Shaka Senghor: Forgiveness, Breaking Free From Anger, & Confronting Childhood Trauma + More

What's up? It's Way up with Angela Yee. I'm here with my guy, Maino. And, of course, New York Times bestselling author Shaka Sangar is here with us. You have a new book, how to Be Free. So congratulations on that.

Thank you. Thank you. I'm super excited. Three and ten years is crazy.

That is amazing. By the way, on your list of goals, of things that you wanted to accomplish.

Absolutely.

You have definitely been checking those things off the list.

Yeah, Yeah. I mean, it's just one of the things. One of my core practices is like writing down what I want to manifest in my life and then executing against what I write down.

All right, so this book is a proven guide to escaping life's hidden prisons. And I saw. First of all, I want to say this. You did Joe Rogan's podcast? Yeah, I want to. How was that for you?

It was actually great. It was. Joe is really curious, and he creates space for, like, real storytelling and real conversations, and. And it was, like, one of the most relaxed experiences I had. I thought going in it'd be a little more intense, but literally, he was, like, super chill. And we vibed for, like, three hours, you know, so that was amazing.

Cause I remember you were doing it. So I searched, like, to see, and I saw that there were some people that, of course, there was some backlash. Cause I think about different audiences. Right. Hearing your story for the first time. Cause I feel like we know from when Oprah had you on We've heard Righting My Wrongs, the book that you did a few years ago where you tell your story. And I feel like, you know, Joe Rogan's fans may not have all been privy to hearing that and knowing about your experience and being familiar. I saw some people saying it was amazing. But then there's always this type of judgment that can come, too.

Yeah. I mean, you know, the people in the comments section, you know, it's kind of like, I think I wrote this new book for them because they're trapped in their own hidden prisons of being haters and judgmental. Like, the snap judgment. Right. So the comment section. I just told my wife and my sons, they have the comments section.

I say that all the time.

Is wild.

Right.

But, you know, the way that I look at it is, like, anytime that people are coming at me, I always think about what is their real hurt. Like, what's behind that?

Why would they be coming at somebody like you?

I mean, I think a lot of people get stuck in my old story. Right. So I Went to prison for 19 years, seven years of solitary confinement. And over the last 15 years, I've had an incredible amount of success. And so people don't think that when you've done made a poor decision that you're actually deserving of any type of success. Right.

And so, yeah, I don't mean to cut you off. So I'm feeling this, right? So I always say. Cause I did prison time myself, I did 10 years, four years solitary confinement. I feel like the way you start doesn't determine how you finish.

Come on, talk that talk.

Right? So is this the same thing we were talking about?

Absolutely, absolutely. But I think people want us to be stuck there because they're really stuck in their own kind of hidden prison.

I go through that. I go through that all the time with people, with guys that's caught up in things that I may have done and things that I may have been involved in years ago. And they caught it. They so caught up in that that they think that that's me.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I mean, you know, when you think about people, especially people that don't know you, right? And like, you know, we give. We have an opportunity, either we give people agency and access to our lives or. Or we deny them entry. And so when I know that people are kind of stuck in that old story is really more a reflection of them than it is me, because I've moved on with my life, you know what I'm saying? And like, when I left. When I left physical prison, it was like I was already free, like, mentally, you know what I mean? And so when I see those kind of moments where people are trapped, I'm like, that's their own narrative. That's why I say this book really.

Narrative?

Yeah. And that's why I say this book is really for people like that. It's like it gives them an opportunity to really look into their lives and say, okay, well, what's holding me back to where I want to hold another human being I don't even know back, you know what I'm saying?

Find fault in them. And then I always find that the people that do that the most are not in like the worst situations.

Like, that's their own directive. I do find that when people, like, come at you like that, it's because a lot of times that's like a self reflection on things about themselves that they're unhappy with. Or sometimes I think when people are in that space, they don't want anyone else to be thriving, you know, or see that in other People when I was reading this book, and then I watched the Young Thug interview that he did with Big Bank. Right. This is all happening, like, around the same time, because I got my copy of the book, and then that interview dropped. And I was thinking about Young Thug, talking about his early life and what shaped him into who he is today. And, like, a lot of experiences that he had to have, you know, as far as people close to him getting killed. And you talk about your brother's murder in this book, you know, as well, and the emotions that you went through after that. And I was just thinking there was a lot of things we didn't know about him and maybe things that he has not yet even figured out how he could heal from those things, too. And I saw that in a lot of times, we talk to people and we don't know their stories, like, what got them to where they are right now to make these types of decisions, you know?

Yeah. It's one of the reasons that I continue to write and continue to share stories, because I think that part is important. You know, we look at these artists and we formulate an opinion based on their art, not based on their real lives. And they're partially responsible for that as well, because what you communicate to the world can oftentimes dictate how people perceive you or grow to know who you are. And especially, you know, you think about Young Thug and all the things that's going on with these different allegations, the leaks from the phone. And you know what? I talk to young people. What I always say is just like, you know, you have to own your own narrative, otherwise the world will try to tell you who you are. And what I realized is that the reason so many don't own their own narrative, because they don't even recognize the way that these hidden prisons show up in their lives like trauma. So when I was writing about my brother, my brother was murdered in 2021. I come home. You know, I'm one of the resourceful ones in the family. I'm coming being responsible son, make this path as easy as possible for my stepmom, for my dad. And I was sitting there, and I was watching my mother go through this grieving process, and I started feeling this overwhelming sense of guilt. And so I couldn't even fully grieve for my brother, because what I realized in that moment, I made somebody else's mother feel like that. And so that was my hidden prison, was that I couldn't really grieve. And what I ended up doing is I ended up Writing a letter to the person responsible for murdering my brother. And through that process of just exercising that emotion, I started to kind of free myself up and develop this deep sense of gratitude for the experience I had with my brother. So that's how I kind of navigated. And that was the unlock for me was gratitude is how I navigated grief.

And, yeah, you know, people talk about forgiveness a lot because you wrote that letter, right? And sometimes people are like, how could you forgive somebody who did something like that? But you. I listened to you on Oprah, and you talked about the forgiveness that you received. And a lot of times we want forgiveness from people, and we appreciate that. But then when it's time for us to turn around and forgive somebody, that's a hard thing to do.

Absolutely. And I think one of the things is when you. When you say that you believe something, the universe is definitely going to test that belief. And in the book, one of the things that I talk about is I received a letter from the guy who shot me. You know, I got shot when I was 17 years old. This is three decades later, I get this letter. And my initial reaction wasn't the thoughtful person that believes in redemption. Like, I was triggered back to that moment of, like, oh, this is the guy. And one of the things that I didn't realize was that the thing that had me really angry was that I had never saw this guy's face. Like, our exchange was a quick little word exchange. And, you know, he shot multiple times, hit me three times. So for all these years, our subconscious had been carrying this kind of mystery person around, right? Like, I kind of knew the name. I knew some affiliations, but I didn't. I never saw his face. And so when I got the letter, he's in. He's in prison now. He's. He's been. He's actually been in prison. He was in prison, like. Like, after he shot me, he killed somebody. And so he ended up in prison, like, right before I ended up in prison. But we never was at the same prison. So when I got the letter, I'm like, I'm really respected in prison. It don't take much for me to just, like, I'm going to put $1,000 on your book. Take care, dude. Right. And what I realized in that moment was, like, this is the universe saying, what do you really believe about second chances? What do you really believe about forgiveness? And so I started actually to write him a letter back, and then I decided to actually write my mother, who I was in the process of Healing our relationship with. And I realized I didn't owe him a letter. I accepted the letter of forgiveness. I mean, apology. I accepted that. And for me, it's really like, forgiveness was. For me, it wasn't really about him. You know what I mean? And then so with my mom, that became more important. It was like, you know, how am I healing this relationship with the woman who gave birth to me? And how do we grow together? And what I learned from that is that forgiveness is very complex because I thought I had forgave my mother, you know? And then what I realized, I forgave her with conditions. I forgive you, but I need you to act this way.

Right. You want her to change what she had done that was hurtful to you. But when you forgive somebody, that doesn't mean they're gonna be a different person or the person that you want them to be.

Yeah. I mean, they could be worse. They can be better. I mean, my mom is.

Or the same.

Right. Or the same. Right. But it's really about, like, how do we shape it within ourselves? Right. And that's the hidden part of it, because sometimes we think that, oh, I forgave you, but then you do one thing that I dislike, and I take 15 steps back to you. Right?

Yeah.

One question. The guy that wrote you the letter that shot you, he was apologetic in his letter.

Yeah. Yeah. Because what happened is he came across my book. Another brother was reading one of my books in there, and he started reading the book, and he was like, oh, I exactly know this story. I'm the guy who pulled that trigger. I never knew. I wouldn't even have wrote his name even if I did, but I never knew the guy. I just talked about how that shaped how I thought about life. And so after I got shot, I just started carrying a gun every day. And then, you know, 14 months later, I shot somebody. Right. And so he got the book and he read, and he was like, oh, I want to apologize to this guy. You know? And I thought that was. I thought it was courageous of him not only to be in a state of maturity to think about, how do I apologize to somebody else? But, like, his safety could have potentially been compromised. And for him to do that, I was like, you know, I gotta respect that, if nothing else.

Yeah. It's not doing anything for him to have done that. And your mom, for 17 years, she didn't come and see you while you were locked up. What was her? And I hear a lot of times people feel like when they go to prison that they're forgotten about. People are moving on with their lives. And then when you come home, sometimes people feel like, well, I'm home now. This person didn't look out for me. I don't feel no responsibility to all the people who forgot about me while I was locked up.

Yeah, I mean, I used to feel like that, you know, the early parts of my incarceration, I was very angry at my family. I was very disappointed. I felt abandoned by my friends. You know, it's one of the things I tell the young guys when they're out on the streets. Like, it's all good until them handcuffs go on. And I can guarantee you, within 60 days, almost everybody's gone. Right. And you may be lucky to have a grandma or aunt or, you know, pops. Like, my dad kind of rolled out the whole 19 years.

That's good. Emano had a lot of women.

You lucky if you got anybody you fortunate, as opposed to all the women that were coming to see him. I was very fortunate.

But that's different from, like, the guys you grew up on a block with.

The people that you think are your family.

Yeah, I had people step in that you wouldn't even thought they would have been the ones. But the people who you think will be there, they're the first ones to slide off, you know? And so with my mom, when she finally did come to see me, some of it was just, like, very logistical. I was. A lot of times I was locked far away. You know what I mean?

That's always the issue.

Yeah, yeah. She's like, I don't drive on the highway by myself. And, you know, so it was all those things. But for me, I was like, I don't. I didn't want to come home. Like I talk about in the book is that I was. I was incarcerated before I ever went to prison, because mentally, I had bought into this idea that my life can only have two outcomes. You're going to be dead in jail before you 21. That's right. And so I lived based on that narrative. But I was free way before I got. I was free before I even knew if I was ever getting out of prison. Because I had unlocked something in my mind that was like, no matter what the circumstances are, here's the kind of man I'm gonna be. Here's the kind of person that I'm gonna be, even within this environment, whether I get out or not. And so part of that was I had to free myself from this anger, you know, Like, I. You know, people see my story now and it's like, oh, this must have been like a model prisoner. I'm like, I was wilding it in the first eight years. I'm like, 36 misconducts, new case, seven years in solitary confinement. But when I got to that place where I was like, you know, I want to produce different outcomes. Anger, giving up that anger was one of them. And in order to give that up, I had to look at who am I all angry at? You know, how did you do that?

Because I say things like, not giving a fuck is freedom, meaning caring less of what people think of you, not worrying about the opinions of others. That's freedom, right? Living your ultimate, you know who you are, no matter what that looks like, no matter what that looks like to other people. That's freedom. So how did you get away from. From the anger?

Yeah, for me, it was like recognizing. So I had this idea that I was like, you know, the kid who wasn't angry, right. Cause all my friends, moms be like, oh, you're so manable. You're so thoughtful.

Right.

Well, they didn't never saw the other side, you know what I'm saying? And so I had kind of bought into the idea that I only get active when somebody has done something offensive, right? But in reality, I realized that I had hurt a lot of people, you know what I mean? And that I was really this angry kid. And what happened was I started journaling. And it's what I call active journaling, right? And I really talk about it in the book because sometimes people are like, oh, you just write a thing down. It's like, no, you write it down so you can be clear about it. But then what are the action steps you're going to take to heal from it? And for me, I would write when I was in solitary, whenever I would, like, find myself, like, really, really angry. Like, my neighbor blew the power out one time. I'm literally writing my journal. Like, yo, when I get out, I'm. I'm a shank dog, blah, blah. You know what I mean? But then I would go back and read it because that was the active part. Like, don't just write it, but go back and read it when you're not angry. And I was reading it one day, and I was like, this sounds like a madman. This is not how I see myself, but this is really who I've become, right? And so I knew, like, if I wanted to be a different person, I had to heal that person. And I had to get down to the roots of, like, you know, who I thought I was to who I actually was. And that was a game changer, you know what I mean? And so I started. I still have all my journals from prison. I still journal now.

That really helps you.

Yeah. Going back and reading. Going back and reading. Absolutely.

The thoughts are like, this. Got some.

Seriously, like what? Like in this book, you also talk about another incident that really shaped you as a kid. The neighbor cm.

Yeah.

And I know certain names, you know, you're not gonna give to.

Absolutely.

Yeah. But this was a neighbor. You guys would go over there, all the kids, watch the kung fu flicks, you know, have a good time. This particular time, you guys were. They said, some of the kids can come and stay the night. And he attempted to molest you.

Yeah.

And that was something that you did not tell your parents. And it's. You know, I think that that is a hard thing. Cause you feel like, did I do something wrong? And that happens. Right. And you also feel like. I've heard children say this too. They don't want to endanger their parents. Also, by then, the parents go over there, they get into a fight. Who knows what can happen? I've heard people say that things have happened and that's why they didn't tell their parents. But then you went on to attempt to break into his home, and that was kind of your revenge. But nobody knew what had happened to you, and it took you a long time to even be able to reveal that. But we don't know sometimes, like, what children are dealing with and going through.

Yeah, absolutely. It's one of the reasons that I'm super sensitive when it comes to mentoring young people. And, you know, you see these kids who have been labeled as acting out. And because of my own experiences, I know that none of these things are without cause. And so in the case of cm, you know, this was a trusted family friend. And, you know, this guy attempted to molest me. And, you know, as a result of that, I literally broke into his house. And like, in my mind, I'm like, we're gonna steal all this stuff. We're gonna destroy it. And I ended up getting caught. And when I got caught, you know, my parents was like, we didn't raise you like this, and why would you do this? And so they were really upset. But the thing is, they had never created space for us to tell the full truth.

Right.

And so as a kid, you have something that. That violation of trust, and you internalize that. And it's one of the things, like when I. When I talk about why I wrote this book. I've met so many people who have internalized the behaviors of others. Whether it's childhood trauma, whether it's assault, whether it's violence, you take on that identity. That's where negative self talk comes from. And so when my parents, like, they punished me for the behavior, I internalized that even more of like, well, maybe I did something wrong or maybe it was my fault. And so for years, I was angry with them. And, you know, then there was a shame attached to that. Right. I had got arrested in front of our whole block. You know, they knew you. Yeah. Like, they literally was like, what is you doing? Yeah. So now you got that embarrassment. And it's one of the things that, you know, for me, when I got to a space where I talked to my parents, this was like. I mean, this wasn't that long. It was like three years ago. I was, like, 50 years old when I called my dad, and I was like, hey, I just want to talk to you about something that I realized I was still carrying this anger about that they never understood my why and they never even questioned it. And I'm like, if you know your kid to be good otherwise, and they do something that's so out for sight of who you know them to be, like, you got to be patient and interrogate that. You know what I mean? Because otherwise, it kind of imprisons them in the shame. And that's what happened to me. But when I. When I talked to my parents, it was. It was amazing, you know, that they were both present and willing to go on that journey. And especially, like, with my dad, like, that has to be hard as a father. It's like you're trusting your child in the care of another man who you respect.

Right.

And then this guy attempts to take advantage of your child.

You know, I just thank God that you were able to get out of that situation.

I mean, I attribute that to, like, my siblings, like, being. Having older siblings, you kind of become a little bit more savvy about life than if you're trying to figure it out on your own, you know? And so anytime I felt like I was in some type of danger, I had kind of examples from my siblings and. How to move. Yeah. How to move. Yeah. But I think about all the kids who probably didn't. That didn't.

A lot. It's a lot. It's a lot. It's a lot. It's a lot. I'm working on a book, and I've been working on this book for a while. It's almost ready. I've been talking about it for a while now and it kind of reminds me of what you got going on and what you're doing. The name of my book is called the Art of Freedom. Right. And it's, it to me, it's like my philosophy in my game and how I feel about what it takes to stay out of prison. So it's like for people that either just got out of jail or was about to. Right. So you know, they got all those pre release programs and stuff like that. You know, here's a book. Not big, but just something that could, you know, you read a chapter a day or something like that, like daily meditations or something like that. And just to help give you some game on how to stay, you know, mentally, you know, prepared for all of the things that you got to deal with. You know, I like what you did you, you doing because that's something that. I don't think I included that in the book. Right. About the mental prisons, about some of the things that kind of hold us back because you can be free physically but yet still trapped in this, in this, this, this, this world where you just locked in.

Absolutely. Yeah. That's, that's one of the things. When I wrote this book, I was super intentional about making it accessible to people who've never been incarcerated. And actually that's more of my audience because I've worked in tech. You know, I've been an investor in tech, I've worked in entertainment, I've produced, I've done all type of stuff. And I've seen people out here who have never stepped foot in a jail that are way more incarcerated. Like, I mean, imposter syndrome syndrome.

What is that?

Yeah, that's when you showing up in the space and you're not being your.

Authentic self and you feel like you don't belong there.

You don't feel like you don't belong. Right.

How about the guy that continuously wants to be something that he know he's not?

Oh, he's a, he's a fake friend.

Is that imposter.

Fake it till you make that is it is a form of imposter.

Why you wearing this fake shit, boy? Take that shit off. What's wrong with you?

That's just a fraud.

Imposter syndrome is when you really do deserve to be somewhere and you feel like you don't absolutely, you know, you feel like even though you can have all of the accolades and the knowledge and you go in a room and, and you know, it's Interesting to me. Cause even your friendship with. And you talk about this. And Ben Horowitz called in when you were on with Oprah.

Yeah, that's my guy. Yeah.

And the story even of how you guys met, but it was. You know, I even was like, man, when Oprah introduced you and then you guys were gonna have dinner, and they were like, ooh, this guy did this. Let's not have him at the house.

Yeah.

I felt like. I don't know. It bothered me.

Yeah.

You know what I'm saying? And I know that's your brother and that things have come around. And it's so interesting to me to see how people can have this perception of somebody who they'll be like, well, he murdered someone. He went to jail for. To prison for 19 years. I don't know if we should have him.

I mean, that's not unreasonable, though, right?

I understand that, and it's not unreasonable.

But from up. From our culture, we're like, oh, that's. You know what I mean? Because we have proximity to it quite often. Right. And there's different when you don't have proximity to it and you're coming from. Because I think about this all the time. Like, when you come from a different space and you don't have proximity to someone like me, I can imagine it's not the easiest thing to be like, come to my home.

Donald Trump has done some awful things and been convicted of them, and he's our president. You know what I'm saying? But I will say, when I said that, I also was just thinking about it in the context of. I thought about Michael Rubin. Right. And how he didn't understand, like, how somebody could be falsely imprisoned until Meek Mill situation, and seeing how probation can really just keep you, like, locked in forever. Cycle, forever, cycle.

And that's what he's saying about the thoughts of the.

Exactly.

Coming from such a. Such a. Such a place of privilege and this. Totally oblivious to this type of lifestyle in this world.

Absolutely.

For us that we hear some.

Oh, he caught a body word, right?

Yeah. When you come to dinner, that's your people.

Right?

When she said. When she said he did nine years in solitary, I said, well, he was getting busy.

He was getting busy. Yeah. You understand?

I mean, listen, do you feel like.

Now it's been a lot more people, like. Because I do feel like this whole movement now, you know, we see so many different organizations that are talking about, like, the prison system, and there's been a lot more stories of people who have been unfairly targeted when you see the disparities between who's getting representation, who's getting the longer sentences, who's going to prison, and it's something that has been a lot more awareness about it. Do you feel like now, since when you first came home, it's been a lot more like acceptance and also people just feeling like, wow, that's your story. We need to do something together. I feel like it didn't used to be like that.

No, I mean, we've done a lot of work, you know, like, outside of the work that I've done more recently, which has been more focused on business, entrepreneurship. Early part of my career was literally working on changing policies, including helping Meek Mills get out. So I work with Cup 50, I work with Reform Alliance. Jessica Van those, like, we was in the trenches, we were like, we're gonna cut the prison system in half by 50%. And so that work, that storytelling that we did, we really brought people proximate to, like, what does transformation look like? And so you think about Topeka, you think about Wallo, you think about those of us who've actually put ourselves out in the most vulnerable way. Right? I think out of everybody, I probably had a more serious case, so I'm constantly getting that scrutiny. But it's the thing, like, even when I think about. Even though this is not what this book is about, what I realized is that we had to help people break through their own interpretation of who they think is in prison.

Right.

You know, because it's easy to just have those judgments. But then you started to meet Chef Jeff and you realize this guy, he's an executive chef, but he was also incarcerated and taught himself how to cook in the kitchen. And so being able to share those stories, like, that's what really kind of shifted the narrative. And now, you know, but there's a. There's a downside to that, too, because not everybody who comes out of prison is going to be Shaka or Wallo or Mayno or Topeka. Right? Because you gotta. You have to separate our talent from our actual background. You know what I mean? Like, I'm actually really talented while I'm on book three. Not because I was in prison, you know what I mean?

But the prison doesn't give you.

Right? Yeah. Like, Topeka's really talented. She just happened to have been in prison. Wallow's really talented. It just happened to be in prison. And so we have to really separate that part, because everybody think the next person coming out is going to be the next so and so. And it's like, I've been writing for 25 years.

Right.

You know, I wrote my first journal 25 years ago when I was transforming my life. So all of this, this is like the hard earned wisdom. This is like, this isn't like recent. This is like, hey, for 25 years, I've been on this journey. Here's what I learned from prison, here's what I've learned from entrepreneurship, here's what I learned from investing, and here's what I've learned in corporate. And everybody has a hidden prison, but every prison has a door, right?

You know, this writing, I think the talent that you have with that. Now, there's one part of the book where you talk about writing a letter to the warden.

Yeah.

Which I was like, who would even think to do such a thing? But you wanted to see if you could get out of solitary. But you also wanted to say, look, I did everything I said I was gonna do, and those were the bad things, you know? But now I'm saying instead of the negative things that I wanna do, I want you to believe that I'm gonna be able to do these positive things. He said, you said, if truth is what matters most. In our dialogue, I encourage you to reflect on what I'm about to propose to. Should you, on the off chance, allow me to reenter general population. I give you my word that for the remainder of my incarceration, I will dedicate myself solely to nurturing my writing talent and mentoring the young guys on the yard. Gifts I discovered in this place and wish to share with prisoners and then the world. That's amazing.

Did that work?

Yeah, absolutely, that worked. It was the only time the war. It was the only time the war never really.

Because when I was reading, I said, yeah, they not letting me.

That worked. But here's the thing. I was reading all this philosophy, right? And I was like, okay, if the truth is what what matter. Like, I told you when I came to prison, I'm never following the rules. Here's the proof of that. I got 35 misconducts. Only thing that matter is, am I a man of my word. Clearly, I'm a man of my word. So if you believe me in the negative, can you believe me in a positive?

Positive. And you should be able to.

Yeah, he said, I thought to myself, this philosophical shit really works.

He advocated for me to get out.

You had nine in there already.

Yeah. So at that time, I had. I had been in solitary about two and a half, and I had been in prison about ten and a half. But it still took some time for me to get out. But he advocated for me for the next couple of years.

That's amazing.

Yeah, yeah. And then I got out. I was a man of my word. I literally focused on writing. I wrote a total of six books before I got out of prison. I started off writing fiction and I mentored the young men on the block. Like a lot of those guys. They even look up to me to this day. And I go back and sat, I was like, rikers island yesterday. I cooked, I kicked the book tour. Yeah, we kicked the book tour off.

And you're donating books for the prisons.

So we've donated books to 1300 prisons, which comes around to almost a million people who are incarcerated. And so they got the book before the rest of the world because their life is a metaphor. And I wanted to make sure that people are incarcerated.

Yeah, you better sign the. Shaka's publishing company. But even look, even when Shaka came home and, you know, had the book, he had to push those books himself on the streets.

Yeah, I was really out the trunk with it.

Yeah.

Build it up.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I started off hustling books all around Detroit. Parks, gentlemen clubs. You name it, I was there. And eventually.

Gentlemen clubs.

Yeah.

I used to be. I used to be there every Saturday.

Us starlets partying. You could have been.

I used to go to day two, day seven, Detroiters, the whole vibe. Give me some lamb chops and slang some books.

That's damn lamb chops.

Yeah, yeah. But that was the path. And eventually one of those books made it to Oprah. And that was a game changer.

You never know what can happen, boy, let me tell you. That's why you gotta do it. Just like Shaka said, he'll set down the intention and you just gotta finish it.

Yeah. Cause I wrote. I literally wrote that down. So all the things I live now because I really want people to understand this about. What makes this book so amazing to me is that I'm not just pulling stories from out of the thin air and saying, hey, you seen what LeBron did? You can do it too. I don't know what that's like. I'm not a 40 year old hooper with a 20 year history. Right. What I do know is that the things that I said I was going to do when I got out, I wrote those things down. I practice mindfulness, I practice meditation. And I practice it in a way that requires a level of activation. Like you can't just write something down and forget it. Right?

Right.

I'M in solitary. I write my first book. I asked the guys on the cell block, you want to read this book? A guy was like, yo, this ain't Oprah.

I have that right here. Yes. I think that is so ironic. You said, does anyone read this book? I just wrote, someone down. The tear responded back, don't nobody want to read that shit. This ain't Oprah. And look at that. Next thing you know, you said, I'm gonna write something worthy of Oprah. Absolutely herself. Taking the time out to read it. Who would have ever thunk it?

Yeah. I mean, I was in solitary, so I couldn't get active. So I'm like, okay, what can I do? And I'm like, okay. Well, actually, this guy just gave me a goal. Like, I want to write. I don't want to just be a good writer for someone who's been in prison. I want to be one of the best in the world. And what's the better measurement is if overread it, you rise to that level. And so now she's on book number three, which to tell you a lot about, I got Joe Rogan over here and Oprah over here. So, wow, Testament to the writing. I got my peeps, Angela.

Now, listen, you talk about the keys to releasing anger, right? Write down your anger, identify primary emotion, create a counter mantra, and then meditate to release anger. So, no, just thinking about working through that. Because what I love is at the end of each chapter, you are giving people, you know, just really, like, the tools to dig deeper. You call it digging deeper?

Absolutely. Yeah. And what I love about the digging deeper chapters, if you notice, there's, like, a little door at the top. And the door is because I wanted people to know that you can access this anytime you can come in and out, because that's life, right? Sometimes you're going to get it right, and sometimes you're going to take a little step back. And it's like, once you take that step back, just know that you can go back to these tools, and it'll help release you from that hidden prison.

Now, another thing that was really impactful in your life was marriage. And we see Liz in here, too. You didn't change her name in the book. You didn't have to. Now, one thing you were gifted was mirrors, right? And the elder who gifted the mirror said to you, in marriage, you become a mirror to your partner. What you reflect is what you will receive in return. If you reflect love, patience, or understanding, you will get that back. But if you reflect anger, resentment, or indifference, that too will come back to you. A happy marriage is built not just on love, but on the reflections you choose to create every day. And you talk about love being an active choice.

Yeah, absolutely. And it's in this marital love, but it's also self love, and it's also relational love and friendship. And all those things are like, really the primary drivers in life to me personally is like, how am I showing up in love? How am I showing up in love with my wife? How am I showing up in love as a father? How am I showing up in love as a friend? And it all comes back to self love because that's what eradicates self doubt, negative self talk. And when you're, when you're in relation with anybody, like, you're only going to get out of it what you put into it. Right. And it doesn't mean it's like, perfect. Like, sometimes that mirror is dirty and dusty and scraped up and you gotta clean it off and you gotta get back to like, okay, why did we show up in each other's life in the first place? And I'm fortunate and lucky to have a brilliant, beautiful wife. And that makes me happy. It's like, dope, man.

I just am blown away by all the work that you've been doing. Every single.

It's really dope.

You know, I've read three of your books at this point.

Yeah.

You know, the letters to your sons also, which was amazing for us to be able to read. You know, Mayna, you have a son, you have a daughter.

That's right.

Do you ever write? Like, when is the last time you've written anything? Cause I do think that writing is a really purposeful, different type of practice.

You mean like writing letters to them? Yeah, no, never. Other than texts.

Isn't that crazy that text messages makes it like, so when's the last time somebody wrote you something, like, physically?

But it's all writing, though. Like, I mean, like, even I wrote. I wrote a great percentage of this book, like, literally in my notes. Like, I'll be up late at night or I'm taking a shower. Yeah. And I'll have, like, a thought of, like, you know, stories. I'll just put it in my notes. And like, and I, you know, I try to encourage the young people I mentor about the craft. Right. Because there, there is the craft of writing, then there's storytelling. But I think all of it, all of it matters, you know, that's, that's. I outline that in the book. Like, use whatever tools you have. At your disposal to get those stories out so you can talk to children. Yeah, I do that too. I do it all. I'll be like, yo, because, you know, sometimes you're moving and. And life is happening, and you don't want to come miss the energy of that moment. So get a chance to share all these truths in a variety of ways.

What are some of the things that have happened since you've been writing? Even from, you know, when you first came home and righting your wrongs came out? But what are some things that people have said to you in ways that you've affected their lives that have touched you?

You know what's really amazing and truly the greatest honor that I've ever received is the consistency of feedback from people who read my work. You know, every day, like literally every day for probably the last 10 years, I get a message, text message, DM. I get something from somebody saying, hey, this really helped me. And, you know, when I was writing this book, I have, like, my friends, so I'm like, yo, can you read this for me? Can you just let me know? Is it resonating? And that hidden prison piece has been really opening people up. And I mean, I've got friends from all walks of life who are like, hey, I was trying to work through something deep in my life. And like, like, Joy, that's been. The brothers in my life, they've been, like, on fire about that chapter because they're like, we don't even talk about how do we as men access joy, you know, and so that. That consistent feedback has been incredible. It's been over 10 years. I always get something positive from. From all of my different writers, even sometimes stuff I've written just online, you know, and so that's the. That's the greatest, you know, part of all of this journey is like, I'm a writer's writer. And so to have people, you know, moved by my words, that. That means everything to me.

All right, well, I love it. And, you know, lastly, I want to end with this part. You said, the one thing I refuse to do is get stuck in a loop of negat negativity. The moment a negative thought surfaced, I counted it with positive affirmations. These are, like, real things, you know, that we can do. You said, I meditated on gratitude, grounding myself in the blessings I already had rather than the challenges I faced. It's all about a commitment to shifting my mindset. It wasn't just about pushing through. It was about creating a foundation of self belief that allowed me to see possibilities instead of obstacles and to keep moving forward with hope and purpose.

Absolutely.

And I think that's impactful. There's things that I still struggle with myself to these days. I think everybody struggles with forgiveness.

Yeah. So would you think that's like, one of your bigger hidden prisons that forgiveness be.

So I think that it's hard to say. There's people that have been, like, so awful that I just never even want to deal with them and forget that they exist. And so I'm not a vengeful person. I'm more of a you don't exist to me at all anymore type of person.

But if you still entertain the pain that they cause, they do exist to you. And so real forgiveness is about how do you release that and free that?

Because we're not gonna sit down and be cool. Like you said, we don't gotta kick it.

Right.

But.

But if you release it, you. You're having a whole different free experience.

It's like pretending it didn't exist, releasing.

It, but it's not pretending. Because if you pretend, they always come back. They always don't come back to you.

Basically letting it go.

It's really just deciding that, hey, you can no longer occupy this space in my life and that I'm going to walk out of this door to the freest version of myself because I've given up all anger, animosity, attachment to this old thing that no longer exists.

You know what I tell people when it's like a situation? Because, you know, sometimes your friends will have a tendency to, like, send you stuff about a person. Like, you're like, oh, my God, I cannot stand this person. I don't even want to think about it. But they'll send you like, you see this? Oh, they said this, they said that. And I'm like, just don't even mention that person to me. Like, just erasing, like, eternal. You seen Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind?

Yeah.

Is it like erasing it out of my brain? That helps.

Yeah. I mean, that's part of what giving it up is, right. As you stop entertaining the old story. But you also have to create real boundaries with the people in your life who can continue to bring that energy.

I'd be like, don't even send that.

Don't mention their name. It doesn't exist. I moved on. You know, let's keep it going. But definitely practices in here that, like you said, this doesn't have to be just for people who were just as impacted, but also for somebody like myself who was Trying to get out of.

My own free your mind out of those mental shackles.

Athletes, executives, entrepreneurs, everyday people who are just trying to live the freest version themselves. That's really who this book is for.

And I'm really hoping this is going to help me know. I am praying.

But the first step, when you already. You already started the first step by reading it and now you get a chance to share it.

May know you are going to.

I got another copy.

You can have this one. All right. Well, Shaka, thank you so much for joining us.

Really appreciate you having me.

And I know you're all over on tour so people can check you out, right?

Pull up on me. Detroit, I'm coming. Atlanta, all over la, you name it, I'm there. So I'm super excited, to be honest.

I gotta pull up somewhere because.

Detroit. Detroit, that's right. Come to come pull up in Detroit.

I know, I'm not gonna. I wanted to come, but I can't because I'll be traveling when you're in Detroit. But I was.

We'll figure it out.

We're gonna figure it out. Please.

And we're gonna relaunch probably at the top of the year too. So we're going in. Like, this work is so important to me and I really want as many people in the world to have access to it as possible. So I'm gonna do a second tour just to make sure that I'm touching the people and really sharing these truths in this book. So.

All right, come back and see us. Let's see what you already know.

I'm back.

What type of meditation Mayno's been doing? Stop. It's way up.