Introducing: Toxic Ambition with Angelic Williams (sponsor)

Foreign. Welcome to the Self Belief Chief podcast. You're here with David Holman. Today we're going to talk about a really interesting subject, something that I think I've definitely fallen foul of in the past. We'll talk about Toxic Ambition with Angelic Williams. Now, before we get into a question, there's a, there's a really interesting inspiration that we share in common. So when I was doing my research and today I noticed the quote you have about Robin Williams, that you're only one little spark. You're only given one little spark of madness. You mustn't lose it. But the way I created my business name is Self Belief Chief. I want to talk about self belief and confidence. But the way the name came about is one of my favorite films is Good Will Hunting. And there's the scene on the park bench where he's talking to Matt Damon and says, you can't just theoretically understand life, you have to live it, you have to learn it. And he said, look, if you don't want to work with me, you don't have to. You'll move, Chief. And that's how the name came about. So I just found it interesting and nice that that little bit of research, we found a common inspiration there. Do you remember the first time you heard that quote? The first time that came about and sort of, wow, that, that means something to me.

Oh, man, I, I don't. I, I've loved Robin Williams my, my entire life. I had the privilege of meeting him twice.

Oh, wow.

I got the privilege, I got the privilege of making him laugh when I was 17 and I was like, I can die now. Take like, I'm good. I've done it. You know, to the. We didn't talk about this pre show because, you know, I didn't know this. Listeners can't see this, but I have. Oh yeah, genie.

Oh, for listeners, it's not just a casual genie on the arm. It's like a proper detailed genie. That's awesome. How did you, how did that come about?

So for me, so I think I discovered Robin Williams. I, I'm like an 80 year old woman on the inside. So I watched a lot of like old television. So one of the shows I watched was Happy Days and he has a character, Mork from Planet Orc, which turned into Morgan Mindy. And I was like, who is this man? He's so interesting. And I've seen all of his movies and I watched them over and over as a kid and it was because I was a very depressed child and his movies Made me laugh. Like it was the only thing that would make me happy. And so when Aladdin came about, at the time, voice acting was really relegated toward just, you know, low level acting is beneath bigger stars. But when Robin Williams did the Genie, it was so popular. Just completely changed the game of celebrities doing voices. And it was always, you know, for me, I look at it in the tattoo, his eyes look right at me. And so I look down and I think, you know, just don't forget to smile. Like, have some fun, you know. And there's also the, you know, meta version of this. At the end, you know, the genie's cuffs come off and he's free and he can do what he wants. So, yeah, my genius cuffs, he's staying with me. Okay. He's not gonna go fly off. But. But yeah, so that's how it came about. Yeah.

And I, I know that the listeners are screaming at me to ask this question now. So they've just heard you say you made Robin Williams laugh. And every person's go, oh my God, what was the joke? What was the joke? What did you say? What did you do? How did you make someone like that laugh? We would all, you know, happily die at that point. That made him laugh.

Okay, so my high school there's a nonprofit and that was founded in San Francisco called 826 Valencia. And you work with high school students to write a book. It's Dave Eggers company. So there's always a celebrity that writes the forward. So my class was selected, Robin was the forward, which was amazing. He came to our school, he did like a comedy set. Hilarious. Took a picture, didn't get to talk to him. I was so jealous. We get to the book release party and he's there and he signs the book. And afterward I meet him at the stanchion and it says, you know, welcome to the Williams family. Robin and Zelda and his kids names, right? I meet him here and I said, robin, I'm such a huge fan. I've seen all your work. And I'm just rattling off things on his IMDb that he knows. And I go, but he's like. And he's so just in it. And I say, but I gotta tell you, Robin, I'm really disappointed. And he says, why? And he genuinely looked concerned. And I said, because this signs here says welcome to the Williams family. And my last name is Williams, and my name's not on here. Like, who do I have to sleep with to get my name on this side row? Very outlandish teenager. And he just, you know, just went back, just like, laughing, just. I was like, we'll work on it. We'll work on it.

That is amazing. So tell me how that quote has. We can move into some of the stuff that I really want to talk about today. Tell me how that quote has led you to the sort of life you've had up, up until this point.

So it's always been a really good anchor for me when I feel like I'm getting lost or I feel like I don't know what I'm doing. I have a few quotes that, that I reference for that, but that one is always one that sticks to me. Because what makes you great, whether that's singing or business or whatever it is, or artistic things, it's also your greatest weakness. You know, it's like a very, very, very fine line. Like your madness, like, it's called madness for a reason, right? You know, like, it can make you mad. It can make you sort of lose your way or chase the wrong things because of this initial spark of an idea. And so for me, it's always been, am I losing my spark? Am I. Hey, am I on the right path? Does this add up? Do these. I started at point A and now I'm on point L. And was. Was that right? I don't know. And so it's always been a good touch. Point of, are you, are you using your madness or are you falling into the way of society and the world and chasing the wrong things that don't actually make you happy? But it's a. It was a, an offshoot of your original idea, and so therefore it must be okay. But that's not true, you know?

Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Just because you want to go to LA doesn't mean you just go straight the entire time from San Francisco, right? You have to turn at some point, you have to get off, otherwise you're going to end up in Mexico. That, that's crazy, you know, so, so.

I, and I agree with you, I think. And also for people to pursue something that is out of the, out of. You know, it's unusual for most people's perception of life or how a career should look or how this should look or that should look. We're going to talk about toxic ambition today. And people, people naturally go, okay, how do I know when madness is too much madness? How do I know when madness is the right type of madness? Because some people go, well, madness, okay, so I feel mad in this situation. But actually, how do they know how to utilize that? How do they know what part of it's the right part? Have you created a distinction for yourself in terms of which part of the madness is right and then which part of the madness leads to things like toxic ambition?

That's. It's a very careful, careful calibration and you. And self awareness is the main thing. You have to be able to pause and start to think about it. If you just keep going, if you just go, go, go, go, go, you'll never be able to recognize it. So you have to have a stopping point. And for me, it was, you know, I have this goal. Take me too long to get the goal. I'm upset because I thought it should happen sooner or I hit the goal, but it didn't make me happy, so it must have been the wrong goal. So I got to make a new goal so I can go do that or, you know, just. I'm getting praise from my friends or family or peers, and I'm like, no, I'm. My internal monologue is, you don't even know. I'm like a loser. I'm not doing all these. It looks great on the outside. On the inside, it's a mess, you know, and it's just when you're doing something that has a very prescribed outcome and you're not willing to move on the outcome and you will sacrifice any and everything it takes, you know, whatever it takes, by any means necessary, that is not a good goal. You know, it may be a good goal, but the way you're going about it is. Is incorrect. And for me, the way that I. I recognize it is, you know, my background, you know, is in architecture and real estate development and tech. And when I was in real estate development at this job that I loved originally, I really did love that job and the place that I worked at. But there's a change in ownership. Things shifted. And literally every second between my foot hitting the ground, getting out of the bed to my ass hitting the chair, getting back in my car to go home, I was miserable. I was miserable. And I was living this life to achieve these things that I, quote, unquote, wanted, until I realized I've been told to want these things, and therefore I've told myself I want them, but now I have them and I'm super unhappy. So rather than stop and think about, what do you really want out of life? I just have to work harder because then I'll see what everyone else wants me to see. I'll just make more money and buy more things and increase my social, economic, my socioeconomic status, and I'll find it, but that's not actually true. And so for me, when it comes to calibrating it myself, you know, if I have a project I need to work on, you know, I'll. I listen a lot more to my body when it's tired. I don't do anything, you know, because I'm going to sit there and I'm going to argue with myself about getting it done. It's going to take me like seven hours. I'm gonna be super unhappy. Or I can punt on the day, wait till tomorrow and knock it out in an hour because I feel better. And it's really about, you know, the madness, the crazy, whatever you want to call it, letting it out for a very specific amount of time, like when you need it. Like when you're in a deadline, when your back's against the wall, you have to pump out a ton of work for whatever particular reason, turn it on and then put it away. Because I have an entire mini pharmacy next to my bed that I don't talk about because of my ambition. And I wish I didn't have to take those pills, but I do because I pushed my body to points that I shouldn't have. Because in my head I thought I needed to. I thought I had to. I thought I should. Like those three words.

I totally agree with you that, yeah, absolutely.

Need, have, should. Yeah, need, to, have, to, should. The most dangerous words.

I, I say that every single week. I say that every single week to people. Those exact three words. That's so weird you just mentioned that. Yeah. Agree.

Yeah. Yeah. So definitely, if you're, if you're saying that to yourself, then you really need to stop and think about why do you feel that way? You know, like, because we need to eat, we have to drink water. We should be social because that's how we're ingrained. And you do have to pay your taxes unless you want to go to jail. But other than that, you know, there's very few absolutes, but we make so many of them out of literally nothing. You know, it seems important, but when you back it up to the grand scheme of life, it. It's really nothing because someone else can do it. If you die tomorrow, your job's going to replace you and they're going to do the same thing. You know, my TO tomorrow is the. Tomorrow is the one year anniversary of my mom's passing. And I remember, I remember what I was doing. I was writing an email. I just finished an early morning call. I was writing an email. I got the news just, you know, in disarray and I went back, I sat at my computer and I was, I looked at the email I was writing and I just, this, this is so stupid. This doesn't matter. Because what matters now, you know, it's really stopping to think about like yes, it's important we care about our jobs and we do, and our integrity. But life and connections are people and quality of life is way more than any career can be.

So for people listening, I'm sorry that happened to you and I'm sure that was very powerful image or metaphor that you've provided for others in that moment of really understanding what's important. Lots of people will be listening to this. Lots of people will think about toxic ambition in terms of their career and actually miss out that there's toxic ambition everywhere in terms of just things that society tells you you should have. So I know people are going to be saying this and they'll, they'll say, but angelic. So how would you describe very simply what toxic ambition is if you really had to condense it so that people could instantly measure if they're suffering with it right now? How would you define it?

I would define it as. Ask yourself in any aspect, work, personal, is the life you're living more fulfilling or more draining? When you think about your life, do you feel energized? Do you feel like things are right or do you feel constantly, you're not enough, this isn't happening, that isn't happening or I'm hitting my goal, but I just. These 80 hour weeks are killing me. You know, when you really think about how do you feel about your life right now when you're feeling that, that pressure I like, it's like a boulder in your chest where you can't breathe and you're just stuck, you can't move and you again, you feel like you're stuck to. You're stuck between me too and have to. And you don't have agency because there's always a choice. We just tell ourselves we don't have one. When you're really thinking about that, that's how you know it's toxic. If you just feel stuck between a rock and a hard place, there's no way out except what you've created for yourself. Something in your life has become toxic that you built this invisible box that you can't, you created the box, you can get rid of the box.

You wrote an article on this subject and I know that people had responded, it responded to it in a Way that maybe surprised you to a certain extent in terms of people coming out of the woodwork and coming to you. You. Whilst maintaining a level of discretion which I, I'm sure is. Is needed here and important. Could you maybe highlight some people. Not names, but highlight some people, parts of their stories that you can share, that people can sort of go, yeah, that's the version of toxic ambition that I am. And that. Yeah, oh, yeah. God, I'd do that. I didn't even know that was a problem. So who were the people? What sort of things were they saying when they read the article?

Oh, man. Yeah, there's. There's so many different examples. I mean, there's people from climbing the corporate ladder and dealing with, you know, sexism, racism, microaggressions, whatever they are for the sake of getting the promotion or doing the things. There's people that, you know, they stay in a relationship because their goal is to be married and this is the person they're with and forget if you like that person, but they want to marry you, so you're gonna go do that, but you have to be with that person forever. And the relationship is terrible. But you'd rather be here and have the status and the title of someone's spouse than to be single and happy. You know, there's. There's just so. There's so many things. There's people that, you know, have lost their families because they were so obsessed. They missed their kids games, they, you know, took a spoke at a conference on their wedding anniversary. You know, just things that inherently aren't terrible, but when you're inherently aren't deal breakers, let's say. But when it becomes a pattern where you're constantly missing out on your life, like missing out on people in your life, because, you know, a lot of people, I say all the time, the neighborhood you went to, the school you went to, the degree you have, your job, that's not a personality trait. These are not personality traits. These are not who you are. It's what you did, and that's it. And a lot of people, you know, one in particular, I think about lawyers. Every lawyer I've talked to, even before this, I asked them, oh, would you be a would. If you could do it again, would you be a lawyer? And they say, no. I'm like, so why are you here? Like, well, I spent all this money on this degree, so I might as well. You might as well be what? Miserable because of debt? Which is. Which is a real ambition, which is real issue. But.

But it's just like. It's like a gambling addiction, isn't it? You put so much money into it, you're trying to basically get the return or the reward on it. And I, I remember when we talk about toxic ambition, in many ways it's a form of addiction really. It's, you know, it's being. It's. It's that thing of, okay, well, maybe I. Maybe I am getting some level of instant gratification in that moment. But there's, you know, it's essentially empty or instant relief from pain, but essentially it's empty. I remember Ben Affleck, I was sort of going off topic slightly, talking about him being an alcoholic and saying that his belief. And he's doing much better now, his belief ultimately with that or of changing any habits really comes down to you have to go through something, an extreme form of pain to really create a permanent change. So here's one, for example, is he's a mess. He's part. Is sort of nearly passed out. And he said, I can. I've got, you know, been sick and everything else lying on the floor. I can see my kids standing over me crying. And he just said he knew at that moment it's too. The pain is too intense and too real that it has to change. Now. My feeling is that everything can be motivated by pain or pleasure. They're the things that drive, motivate us. But I know plenty of people who, who. They will never make a change unless it's an intense form of pain. And sort of what you described as, well, angelic is the thing that's caused you to make the shift is intense pain, like, for many of us, and that's not a problem. Do you think overcoming things like toxic ambition, do you think that only really comes about by the, you know, big slap in the face or what you described as the whole family is broken. Do you think it only gets resolved through intense pain, or do you think there are ways that can help make people make a permanent change now that they don't have to go through all those consequences you were just referencing.

Yes, absolutely. And that's part of the reason why I built the course, to try and save folks from hitting that. Hitting that wall. Because, yeah, I've had several moments of where, you know, that. That realization that something has to change. And I. I relate to Ben in that way because I used to have a massive drinking problem because I was looking for happiness at the bottom of the glass and it wasn't there. So on to the next one. The next one took me a very, very long time to learn how to drink socially without dying. And it's funny you mentioned Ben Affleck. I have a friend, a work colleague turned friend who is an aa and he took the course and he, and he even said that there was a lot of similarities between the program and what's in the course. And it is. You're, you're addicted to the success, to the, to the likes, to the accolades, to the thought leadership. Really. Again, it's about pausing. It's about pausing and asking yourself, why are you doing this? And one thing I talk about in the course is the five wise technique. Not sure if you're familiar with that at all. It's been, it's been repackaged like seven Y's deep and other things. But again, continuing to ask that why? So to get to the deeper root, because whatever that first answer is, that's the superficial answer. That's what, that's what's been embedded in our brain to believe. But if you go deeper, somehow it always lands with like parenting or you know, like economic status, the way you grew up. We don't like going there. You know, our brain goes into like self defense mode, self preservation when we start to think about these scary things because our body perceives it as a threat. And so we need to save ourselves from it and not go there. But the reality is you do really have to get in. There's a quote, I can't remember who said it, but it's. Again, it's one of those quotes I package in my brain, which is the only way, the only way out is through, like, you can't jump over it. You have to go through the darkness, fall in the puddle, you know, scrape your knee, whatever, to get to their side. Like, there's no shortcuts. We can make shortcuts. We can pretend, I've done it many times. We can pretend that we, that we've solved it, that we've got it together by changing your job or changing your industry altogether. And you get that breath of fresh air because it's a new environment. But those same things will creep back. Like, you can't outrun yourself just because we're not the completed version of ourselves. Like you said that big thing at the end. Just because we're not a completed version doesn't mean we can't clap for ourselves of like, how far we've gotten. Like, whoever's listening. If you talk to yourself a year ago, two years ago about whatever your idea is or your goal was and where you are now I'm pretty sure that previous version of you'd be like, yeah, that's great, we're making great progress. But the you presently is like damn, this is taking forever. I just want to get, I just want to get there. I'm tired of waiting.

I used to, I, my background was as an athlete and then I worked in the corporate sector. So I've come from sort of quite high pressure backgrounds where it was outcome over output really. And sort of what you're describing and for people listening essentially is look, outcomes are great and they're, they're, they're, it's nice when you achieve things but if you don't have any sort of reward system for your output because your outcome you can only influence, you can't control the outcome, can control your output. And the truth is people try and control the thing they can't control with the outcome and they have a substandard output. Whereas actually if they just understood their output a little bit better by marrying up what do they really want then having the right output to that and with that actually having a reward system for those outputs that anything above that which is essentially going to be an outcome is a bonus. And it's okay at that point. But it's if that becomes your staple of outcomes in life results, yes, it's important in some factors of life, it's important in some jobs, but that's not as an either or, it's you get the output part right. Even if you worked in something like for example sales where yes, it's all results driven, it's all outcome, you don't have a focus. Anyone who's good at sales has a really clear focus and output because if they just focus on the outcome, the truth is they won't make sales all of the time, but they can keep their own self esteem high and their own sense of self worth in terms of their job right by have I done the right things to make this the right thing, you know, to perform as well as possible, Have I got the right output and then the rest of your outputs at home and everywhere else. The one thing I really was desperate to ask you is it sounds like you very much feel like you're on the other side of at least the intensity of how bad it maybe got for you personally. And then I always think it's being nice to be in a position where you're then helping others once you feel like you, you've dealt with that. I know you describe it as another place of being like getting to Nirvana, essentially, and being able to have fun. So how do you have fun?

You know, that is a perfect question. And when you asked me about how to define toxic ambition, as we kept talking, I thought, man, I should have said, name a hobby that's not work related. Because I used to. People would ask me, what do you do for fun? And I would sit and I would seize in my brain. I'm like, don't say drinking. Don't say drinking. That's a really bad first answer. Don't say that, because that was my hobby. I go home and I drink, I watch tv, I go to sleep in front of the couch. That was my. That was my life. I didn't do that much. But now I have real answers, so thank you.

Let's go. Let's. Let's see the real answers. Let's go.

So my real answer. So I love traveling. I love traveling. I love discovering culture. I love learning new languages. I'm a huge foodie. I eat for pleasure, not for sustenance. You know, Like, I want almost everything I eat to just be amazing because I love food that much. I like painting, I love horseback riding. Those are my favorite things. I'm a huge, huge fan of drag, so I love going to drag shows. People that grew up in whatever small, small town, big city, whatever, that were different, that were bullied, that were ridiculed, and now they're on stage, touring, or locally being themselves. And I always thought that's such a powerful thing to use. What, what made you different and what people made fun of you for. You didn't hide it. You've just found the outlet where you could be celebrated. And so I. I've always just really, really taken to that. I have a lot of friends that are drag queens because, like I said, it's. It's inspiring. It's back to that spark of madness of, you know, you took your love of makeup and heels and fashion and turned it into this larger than life Persona that brings so much joy to people and joy to you. And do you remember the first? I don't get emotional about it because it's real. It's real personal, so.

Well, do you remember the first time on the sort of. You felt like you're on the other side of this. The first time that you found something fun.

Think there 2021 is. It's been a journey. It's been a big, big journey. Let me think, let me think real quick. The first time I really felt that. Okay, I got it. I don't know if this is Fun. Feels terrifying. But I survived it. I was in Denver, Colorado, in the States. I, you know, Denver is famous for all their mountain ranges and they're called fourteeners because 14,000ft. I'm not a hiker, so I think I will never experience this. But they have a road called the Mount Evans Scenic Bypass. And it's, it's the tallest road in North America. It goes up the mountain. So I said, great, I can see the views without hiking. In theory, this sounded great. And I was by myself. And so you go in, you're driving like, oh, this isn't bad. No cell reception. One lane on one side, one lane on the other side. No guardrails up this mountain. So I'm terrified. I'm going two miles an hour. Like, just straddling both lanes like, this is it. This is how I go. I can't believe. Why is my sense of adventure so high? I don't get it. And it's nine miles. And so we're like mile five. And I'm thinking, I can't make it. I can't make it. I'm having a panic attack. I can't make it. I'm like, okay, let's assess the options. Go, keep going. Fall off the cliff, die. Don't like that. Option two, this is all, I'm going two miles an hour up this road. Okay. Option two, try and turn around to go back down Fall Mountain. Trying to back up and die. Like, okay, I can't do that. Like, option three.

Yeah, not great option so far, but carry on.

Not great. Option three, live and make it. And I was like, okay, there's four miles left. Let's choose life. And so I was like, all right, I don't know how we're going to do this. We're going to get up there. Terrifying thing. I made it up and I was so. Just my adrenaline was just running, just running, running because I'm afraid of death for the last 25 minutes. And so I park, I get out, and it looks like some Avengers Middle Earth type of scene. The. The ground is permafrost, so you can't step on the grass. It takes 50 years for the grass to grow an inch. The air is so thin and it's so beautiful. And There's a lake, 12,000ft. It's called Summit Lake. And I sat there on this rock and I just looked around. I don't know if it was cut again, the near death experience or what, but I sat there and it was so peaceful. It was so peaceful, so quiet. And I can barely breathe this air. And I'm thinking, this is what I've wanted my whole life. This peace, this clarity. Like, and to think I almost turned around and risked death to, like, miss this moment. And in that moment, I decided that, like, that was my permanent. I think that was my final sort of transformation shift of like, we have to, we have to keep doing things like this. Not the death scare, but things that bring this moment. I took a video of it, took a photo of that. Like, and I told myself that I was traveling so I didn't have a address for, you know, like 13 months. And when I said, when I finally have a new place, I'm going to put this somewhere prominently in my home. So I remember this feeling. And I have a giant triptych of this that's about 24 by 48, that's right above my TV in my living room. So when I get stressed out, I sit and I look at it and I remember that moment and I just think, like, you said the word. This is nirvana. This is it. This is, this is that moment. So I always go back to that. And whenever I look at that, I, I remind myself, like, do the things that bring you joy, even if it's scary.

So thank you for sharing that. It was like a lovely story to, to hear. And before, before I get onto the, the last question that I really want to ask you. So you've got this toxic ambition course. Can you tell people a little bit more about what they would expect in that course, what it looks like and maybe where they can find it as well in the, in the show description? We'll give you a link to, to, to the course so you can easily find it as well. But just tell us a little bit more about the course.

Yep. So the course is, it's easy to find. Just, it's talk to conviction.com so it's very easy. Again, we'll have that in the show notes. But the course itself is really built for like a busy person, so. And it's built in both. I, I personally, I just, I struggled with how I wanted to present the course in terms of a structured, you know, week by week or just kind of like a binge model. I told myself, you know, I'm an American. So I said, you know, this is America. You can have it both ways, you know. So the course is offered in the exact same content. One is a structured course. Every week a new module will become available or just an on demand method. You can say, this is my weekend of transformation or My day of transformation and do everything. But the course is a combination of short videos, some worksheets for that week, and then independent work in terms of things to think about throughout the week or until you get to the next module. And the videos are really just about talking about the ideas and the framework. Like the real work comes with looking at it yourself and writing out your answers. And I have a colleague of mine that does a lot of work on DEI work, diversity, equity and inclusion work and belonging and things like that. And he was taking the course and he's like, yeah, I watched the videos and then I got to the worksheets and I'm like, oh, I don't want to do it. I don't want to answer because it's hairy, it's rocket science. But it's just the things we don't want to think about. But the course just really creates the framework for going there and then once you're done, put it away, move on with your life. But really each module probably would take about an hour maximum. You know, the videos, you know, the videos are less than 20 minutes each module and then the rest is just your own thought and work separately.

So if you're listening and you've, you've related to angelic story, you've related to some of the symptoms that we've described, the sort of definition we provided, go check out the course, we'll put it in the show description so we've got an easy enough way to find it. And, and, and thank you very much. I want to, I want to ask you a final question. Tell this story of two children grown up in poverty and they see a sign on a post. On the post it says, if you want to be a great leader, meet me at the beach at 4am in the morning. So the children come back the next day, they go to the beach at 4am and an elder walks over and says, are you here to be a great leader? They both nod their head and elder says to the first child, I want you to walk as far down the beach as possible. Child starts walking, walks about two miles and just says the elder, I'm tired, I'm exhausted. Why are we doing this? The elder said, keep walking. The elder draws a line in the sand in front of them and says, what are you going to do now? The child says, I'm not doing anything. You've not told me why we're doing this. What's the point of any of this? They dispute it for a while and the child goes, I'm not Doing this, turns around, goes home. The elder goes to the second child and goes, are you ready to start walking? And the child looks a bit sheepishly and says, okay. The child walks maybe a mile, no further, and collapses in exhaustion. And the chances. I'm tired, I'm exhausted, I don't want to keep walking. I don't understand why we're doing this. The elder draws a line in the sand in front of them and says, what are you going to do now? The child picks themselves up. They take 10 more footsteps and then fall on their knees again and says, says to the elder, I'm tired. I don't understand why we're doing this. I can't walk as far as the other child. How can I be a great leader? And the elder says, I don't care how far you walked. I wanted to see what you did. Once I drew that line in the sand in front of you, what footprints would you leave them? The point of that story or long winded story is to ask you, angelic, when someone draws that line in the sand in front of you, some point in your life, and you leave some footprints beyond it, where you're really at your sort of, you know, the, the antithesis of your capabilities in life or maybe the last parts of your life, whatever it might be, and you leave those footprints, those final set of footprints, what footprints do you want to leave for other people?

You know, that's something I think about all the time, all the more than the average child, let me tell you. I've thought about this a lot. My grandparents, my mother's parents, they were my heroes. And they said, they had this mantra. It said, live in a way where if you weren't in the room and someone spoke badly about you, the person listening wouldn't believe it. And I've always held on to that of, you know, you want to be nice to people, you want to help people. Like when it's my time, I want people to tell people. I want people to say one, that I was funny. That is my. That is my ace, okay? I'm. I'm a very funny person. I land on that.

You made Robin Williams laugh. So you've ticked that.

Exactly, exactly. I need nothing else in my resume but that. But I want people to say, you know, that I was funny, that I was generous, that I was a good friend, that I always extended a helping hand, that I was always, you know, willing to uplift others. They didn't push anybody down on my way up. They didn't compromise who I was for the sake of something else. And I think at the end of the day I, when I, if I were to think like, what do I want people to say at the end of my life or after they meet me, whatever is, there was no one else like her. And not in the sense of like I achieved something so amazing or that I was the president or I had a billion dollar company, but that I was uniquely myself and that self was. Is an enjoyable memory.

Thank you very much. Oh, I forgot to ask one super, super serious important question. As a foodie. What food do you not. What food are you not living without?

Oh, Jesus. There's three cheese, chocolate and bacon. If I become, if I become lactose intolerant or somehow can't eat meat, euthanize me, send me out. I'm going. I don't want to, I don't want to be here anymore. Well, I don't eat the vegan cheese. I don't want to have dark chocolate. And if you, if someone, if someone out there has plant based pork that tastes like bacon, like from Babe the pig bacon, you might have me. But other than that, I don't want to live. I don't want to live.

Well, you can, you can feel bad for my story then. I found out a while back that I'm marginally, marginally intolerant to lactose. Has it stopped me? No, I continue to persevere. Anyway, thank you very much for your.

Time, as you should. Thank you very much, David.