Charlamagne Tha God Moderates a Conversation with Tip "T.I" Harris and Shaka Senghor

Nah, nah, nah. Y' all don't seem like y' all too hype enough. Please make some noise. Ladies and gentlemen, for the people that are about to hit the Graces stage, I want you guys to stand to your feet and give them a warm, warm welcome. How can we fix the criminal justice system? Panel, Shaka Senghor, TI Harris, Tim TI Harris. And Charlamagne the Gun. Make some noise. Make some noise.

What's happening? A 3C. ATL. What's going on? Thank y' all for joining us today. I want everybody to introduce themselves. Shaka, we start with you.

What up, though? Shaka Sengore, author, writing My Wrongs. And that book, Outside the Dose. When we get done, meet me out there.

Word.

And this man needs no introduction. The unofficial mayor of the atl, Man.

Tip Tip TI Harris, Frederick Douglass alumni.

And we're here to talk about the criminal justice system, prison reform. And my first question is, to what degree are prisons and reform systems currently promoting education in the reform process, if at all?

So I'll take that one. It's actually great that you actually asked that question, because for years, the prison system was going in the opposite direction in regards to education. So around 1994, there was a crime bill passed by then President Bill Clinton that stripped Pell grants from prisons. And from that point forward, education in that environment has been sorely lacking, except for those who actually take it upon themselves to educate themselves. And I would say within the last few years, there's been a push to, like, start refocusing on education. But I think there's something that's really missing from that piece, which is the emotional and mental and psychological education that's necessary for people to actually return to society healthy and whole.

I mean, first of all, I would say two things. One, the answer to that question depends on whether you talk in federal prison or state prison. Because if we talk to state prison, as we discussed in the back, it's 50 different prison systems as far as on the state level. So each one of those operate under a different regime. As far as federally, it's probably more programs and probably more educational options, but they aren't being necessarily promoted. And you could be in a prison for years and not know exactly what all they have to offer. I'll also go so far as to say the education that we usually get from prison is not necessarily academic. You know what I'm saying? I think the same kind of, like. The same kind of discipline and like, moral education that people used to go to the military to get, you Know what I'm saying? Like, that's, like that's existent in prison because, you know, you, you're taught manners and, and etiquettes and like in your household home training, what your mama taught you right from wrong, how to, you know, how to address people. You know, how to carry yourself where you aren't being rude, impolite, or disruptive to others. And you know, coming up, if you step out of that line, usually you get, boy, you know better than that in prison. You gonna get shanked on the yard for it.

Damn.

So you, you get, you get to straightening yourself up pretty good. A lot of that. Loosey goosey, talking, loud, moving, all while not respecting other people'. That kind of education is usually what comes primarily from prison.

The problem I have is that they call prisons correctional facilities. But if you got a bunch of brothers who never dealt with their trauma before they went to prison, they just gonna go in prison and get more trauma. So how do you handle that?

So I think one of the things that's super important is that we actually have people who was in prison speak to these issues. And so I'm definitely shout out to a 3C for even having me on the panel. So for those in the audience who don't know my story, I was incarcerated for 19 years. Seven of those years was in solitary confinement. And one of the things that I observed in that environment was the high level of psychological trauma and a high level of mental illness. And when I began to think about our communities and the high levels of gun violence and things like that, I began to make this connection between what's happening in prisons and what's happening when people come home. And, you know, to Tip's point earlier, we talked about education like I was educated by some of the most incredible mentors in the world. These are men who are dying in prison. These are men who have 35, 40 years served, and they had 20 years in when I came in. And they saw something in me that was redeemable even when I didn't see it myself. And to me, that's what I call, like a real og. I think that that title has been given to people who haven't earned that title, but real OGs, they learn from their mistakes and they impart that wisdom on the next generation. And part of that wisdom that they dropped on me was understand your mental health, understand that you've been through several layers of trauma. I was 17 years old when I got shot. Never even considered any type of treatment. Sixteen months later, I shot and killed the Man. And when I started asking other young brothers who was convicted of murder, you can see that story after they had got shot, they was in proximity to somebody who got shot, and they eventually went on to shoot somebody and caused their death. And so as I began to think about what does it mean to come home healthy and whole, one, you have to have that mental awareness to know I just came out of a hellish, like, existence and I'm coming back into a community who doesn't really understand that. Like, it's great that when people come home, we get the parties and people do the celebrations. But once that goes away, real life kicks in and we're not talking about what's happening with our brothers and sisters coming home mentally and emotionally and why it's so important for us to be aware of that. So to have these spaces where we can talk about that and that correlation between recidivism. 70% of people get out, go back in. And it's a reason that that happens. It's hard to function out here in the world that doesn't quite understand where you're coming from. The small things become gigantic when we ignore them in the first place. And so for me, like, my mission is to raise awareness about that piece of it. And I think that this is the type of audience that can actually carry that message forward.

Because that's actual rehabilitation, right?

Yeah. I mean, I think first and foremost, you got to not look for the system to rehabilitate you. Like, that's not their primary focus. Their primary focus is cheap labor. So let's just, you know, and as soon as we can kind of understand that and wrap our minds around it, no matter how many programs are in these institutions and facilities, these plantations, there wouldn't. That will never. They're just checking boxes. That would never be their primary. Like. Like prison is, you know, an extension of slavery, you know, 13th Amendment. Absolutely. Because if, I mean, there are other steps to take to end poverty, to end crime, to end recidivism, there. There are several steps that can be taken, and none of those steps are being taken. This isn't about fair. This isn't about justice. This isn't even about legality. You know, it's about cheap labor and how to continue slavery beyond, what is it, 1865 or whatever. You know, I think that the 13th amendment says it clearly. Slavery is abolished unless imprisoned. So now the only thing is, how can I think you into slavery? How can I get you to trick yourself off the streets and into slavery? And I think that these systems have been put in place ever since the end of the Civil War.

I mean, I guess that's one of the reasons they don't want to really give you actual rehabilitation, you know, from a social and emotional level, because they want you to keep making those same mistakes. But. But let's keep it on a point about legislation. Why does the criminal justice system need reform?

So.

I'm gonna let him elaborate, okay. Because he probably have a much more. A much more articulate way of saying it, but because it's fucked up. That's my answer. But I want you to please.

Yeah, tell them why it's fucked up. Sir.

I concur.

This is why it's fucked up. So to your point about the 13th amendment, you know, when we say free labor, people oftentimes just hear that, but they don't really think deeply about it. So what that looks like actually in prison. My first job in prison was working in the kitchen for 17 cent an hour. Yeah, 17 cent an hour. So if that was happening in a second third world country, would be hypercritical of that, but it's happening in our own backyard. Right. One of the things that people don't think about is there's companies currently in America that exploits poor free labor in prison. Right? So these same companies will hire you in prison for what's considered a good prison wage, which may be like a dollar a day, but then you can't get employment when you get out at those same companies. And so that's problematic. Right. And so the reason it needs to be reformed is, for one, it's exploiting poor black and brown communities at a level that was basically unheard of 20, 30 years ago. And one of the great things that's come out of this conversation is Ava DuVernay's film 13th, which I highly encourage everybody in this room to go watch, because it gives a historical connection to the re. Enslavement of our people. You know, post shadow slavery in 1865. And so the reforms are actually starting to take place in a way that's unprecedented. For the first time in the country, both parties are in agreement that things need to be done right. But the reality is we can't wait on them to make decisions that we have to make ourselves, which is, first of all, let's prevent as many of our people as possible from getting enslaved. And then when they actually come home, let's start being really proactive and thinking about, how do you keep somebody home? Like, there's things like. And I'm like, I'm a Successful person for. For the sake of this conversation. Right. And what I mean by that is successful as a writer, successful as a publisher, producer, all these different things. Right. But there are still impediments that I face 10, almost 10 years post incarceration. Like, I can't just go get an apartment right now. I had to check a box that says, have you ever been convicted of a felony? So what happens? I had to tell you. Yeah, absolutely.

And he been on Oprah.

Yeah. You dig what I'm saying?

Damn. Real talk. So just to say, for example, I travel more than most US Citizens. Right. I can't get tsa, even though my federal tax dollars pay for that.

Right.

I can't get typical employment if I needed it because of that felony. Right. So it's 40,000 collateral consequences to having a felony.

And also, also loans, business loans, home loans, even automotive loan, like, you know, they ask you, have you been convicted of a felony? So the financial institutions are also involved in it. You know, it's all to contribute to us remaining downtrodden.

Absolutely.

And dependent upon a system that we cannot depend on to support our families. Therefore, we usually have to step outside the lines of the system, and then usually that brings us back into the system.

Yeah. I can't get. I can't get TSA PreCheck either, because of old felonies. So look how. Imagine how stupid I look when my wife and kids can go through pre check and, you know, the. The global entry, and I can't because the felonies that happened in the 90s, I never tried.

So it's a lifelong punishment.

Yeah.

Is. Is meaningful reform even possible in the current climate, the current political climate?

I think it is. You know, some of the work that's been done by some of the courageous organizations throughout the country. You know, cut 50 has been one of the leading organizations that's helped shift some legislation. Right.

That's Van Jones.

That's Van Jones, Jessica. Well, Van's no longer running it, but he founded it. And you know, that the work that they've done on a political level has been historical, you know, in nature. And I really want people to examine that more because they pulled off some that just hadn't been executed in the past, where you get both parties to agree that this is really wrong. And in order to do that, we had to humanize the issue. So that's how so many of us started becoming storytellers and we started taking ownership of our story. Like, when I came out of prison, they was like, please don't Tell nobody you was in prison, let alone convicted of murder. Like, you're never going to be able to do anything in society. But I had a responsibility to my friends who I left behind. And I knew as a writer that I had a talent and a gift that can actually help people understand how many, so many of us end up in prison. But because we were able to humanize that to your point, like, I did an interview with Oprah prior to that, she hadn't engaged with somebody who had been convicted of a serious crime in that way. And what it did is it shifted how she thought about it, and she began to use her platform to talk about it. And of course, we got Tip and we got Meek Mills. We got all these brothers and sisters. We started being more vocal about it. And that humanization piece is so important. And then other part to be real, which was like, because the opioid epidemic is impacting largely rural white communities, there's not this idea that we can empathize with what people went through during the crack epidemic, you know, and sadly, it took for them to see it in their own kids. But whatever works. We don't, you know, at this point, we don't give a fuck. Like, longer than work. I mean, I do care about people, like, dying. But you get. My point is, like, yeah, you can.

Only care about them as much as they care about you.

No facts. Yeah, but my point is, like, once people can start seeing how it impacts them, then that's when the shift started to take place. And then the bottom line is, like, it's a money industry. And like any other industry where the investment may seem great early on, the long term investment stopped paying off. And so now they're rethinking that reality. So I just think we gotta keep doing our part to keep pushing the envelope.

Well, I mean, I agree with everything the brother Shaka said, and I think that he's done a tremendous job, you know what I'm saying? Like, speaking on behalf of, you know, the brothers and sisters that we have behind the wall that, you know, have been seemingly forgotten, I think, you know, you've done a great job putting that responsibility on your shoulders and carrying that lo. But to answer your question about can there be true prison reform? Okay. Yes and no. And I'm gonna give you both aspects to that. I say yes because, one, there can be no bad without good. And you see the most light in the darkest places. You know, and the laws of the earth say that whenever a seed is planted, something must grow. All right? So no matter what the condition of the climate is, okay, we can begin to plant seeds and do things that we may not see right now in this administration. Just like, you know, a lot of the legislation is being passed right now. You know, these things weren't conceptualized during this administration. They just landed on the presidency desk during this administration. And he signed it and pushed it through because it made him look good and helped his camp, his platform. So in that way, I say, yes, we can begin to do things, but it's going to start grassroots, ground level. It's not going to start in Senate. It's not going to start at Congress. It's going to start with local politics. I mean, with your city councilman and, you know, your community leaders organizing, mobilizing, and creating movements that will grow and become noticeable by bigger politicians with bigger platforms who have more incentive to help you because it helps them. That's how that works. And the reason I say no is because until this country actually addresses and holds itself accountable for the wrongdoings that have been done to us for generations, then it can't take the necessary steps forward. Not large enough steps to make some.

Significant.

Like some noticeable progress for our people. For instance, the crack epidemic, okay, the Iran Contra scandal has been proven that the United States traded guns for cocaine with Nicaragua, came to America, flooded it into the communities, created crack, and on the flip side of that, created a crack law.

88 crack that your boy Joe Biden and Strom Thurmond implemented.

It really is Reagan. I'm sure they had some hand to play. Clinton and all the mother ones had some hand to play, but it's Reagan, okay? Reagan and Bush. The crack law has locked up millions for tens of like, tens and hundreds of years. But there is no accountability. America ain't even as much said, you know what? We got that wrong. We, sorry, it's almost like, okay, yeah, we fucked up, pay for it. So. So with that kind of attitude, I don't think that there is any level of reform there, any significant level of reform. We could do what we can, but it'll never be what we need.

Yeah, I question if they even really want to. Shaka, you worked on the First Step Act. What exactly is the First Step Act?

So the First Step act was a law that Trump passed, you know, into law in the last year or so. And basically what it does is it reverses some of the damage done by the crack cocaine laws in the former terrible bill that was passed. And so people were hypercritical about that, you know, largely because Trump Signed it. And Kim Kardashian voice was used in that space, and people were really critical. But the one thing I definitely want to say in regards to Kim's work in the space has been very authentic. She's actually really smart, smarter than most people give her credit for. And she's been very strategic in her approach to how she's been able to get things, you know, support those who've been doing the real work. The real work is Jessica Jackson, Topeka Sam, and people whose names. That may not pop up when that act got passed, but it really is to reverse some of that damage, to bring people in the federal system closer to home. A lot of times you get locked up in feds, you can end up, you know, miles and miles away from home. So it puts certain provisions in to ensure that there's dignity for women who are incarcerated, that they have the necessary tools during, you know, when they're on a period, things like that, that women aren't giving birth shackled up in cells and things like that. And so it's incremental progress. Right. It brings some people home. ON ELECTRONIC MONITOR There was some criticism around that, mostly from people who had never sat in a prison cell.

You wouldn't give a damn how you come home. Yeah.

As long as you get home. Right. And so the thing is, it's a first step. You know, it's not the end all, be all, but it's definitely something more comprehensive and progressive than we've seen in the past. But a couple of things I really want to offer to the conversation around what reform looks like. Right. So there's a few key things that I think has to take place. One, we have to decriminalize mental illness.

Yes.

And I say that, and I like to explain these things so people really understand what that is. Right. So say somebody comes to prison with a two year sentence because they was having a schizophrenic episode and vandalize the building and get incarcerated. Right. That person may end up doing 20 to 30 years because they habitually break the rules in prison, largely because they have the mental inability to function the way that somebody who doesn't have mental illness functions. Right. Oftentimes they end up in solitary confinement for extremely long periods of time. And so the cycle just repeats itself. Right. So we deal with that. That's a major issue that will reduce a lot of the prison population. One is we have to not only decriminalize marijuana, but also other drugs, because ultimately people have a choice what to do with their bodies. Right. As soon as they found a way to make money in the marijuana industry, they began to make it legalized. Right. Meanwhile, the people who were impacted and imprisoned, they can't penetrate that industry, you know what I'm saying? So we're trying to change that culture, but decriminalizing that. And the third thing is the whole parole and probation, which really feeds the system. So a lot of people go back to prison. It's not because of a new crime. It's because they got a technical parole or probation violation, which means if you get out of prison and you get arrested for jaywalking something that under normal circumstances, you pay a fine to keep it moving, that will send you back to prison.

I'll be in around another one of my partners who got a. Who's on probation, right.

Being around another partner in Michigan. When I got out of prison, I had to sign a gun law. I couldn't even be around a water gun. You know what I'm saying? Water gun. A water gun. Literally, that's enough to say, hell, a.

Water gun got to do with anything.

It told me that, too.

No, seriously. Yeah, water gun, bullet hunter.

They said that water gun ain't never hurt nobody.

Empty shell, you know, like, if you. Let's just say if we go to the Chevron on Camelton Road and we walk in, we going in there to grab us some duchess or whatever, we.

Come back out, that's a violation of probation, too. Just want to put that out there.

Not until somebody fills it up.

Right.

You know what I'm saying?

Technicality.

You dig what I'm saying? But what I'm saying is you walk out, right? If there's a shell on the ground and the police happen to, you know, accost you while you're in that spot, while that shell, an empty shell that's already been shot out of a gun, that can violate you and that can send you to jail, that can be a new charge.

That's crazy.

Yeah, that's real. And the thing is, like, I think now we're at a space now where just hearing how people react in an audience, right? How absurd it is. And this is what happens when we're not aware and for years, we didn't have a platform and to talk about how so many of us end up back in prison, right? Or how so many of us end up on probation for, you know, 10, 15, 20 years, you know, and, like, even when Meek Mills was going through his thing, it was so interesting watching the social media thing of, well, maybe he shouldn't have been popping the willy.

You know what I mean?

You know what I'm saying? Maybe he shouldn't have been doing this. Like, we're so ridiculous in our assessment of what happens to our people. And so I think now we're at a space. We want to challenge those ideas. Like, that man should have never been on probation that long for something that happened as a kid. He definitely shouldn't have been took back to prison for something that's a minor incident in the world of everyday life, you know what I mean? But until we're taking ownership of our responsibility and communicating our stories and like, owning our own bullshit, like, we'll continue to see our people suffer with this psycho recidivism back in and out of prison.

I mean, speaking of Meek Milk case, not to mention that the arresting officer. Officers had already been like, you know, their testimonies in several other cases had been. It was kicked out of the court because they've been proven to be dirty cops. Okay? So if this. If he's on probation for a case that the evidence was shown by this officer, this officer has already been kind of proven to be a bad apple. How can you still hold this man to this particular sentence that came from this bad apple? So I think the Meek Milk was. It was an atrocity all the way around. I'm glad it's over.

How have y', all, you know, individual prison stints giving you a different perspective to what needs to be done as far as prison reform.

I keep referring to you. Cause you did way more time than me, so you are the expert.

So I think for me, you know, when I went to prison, like I was like any other other brothers in the hood. Like, I was still angry, I was bitter. I didn't want to take any responsibility. I literally got in so much trouble. Within my first year, I was sent up to maximum security. I turned 20 years old in maximum security prison. I caught another case in the joint. Eight years into my incarceration, I beat an officer almost to death. Ended up doing four and a half years in solitary confinement. And when I began to awaken to my true purpose, my true sense of self, I had them wise mentors who was giving me books. And they actually tricked me with books. So they started off giving me like Iceberg Slim and, you know, Donald Gorn's books about pimps and hoes and street shit, right? But they knew those books would run out. And then they gave me Malcolm X. And when I read that book, I realized that there was another possibility for my Life on the other side of this prison sentence. But it took me some years to get there. But what I discovered for myself. So I started a company while I was in prison. I published my first book from prison, 2008. Got sued by the Department of Correction for the cost of my incarceration, which they said they thought I had made some money off the book. And they itemized how much it cost per day to keep me in prison. Right. And yeah, they sued. So they sued me for, like a million dollars.

While you're in prison?

While I'm in prison.

Lord have mercy. Them white people. Something else, ain't it?

Yeah. And so. But look, I remember looking at that itemized, day by day, cost of my incarceration. And I was saying, this is what they've shrunken my life down to $150 a day here. $49 at this prison. And then I had an officer come to my door one day, and he was a babbling idiot. And I said to myself, who's the real fool here? He's telling me when I can eat. He's telling me when to go to bed. He controls every aspect of my life, but he's intellectually inferior to me. And I made it up in my mind that I would never be in a position where somebody who is intellectually inferior to me can control my life. Wow. Wow. And so when I got out of prison, I wanted to assure that other young brothers who was growing up in my community wasn't repeating that process. And I've won countless awards. I spoke on every platform. The ted's, the Oprah's. But it's because I understand the men that's in there, that these were men who came through levels of trauma that we don't talk about in our community, the PTSD we don't talk about in our community, and that these brothers and sisters are redeemable. And I know that if I could change, bro, like, I literally caught 25 to 30 misconducts in prison. Like, I was thugging it out. I ran the joint. And I knew if there was hope for me, that there has to be hope for those other brothers and sisters. And it's my responsibility to ensure that we don't forget about them. So that's what keeps me going, bro.

I mean, it's interesting. Yeah. Round of applause for that. It's interesting because I always say, you know, in the hood, brothers got so much trauma and so much hurt and so much pain that they not dealing with that we end up redistributing that Pain to other people. So who helped you deal with your trauma in prison to where you stopped redistributing that pain to other people?

You know, again, for me, it was the mentor, the real OGs, right? These was brothers who are never getting out of prison, man. These brothers are going to die in prison unless we change those systems, you know. And I remember them being like, come on, young blood, get it together. And I used to be like, man, I don't want to hear that shit. They like, one day you gonna get out, right? I mean, like real talk at this point, I'm 19 years old and I'm trying to look down 20 years down the road. I couldn't see freedom. But they had the wisdom to know that at some point you're gonna get that opportunity and that you're going back to our community. And I didn't even think about this wisdom. They understood that I'm gonna be neighbors with their mothers, I'm gonna be neighbors with their kids, and that they wanted to send me home healthy and whole so that I can make sure that other brothers wasn't violating the community. So those my brothers I turned to, you know what I mean? And I'll say this last thing, man, about what friendship is. People often ask me about, you know, why do I go back, why do I reach back? I grew up with them cats, man, from the time I was a kid. And like, if you were a real cat, you don't forget your guys, you know what I'm saying? And so right now, on my jpay, on my phone, I write my dues, you know what I'm saying? They call me, we vibe like brothers, you know what I'm saying? And so that's what keep me grinding and keep me going. And of course, you know, looking at these young brothers and sisters out here, we got to be example for them, you know what I mean?

What was your experiences like in the joint tip like? Did they treat you different because you was a celebrity? Did you have a different level of personality?

They treat me different everywhere Charlamagne. And it has nothing to do with celebrity. It was like this before, you know, I think that the spirit or the aura I exude led it contributed to me reaping the benefits of my celebrity now. But nah, I mean, I think that, I mean, they treated me different both ways, you know what I'm saying? On one hand, you know, all the racist Arkansas cos they, you know what I'm saying, they wanna this. They only look, you know, they only little authority they ever had And I used to tell them all the time, you know what I'm saying? They'll come and they'll say something. Your pants aren't pressed, Harris. I say, man, my pants ain't pressed. That's all you. They pay you here to do that, man? Walk around and watch people pants? That's what you is. The pants. Watching your shirt ain't tucked in, Harris. You can't even run your own house, can you? You come in here trying to run us. You can't even run your own house. Your woman probably somewhere doing God knows what. You have no idea. They hated me. They were ready to get me out of there fast. You hear me?

So what perspective did that give you as far as like what needs to be done as far as prison reform?

First of all, what it showed me is MK Ultra mind control. Human programming is real. You dig that? All this shit is like, you think what you have been programmed to think. And most people like the ones that you described, the. The guys who we deem crazy or mentally ill because they don't fit into the conformities of what society have programmed everybody else so they know they are unprogrammable. You dig what I'm saying? Now you got two things. You can either be unprogrammable and rebel and revolt against the entire machine and against the entire collective of the program. Or you can roll with it, understand from the inside that it's a program, develop a new software so you can reprogram the program, you understand? But we can't do that criticizing those that are unprogrammable, right? You dig what I'm saying? We just got to offer them something that they can subscribe to because they not wrong by not wanting to conform to this. Cuz it ain't right and they feel it ain't right and there's something in them that's just causing the man, hell no. You know what I'm saying? It's like trying to put a saddle on a stallion. Tried. You see what I'm saying? It ain't that this is a bad horse. This horse ain't bad. It just ain't been programmed to have nobody on his motherfucking back riding it. You know what I'm saying? And I think that that's what prison taught me, those control moves. And it also taught me that we were being programmed from prison. From school.

Yeah, school to prison, pipeline.

We were programmed for prison from school. When they teach you to go to this class at this time, don't get caught out in the hallway, move when the Bell ring ISS all that shit.

Lord have mercy.

All that shit. Yeah, they did everything but suspension, you know what I'm saying? They didn't send me home no days, you know what I'm saying? But I'm just saying like that, like that is a pro. When I saw those control move when that bell rang. And sometimes I ain't even move. I just used to step out on the little porch in front of my unit and look and be like, damn. You know, whenever we go to the club and the club it ain't lit, and we be like, man, where everybody at? I'm like, damn. This way everybody is. I found everybody, man. No, I ain't, man. Have you ever seen 2500-3000 black men coming or going at one time? That crazy. That look like gazelles in the. In the Serengeti? You just look at this shit and be like, God damn, this shit here is unspeakable. But that shit taught me that all of the things that we. That we went through, all the things we think that they are haphazard or they're meaningless, but this shit all happens for a purpose. And what you put in your mind, what you tell yourself. I think partial part of mental health is self talk.

Absolutely.

Oh, absolutely.

The stuff you say to yourself, that's why people say I'm arrogant. But you know what I'm saying? I love me more than anybody else can, you know, And. And if I don't believe this, why should you?

Yeah, and you gotta constantly keep telling yourself how great you are, that you're worried because the world is going to tell you the opposite every damn day.

Hey, man, fuck them. They wrong.

We right.

Let's get into that. Let's get into the. We've touched on it a little bit. Let's get into the mental health aspect because we talk about the First Step act. And to me that's like legislation, you know, getting people home is great, but what happens when these people get home? You know what I'm saying? How do we. How does the mental health education play a role in the rehabilitation process?

Yeah, I don't think you can have healthy reentry without talking about mental health. Right. So there's moments when I think about all the shit that I went through in prison.

Right?

The indignity of walking into a space that from the very moment you're arrested is intended to dehumanize you. And to be in this environment that's extremely volatile and to be in this environment that keeps you away from information. Like my book is Actually banned in a lot of prisons because they don't want a book that models what it means to be healthy and whole post incarceration in the hands of those who are trying to heal. So that book is banned in a lot of prisons. Right. So they would deny us information that was helpful. And, you know, the things that you go through in there, you know, the dehumanization, the beatings, and, you know, the starvings, like, when I was in solitary because I was down there for assaulting an officer, they was very punitive toward me, right. So I would like, intentionally fast for, like, days. For those days that. When they would try to starve me, you know what I'm saying? So this is the shit they would do is, like, they would dine me food or they would make up false allegations to further penalize me in different ways. And so having gone through all that and to come back to society where I understood that these are things that were deeply traumatic for me. Right. One of the experience. I realized. So when I. When I first got out and the first time I was like, sleep in a real bed. I woke up and the whole bed was, like, soaking wet. And I was like. I was like. You know what I'm saying? Like. Like, what's happening? So I was having night sweats.

What?

Because I was processing the trauma out of my body, right. And then there was just other. All the small things. Like, the world had changed dramatically in the 20 years I had been gone.

Because you went in at 19, came in at 1938.

What year?

1991. So it was no Internet. Yeah. I went in where they had the big phones, you know what I'm saying? The big phones and the big.

Get to hear Goody Mob first album back then.

That was before I caught my first charge.

Yeah. Goody Mob didn't come out. I was still in the. In the. I was in the joint when that came out. Like, I learned about all this music culture.

The chronic hadn't even came out.

None of that. No, no. The chronic. Damn. None of that. Right. So I missed that whole experience. Right. But the technology had advanced so much. When I came home, it was, like, mind blowing, you know, to, like, get on the phone and, like, this phone does all these things and cars that talk now and, you know, all the different things are so mental.

And drive.

Yeah, and drive. Yeah, man. Park by herself. Don't drive. But. Yeah, but it was. But I think that's something that we don't think about. Like, the. Cause you have to have those things, right? You can't even get a job without being able to use an email. But if you've been gone for 20 years, like how do you adjust to these things? So people don't really think about that. And even families, like, families are so well meaning. Like when I came home, my family wanted to drag me to everything, right? And I can tell you, like, the first year I was home, all I ate was wingdings and hamburgers. Because I would go in and read a menu and become over so overwhelmed by so many choices. And it was just like stress me out and I'd be like, just let me get a burger. You know what I mean? And so it was like a lot of these things that I had to gradually process, process out of my system. And so I think those things are important is to have people who have been through it go back in before people actually come home and mentor them and coach them and prepare them for real life out here. You know.

I think that for one, people have to care. You know what I'm saying? I feel like the individual who's coming home one day has to care and there has to be someone outside of the system who's allowed access to these people to speak to them. When I was in prison, I taught a class. It was called Thinking Outside the Box. And that class was basically about identifying talents that landed us in prison, honing those skills and using them for legitimate purposes.

A drug dealer is an entrepreneur.

A drug dealer, he's definitely an entrepreneur, definitely. And how to apply those skills for legitimate means and reap the benefits of that on the other side. So that was like a class that I taught, but since I've been gone, I don't know who else teaching it, you know what I'm saying? That's a curriculum that I put together myself and. Well, thank you.

So isn't that something we should be pushing for in the prison? Shouldn't we be pushing for these brothers to have therapists and counselors in prison?

Yeah, I mean, I think it's. It's extremely important. Sure. There was one more part too I want to point to about people coming home. The dating thing, right?

What?

Dating. Dating, like relationships, Right?

Bullshit.

No, it's a real thing that, you know, I discovered.

Dina's single. Dina, Dana, whatever. So anybody know somebody who finna come home, Dina's single.

But here's an interesting take on it though, right? So I got out of prison and, you know, I was super mature. I came home to a relationship and I thought I was prepared for a real relationship. And the reality was I didn't know anything about a relationship because I went in when I was a kid. Now I was a street cat. So I had been dealing with fast money, fast cars, fast girls, but that wasn't a relationship. That was transactional. And so when I came home and I got in this relationship, like, I didn't know shit about pms. I thought it was some shit my mama made up. I ain't think it was a real thing. Real talk, though. Right. But there was things that I didn't understand about relating in a. In a real mature way, but also didn't understand relationship trauma because I hadn't had that experience of being traumatized in a relationship.

Yeah.

So, like, my model now is like, I can't date your trauma. And, like, you know, people be like, check that credit. I'm like, yo, you see a therapist, like, that's super important. But the thing is, like, our sisters, and I give them so much credit because they do latch on the brothers when they on their way home.

Yes, sir.

And they get into these relationships, and then they get disappointed. They get heartbroken when a guy come home and realize that he's not capable of being in a relationship. So I would say one of the things that we have to cultivate is ensuring that men and women inside actually know how to relate. Like, not just in an intimate relationship, but relate to family. It was hard for me to adjust to my family because some of them had basically forgot I existed while I was in prison. And so when I came home, it would be interesting for them to be like, oh, my God, we missed you so much. And I'm like, yo, I was in there for 19 years. You ain't come see me at all. You know what I mean? And so we don't talk about, like, that type of anger that people come home, that animosity and that resentment, and all of that is important. Like, if we're going to bring people home healthy and whole, we got to deal with the whole person. And all these relationships really matter. So I'm a big advocate of that, because that's part of your mental health, is knowing that you got people you can rely on, count on, talk to, and relate to.

And the spirit has moved me to say this. Each and every last one of y' all got people who locked up. Don't forget about those people. They still human beings. Yeah, they still alive. You know what I'm saying? They still feed off of human interaction affirmations, you know what I'm saying? I got my best friend man doing a life sentence, Cap. He been locked up since. Man, listen, the coldest thing in the world. He got locked up the year before I got my record deal. After all that, you know, hell we raised and all that, Them lines we pushed trying to get to, you know, a point of prosperity. He been locked up since the first. Since the first. The year before I got my record deal. So my entire career, he's been behind the wall, calling, supporting, from over the phone, you know what I mean? And, you know, and that's somebody who, you know, that. That's just as much like my brother as my brother is. I never forget or turn my back on him. I just talked to BG this morning. BG called me earlier today. You know what I'm saying? And a lot of people, you know what I'm saying, we feel like now because, you know, we own, you know, the end the Instagrams and. And we put a hashtag and we say free such and such. I mean, they don't see that, y'. All. Well, some of them, but, you know, for the most part, you dig what I'm saying, they don't. They can't feel that. You know what I'm saying?

So what should we be giving them more than just common sense? Military or hitting 5 when they call.

Whoa. Now, the money helps.

The money's good.

Money helps. If a sent you a hundred dollars a month feel good for 19 years, whether they came to see you or not.

Oh, you. You. You feel good.

I mean, but I just. I think that is a huge part of it. And another thing is how you look at stuff and how you process things. You said something that made me pull. Pull up something that I saw on Instagram, and I'm gonna read it to you. Excuse me. It's gonna take about 30 seconds.

Do you think tip.

A jobless man applied for a position as an office boy at a very big company. The employer interviewed him. Then a test. He said, clean the floor. So he did. The man said, you're hired. The employer told the man, give me your email address and I'll send you the application to fill as well as when you. The man replied, I don't have a computer. Neither an email address. I'm sorry, said the employer, if you don't have an email, you can't have the job. The man left with no hope. He didn't know what to do with only $10 in his pocket. He then decided to go to the supermarket. He bought a 10 kilogram tomato crate. Then he sold the tomatoes. Door to door in less than two hours. He succeeded and doubled his capital. He replaced the same three times. He returned home with $60. The man realized that he could survive this way, started to go every day earlier and earlier and returned later and later. Five years later, the man's company was one of the biggest food retailers. He started to plan his family's future and decided to go to have life insurance. He called the life insurance broker, chose a protection plan. When the conversation was concluded, the broker asked him for his email. The man replied, I don't have an email. The broker replied, curiously, you don't have an email and yet have succeeded to build an empire. Do you imagine what position you could have if you had an email? The man said, yes. An office boy.

Facts, real talk. I think that's.

Yeah.

So that. That experience, he learned, was invaluable.

Absolutely. So as we get out, like, you didn't have all the tools you needed. You learned this shit on the fly because your mindset gave you a never say die winning by any means necessary kind of an attitude. And that is what it takes more than anything.

Absolutely. And that's. And that's what I try to model for the guys inside. So I grew up in the streets hustling, bro. Know how to make money, you know what I mean? So I taught myself how to write. I published my own book. Like, I literally saved the bread. I hustled from the yard. I ran the yard, ran the black market stores, took that. I bought a thousand books while I was in the joint. And when I came home, the first thing I did when I stepped out the parole office is sold a book in the parking lot. I've been selling books for almost 10 years straight. I became a New York Times bestseller. 26 years to the day, I was shot in the corner of my block. My current book has been translated into Chinese. Like, Lily, it's China. So imagine this like 10 years ago, I was in a joint. My book is translated into Chinese. Oprah Winfrey took a picture of reading my book on her jet. Interviewed me at her home five years after I was incarcerated. Spoke at TED Conference four years after I was incarcerated. Taught at the University of Michigan for three semesters. A class I started while I. When I got home. I was an MIT Media lab fellow. Kellogg fellow, Manchester University Innovator of the year award winner.

Yes, sir.

So that's what I sent back to my guys so that they can actually see that all the shit that I said I was gonna do until you know how it is, everybody be Like I'm gonna go get into real estate, I'm gonna get out here and do this. You gotta start doing this.

Be right back here with us.

But they believe that they projecting their fears and their failures on you.

Absolutely.

They feel like when they get out there, they ain't gonna do shit.

One of my best friends right now to this day, he did 24 years for crime and committees at home. Now I used to walk with this brother every day. I used to say, bro, one day Oprah gonna read one of my books. One day Oprah gonna read one of my books. I used to walk and talk and he'd just listen to me. He never got tired, never stopped listening. He always be like, man, you right, bro, you gonna. It's gonna make it happen, right? And I want to say this like a publicist didn't send her my book. It wasn't even a fancy. The model that you get out there now is not the book she got. Oprah got the book. I was sending out the trunk because I was relentless with my hustle and innovation and thinking about ways of getting my book into people's hands. And so what happened?

You pulled up and stepping at a car wash or something?

I mean, you know, I can't give you all the jewels, bro. I tell. That's a behind the scenes story. I'll tell you coming out. But, but I say that to say this is that brothers and sisters that need to see models of what's possible and we can't wait on people to give us opportunities. Sometimes you just got to take opportunity. You know what I mean?

You create your own destiny.

Absolutely.

Each and every one of you. I don't care what your circumstances is. I don't care how bad you think you got it. I don't care what your excuses are. Remember this. There's somebody somewhere with the same, same amount of problems you have or worse that won with them.

Absolutely.

They took the same you making excuses about and they found a way to win with that. You know what I mean? You control your own destiny. What this man just described to me was the law of attraction.

Damn right.

This man willed himself to success.

That's right.

But just like he, just like he willed himself to success, a lot of us will ourself into failure because of how we talk to ourselves, man. I can't do that, man. It'll never happen, man. I'm posed to, man. What you think I pulled the man that see you, you, you beating yourself so you don't have to be defeated. You, you already Defeated yourself? Absolutely. So I think the first thing is the self talk. Positive affirmations and education. Education, opportunity and experiences are the only thing that separate any of us from anything in the world. Education, opportunities and experiences.

Tip just gave y' all some tools on how to stay mentally healthy. Before we get to the audience, Q and A. I do want to ask both of y', all, what did y' all do to stay mentally healthy once y' all got out of prison?

So for me, just staying on the grind and, you know, being focused on what I knew my intentions were, right? Having friends behind who were relying on me, you know, they needed somebody who can win. There were so many guys who had got out before me that talked about being an example, and they fell into the same traps that lead people back to prison, right? And I used to be hypercritical of them, but because I understand how easy it is now, I think about that different, but that that motivated me, you know, Now I'm a father. I have an incredible seven year old. I mean, I was a father before I went to prison, but I didn't get a chance to raise my two older children. But being a father to this beautiful, beautiful black boy, and knowing that I have an opportunity to impart the type of wisdom, the type of love that allow him to make different choices like that, that keeps me going, right? Like I do affirmation with my son every night. Like, literally every night, you know, before he goes to bed, no matter where I'm at in the world. So that inspires me. And I think the other part was just when you understand to Tip's point about the law of attraction, right? I started journaling when I was in solitary because I was like, you know, I dreamed of being a doctor. I was an honor Royal Scholarship student, but my life still ended up with me being in the prison cell. And so I started getting real with myself. And I would write down every time I got mad and what my reaction was, right? So one time, my neighbor in solitary blew the power in my cell. So I literally. I couldn't get to him, so I rolled down. When I get out, shank this bitch. Throw him over the gallery. You know what I'm saying? Keep playing with my power. Whatever, right? And I wrote in my honest feelings of how I felt in that moment. And then I went back and I read it when I was calm, and the shit read like the diary of a madman. And so in that point, I knew that there was something that I attracted into my life that allowed me to think that that was a logical conclusion for this man's life. And so I started thinking, like, okay, if this is absolutely true in the negative, then it has to be absolutely true and positive. And so I put the theory to a test. I wrote the war. And I say, listen, man, I said the time I've been in prison, one thing you know, I've always been honest, that I was never going to follow y' all rules. And so you may dislike the fact that I didn't follow the rules, but you have to. But you have to respect the fact that I always been honest. And if you believe me when it came to something negative, you have to believe me when it comes to something positive. And if you give me an opportunity and you release me from solitary confinement, here's what I'll do with my life moving forward. And he actually respected that because I've basically explained to him, it's not about what you like or what you feel. It's only about what's the facts. And the facts are, I've always been a man of my word, you know? And as my friend Ben Horowitz got a new book coming out called what you do is who you are.

I got that in my bag right now.

Do you? I'm actually featuring the two chapters that read those first.

I haven't.

But imagine that, though, right? Got him on the show in a couple weeks. Yes. So what you do is who you are, right? And so by writing that practice of saying, here's what I want to happen in my life, you know, and being consistent to analyze and say, okay, are my actions lining up with what I say, or are they not? And like, I grew up in, like, the real street culture, the real. Where your word was the only thing that mattered, like, period. You know what I'm saying? And so for me, being a man of my word and telling my guys that, look, here's what I'm gonna go out there and do, and then I had to honor that, bro. So that's what. What keep me moving forward.

So you never did no therapy or nothing like that?

Not yet.

Not yet.

But actually, yeah, I'm actually in the process of finding the right there, because what happens, I talk to a lot of therapists, and then I become their therapist. They're like, how did you say?

That's what I was just gonna say, man. Listen, real. I've gone to therapy, right? Yeah, I've gone to therapy. But if. And if anybody. I'm not downing therapy. I'm not downing it because it's necessary.

I go Once a week.

But. Okay. But I just. Okay. Relationship counseling, like, marriage counseling, actually helped.

Me because that's a form of therapy, though.

I know it. But I'm talking about when I go by myself, though. See, when I get to tell the marriage counselor all the stuff that she won't listen to me say, when it's just me and her talking, and then when the marriage counselor say, well, he does have a point there. See, I go for that, for them moments. You know what I'm saying? Like, yeah, I told you. You know what I'm saying? So as far as I'm concerned, whenever I sat down, what they did was they asked me a bunch of questions about me, and then I answer the questions, and then they take the answers to my questions, and then they ask me, well, could it be that I'm like, well, I thought you was gonna tell me what.

But no, I think that's the beauty of therapy. I think when you go, yeah, they're not there. They're not there to tell you what's going on with you. Sometimes it's just good to get it out. And as you talking, you figure it out for yourself.

All right, I got. I think I could do that in my music.

I think I kind of do it through writing and writing.

Like, he say he. He wrote something down that's a form of therapy for him to actually. And sometimes, you know, I say a lot of, you know, stuff, at least historically in music, and when I hear it back, like today, if I go listen to Hurt. If I go listen to the song Hurt. Merc, put him in the dirt.

What the is wrong with him?

What's wrong with me?

Listen, if you a man in America and you don't go back and listen to and the things that you used to say 15, 20 years ago and cringe sometime. Yeah, you ain't grown.

You dig what I'm saying? But I mean, I think also, I have children. I have children, man, that I live and die for, you know what I'm saying? And I got to stay silent because I got to keep them solid, you know what I mean? And a lot of times, like I said, self talk is. You know what I'm saying, Man, you ain't crazy. Straighten up, you know what I'm saying? You know what's going on. Do what you pulled to do. Get it together. Take me 30 seconds, you know what I'm saying? If I. When I'm not on probation or when, you know, when I got off probation, I walk around and hit me one, you know, What I'm saying, what? It's a form of therapy, you know, it's natural from the earth. God gave it to me. Partakers at you.

Hey, I take CBD every night for my anxiety.

But I will say another thing, another thing I wanted to say. Listen, man, it came to me in a dream. I don't know what the fuck this shit means. It came to me in a dream a while ago. I'm a share with y'. All. I don't know if time travel is real, but if it was, I'd be sent from the future to tell each and every last one of you that you already free. Stop asking for a motherfucker to give you some shit you already got unless you give it away. Okay, go ahead.

I'm gonna ask some questions from the audience because we only got a couple minutes left. How can we get the youth more involved in the political processes so they can help shape criminal justice reform through legislation?

I think, I think we. I think this is actually a great platform to start, right? Because I mean, like, the reality is our youth consume information different and they just need to know how it connects to their day to day lives. And I just don't think that politicians translate that well. And so for me, I always just encourage, like, artists to utilize their platforms and really talk about it, because that's who the kid's going to listen to. And you also have to show them how, when you don't vote, how it impacts the quality of your life. You know what I mean?

Yeah, I. I agree with what he said. I also want to point out this is probably the most engaged young people have been in my lifetime.

Yeah, I agree.

You know what I'm saying? I hear more people talking about politics in barbershops and. Well, they was only talking about wrestling, basketball, girls. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? So I think that it is slowly evolving. Get into a place where there's more participation. But I think the best way is to. For Mayor Bottoms, when it was kind of like it wasn't looking good, I basically told the truth about what the candidate she was going against, about what they were threatening, which was our culture. They want to close down the studios, they want to shut down the clubs, they want to stop giving away liquor licenses, they want to take away strip club licenses. So if you're a stripper, a dj, a promoter, a club owner, a valet parker, or a patron, that shit should mean something to you. And if that ain't gonna get your ass up and get you out to vote, then you don't deserve no motherfucking culture. That's, you know, that was.

I want to end on this question. This is from Lyle Turner. I think this is a good question because it wraps up a lot of what we discussing. Can tragedy be used to fuel a better tomorrow? Can tragedy be used to fuel a better tomorrow?

Yeah, I mean, I think so. I mean, we have great examples of that. You know, Malcolm X turned a tragic situation into becoming one of the most political, prolific intellectuals and human rights advocates that we've ever known. You know, and you think about many of the men and women who come through incarceration and they found they self at the bottom and they had to navigate that process. You know, some incredible things happen, you know, and for me, you know, writing a book, that's what that was about, right? Like, my legacy could have ended with me being convicted of murder and nothing more, right? And to be able to take that experience and turn it into something that prevents gun violence, that actually has people talking about trauma, informed care, that's helping people really understand what it means to deal with trauma, Post traumatic stress syndrome and all these disorders. And had that conversation. We've been able to kind of turn that thing around, right? It doesn't bring the person's life back, it doesn't restore them to their family, but it's also helping to prevent other young people from making those same type of decisions. And I think the more that we're talking about that part of it as well, it's helpful. Like, a lot of times, you know, we talk about celebrating the street culture, right? Like, I'm, you know, I get it. You know, you come from hustling. We had to do what we had to do. But there's also the full circle aspect of it, right, that we never quite get to. So we talk about the brothers who get caught up, go in, and then we stop there. You know, the tips point. Like, we don't hear about how many people are holding their guys down for the 30 years, but also how are them guys holding their friends down? Like, I know my guys write me and I'm having a tough day, and they like, yo, bro, like, we're depending on you. Like, that does something for me. It keeps me going, right? So really, if we can bring that full circle, that's how you turn that tragedy into triumph.

Tip.

Let me repeat the question. Can tragedy be used to fuel the.

Future, a better tomorrow?

Yes, sir.

Only if you put it in the right machine. You know, don't clap yet. You don't even know what the fuck?

I mean now.

Okay, but look. Okay, so I'll explain it. Fuel, okay? Fuel. It's an interesting thing because fuel can be used as a liquid that will propel you forward faster. Or fuel could be used, shit, to set something on fire. You dig what I'm saying? Okay, so let's say tragedy. We got a can of tragedy, this fuel right here, okay? If we were to pour this tragedy in a motorcycle we could pop Willis from here to the future. You dig what I'm saying? Whereas if we were to pour this shit on a treadmill I don't give a damn how fast we run. We going nowhere. So if the tragedy is being used, if it's being put in the right machine, if that fuel is put in the right machine, then, yes, it can. It can. It can fuel the future.

Absolutely.

Word. Listen, I hope y' all learned something today. Make some noise for Shaka. Make some noise for Tip. Shaka. You say your books. Your books is out there, right?

Yeah, the book is out there. Follow me on the gram. I'm out here signing books all day. Absolutely. My guy Tip said he buying 10.

A shock of books. So we.

We need 10. Y' all gotta match that.

Y' all go match tips. Tips by.