#151 - The Financial Health of Your Dealership in 2020 w/ Jim Rhoads

Welcome to the Independent Dealer Podcast with hosts Luke Godwin and Jeff Watson. A podcast by Dealers for dealers. Here we go. Hello, everybody. Welcome to this episode of the Independent Dealer podcast. Welcome to 2021, our first official episode of the new year. And we, we are going to talk about 2020. I know we all want to get out of it and leave it in the past, but there's a lot of lessons to be learned and we need to compile our numbers, right, Luke?

So anyway, we do need to look at everything. We need to compare year over year for several years. You can't look at one year compared to the next. Exactly. You have to kind of see what your average was, see what your average growth was over several years and then put it together and see how 2020 came out. Jeff I believe a lot of us had really, really strong months during, during 2020, but I think we also had some really off months in 2020. So I haven't reconciled everything, but I can tell you that 2020 was difficult. I think we did okay. But there for a while we figured it was gonna be the best year ever. And I don't think we're going to see that. What have you seen, Jim?

Well, most of our Buy Here Payer clients, of course, you guys know that I'm a Buy Here Payer specialist. All my work is in the Buy here pay your field. And some of those clients are franchise and retail dealers, but I don't see their numbers from that side. So what I hear from that is really anecdotally, but many of them had really good retail years. You know, those people that are independent retail in addition to Buy Here Payer, and my Buy Here Payer folks certainly had an off year in terms of sales or contract origination. So most of them had steady collection with stimulus money and what have you. Their cash flow was solid. So I think that's one of the fun things to talk about as we look back on a year. This is a really good illustration of something I always talk about. It's nice in a situation where we've got some sort of crisis that in Buy Here Pay Here we have the good fortune of enjoying cash flow from prior years. Right. Or prior months. And so that makes it a little easier for us to withstand these downturns and we can have a little slower rebound than maybe a retail dealer might be able to stand. So that's one of the things that comes out of our analysis so far that looks like most of our dealers really collected well last year.

I agree. I had some of the largest collection months ever. But I've also seen delinquency and recency creep up too. So it's a very interesting dynamic. And hopefully, hopefully the rest of 2021 doesn't, doesn't look like the first week did because we're seeing some real issues out there in the collection business. So let's do some comparison.

Yeah, I'd really like to get into. Let's first up set up the. Let's set up the scene for dealers. I mean, we've talked about this in the past, but you do absolutely need to be tracking your numbers somewhere, right? QuickBooks. At the minimum, pay the $12, have the QuickBooks set up so that you're bringing in all your costs, your expenses. Ideally, you have some sort of DMS that is strong enough to track all this and you're able to pull reports on demand. But of course, this whole conversation is set up with the preference of whether you're a retail dealer or, and, or buy here, pay here. You've got to be tracking these things in a reliable DMS accounting program so that you can pull these numbers up. And then the best thing is if you stick to the same program, that way you have years and years and years of historical data to go through. Right. So, Jim, let's start at the beginning. Assuming we all have some sort of a DMS that we can look into or a QuickBooks program, let's start with retail dealers. And I know this isn't 100% your specialty, and Luke can help us out here too, but what are those first numbers that you're going to want to compile at the year end to kind of judge the health of your dealership From a retail standpoint, you know, I'd.

Be looking at a court all the way to the bottom line just to see what we carried to the bottom line as a percentage of sales. So, you know, that's always something we've done. And I was in retail business before and a short time in the franchise auto business, but I mean, I owned retail sporting goods stores and that sort of thing before. So, you know, all those things still apply in the retail business. Retail car business, you're buying and selling goods and you're trying to carry as much to the bottom line as you can. And that's a little more straightforward in my mind, where it's just a straight cash transaction. Yeah, granted, you know, a retail dealer may have some contracts in transit and it may affect your cash flow. But I'm really just looking first at, you know, what Did I carry to the bottom line as a percentage of sale?

Yeah, I think that's a really good point. And what you say there is, dealers need to look at that. What is your net operating income? So what is your net income before, you know, interest and taxes and things like that per sale? Everybody gets so caught up in it. How many sales? Oh, I'm up 100 sales over last year. I'm up 200 sales over last year, 300 sales. It doesn't matter if you're not making any money. Right. So you really need to be looking at, you know, even if your grosses went up, big deal, you know, I could, I could make my grosses massive, but it doesn't matter if I'm not getting it in the bank and I've got these huge discounts from subprime companies or I've got a completely bloated overhead. So, yeah, definitely looking at that Net profit per sale is super important.

Yeah, I think certainly when we're looking at an annual range like that, you know, it's common. Obviously for those who work in management or out there on the front line, we're looking at growth per copy. You know, we're looking at volume. And those numbers obviously matter. But when we look at our end of the year, you know, it's what we can really take to the bank after, after overhead. So that gross per copy, you kind of have to look at your operating expense per copy and let's, let's look at what we carry to the bottom line.

I think also one of the big things that retail dealers should be looking at this year is I think you should break in. I think you should break apart in quarters because there was, you know, there was some really weird quarters this year. So if you looked at your first quarter compared to 2019's first quarter, I think they'd probably give you a pretty good, I mean, maybe not 100%, but pretty good indication of where you were. And then I'm not sure you can compare the second quarter and the third quarter of last year to anything because of stimulus money and because of the price of vehicles. So I kind of think you need to take a step back from those, Break those out. And fourth quarter should give you a pretty good idea of the previous fourth quarter. Maybe up, maybe down, but probably about the same. So make sure you're pulling quarters apart, taking out things that are anomalies and looking at real core data. That'll give you a better idea than maybe last year as a whole. Last year as a whole was A craziness, right?

Yeah, that's a good point. That second and third quarter is definitely going to pull down your averages for some people, I imagine.

Well, I think you're going to have some pulled down, but you're going to have some that pulled way up. So let's say if you had a. You're in a state that was shut down all of April and maybe most of May, you're going to have a horrible second quarter, right?

Yeah.

Then when everything started open back up, if you had inventory, you may get a huge spike at the end of second quarter, the first of Q3. But then when prices were so high and you get in those cars, your gross may go down a lot and your net profit may go down a lot. So I think there's some really interesting things to look at in 2020. Compare and, you know, being a retail dealer, being a buy here, pay here, deal, whatever you are, those expenses, you need to look and see if they ballooned, they stayed the same, they got smaller because you got rid of some people because you had to. So there's so many. Look at your salaries, you know, salaries. The most. Typically, the most money goes out the door. Right. So there's some real key indicators that we need to look at, and I think salaries, your marketing, and if you're paying rent, you know, what happened there? Did you. Were you able to work something out with your landlord?

Were you.

Were you not? There's just so many things in 2020 that. That's a little nutty.

That's true. And did you get your PPP forgiveness? Is that, you know, counting out on some of your, you know, reducing some of your expenses ratios, but all in, I think, benchmarks around 20% net profit. I mean, would you say that's probably pretty healthy? If someone's looking at their quarter by quarter, they should be about a 20% net.

I think that's a little high, probably. I think if you can get to 20%, that's good. I looked at my service department this past year and we grew substantially in sales in the service department. We went from about $900,000 in total sales in 2019 to being at 1.03 million in 2020. And we, you know, we squeaked out 10% net or maybe 12% net, which is, to me, that's off. You know, maybe we grew too fast and didn't have the right things in place. So my goal for next year would be a minimum of 15%. And I think if you can hit 15%, that's good. I think if you get to 20, that's really good. And I think if you're at 23 to 25, you've crushed it. Is that what you see, Jim?

Yeah, I would say the same. I don't even see 20% net across the operation in retail, you know, and again, I don't see those numbers as often. We rarely see 20% on the buy here payer side, but we certainly see the teens regularly, you know, go to the bottom line. And I, you know, I work more on the operational side. We're more in, you know, collections tracking, portfolio analysis. So I definitely see, you know, kind of the operational side much more than I see the financial side that, you know, see the expenses. But certainly in my years and of course, I owned a dealership and finance company myself for seven years and during the time that I was out there, you know, comparing the other kind of things through 20 groups or whatever, I just, you know, you would rarely see anybody get to 20.

Yeah, well, I think, I think we got there. I did not. I think it looks like my year to date net blended income, I'm around 8% net, which is down from 12% last year. So, yeah, I'm definitely on that lower end of where I should be. And I know it's because I've got some heavy overhead in the personnel department, you know, and that's a little bit by design, but it's good to know that.

And I think you also have to look at your add backs. A lot of people don't do that. You've got to look at the things that you're paying yourself in your dealership. Right. So if you own your property, you can add that back if you're packing your cars heavy, which that would be added back. But are you paying yourself a bigger salary than you should? Are you paying it less than you.

Should, so you should.

Yeah. Are you paying yourself rent at an inflated rate? Are you funding your 401k and your IRA and everything out of that employment stuff? Yeah. So there's probably some sneaky areas where you could definitely lower that net operating income number, probably. But it's good to know by design, you know, and that's what I'm seeing is you're doing it intentionally. You know exactly where those things are and if push came to shove, you could turn those off and keep your dealership profitable.

Yeah. And I think, you know, in January, I mean, in December, I typically try to lose money, you know, because I need to. And it's not that I'm trying to lose Money. There's ways that you can lose money on paper that doesn't cost you actual money. So those are things that you should have already done. If you didn't do them, then, oh, well. So look at 11 months is a real key to look at those 11 months and see what you did.

Yeah, yeah. And go back and listen to the episode with Lee Ferguson a couple weeks ago. He talks about that, you know, some of those tax strategies. So moving forward from the retail subprime type sales or anybody buy here, pay here, the sales side. Now if we step into more specifically, and we want to talk to some buy here, pay here dealers for just a minute, this is where Jim really shines. What kind of KPIs would you say are the most crucial for us to look at from the health of our portfolio and then how it performed last year?

You know, my number one go to is always going to be a collection efficiency, but that's more of a week to week number. When we're talking about looking at a year or even quarters. Then I'm going to look at what I call conversion rates. Now, you know, somebody in the financial sector might, you know, use a different tag for that particular number. But what we're really talking about is if you measure at the close of a month how much you collected in principal, how much you charged off in principle compared to your opening principal for that month, those are your conversion rates. Because in my mind, you know, the way I'm thinking about that is that's the rate at which our portfolio is converting to cash. Obviously, if it's charging off, you know, we, so in a simple illustration, you know, we would open the month with a certain amount of principal. We would add to principal through new contracts. We're going to charge off a certain amount, collect a certain amount. So when we track those on a percentage basis, month over month, and then look at that, you know, on a yearly basis or quarterly, however we choose to, that's probably our best indicator of the rate at which our portfolio is converting to cash. Now where does that number land? Well, it depends a little bit on, you know, where you're. If you're in one of the high interest rates, that number could be a little bit different. If you're, if it's a little bit on your term of contract, that number can vary. So that's why I first look at how do those two numbers elected principal versus charged off principal. Look at those two numbers and see how they compare. And you know, this sounds so simplistic, yet I talked to a lot of dealers that really don't pay attention to that. I mean, I find dealers that are underwater with those numbers and don't even realize that it matters that, you know, cash. Right. They're, you know, they have their portfolio stays the same because they're out there selling and they're pumping a lot of contracts into the portfolio. But the reality is they, most of that portfolio, portfolio is not converting into cash. And if you just charge off and repos, but it's not converting into cash. And so that's why. Go ahead.

No, I was saying if you're just spinning your wheels, you don't really realize it because it's very easy to kind of start eating away at your portfolio a little bit by a little bit to keep your operations going. And you don't really realize that you're basically cannibalizing your own, your own portfolio through repos and charge offs and overhead. Right. So I think, Luke, maybe check me if I'm wrong, but do we call that the collateral recovery rate? Is that the same figure that any association member would see in their.

I think, I think that is. So it's principal. Yes, it is. Yeah, that is.

Okay. And Jim, where do you see that number? What's a, what's a, what's your benchmark for that?

We typically see with most of my portfolios, based on the typical ACV, it's running in the 4.5% collected principal. And then we'd like to see charge off principal run in that 2% range. So, you know, we'd like to see roughly 2 to 1 on that ratio. So obviously if we're, if we're underwater, if we're, if we're charging off, you know, $1.25 a principal for every dollar principal that would collect, we just, we can recognize that that's not a, that's not a healthy performance. But we just, we look for that number to run more like 2 to 1 on the principal collected. So I think as a long range indicator, you know, it's going to be a good one. I prefer that because at least we're looking at that on a monthly cycle. And you can, if you measure that against static pooling, you know, static pooling is helpful, but I often talk about static pooling kind of being a report card at the end of the semester. By then it's too late to change your grade, you know, and so you'd like to be able to get these kind of an ongoing measuring stick. And I came today prepared to kind of illustrate a Side by side thing, because I think with buy here, pay here, one of the interesting things, especially as we close out 2020, it's interesting to really compare cash flow and profit. It's something that I find with, you know, I work a lot with startups, we launch dealers into business, you know, brand new and buy here, pay here. And one of the things that I find is when dealers are coming from retail or franchise, there's that paradigm shift that has to happen where we have to start thinking about number of contract and car payments and cash flow and exceeding overhead and all these kind of things that the retail dealers are not used to thinking of, at least not in the same way. And then we have that added complication, buy here, payer, where we've got this phantom profit component where, you know, I've jokingly told a story about a dealer who reached out to me one day to celebrate by text that he delivered a deal with, you know, $5,000 of gross profit and he got $500 down. He was so proud of his gross profit. And I just, I just said, buddy, I'll, I'll join you in celebrating when we reach positive cash flow. I don't feel like we've accomplished much of any except put a bad credit customer in a car. And so, you know, kind of a question of what we learned to celebrate and what we learned to look at and buy here, pay here. So I hate to always be the buzzkill, but the reality is we, we can't really celebrate on the day of delivery. Our work is still ahead of us.

Sure. And that's something that so many buyer payers, dealers have to learn the hard way. And I was just looking, you know, you talking about principal collected to, to charge off. We also look at principal, I'm sorry, interest collected to charge off too.

Right.

Isn't that a pretty, pretty big number to look at?

It is, but that one obviously varies because, you know, some of you folks out there in the Southeast have got the higher interest rate and so it's not always comparative that most of my clients, you know, outside of the Southeast are running around 18 to 21% interest. And so, you know, you just got to kind of measure that. But also you think about the customer's payment, obviously in a simple interest installment early on, that payment is going to be heavy on interest and low on principal. So we factor that in when we look at these kind of conversion rates that I'm talking about. Okay.

One of the other things, Jim, that you find that dealers should look back and compare year over year that really tells you how good your portfolio is performing and whether you need to tighten up or loosen up.

You know, I think those ones that I indicated, if you're not tracking collection efficiency, and that's my label, I don't really see anybody else in the industry doing exactly what we do in terms of net collection efficiency. We're going out there and you know, running a projected report. And we talked about this, I remember in our prior episode, but you know, we run a projected report, we then come back the following week and we measure what we actually collected. And so that's kind of the number we looked at. I think one of the challenges in buy here payers, you've got this moving target. And I think, you know, we're looking at if we just talk about cash flow first. And you know, again with 2020, I said cash flow was strong for our clients. They still produced cash. And you mentioned delinquency and recency. We saw delinquency and recency spike, but we still saw them collect efficiently over a range of time, put the money in the bank, so to speak. And so even if it came late, been a little while since customer pay and they got cut up with a little caught up with a little stimulus or whatever. The reality is we saved that customer, we kept them in the car, we collected the money over a range of time. And so that's why we choose to look harder. Collection efficiency over that delinquency and recency. Of course those things are going to matter. But again, that's really more of a week to week kind of measuring stick. But I think there's nothing that we do that tracks a dealer's overall portfolio performance better than those conversion rates that we're talking about.

That's interesting. I was, I tell you, it gets so hard to remember that you get tied up in numbers a lot of times and you forget that our customers, the reason they're our customers most of the time is because they can't pay people well. Right. And I was just talking to another dealer yesterday and I thought this was interesting. I want to see what you, what you think. But you know, he said, you know, I think he said about his portfolio, I think I'm lucky if the customer makes 11 payments a year. Do you see that, Jim? Is that something we can be okay with or not?

I'd say it is. As long as they're catching up. You know, if they're. I think we've talked about collection efficiency before. One of the reasons I choose to look at that Is when you look at the deficiency part of that, you know, if we're deficient 7%, for example, then the only way we're losing payments that those payments don't ultimately make it in the bank is if that customer ultimately fails and charges off, or if we defer money, in which case we may still collect it later, but we're still without that cash during that range of time. And so I think if we avoid those scenarios, we're ultimately having success with the customer. And though it's frustrating to our collectors and sometimes frustrating to us to have a long delinquency report, that's why I choose to emphasize the collection efficiency. Because if we're. If our collectors do the job that we'd be asking them to do, certainly the way we train them, they're going to work with customers and they're going to try to solve problems and keep the customer on the road. And I think the lower the income of the folks that we choose to finance, the more this is true. Because if a customer falls behind because of a failed water pump or whatever it might be, it's just more challenging for them to catch up. It's going to take a little time to catch up. So what that means we're going to pay a price on our delinquency numbers. But ultimately we want that customer to be successful and get back on the road. That just means, like you say, that we may only collect 11 out of 12 this year. Hopefully we'll collect 13 out of 12 next year. Right. But that's kind of the idea.

Would you ever factor that into your forecasting and just say, hey, I'm only going to be 90% efficient. I'm only going to collect 11 out of 12 payments this year for this, for any customer. And that's okay because I factored that into my cash flow. I know I'm going to kick one payment to the end of the loan every year per customer. And I just factor that in and I make my numbers work based on that because it does make a lot of sense. Jim, you're just talking about we do and what's your collection efficiency? So just, I don't know, budget for that to keep the loan going.

Absolutely. I think.

I think what I saw, I went back, you know, you can look at. There's so many numbers to look at.

Right.

But I think I went back and took out every loan it paid out. Right. And I mapped those and said, okay, their original loan was, you know, 40 months or whatever it was, whatever the average was. And on average, it took 44 months for that customer to pay out. But I don't see a problem with that. And Jim, I found something interesting you were just talking about. We can never get a customer called up. So a lot of times defer, we use the deferral method, I think a little better than a catch up method. Is that on my collections, my style of collections, or is that industry standard, do you think?

I'm going to say this style of collections because with most of the clients that we work with, they rarely are going to have a deferral situation. They're going to work out some sort of payment extension, give the customer the opportunity to catch up, and they're going to stick with the contract schedule and give the customer an opportunity to catch up. Now, the reason I would go to, you know, collection style or approach is because that approach really only works when we really are persistent and really reactive in our enforcement. So that's all about timely enforcement, which that could be a whole other podcast episode. Right? We could talk about collections and enforcement. But I think, you know, the key is when we connect with the customer quickly and we find a solution before they get, you know, a couple of bi weekly payments behind. The sooner we can catch up to them and reach an understanding, then the easier it is for them to get back on track.

Yeah, that makes really good sense.

I want to get your opinion on two things. Obviously we need to give some credit to our sponsors, Tax Max. You guys know they're a sponsor of the podcast, They've got promo code podcast. So if you want to get signed up for the Tax Max program, we promote it, I use it. I did one yesterday. Lady came in, thousand dollar stimulus money, down payment. Plus we're collecting another 3,000 from her taxes because she typically gets like 8 grand back every tax time. And it's proven and we did the estimate, so it's a great deal. Where, hey, I would have rolled her with a thousand anyways, but I'm getting another 3,000 come tax time. Obviously we love those guys. But Jim, I know you've just recently done your tour day, I hear pay here recently because I follow you on Facebook and I see you roaming the countryside visiting people, which I wasn't one of them, oddly enough. We're only, we're only like two hours away from each other. But did you stop it? Yeah. And he goes all the way to Luke, which is like the other side of the world. But anyways, do you think there'll be a tax time?

Hi, Listen, I'm sorry. You're so sensitive about that. I'll come see you again. I will, I promise.

So I drive past your house like every other weekend on my way north. I'm just gonna egg you and then keep going.

Well, the problem is what you're not realizing is I don't really live in Salt Lake City anymore. I'm here visiting Utah for the holidays. But I. My wife and I are now in a travel trailer. So that's why the tour has come into. Into play for us. And that's why Luke saw us. We're. We're out there traveling like a nomad or like gypsies, just, you know, swinging through the country, knocking on doors to buy your payer dealers. And so in all seriousness, we. We're just out there, you know, meeting folks and creating relationships with state associations and with dealers. So we love to hear from them and love to have the invitation. And so we called on several in the Southeast. We're actually putting together a swing for the east coast this spring. And so we'll. We'll publicize that and get the word out. But that's what 2021 is all about for Michelle and me. We're just going to be, you know, out there meeting folks, and of course, we'll be hosting some events here and there. But mostly it's about just getting to know people and getting the word out about what we're doing. And so we're kind of having some fun with that. And I'm going to jump back just to make a quick plug for Tax Max myself. Just you guys, I'm much older than two of you. In 1997 or 98, I finished my tax season, and Tax Max called me and said, jim, how did you do so much volume out there? We just want to know, what did you do differently? We did a ton of volume for a small store out there, and I. I'm a big fan of that. Anybody wants to talk to me about Fax Max, I can share with them how to really have a lot of success with that program. Those guys had it dialed in back then, and they've really got it figured out now. So you talked about a way to put a customer in a car now and collect money, you know, directly into your bank account and get the customer what they need today. You know, I use it pretty heavily even in December, and so, you know, there's still plenty of time obviously, to take full advantage. But I'm happy to plug Fax Max and here and share with them with any of my clients, you know, what.

They do give us your big takeaway from your tour. Any big, like light bulbs that went off from when you were visiting dealers or things that we are doing aren't doing takeaways.

It's the same thing I've been seeing throughout my traveling career. And obviously when I go out and meet people, I tend to learn as much as I teach. And on these visits I'm not there to really train or teach anything. I'm just there to meet people and kind of find out what their challenges are and find out what's happening in the business for them. And I guess what I'm finding is that so many of the people I work with are just not paying attention to cash flow numbers in the way that I'm used to seeing. Certainly they're not used to talking about collection efficiency in the way that I measure it. And I might trickle back to say, you asked about projection forecasting. That's one of the big reasons that I like the collection efficiency, because you're absolutely right. If my collection efficiency settles in at 93%, then it's so easy for me to forecast off of that. If I know my volume of business, my portfolio size and number of contracts out there, it's pretty easy for me to forecast, you know, three months out and plan my buying and those kinds of things accordingly. But the other thing that we're hearing is just I find that dealers are not as familiar with, you know, these cash flow numbers in the way that I'm used to thinking about it and realizing today that part of our audience is independent dealers. You know, one of the things I do when I do cash flow projections for a dealer who's getting in the business, I ask them, we load volume and cost a car and recondition costs and you know, typical payment, et cetera. But one of the things I asked them to think about is how many contracts are you going to need when you start in business paying you 375amonth before you can cover overhead. And then the next mark is how many contracts going to take for you to have on the books before you're covering the cost of overhead and inventory replacement. And even though you and we're all shaking our heads and we know that's what we need to be paying attention to, I'm always surprised at how few dealers really know those numbers, really know where they need to be cash flow wise to get ahead. Because it's always my expectation when I put a dealer in business that I'm going to help them get cash positive they hear me talk about it, you know, to the point of nausea, I'm sure, where I just, you know, we want to see our dealers, at least on a per location basis, get to a place of being cash positive. And so I challenge them to, let's, let's calculate that mark, let's set that, that benchmark or that milestone and let's, let's figure out when we're going to tip over and start putting money in our pocket. And, you know, I lived it. I was lucky enough back in, you know, I opened my dealership in 05 and 07. I was lucky enough to cash positive and pay down debt, you know, pretty aggressively. And so it really made a big difference in the health of my business back then. But you have to get to that place where you're cash positive in order to be able to enjoy that. And I just, it's one of the things that I'm, it's kind of part of what I find. I make time to talk about just to make sure that dealers, you know, recognize that, know where they're at and if they don't know when I arrive, hopefully they go back and calculate that when I leave. And that's, that's among the things we've talked about.

That's a great way to wrap this up, Jeff. That buy your pay here is about cash flow and there are certain metrics you can use to figure it out. So I mean, going forward in 2021, that's what you got to look at.

Yeah.

Jim, real quick. Obviously most of the people listening here have heard of you or listen to your previous episode, but how can they get ahold of you and learn more, get some of your free resources where they can kind of start getting a toehold on some of these reports and numbers they should be running.

Sure they'll find us, of course, at the Octane Group, the website, we're pretty active on social media. There's a YouTube channel out there that we're starting to push a lot of content into. So I would urge people to just find the octane group on YouTube. That's, we're just starting to put a lot of, you know, little nuggets of content out there for people who are specifically, specifically in the buy here payer space. And we get pretty granular on some of that stuff. So I'm sure that people find some, some bits of information useful over there. But yeah, they can also, of course, you know, call me directly at my cell phone. I'm happy to share that in the comments when the when the, you know, thing gets shared, we'll make sure people know how to find me that way. Cool.

Awesome. Jim, thank you so much for joining us, and I'm sure we will be speaking to you again very soon. It's a handful of stuff. We got to sit down and get done. Luke, have you got all your numbers put together yet?

No, not yet. By the fifth.

Yeah, none of those are a lot, man, but thanks, man.

Jeff, you'll see me in St. George before long.

Okay, take care.

All right, bye.

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