#305 - How I Built This w/ Greg Barrett

You are listening to the Independent Dealer podcast with hosts Luke Godwin and Jeff Watson.

Glad to have you here, Greg. Introduce yourself to everyone.

Yeah, Greg Barrett. Guys, thanks first of all again, thanks for having me. Great podcast you guys have here. So we, we've got as you guys stated, eight total stores, seven in Ohio, Northern Ohio, one in Charlotte, North Carolina. The one in Charlotte, North Carolina is, I will take zero credit for that is all. Our partner Sean that's down there does 100% of the work and a really nice job.

But.

Yeah, been at it for a little over 25 years. You know, you guys asked for a little history. I don't know too many car guys that spend a ton of time in college. So my mom avoided that big debt for me and said you are not going to do well in school. Let's go, let's go get you a job. And I was in Milford, Michigan. I worked for General Motors at their proving grounds which was, was pretty neat. And quickly realized that corporate America was not for me. My dad lived in Ohio and I moved here and good family friend of ours had a Buy Rider franchise and that was in 98. And I started selling cars for Buy Rider. And I was always a pretty altruistic person. I really enjoyed helping people and I grew up dirt poor. So making money in the car business was also attractive and without boring you with the rest of the details. My business partner called me in 03. I was working for a family business and asked me if I wanted a bigger challenge. And him and I partnered up. And our first store was in September of 2003. We opened our Akron location. Took a lot of bumps and bruises, learned a lot along the way. It's just, it's kind of growing.

Can we stop you there in O3? So you were first. So you were working at the proving grounds in it I guess in Michigan. What were you doing for GM at the time?

So I was working in their fleet department. You want to talk about a terrible idea? So I was kind of a degenerate 18 year old kid. And they gave us, they gave us the 3:30 to 8:30 shift. All management left at 5:30. And we had the keys to four 500 prototypes.

So what'd you do, just drive them around? Trying to.

Which is kind of why that career ended abruptly. Yeah, man. I mean we had, I mean they had 18 racetracks on the, on the property. I mean this was a. If you've ever been to the proving grounds, if you're ever in Milford, Michigan, check it out. It's It's a, it's that they've got their own police, their own fire, their own water. Really unique experience. So, yeah, we were, that's what we did. We just moved cars from lot to lot from different engineering facilities and had a lot of fun.

So, yeah, we, we were trying to guess the car you were in, and it's a GM and it's performance. Gm.

Do you.

Are you a GM guy because you were able to, you know, drive those cars and, and started your career in that?

No, I am. I was, you know, growing up in Michigan. I will tell you that it is, you know, Ford or gm and people are pretty brute about that. And I was a GM guy for a long time. And when I started having kids in 2010, GM, I'm six foot five.

They're.

They're trucks and SUVs that. The cab room stunk. You could put a car seat behind me driving. And I bought a Ford pickup and that's. I drive a F350 every day. Okay.

All right. So. So you, you, you had too much fun at the proving grounds. You left there. You went to Ohio when. And you kind of said you started working at the JD By Rider store. How long were you there selling cars?

I was there for two and a half years.

Okay, and did you stay in the car business and then this your business partner call you or. Or had you gone to do something else in between?

So I was, I had, I had always, you know, on every other weekend I'd come down to Ohio and spend some time with my dad, and he always had an auto repair shop, small car lot or a gas station, or a combination of the three. And we, I had spent probably about a solid six, eight months working for him, running a very small car dealership at that time. And I don't know if any of you have ever worked for family, but it's a. That's a death sentence for somebody.

Yes, it is. I'm still doing it. Working with family, I should say. Yeah, I get to working with the dad. It's. It's tough.

Yeah, it was. It was a challenge.

So when the. So when. So when the partner, this business partner reached out to you, you were selling cars, working at a family place. Did you. Did you guys go straight into an. To buy a JD By Rider franchise? Or did you start independent before you got into the JD By Rider system?

Straight into Buy Rider. So I had, I met Chris when we were. Him and I both worked for the same Buy Rider. It's funny, one of the guys that Was at the meeting I was just at, was the son of the guy that we used to work for, still very close with them and they had eight stores at the time, really respected the family. And that's where I was introduced to Chris. So when he called me, just his exact words, I'll never forget he ready to. Are you ready for a real challenge? Because what you're doing is really not a challenge. And he was right by riders. This was a challenge.

Well, so I mean when you started a buy rider franchise on your own, and I know that, that that area of the country, that's kind of, you know, kind of where they started. Did it take a lot of capital to invest to open up it, open up the store or was it. Did they kind of have a. A way for you to do it without a huge amount of money to start with?

So when I, when I went to work for Chris, I was not an investor at the time. So I worked for Chris for two years before we A grew and B, I became a partner. However. Yes, it's really capital intensive. I mean it's. It was in more expensive then. And him and I had known a gentleman that actually was an investor in the firewriter that we worked for. Guy by the name of Roy Lewis, still alive today, in his late 80s, Wonderful man, opened up a. He was one of the oldest Nissan dealers in Ohio, was an investor in the business and we ended up buying him out later on.

That's the. That that you were able to start like that. So three, you open up, you and Chris, you know, start the first one. And you said it took a little while to. To figure it out and get it going. You know, what's the next step? When did store two appear?

Store two appeared in 2005. It was another opportunity and it was, it was kind of strange. The guy who we worked for, he. He loved to sell cars. And that's great in retail. Not always the greatest plan and buy here, pay here. And they couldn't outrun, you know, the sales pace, just couldn't outrun the charge off. And so unfortunately they started going out of business. And that's how we got the opportunity with the Mansfield location. And that was in 2005. It had some personnel, so it made it a little bit easier. We hired the rest, trained the rest and kind of moved along.

So it sounds like. And is that kind of the pattern if we fast forward a few more years? Are you every couple of years picking up a location or are you starting any of these? Are you picking up ones that maybe have floundered. And, and that definitely leads me to the point of the turnaround situation. That sounds super interesting, but what was the. What was the progress for picking these stores up?

Yeah, they were all. Every store that we have was run by somebody that drove it straight into the ground.

Wow.

So it was a. If the buy here, pay here market's not challenging enough, it's even more challenging when you're hitched to a. A reputation where customer service wasn't there, integrity wasn't always there.

You probably got some bad apples running around that you had to give us that strategy. Why. Why go in and try to pick up a dead. You know, why pick up a project car? You know, why buy something with a bad engine and a bad transmission?

It was cheaper. The facility was. They had signs. I mean, it was. Yeah, I mean, it just made sense.

So then what's the playbook? What's the playbook when you go, yeah, Greg, what.

When you walk into it, what's the first thing you do? And is it the same thing every time?

Man, it's. It's at. We're a big culture company and we've always been really tight with the staff. And you know, I always say today it's the shittiest, crappiest, sorry thing about growing is, you know, you get. The more you grow, the more locations you have, the further away you get from those touch points with all your people. But, you know, really, the. The strategy for us with growing was finding somebody that obviously wanted to work hard, B had an immense amount of ownership in the model, the Byrider model, and wanted to do it better than anybody else. And so we just, man, we would. We always look to hire somebody that had never made the kind of money we were willing to pay them, that never had the opportunity that we were going to provide them. And man, I'm not going to tell you that we've never hired anyone with good credit, but I will tell you the vast majority have bad credit because we wanted them to. We wanted them to be able to relate to the. To our guests, to our customers.

Ho, ho, ho, Jeff.

Ho, ho.

It's tax time. I know you like it. It's good to be there.

It is Christmas time and tax time, so that means it's the fourth quarter program. I spent all morning training our sales staff on how to do the fourth quarter program for our preferred customers. Felt you. If you've got a loan with us, if you've got an account you want to upgrade, get a second vehicle, it's A great opportunity for those folks where they don't have any money because Christmas is coming. And hopefully they've given all the extra money to you to keep current on their car payment. But they can do a deferred dow with their fourth quarter estimate of their upcoming tax return.

Yeah.

And if you can't, if you can't stomach that, get ready for the first quarter because I know that I've had a couple slow Januarys, but this January we're going to be wide open and we're going to use tax max to make that happen.

So when you pick up these locations is that are you typically moving over like a key manager from a current store so that the culture transfers or are these mostly like new location, new hire and I'm going to train them up to. To work Even though they're 30 or 50 miles away from the main store?

No. So luckily all of our stores even today are from my house. I can be at any of our stores and in. I can be at five of them in 40 minutes. One of them is an hour and a half away. And I've been to Charlotte twice, which speaks volumes for Sean. So I think that when we were small and I would call small up through five stores we. We just hired. We just lived in that store for 90 days to six months. You know, the culture was great at the first store. The leadership was good, the staff was fantastic. And so we really were able to mirror, you know, store two to store one because we would just dedicate the amount of time that we'd go spend, you know, in that rooftop for X amount of time.

That sounds so interesting to me. What what did you with these models and when you bring on a new store is each store kind of like are they a standalone do they have their own, you know buyers recon sales collections or is it. Do you do like recon from a central location and send cars out? What's. What's kind of the model on the logistics.

So if you fast forward to today there are some minor differences from when we started. But at every one of our locations today there is full sales, full service for full finance.

Wow.

Under. Under one roof. Yeah, we're. That's one of the things that you know, I'll be forever grateful that by rider taught us and then somehow abandoned but is man it is. It's a relationship like it is 100% about, you know that one on one relationship with the customer. And so we adopted the call it cradle to grave sales collections under one roof and never left.

Wow. So you have seven locations within 30, 45 minutes of each other. Is that. All have their own service centers, repair shops, equipment.

Yeah. Is that recon too?

Recon too. Now we do have a reconditioning center that we opened two years ago.

Okay.

We bought a, we bought a new car store. New car building, I should say. It was a new car store that's fairly close to us right on the interstate. And we had a location there and the traffic counts there are absurd, but it's, you know, it's a four lane road where the speed limit's 55 and everybody thinks it says 75. And I think that while the location was great, it was just terrible for, for us. And we bought the location. So we put a paint booth in there. We put a, you know, redid the service department. And if you fast forward to today, we've got. My partner is there every day. We've got a service manager, a service assistant, five techs, five body techs, a detailer and our controller. And it's ish, our corporate office. But I'm in a, I'm in a different store every day.

That's super interesting. You would think that collections in a centralized location would save you a lot of money. But it may on the other hand cost you a lot of money because you don't get the hands on with the customer. I guess that's what you're seeing by being in the store and then having. I can see why you would have recon at one facility. But I guess having warranty repair and things like that at. On, on site with each store is very. It helps with collection, it helps with, with that. Is that, is that what you see?

Yeah, it's, you know, I always, I interviewed three people this morning and I feel like a broken record. I've done a lot of interviewing lately, but I, you know, I always talk about the same things with our, our, the folks that we're interviewing is. It's like, yeah, you're interviewing for sales, yes, you're interviewing for service and for finance. But really it's. We're in education and problem solving is all we do all day long. And I think that with that at our core, having everything under one roof is super helpful purely because it's. We've, we've got a very good culture surrounding. It's everybody's job in its advancement. Like there's, you know, you have the start line and the finish line and our goal is to get them to the finish line. So I don't care who's, who's answering the phone or what you're doing. But we've got to be ready to solve a problem at all times.

That is a big. If you can hire people in buy here pay here that understand that problem solving is, is our number one asset in our business, then you can make money and buy your pay here, right? If you don't, if everybody, if everybody thinks that, oh no, if a salesperson thinks that, oh no helping a customer figure out the service or the collection issue it and their problem, you're not going to have a good culture and you're not going to have good payers, right?

No, that is absolutely correct. And we've, you know, over the years, I can tell you, we've learned the hard way. You know, there's been. We had our store at our, our Worcester store. We had opened two stores at the same time and we couldn't spend as much time in one store. And I think we all know in this business a, you know, one bad apple can cause a, a lot of big problems. And it was so bad that, that we realized it's man, it is genuinely all about the people and good or bad.

Yeah, for sure. It's you. You can't even get rid of the bad person fast enough, right?

No.

I want to know it. You say, you know, the culture and obviously it looks like having the whole A to B type, the whole, you know, recon, sales, collections, everything in each location was crucial. I'm really curious, when you went in and you, you took those dying locations, was there anything else that made it so you could make those locations successful when the old operator wasn't making them successful? I mean, did you change anything else as far as the deal structure, the advertising, the, you know, put up big inflatable gorillas. What was it that made those work for you?

Yeah, I, it was man, honestly, it was all culture. It was just a hundred percent grit and determination to recondition. You know, I think I told people all the time, working for an operation that sucks prior to was probably the best thing that ever happened. I mean, I think you go work for the greatest operation ever. A, I might have still been there. B, you just, you don't learn as much. And so when we started to open our stores, we were like, well, if we don't want to go bankrupt, let's not do this, let's not do that. You know, you talked about deal structure. We have been deal structure miser since day one. I mean, we pay attention to expenses, we pay attention to deal structure really. Well, I Mean, I can tell you that in between down payment and deferred down payment, we're still 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, you know, in buy Rider at getting it up front, getting it early, getting them committed, and building that relationship to get them to advance.

Hey, real quick, make sure you have your reinsurance company set up right now with Buckeye. Fun fact, Luke. I'm actually going through the process right now. So as long as we've had Buckeye as a sponsor, I have not actually been using their service. Even though I love the guys and they give me all sorts of advice and I attend everything they do. I'm actually now switching my reinsurance company over to Buckeye. So it's been a. It's been a. A fairly painless process thus far. So I'll keep you guys updated on how it goes. But switching from one reinsurance company to another, there are some nuances, but I don't think it's quite as scary as a lot of people think.

No, I went through it the first of this year. I moved from someone I'd been with for 10 years and. And moved to Buckeye. And I can tell you this. They made it so easy. Jason and Brett and Sean and. And Rob, everybody over there, they really. They go all out. They help you get it done. Don't be afraid of it. It's not a big deal. You can answer this if you want to, but you don't have to. Someone like you, you've been with JD by writer since. Since the beginning. Why not go out on your own to start with, number one and number two, why. Why stay with them this long?

So I will. Yeah, man, that's a great question. And I don't have a problem answering that at all. We got into this business and didn't have the playbook. You know, I was 24 years old when I got into this business. And you don't have the playbook. I think that it's a litigious business. There's a lot to worry about. There's a lot of laws. There's a lot of regulation. We liked the knowledge in the playbook that they gave you. You know, I give people this example all the time. I'm on the dealer board for Buy Rider, and there's, you know, the tenure in our franchisee crew is. It's deep. I mean, it's. The guys on the board have. We've got a combined 200 years in this business, and we've all became, you know, I think the student becomes the teacher at some Point. And I'm bought. I mean, at this point we've got 25 years in marketing pumped into Buy Rider and I just genuinely believe in the brand. Could we go do it on our own and make more money? Oh, probably. We pay a lot of money in royalties. But you're not going to learn how to do it better with a better playbook and more support than buyer has. Has provided over the years.

So, so I was, we mentioned this in one of our previous meetings, Luke and I were together and that the, obviously the Buy Rider corporate stores are kind of hitting a speed bump. It sounds like where, where Buy Rider gives you the proprietary type software. I think, you know, your DMS is all built internally. Is that something where, I mean, do you back that file up every single night not knowing if it's going to turn on in the morning?

No.

Okay. There's like, there's, there's fail safes in there from a corporate level that if they turn the lights off, you're still safe. Your, your, your livelihood, your structure, your portfolio and everything can function regardless. I'm guessing.

Yes and no. I think that I'm probably just more in tune with what's really going on and, and more comfortable with the situation.

Okay, yeah, that's fair. That's fair for sure.

Like from the outside looking in, you'd see something and be like, oh, it's going to be the next, you know, American Car center or whatever. One of these joints that just close the doors at five o' clock on a Friday. Right. You have very, very inside, intimate knowledge of how healthy the corporate store is and, and all the kind of happenings there on the backside, I'm sure.

Yeah. I mean, I think without talking too far out of school and it's, you know, I gotta tread lightly. But I think that, you know, Buy Rider got into the balance sheet business instead of just being a, you know, a franchisor. And the reality is they should have just been a franchisor. That's what the family did so well for so many years. And I think that that's, that was the, that was the downfall, so to speak. They detached all those things that I just talked about, gave us all that success. They detached from all of that. You know, they took the people out of the stores, they took, they took the relationship out of the customer. They were, you know, their collections from all over the place and you know, I think the intentions were good. The results, not so much.

I have a question about that because, you know, I don't, Jeff, I don't think we've spoken to anyone that, that, that is in the situation that you are, Greg. And I often wonder this because it seems like what makes our business work is culture. And you're your definite, you know, your success story of the, of the culture and how it works. How does a company like Drive Time do it? Because there's, there's not family in the store. How can it work for them and then not work for the other people like we just mentioned that have been out of business and you know, in, in corporate, by rider and in other corporations like that?

Man, that's a great question. I'm going to guess that they've just. I mean, I think volume helps. I think volume in the right fashion helps. And I'm sure I don't know a ton about Drive Time, but I'm sure that they've got some policies, processes and procedures that they train and hold accountable really well. I mean, and nobody grows at that rate and has the success that they've had without something. And I think that there are plenty of successful businesses that have shitty cultures. But the reality is it's man, the, in the buy. And I think that they've also gotten away from deep subprime. You know, I think that they're, they're, I don't think they're as deep as they once were and they're certainly not as deep as we are.

Yeah, I think so. I think that the move into the higher inventory that they did, it kind of takes you out of the, out of that deep subprime. How big are you now? Like how many accounts do y' all have and you know, volume?

We've got about, we've got about 62 million in receivables and we've got 50450 exchange accounts.

How many people do y' all have total working for you?

107.

And you know that number off top of your head? I love that.

Well, I, I was doing projections all day and so I've been, I've been living in that. But I would have said 110 before I sat down this morning.

Oh yeah, I gotta, gotta.

That's a tough time of year to trim that, huh?

What Arby, are you CEO? Are you CEO of emeritus? What kind of, what is your role?

Dayto day coo. I run day to day operations. I run, I underwrite half of our stores. We man, I'm, I'm a, I'm a firefighter. Sometimes I'm a policeman. You know the drill. I mean it's.

Yes, I Do on a bad day.

I'll tell you, if we didn't have employees and customers, this would be a great business.

I tell Luke that all the time. I said we should have started something that had no customers, no products that were out driving around, trying to smash into each other. They're controlled explosions. You're heating them up, you're cooling them down, and people are ripping them 90 miles down the freeway with no insurance. It's like the craziest.

Yeah, it's my favorite thing is when I get passed by a customer. We just sold a car, too, with our sticker on the back going 95 miles an hour down the highway, in and out of traffic.

Yeah, it's like, right, isn't it?

I wait for the day when I get. When I get into an accident with one of my own customers. That's got to be some sort of milestone or an award for somebody when they get t boned by someone with their plates, their license plate frame or something.

Please, please. Knock on wood, please.

Oh, yeah.

And you know, Jeff, Santa brings cash sometimes, too, and. And we all need cash. Do you need some?

I would prefer the Santa Claus only brought cash. I just. I find that I have no need for anything else but money these days. Yeah. So the guys at primaland. Ho, ho, ho. They. They could be your Santa Claus and bring you money if you need it.

Yeah, Those guys will help you out. They'll look at your books. They'll figure out if you actually need cash or what you could do to be better at managing the cash you have. But if you need cash, you can't wait. You have to be prepared for it. You have to know. You have to see it coming. I knew I was gonna need cash this year. And, Jeff, I thought I had enough. Guess what? I didn't have enough. So be prepared. Call Promelin. They will help you figure it out.

So, Greg, I mean, you've made a bunch, a bunch of great decisions. Is there anything that you would say is maybe a misstep or somewhere, maybe you didn't, like, you didn't quite take advantage of the situation? Like, you know, maybe you just put one foot in instead of jumping in full speed? Anything like that?

Yeah, I would say no. No. But yes, there's. There's a caveat to that. And I would say no because I think we're pretty firm believers in, you know, the. The problems that you encounter, the bad decisions you make. If you're open to learning a lesson and adapting quickly and changing, it's what got us to where we are today. And I'm, I'm kind of a quirky believer and everything happens for a reason. So I can tell you that one of the biggest mistakes we ever made was deciding that we're car guys at heart. And we got into the high end car business probably in 2012 and we started wholesaling Porsches, Ferraris, Lamborghinis and that was a ton of fun. And it introduced like this whole new landscape and we didn't make a dime and our buy rider suffered and we, I mean it, we kept it open for a year, we wound it down, no catastrophes. But I, you know, I think I remember Roy Lewis telling us this when we got into this business. He said, you know, figure out what you do and do it well. You can only do one thing really well. And while I, I would disagree with that in some areas, when you're in buy here, pay here, if there are people that do multiple things and do it really well, God bless them, I.

Could, yeah, I totally agree. I have been distracted and my dad is the worst at getting distracted. He loves classic cars, he gets distracted there. But I tell you, if I would have put all my effort into this business from day one and not gotten sidetracked by trying to retail cars or do this or that, how much further I would be ahead right now is kind of mind blowing. And there's a lot to be said because what we do, my wife always reminds me this, and she of course is the smartest person I know. She listens every week too. But if, Luke, you're not running one business, you're running like six or seven businesses. And so to think that you don't have enough going on is ridiculous because we're buying the cars, we're recon in the cars, we're selling the cars or financing the cars. Then we have cpi, then we have the warranty company. There's all this going on. It's not just one business, right?

No, it's. It is. This business is not for everybody. And I think, you know, that really lends credence to being a buy rider franchise. You know, you guys, God bless you. I know you guys run really, really good operations and could again, could we have done it? Yeah, I just feel like that curve would have been so much steeper and so much longer and so much more expensive.

Oh yeah. I definitely know when I got in, in 05, there was a lot of learning curve between 05 and 08 in 2010. Right. A lot of lost money, a lot of bad debt. Where I'd be further ahead. Greg, to wrap this up, give, give the dealers listening any, any advice or words of wisdom or, you know, the things you did do right in your career that you think dealers should follow.

Man, I think that, you know, I got a really good opportunity to partner up with Chris and I, you know, I made mention to this earlier. I didn't have. I had a wonderful family growing up, but not a. No money. My poor mother made $9,000 a year. And so when I got this opportunity, I took it seriously. And I've given, we've given so many wonderful opportunities to staff members that were making 10, 12 bucks an hour that a year later made 75, $80,000. We pay our people really well and we treat our people even better. And that would be literally my one piece of advice. I'm one guy. I got seven locations. My business partner is, you know, at this stage in his life is able to. To relax a little bit more, which means I can't relax as much. I need every single one of those people. I was talking to one of my technicians yesterday and he's. I was doing projections and he came in to say hi and I was chit chatting with him and he's like, oh man, numbers. I am no good at numbers. And I said, well, taurine, the good news is I can't fix cars. So between the two of us, we make world go round. And I think it's, it's. I couldn't speak enough and I could talk for another hour about how incredible our people are. It's 100% our staff.

That is, that is something great to talk about and to discuss right here around Christmas time how great your people are and what they do for us and hopefully we do the same thing for them. Jeff, that's a great place to end.

Is. It is. Greg, thank you. Thanks so much for your time. Really appreciate it, guys.

Thanks for having me. Have a merry Christmas.

You too. Dealers helping dealers.

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He was really good. Really good.

Yeah, well, I mean, that's a, that's a pretty interesting situation, that's for sure.

And I mean, as much as he talked about culture, he believes it. He lives.

Does make me think that whole thing, hire the best, pay them well and expect.

But you know, you know, a lot.

Of dealers, I think we hire mediocrity because that's the cheapest thing we can find. And then we just like to walk around like the big roosters of the roost because we're the ones that can do everything and everyone else is incompetent. We just have like a bunch of, a bunch of C players that make us feel like the A players.

I don't know. Yeah. But one, one other thing you said was hiring people with bad credit too. You know, and, and, and I, I've done this a couple times is you take people that when they started with you that had a couple dead end type careers.

Yeah.

And they never really made over about 30 grand. And then next thing you know you're paying these people 60, 70,000, $80,000 a year and they are all in. You know what I mean? Like it's something to be said about that too.

But those are still, I mean you're still finding people who are competent and capable.

Oh yeah, yeah.

For sure.

They might just be overextended or over leverage. You're not finding like, you know, it's not typically our customer who is bad credit and also doesn't show up to work on time.

Yeah.

And also can't hold down a job.

Yeah.

I think you're like he said. I mean maybe it's those people that are just really grateful to prove themselves. I, I don't know. I just, I guess I just keep going back to like, I mean look at your taxes. What are you going to pay this year? Ridiculous.

A lot.

Could you imagine if you paid a little bit less and had way more competent people because you were just willing to pay.

A little bit more, not gonna pay as much this year. I was looking at our income compared to last year. It's not so good.

But.

But what? What I, the reason is because our 20, 21 and 2 were so bad that our interest income has dipped so much. But I can see that 25 layer, part of 25 and there's going to.

Be is going to hurt anyway from an income standpoint.

Tax wise.

Yeah, tax wise.

Yeah, I could see it. I can already see the trajectories is we're back to income, interest income of where we were in no.1 anyway.