Handling Uncertainty With Ben Mercer | Ep 73 | David Hulman

People seem to forget if you change today, today will change your life. How are you doing, Ben?

Yeah, very good. David, how are you?

Very good, thank you. We've just tried an intro about three different times now. So, yeah, we finally got an intro that actually made sense. So thankfully that's all going to be. No one listening in will have heard that. But anyway, we've had it. We've had a bit of a laugh here, so. But thank you very much, Ben, for agreeing to do this. And it's really good to have you on the, on the podcast. And I know we've spoken very briefly before, but just for people who maybe aren't aware of your career and who you are, do you want to just talk a little bit about your background for us?

Yeah. So I played professional rugby for about 10 years, so I was kind of involved in the academy set up when I was at school. And I was one of those sort of annoying kids who also had, like, pretty decent grades. So there's a bit of a, you know, sort of dual thing. Which do you do? And I went to university in Newcastle for three years and got an English degree. Then after that I went back to rugby full time and spent probably eight, nine years playing professionally. And I finished up in France at Stade Rouennet, which is in Normandy.

Okay.

Yeah. And since then I've been moving into a kind of new career, which has been a sort of slow and slow, painful growth process. But I've recently written a book about my rugby experience and I'm writing freelance for doing different clients, working across various digital projects. It's all kind of picking up now. It's getting quite exciting. So, yeah, that's that.

Excellent. Well, you know, a big reason why I wanted to get you on the, on the podcast, aside from the fact that I noticed recently that you've all of these things that you've just mentioned in terms of the transition, your career, you've now actually gotten a book which is very exciting. And firstly, congratulations on that, on that achievement. But one of the things is both of us coming from a sporting background, you and rugby, myself and football is, you know, for a lot of people who listen into this podcast are dealing with tremendous uncertainty in their life in some way shape or form. And I thought it'd be great to have you on here because as I know as a athlete and you know, the actual life of an athlete, but also the transition, the amount of uncertainty can feel extremely overwhelming and it can, it can really feel. It can feel like life has to shift in massive ways. In order to get back on track again. And actually it doesn't always take big shifts, it just takes small moves in the right direction. So, you know, what I wanted to talk about is very much your career and actually the uncertainty within that and how people can learn to deal with uncertainty in their own lives. So talk to me. You know, as you're growing up and you're trying to, you know, find your way in rugby and professional rugby and it's very, very, very competitive environment and, you know, you're on. You know, some people might be in a job for 10 plus years, but in a sporting career you might have a contract for a few years and you don't know what the next step is. So how did you find uncertainty in your sporting career? Was it something that you felt like you could tackle quite well or was it something that was a daily, a daily thing to just try and manage it in some way?

I don't know. I think to begin with it was all very exciting and it was a lot of fun, so. And it's easy for those, it's easy to be like that when it's going well, you know, and you don't, you don't have to necessarily think about anything else. And sports, very kind of simple because you turn up and you're told what to wear, you're told where to go. You know, we do is turn up and do what you're told and try as hard as you can, you know, within, within limits. And then. Yeah, and it's kind of simple. I think the first time I experienced kind of major uncertainty was actually after the, after I left university. I got a contract immediately. So one of my friends is the 2008 kind of financial crisis. So I graduated in 2009 and my friends were kind of struggling for work, quite a lot of them, whereas I walked straight into a job and a job that I was excited by. So it was very easy for me to begin with. And then two years after that I kind of thought that I was going to be moving on to another team and the, that fell through. And because it was quite late in the sort of recruitment cycle, I was so sat up, sat at home suddenly for a few months and, you know, nothing I did made any difference. So it was the first time I felt, yeah, a bit adrift and a bit like I was out of control of what I was doing. And that was my first brush with uncertainty. And actually it's really difficult. Yeah.

So. And you know, when you say sitting at home and you know, people in between Jobs or whatever it might be, and, you know, they have those moments at home where they have more time with their thoughts and they start to question themselves and everything else. So, you know, what was the kind of thought process when you're at home by yourself? What was kind of thought process? You know, presumably you sort of not maybe question yourself, maybe you wouldn't refer to it as doubts, but you obviously are thinking, what's going to happen next? So what was kind of your thought process whilst you were waiting in between, in between jobs?

It was difficult because I like to do things, I like to do them well and I like to get on with stuff, but I'm not necessarily, particularly when I was younger, maybe not that good at going and finding the things to do because, you know, they'd always been sort of presenters that were put in front of me. So I don't think I actually dealt with it particularly brilliantly, but I found it incredibly frustrating and I just tried to get down different sort of touchstones in my day. So I was obviously trying to keep fit in case an opportunity came up. So that was a sort of pretty easy kind of thing to sort of put into my day. But beyond that, I didn't. Maybe I kind of didn't like, feel like I could get on myself, which. Which was hard. Whereas I think now, or, you know, I think I deal with it quite differently. I'd be on the phone a lot more and I'd be a lot more kind of outgoing and a bit more experimental in what I tried, whereas at the time I was very blinkered in terms of how I pursued other opportunities, in a way.

Yeah, and I get that. I mean, from. From a sporting back for anyone who's not from a sporting background where, you know, you see the top, the very, very elite level sport where, you know, if you're. If you people just kind of assume that's the life of every professional athlete, when it really isn't. And it really is a struggle. And the reason why, in a sporting environment, a lot is, truthfully, a lot is presented for you. You are given a lot of, kind of a lot is done for you, A lot is laid out for you, but it's because of the high demands and the high pressure of what you have to do. They want you to have full concentration because they know, and when I say they coaches or teams or owners, that they know that really these people have to perform at their absolute best. Otherwise you will be shipped, you will be moved, it will be transitioned very, very swiftly. And so when other People look at elite athletes, and I don't know how you feel, Ben, when you see it kind of the way athletes are spoken about on the news, whether it's either struggles with mental health or athletes talking about the amount they're paid or whatever situation they might be in and sort of lambasted by people because, oh, but you're an elite athlete, you love what you do, and presumably you get paid quite well to do what you love to do, so you should just get on with it. And that's just not the case. It's not that easy for people. And it's, you know, there is a lot more challenges in that. How do you feel about how athletes are looked at from the outside rather than being on the inside of it, if that makes sense. How do you feel about it?

I think you touched on a little bit of it there where, you know, how what people regard as a professional athlete is actually the very tip of the pyramid, you know, and actually those, you know, and deservedly, they get the lion's share of the coverage, the financial rewards, the sponsorships and things like that, because, you know, they. They've earned their way. You know, they've climbed up there. And there's some amazing stories like, within that. But actually, you know, there aren't many of those jobs, if you just look at it from sort of numerical, you know, sort of statistical standpoint. I mean, I touched on it a little bit in the book where in England there's about maybe 4, 500 premiership rugby contracts and there are 15 positions. You know, some people can play two or three positions, but actually quite a lot of those are specialists. So when you break it down further, there's really only, you know, you could be in the top 50 people in your role in the country. And actually there are kind of loads and loads and loads of players in different divisions, different countries. And so that. That top end is such a small number of people. And it's the same if you think about premiership football. You know, there's 11 guys.

Absolutely.

You know, there's really very few numbers of those jobs, whereas actually there are loads and loads of contracts. And football is, you know, the kind of most global game. And I think it's also that the globality that are kind of.

Great word, by the way.

Yeah, yeah. Just coined one there. Yeah. The kind of international nature of football is the other thing that people. They know, obviously that there are guys from all over the world in the team they support. But if anyone. If anyone gets the chance, I didn't find it Particularly I gave up a little bit before the end, I've got to say. But with the Man City documentary that was on Amazon, they had Sergio Aguero, who, to everyone's all intents and purposes, is incredibly successful. He's. He gets paid an absolutely outrageous amount of money a week, but he's living in an apartment in Manchester on his own. He sees his son one week a month. He doesn't speak fantastic English, even though he's been here for quite a long time. And I think that's the other thing is this guy, he's earning all this money, but actually there are other ways in which his life is maybe like a lot less satisfactory than just sort of someone who turns up and does a 9 to 5 and goes home. So, yeah, I think it's that element, the slightly more human element that people, they know. They know it, they know that this guy's from somewhere else, but maybe they don't interrogate, like, what that means and how that feels.

Yeah, no, I totally agree. I think the international point is. Is also extremely relevant in terms of what, you know, even I was sort of referring to kind of people from the outside kind of taking for granted what athletes go through. And I think, you know, for English athletes, they maybe take for granted what an international athlete who wants to come to England, say, for example, football, where this is the top level. So they've done everything they can and they've managed to somehow, you know, through any adversity or whatever, managed and deservedly got themselves a Premiership contract or whatever. And that's just the start of it. I think the example you just gave, which I saw that documentary, is the perfect example of the amount of sacrifices that has to make where just 90% of people just. They wouldn't be able to make that kind of sacrifice. But for him to be able to afford that living for his family and him willing to give that sort of opportunity up for a better future, I mean, there's so many people that they're willing to give up their present for a better future. And not everyone can do that.

But I think you're right as well, say, because you give up more than the time you're at training. So that's the other thing. And if you think, again, the top guys, they get a lot better care, so they might have a chef, they might have their own kind of private medical personnel, they might have their own physios and massage guys and things like that. But a lower level of sport, which is certainly what I was involved in, particularly in France, Actually don't get that care. But you need to keep yourself in kind of good working order. So you're essentially on duty all the hours that you're not at work, whereas a lot of people, you know, they get to put their work down and go home. And there are certainly jobs where you don't get to do that, or your job can kind of encroach on your recreational time. But with sport, you very much are, you know, you're on duty 24, 7. It's like you can't necessarily go and have five beers or you can't stay out all night. And those are things you might not want to do anyway, but they're certainly considerations that maybe people don't quite understand the ramifications of.

So you touched on it very briefly there. So, you know, you mentioned your time in France, so talk a little bit about that, because not everyone can make that move. But just what was the lead up to it? How did you know there was interest or from France or how did you know that actually there's an opportunity? Maybe, maybe I'll try my hand in France. Maybe I need a new challenge. So talk about that and then actually what. How you balance that with your personal life as well.

Yeah. So after this kind of previous period of uncertainty that we touched on earlier, I ended up. I played in Australia for. I was over there for about, I don't know, 10 months maybe. And I had a great time and I'd have happily stayed there another year, but I got a good offer to come back to the UK and I played it, played the year here. It went fine, but, you know, not spectacularly. And I was kind of thinking, do I, do I, you know, right, do I knock this on the head? Do I go part time? Do I, you know, use the rugby to go somewhere else? And I'd always fancy the idea of going to France. I thought that, you know, the kind of rugby culture there is incredible. It's a bit more old school, but that, you know, it's incredibly well sort of supported and followed and very randomly, an English coach I knew got a job out there at a project team. So that, you know, a club, Rouen, is in the north of France, which isn't the sort of traditional rugby area, which is the south. And he basically phoned up a few of us and was like, well, you know, what do you reckon? And I was like, well, you know, I've always wanted to go there. Maybe this isn't quite how I thought it would happen. But, you know, here's an Offer. So it's like, right, I'll do it. And I had about a week to kind of think about it and weigh my options up. And then I was like, well, no, I'll just go. So I ended up going and yeah, I loved it.

Good, good. And then once you're out there, I mean, in terms of a settling in period, like you want a certain amount of time to settle in the club, want you to hit the ground running. Absolutely. And like just be absolutely fine with everything, presumably. So, you know, what was the settling time in? What was that like for you? Was it quite easy? Was.

Wasn'T. I wouldn't say it was easy, but I wouldn't. I'd say everyone was very nice, very friendly and we were really motivated to learn French. And we kind of had a soft landing and we had an English coach. There were five English guys there and two of them spoke really, really good French. So the other three of us, we had lessons once a week and we ended up managing to convince the guy to give us another one. So we had two lessons a week. The other thing was that actually at that point, because it was a new team, it was quite amateurish. So that was a bit, a big shock where I'd gone from a kind of environment that was very, very organized and very structured, particularly within the sort of training sessions. And we went into this environment where that was all very new to them. So it wasn't only that we couldn't speak, it was also that the actual rugby was quite what we used to as well. But yeah, it was. I think you need to kind of relax in those situations because a lot of people go over there and they immediately think like, oh, this isn't what I'm used to and they start kind of railing against it. Whereas you need to almost like, you know, get over, get over your own feelings a little bit, take a step back, be a bit more of an observer and then kind of relax into it and then you can maybe. Yeah, yeah, maybe kind of start to influence that environment a bit later on. But yeah, there's so many people who go there and try and impose themselves on it and it's just a recipe for disaster.

Yeah, you used a word. The word influence is a word I very commonly use. I think it's such an important word to use in so many different contexts. For example, relationships, you know, people, there's so many people who are looking for certainty and really more than certainty, they're looking for control. And in relationships, control doesn't exist. You can influence a Relationship, you can't control it. There's no control there. Exactly what you said just then. In a sporting environment, those athletes who look to grab a hold of, yes, you want to be confident, yes, you want to feel like you can take charge of a situation, but you're always influencing and anytime. For me as an athlete, but also for people I speak to, whenever someone's trying to then control the situation, in other words, that basically means that to make sure it happens the way they want it to happen, happen. When you try and control it, that's when problems start to arrive because there's no sense of control ever in a sporting environment. And. But, you know, but the real thing one needs to do is purely accept where they are, not kind of bullshit yourself in terms of, actually, yeah, I'm, you know, I'm the shit, or I think I'm this, or I think I'm not. Just accept like, okay, I'm here. This is a new thing. And exactly, I think the way you described it, just be an observer for a while and accept where you are. And if you can be very clear as to where you currently, then you can easily draw out what the next step is. You can say, if I'm here, okay, what's okay, if I'm here, then step, step one must be this then, and then step two must be there. So I think that's a very rational way of thinking. In terms of how you spoke about that, how were. What about the other English guys? How did they cope with it?

They were actually pretty similar, to be fair. I mean, the two guys who spoke French, they had a lot of experience of playing rugby in France, so they were kind of okay. And the other two were in the same boat as me, really. So we kind of. We managed to sort of keep a relatively level head. My flatmate actually was. He was the playmaker of the team. So for him, he. He actually did need to have a sort of level of control. So for him it was a little bit more fraught, I think. But he definitely, because he performed it, made it made that easier for him, does help to influence because he could back it up. Whereas if you kind of turn up and run your mouth off and then you don't back it up, make yourself very unpopular. But I think just to go back to that a little bit was what strikes me when you see good captains in sport, they never seem to get carried away either way. They don't get too carried away with a win and they don't get too carried away with the defeat. They Keep relative calm throughout. And I think when you. When you see in rugby, you're talking about Richie McCaw or, you know, those sorts of people who are sort of serial winners and you just. They never really seem too emotional when they were performing in that environment, which I always found fascinating.

Yeah, that's a really good point. I've got a story exactly on that. When I was about 16, playing. Playing rugby, and we were told this team we were playing, what school was, it was St. George's that they had a really top player at the time, and. And we. We'd never really been told of, you know, warned in advance that a school had an exceptional player. And I thought we, you know, play against exceptional players all the time. Why would we be particularly warned? They hadn't lost a game all year, this other. This school, and. And they'd just been battering everyone by about 40, 50 points. And so we. We basically prepped for this game for about three weeks, which was really strange because we had games in the mean, and yet we were prepping beyond those games for this particular game. And no one really understood what on earth was going on. And so we had a. Basically a game plan for this particular individual. And I remember playing in this game, I played scrum half as a rugby player. And I remember we. I think we went two tries up at the beginning of the game and we were just absolutely buzzing because this thing had been built up bigger than it actually was. This was purely a school rugby match and this had been built up like it was sort of like World Cup Final in our eyes. So people, like, after 10 minutes, like, going absolutely crazy. And we know, we knew who this individual was in terms of. We got point, we got points out who it was in the team. And he looked exactly what you said he looked like. He couldn't care less. And we were sort of thinking, why. But they haven't lost all year. The two tries down after 10 minutes, and they don't. They don't really care. All of a sudden, this guy, he basically gets tackled by two of our centres and in the middle of this tackle, he gets his arms free and he throws a pass out the back of his hand. Maybe I exaggerate this over time. About 30 yards to the winger, not just to him, but in front of him, where he scores in the corner. And this is the most ridiculous piece of skill I've ever seen. They then score about six tries. They win the game really easily. It turns out that guy was Owen Farrell. And so. But exactly what you said. I Saw him play a few times growing up at sort of county trials and various other things. And whilst everyone, you know, in certain pressure situations. I remember so clear. Exactly. I've never really thought about it, but it's absolutely true. Based on what you've just said, he just was so, you know, obviously the ability. Knowing, you know, your ability and how good you are obviously helps you, but you could see from an early age that he just had that thing where nothing mattered. You see, for, you know, anyone who doesn't know Owen Farrell is a fly, plays flyhal for center for England now. Exceptional player, one of the best in his position. And you see him now when he's one of those players that, you know, he can get sort of aggressive and everything else, but actually, in terms of his temperament in a game, in terms of managing situations and pressure, you would say he's. He's. He is up there, there most of the time and being very good in those situations and. Exactly.

You say that because for England, I think he's the captain, obviously, and I think that in his club team, I'd say he is like that. But I'd say at England, where he has this leadership thing, you see that he's not always. He doesn't always manage to keep that kind of. That same level of calm that he does elsewhere, which. So it's interesting you bring him up because I think, yeah, in terms of his, like, his belief in his own ability, I think, like, you know, it's absolutely justified and incredible. But as a leader, I don't, you know, I don't know. He's. He's got. He's got a way to go, I think. But, you know, he's still quite a young guy. He's only about 27 or something like that.

Well, it's, it's. I mean, it's amazing how early he got made captain, really, isn't it? And England have struggled, to be honest, England have struggled, really, probably for a captain or an experienced captain for a long time. But no, watching the World cup back, I think, yeah, there just. There are moments where you're looking for, you know, especially in a World cup or a World cup final where, you know, not everyone's been to a World cup final before, but someone in those situations where you. You look at them and you feel like they've been in this situation before, even if they have not been in that game before. Yeah, they've been that situation. And I take what you mean with him. Sometimes you sort of feel like he's kind of learning on the job a bit. And, and sometimes it, you know, I mean, he gets in the World cup the amount of cheap shots he got as well. But you know, you know, you also know why the other team give him cheap shots is because they know he's a bit of a hothead and everyone's.

Out to rile him.

Exactly. So it is interesting.

But it's interesting as well. You say, like, I can't remember the exact thing, but I mean, definitely the case with Macaw. But there's quite often people that win the World cup have kind of lost one previously.

Yes, that is true.

And you're right because they understand how it feels to be in that pressure situation and you don't know how you're going to do until you get there. So actually to have any experience of it is quite an incredible advantage.

It's a shame it didn't work for Eddie. Hasn't worked for Eddie Jones as of yet. But hopefully he'll get it right one day, won't he? No, I. No, I definitely take your point. And you know, when you. Ben, when you look at elite rugby players now, I mean, when I look at them even say 10 years ago, one in terms of physical specimen, but everything else that, the speed at which rugby has grown, I mean, when you look at those players, how. What's the right way of asking this question? How it's hard for people to know what the kind of gap in quality is between professional rugby players and say, those absolutely elite players, when you look at them from, from your point of view, how far away does that kind of level of elite rugby player feel to you? Does it feel like actually that, you know, they just had that little bit extra? Do you feel like it's just a mindset thing or they just like in a different stratosphere altogether?

That's really interesting. I think when you play and you come across these other guys, I think with some of them, you, you think, oh, actually you're not necessarily much better or, you know. Yeah, there are certain, there's a source to an extent, there are a lot of players who, given kind of equal opportunity could maybe do the same thing. And then I think there is a band of player and that could be because of their physical attributes. It could be because their skill level people like Farrell or George Ford, or it could be that they've got both, you know.

Yeah.

And there is a sort of band of player who, you do see them and you think, oh, you know, that's beyond, that's beyond me. And that and that's fair enough as well, you know.

Well, that was the. That was the end of my rugby. We're knowing Feral through that pass at the back of his head. He basically retired me there and then. No, that's not me.

Yeah, I think sometimes, yeah. And you do need to respect that these people, that there are some people who are just better. And I think particularly as you. As you keep playing, as your sort of athletic career continues, you're like, there's a point where, you know, realism has to sort of join in. You've got to respect that some people are just better and that's fine.

You mentioned in that opportunity and absolute. Whilst I'm not a massive. I wouldn't say I don't believe in luck, but I do feel like people have the opportunity to leverage as many things as possible so that, you know, it tips in that more in their favor. Having said that, I know in a sporting environment, you know, success is when opportunity means preparation, essentially. And so for you, you know, you mentioned people given the same opportunity would, you know, some people would be able to step up more. Do you feel like you were given a fair opportunity through your career? Do you feel like you had. Do you feel like at some points, maybe. Maybe it's from a kind of a team standpoint in terms of coaches looked at you more or less favorably? Maybe certain teams, you know, didn't. Did rate you or didn't rate you. That's how I sometimes felt. I don't know how on earth your world necessarily looked, but do you feel like you always got a fair crack at the whip?

I think there's a bit of both in that. I think there were. There were sort of sliding doors moments where maybe it got hurt or maybe I made a bad decision. I think sometimes there's. There are things where you're like, well, you know, maybe if I'd done that instead, then that would have figured out. But I think it's every. Every single sports person would have these moments, you know, it's sort of a bit. It's a bit silly to kind of beat yourself up over them. And it's maybe only in hindsight where you can maybe learn something rather than, you know, give it the big what if all the time. Sure, yeah.

It's.

I'm just trying to think of some sort of specifics. There's one time where I was going to get picked for a kind of England youth representative team and I tore my hamstring two days before the guy called me up. So I was like, oh, that was A bit gutting, but I think a bit like you're saying, in terms of opportunity, there are opportunities that can come your way that are nothing to do with you. But I think what I wasn't good at was maybe manufacturing those opportunities for myself and being a bit more outgoing and a bit, you know, having a bit of my own personal outreach. And I've got a friend from school who's an actress and me and her, we've talked about it before where actually it's quite similar to sport.

Definitely.

Yeah, you need to kind of foster relationships with other people so when they get an opportunity, they think of you, you know. So, yeah, for a sports coach, read a director or, you know, that sort of thing. So it's definitely not just limited to sport. I'd say it's probably applicable to anything. You need to sort of nurture those and prove, have, have proof things that people can see that you can do. And so when something comes up, you know, your little spider webs out there and it's tugged on by somebody.

Yeah, no, I definitely agree with that. And both, yeah, both in a sporting background and actually with what I do now, you know, in terms of referrals and things like that, when people need help with certain things, then more and more you become that go to person and that name and. Absolutely. So, you know, you're talking about fostering relationships and I think that's probably a good point to kind of move from rugby into what was kind of the, you know, transitioning into the next stage. And for any athlete, this is one of the. What can feel initially, one of the, it's going to be the toughest thing ever. And then actually you get the opportunity to experience the sides of life that you didn't whilst you're an athlete. And all of a sudden when you realize that, but also realize you can meet, you know, whatever needs you met through your sport, you can actually meet those needs outside of sport as well. It takes a bit of time to realize that, but that does, that does happen. I've been retired maybe seven years now because of injury. And so talking about that transition as you approaching kind of, you know, the late stage of the rugby and thinking about what was happening next, you know, what was that phase like and what were the feelings at that point?

I had a few different kind of. A few different sort of priorities, I suppose, because I had a girlfriend at the time, she was living in Germany, I was living in northern France, and then I was kind of like, do I carry on playing? And I kind of I did look into some sort of slightly different opportunities, maybe to go to Germany and pick up another language and kind of that. And there was a couple of my teammates went to Hong Kong, which is a pretty classic sort of destination for transitioning rugby players. Good, you can go and play semi pro and get some work. But that, that I felt I didn't necessarily really, really want to do that, but I felt that was off the, the table really with her. So I had these few. I had a few different things to consider. And a bit like you're saying, there's all these other things you can get to experience. But what I felt that, I mean, my degrees in English Literature, I'm not necessarily trained for something specific, so I was almost overwhelmed by the sort of breadth of options. So you feel like you kind of could do anything, but you can't do anything right now. That's quite tough.

Yeah, I recognize that. Yeah, you're sort of like really, really, really average at like everything. But. No, but it's difficult when you, when you've worked your whole life to be. To try and master one thing that, to think of what the next thing to master is. Tough in it.

Yeah. And it's. And there's a few things within that where you almost think, oh, I need to find something now. And you don't at all because there's kind of no pressure on you. You can experiment and you're not making some sort of big definitive call, you know, you're just going to try something and if it doesn't figure out and you know that's not a problem. And to expect something to immediately fulfill everything that sport did for you is unfair and it's not going to serve you very well. Yeah, and then I had another point on that, but I can't remember what it was. So, I mean, for you, like, did you find, when you stopped playing, how. How did that, like, feel for you in the immediate? Like, what. How do you feel immediately?

Yeah, it was, it was a strange. Yeah, it was a strange one because I basically had an injury, sort of chronic injury, which basically meant for two or three years I'd miss a few months of the season. It's got to the point a number of years back where I'd seen maybe four or five specialists every year who basically said, you know, with what you have when it comes to footballers, 90% of footballers, when they retire because of an injury, it's because of this injury. And so they were basically hinting at, look, this isn't really going anywhere. Luckily, what I did was I thought, actually what I'll do, I'll stop speaking to the people who tell me I can't do it and I'll go and find someone who, who might be. Who might actually feel like they can fix this. So luckily I had a good personal trainer who managed it to help it, but I kind of knew where I stood and that probably had a time limit. So you mentioned you referred to something else in terms of kind of almost softer approach. I sort of had a softer approach to it, but I still had. I still definitely had aspirations and knew I could play at a higher level. And so it was, it was a strange combination of circumstances, between injury, change in sort of personal circumstances, which made things quite difficult to balance football with, and then weighing up, actually when you, you know, you're playing with, with, with players who, approaching 40 and maybe in their own words are hanging on because they're so scared of what's next. Yeah. And so I was looking at that sort of into my future and thinking, do I want to commit to something where I'm. No, I'm not, you know, I'm nowhere near the top of. Top of the food chain in terms of football. Had the realism that I knew I wasn't going to be that and, you know, am I willing to kind of afford a lot, you know, a lifestyle where, you know, it's not going to be perfect between injury and everything else. And it was starting to really weigh on me. It ended all quite abruptly. And so whilst there was a softer approach, actually the moment I stopped was a very abrupt moment. And part of that was in sort of my own decision, part that was out of my control. And so at that particular. So whilst the softer approach helped, the abrupt moment, I would say for two or three months I'd lined up another job in a corporate environment and having never worked in a corporate environment, had no idea what that would look like in terms of the time schedule, in terms of being sat, you know, in an office where, you know, as an athlete, you know, you're traveling, you're doing this, you're doing that, you're constant, constantly socializing when you're not playing football, basically. And it was, it was mad. It was so out of my comfort zone. And to sort of prove the point on that, when I left my sort of first corporate team about a year later to go to it to join a different team, one of my, My manager's manager basically said, you know, so sad to see you leave. Like, you're so friendly, so approachable, so Confident, which is complete contrast to when we first met you, where for three months you were so quiet. You sort of really didn't know, really felt like you didn't want to be here. And she said, I couldn't remember your name. I kept calling you like John for, like, oh, John or Simon, other people. So even part of it was sort of through kind of some more traumatic stuff that was going on behind the scenes. But I was just sort of very much not myself. And so out your comfort zone. The meaning I took from that kind of long ramble I just gave you was when there's no net, when there's nothing, there's not like a fallback option or anything like that. When you kind of. It's not just something you want to do, it's now something you have to do. You have to work this out. You have to sort it actually from that place. You can do some pretty amazing things. And for whatever reason, I'd got into writing a book which, you know, a few years later got published. And that's the sort of thing where that would have never happened if those series of events happened in that way. So it was very strange, very traumatic. But I don't look back at it in pain or don't look back at it in terms of thinking this is a terrible thing and also any other difficult circumstances I ever have. I always think you never have to be happy that it happened. But if you can find some sort of empowering meaning from it, what are you supposed to take from this? It actually creates a level of excitement in terms of, what am I going to get out of this? And that was the thing for me, really. And so it was strange. It was very, very, very strange. But eventually kind of phase into something else. And I don't know about you, you kind of just end up. You create these opportunities, but you kind of fall into something. I don't know if that's how you felt it, but you kind of just find a natural progression. You know, you find something you're kind of interested in, and then the momentum starts building and you kind of just go down that road and. And see where that road takes you. I mean, is that you're. You've only been retired a few years now. How are you? How does that feel for you?

I think just like the last year I was in France was, for reasons outlined in the book, was kind of fraught because there wasn't a unifying goal for the team. And the reasons we were there, we were supposed to get the team promoted. We Couldn't actually do that that year. And that year became quite difficult because we're being paid late and all these different things. And actually the environment was making me increasingly unhappy. And a bit like you said, I was kind of a little bit withdrawn, I was a lot less patient, I was kind of angry. And at the end I. Similarly to what you said, I, I could see guys who had played till they were 35 or you know, older even and then they were going to have to confront this kind of big problem. And I knew that I wasn't going to become a great, you know, I turned 30 that year and I was like, well, you know, I'm kind of getting towards the back, the back end of a career now. And I was, I don't want to cling in there and do something kind of, that's not going to improve. So I kind of made the team, didn't want me to hang around anyway. But I mean I made a kind of positive decision for myself to be like, right, I'm getting myself out of here and I'll figure it out. And I remember driving home with all my stuff back to England and I just felt, when I got nearby I felt this incredible sense of relief because I'd made a good decision to get out of there. And then, you know, this next journey, like you said, where that was something sort of separate, where that's got its own kind of difficulties. But actually you're right, like I was like, well, I can try this for a couple of months and see what I learned from that and then I'll go. And I did sort of things I'd never have done previously. Went to kind of meet up events and things like that with people I'd never met, you know, and sort of reached out to people I didn't know. And I used the whole thing as a kind of, right, what are you kind of bad at? And just try and do those things and get over yourself a little bit.

Interesting. Okay.

Yeah, yeah, I think that's, that's something that I'd not previously been maybe that proactive or that, that kind of objective about myself. I don't think I'd managed that before. So I spent, I like to think now there are definitely things that are scary when you, when you don't know how to do them. But then a bit like you said, when you're backed into a corner, you usually manage to figure something out and the other thing and you know, to take it back to sport, which it can be a bit reductive to always Talk about sport. But it's so revealing with certain things. By getting a kind of sports deal, you've done something difficult once, so, you know, why wouldn't you be able to do something else that was difficult? It's the context that's different, and it's the. It's that change of context that. That is very. That is like, sort of worrying. But actually, once you kind of think, right, okay, what are my personal characteristics? Then you might be able to move them around rather than just keep them in the same sort of sphere of endeavor.

I suppose that's a really good point. And one of the things I say with my clients is I think people have momentum developing their entire lives. They just don't recognize it was. So, you know, the way the brain is wired. We're so geared to finding out what's wrong or the dangers or. Because our brain's designed to help us survive, not make us happy. Yeah. And so. But we all have these things where if we actually took stock of. And I've, you know, I've got to the point where I'm sad enough, where I have a list on my phone where, you know, every day I might write down something that. That, you know, I've achieved or done or whatever so that, you know, some people, they can. That moment where they actually accomplished something where it's like, wow, that's. That's actually something I've done. Whereas, you know, five, six years later, they would never remember or acknowledge that thing. And it's great that some, you know, for example, exactly what you're saying is you can look back on something and use that as a. Your reference point in terms of. That's. That's the. That's the standard I can set myself. That's what I'm capable of and everything else. And I think that's really important for more people to do, especially people listening is, what have you already done? That actually means that you're more than capable of, you know, going where you want to go. I'm sure that people listening have conquered some things that you and I, you know, will have both in our personal lives and work in work context. You know, had to conquer some really tough stuff. And there'll be other people listening who may well have gone through, I don't know, 10 times worse or whatever. And because they've gone through that, actually, rather than say, you know, oh, my life has got to go, you know, go downhill from here, is actually the fact that you just simply get through that is a fantastic reference point of what else you're capable of. So I think that's a. I think that's a fantastic point. And so what I wanted to touch on, moving on to that kind of transition period was for me, we were just talking before, this was me personally, that transition from a kind of sporting background where, you know, the world is, you know, it feels like the world is put in place for you to a certain extent. I want to say the world, I don't want to oversimplify it. What I mean by that is, you know, your day to day structure for your life is kind of, you know, you're told, let's go in this straight line. You just need to go in this straight line. And this is how you're gonna get the best out yourself. And you have all these people around you to support you through all the pressures. And you have a, you know, you have a pool of people around you who you can bond with because they're going through exactly the same things, both in terms of sporting, but their thought process, but you know how they feel. You're all going through this thing together, so you have this constant support network and then sport ends and that's gone. And so that can feel like a very lonely time for people. And whether it's in a sporting environment or anything else, so many of us can go through a period where all of a sudden the structures around us or the networks, people around us change. And all of a sudden you feel more isolated than usual. And so, Ben, just in terms of how that transition felt, and you've spoke a little bit about it, how you became really proactive to just, you know, do meetups and all of these other things, you know, and I've done meetups and that it can feel like a really strange thing to do, but it's that. But it's a great thing to put yourself out there. Absolutely. And you have to explore and meet these new people. So you've told us in terms of the kind of the physical actions you've done, which are great, that people can also adopt. But how did you. Did you feel more isolated? And if so, how did that isolation feel? Was that quite daunting or how did that all.

Phil, I think that's. That's definitely the big challenge is the. You're exactly right when you, when you walk in in the morning to your sports team, depending on your popularity in the group, obviously, but, you know, it really is.

And you do get mugged off in a sporting environment as well, plenty of times. So it's not all, trust me, Anyone listening? By the way, it is not all sunshine and rainbows.

It's kind of, it is a bit high fives all round jokes and like you said, even between, you know, when you're doing something boring like sitting on a bus, you're still sat there with, you know, a load of your mates and yeah, that's definitely one of the big challenges is the isolation when you're not doing that. And I think the way I work now, I work, I mean, I kind of work on my own and I'm part of different groups where we work remotely. So I do. It's easy to spend, you know, it's easy to spend the whole day and not kind of same. Yeah, yeah, yes. It's definitely made me a little bit better at reaching out to my kind of. I obviously had all my friends and my university and school friends in particular who kind of. They've largely been back in England. So while I was in France they were people I kept up with. But you know, I didn't necessarily see them sure that often. So it's been great. I've been able to, you know, kind of spend a bit more time and give them a bit more of my energy, I suppose, which has been great and it's kind of brought us closer together and they've all been a great help. So they were really, really good. And you know, my family been able to be around for a lot more of the kind of touch points in everyone's lives. So, you know, if people are getting married or you know, your parents 60th and things like that, you know, the things I've been able to be about for which I wasn't able to be previously. So I've kind of leaned on those relationships a bit. But there's definitely still in terms of the work, the day to day work environment that's the big miss. It's not necessarily that you're playing sport, it's that you walk in.

Yeah, yeah, I totally agree with that. And not to make all of this sound more. What's the right word? Worse than it is. You know, it's tough and it's, it's challenging but it's, it's one of those challenges that you can learn to come. There are much harder things in life and everything else but for many people, you know, that kind of isolation or feeling of loneliness is really tough. And one of my favorite film quotes is the world is full of lonely people waiting to make, waiting for someone to make the first move. And exactly what you said and absolutely the same with me, you know, when, you know, with my own business is, you know, you have people that you consult and do this and do that. But there are stretches or opportunities or whatever where people think if you have your own thing or your own business or whatever from the outside, people go, oh, I'd love to have my own thing that I'm passionate about and do my own thing. But with those benefits comes like a whole different environment where actually it's, you know, this is your mission and it's your passion. But sometimes there are points and periods where you're doing that alone. And so sometimes that can be challenging. And exactly what you said, which is that extent where you kind of got to the point where because you had more free time, that also opened up the opportunity for you to reach out to more people and help those relationships with different people flourish again. And so I don't know about you, for me that's been one of the best bits about not doing sport anymore is actually those relationships with people. Yes, you don't have that kind of thing where you're forced together with a load of people who do the same thing and you get on with them. But maybe the people closest to you, those relationships flourish even more. So I don't know if you found that in the few years whether some of your closest people, those relationships have grown even more. If that's been the case.

I think that's definitely been the case. There was a period where I worked a little bit with a career coach who was really helpful. That was kind of relatively soon after I came back from France, maybe a few months, three or four months afterwards. And that was a kind of a bit of a test because that was something unusual for me and it was kind of made me feel quite vulnerable. But actually my confidence grew throughout that. And there was a point where I asked her, I was like, oh, have you got anything in the kind of, in terms of being able to approach my friends and get me to sort of ask them some questions about me? So it was quite difficult because it was a sort of self examination thing from my actual mates. But it was really, it was really good. And it was that what's interesting is where they, you know, where they agreed and where they didn't necessarily agree, but it, it's helps us be a lot more upfront, you know, with my sort of close male friends in particular, be a lot more upfront if we're feeling a certain way about something. And it makes us a bit less able to kind of discuss things that previously might have Kind of brushed over, I suppose.

I think that's a great point. I've got, you know, some of my friends. I really need to maybe think about what they might say if I ever ask them, but that would be terrifying. But no, in all seriousness, absolutely. I think as you, as you get older, I think self reflection is an important thing. Thing. It's, it's important not to over analyze, of course, but it's important to know, you know, how you're seen. But again, it's that whole thing of, you know, accepting where you are so that you can know what the next step is. And I'm glad the career coaching thing was useful for you. I think it is helpful to. I have people who kind of maverick. I know people or have worked with people who are mavericks and they very much want to say that they've done it all by themselves. I remember a number of years back, someone saying to me, you know, what, what are the things you've achieved? What have you done in your life? And I listed these things off and I was a bit sort of maverick in terms of, you know, this was me. Like I did. It's like I would accept all my failures, but I would say, you know, if I'm going to accept all my failures, then I want to accept some credit for the success as well. But someone pointed out to me, you know, I listed off all these things and they said, okay, so in all these stories, you clearly didn't do one, one of these things by yourself. Now I wasn't, in no way did I talk about this stuff arrogantly or anything like that. I also probably listed off about 10 times more failures in my life than successes, as we all do. But they had a very good point in not one of those things that I actually managed to do or accomplish that thing on my own and being able to consult with someone and, and have someone at your side or, you know, someone that you can act as a team with, you know, or get that analysis from is so important to seeing the bigger picture because, and if it's, you know, some people, it needs to be a market research thing. And so many people, you think, we think we understand the world, but we only obviously understand the world through our own eyes. And we all know that intellectually, but actually in action and in practice, that's not necessarily how we always live all the time. And it is helpful to have people around us who, that you can trust and that, you know, yes, they might, they might mug you off and whatever else, but, but also once you get through all of that crap and that barrier. Exactly what you said, which is great to hear, which is that it fosters more meaningful conversations and that obviously builds closer and closer ties. I'm really glad to hear that's happened with you, Ben. And so, you know, the kind of. Just the last bits I wanted to touch on in this conversation is, you know, you obviously had the interest and the passion. I know what it's like to write a book. I know how bloody difficult it is and how difficult is to get motivated and for people to rip it apart and to edit it and then to rip it apart again and everything else. So it's a great achievement. And, you know, but you obviously felt the inspiration to do this. And so I wanted to ask, you know, when you had the idea of writing this, what was your. What was your main aim.

Is? It's a funny one because it's one of those things where a bit like you said, there's a distance between the sort of theory and the practice where you know that actually you should sort of be experimenting and not putting any pressure on yourself. But actually then when you think of a big goal, it does seem sort of big and terrifying. You never stop. But I actually did. I was kind of experimenting with writing a bit in a very kind of low stakes way. And the longer I did it, and I was writing things around rugby and it was partly to help me make sense of my time there, partly because I thought there was a sort of perspective that wasn't present in how professional was covered. A bit like we're talking about the beginning.

Yeah.

And as I kind of went, I kind of developed the concept, developed the idea and partly through a couple of other books that I, that I liked. And I actually bumped into a girl from school who, you know, nice girl, not someone I knew particularly well. And she was kind of. She'd been ghostwriting and she was on her way to the book launch of that book and she actually had a small advance to do her own book, which is kind of a history about John of Gaunt. And I thought, oh, that's interesting. So I said, do you want to get a coffee? And we went and had coffee. I kind of outlined my idea, which was basically to go through my kind of experience in France, but to use that as a jumping off point to talk about bigger topics than myself.

Yeah, sure.

And she was, oh, I think it's a great idea. And she gave me loads of help. She was like, this is this, you know, you should speak to this person and this person. And I was like, right, well, you know, let's go. And I just thought, why not? I was like, it's going to be a great. It did so many things for me. It's done, you know, helped me kind of develop confidence as a writer. It helped me explain and kind of celebrate and say farewell to my rugby a little bit. I thought it was. I do think it's an underserved perspective because a bit like we said, you know, the top end gets represented and actually this kind of middle, lower tier doesn't necessarily.

So interesting.

I felt like there was a few untold stories there and I could be a little bit more honest in a way than somebody at the top level who might have a whole series of sort of other relationships contingent on, you know, not saying things.

Yeah.

And the other thing was, professionally, it would kind of be a good. Yeah, like a kind of proof of. Proof of concept, proof of ability. So there was so many things that it. That it was doing and it was really fun. I had so much fun doing the first draft. I actually did it really, really quite quickly, over three or four months maybe. Really hammered it out and it just was. It felt like real pleasure. Yeah, you're right. The editing kind of bit was. Was a bit. Bit more painful when you get your kind of draft back and it's covered in sort of red, you know.

Correct.

Yeah, yeah. Even that. Then, you know, like, that was. That was a fun process as well. So actually it's been great.

And that's. I can relate to a lot of that, actually. I think I started writing that going through a tough period off the back of what I was gonna do. And actually, funnily enough, I basically wrote it off the back of retiring from football. So I don't. I don't know why there's some sort of connection there. But. But not that my books on a similar topic to yours, but. But yeah, it was. I found it quite cathartic and I found it just a route, you know, a routine thing which allowed you to kind of. And I write down lots of stuff. And I really got the inspiration from writing that book where obviously, you know, you're typing it, but actually getting it all down on paper and getting out your head is such an amazing thing to do. And people listening, you know, whatever it is, in terms of writing down things that you're grateful for or anything else, or if you think you're writing, going as far as writing a book or just even writing a blog or getting some ideas down or whatever to get them out your head onto a piece of paper and actually seeing them on a piece of paper. You know, people don't pay for what you know, people don't pay for what you understand, they pay for when they feel understood. And so if you're, if you've been in a position and someone else who's in the same position reads your thing and you get them because you've been in the same position, people will really, really value what you do. Whatever it is that you, you know, whatever knowledge or content or anything you have, even if it's super niche and you think no one else cares about it or you. I was going to name something, but I don't want offense, you know, a particular interest or topic and say that's boring or anything like that, so won't do it. But whatever it is, there will be people who, you know, who want help in that area. Absolutely. And you've obviously found that. And you know, that transition in sport is. You'll know because I'm sure you'll have consulted but also spoken to lots of people. It's such a massive thing, you know, in the whole mental health space as well. Such a massive, massive thing. A real achievement to be able to do that. And I think you're right. It's, you know, when you feel sort of one removed in terms of, you know, give yourself and feel like you have the freedom and license to say what you really think, what you really think is actually what everyone else is really thinking. And it's not kind of edited in terms of a censorship or anything like that to protect some sort of brand or whatever. So that's a really, really amazing thing. And so, you know, if people, Ben, if people are listening and interested and, you know, they want to know more about how to deal with transition, uncertainty and presumably, you know, some people in a sporting context. But I'm sure it's going to help plenty of people outside of that space or people who just want to, you know, they want to see the inside of what a professional athlete goes through. Where can people get your book?

It's on Amazon, so there's Kindle and print versions. It's called Fringes, Life on the Edge of Professional Rugby and yeah, go and get it. Tell me what you think. I'd be interested to hear.

Excellent. And I definitely. But, Ben, firstly, I really enjoyed this conversation and first, I love sports, so it's very easy for me to enjoy listening to athletes. But I think when, you know, for a lot of athletes, they kind of see their sport, you know, their sporting career, it comes to an end, and they think that's all their sporting career was. And I think people like you, who are reflective in a sporting career and actually use that, all of that experience and information to serve another generation of people so that they can transit, so that they can find that whole experience a hell of a lot easier. I think it takes a real special person to do that sort of thing, to commit to that sort of thing. So, again, I congratulate you for doing that, and I wish you all the best going forward. But, yeah, a really great conversation. And I guess the last thing I wanted to ask is, what do you think's next for you?

Yeah, so, I mean, I'm doing the various bits of client work. One of those clients is a company called Life After Professional Sports, which helps deal with that transition for athletes. I think I'd like to do another piece of work that won't be as long, but to really take that topic on and discuss it a bit, like we have now, but in some. In some detail. I think that's probably the next thing I'd like to do. And then beyond that, then, yeah, I'm feeling my way forward.

Just like everyone else. Eggs?

Yeah.

All right, well, Ben, thank you very much, and I wish you all the best going forward, but thank you very much for your time.

Thanks for having me.

Thank you.