#294 - See You At BHPH Dealer Forum 2023

You are listening to the Independent Dealer.

Podcast with hosts Luke Godwin and Jeff Watson.

Hello and welcome to the Independent Dealer Podcast brought to you this week by Buckeye Dealership Consulting. Luke, we've got a couple of good looking fellas here, familiar faces to the podcast. The Grand Pumbas over there at niada. What's going on?

And it's all good. Things are fantastic at Nieda. We're very excited about the upcoming Buy Here, Pay here Dealer forum. We just came off a great policy conference in Washington D.C. where we had over 70 dealers attend. We attended over 120 meetings on Capitol Hill and now we're moving on to Buy Here, Pay here Dealer form. Very excited about it.

And Jeff, that's the familiar voice of our CEO of niada, and that's Jeff Martin. And hey, I'm glad we finally landed on a name for this, for this convention. Jeff, can we stick with Buy Here, Pay here Dealer form yet? Everybody that listens knows I'm picking on this name forever, but I kind of like this one.

Yeah, well, we're, we're definitely going to stick with Buy Here, Pay here Dealer form through the rest of this year. Luke. No, I'm, I'm kidding.

Yeah, it's already been printed.

That's right. We just, we penciled it in. No, I, yeah, I think we all feel, we all feel very good about the direction selling.

I. And I think what's forum actually to me is, is a better word to use when referring to the kind of education that is going to go on here. It's, it's a form between dealers. It's not necessarily vendor. Well, it's not going to be benders selling to us. It's dealers educating dealers, which Jeff Watts and I are hugely just large advocates for. Can you kind of speak to how the agenda is going to lay out? And, and also we have David Brotherton with us who's going to talk here in a little bit. But this is, you know, Buy Here pay your dealers helping Buy Here Pay here dealers. So kind of talk to us about that.

Yeah, you hit the nail on the head though, Luke. And really when we came up with form, it started from the beginning when we were talking about what are we trying to deliver. And to your point, the idea is really dealers learning from dealers or peers sharing information with peers. The other thing that we did is we tried to be very respectful of the time that dealers have. Certainly you guys need to be at your dealership selling cars. So a very broad overview of the agenda. It starts on Monday November 13th at 3 o'.

Clock.

This should give people an opportunity to fly in that day, attend the general session from 3 o' clock to 5 o', clock, and then we're gonna have a reception after that so that we can spend some time with our vendors and our sponsors. And then the next day on Wednesday is really about dealer roundtables. And I know we're gonna get a little bit into the dealer roundtables, but they're all gonna be led by the moderators, are going to be dealers in the roundtables. And then we're going to get up on Wednesday and we're going to talk about some of the best practices and some of the best ideas that we heard in those roundtables and everybody will be able to, to, to fly out. It's going to end basically by 11 o' clock on Wednesday. And again, we talked a lot about just being very respectful of the amount of time we're asking dealers to come to an event like this.

That's super important. When there's so many small dealers out there who are one or two or three people and giving up a whole week, like you kind of have to do going to Vegas, it creates a, it creates a real vacuum at your dealership and, and being an indie, which is super easy to, to get in and out of. And really only you could be gone for 48 hours and get what you need. This is super helpful for small dealers out there. And I know there's a lot of small dealers that, that listen to us.

Yeah. And Luke, while we talk about this and, and we, we sell the difference and the reason you should be at this convention, I want to make sure everyone knows that's listening. This is November 13th through the 15th of 2023. So hopefully you're listening to this in a timely manner. You're getting on Niada.com you're finding the link, you're getting registered, you're jumping on Southwest, booking your flights while we chat about this. The, the convention Registration is super reasonable. 495. The hotel is like 200 bucks a night. And your flight is probably like, I don't know, three or four grand right now. Flights are freaking insane.

But.

I booked a flight yesterday to go here for 500 bucks, so it's not that bad.

Luke's on the outside of the plane, I'm on the inside of the plane. Mine was a little more expensive.

Jeff, you've got to stop flying private.

Is that the problem?

Find a commercial airline, dude.

I hope someday to make enough money that I can fly in the big planes with everyone else, but until then I'm just going to keep working. But so I want you guys to get on and start booking it because this is going to be different. David, talk to us about the whole roundtable situation because that's really the unique selling point of this convention is it's not like show up and just have someone yell at you for hours. Right. Like Luke normally does at his conventions. This is gonna be David May, David.

May yell at us too. So I don't know.

Yeah, this is going to be like us yelling at each other. So talk to us about how those forums are different, the round tables and what kind of information do we need to bring? Because I think that's really important is that as a dealer, you know, we need to show up, we need to have our A game, but you also need to bring some of your numbers, you need to know your stuff because we're going to be talking to each.

Other about it like, yeah, well, those are great questions. And to explain all that, I think I need to take a step back and going to start at the con. As we were conceiving the education agenda for this event, we didn't want it to be a convention. We already did one of those this year. We didn't want it to be boot camps. We do those all the time and they're great. You know, the virtual trainings we do, we do that all year round. For it to be something unique, we really wanted to take a look at how do we put together a forum that is going to bring something for owners, managers as well as their team. We basically wanted to give a reason for more than one person from the organization to attend. So to do that, we had to conceive something that was going to be unique, something different for us that we hadn't necessarily done before. And instead of nibbling around the edges with the occasional dealer presentation at a structured conference, we're going all in with round tables focused on different topics, with similar type dealers grouped together, similar type organizations grouped together. So we may be focusing on collections, we may be focusing on sales, we may be focusing on service. And in fact, we're going to focus on all three of those in various forms. Because the idea being that the majority of the people in our dealership sell cars, fix cars and collect money. And we have to tighten up processes, procedures, training techniques and people so that we can put our best foot forward in a challenging economic environment. So this is designed to give hands on feedback, one on one interaction with other Dealers just like yourselves, with finance managers, just like your finance managers, sales managers and your line employees. There literally is something for everyone to learn. We're also going to be doing some more structured presentations from the 20 group moderators. I know I'm doing one on collections in today's economy and boy, have I been getting postgraduate education that with all my dealers, I've been tied up for the last two weeks and just kind of holding people's hands and it's okay, it's okay. We've been talking about this for a year. We said this was going to happen. It hasn't been the funnest experience though, in our various environments. Last few months have been a challenge for some folks, but this really allows us to bring the focus on the nuts and bolts for the industry in a format we've never done before. And we're really excited to be able to bring it all together for a low cost environment for everyone attending. And Jeff, I'm gonna have to evidently give a class on how to buy a plane ticket. Mine's even less than Luke's, but.

Okay, now you guys are coming from the east coast. There's the west coast thing. I mean, I, I don't know what it is. I'm not going southwest, I swear.

Thing you like to do.

But, but, but David, you, you said a really good point there. And I think what's really awesome and timely about this is we all know that Buy here, Pay here is about to have its day, right? I mean, it's just the writing's on the wall. You guys. We've all been through enough cycles to know. Yes, David, you're speaking with all your dealers. It is painful right now. The water is going out, right? Like, we know the water's going out. We know that the waves are coming. Like that's just the cycle. So this is the time to get in, to get to these types of education events and be prepared. Right? Because we've all talked about it, we've all been. The real question is how deep will it be and how long will it last and will you be in a position to catch the wave when it, when it comes back in?

And I, I think this is what's so, I mean, this forum could not come at a more perfect time. You know, we have. DC has just fallen apart. Interest rates are still rising. The economy is, is really going south. Interest rates, you know, all this. So David, you and I have lived many of Buy here pay here cycles. I know we're going to discuss what's different in this cycle compared to others. But you said you've been working here lately with a bunch of dealers. Let's just get in nuts and bolts real quick. We have to be here because something's different with this one. What's different?

Oh, the big difference between this cycle and previous ones. And like you said, we've been through economy slowdown, we've been through heavy unemployment, we've bit. Which we're not seeing yet, but I think we're seeing the beginnings of it. The big difference is that none of us were adults the last time we had to deal with inflation at this level. And that throws a cat, that throws a really poor shade on everything. Our cars got very expensive, our borrowing costs are up. And the big problem that we have is that I'm getting, I get phone calls from dealers all the time, hey, my collections are getting out of control, My delinquencies up, my charge offs up. What can we do? What can we do? And the first thing I say is, first thing you can do is take a deep breath.

Yeah.

Because the losses you're going to take for the next six months, and this applies to every single buy here, pay here dealer is going to listen to this podcast. Those deals are already on your books.

Yeah, yeah, they're there.

So it's a question of bringing a customer focus and in some cases prolonged. Prolonging the agony instead of hurrying, you know, because some people like to that dreaded cleanup word. And the inflation's the big factor. To answer your original question, the big factor between previous, previous cycles in this one. It's uncharted territory for a lot of us. I mean like I was 10 years old the last time we had serious inflation like this and 1930. As much as I, as long as I've been in the industry, I was not doing this when I was 10.

What I find interesting about this is like 2008 was like a. It was like this six month, like just implosion. Right. It just happened so quick that we hit the bottom before we knew it. And then Covid was like a, I don't know, a six day implosion. As far as like the ride to the bottom. Right. This has been dragged out. This is going to be like David said, 18 month or 24 month or 36 month death by a thousand cuts.

This is Covid related. But all this is Covid related, Jeff. And that's right.

Right?

It is.

It's a factor of it. But I'm talking about the, the ride to the bottom from your portfolio standpoint like David's saying, you're going to take losses for a long time as this kind of is. It's a slow bleed. It's not like this overnight emergency that we all hit the rock bottom and then we build our way out. This is like, this could take out dealers just because they don't have the stomach to stomach it or because they can't, like David said, don't have the foresight to be like, I'm gonna go out and repo every single car right now because they're all late. It's like, no, maybe now's the time to be soft handed and just ride it out, you know, like, I think that's what we can learn from these types of get togethers. Hey, everybody, real quick to jump in. When you come out to convention, guaranteed there's going to be some of the fellows from Buckeye there. They're always there to support the association. So this is a great time of year to get your reinsurance company started. If you haven't already done it for.

Sure, I guarantee you Buckeye is going to be there and it's going to be November. If you haven't got that reinsurance set up or if you're looking for some new products to help you maybe, you know, defer some taxes, you got time to do it, it's not far out, get it done. Probably within a month they can get them set up, ready to roll and off you go. How many Jeff Martin I've been to the Tiada convention when, when you were boss over there. And I really enjoyed these round tables. How many different round tables can dealers expect? And I know they're going to cover every topic. I mean, I can be sitting next to a guy that's my size or am I going to be sitting next to a guy who's got 10, 20, $30 million on the book?

Yeah, no, the idea is, as I mentioned earlier, now we're going to try to group people in demographics that are similar in size. We're going to ask questions when you register, do you have a reconditioning facility? What's your average acv? So we're going to try to put people in groups that are fairly similar. Now obviously we're going to be respectful geographically where you're located at. And then as I. So the thought right now is we're going to have about seven different roundtables. You'll be in the roundtable for three hours and concurrently we're going to have these sessions going on that David had talked about where we're going to do a little bit deeper dive that our NIDA moderators are going to be putting on, but we're going to be very respectful of the size of the dealership and some of the other challenges that you may be facing in your dealership so that you can have similar conversations.

David, would you consider these round tables a 20 group light? I mean, is it going to be kind of the same experience if no dealers have ever been to a 20 group? Is it going to be similar.

Yeah, it's going to be very similar to kind of a, a general info slash, best idea session or, sorry, hot topic session and I in a 20 group format. But it's going to be for an extended period of time. Now, the dealer moderators are going to have their hit. They're going to have their hit lists of where to start. And you asked about what to bring. You don't need to necessarily bring your figures on paper, but you do need to know what's going on with your business. One of the things that we're going to provide to everyone is a booklet, which is this booklet. And we're being all coy about this, but I'll go ahead and tell you what it is. And Jeff's not shooting daggers at me, so I guess I'm okay to talk about it. We Recently, I mean, 2023 has been a big year for us, reintegrating two competing 20 group programs. Well, we're finally starting to see some of the, the bringing that to fruition from a data standpoint. I've been working on combining composites behind the scenes and I think we're going to be able to provide a benchmark that's been updated and takes the whole data set into account. Something that honestly, no company's been able to do for the last couple of years. We're going to have fresh updated buy here, pay here benchmarks. They won't be through December, unfortunately, which is where I love to do them. But it'll be close and we're going to have an excellent opportunity to really say, hey, for the first, first three quarters of 2023, this is the best snapshot we've had. And from this we can draw some trends from the data. And it's the biggest, most complete and cleanest data set I've ever had to work with from a benchmarking standpoint.

That's.

You obviously, obviously didn't put Luke's data in there because that is, he's on.

The excluded dealer list. It's fine. I mean, you don't clown him on the benchmark. He never takes losses. What am I supposed to do?

The data comes in and goes straight to the recycling bin. I like, I like, I like the.

Right, I like the right side of the book. That's the, that's where you're supposed to be.

Whatever I got to do to get there.

The bar is lower for you over there, Luke. I get that.

What about the expo hall? We didn't talk about that. Will there be an expo hall?

There's actually not an expo hall. We're trying something. Yeah, I know. Believe that. Believe it or not, as David mentioned earlier, you know, we, we're trying to not be a convention. We're trying to be something very different. We're going to have about 35 vendors and sponsors who will be there. We really want it to be a little bit more interactive with the vendors and the sponsors and give them an opportunity. You know, they have a lot to contribute our industry as well. We've got some unbelievably knowledgeable sponsors and vendors who are out there. And so we're going to have a dealer lounge. They're going to be a part of the dealer lounge. And so whether you're going to have your lunch or you're going to have your reception afterwards or anytime that we take a break, it's going to be in that facility. But it's not going to be going around visiting booth to booth or, you know, walking around looking at your shoes, trying not to make eye contact with anybody in the exhibit hall. It really. Exactly. Yes. It really should be about going in there and sharing ideas and hearing from the vendors. They will have an opportunity if, if they want to set it up where they can give, give a demo. But it really is more about a hands on interaction and exchange kind of what, what we didn't want to do is we didn't want to just try to sell out an expo, you know, and I see that all the time at convention. So you're walking through an expo, you're there, you know, trying to get some good information for your business, and all of a sudden you have two booths that are selling purses and nail polish because you wanted to try to sell. And we're really trying to change the mentality there to say we want the dealers and the vendors to both be getting something out of this. And when you get into a position, Jeff, where you're constantly trying to sell out an expo booth, I think sometimes you make some decisions based on financially, how is that expo going to do as opposed to what's best for the dealer and what's best for the vendor. And so we really took the position of what could we build that's best for the dealer and best for the vendor? And sometimes I feel like an exhibit hall takes away from that.

I, I totally agree. I think having vendors sitting in class sometimes with you as well brings up things that you, that you need to ask your vendor about. Vendor relations are super important, and Jeff and I talk about this a lot. They can help you guys and, and in this environment, I believe it's, it's less selly and there's probably the vendors there that we actually need, which are talking about not selling out conventions, convention halls. So I really like it.

So this is going to be less of like, less of like a zoo situation where I get to go and observe the vendors behind bars and pick which ones I go to. This is going to be more of like a wild safari situation where I am just in the elements with the vendors not knowing which one's going to eat me or which one I'm going to eat. You can't bother me while I'm eating. Regardless.

Yeah, Guerrilla warfare out there. Well, I don't know that that's the exact analogy that I would use. I'm going to continue to use the term a little bit more interactive and.

Oh, that's a good one. That's a good one.

If that's what you meant by that analogy.

Yeah.

Your question is. Yes, it's going to be more interactive.

I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, let's get real. It's. It's impossible to put something like this on without vendor support.

Yeah. I don't know.

You guys are going to go bankrupt. That's crazy.

Yeah.

Because we can't, we can't pay what it would cost. I mean, dealers can't pay what it would cost without the vendors there to help with that being said, just make sure that you, you talk to the vendors you're currently using, see if they're going to be here, and then get together and sit down with them. I'm sure they'll buy you a drink or buy you some lunch or something and, and talk to them about some issues you're having with your, with your software or with a GPS you're using or whatever, because this is the time to do it. Not only you're kind of going above your current reps level. Right. And you're going to national sales reps or to the actual. To the founder.

Yeah, the vp, Sometimes the founder. A Lot of the founders show up. Right. We get a lot of traction talking to the actual CEO. And you mentioned is there going to be a, is there a demo room or a pitch room? I mean, is there a place I could go with these vendors and actually get a demo?

No. What we've communicated to them is that if they wanted to bring something like a laptop and they wanted to set that up and they wanted to set a demo up, certainly there's opportunity to do that in the dealer lounge. Okay, cool. But, but no, there's not going to be a specific place where, where we're going to say you're required to go off and visit with this dealer or with this vendor. Yeah, it really is more about, you know, having that opportunity. And I'll say this too, not only the opportunity to visit with them, they have a lot to, to provide to the industry. And, and I think it's important to go and talk to each one of the sponsors and the vendors that are there. This ecosystem is important. You know, Luke, you had mentioned that, that we need them to be able to put the, the convention on and that's absolutely true. They, they do yeoman's work and supporting the industry and I can't say enough good things about them. On the flip side, they need you guys to be in business as well. Right. And so when we were originally building this, that's again, kind of the principle of what we were talking about is how do we get the right people together? And we feel like that in this. And a lot of it has to do with the, the industry that, I mean, the, the environment that we're in right now. I mean, it's a challenging time and people are looking for answers and solutions and we believe a lot of these vendors can bring those answers and solutions to this format for sure. I want to go back to one thing real quick, if you guys don't mind. I also want to talk just a little bit about who some of the, the, some of the dealer moderators are going to be. But you know, when you were talking about the, the challenging time that we have, some of it is the perfect storm of the lack of inventory as well. And I think what people, you know, sometimes forget is when we went through Cash for Clunkers, you know, you don't replace those vehicles that fall to our independent dealers, and a lot of them fall to the buy here, pay here dealers. You know, at that time, the average age of a vehicle was about nine years. At the average age of a vehicle on the road, the average age of a vehicle now is a little over 12 and a half years. That's still the fallout from Cash for Clunkers. And when we see states like Colorado, who is introducing a cash for Clunkers type piece of legislation that's going to take more inventory off the road, and it doesn't take inventory off the road and just affect us tomorrow morning and 12 months later, that's corrected. This is the reason that we're seeing vehicles that are on the road so long is because of the lack of inventory. And the more we start taking these vehicles off, we have to be very, very cognizant of that. Cognizant of that. And work with our legislators to make sure that they understand when they introduce legislation that takes vehicles off the road, it creates a significant problem for our independent dealers and ultimately it creates a significant problem for our consumers for sure.

And, and we're gonna, you know, this cycle is not going to end now. And if they built a lot less cars in 2020 and 2021 and 2022, so if you don't think this is going to affect the independent dealer six and seven years from now, you're mistaken. And we've got to prepare now. And that's the reason you got to go to these things. You got to figure out what to do. You got to get ahead of it. Jeff, we were talking about vendors and why it's so important to talk to vendors when you're at a convention or at a forum. And prominent is one of those you need to talk to. I was talking to you earlier about needing cash. Business has gotten really good this year and if we don't make these relationships and develop these relationships at forums and conferences, it's hard to. It's hard to get going when you need them, right?

Yeah. And it's going to be a unique format where the vendors are just kind of out and about. So you're going to be able to have real one on one conversations with these guys, whether it's, you know, a sales rep or a VP or the CEO of companies like Primal and guarantee you the guys are going to be out there. And, and it's. This is the time to get those relationships established because you will need it if you don't already.

Yeah, everybody needs cash and Primal is there to help.

We're not going to talk about compliance. At this particular event. We purposely decided that we were not going to talk about compliance, but being actively involved and you guys know having those conversations with other dealers and networking outside of the classroom is extremely important. And I think issues like this do need to be discussed so that we make sure that we're not only being the voice for the industry, but that we're educating legislators as well. I don't want to go too far down that road, but I just wanted to mention that when you guys were talking about the state that the industry is in, it's a little bit of a perfect storm when so many vehicles have been taken off the road in the last couple of years and. Or lack of vehicles being built anyway.

And the new ones aren't affordable, that's for sure. So it's still. It's just an afford. There's not an affordable car.

Yeah, in a weird way, it's a, it's a bit of a perfect storm, you know. And back to David's point, you know, now you've got interest rates that we're all having to deal with, whether you're borrowing money or you're a consumer who's looking to, to get into a vehicle.

Yeah. And Jeff, you also wanted to mention some of the people who are moderating. I know there's a, there's a lot of great dealers out there, and I know you've put those together.

Yeah, absolutely. I appreciate that. So Daniel Chu, Jim Wright and Don Griffin are going to be on our general session. We don't have a keynote speaker coming in again, just kind of saying we really wanted to focus on the industry. We, we felt like you guys are motivated enough. We didn't need to have a motivational speaker come in. So the general session is going to be those three individuals and then the moderators that we currently have lined up include Luke Godwin. Thank you very much, Luke. Eddie Hale, Chad Randash, Mark Jones, Tracy Myers, Ben Libby, Dan Francis. Kind of some of the who's who in buy here pay here. We just have a number of great dealers out there and we felt like that they had a lot to contribute to an education program like this. So just wanted to kind of mention those individuals and certainly thank them for their support.

Yeah, it's good. It's going to be great. I can't wait. I love interacting with dealers on, on that level. You know, we get to talk to dealers all the time this way, but we don't get the feedback the other way. So sitting there, sitting across from them, speaking to them and, and figuring out, you know, what their needs are, things that we can use. I mean, I'm gonna be selfish about this, but the things we pick up out there are things that we can use to, to do better podcasts as well, right, Jeff?

Yeah. Don't put me on a roundtable with Luke. It'll, it'll turn into like a, an octagon, like a chain link octagon type fight. I think if we end up on the same roundtable, so what?

And, and Dave, a number of our.

People that have registered have said the same thing.

So Luke's just, Luke's got a single chair with a sign above him, just hanging out by himself.

We may, I may have been born at night. I wasn't born last night that you can count that one as being a solid. You guys won't be in the same round table.

David, what, what benefit do we get by bringing our staff to the this convention? And who should we bring? You see so many staff come to 20 groups. Who should we bring and why should we bring them?

The focus on this is not high level nosebleed and it's also not 100% in the trenches. There is something for everyone here. There is questions that we all have. There are things that all of our operator, every operator has at every level, every size and their staff all have the same questions too, believe me. How to navigate this, how to improve customer service, how much is too much? These are questions we all ask, but we all have different perspectives on both the input and the answers. So if you've got, if you're built on around the notion of improving blocking and tackling in your dealership, then there really isn't a limit as to who you can bring. I mean, all right, there may not be something for a detailer, but an overall, hey, this is what the folks around the industry are doing to deal with the same problems you're having. The amount of exposure and understanding you get when you are not alone, the networking you get to see. It's one of the reasons that our management groups work so well is we get service managers interacting with service managers, we get finance managers interacting with finance managers. And it really adds that blocking and tackling perspective to everything we're doing it. This is a tremendously well timed opportunity and there's going to be a lot to learn. All you have to do show up.

Yeah, I tell you, my, my service manager who's in a service group, he, he speaks to other service managers, if not two, three, four, five times a week, talking about new ways to skin the cat, talking about new products we need and new offerings for our customers. So if you're not in a 20 group, I mean, you should bring them anyway, but you definitely should bring them because there's so much to learn and so many people to meet so that you can learn more.

Cool guys. Any final closing statements, remarks? Hard sell.

Yeah, no, just look forward to seeing everybody out there. You know, I'll say you guys had mentioned that you learn things and you have opportunities to bring ideas back for your podcast. And I also want to thank you for having David and David and I on today and certainly appreciate what you guys do for the industry. But as an association, we learn things too. And so as we sit in on these roundtables and we listen to the conversations that you all are having, we listen to the challenges that. That you are having, it helps us provide a better association for you guys. So certainly look forward to seeing everybody out there and encourage you to get on and register before. Actually October 13th, next Friday is the early bird deadline.

So it'll go up $100 on next Friday, is that correct? So the. It's 495 now. It will be 595 then. Do we still have plenty of hotel rooms? Everything good there?

There are plenty of hotel rooms.

The.

The registration does go up a hundred dollars next Friday. I understand flights go up $3,000 next Friday, so you're going to want to make sure and get that taken care of pretty quick as well.

Jet fuel. Jet fuel is so expensive these days.

Actually, actually what I did is when I was booking our net jets, I. I paid my deposit and then I charged the rest to Jefferson.

What happened? I thought when Jeff, I thought when Jeff said that for sure he was bringing 12 people to the. The dealer form, I was excited about it.

Yeah, I guess for some reason everyone wants to get out of India and no one wants to go into Indy. I don't know, the flights or something. Something's right there.

But.

Okay, guys, enough joking aside though. But seriously, get there, Come out on Sunday, Text Luke and I, let's hang out Monday morning. We're all going to get a bunch of guys together and go race car driving or scooter, I don't know, hiking or.

We're gonna do. We're gonna do something. I don't know there's much hiking in Indy, but we are going to do something Monday morning, kind of a podcast get together. So come on out, let's have fun.

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