Introducing: Byron Morrison "Maybe You Should Give Up"

Foreign. Welcome to the Self Belief Chief podcast. You're here with David Holman. Now today we're going to be speaking to Byron Morrison, who is, well, extraordinarily interesting person. When I do the stalking, as you know from all of my guests on this podcast, you know that I like to do a bit of stalking. The stuff that Byron's managed to accomplish, managed to do who he's worked with in terms of 15 different countries that he's worked with, CEOs and business leaders. So he's got a very interesting perspective. He's also got a new book coming out which we're going to talk about later in the show. But we're going to make sure we provide you some real, real value. And I'm very excited to talk with Byron. So, Byron, very nice to meet you. And I wanted to get straight into a question which is a lot of people we work with, they struggle with decision making. And I always say to people that very commonly people spend 90% of the time deciding and 10% trying to make it the right decision. They get so caught up in trying to make the decision rather than actually trying to make a good decision once they've taken action. So spending 10% deciding and 90% making it the right action. Why do you feel that people really, really struggle with their decision making?

So I think it's a really great question. Like, for me, one of the biggest things I've seen that trips people up when it comes to making decisions is they focus too much on the immediate problem because they're always pulled into, okay, what's going to happen if I make this choice? The fear associated with it or the risk involved was, if you look at the most effective CEOs and leaders, they make their decisions based on where they want to get to, not just on where they are. They're always thinking five steps ahead. Because in life the biggest payoffs often require short term sacrifices and pain. And this is why a lot of people become stuck, because they're making their decisions based on what they're just seeing as the immediate problem. So if you're just looking at, okay, if I do this, what am I going to lose? Or the discomfort you have to go through, you're going to talk yourself out of it. Whereas when you start mapping it out five steps ahead and you look at, okay, what are the consequences of me doing this, good and bad, then it becomes so much easier to follow through. An example I always use of this is Elon Musk. Because regardless of how you feel about him, on a Personal level, he is constantly ridiculed in the media. If you go back throughout his career, people always say, oh, he's making such terrible decisions and all of these things going on. But then a couple of years later they talk about how incredible a leader is and there's big thinking. And the reason why that happens is he thinks five steps ahead, he's willing to take that short term loss, whether it's financially or faith or people's opinions, because he knows the payoffs that's going to come as a result of it.

And so one of the, I think that's really interesting because a lot of people I speak to, I talk about the different parts of the brain and you have your sort of, I guess to really simplify it, you have your animal brain and your human brain and your animal brain looks for instant gratification and instant relief from pain. And your human brain has a different reward system which is short, medium, long term, sustainability, consistency. So we all have that need for a sense of instant gratification. So when you're working with people, Byron, as much as they want to plan out those steps, and yes, that will provide some consistency, sustainability and probably bigger success as well, and more accurate to what they want to do, how do you help people appease that element that needs instant gratification? Because we all need it. So how do you help people with that part where they commit to the longer term approach and how does that other part of their brain still get fed with that instant gratification?

So it comes down to being clear on what you actually want and why you're doing what you're doing. Like, I'd love to share a quick framework with you. What I use my clients to really make these decisions. Like there's something that's known as the order of consequences. And basically every decision and choice that you make has a bigger long term consequence, especially when you repeat it over time. And most people live their life making decisions based on first order consequences that in the now satisfaction or instant gratification. And I'll give you a really easy to follow health example. Let's say there's a guy called Gary and after a long day he wants a bar of chocolate because it makes him feel good. Now if that was the full story, it would be a positive because Gary has his chocolate bar and he's happy. But if we look at the order of consequences that come as a result of that, consequence number two could be that Gary, who struggled with his weight most of his life, continues gaining weight. Consequence number three is he Struggles with his confidence. He doesn't put himself out there in his career. Confidence number. The consequence number four is he doesn't get the success that he wants. Consequence number five is he dies young, never setting the right example for his family. Now that's no doubt going to the extreme, but it proves the point because every decision that you make today, even if it seems inconsequential, can have huge ramifications if you keep making it. And this is why you've always got to stop and ask yourself, like, what is the consequence of me taking or not taking this action? And it's really looking at the bigger picture and using that to guide you in what you do. Because it doesn't always have to be negatives. It could also be like the consequence of me having this difficult conversation today means I can get something fixed in my team. It means I can fix a toxic situation. It means we can start making progress on this project. It's not always negative. Sometimes you need that to face the discomfort and in order to get the long term payoff. And that's why you've really got to start looking at decisions, not just what's going on in the moment, because if you're just pulled into what's in front of you, you're going to talk yourself out of it because it's always going to be uncomfortable or something you don't want to do or something you don't want to give up on. So that's where you have to take that step back and be like, what's actually going on here? What are the ramifications, good and bad, of me actually going through with this?

I love that. And the consequence thing, when I work with people, I sort of get them to do that. I do it slightly different way, which is looking at, with this current, say, habit, you know, slightly different to what you're talking about. But what have been the consequences in the past? What are the consequences in the present? What would they be in the future? But I love, I love that order of consequences thing because it's a very direct straight line that you're drawing there. I would love to ask, you gave the chocolate bar example. I would love to know for you, Byron, what's the thing for you where, what's your chocolate bar, right? What's your thing where you go, okay, most other things I can build, I can recognize the consequences. I know that's not good for me. What's the thing that's slightly tempting for you, which I'm sure we all have. I want one of Those for example for me is for food is pizza. Right. No one could ever tell me not to eat pizza. I will, I will love it forever. Right. What's your thing where you go, even if you've got that order of consequences, you're still able to put it in place but it's more challenging for you because you love all things. That's a really good thing.

So I'm a big cake person.

Yeah.

Like I absolutely love a good piece of cake and my girlfriend and I don't really drink so we have a tendency some weekends we go on cake crawls where we'll just like go visit a new location and we'll go see seeking out dessert and cakes. So that's something that I enjoy. But for me the consequence, because I'm really into fitness so I train six days a week. I spend a lot of time working on my health. So that's why I've made a decision that I only do that on Saturdays. So it's not something I feel guilty about because it's built into my lifestyle. But I'm also aware that while I'd love to do it every single day, the long term consequences, I wouldn't be able to stay in the same level of shape that I. So therefore it's just, I'm all about balance and just making a conscious decision of enjoying life. But again it comes down to you making the bigger decision of what's more important to you. So for me stay in shape and being healthy is. Which is why I limit it to certain periods of the week.

Yeah. And do you, you and your partner, do you like the same type of cake? Are you very different cake people? What would you say?

It's very similar. We normally get variety and then see what we enjoy. But yeah, we're very quite on the same page, which is always helpful.

Okay. For all the people listening. I'm sure all of you are trying to think right now. Yeah. What is the thing I just, I really need to think about more considerably because you know, we're talking about some trivial examples in terms of food and a bit of this and a bit of that. But Byron is saying that there's some, you know, bigger things in life with some very real serious consequences. Byron, I'd love to, you know, before.

We go on, can I throw one more example in here because I've got a real like example. I think a lot of people like this.

I was just about to ask. Yeah, I was about to ask you for an example actually. That's perfect.

So I've got a client I'm working with at the moment and she's been crushing it in a role. She's been doing really well, but she's been finding that by 3pm her energy was just slumping, she was just really struggling to focus. And we broke down what was happening. And one of her evening routine things that she enjoys doing is her and her husband, like just watching tv. Nothing wrong with that. After a long day, that's how they relax. But they had found that recently they got into a trend that they were binge watching a show and they kept being like, should we watch one more episode? So she'd do that, wouldn't get enough sleep, and then she was tired. So going back to the order of consequence mentality, she didn't have to map it all out. It was just in the moment. When she was faced with something, she just asked herself, like, what's the consequence of me doing this? And then she would know that, okay, it means she's going to get to sleep later, she's going to be tired the next day and she's going to be less productive. So then she can make a decision in the moment, is it worth it? And in the times that she wants to do it, great, but then you have to pay, be willing to live with the consequences. But for her, for the most part, that meant she put a boundary in place and be like, no, we're not watching another one. Because my productivity tomorrow is more important. It doesn't always have to be. You break it down and look at all of the big decisions in the future. Sometimes it's just pulling into the moment, being like, is me doing this right now worth what I'm going to have to give up on as a result?

I find this so one of the, one of the reasons I got into all the work that I do now and for people listening, I may or may not have told this story. When I was about 12 years old, a family member of mine started dating someone that was by society standards, extremely overweight and was already having various heart issues and already had had various surgeries talking about that order of consequences thing. So we, I was at a very young age. We've got people saying, you know, everyone comes around for dinner and saying, do you want to have a bit more? And have a bit more, have a bit more. And I sort of sat there thinking, this feels a bit odd that people are offering, you know, second or third servings when we know that this person's already struggling. And in my head I was thinking that surely this is not a good thing. The example you gave about five minutes or so ago where you kept breaking it down and maybe the 6th, 8, 12, 15 step is serious health consequences for this person. It was almost step two or three. This is really, you know, very close proximity and you know, a child with, with various learning difficulties who I met once, lovely, lovely child. And I was thinking that surely that's his leverage point. Surely that's the reason he's going to turn all of this around because it's in terms of proximity. It's step two is he might not be here. Step one was, okay, I get to enjoy this thing, but step two is I might not be here. About four or five months later, he did pass away from a very sudden heart attack. And it made me think, how is that one not the leverage point for him, that his son, who was 8, really needed him but he couldn't bring himself to do it and that the steps was, you know, very close proximity in terms of consequences. He was right there almost staring him in the face and yet still couldn't see it or do something about it. Would you be able to give an example, Byron, of when sometimes the consequences are have been all discretion. Obviously in plays are more serious. And perhaps it was the risk was in closer proximity to the thing, the habit they were doing. Maybe they had a really awful habit and they'd already got them in such a bad way that there wasn't much wiggle room. Maybe when it's six consequences away, people can go, oh, it's so far away. I don't mean maybe I don't do anything about it is an example where it's, you know, very, very risky and something had to change quickly.

Yeah, like one that comes to mind is there was a business owner I was working with who he came to me at a point where business really wasn't going well. Like they'd gone from growing and scaling to now they were barely hitting their revenue targets. And we were break breaking down what was happening. And we found that he was averaging on a week working 60 plus hours. But in that time he probably spent about 40 hours of it, maybe more just procrastinating. Yeah, like he just had this. Because they had so many failures and setbacks, he was just stuck in his own head. And for them, a big part of how they were generating revenue was through reaching out to potential customers. And he had got so just caught in this analysis paralysis that he had just been avoiding it. He'd been focusing on busy work tasks that don't matter and he just had so much fear paralyzing him. And for him, it was a case if he didn't actually get out of his own way, that he was probably going to have to shut the business down. There was a very real risk that he wasn't able to meet payroll and he'd have to just close things down. So for him, it was trying to look at, okay, why has he got that fear? Why is he so afraid of rejection and failure? And we had to flip in the other direction. We had to make the pain of not taking action more painful than the pain of what was holding him back. Because that's the thing about fear. We always focus on what could go wrong. And one of my favorite ways to reframe it is to really look at, okay, what's going to happen if you don't do it is when you look at the bigger picture and you fast forward to the end of your life and the things that you're going to regret not doing, or if you look at, okay, what's going to happen if you don't take these actions, you can't provide for your family, like, what are you going to miss out on? Suddenly it becomes more painful not to do it. And this is where it's all about tipping the scale in the other direction. You have to empower yourself in a way that your reasons to actually follow through become bigger than your reasons not to do so.

Absolutely, I totally agree with that. And, and on the point you were just making with this particular person, with procrastination, you've worked with so many different CEOs, so many different leaders. I'd love to get your perspective on if we, you know, very simply and arbitrarily said the three things that you think CEOs struggle with most from your experience, why they come to you, why they speak with you. Business leaders, CEOs, for people listening, so they can really get a perspective of what that world actually looks like. You know, lots of people aren't business leaders or CEOs, but maybe they aspire to be so. But they also want to know what are the pain points? What are the struggles? Can I learn how to deal with that now, 10 years earlier, before I get into that place and have the frameworks in place? So what three things would you say business leaders, CEOs struggle most in your. In your experience?

So I say the first one is getting out of the weeds. Because the problem is when you start a business, you have to be involved in everything. But as the business grows and scales, what most People don't realize is the role actually becomes far more honed in. But a lot of the people I work with, they're at a point where they're growing, but they're still involved in the stuff they did at the beginning. So this is why they're stretched thin and overwhelmed. Because you're either going to be able to do a few things really well, or many things mediocre or badly. And this is why anyone listening to this who wants to become a leader, you really need to figure out what's your zone of genius, what are the things that can only be done by you, and then build the right team around that, because if you don't, you're just going to become the bottleneck in the business. And this is why I see time and time again with the people I work with, like they're not focusing on the things that actually matter because they're still stuck in the trenches and that's holding them back. The second one is getting out of a reactive headspace. Because what anyone listening to us needs to understand is when you're in a leadership position, most of your days is all about firefighting. You're constantly solving other people's problems, dealing with never ending demands. It's a huge amount of stress. And this is why a lot of people are constantly in this reactive state where they have a challenge, they deal with it. Challenge, deal with it. But the problem with that is when you're in that heightened state, you can't make the right decisions or effectively lead or show up at your best. And this is why you need to understand that there's a big difference between a reaction and, and a response. A reaction is impulsive, it's driven by emotion, whereas a response is calculated and controlled. And that's why you have to develop the ability to slow down. You need to be able to see a problem, force yourself to stop, process what's happening, understand what's going on, and from that, choose how you respond to it. That gives you a whole new level of empowerment. And this is something I think every single person, whether it's a CEO or someone starting their career, needs to learn to do. Because that's how you develop that mindset to really believe in yourself and become unstoppable. And then the third big challenge is just dealing with the pressure. There's so many CEOs that if you go on their LinkedIn, you just look, they're like they've got it all together. Like you put them up on this pedestal, it's all awards and Smiles. And then I get them on application calls, and they just start breaking down. Like, I had a guy a few weeks ago, like, I'd seen all this stuff online. I was like, this guy's absolutely crushing it. He got on a call with me and he was just like, I don't know if I can do it anymore. He's like, it's taken everything out of me to get to this point. And he's like, we're about to double in size again. I just don't know if I've got it. And the problem is, when you're in that position, everyone look, put you up on a pedestal so you could take this belief within yourself that you have to put on a facade. You try and convince everyone else that your internal state is the same as your external success when it isn't. And that's incredibly lonely and massively stressful. And I see this is why so many CEOs become burnt out. So, three very different problems, but all of them are related to the way that someone thinks and navigates the issues in front of them.

And when people use the expression of getting out of our getting out of our heads, right. I often say with people, sometimes you just have to get out of your head and help someone instead. Right? You have to. Yes, you have to do the internal work, but sometimes you just have to get out of your head and help someone instead. But using that phrase of getting out of your head is something that we all say. I use a different example, which is a lot of people tell people to believe in themselves. Great. Okay. If someone ever says that to you, believe in yourself, ask them how, and they'll look at you like they're trying to solve a Rubik's Cube. Because we throw away these phrases or sentences, but we don't actually know what to do with it or how to do it. How do you believe in yourself more? Even as cliche as that sounds, and what it does is it creates pressure for the other person going, oh, so everyone knows how to believe in themselves. Everyone must know because. Because we use that phrase so flippantly. I'm the only one that lacks confidence because everyone just says it. And I think getting out of your head is also one of those things that people use quite readily as well. You just have to get out of your own head. But how. And I know that that's a lot of the work that you do with people is you help people kind of get out of their own head so that they can kind of see the bigger picture here. And the three examples you gave were versions of all of that as well. I'd love to know how you help people get out of their own head.

So a lot of it is slowing down because part of the reason why people get stuck in their own head is they're overthinking things. Going back to the confidence example that you just gave, part of the reason why people struggle with the confidence is because they're putting this pressure on themselves to have it all figured out straight away, where there's nothing in your life that you're fully confident right now that you were great at immediately. But because we have this instant gratification mentality, we've pressured ourselves. If we don't get right straight away, we're a failure. And part of the problem with this and where people get stuck in their own head is they're focusing too far into the future. They're worried about step number five when they haven't even done step number one. And this is why, for me, while it's great to have this big vision and goal that you're aiming for, you need to break it down and be like, okay, what's the action I need to take today? What is the one thing I need to do to move forward? Because suddenly then it becomes manageable. Because a lot of the time when you're building up in your head, you're like, oh, this is terrifying. That's when you just get frozen in place. Whereas if it's a case, okay, I just need to go do this one thing. That's how you're going to feel more confident in doing and you're going to start making progress. So a lot of it is just understanding why you're stuck in your own head in the first place. Is it something you're afraid of? Is there a fear coming up? If so, you need to figure out what actually is that. Is it a case you're worrying too much about what's going to happen rather than what you need to do? So it's just really taking the time to slow down and be like, okay, what's actually stopping me here? And based on that, using that awareness to figure out what you need to do to move forward.

So you're talking about outcome and output. So trying to help people understand what their output better. We all focus on outcomes and we pay so little time focusing. What's the actual output of what we're doing? Those habits you're talking about, the things that we can control. I'm curious to get your perspective on how much do you think we can help people detach from outcomes. You can't do it completely because outcomes will always be important either to other people or to ourselves. But be able to provide, attach more to the output of what we're doing and find instant gratification from doing those things, doing it consistently, the things that we can control. How much do you think we can help people actually detach from being too invested in the outcome? Sometimes it's really important to be attached to the outcome, but sometimes we need to create some distance for people. How much do you think you're able to help people detach in that way or do you think it's not really possible?

I think it's fully possible, but it comes down to being intentional with what you're doing every single day. Because one of the biggest shortcomings I see in people is they're too focused on what they're trying to get to. They've built up in their mind their goal and the milestones and they're telling themselves like, once I reach that, everything will be amazing. Like we've all done this. We've told ourselves like once you hit that goal, that's when you'll be happy, you'll take more time off, you'll focus on your health. But isn't that what you said the time before and the time before that? And that's why as cheesy as it sounds like, happiness and success doesn't come from some result off in the future, far off in the future, and instead it comes from the journey. And the journey takes place in the present. And that's why if you want to feel more in control of what you're doing, you have to learn to slow down. Because if you're constantly judging your progress by metrics or results, which massively important, but it's only one piece of the puzzle. Because not every single day are you going to be able to make massive progress. Not every single day are you going to be able to hit your biggest ever revenue. And if you're only using that to judge whether or not you're successful, you're always going to feel like you're falling short. And that's why for me, it's so important to balance the macro of where you're trying to get to with the micro of what you need to do each day. And that's why one of my favorite questions to use is going into the day like what do I need to move forward today for today to be a success and future pacing to 5pm and then looking backwards. And the reason Why I love that is you can use that context to then figure out, okay, what you actually need to prioritize and get done. And you can then also use that as a guiding point of the things you need to actually move forward. Because a lot of the time it's not going to be big goals you're going to hit daily. But the compounding effect of that is what's actually going to lead you to where you want to be. So 100% possible. But you need to find that balance.

I love that you use that question. I use a slight variation, which is what would make this an extraordinary day? And I find that extremely useful because. And each of the sessions, anyone who's listening, who's worked with me would know that I asked them at the beginning of a session what would make this an extraordinary conversation when people start to actually think about either. Your question via my question that actually it's not big complicated things, it's not strenuous, massive targets. Actually it's very, very simple things that provide immense amounts of pleasure. But we haven't attached a reward system to it or we've become taking it for granted or we think, oh, but actually that's, you know, I've got to do that a hundred times to reach this thing. Or I could just stare at the thing that gets me excited. I'm really curious of your experience on this. I'm sure lots of people are part of that. The outcome and output thing is if people focus on outcomes, if they get stuck on not being able to achieve a result, then they often create a new shiny thing over here to stare at a new compelling future and then start going off to that and then they ever get stuck there, so they create the new shiny thing. They're always jumping from different projects or different goals, never really committing to any of them. Are you finding people at the level that you work with people at that people still do that quite frequently, that they kind of get that shiny object thing in their mind or does that. Do you find people that when they have a level of expertise, that kind of problem dissipates?

Anyway, I'd say if anything becomes worse, worse, because when you're more successful, you've got more capital behind you and people also view you as successful, so they come to you with more opportunities. So you're constantly every single day going to be presented with new ideas, new avenues you could go down, new things you could be investing, whether that's time or energy or focus into. So that's where you really have to be stricter with yourself as to what you actually put your attention into. I was talking to a client about this yesterday because they've, with some of the products they've gotten their business, they're starting to scale. They're already at kind of nine figures. They're about to break through to kind of that ten figure mark. And his focus needs to be just on that. But there's another avenue that he's seeing a lot of opportunity in and he's been, I've challenged him over the last few weeks. Yes, explore it, but be very strict with how much time you're putting into because you don't want to sabotage what you're currently doing at the expense of this new opportunity. And he's found that over the last few days, as he's dived into it, that he's going to have to build it from the ground up and it's going to take far more work than he's realized. And that's why for him, I had to say to him, like, look, this is a great opportunity. However, there is a ton of great opportunities out there and you don't want to get yourself into a mentality of convincing yourself that you have to go forward with this because if you do, then you're going to fall into shiny objects. So you have to go through the lens of is this going to take me away from what's working and what I want to be doing? And if the answer is yes, do I feasibly have the time and bandwidth to do it? And if the answer is no, you'd be far better off saying no or coming back to it at a later date when you do have capacity. So you've got to hold yourself to the standard of re auditing what you're taking on and why.

So at that level, how much, I'm sure it's different for different people in different businesses. How much do you think people should be working on the business of today? And how much do you think people should be working on the business of tomorrow? What sort of balance or frequency, let's say in a month, what percentages do you think people should focus on those two things?

Honestly, it depends entirely on the business and the individual and also the impact they're trying to create. So that's why when I'm working with a client, what we do is we figure out, okay, where's their vision, where are they trying to get to, what are the tasks that are going to get them there? And then how much time, realistically do they need to allocate That a week to that at a week. And then we build up their routines and their schedules based on how to move that forward. Because I find one of the pitfalls that a lot of people get stuck in to if they focus too much on what's important that day, but they don't focus on what's actually going to get them to that next level. So it could be a case of someone needs 10 hours a week to focus on top level strategy or fundraising or whatever it is, then we need to build out what regular blocks for that to happen. But I don't think there is a particular percentage because it's going to be completely dependent on someone's vision and goals and priorities. And also as well as you start getting to that level and you can hire around it, then you can get yourself out of the day. Today you can be less of kind of working in the business and more working on it, which will then free you up to do it more. So I wouldn't want to be like, this is the percentage it needs to be because I wouldn't want to kind of skew someone towards thinking, oh, what they're doing is wrong or their mentality is not in the right place because it's going to be so situational dependent. But as you grow and scale, it is going to be more working on it rather than in it.

When I speak to people who speak as passionately as you do and have done as much as you've done as well, I'm always very aware that usually we're trying to fix a problem when we start out on this journey and do the stuff that you're doing to fix a problem that maybe we had first and then we find immense value from that and we think, oh, we can use some of this to help a lot of other people. So I'd love to hear your star. And what was the bit of friction, amount of infection? It might have been an intense amount of pleasure that you got from something. What was your start that made you think, yeah, this is, this is the direction I want to take and these are the people who I want to help.

Yeah. So it's actually a really interesting one because what I'm doing today I completely fell into, like if you go back over a decade ago when I first started my business, like after my dad's cancer, I went on this journey of transformation. I lost over 50 pounds, I wrote a best selling book on kind of health and wellness and I started a company working with people from around the world to get their health on track. And even though I was great at what I did on helping people in that realm, I was completely in over my head when it came to running a company. I'd never managed people. I didn't know how to deal with the field conversations. I didn't know how to manage the stress or the pressure or my time or anything else. And I found myself in a situation where I was completely overwhelmed and burnt out. I remember just looking at my calendar with this feeling of dread over the fire that I had to fight next. And I just got to a point that was just. My business was a mental and emotional drain. I remember just talking to my girlfriend, just being like, I don't know if I can do this anymore. And that, for me, was a turning point where I was like, you know what? I'd have to throw in the towel. I need to figure out how to actually turn this around. So I spent the next few years learning everything I could about mindset, psychology, managing people, dealing with pressure, everything else in between to figure out how to actually become an effective leader in my business. Naturally, I was working at the time with a lot of entrepreneurs and business owners on their health, and these conversations started coming up in it because that was the reason why they were burnt down, their energy was down. And I just started figuring out that actually I know how to coach people through this because this is what I've done myself. And then that really showed me that not only was that my superpower, it's what I love to do. So it was less of a pivot and more of an evolution of my business, going away from the health side of it and more to the CEO mindset and navigating problems and helping people become who they need to be to get to the next level, because that was the journey I went through. It was this evolution of myself, of stepping away from being an entrepreneur and Internet CEO to actually get the life that I wanted. So that was why I then wrote my next books and focused my business on helping people who were in similar positions. And when you went.

When you go through that evolution, how much of a picture did you have formed in your mind of what the future would look like? And did it look anything like the position you're in now?

It was completely different. Like, at the time, I had this big vision. I wanted to change the world when it came to health and wellness. And I went through this natural progression, and then my goals and vision changed along the way. The impact I want to make create today is still the same. Like I still going back to when I first started, I wanted to be an author. I wanted to help people around the world. I wanted to make this impact. But it's very much shifted in the realm that it's in. So that's why I always say to people, like, it's great to have a big vision and goal of what you want to get to, but always also give yourself permission to change, because what you want today may not be what you want in five years, and that's okay. But a lot of people, the reason why they get stuck is they. They force themselves. Like, that's what I wanted. I need to keep pushing forward. Even if they've got an incongruence within themselves or their circumstance or situational desires change, but they try to force it, and that's why they become unfulfilled. Like, you see it all the time in people. They've worked their entire life to be a lawyer or a doctor or to build this business, and even though they're massively unhappy, they don't change it because they're like, I've put in all the work, I need to just see it through. And that's, you know, a very dangerous mentality to get stuck in.

And for people listening who might be thinking, well, this is just related to. To business or just related to health, I. I work with a lot of people that come out of relationships and trying to sort of rebuild their confidence when they've gone through a divorce or a breakup or something like that. And as challenging as all of that is, as simple as what I'm about to say will sound to people. And yes, you can't just click your fingers and change it. They had a picture of what the future was, and now it's gone, and it's the one picture, and it couldn't be any other picture. And to the point you're making, which I totally agree with, is that I could paint 10 different pictures. We would take any of them. Right. And so, yes, you need to have some sort of vision in terms of, right, this is the direction I'm going to go in. But like you said about giving yourself permission is that as you're going that particular direction, there's actually probably 10 versions of that picture that you would be happy with. Now you can't stare at all 10 at 1, because you'll get a bit lost. But as you're going down that particular road. Absolutely, totally agree with you. That permission to go. Actually, there are lots of things that can open up. I find people having an immense amount of pain when they only have one vision of life and that's the only way it can be. And the other million pictures of how the future could look are all painful. And that just distorts your whole world when that happens. Whereas when we're younger, we're obviously a lot more playful and we get imaginative and we think about lots of different things. I always think playful is a good word for how to live life. Just for you in life, you've talked about the health side. You talked about working with business leaders and CEOs. Do you have a sort of a philosophy of how you think not people should live life? Should would be totally the wrong word of how you live life, of how you. I always use the word playful. I think that's a good place for me to be and I think it's a good value for me personally. Do you have a particular value or philosophy of how you live life that provides maybe a more even keel for you?

Yeah, for me it's all about just figuring out what's important to you on an individual level. Because one of the biggest things I learned after my dad's cancer and how much time I wasted watching from the sidelines was that I had spent so much of my life just holding back from going after what I wanted or I've been pulling to create in my career or other things going on and let that come at the expense of everything else. And that's why for me, it's great to have big goals and ambitions, but you also need to figure out what actually matters. There's amount of conversations I've had with people who incredibly successful, millions of pounds and dollars in the bank, these huge businesses, but they're miserable because in order to make it happen, it's come at the expense of everything else. And that's why I'm a huge advocate of you need to figure out what's truly important to you, what are the things that you want. And then you have to build your life around that. Because when it comes to work life balance, I find that so many people get it wrong because they always say to themselves, I hope I'm going to have time to go to the gym later or to make date night or whatever it is. And that's why the approach I always use myself and with clients is figure out those important things first. And then that goes in before anything else. You schedule that in the same way you would as a meeting with your most important client where unless the building's on fire, you're not going to cancel. And you start actually looking at okay what's the life with intention? And then you actually structure it. It goes back to having that macro picture where you don't just allow yourself to get pulled into the day today. And you're really thinking based on the life that you want to live and really prioritizing everything else accordingly. And that's going to be different for some people, and that's okay, but it's just like, can you go to bed at night knowing that you lived a life on your terms and the way that you wanted? And if so, then that's amazing. And if not, then how do you need to change that to make it happen?

And there's such a word you use, which I think some people kind of just think was an operative part of that sentence. Whereas you said schedule. It's just all the important things in life you schedule. So if you're not scheduling something, then you're placing no importance on it. And yet if we say what's, you know, most people, they'll arbitrarily or throw away, say, oh, health and relationships are the most important thing in life, but you don't schedule that stuff. And actually just simply scheduling things for people, just what it does in terms of our mind, it's a bit like a shopping list. Whatever the statistic is, when you have a shopping list, you're 90% more likely to buy what you enter the shop for. And having those things scheduled, you are 90% more likely in that ballpark to actually commit to those things. It's no longer about motivation. I always find that motivation isn't that helpful a thing. We tend to stick to commitments when we commit to doing something. You don't go, am I motivated to go to this event or party? You either make the commitment not to go or to go. And if you commit to go and then don't go, it creates intense pain. And actually when you make commitments to those things that we're talking about, those personal things and what's important, finding out what that is, then you're also more likely to stick to those things and then get a sense of satisfaction from that. Now you've got a book coming out, which is maybe you should give up. Which was a great start of the title, 7 Ways to get out of your own way and take control of your life. When people bring out a book, I'm always really interested to ask them, why now? Why was this the right time for this book to come out now?

So with maybe you should give up. The first thing is like, a lot of people hear it and they're like, I don't want to give up. Like, it's so counterintuitive. And that's why I chose to call it that. Because I found on my own journey there were so many things I was holding onto. Whether it was fears, comparing myself to others, like worrying about problems or beating myself up, there were the very things that were holding me back from living the life that I wanted. And that's why maybe you should give up. It's not about giving up on your goals and dreams. It's about giving up on everything that's stopping you from actually reaching them. And the reason for why now is over the last few years, I've been fortunate enough now to work with people in 15 different countries. I've had such a wide exposure to see what's actually holding people back from creating the success that they want. And then going through that, I figured out there's seven mental blocks that every single one of us is dealing with that's causing us to sabotage ourselves and cause us to get in our own way. And that was why I'd reached a point with. Based on my own journey and going through my own transformation and working with all these people, I wanted to pass on everything I'd learned. So the people who are struggling like I was, who knew that they're meant for so much more, could actually finally take control of the life that they want. So I got to a point, I was like, you know what? This is the message. This is why I want to share. And then this book is just really passing on everything that I know to help people actually get out of their own way.

Was there something when you were putting the book together that even with your experience, surprised you?

So I think one of the biggest areas that as we were building it out, it was just going through, okay, why do we actually prevent ourselves from being happy here? Because ultimately the book is about helping people get to a point where they're happy. Because if you're not happy, then like, nothing else is really worth it. So it's just really going through and looking at the case studies and the stories that I shared and my own journey. And it was just really interesting for me to go back to different periods of my life and why I was putting off the things that I was doing. Because when I was writing this book, I very much had in my mind, like the 23 year old version of me. I was like, what was he struggling with and why was he stuck at that point in his life and what would he have needed to hear to actually Turn it around. So a lot of the things that did surprise me was just going back to like being like, what was I thinking back then? Like, why was I actually holding myself back in those areas? So like, that was like a very like self awareness exercise for me. But it was just also great to see the own progress I've been through in my kind of life.

And when you were doing that exercise, is there anything that when you were 23, that back then you would have been steadfast, 100% certain. Absolutely is correct. That today you think is completely wrong.

So many things. Like, I think it's so fascinating that we all get these beliefs and mold of the world. And I think back then, part of it, I had a lot of these beliefs about what was possible. I remember when I first had the idea for my business, I had so many people tell me it wasn't going to happen. They're like, no one's ever going to pay for that. That's not going to work. I had one friend in particular was like, this is a stupid idea. And I told me all that stuff. And part of me was just like believing. I was like, am I just making a terrible decision here? But luckily I decided, you know what, I'm going to find out. And we wouldn't be talking today if I didn't decide to go all in on myself. So that's why I think it's like such a big thing of just you knowing what you're doing and why, and then blocking out all the beliefs and reasons why it can't be done.

I just find it, yeah. And I find it really interesting how even in shorter spaces of times than, you know, a decade or five years, just even year on year, just how much our perspective can change and just how much our brain changes things. When they, when look at eyewitness testimony and that type of stuff, they find that, you know, a year later what you're recalling is up to 75% different to what actually happened. And yet we're so, we can be so certain that things are the way they are rather than a perception of the way they are. And there's a quote which, how does it go if you tell a lie often enough and loud enough, it becomes the truth. And that was Adolf Hitler. I think we can all kind of be Hitler to ourselves in that type of way, just telling that type of lie. What, what would be a lie for you that appoints you. Well, you know that you told me one lie there which was, okay, maybe it can't be done, maybe this is stupid. Maybe I'm not meant for this. What's a very common lie that you see people tell?

So probably like a lie is kind of why they're kind of comparing themselves to others. Like a lot of us, the reason why we're not happy is we live in this bubble where we're constantly going on social media and we're seeing what everyone else is doing. Then we feel bad about our own lives and then we convince ourselves that we want things that we don't even want. And this is what I've seen. A lot of people, the reason why they're having that comparison trap is they haven't taken the time to fully internalize what they're doing. There's an example I give in the book of going back to my journey, of where I'd first started out. A lot of my friends were doing really well. They were advancing their careers, they were buying houses, they were settling down. And I remember for a period just feeling like I was failing. I was just like, compared to them, I'm so far behind. I was just telling myself this lie that I was just failing in life. And then I had to stop and remind myself that I didn't want what they wanted. I didn't want that career, I didn't want to be tied to a mortgage with kids. I wanted to travel the world and run my own business. But the reason why, even though I knew that's what I was aiming for, why I didn't feel it fully, is I hadn't taken the time to fully internalize it. I was still comparing myself to the standards and measurements that everyone else was doing. They were fully self imposed. No one else had told me that it was something I and a lie I was telling myself. Actually, so many people being guilty of this, they build up in their head this idea of what they feel like they should be doing and then they feel like they're bad that they're not further along or like life hasn't turned out the way they feel like it should. And that's why you really need to figure out what you actually want to do, why do you want to do it, and then get a tunnel vision over it. Because there's no timeline saying you should achieve X by certain period. All of that is just some expectation you're placing on yourself. It's just an expectation that's never going to lead to real happiness.

Before we get to the final question I want to ask you. So the book is maybe you should give up the seven ways to get out of your own way and take control of your life. And if you like the perception that Byron has, the thoughts, the ideas, and a lot of very practical advice which is extremely helpful for people to actually work out how to implement, I think life isn't about learning, it's about implementation. If you want to learn stuff, you can just go on Google. It's really a science to know how to implement things. I really appreciate you showing a lot of very practical ideas and methodology because I think for our listeners there's something they can get their hands on and that's very, very generous and very valuable. So thank you for that, Byron. So question I want to ask you to wrap this up is tell the story of two young boys growing up in poverty. And on a sign on a post it says, if you want to be a great leader, meet me at the beach. At 4am in the morning, two boys go down. An elderly woman walks over and says, are you here to be great leaders? And they say, yes. So she says to the first boy, I want you to walk as far down the beach as possible. So he starts walking and about two miles in, does pretty well. He says to her he's tired. He says, why are we doing this? You know, what's the point of this? And she goes, no, no, keep walking. And he says, but you haven't told me why we're doing this. What's the point of doing this? She said, keep walking. They get into an argument and he says, I'll screw this. I'm not doing this. He turns around, goes home. Woman goes to the second boy, are you ready to become a good lead? He sort of looks a bit sheepishly. He goes, yeah, okay. And he walks maybe a mile, not as far as the other boy, and collapses on a heap on the floor in exhaustion. He says, I don't know why we're doing this. I'm tired. And just what is. Why do I have to to do this? And she goes, no, I want you to keep going. And she draws a line in the sand in front of him and she goes, keep walking. He pulls himself up, he takes 10 more footsteps and then collapses in exhaustion again. And he says, what are we doing? What is the point? I can't walk as far as the other boy, so how can I become a great leader? She said, I don't care how far you walked. What I wanted to see is when I drew that line in the sand, when you're tired and exhausted, what footprints are you going to leave for others? Then that potentially is what will make you A great leader tell that long Windsor story is by way of saying that line in the sand when you feel tired, exhausted, you feel like you've given absolutely everything, Byron. And then you leave some more footsteps in the sand when you're at your absolute limits, but push your way through it. Those ten footsteps beyond that line, what are the footsteps? What are the footprints that you'd like to leave for other people when your life is said and done?

For me, it's all about, like, what impact did you create? I know a lot of people say they want to make an impact, and it's like a really fluffy answer. Like, for me, it's all about, like, how did I actually make a difference? How did I help people just get out of a situation where they're just living and they actually start feeling alive? Because if I go back to I said to you before, my own past, where I was stuck and I was watching from the sidelines, I had so many days where I knew there was meant to be so much more for life, but I was just so stuck in it that I was deeply unhappy. And that's why, if I can just help people finally actually get out of their own way and start not just living, but feeling alive, that, for me, is what really matters. It's like being able to go to bed at night. To me, like, you know, what the work I did and how I spent my time actually had a positive impact on people. It's inspired them to recognize that there's so much more to life. And I was actually talking recently with the PR company about this. Like, I told the guy who owned it my story and my journey and transformation. And he was like, that's cool, but I've heard more inspiring stories. I said to him, like, but that's the entire point. I'm like, I'm not one of those stories where you hear it and you're like, oh, wow, that's amazing. But I could never do that. Like, I was just a regular guy who was at a point in his life where he knew he was meant for something more and he made a decision to do something different about it. And that's why I believe anyone listening to this who knows they know their potential or wants something more, they can do it as well. Like, that's the whole point of this. It's just like recognizing, you know what, if you want to make a change in your life, you can do it, but it's about making a decision that you're going to put yourself out there and go for it at the end of the day, you're going to regret the things you don't do far more than the things that you do do. And it's just really pushing people to actually live the life they want rather.

Than hiding behind the excuse that that person is extraordinary and therefore it's not for me that actually something that we can do. That should have been the last question. The last question I really need to ask is when is your next cake crawl?

Probably Saturday.

Okay, well, enjoy your cake crawl and thank you very much for your time today, Byron.

Thanks for having me.