a point where you kind of enjoy what you do and over a long period of time it becomes. And you see the results, that's part of the enjoyment from your point of view. Tom, what do you think it takes for someone to not feel like they're punishing themselves when it comes to exercise? Because we've all been in that place at the beginning, especially where we're like, oh my God, this is absolute garbage. So what do you think it takes to feel like you're not punishing yourself? And actually, actually I really enjoy doing this.

I think possibly the simple answer is time. I'm always conscious talking about this, where I mean to hear two people sitting around talking about how they need to exercise and they. It's part of their lives and they love it. It's so unrelatable to so many people and to so many people, if not most people, that just sounds terrible and we sound like assholes. So I. So plenty of people we work with hate exercising, but they recognise at the beginning that they need to be eating better. What they don't actually necessarily realize, they often start by thinking, I need to exercise more. What they don't often realise is that their diet needs improving, that their sleep patterns are off. They're not basically that a lot of their life habits may be around, their health and well being aren't quite maybe where they should be. But it might start by feeling punishing, but the rewards that come from having a goal and achieving it. I think I have yet to find someone who has stuck at it, who's not turned from a cynic into almost. I think people can be quite evangelical about health and fitness. I mean, a good example this is, I can be more personal about my own mum than calling anyone out specifically. But, you know, my mum is of near retirement age and she spent her whole life not being a health and fitness person. For some reason. She found inspiration about a year ago, decided to start doing a bit more exercise and now she loves it. She won't stop talking to me about it. She has been so upset during this period that she's not been able to get to her regular classes and she didn't like it for quite a while. So I think there's a lot to be said for time to allow yourself to start seeing saying results in the world of health and fitness again feels a bit tacky, but to feel genuine rewards, to work hard and earn something, regardless of whether we're talking about health and fitness, I think is always something that people gain a great amount from.

Mm, yeah, I totally agree. You mentioned the word reward a few times there, which sort of piqued my curiosity, which was that I think anyone. We've got to. People have to probably. Probably my. One of them. One of my worst traits over the years, which I've had to significantly improve, is actually how does one reward themselves? You know, because there are things where we enjoy doing them and when everything's going well, it's easy to crack on and get on and when things aren't going so well, but you've still got to do those things and things you enjoy, but then things you don't enjoy as much. And health and exercise and fitness can be one of those things initially we've got to have ways that we reward ourselves and actually for doing these things. So I wanted to, as you mentioned it a few times, turn it back on to you and you might not necessarily have an answer that comes to your mind. Maybe it's not necessarily something you think of in such a way, but when it comes to your work and what you do, how do you reward yourself? Because it's something I've certainly had to think about, actually. How do I reward myself for, like the time I put in? How do I reward myself for the work I do with people, even the bits that I don't want to do? What's the compensation I get for that in terms of how I reward myself? Because I think that's an important part of one's well being is actually giving themselves credit for what they do. So how do you do that?

It's a difficult question and it's probably not something I do well enough at the moment. I most Days wake up thinking about odd health. I feel like I've probably been dreaming about it. You know, you suddenly barely conscious and you're thinking about it. I go to bed thinking about it. I think about it almost every second. And that one, isn't good for your mental health and two, it makes you really dull as well. No one wants to talk to a guy who only ever talks about his own business. So I may be not the best person yet to be. To be answering the question. I think what's super important is to carve out time for yourself that isn't focused on the business. And as much as you can, reflect when you have achieved something. Because, say, for instance, the goal of our business is to be helping millions of people and be a recognizable brand, not just across the uk but worldwide. Now, have I achieved that? No. So in the context of where I am, there's a lot more to do. That doesn't mean though, that running a business for two years, going through a seed funding round, building a technology platform that's helping people, it doesn't mean that that all doesn't mean anything either. So maybe this is a trivial example, but when we raised the money for our seed round last year, my co founder and I, to be fair, it took us about three months to actually get around to doing it because our heads kept getting down into work again. But we just went out and celebrated and we spent an evening getting a bit drunk, talking about nothing in particular and just being pleased that we'd done it. So I think try and carve those moments out as much as you can and reflect at least on what you've achieved to this point, even if that's just learning. Have you improved your career prospects or got further down the line or can be proud of something up to this point, rather than staring down the barrel of how much you still got to do.

I think that's a. Yeah, and I think that's the trap, a good thing you highlighted. I think one of the traps a lot of people fall into is it's great when you come up with that initial like idea and ambition or goal in any area of life where you think, oh my God, that would be so exciting to achieve that. And then what happens is that we have that initial excitement. You also have that sort of, you're not, you're not, you're not quite yet, you're not yet aware of what you don't know. So you have the excitement that anything is possible. Then you have the awareness of what you don't know. That becomes a little bit daunting, then you start learning from those things. And I think what happens for a lot of people is that they're always staring at that big goal every day. And every day you're not achieving that big goal, because you don't achieve that big goal every day. And it's the same with me and it's the same with anyone else, that for anyone who stares at that big goal every day, it would get you down because you're not achieving that. And actually, a bit like what you're saying, where that isn't the sole focus, where I go about it is sort of I break down that down into, well, what are the three things that need to happen to make that happen? And then what's the thing I can do every day to make each of those three things happen? And then at least every day, you're kind of ticking those off and feeling like you're building momentum. And so I think you're right in the sense of looking at that big goal, which is that, yeah, there's more work to be done. But actually crediting yourself in terms of within that, well, what, you know. Yes, there's no way to reward yourself every day for achieving the big goal, because that doesn't happen every day. But like you said, carving out time but also crediting yourself for the things within that I think really important.

When it comes to goal setting as well, I think that comes back to network. Unless you successfully started, run and sold multiple businesses, then you don't know what you're doing yet. And that's fine. It's a humbling process and I've actually really enjoyed that about it. But you kind of need to. It's all very well and good setting goals, but are they realistic goals in the beginning? They probably won't be in my world of digital consumer products. I know two founders well now who have said to me that they spent huge amount of marketing. Day one, hugely excited, got something, let's say 10,000 users using it on day one. Day two, two of them came back. Day three, none of them came back. So they'd set themselves an unrealistic goal based on not knowing much about the industry or their tech or anything at the time. So as far as you can surround yourself by good people as well, who can help you set sort of realistic expectations as well.

Yeah. And so as you said, these other founders, they're having sort of judge the landscape and the first time around, it's a difficult thing to do. And one of the things that I think Many business owners or, you know, first time business owners especially, we're in this kind of, can't even call it the new age of social media anymore because it feels like it's been around for a little bit now. So we don't get to call it, we don't get to say, oh, we're new to this anymore, but it certainly is this completely different animal compared to 20, 30, 40 years ago of how you might go about things. And so any previous models that we're going to base our businesses on are going to be off things that only recently worked for people. It's not like we've got 50 years to look back on and go, oh, this is how to do this. So I wanted to ask you, you've had to do a lot of work in terms of navigating the kind of, the social media space and especially health and fitness is massive on social media. So how has it been navigating all of that? And actually one, I guess partly trying to work out how to find your space in the market and you've spoken about actually, well, the specific things that weren't out there and we created something to fit that particular need. But how have you found your, how have you found trying to navigate the.

Social media world in terms of standing out as a product or kind of from a founder's perspective of all that noise out there?

Noise, Talk to me about the noise.

So nobody's doing as well as they're making out on social media, be it a business, be it an individual. That's the point of social media. You're living your best life digitally. No one's put, well, some people are, but it's not the norm to be just showing you sitting at home whilst your girlfriend's away for the weekend doing nothing in your pants. You know, that's not what people are doing on social media.

So that sounds like what your day to day life is.

Yeah, I've revealed too much. No, I know from my perspective as well. Like I put out, I'm not particularly active LinkedIn. I think in of itself LinkedIn brings all sorts of cringeworthy things to the, to the table, but it does have its place. But people have come up to me and this was, you know, maybe six months into the business and gone, wow, it sounds like it's going really well. And I'm like, well, yeah, that's the point that that's what LinkedIn is for. And you might be having a tough time at the moment, but people aren't putting out things saying, oh, you guess what, never guess what. Sales are down 20% month on month. So I think part of that again, is just talking to people. Once you start having a wider network of other people who are in it and you can start having frank conversations, you realize it's not just you who's working hard every day, because if you believe social media, then everybody else was an overnight success and it's just not the case.

Yeah, yeah. And that's a huge. That's another particular reason of getting people around you in a network of people, because one, you never, ever want to feel like, you know, you never want to be or feel like you would be the smartest person in the room as a first thing. Now if you're on your own, you're the only person in the room. So that's kind of out the window anyway.

But you're also the stupidest.

Yeah, you're also. Very Good point. And so. But yeah, you want people around you who. Exactly, as you were just saying that can give you the. The reality, rather than being confused by being isolated, that you're gonna look to social media to see what's going on there, to find your connection and then feel like everyone's on holiday every single day, which they're not. So you're absolutely right on that part, on that score. And how. What's great about it, though, is, like, with what I do and with what you do, you know, it just wouldn't have happened for us. We wouldn't have found a way to kind of create something that was super passionate about. We wouldn't have had so many opportunities. So almost on a question off complete. You know, on a complete tangent, what would you be doing if the social media world didn't exist? If you knew, like. Yeah. Back in the day when you could work the 9 to 5 job for 50 hours and get. For 50 years and get a gold watch at the end of it and all of that stuff. What would you be doing back in, like, say, 30, 40 years ago?

Oh, tricky question. I guess there's what I would probably be doing and what I'd like to think I'd be doing.

Okay.

I mean, let's just be clear. First and foremost, the 9 to 5 is no bad thing. I think it's very easy for entrepreneurs to get really, like, evangelical about, like, this lifestyle. There's a lot not great about.

Oh, it's awful. Yeah.

About this as well. So I think as long as you're doing something that you take pride in, I've always got a lot of time for people doing that. If we're talking 30, 40 years ago, I'm gonna say what I'd like to be doing is something with animals. I mean, you know, and I get taken the piss out for this a lot. I'm not sure exactly what it would be and it will sound cringy to say some sort of conservation work or something, but it probably realistically be something like a zookeeper. I mean, I'd absolutely love that.

Yeah. Okay. Or David Attenborough, basically. It just, you know, he's got about 70 years on you, so he got there first, basically.

Yeah. If we're going 30, 40 years, then he's already beat me to take me back further and I can try and topple him. That would be ideal. Yeah. Although the world would probably be worse place as a result. So maybe we won't do that.

And I mean, I mean, I guess there's a reason there's not like a animal fitness app, but maybe you say.

That there probably is.

Do you reckon? Okay.

In this day and age, if you can imagine it exists, it probably does in some.

So, God, I've taken you all over the place, haven't I? Absolute tangent. But. So when we talk about, you know, so, yes, animal, animals aside, you're currently, you're currently, you're currently on your, your particular path now. And I mean amongst all of this, because it's almost feels like with both, Both what we've been doing might be wrong in saying this, that we've been probably. Probably feels like we've been doing it for a similar amount of time. In some ways, maybe you've been doing it for longer. But amongst everything that you feel like you've learned going forward, that you would say to try and make it all easier for yourself. Like, there's no way that you can predict for all of it. So what would you have said to the version of you. I think you maybe gave a variation of this earlier, but what would you be saying to the version of you back at the start that would have gone, oh, that would make it 10 times easier?

I don't know if it would. Made it 10 times easier because you might never start in the first place.

Yeah, true.

No, I think humility is probably the biggest thing. I'm still learning. You don't know what you're doing when you start a business. As I say, unless you've successfully sold several businesses in the past, you don't know what you're doing. So you need to lose that sense of ego. You need to be. You have to have self belief and you have to keep going and have conviction what you're doing. But you need to be open enough to listen to other people and bring in as many people as you possibly can do. So I think the faster you can lose that sense of ego, the better. And in fact, actually it's now widely the MVP model. So minimal viable product is kind of what most people now talk about, which I think in itself is a cliche. But the whole point of that is do something quickly and inexpensively as you can, because it's probably rubbish and just start testing it. Learning I would definitely more so than I even did because I went in with that attitude, I would even more so can you strip it back even more? Can you take less risk? Can you learn more faster? Because the pressure only starts to mount the more you put, you know, if you've got more financially vested in it, perhaps friends, family vested in it, the pressure on you will only become greater. So learn as much as you can and it will be more than you think it is on a smaller budget. So really, really prove stuff out as much as you can before you get seriously vested in something.

That's it. No, I like that. That's a very good point. And yeah, you just, you just can get pressures from it from any angle really that you just, you just, you wouldn't be aware of. And I think, you know, in terms of, I think in terms of self care as well, because I think the, a lot of people that I work with fundamentally is they're very, very capable, very talented, very intelligent, whatever. But say each of them, they're incredibly caring, genuine people. And then all it comes down to is like the analogy of like an oxygen mask coming down on a plane. And whose mask do they tell you to put on first? And they tell you to put yours on before helping everyone else. And I only mentioned that because actually just how well we take care of ourselves is such an important part of it. And as you're talking about the pressures and things like that one, it's not just in terms of your emotional intelligence or resilience or whatever, but actually just clarity brings things closer. I would echo your point in terms of building as much clarity as quickly as possible by really diving into it, getting the whole picture so that you know what to focus on and being prepared. And I think a lot of in terms of emotional intelligence is actually just being prepared for knowing when you're going to feel stressed, for knowing when this might happen. You don't know all the time, but if I Know if I'm an individual who knows that actually through this tough period, mornings are really difficult for me. Okay, this is how I'm going to plan and prepare for my mornings. I know it's going to be difficult and this is what I need to put in place to do that. And so I'd echo a similar thing, actually, in terms of really get a good sense of the picture so that you can be prepared both for the practical side of it, but also the emotional side of it, I think is important. And I think everything amongst everything you've said, you know, and all of that stuff. And when we talk about. When I was talking about actually being prepared for the emotional side of it, was talking to Tom prior to this conversation about this, about how difficult is actually for someone to convince their mind by trying, sorry, try and change their mindset by convincing their mind. And actually the much, much easier way is shifting their body, changing the blood flow and the biochemistry and releasing whatever hormones make ourselves feel better. And that's why I really like your app and I really like the way that you've gone about it and I think it's a real genuine care for the. For the consumer first. And so something that I really want to be able to introduce to my particular clients and I will be doing that. But, Tom, for people listening who think actually this is something that I'd. I want to seriously look at my health and fitness, maybe with the current climate they've, like you mentioned with your mum, their health and fitness has been comparable by. With what they can do. But actually something like your app is something that allows them to keep that up so they don't lose momentum, whether they're a beginner or whether they want to find a way to carry on and build connections with trainers that, you know, that they feel like they have a bond with over a long period of time, people are interested in all of that. Where can they find your app?

So the first thing I'd recommend is go to our website. It's oddhealth.com that's od and then health.com because then you can find out more about us, you can see our coaches and you can download the app from there and you can also head to the App Store or Google Play Store as well and search for Odd Health there. You'll be able to download us from either of those.

Good stuff. Good stuff. So I want to thank you again for your time, Tom, and I think with all of the stuff with your app is. Is incredibly relevant right now and a lot of the conversations, unsurprisingly on this podcast have been around the current climate and I think things that people can introduce in their life that kind of molds around their life, whatever it looks like, whether it's stuck in a small space or quarantine or isolation or when all of this dies down, that actually with their busy work schedule that they can actually find ways to keep exercising on the road or they've got a specific health concern and they need to consult with someone about a very, very specific thing and they can find the right type of trainer via app. And so I really appreciate your time in giving people a bit of, bit of insight into what they can be doing, but also for what with regards to entrepreneurs and setting up businesses, actually what they can expect on their journey as well, which isn't all sunshine, you know, sunshine and rainbows and it have difficulty points but actually along with it, like you said, and I thought probably one of the most profound points is actually just checking how passionate you are about it. And I think all of that is really useful for people to take away. So thank you very, very much for your time, Tom.

Well, thank you David. It's always a pleasure to be called profound. So no, I'll take that. Thank you. I've enjoyed it.

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