#241 - Lessons Learned From 20,000 Leases w/ Lee Wells

Hey everybody. Welcome to a special interview that Jeff and I did here, at least here, Payhere Summit. Jeff, who we got.

Yeah, so we interviewed Lee Wells yesterday. It was a great interview. We did live here on stage. Before we get into that this week though, we want to remind you to.

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Right.

Well, the, the great thing about Lee Wells, he was kind of a right hand man to a pretty big dude in our industry, right?

Yeah, yeah, he was Don Foss right hand man for a while. So he gets into that closer to the end of the episode. So stick around if you can. Listen to the whole thing. Gives us some great insight on what it was like to be next to.

A multi millionaire billionaire who founded cac, one of the most iconic lenders in our industry.

Right.

It's a great episode. So here we go.

You are listening to the Independent Dealer podcast with hosts Luke Godwin and Jeff Watson.

I'm Brett Buick with Buckeye Dealership Consulting. And for those of you who aren't aware, we are a full service reinsurance management company. We do dealership consulting, we also have performance groups and basically we just, we kind of got our hands in a little bit of everything and we have a real commitment to. One of the reasons why we're here is all about really trying to come here for the same reason you guys are, which is to learn more about this industry and get better. You know, we obviously we deal with a lot of independent dealers, buy here, pay here, and also retail. But there's some uniqueness to the lease here, pay here. And so we're coming here to work with you and some of the clients that we already have in the room to find better ways to serve you with, you know, things that make your business different than anybody else's. Some of the pending things are going to be happening to you guys over the years. The next couple of years, as your tax strategy are going to be changing and your bonus depreciations start to disappear. And so one of the things that we're working on is when we're creating a reinsurance company for you is just like you are in your business, is how can we plan not just for what's the tax strategy today, but what's it going to be in 25 and how can we get ready for 2025 today? Right. So it's make sure that we create a program that's going to be different based on your dealership, what your long term goals are. Even the people that we have in the room right now, they do things differently. So the stores are not created equal. So it's a long conversation about what you're trying to accomplish, where you want to be, where do you think your business is going to be in 2025 and how can we help you not only get there, but be prepared once it's there and not have to be reactive. So we're here and we're heavy on the, you know, the national circuit at the state level and supporting people like LHPH Capital so that we can not just be a vendor but be a better partner for you in your business. That's something we take real seriously. So we appreciate you having us out, the conversations. We appreciate LHPH having us out so that we can learn more about your businesses. And I look forward to having more conversations with anyone who's interested in what we might be able to do together to make those preparations. So thanks again.

All right, let's do it.

You good? I'm good. You guys good? Hello and welcome to this very special edition of the Independent Dealer Podcast brought to you live.

Live from San Diego, this is your.

Pay Harris Summit San Diego 2022 in front of a live studio audience. They all look friendly enough. I think we're safe.

Hey, we got an applause. Have we ever got an applause before?

No.

No. Okay. Well, we actually have a special treat with you all today. It's Lee Wells from Carite. Tell us about your experience in the auto industry because a lot of people out there probably don't know.

Well, I guess that I should start with. I have 25 years of experience in subprime lending, was part of the original executive launch team of car Rite in 2010, helped build the company to its current state today of 25 rooftops in 12 states and originated 20,000 leases over 10 year period. And I believe that we were the very first client of LHPH back in 2010. Is that true, Tim? Okay, so anyways, I got that one right.

Well, that's a. I mean that's a long time and that's a.20,000 leases originated. I mean, that's rivaling some, you know, national brands maybe.

Probably. I don't know. Well, I don't know. Ford and GM probably do better than us.

Yeah, but I mean there's got to be some smaller. Some smaller brands probably haven't. Haven't done that many.

That's true. But you know, I think that we did a good Job. It's definitely a big enough pool to be able to talk about, you know, the stats on it and give any feedback or information on performance and whatnot. What to do, what not to do.

Well, what would you say are the key factors for success in leasing? Because at 20,000, you probably know them.

So we did an analysis over the last year, and it really boiled down to the two most important things were down payment and term. So the more money you got down and the shorter the term, the better the deal. Now, anecdotally, there is a third one, kind of a sidebar is that, you know, any car that has a strong residual value either high and has shown in the past to be very stable also by asset, will perform better than other things like a Honda crv. Money in the bank, everyone.

So I found out earlier today that Jeff's favorite type of car is one that will last the term of the loan.

That's the only car I don't care about. Ferraris, Lambos. That's not my thing.

You asked me my favorite car. That's my thing.

It's a car that'll last the tournament alone. What were those cars?

So our sweet spot was bread and butter cars. But we were. All of our stuff was originated before pre pandemic. So you have to take that with a grain of salt because the world is different today. But they were all, on average, probably between 40 and 45,000 miles, some of them as low as, you know, less than 10,000. You know, the bread and butter cars there was, you know, 30% of the portfolio were seven models, which is, you know, top was the Chrysler 200 Malibu Focus. Let's see, let's see. Who was the Chevy? I don't know. Then Dodge Caravan, Nissan Altima. And I missed one in the middle there. But anyways, I mean, the same thing you guys were talking about earlier.

You know, what's funny is you said one of the main factors were down payment and term. I've sat in so many 20 group classes and meetings, and this one person in particular would argue me up and down. The down payment didn't matter. Why did it matter? Why did you see that that mattered? Or was it the combination of down payment and term?

Well, I guess we learned that because we thought the same thing. Okay, we're come out with a 500 down program. This could be great.

Yeah, you sell a lot of cars.

Once you heard, when you go through the stats on it, it just doesn't come out that way. I mean, it's the old skin in the Game, you know, the more skin in the game, the more probability that they're going to fight to keep the car in their possession and their payments at least reasonably current so that you're not going to repo the car. It's just kind of simple math.

I've always thought it was. How about you, Jeff?

Yeah, I thought I was. I'm really interested in. When you say a predictable residual value. A Ford Focus and a Chrysler 200 in a Dodge Caravan. As much as I love me a Dodge Caravan, I got a lot full of them right now. No one else loves them, but I love them. They don't strike me as a stable residual.

So I said that was the. Those were the seven cars that made up 30% of portfolio. That was a separate conversation from the performance. The performance had to do with the money down and the term of the loan. And then anecdotally, the high residual cars and stable residual cars.

That makes a lot more sense.

Yeah.

You love Kia Souls.

For some reason, I love Kia Souls. I don't. I'm not the only one.

No, I think I like them, too. It's funny because it's almost like kind of a cult following, like. Kind of like Subaru, you know, Owners, you know, there is a following for them. Or wranglers. You know, it's the same thing.

But wranglers will. I mean, people. I see why people want a wrangler. All right, let's see in here. Really? Let's see in here real quick. We'll do a little contest here. Who in here likes key of souls? Let's hear some noise.

Yay. Yeah.

Okay.

They might as well say Honda across.

The front of them, okay.

Because they are.

No, no, no, no.

They're not a Kia. And I'm gonna say this, and you guys are all gonna start buying them, and I'm not gonna be able to anymore. So we had that conversation.

For those who don't like it, let's.

Hear a big boo boo.

I don't know. It's pretty even, I think, Jeff.

Okay.

Okay. Anyway, next you.

You're going to convince Luke here and me a couple of buy here, pay here guys why we should convert over to a lease here, pay here. And those that are listening at home, you have an opportunity or unique opportunity if you were to start up, you're very well connected because of your situation with cac, Right? So you see what a traditional finance model is like. When you guys started this, you started as leasing, right? And if you did it, if you ramp this up again, you Would do leasing?

Yes, absolutely, 100%. And you know, it's not rocket science and everybody's talked about it, but there's seven or eight things that are just great about leasing. I mean, you get, you know, you're gonna get at least 6 to 8% more money into the car instead of going to the state. You know, in a lot of states, like in Michigan, where we have six locations, you never get that back. If you repo a car in two weeks, you lose that 6%. So then you have the term, the depreciation, the bankruptcy protection. I mean, it can go on, you guys. They're all the same things that are. You have. And this is a really big one too, particularly for those that are thinking about scaling, getting big, is that it's a little bit more of a level playing field on the regulatory side between you and the government. I mean, that may change, but it's a lot better than reg. You know, reg Z is a lot more favorable for you to, you know, defend your practices as opposed to reg Z, which is way left, you know, consumer protection side.

How much should that decision to go into lease here, pay here? And the tax advantage that it gives you enter into that conversation, Is it a big enough deal to sway you from other models?

So I wouldn't do it for that one, just for the tax effect. Although I did talk to somebody earlier today, that was the number one for them. They're saying I'm saving 30 or 40 grand a year, but I wouldn't. I think it's the combination of the seven or eight attributes that leasing provides. One of the things that nobody really talked about a lot. You're forcing the customer to come back to you whether they like it or not. You do a retail installment contract, you know, and you give them the best service in the world. You know, it's 50, 50, they're going to come back. I mean, particularly because I know CAC's average term, last time I looked at it was 70 plus months. I mean, who wants to have a cycle every 70 months? I'd rather be at one every 35 months.

And speaking of term, because you brought that up earlier, what was your best term that made the best lease?

It was between 30 and 36. We had a significant portion during the period of time when we started in 2010, there was not a lot of competition and we didn't have to do anything except 36 or less, down to 24. But then as the credit markets started to get a little bit looser and competition got higher and There was payment competition that we were actually forced to move to 48. If I had to relive that, I would not do that. It's better to sacrifice the production level for a quality portfolio as opposed to create a bunch of extra work because, let's face it, repoing or chasing and then repoing and then fixing the car and I mean, there's a lot of energy that is expended in that process and it's better just not to go down that way. Particularly if you have a wide enough spectrum of lenders, which we do. We're a full spectrum. We're not selling credit, we're selling cars. We have lenders all the way from A plus all the way down. We take all the deep subprime ourselves. And you can fill in the production levels with these other opportunities with the other lenders and lay off that risk somewhere else as opposed to putting that risk in your portfolio.

Hey, just to break in real fast and thank our sponsors, Buckeye Dealership Consulting. They were out here, Jeff. They are always taking care of the independent dealer. Whether you're a retail, whether you're buy here, pay here or lease here, pay here, which we're talking about today, right?

Yeah. Reinsurance products that Buckeye sells, you are good for everything.

Everything. No matter what industry you're in when it comes to cars, they're there for you. Check them out, do the things you need to do to get involved.

Speaking of risk, when you say that as a lease here, pay here, are you less likely or do you have less landmines to step on from like a CFPB standpoint in your kind of regulation, like you were talking about Reg Z and things like that, is leasing steering clear of a few more things than you would in traditional.

You are kind of. Although there is. You are on the lease contract side. Okay. But in the middle of the collection side, you still have that same. You know, you still have those. You still have to be real careful in that part of the business. But in the contract side, you have a lot more leeway.

That's. Yeah, I can see that whole game there. Not game, but the situation. It's the term. Also does the term, when you're at 35 months or 36 months, does that also allow you to need less inventory? If you can put that car back out sooner, does it give you a bottom end in car where. Where we. In the retail business? Like I'm in retail, buy here, pay here. I'm always having to get new cars. But if you get that lease back at 35 months. Is it able to go again? How many times can you do it?

So the answer to that is yes. Particularly for us, where we were rolling cars at an average of 40,000 on the first go round, we could easily cycle them two or three times. Although this was an ongoing conflict between myself and my boss. I was, my early training was a cpa. I'm like, well, I already own the asset. I've already probably. I know the asset. Also we've had, you know, we have history here. We know if it's a lemon or not a lemon. This should go. If it's, if it's still brand worthy. Meaning it's not. It can't be 180,000 miles. You know, we're not going to run the wheels off a car, but you know, if it's less than 100,000 miles, I mean, take the easy win, put it back on the front line.

So, yes, I like that you talk about brand when it comes to that. I mean, it's brand worthy. I mean, that's a. Interesting statement.

Yeah. So one of the things that leasing provides, it's on my list of seven or eight things, is it does the same thing in a used car as it does for a used car as it does for a new car, is that the lessee is going to get a better car for the same amount of money generally and the same thing in leasing in new cars. And so I think that in itself, what we wanted to do is take that one step further and move it down to even low mileage used cars. Because let's face it, the less mileage on a car, the, the more likely it's going to stay on the road. And that equals payment performance. It's kind of a simple formula. So brand worthy was we wanted to have a better experience, less headaches. Who wants to have their phone ring off the hook on Monday morning with 100 people with cars that aren't working?

That's brain damage.

Yeah.

One of the biggest hurdles I have is, and you see this, 20,000 loans. Was it hard to get the, the purchaser to have ownership over that car and take care of it? I mean, I know how I drive rentals, so I can only imagine the way my customers, I know how they drive my loaner cars too. So was that a problem?

Well, I guess that I'm not necessarily saying I'm coined this, but if someone has a subprime credit score, they're going to treat their car just like they treat their credit score like a garbage can. I mean, it just. They run them hard.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, that's my correlation.

So you didn't have the opinion of. I guess I'm thinking, man, I got six more months. This car's gotta make it six months. And then I turn it back in. I'm gonna just drive this thing till the wheels fall off. There's no way I'm doing X, Y or Z. If something goes wrong to this thing.

I think that's the same.

And then they create more problems. Right?

I think that's the same thing. You can infer that across all boards. Yeah, my comment covers that.

My guys don't put tires on anything either. Right.

Or brakes or breaks or even vacuum it out or throw out the garbage, you know, the fast food wrappers. And you know, it's, it's.

Was there anything else that surprised you from seeing those? Anything that you're like, wow, I did not think this was going to go that way.

Just what you just said, that. I mean that particularly on the repos, not the turn ins but the repos, every single one was amazing that you. You'd have to wear rubber boots and gloves to drive these cars. Why do you want to do this? I mean, it can't be enjoyable. I mean.

Out of all.

When I was young, I would spend Sunday afternoon cleaning my car. Like everything inside out, Wax, vacuum, armor all. Just the whole thing that never happened. Customers. No.

And you said rubber boots and gloves. And every dealer in here went back in their mind to that one repo that they got back in the day when they were the ones that had to get in the car with the rubber boots and gloves and drive it to the back and clean it out.

Exactly. We find the same thing in every repo. Lottery tickets and cigarettes. And they're all over the car.

Right.

But it goes with the territory. I think out of all those 20,000, there's got to be one thing that I think you would want everybody in here to take away. What would it be if you just said, hey, if you can do this one thing to your portfolio, it will change it.

Actually, it's. What I already said is don't write the bad deals, don't stretch for volume. Stick to what you know works and you know, let. Try to fill. If you need more volume, try to fill it in somewhere else because all you're gonna do is create headaches. You're not gonna win.

We are all so guilty of doing that. How do you.

But I did it. We did it.

So, I mean, what's something good that we can say every time we start to feel like we need more volume. Is it to breathe? I mean, what is it? What do you do?

Think again, defer the question till tomorrow. Ask yourself again.

Go put the rubber gloves on and get in that repo.

Yeah, there you go.

That'll bring you back to 50.

Make a few collection calls.

Yeah.

Is it easier to fire a customer with a leasing model? Because that's what we talk about, the headaches. Right. Maybe I stretched too far and I got into this guy, he's a headache. And 30 or 60 days into the loan, I realize this customers a real headache and I'd rather just. Sorry, Mr. Customer, has your down payment back. Give me my car. Is that easier with a lease than it is a traditional.

Why would you do that? Why don't you just repo them?

Well, I mean, because essentially that's it. I would like to fire you as a customer. Is it easier with a lease?

It is easier because that, you know, you have the disclosure laws and the timing stuff that you need to do in terms of pre notice and all that stuff you don't have to do. So it is easier. But in terms of you made it seem like a personal experience. It's not a personal experience. It's either they're paying or they're not paying. And if they're not paying, you repo them. I mean, it's that simple.

I take it personal.

Yeah, I know, exactly. These are all your best friends.

Yeah, we all know we have those. Every so often you have those headache customers where you're like, all right, Mr. Customer, I'm never going to make you happy. It's best we part ways instead of continuing this 36 month relationship. You know, bring the car back, you know, no harm, no foul. Seems like leasing just that much easier. A lease termination. On my side, there should be some sort of a lease termination on the dealership.

I don't know whether there is that.

Get it out of there. Hey everybody, sorry, one more break into the episode. Pastime gps, great sponsor of the podcast and a great GPS unit and a.

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Yeah. And remember to use our code that you can find in the show Notes to get one free unit when you order five. Last question we have for you, and this is one I'm super interested in. You had a really close relationship. Your mentor, I would say. What would you call him?

Well, I guess I'd like to sad to say I talked to a bunch of people, but my friend, my mentor for the last 14 years and industry icon and founder of Car right and Credit Acceptance, Don Foss passed away about a month ago. Most people probably knew that, but I actually did talk to some people that didn't. So I just wanted to let people know that. So it's been a sad month. But anyways, but don't be sad. He was a great man. He touched, you know, the credit acceptance motto where, you know, we change lives. You know, he personally touched, you know, many people and I know that there are many in this room that knew him and had relationships with him too. I had to share a couple stories with you that when early on after we had launched Car Ride, he was still the acting chairman at Credit Acceptance And I had a meeting with him at his office and it was pretty grand. It was suite, basically a normal office. It would be the whole company. And so I go into his office and I sit down at his desk. And most people, when they have these big grand desks, what not, they have this big gold plaque with their name and their title on it and whatnot. And on his desk he had this wood plaque that was very simple and it said, the harder I work, the luckier I get. And it sounds simple, but it really is. For those of you who didn't know, don't. It really kind of epitomized him because that includes having your priorities and taking care of them, communicating properly to your team or your customers, making the calls that you need to call and doing the follow up you need to do. And the other thing too that Don was really great at, he was super creative and he was always thinking about what he could do to improve the business or do something different or do something just completely different, like we're now in the car wash business. And that was all Don Foss wanted to do. That I think that the other thing is that for somebody that was so successful, he was really down to earth and very personable. And he had a saying too that I love that he would always give somebody a second chance, meaning his customers. And I really liked that. And I guess the final two things that I'd like to add on that is that he had a lot of compassion and he loved to bet on the underdog and give the underdog a chance. I mean, he did that. He touched a lot of people in that way. And the last thing, which was really the greatest thing that I'll miss is that there wasn't a day that I either talked to him on the phone or that we had a meeting or we went on a business trip looking for properties or whatnot. And that I didn't feel uplifted by his presence. You know, despite, you know, his. He was always. He made it fun. And I guess that's one thing I can. You, as leaders can share. You can be. He was, he was, he was very tough boss. He was very. He had a lot of expectations and that's part of the reason he was so successful. But I can tell you this, if you make it fun, your people will stretch for you. They'll do it.

Would you mind sharing the story you told Jeff and I about how Carite came to being?

Oh, that's a good story. So in 2009, I was introduced to Don and I had come up with at that point in time, a business plan to capitalize on the debt markets that were collapsing and buy all this performing debt that was being sold at pennies on the dollar. So I made this all complicated business plan put together and got a meeting with them. And he even bought me lunch. And I did this 45 minute pitch to him. And then at the end of that pitch, he said to me, what do you think about the car business, Lee? I said, well, I guess that when I was a CPA being in Detroit, I had automotive customers and whatnot, and I bought a lot of cars in my life, but I've really never been really in the retail automotive business. He said, and he gave me the pitch on car, right? And he said, you know, I'm looking to hire an executive to just launch this business plan. And then, you know, two weeks later, on September 1, 2010, bada bing. We were, we were, you know, we had. It was basically, basically just me. And we had two dealers that were delivering leases that month. We did 30 the first month. And then that's history. Here we are today.

You know, I read this book, a who, not how. Jeff told me about this a while back, but it just reminded me of that. And you said this even that he would get something in his mind and he would find the who to make it happen. And you were the who. And that's just such a neat story.

Yeah, it was unique in general. I mean, just kind of the coincidence of us meeting in our Talents and enthusiasm for what we were doing to overlap. I mean, it was, it was, it was a pleasure to work for him.

So interesting to be excited and enthusiastic and happy about what you do.

Right.

Attract people who are also enthusiastic and, you know, driven around you and create great things. You know, what a great example.

Are we going to take any questions or. Tim, do you want.

Should we take questions or what questions do you have for Lee? Well, we're catching everybody off.

I'll tell you for a second.

Yeah, I'll kick it off for you. Maybe kind of cool, because George is here, also one of the original LHPH guys. What was it like strategizing with George and Terry when you guys were building the program?

So actually it's pretty interesting. The LHPH was. Their product offering was different back then, and we provided all our own capital and the LHPH provided all of the lease technology, both in terms of contracts, but also in terms of processes, legal knowledge and whatnot. And I actually, it was great because I always viewed that the lhph, both, you know, George and Terry were, you know, part of my executive team. They just, I mean, they were not, they weren't directly on payroll, but I mean, we had weekly meetings and they, I mean, the amount of. Of knowledge that this organization has is unbelievable in the leasing business. And it really, really, I think, was a huge part of our success. Absolutely.

Did Don have any. I mean, he had never been in the leasing business before, right?

No. It's interesting that part of the reason that he launched, you know, Cartwright was that he. That actually CAC got into the leasing business right before the credit crunch. And at the point in time they had the credit crunch, they did an analysis, the bean counters in there, and they figured out that they were making X return on their retail installment contracts and they were making less return on the leases. I think they probably weren't doing the calculations right or they didn't have a big enough sample size to have meaningful information. And so they had to make a choice where they could put the capital. They got rid of the leasing business. So then come back a few years later. Don went back there, hey, listen, this is my idea. Not interested. He said, all right, well, I'm going to launch car.

So.

Super interesting. Yeah.

Any other questions this side of the room?

So you said the down payment and.

A shorter term you like.

So a shorter term that you.

Good question. So we made the choice. I didn't. I think that one person can maybe balance walk on the tightrope and do both leasing And a retail installment contract, I think an organization, you're asking for trouble. And we kept to our guns all along. We never did one in house retail installment contract ever during this period of time or car ride. Never did. And what we did instead was that if they couldn't, we would help them to try. And you know, because we're a full spectrum lender, we would try and get them to, you know, place their new loan somewhere else, either with the credit union or other lenders or. And this was thanks to LHPH that you can extend the lease for six months. And so if someone's residual was, you know, 4200 bucks and our average. I didn't, I forgot to mention this. Our average ACV was 13,000. So, you know, having the. I don't remember what the average residual is, but 4200 sounds about right. So then if their payment was 420 bucks, it would amortize down, you know, at 2. At the end of the extension, you can't extend it more than six months. Now their buyout is $1,600. They could get the cash. That's how we did it. And it became easy too. I mean if you do it with the retail installment contract, it becomes messy. You have to have a closing. The title has to transfer. You have to different, the accounting's different. It's just the extension is the way to go.

What's your strategy though? To get them in another car? And then just.

So, yeah, the answer would be we would take the trade all the time. As a matter of fact, we had one of the. Going back to one of Don's, all his ideas that he brought to the table is that we had an exchange policy that if you wanted to, after 12 months, if you made all your payments on time for 450 bucks, you could exchange into another car. So we were doing all sorts of. Yeah, we were putting people in cars all the time. And a car that's only been out for 12 months was not ready basically with a vacuum and a wash. So now I do have to, I want to make a caveat on that is that it's hard to make money on a lease that's only out on 12 months. So you were giving good. You were giving the customer something that was very valuable. But as it turns out, looking back after you run through the metrics, is that I don't think that I would recommend that it was a good idea. I mean it was great marketing and people did. It actually did get us to get more consumers to Adopt or to like the lease concept as opposed to buying. Because a lot of the Initially, a lot of the subprime people, no, I just want to buy the car. I don't want to lease. I want to buy the car, you know, because that was their choice back then. Initially, they were trained to do that. But anyways. Any more? Good question. So 12 years in thousands and thousands of leases.

You have multiple locations, multiple states.

From a leadership perspective, what keeps driving you and your team? So I think that part of that is, you know, Don's vision. You know, he originally wanted to get to, you know, 200 rooftops, and, you know, he wanted us as a team to take the company public. And, you know, we're, you know, we're only 30 days into it, and, you know, we're trying to figure out the new direction. I mean, it was easy. Up to a month ago, I reported Don. If I wanted to do something that was high level, I just call him up and okay, do it. And now the process of going through the estate is different. And I'd say right now we're kind of in a holding pattern, but we're, you know, we're, you know, our initial marching orders is it's business as usual. So that's, you know, the best I can give you today because I don't know any more than that.

Anybody else? Well, Lee, thank you for being with us.

Yeah, thank you very much.

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