Honest Conversation with Dad | Ep 100

People seem to forget if you change today, today will change your life. To keep up with the latest episodes, make sure you subscribe to the Self Belief Chief podcast Facebook group. Download your favourite ones and this episode is brought to you by ODD Health. The easy way to speak to a nutritionist Take control of your health and your body. With the support of registered nutritionists online through the Odd Health app, you can even take a free questionnaire so that they can understand more about your goals to help with your first consultation. If you want to know more on the selfbeliefchief.com podcast page underneath the episodes, you'll be able to find more information. Okay, so we have reached episode 100 and it's this point that I want to say thank you for the people who've tuned in and listened, but I also want to do something little bit different. And a while back my dad, who frequently helps me compile questions for this podcast, much more interesting questions than I can come up with, often that provide some of the really helpful, useful conversations and just really, really good insight. And I thought it'd be good to have a conversation with him as someone who does do a lot of prep for these conversations, but also someone who, who is very much a hero of mine as well. And I wanted to be able to introduce him, someone who was looking forward to being on this podcast. I think as it came around sooner and sooner his perspective on that might have changed. But it's very good to have him on. I'm very happy that he has come on. So firstly to welcome you and for you to say hello to everyone.

Hi there, David, or should I call you son? David will do. And I don't know if you want to call me dad or Ron, but I don't mind. And also I might be a hero of yours, but I've admired you for quite a long time as well, David.

So we've got all the awkward pleasantries out the way, but thank you. Thank you very much. So firstly, I'll just talk about some of the things that I know that you have a deep interest in and I think lots of people listening, you just find those things will stumble across those things which you have a real passion for, which you don't really, you know, cultivate or ask to be passionate about those things. They just kind of find you. And one of the things that I have an interest in, but you've got a thousand times greater knowledge and interest in, is space. And I wanted to talk to you a bit about space in terms of what is the kind of core fascination around that and very much if it aligns to why I find it interesting. But I know you love the idea of space and exploration. I know you've also spoken about the chance to leave us as a family when the time comes to be able to fly into space. In all seriousness, where did your fascination and interest in space start?

I guess I've always had a fascination with science generally and. But what happened in 1960s as I was growing up was the Apollo moon landings. And they really, they were, they were headline news everywhere in the world and you couldn't escape all the detail in newspapers. So if you're at all interested in science or engineering, then you had acres and acres of, in those days, newsprint or TV to just wallow in. And I just found it fascinating. So that would be one entry point, the other entry point. My parents bought me one of those sort of big picture books on astronomy. I don't know how old I was. I think I must been about five at the time. And I just loved leafing through that and seeing all these things which seemed quite exotic to me. They were only hand drawn images in those days because they weren't very good pictures of planets and other stuff in those days. So these were hand drawn images of the planets, of the sun, of the solar system, of the universe and the galaxies in between. I found that fascinating too. And then as I think as I grew older, the idea that actually space exploration was quite a fascinating idea and I got into science fiction, so I enjoyed that immensely. And then as I got a bit older still and started to realize quite what the moon landings had achieved from a, from a sort of the point of view that what the astronauts must, must have been like as people or the engineering that went into it, I just loved all that. So I know I've bored a lot of my friends and family silly talking about it, so I'll stop at that point in case I'm doing the same to your listeners.

No, I, Well, I think it's just nice when most people find it interesting when you get to listen to someone who is passionate about something. And I know you've, you've sort of flown planes and I know maybe at some point in your life you felt as if, oh, I wonder if I could travel into space. So when you think about the thought about the actual idea or the possibility of actually being able to do that, what is it exactly? Amongst all the reasons why you're interested, what exactly, exactly is it about that that you would love to experience? Why Would the experience be so amazing for you?

Yeah. Well, whilst I think about how to answer that question, I'll tell a story that you remember me telling about just after your mum, Sarah and I were married and we were sitting in bed one Sunday morning and reading the newspapers and there's a full page advert in the paper saying, do you want to go into space? And I. And I looking at this thinking, well, yeah, I do, because I've always wanted, like the idea of that. And this advert said, do you have a science degree? Well, I did. And it said, do you speak a foreign language? Well, I did. And I said, do you have a pilot's license? And at that time I did. So I thought, well, I'm halfway into space already. How much you know, who else is going to be so qualified as me? I didn't share this excitement with Sarah at the time. I just sat on it for three days seriously contemplating applying for this, for this. And I've told that story many times over the years and I decided not to apply for it. And the reasons I gave when I tell the story is because when we got married, that wasn't what Sarah signed up for, that her husband, who might disappear off to Russia for two years training and then might go into space. As the years have gone on, I realized that. So that some of the deeper reasons were probably my own cowardice and my recognition of my own. Of my own the likelihood that I might not quite be the successful candidate amongst the thousands that applied. But the reason I thought about it seriously for three days. Coming back to your question, I really cannot think of anything more exciting as a view than looking back on the Earth and appreciating your place in the universe. And there's two things going on looking back on Earth. There's how small we are, but also how much man has imprisoned himself on Earth. Not necessarily in bad ways. That's not an environmental point I'm making, it's just when you see all those cities beneath you or the small towns and villages lit up and you see ships on the oceans, it just must be mesmerizing. And when you hear astronauts talking about looking at the Earth, they cannot tear themselves away from the window. So there's that aspect of it. I just cannot think of a better view. Yes, we have beautiful views on Earth and I've been fortunate to see a few of them, but I just can't think anything more compelling. And then when you face the other way and look into the blackness of space and the pin pricks of Light. Because when we see them through the Earth's atmosphere from the ground, they're all a bit. They're all a bit made a bit blurry by the atmosphere. But when you're in the. In space, they're pinpricks in a complete and in an otherwise complete blackness. And then seeing the sun rise over the rim of the Earth. So I know it just filled with wonderment and the fact that somehow if I were there, I'd be living some of this boyhood fascination with science fiction stories. I guess that's the. That's what would compel me to want to go into space. Apart from being a coward, though, you.

Mentioned about the darkness or the blackness and seeing the pin pricks amongst all of that. And how easy is that for you in moments coming away from space where the world does seem darker or the picture's not very clear for you to still see those, as you described, pin pricks. But I guess those points of beauty or points of, you know, kind of amazement or whatever you and I, I think in that regard can be quite different. And you might well have a better ability at seeing those at points than I do. How, how easy do you find it to see those moments when through darker times that we have in life to see those sort of, I guess, pinpricks?

So the question is sort of moved from the actuality of looking at space into sort of metaphorical. A metaphorical analogy. I think that. I think that I've. I guess a couple of things come to mind. I'm a half cup full sort of person. There are some friends of mine, very old friends of mine who know me very well, who think I'm a bit of a naive optimist at times. But I don't mind if that's the truth of it. I quite like the living in my fantasy of a naively optimistic world. I am a half cupful sort of person. I see the. I tend to see the possibilities so in things rather than the negativities. And I guess I also. I don't think I've ever had to face a desperate adversity. So how would I react to that? I don't know. And I wouldn't wish to be dishonest enough to claim that I do. But there's been a few sort of bumps along the way. And so when those bumps arrive, I think I see them as problems that have to be addressed rather than. So my first response is, how are we going to fix this? I guess. And the third thing I think of is I Compartmentalize quite easily most of the time. So if something comes up, It sits in its own space in my mind and doesn't osmotically infect other areas in my mind. And again, I don't make a pretense about that. When something bad happens, it does hang over you, but it doesn't. But it's still compartmentalized to a large extent in terms of sort of functioning and trying to fix the problem as I see it. So I guess, guess that's how I keep the. And if you want to see those compartments as the. For me, that sort of. They're pinpricks as well actually. So it's not just the good things in life, but the adversities are also opportunities to fix things and maybe fix them even better than they were before.

Yeah, I get that. I can understand that. And to touch back on the space, I only wanted to bring that up because it seemed to an apt analogy.

Thanks for that curveball there.

So with some of the work being done in the innovation in and around space and exploration, how important do you see all of that? Because we go back to the 60s and 70s where sort of talking from a kind of US communist rivalry or US Russia rivalry and they need to get to the moon and lots of different meanings and reasons or needs to visit space for the first time. Moving to the present day, how important do you see space exploration and how critical if it is, do you think it is? Do you think we should be investing more or less?

You're sort of asking the wrong person there. Because I start off from as a point of principle, we've all got our principles that sort of guide, guide our thoughts about stuff generally. So I respect those that say we've got enough problems on Earth that we need to spend money on. Let's spend the money that we are, in their words, wasting on space, on the problems we have on Earth. And I respect that as a point of view, but I don't, as a point of principle, come from there. As a point of principle, I come from the point of view this is a very big wide world. There are a ton of opportunities and a ton of problems. And there are currently seven and a half billion people on the planet who might be able to solve some of the problems or take some of the opportunities we've got. If we don't give them free reign through research, through exploration to do whatever it is that floats their boat, then we are constraining humanity in some way. And I guess examples don't spring to the top of Mind very quickly. But there are so many examples of some basic research in some in basic sciences, physics, chemistry, biology and even mathematics, where the scientists who are doing it and whenever 100 years ago, 200 years ago, did not know what application that science would be put to. But lo and behold, decades or centuries later, something that benefits humanity in ways that were inconceivable but vast take place. So it seems to me completely wrong to tell Jeff Bezos that he can't spend his billions exploring space and in his words, finding a way to escape planet Earth for when mankind needs a second home. It would be wrong to do that and it'd be wrong to curtail anything. So that's how I approach your question.

Okay, so very on the fence. No, I can understand. I was trying to rope you into some sort of juicy tabloid headline here.

Yeah, yeah. I tell you to be very interested in what I've got to say. I realize that.

So to move on to one of your other interests, something that I will maybe not beat you again at ever is chess, which I know is everyone's most exciting game. But. But you're obviously good at it. And I think lots of people, you.

Know, they, they have, will think I'm a nerd by now. Space and chess. Yeah.

Gotta be honest. So we'll talk about your surfing and everything else that you do.

Yeah, the cool stuff. Yeah. Okay. So.

You like to collect chess sets. I haven't noticed you. Actually. I can't think of the last time you got a new chess set.

Have you got a new chess set recently? No, not for quite a while now. I think one about once a year.

And you. And you just set that way.

I think at one point they got to maybe two or three a year. But the thing about chess sets. Well, the thing about chess is, apart from being perceived as a. As a nerdy game for certain types of people. And I do get that. I do get that. But I can assure your thousands of listeners that not all chess players are like that. And for me, it's a terrific game because it pitched two people in open combat. Mental, mental combat. And it is a war. And when you're playing it, you want to kill the other person. You absolutely want to defeat them. It becomes very competitive and very, very visceral feeling if you, if you play competitive chess that you really want to beat the other person. But it's an odd game because you can see everything that's on the board. The only thing you can't see is what the other person might be thinking. But when they deploy their troops. And that's how you got to think about these chess pieces as troops being deployed by general. You can see more so than in general, in real life, exactly what the troop deployment is. So it's a really interesting battle of wits, which I'm not actually very good at because I make careless mistakes.

Am I just really terrible?

No, no, of course not. And. But there I'm not good enough to. To lay claim to being a good chess player. So chess sets for me. So if chess is a. Is emblematic of a battle of wills between two armies, then when you look around the world at how chess sets have been fashioned by different cultures and different societies at different times, most of them, of course, are depicting the battles of the times. So you've got the Greeks versus the Romans or the Spanish versus the Arabs or whatever. So to see all of these characters from history or from different parts of the planet represent it is for me just sort of quite fun. And I never collected particularly valuable sets. They come in all different shapes, sizes, materials. One of my proudest, most pleasing chess sets is one from a doll's house. It cost me six pounds, however many decades ago, and it's about one and a half. Sorry, about 4cm square board. The pieces are tiny, but I just love it. I just love it. So, yeah, that is because it just represents many cultures many, many different times in history. And this battle of wills between. In a fight to the death.

The reason I brought up the chess was.

Oh, yeah, okay.

The reason I brought up the chess.

Was the pinpricks of life in a chess match.

Is. I always find it quite amazing, considering how long those games go on in terms of focus and concentration. There are players that, you know, not necessarily. It's the case with yourself, but they play. You know, a game can last hours and hours and hours for you in terms of that mental concentration and that. And that level of focus and not switching off, which I think most people have a. You know, it's tough to be in a place where, if it does last a considerable amount of time, when you've got that kind of mental stress is, how do you keep up that mental concentration? How do you not kind of switch off or take a back step? Because when you play, you can't really do that, can you? Because you forget what's going on or you step out of the place and the other person's still in that place. And I think for a lot of people, that makes a lot of sense, even if they don't necessarily do it. Or understand it through the. Through chess. But how do you keep yourself. I know you often say I made this stupid mistake, or, oh, I would have won all of these games if I just hadn't done this.

So obviously you're being a bit generous there, because what you usually say to me not in public is that when I come back complaining about, made a stupid mistake, you say, yeah, you say that every single time. So, yeah, that's true.

Okay, next question. Instead, you're right. Your focus is.

Well, it is. So I sit there and my mind wanders a bit too easily. The competitive matches I play, and they take about three hours. World Championship matches, I think they're about six hours long. I might be wrong about that. It does take a lot of concentration with the moment. The moments I love if in chess is when you're so lost in the match that your mind doesn't drift and you. I'm not at the level where this is true, but I guess when I'm in those moments, I can sort of glimpse what I read that world champions say that as if they're moving in a different plane and seeing patterns on the chessboard and in front of their eyes. They don't really think in terms of, if I do this, then this happens, and if I do this, then this happens. They see patterns evolving and almost like clouds moving in and out of focus. And so when you're really lost in a game, I'm nowhere near what that description I just gave. But you're so absorbed in it. That's quite, quite good fun. But my mind otherwise does wander too easily. So I. I'm not sure how I can better answer your question, but let me ask you a question, because there are some games where you've beaten me despite your proclaimed.

Well, I can remember when I was five and I didn't realize until I was a teenager that obviously I hadn't won. Well, because you'd let me win. Unless you're about to tell me otherwise. And it's really embarrassing, but I can't think of the other times.

On several occasions you've brought this up and I've posed the question, unless you let me win. And I've enigmatically left that floating in the air on the couple of occasions where it's happened. I think there weren't when you were five. And there's another time a bit older. We haven't played chess that often. And the couple of times where you beat me, I didn't let you in. So go. David.

I just realised this is a podcast I'm celebrating in the background, and no one can actually know what's on. Going, going on. It's just silence. Oh, finally, truth is out. So why did you not tell me?

Pride. Pride, yeah. Pure and simple.

Well, this podcast has been worth it. Now, what are you most looking forward to outside of chess? Everything else at this point in your life, what are you looking for forward to the most?

Well.

Dramatic pauses aren't quite as effective on podcasts.

Yeah, they are. They. And. And the cold sweat that I've come out in isn't visible on a podcast either. I think I'd have to say the fairly saccharine. Give the fairly saccharine answer to see you and Catherine, your sister, just continually moving forward in your lives and making successes, hopefully, and having.

Because we're not successes yet.

Having more successes. And I said moving forward, and that's as in having more successes. And so as saccharine as that might seem, that's. That's the most important thing that I would look forward to. Sorry, not a more interesting answer. In many ways.

I sort of would have judged you if it was a different answer, to be honest. I guess now that you've said that.

That'S why I paused for so long, because that was the first answer to go to my mind.

You paused and then you only came up with that.

Well, because that was the only answer. So I was pausing, thinking, is there a different answer? But also, do I dare give this answer is a better answer to give them that sacronet. That's why there was a long pause. I'm sorry.

It's okay.

You can edit it out.

It's fine. Oh, you want us to do? Well, Presuming that the answer might be along those lines, what is it like parenting my sister and I?

Oh, it's a joy.

Yeah.

Okay.

What are the differences in terms of parenting that you have to provide or utilise with each of us?

Can I tell your listeners that the reason you're asking this question is because you're determined to discover which one of the you do is favorite?

No, we know they don't. Well, they. We know which one's the favorite. And I've. I've made peace with that. So I've dealt with that. Fine. Now it's made me who I am. So gone through those hardships. Are there different. Different parenting styles? Are there different ways that you, with Catherine and I, that you thought actually got to approach. Approach them differently because they are different? It might not be even a conscious thing, but.

Well, I can't I'm not so obviously for myself as opposed to parenting in general. And I guess the answer is yes and no. I'll start with the no. The attitude that both Sarah and I take, I think we both agree is to. Is to encourage even from a young age, a very young age, to be self sufficient, to support when needed and to. And to ensure that boundaries are understood and applied. By boundaries, I don't just mean sort of in the normal discipline sense, of course I do mean that, but not that I think either as a rigid disciplinarians, but their boundaries are important for kids, but also boundaries not just of a personal nature, but a societal nature. So we have responsibilities to society, to other people. And for me that sort of fits under the heading of boundaries. So the commonality is encouragement, support and boundaries underpinned of course with huge ladles of love. But where the yes comes in, so that's the no bit, no differences. Where the yes comes in is you sort of soon discover that your children are different and when they behave differently, they need to be treated differently. So but that different treatment is within the context that I've just described of encouragement, support and boundaries. And you just have to measure things a little bit differently. So apply things a bit differently in different cases. So yeah, Catherine tended to be more compliant with instruction and on occasions you were a bit less compliant at the first point of asking. And so at times there were differences and we had to encourage you to see our point of view on things.

But as you now know, it turned out I was right in those occasions.

Of course you were. But. But if I can, if I can. Well, if you. Have you done with that question? Because if I can, if I can move it on. Because what you part of the joy of parenting is what you learn, it's not what you teach. And so I've learnt from watching you both. I've learned from some of the things you do. In your case, how the stuff you're doing with self belief chief, and the courage and the challenges that takes. And I'm not just saying this, I've learned from watching that because on the few occasions I've thought of doing something entrepreneurial, one of the reasons I thought I'm side against it is because I don't have that spirit in me. So you learn stuff from your children, you learn, you learn that everyone's different. And as a parent at some point you discover this takes a few years, you discover that everyone's different. And the idea that not I ever thought this consciously at all, I Emphasize that. But I realized that subconsciously I was assuming that you and maybe she, but you mainly, maybe, as a male, should be a bit like me. And eventually it dawned on me, with a bit of a nudge from Sarah one occasion that I remember saying that they don't have to be like you. Absolutely true. At that point, you have to sort of realize that there's a point to step in as a parent, for instance, when the child's about to cross the road or run into the road, you sort of step in. But a lot of times we have to step back. Even when they're very young, let them fall over and hurt themselves is the only way they discover that, not to try and run where they shouldn't run. So the stepping in and stepping back bit, and the older the children get, the more you have to step back. And that's a journey of discovery as well. And then learning that as you and Catherine get older, that you've got our back as much as we have yours, that's. That's been a great, great joy as well. So, yeah, I think we end up learning more from you than you ever learned, or at least as much from you guys as you learn from us. So have I neatly sidestep the. How you different?

I thought it was a really good answer. I hadn't thought of it in those. In those terms before or necessarily would have assumed that you thought of it in those terms. So when you talk about lessons learned, what did you learn from Catherine? This is hard. This is taking longer. That's a quick answer for me.

What did I learn? Hang on. What did I say I learned from.

You about, you know, you learn in terms of the entrepreneurial side of.

Oh, I see. Okay. All right. From Catherine. That's a good question. Let me think about that one. I hadn't prepared for that one from Catherine. I think both of you have got a measure of me and a measure of Mum. And hopefully none of us are perfect. Hopefully the measures of the good bits of us are greater than the measures of the bad bits of us. And Catherine. Has maintained very good contact with friends from whatever era. And the way she does that I can only marvel at, because I'm not built like that. Sarah's built more like that. But I think. I don't know if Sarah would agree. I think she would. Catherine sort of beats us both at that. She does it very well. She does it in a very genuine way. And I actually. So it's not something I've learned from her because I wish I could Learn it from her. I'm just not built that way.

But yeah, I'd agree with that. I think that's definitely a great quality that she has and so.

We had.

To give her something. So there's the lessons that suggest that you. Or, you know, not lessons necessarily, but you observe people, you know, a different way of living to a certain extent, and new ways of going about things. But aside from us, in terms of lessons that you've learned over the course of your life and actually what was. What were relevant and what were impactful and what you noticed really made a difference for you, at whatever stage, can you think of particular lessons that you feel that maybe you're not learned in a particular moment, but say you talked about the joy of being able to learn from us. What are the things you've learned from other people?

Oh, blimey, that's a very long list and I don't know that I would know where to start. I can absolutely identify with things that my parents taught me. For my mother, she's a brilliant cook, so I've inherited a love, if not an ability of cooking that she has, but also her active love of family. The. Not just the immediate family. She gets so many visits and calls from so many nieces and nephews and that's because she's reaping as she sowed in life. She gave love and hospitality so frequently to so many. And again, a bit like we were talking about Catherine, I have a bit of that gene, but nowhere near as much as my mum does for my dad. I just learnt so much about. Well, he was a role model for me in terms of how to be a man. I don't mean that as a man's man, I just mean that as a male, as a father, and the practical bent he has to fix anything. We did take a TV apart once and never put it back together again. But the. The learning of. The curiosity to. You can try to fix anything and then the ability to fix some things comes from him. But then in the world of work where I've had so many mentors, normally not explicit mentors, but people I just look to and thought, I'm learning from you. So there's a long list of those, not just as a name check, but I would throw in my sisters, they from whom the importance of family is also reinforced, and they both have their talents that I observe and learn from. And then I probably add two more to this. My longest and oldest friend. I've got two very old friends and they're both very Very good friends, but one in particular who is much longer in the Array ship than the other one. He and I spent ages just looking at the meaning of life as we were teenagers and that put me in great stead. Whether we actually worked out the meaning of life and solved any things is obviously in great doubt, but that was very formative. And then finally your mum, with whom we had a bit just past 37 years of marriage yesterday and I learned from her most days. Most days too much to mention. You asked what did I learn? I think so try and think of something specific that I learned from. From Sarah. Amongst the many, many things, A very practical and strong minded compassion. If something needs saying or doing, she'll say it or do it, but do it in a very practical, considered and compassionate way. And I respect that. A.

And there's always the balance between, you know, you want to learn and digest information and observe from everyone. I think lots of people who listen to this podcast are also in a place where they're constantly wanting to learn, but they also want to know, well, actually, when do I learn and when and observe from other people and try and maybe try and attempt things in a different way and when do I trust my instinct? So I wanted to ask you for you all the things that you pick up from other people and things that you mentioned which you could wish you do better, and you sort of had a background, a number of different industries as well as a consultant industry in which you know you're sharing valuable information back and forth. There comes a point where you've kind of got to back yourself or trust your instinct or know when to close off the noise from everyone else so you can do what feels more instinctively right to you. I'll ask a slightly easier version of what I was going to ask, which is in terms of your instinct, does that ever feel questionable to you? Does that feel something that you feel like you've always been able to reliably trust that instinct or have there been occasions where you find that to be more challenging?

You'll know I can get into the detail and think through a problem for a very long time. And that's not an instinctual, that's not indicative of instinctive behavior. But other times, many other times, and of course, even when you go to detail, you have instincts about things that you bring into play. And I do, I do by and large trust my instinct. But I like to think I trust it in a measured sort of way. It's a questioning sort of way. I recognise. I like to think that Some of the time, at least, I can spot if something's an instinct rather than an observable fact and then ask myself questions about the instinct. But of course, there are times when you've got to act on instinct because you have to act more quickly and I do tend to trust that. I can certainly think of occasions where I've regretted the instinctive reaction, but hopefully. But I don't. But more often than not, that's not been the case. But there have been a few times when, when regret has replaced the instinct, you regret things said or done and you can't undo that. And sometimes, sometimes I do. If I wake up in the night and think about stuff, on some occasions, I'll run through a few of the things I wish I hadn't done and I'll run through a few of the people I wish I could apologize to. Even if I'd apologised to him at the time, I'd still say some regrets. But no, most of the time I do trust my instinct and it served me fairly well. But I do go back to what I started off by saying. I do tend to go into the detail about stuff. So I like to think that my instincts are grounded in rationalism, even if the rationalism is subconscious.

Of course, the most important reason why I ask about instinct is because your mum are highly competitive. And so to trust your instinct in those key battles and those key moments when you play your Bananagram or whatever other game, cool games you guys are playing these days is you're going to be able to trust that instinct and be super focused and yeah, the real battles of the week, this thing, it's going to set up that whole week and for one person it's going to be a great week and for the other person it's more disappointment. Who is more competitive between the two of you?

I just want to take a bit of an aside here because I'm enjoying this conversation. I don't know if you are and I certainly don't know if the people who can listen to it if they get to this point, because it's obviously quite sort of personal in a sense, but it does lead me to wonder whether you're actually not going to use as a podcast. This is just a way of trying to ask me some questions that I might not otherwise want to answer under the pretext it's for the benefit of your podcast audience.

Yes.

I thought so. Who's the more competitive? Well, I would say she is and she would say I am.

Who wins more often.

That Depends on what we play.

Who takes win? Who's a better winner?

Ooh, probably more. I don't think either of us are bad losers just to get that in very quickly, but probably more often than not, she's the sight. She's the marginally better winner, but I don't know. Actually, I don't know. I think about the same. I don't know. I do a bit more sledging than she does, so I'm factoring that into my answer.

Yeah, I mean that's the one relationship where you should be able to trash talk, isn't it? Who's the better loser.

Now? Again, I think I'd say a draw on that one too. We're competitive but fairly gracious. Most of the time I do sledge more than she does.

What's the. What's. What's your favorite game that you both play?

Currently? Currently we're in a Bananagram episode. A period. As you. As you know, previously there's been other things but Bananagram at the moment, as exciting as that sounds. Yeah, great game, great game.

No, it's not.

Is this podcast sponsored by Banana?

It's sponsored by Banana. It's a boring, terrible game and it's fairly mind numbing. Maybe it's just because I'm no good at it as well, but. So next question. Next quick fire question, which isn't coming to me quickly enough.

But yeah, that's the quick fire questions. Quick fire answers need quick fire questions.

Yes, they do. I mean, do you have a. Do you have a quick fire question for me?

Who's your favourite parent draw? Who's your favorite sister Draw?

Kath. Ty. My one sister's a draw.

Is this conversation going along the lines of you hoped it would do?

It's doing just fine. What's the best thing about mum?

Oh, too many things to lose eyes, I think. I appreciate. I've already mentioned one thing which I appreciate. I'll mention one other thing I appreciate which is that she is a very good and loyal friend. I'll mention one other thing which is that she is. One thing that first attracted me to Sarah is her ability. How lovely she looked in whatever situation she was in. And I don't mean that just from a physical point of view. So whether it's putting silly faces on the beach or dressing up to go somewhere or where she just looked lovely in every situation and was just lovely company in every situation.

So you also have been writing various books over the. Over the years.

Finally. Bloody hell. We're trying to get to this Promotional part of the podcast.

So which is your favorite book that you have been working on? Very different. We've all got multiple reads of them, so we all have our opinions. Yeah, we all say draw as well.

If I can make this public apology to my family. They have had to. To read a few too many manuscripts a few too many times, I'm sure. Much appreciated.

Thank you. Thank you. And I'll say thank you on behalf.

One of the reasons I got them to read one of the manuscripts so much was none of them were actually interested in the topic I was writing about. And I knew that they would ask me lots of questions that I had not managed to express to which I've not managed to express the answer clearly in the. In the text. So there's a. The first thing I wrote was a story for Catherine, but it became a story for Catherine and you, David. But mainly it was Catherine's story about George the Giant and in those politically incorrect days, Mickey Midget since renamed George the Giant, and Minnie Mickey. There's a story about two people, two children, one small, one. One too small, one too large, outcast by their friends, who discover each other and become friends for life. And that was a bedtime story made up by yours truly and then for Catherine's 30th birthday, turned into a book that was on Amazon, if you wish to buy that for your children, nieces, nephews, friends, kids, etc. At a very modest price. And I'm kidding with the promotional bit here, that's me just trying to play act someone on Graham Norton Show. The second thing, apart from some small bits of writing, I then had this idea for some small bit of writing which generally were like, I'd have an idea of something, but I knew I couldn't write. So I just write it down in a few pages or a few words. And then just for my own benefit, I enjoyed. Enjoyed that process, but knew I couldn't otherwise write. And then I had this idea for a sort of speculative fiction book. One of my sisters said, well, that'd make a great book. I said, I don't do books. I can't write dialogue and I don't do plot. Anyway, that became a book which is not yet out. And then I've had a lifelong returning to space a bit. I've had a lifelong interest in the topic of relativity. And I had probably failed to understand it.

That's all we have time for, thank.

You, in any meaningful way. I'd failed countless times to understand it. And then eventually. So, yeah, I used to find any one book completely unsatisfactory at answering the questions that you tried to grapple with when you. When you read about relativity. But the Internet is a marvelous thing and you can read a bit here and a bit. Then finally there are enough different jigsaw pieces from different sources that I managed to piece something together and that's it. That became a book called Relativity Explained, the purpose of which. So I didn't start off with intention of writing a book, but I did start off with the intention of writing down the notes of this understanding I'd finally achieved so that I would be able to go back and remember what I'd previously understood. And at one point I looked at these notes and thought, maybe this would be good for other people as well. So that one is available on Amazon. Relatives Explained by Ron Hallman thank you for the plug. End of. End of podcast.

No, it takes a lot of work and effort to write something and as many different things as you've looked at as well. And the relativity. Well, I know what it's like to have your work teased apart or scrutinized and all of that. And the fact that I've done that on one occasion, you've done that on multiple occasions, is an enjoyable slash, you know, difficult experience. At the same time, I think what.

You did with your book is Thinking Lies, also available in all good bookstores, is a far braver thing to do than I did. And.

Oh, mine is. Yeah, mine's much better. Yeah, buy mine. Buy mine before. Buy all of them together.

It is a good read. Yeah.

Yeah. I want to finish up with what is going to be one of those questions that will probably make you think a little bit. You mentioned it will.

Yes, I know the question's coming.

No, you mentioned earlier that sort of in teenage years we're talking about you and your friend and sort of the meaning of life and not really knowing what that necessarily looks like, as none of us really do ever work out, but having spent some time, it sounds like, trying to work out what that is and maybe also, you know, working, getting to know me and my insightful ways. And obviously I've brought so, so much to your life. What. What do you think the meaning is at least?

Sorry, pauses don't work well on podcasts, so I better speak whilst I'm thinking. I have a very simplistic attitude, which I know you and I have talked about before, David, so whether this is quite the answer you're looking for, I don't know. But we can start with this and I guess I've learned more recently through reading a bit of philosophy that there's maybe a little bit of existentialism creeping in, sort of that 19, mid-1900s philosophy. But I discovered at some point that I was a bit more ambitious than I realized I was. But then I also realized I wasn't quite as ambitious as all that. So there are some people who want to be CEO, but I never wanted to do that. So I found myself grappling with this question. I am ambitious on the one hand, but I'm not very ambitious. So what does that add up to? So I didn't need to have a little bit of a think about things at that point and I came up with this fairly simple sounding philosophy. So is it a meaning of life? I don't know. I don't know that I would be quite so grandiose as to suggest that it is, but it sort of has carried me through, which is that you spend a third of your life, roughly speaking, In your personal life, you spend about a third of your life at work and you spend a third of your life sleeping. Not necessarily equal thirds, just three parts. And if you're not happy in all of those, and happiness means obviously sleeping well, a healthy personal life, not just in body but in mind, and a career that fulfills you in whatever way it needs to. Because for each of us that's different then if you can say yes to three of those things most of the time. So some of the time, if you say yes to at least two of them much of the time, then you're probably somewhere in a fairly useful place. Now you can factor into that whatever it is that fulfills you. So if you are somebody who has a, for instance, quite a broad outward looking view, you can do all the charitable stuff you want to do within that personal life, or indeed within the world, work, life, part of it. So that sort of simple model is not. It's not meant to be a selfish model, it's meant to be a model that whatever sort of floats your own boat. If sleeping well means six hours sleep or 10 hours sleep, that's what works for you. That's been my simple version of it and I guess I should underline it with and try and do some good in the world whilst you're at it.

Yeah, I've always liked that philosophy that you have. I've tried to adopt that more and more.

So.

Is there any more that you feel the need to say, did we.

Talk about my book yet?

Yeah, we get, we get that bit short okay.

I'd like to say that I have enjoyed your podcasts.

Yeah. But that's because you've come up with a lot of the questions.

No, that's not true. And I think that you. And now I won't say more on that line. So I take it as a sort of an. An honor, which I appreciate, to be part of your 100th podcast.

Yeah, I assumed. I assumed that would be the case. The fact that you felt the need to say that, it's almost, you know, just.

Yeah.

Just safely presume that all guests and yes, for you to be the hundredth, I guess, has some sort of special meaning.

But no, when this goes viral, will I get some sort of share of profit?

Yes. And I will let you know at some point what that is.

Thank you very much.

Thank you very much for joining me.

It's been a real pleasure. More so than I had expected and not as much as I had feared. Thank you very much.